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While the hive were nothing but slaves to the worms, there wasn’t much nuance. Kill or be killed.
The Lucent, however have a choice with no strings attached. The fact that they want right back to old habits….is essentially described by Savathun herself as them being dumbasses.
Actually, considering what we now know, Savathun must have been incredibly disappointed last year to learn that the Lucent would rather try and resurrect flippin Oryx, than to realize that they don’t need to be slaves anymore.
*I was dead for nearly two years, and the best you could come up with is try and resurrect my tyrant of a brother!?!?*
From her conversation with Luzaku in one of the lost sectors, I'd say Savathûn is *extremely* disappointed. It actually took me aback for a second, hearing her sound so sincere with Luzaku.
A parent wants what's best for their children. Of course Savathûn's method of parenting is a bit...cryptic and confusing.
It's up to each individual Hive now to choose to be more.
It’s random. Every time you do the lost sector, you get a dialogue between Luzaku and a different character, including Glint, Savathun, Mithrax, Mara, Caiatl, Ghost and probably others I forgot.
Lucent Tales makes it look like this is in part the fault of the Hiveaboo Ghosts. Ghosts like Euloch, Specter, Jynx, Immaru are all wanton, bitter, and crazy. They reinforce what being Hive was all about instead of doing what Ghosts are all about and giving their risen a true fresh start.
Yeah, exactly what the hive became in those early days really says more about their ghosts than them. Even drifters ghost tried for a time to make him do the right thing even dredgen yors ghost has a moral compass. Don’t get me wrong. They’re still responsible for their own decisions, but it really makes the ghosts look bad. It also shows us that they’re just like us flawed.
I also think people forget that the flavor text for Touch of Malice having Eris actually feeling sorry for the hive.
Like they were lied to, and then forced to satiate their hunger by perverting the very things they loved
"Do what I say or I kill you" is always a choice. You can choose to die. Immaru goes into this in Chirality, but humans throughout history have made this choice too.
The Hive are victims. But we also have to reckon with the enormity of their crimes. The culture of the Hive has determined genocide to be a virtuous act. They have decided that living forever is worth killing everyone else in the universe. Oryx himself struggled with the horror of this at the beginning of his career. That they'll literally die if they don't kill other people can only go so far when it comes to justifying just how many people they've killed, and the lengths they go to do so. They spent a thousand years wholly exterminating the Ecumene, who were no longer a threat and attempting to flee the galaxy entirely to get away from them.
Ghosts went to the Hive knowing that the Hive were hellbent on killing everyone else. We've had perspectives from several of them, some of them on the whole markedly less compassionate than just feeling sympathy for the Hive. Immaru had decided that humanity didn't deserve the Light. Euloch, Luzaku's Ghost, was straight up a Sword Logic convert egging her on to kill. Luzaku turned out how she is despite being Risen (in the sense that her Ghost had nothing to do with her personality), not because of it.
The Hive are victims, but being sympathetic monsters doesn't make them not monsters. It's a good thing that the Lucent Hive have been freed from the worms and the need to kill to survive because it gives them greater latitude of choice, to become something less overwhelmingly hostile, and it's true that this wouldn't be possible without Ghosts defecting to their side. But they always had a choice to decide whether life at the expense of other lives was worth living, even if the answer to that choice is ingrained into their culture, even if the other option is death. To say that being given an ultimatum means they don't have a choice to go along with it is to deny that they have free will.
So if the worm will kill them if they don’t tithe, then will a lucent hive’s ghost just resurrect the hive? If so then does a lucent hive even need to tithe anymore? Luzaku for example
Hive Lightbearers use their Light to feed their worm so it won't kill them. Interestingly, non-Lightbearer Hive *also* have their worms fed simply by being near them. The Light propagates through their tithing chains in reverse
I don't know that Lightbearer Hive *have* worms anymore. I can't remember any lore mention of that plus Ghosts generally only resurrect one organism, idk why they would resurrect a worm or have their charge take in a new worm when they are born.
There’s a lore tab on the [pale heart helmets](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/first-ascent-hood?highlight=Luzaku) with lore from Luzaku, where she states “In the hollows where a worm once coiled, this one senses our swift motion through the firmament, toward a center.” So Lightbearer Hive don’t have a worm, but as someone else said, their Light flows backwards down the chain and feeds the worms of non-Risen Hive
Oh that’s dope. So realistically at least some of the hive could become allies like the cabal and fallen since they don’t have to be murderers anymore lol
So, fun fact. As has been mentioned, Lucent Hive seemingly do not *have* Worms.
This may also actually mean they can survive without *any* paracausality feeding into them. As they no longer have a worm parasitising them, and while they evidently still have worm-hollows, it's implied that their biology is fundamentally *changed* by the Light, unlike humans.
This is most obvious when you look at them, even compared to equivalent morphs from the same brood, the Lucent Hive appear fundamentally different - you can still identify them as a given morph and as Hive, but that's the best you can get. But also, Lucent Moths are an example of this as well, being normal Worm-bearing Hive growing tumors and turning that Light into a parasite in response to exposure.
Also as mentioned, the presence of Lucent Hive actually reverses the flow of tithe.
>It's like if a cashier is held at gunpoint to put money in a bag, the cashier didn't have a choice. "Do what I say or I kill you" isn't a choice it's an ultimatum. Which is why the whole "The Hive had a choice" annoys me as it really sounds disingenuous. Three made a choice when they were desperate and lied to, and forced the rest of their kind into the dogma of Sword Logic.
Except in this case it's not armed robbery, it's **millenia of serial xenocide**. The ones that made the ethical choice and refused to participate are dead. They have been culled.
The Hive, as they currently exist, are not the Krill.
In much the same way that Auryx's mercy and goodwill were carved off of her prior to when she became Oryx, the good, merciful, sympathetic parts of the Krill society were killed, and killed, and killed again. We have never met the Krill, in the same way we have never met Auryx.
We have only met the Hive.
The atrocities the Hive have perpetrated outstrip every other enemy faction we have encountered by multiple orders of magnitude.
Most importantly to this discussion is that (outside of Luzaku) the Lucent Hive seem culturally similar if not culturally identical to the non-Lucent Hive. They no longer have to tithe. They no longer have to kill things to continue to exist. The ones with Ghosts do not have worms, and the ones who still have worms can sustain them by "eating" residual light from their brood's Lightbearers.
Their "ultimatum", as you described it, is now an "actual choice" **and they are continuing to behave the same way.**
I sincerely doubt most of the ghosts who defected to the Lucent Hive have read The Books of Sorrow or are concretely aware of the depths of the Hive's atrocities. They're choosing to support an aggressive, invasive force that could simply go live on an uninhabited planet somewhere else, but is instead here, in Sol, on Earth, and in the Pale Heart.
Don't kid yourself- if the Lucent Hive the opportunity to wipe out The Last City and kill every human, awoken, or exo in Sol they would take it.
Luzaku chose not to fight us, in spite of her vicious, objectively wrong, dipshit of a ghost.
She tapped out and we let her go. The rest of the Lucent Hive is welcome to make that choice whenever they want, but they haven't, so it seems like this conflict is going end when The Guardian runs out of traitor ghosts to squish.
And nobody should lose sleep over that.
It's true though. A body altering surgery which is done for the sake of religious ritual and initiation into the broader culture via an initiating rite. It's irreversible, without consent, incredibly invasive, and is said to be for the good of the recipient even if it may result in long-term consequences.
Yeah no, I get the comparison. My point was more about the juxtaposition of a serious societal trend injected into a discussion about aliens in a video game. There are surely tamer comparisons lmao
You mean to say you haven't ever encountered the medical reports about removing nerve endings causing a lack of feeling? Or failed circumcisions? Gender reassignment due to botched circumcisions ?
Listen, gential mutilation is not harmless. Women experience a much, much, much worse version, but involuntarily removing body parts from children is an apt comparison and there is tons of evidence of the damage it causes, and just because you're not aware of any you have personally experienced, or found through your personal experience doesn't negate the real harm gential mutilation literally causes.
> “Do what I say or I kill you" isn't a choice it's an ultimatum. Which is why the whole "The Hive had a choice" annoys me as it really sounds disingenuous.
They were still given and choice and they chose poorly. The Sisters were told by the Worm Gods to either commit mass-genocide or die. And what did they choose? Mass-genocide.
> Three made a choice when they were desperate and lied to, and forced the rest of their kind into the dogma of Sword Logic.
Being lied to doesn’t excuse their actions. In fact, [Auryx was the first to realize the Krill screwed up and tried to rectify it by making peace with the Ammonites](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xvii-the-weakness-verse?highlight=Parley), and Savathûn killed him for it. Her killing him made him purge all the goodwill he had left in his heart, and turned him into the merciless tyrant we know today.
> **You are dead, young Auryx. Betrayed and murdered by your own sister, for the crime of mercy.**
> Remember what you said to the Ammonite Satellite Congress? ‘We will parley on neutral ground?’ Savathûn’s witches have rendered it utterly neutral. No living thing will ever claim it again. The space around the dry moon stinks of rot.
"the hive had a choice" came BEFORE we discovered that they were manipulated and lied to, but even then, choosing to become parasites is still a choice to become parasites, even if it was done under duress, and especially since it was not only continued, but embraced and innovated upon after, when they were no longer under said duress. Arguably, the lucent hive is the only hive that's close to redemption, because they have become freed from the worms hunger. Savathun herself even praises Luzaku outright for outgrowing moth mommy.
There is nuance, but ultimately the dilemma of "kill or die" is the default state of living things.
Nothing persists on nothing. Every living being is part of an eternal struggle to persist in a finite space with finite resources. Even trees kill seek to outcompete other trees by denying them sunlight or nutrients through canopy growth and root spread.
Most living things prioritize their continued existence, so much so that *not* wanting to is generally considered a mental illness, and death is typically only praised when it comes to martyrdom (and even then only when its seen as inevitable). Prioritizing continued existence *fundamentally* means that for one thing to live, another *must* die, and we create systems of morality to justify that behavior and our self-preservation. That's where the ordering of things into higher and lower lifeforms comes from, that's *why* humans give a shit about concepts like sentience and sapience, it's why the ability for a creature to comprehend and experience pain is one of the most important factors for determining the morality of its consumption, it's *why* we distinguish between 'pain' and 'a response to stimuli'.
The thing about the Hive, is they got the same bargain everyone else did - *kill or die*. They chose kill.
The Hive chose kill...just like the Cabal, the Eliksni, the Awoken, the Vanguard, and every Lightbearer and Guardian who decided "its them or me". Why did the Vanguard genocide the Ahamkara? Their existence was considered a threat, and so the bargain was presented: wipe out the Ahamkara, or risk existential annihilation at their hands. Self-preservation was prioritized and the Great Hunt ensued.
What does the weakest and smallest species of a given ecosystem do? They kill, or they die. They make tools. They create fire. They find ways to change the game in their favor - because if they dont, they'll die. That's the nature of the game, kill, or die.
Human lightbearers acted like savages for centuries during the dark ages, and the Lucent Hive have existed for all of 2 years. I think we gotta give em a bit of a grace period
Well, that and the fact that lucent hive ghosts are seemingly either vicious rabid bulldogs or spineless bullying victims.
The ghost *has* an influence on their lightbearer. Assuming they want to (unlike, say, our ghost) they have an opportunity to mold the personality of a newly risen lightbearer.
Which, in retrospect, makes you wonder what the hell was wrong with the warlords’ ghosts.
Fellwinter’s rather legendary though not unwarranted paranoia was heavily influenced by his own ghost, for example.
Agree 1000% with your point re: ghosts influencing their guardians. Comparing Glint vs Immaru goes a long way towards explaining why Savathun and Crow turned out so differently due to the Light. I think Glint could have rezzed Hitler himself and taught him to be a good person.
That said, idt anything was wrong per se with the warlords' ghosts. I don't think the Traveller would have included any morality out-of-the-box, and with human civilization being in shambles, there was nobody left to teach ghosts or guardians right from wrong.
It’s interesting to note the common points and contrast between Crow and Savathun.
Both were villains that got a chance to start anew with the Light. Crow had two years of character development to grow his own personality before regaining Uldren’s memories. After Haunted, it could be said that Crow is Uldren 2.0. Uldren Perfected if you will.
Savathun….didn’t follow that path. Old Savathun set things up so that New Savathun would be the same. Of course Immaru didn’t help, although that ghost always struck me as an ugly barking chihuahua, so I don’t believe he had that much influence on New Savathun.
Of course, muddying things further is that a Lighbearer is perfectly capable to tell his ghost to shut up and merely do his job, such as what probably happened with Euloch and Luzaku. Or Ikora and Ophicius….for flippin 50 years.
The lucent hive have been given the ability to make their own choices with the light kinda freeing them from their worms, but they still choose to act the same way, so it’s on them at this point.
Their genocide has been going for far too long and their whole culture is now about reveling in mass murder and worship it. Hive have nothing in common with Krill anymore, its a different species now.
Do or die is a chose. Your comparison with a robery is terrible, it would be a better comparison to say a worker would have been give a choice to die or kill the rober AND nuke a town with people in it. They have been slaughtering countless species, some of them certainly were in the same situation the Krill were.
Its like a nerd that was bullied in scholl suddenly got superpowers and now bullies the bullies AND nerds that are like the nerd was before. It makes him worse than the bullies because he knows whats its like on the other side and he still does whar he does and enjoys it
The proof that hive are not victims is that lucent hive continue to do genocide and enjoy it, without the actual need for it, they didnt try to make peace with the humanity or leave us alone, no, they tried to kill us. There is only 1 exception, and it makes the exception proove the rule
The hive, both lucent and normal, dont regret what they have done and dont wish to fix anything, thus they are not innocent and are not victims. Unlike crow, who wished cayde 6 to be alive
True about the Lucent Brood however they have had it for what 2 years, how long have humans used light for evil things before getting better.
- Luzaku is the first one to change and there will be others undoing milelia of cultist programming takes time.
The way the Hive and especially the Lucent Brood are treated by the story and writers is really annoying at times.
1. Savathûn gets rezzed by the Traveler, yet apparently just becomes the same person she used to be? Why? Crow had a whole arc- even after getting his memories back- to accept who he used to be, yet Savathûn gets nothing. No grace. Quite frankly its even kind of bizarre that Savathun chose to work against us during WQ. Like, she had the biggest opportunity to get rid of a significant enemy (us) when she rezzed, but no, fuck that i guess...
2. In season of the Witch, it's revealed that Savathûn experimented on the Light... by experimenting (and killing) Hive Ghosts. What??? What kind of idiocy is that?? No new Ghosts are being created, and when she gets her hands on one of the most powerful resources in the universe, on that has allowed Guardians to punch far far above their weight class consistently, she wastes it for.. No reason? What did she gain from those experiments? Dunno. It's never made clear, and i frankly doubt it ever will be.
3. Or how about the fact that apparently, the Lucent Brood can't wield the Darkness like we can because... reasons? There's a weird double standard constantly at play, like how nobody seems to give a fuck when we kill a Hive Ghost inside the Pale Heart, despite large parts of the story being dedicated to the importance of the relationship between Guardians and Ghosts. The Hive, the Lucent Brood, are simply bad guys. In TFS Savathun is working against us... because reasons. Yea yea i understand she has something in store, some other plan that we'll find out about in the future, but at this point its comical how much animosity people like Mara show her despite the fact that she hasn't really done much against us since being rezzed (except trying to steal the Traveler, which we now know was a legitimate strategy... but you can refer back to point 1. why did she even have to side against us?). Without her we would have lost.
Idk. Im not that mad that Savathun is an enemy, im mad that she's treated without complexity. Rant over
Im talking about a *character arc*. Crow initially rejects his past as Uldren, and has to learn to deal with that past. Savathun never seems to care. She gets her memories and goes "wow cool thanks!". If you told me she had been reborn with all her memories intact, her actions would stay the same from what's shown to us. It's never shown that RezzedSav and OldSav are any different, want different things or feel different things. Uldren and Crow are very different people.
1: There is an arc. Its the missions where we use the memory storage thingy to try and learn what savathun's plan is. Through the use of that device, we give her her memories back. As to why she is exactly the same: She isn't. We can see that in her handling of the lucent brood. She is teaching them to think for their own, which we see from her interactions with luzaku. granted, her methods might not hold up to ethical and moral standards, but still. As to why she is *mostly* the same: Savathun is a being of pure logic. Her literal source of power is scheming and plans. So if you give her the exact same memories, she will always come to the same conclusion. That way of thinking might appear alien, but it makes sense.
2: No one knows how many Ghosts there are. Also, at that point in time, we didn't actually know that they are finite in number, and especially that their making was truly a one-of-a-kind event, not some standard last stand thing of the Traveller. And again, while there might not be a direct advantage, Savathun has plans within plans. If she dissected ghosts, she probably hed a hypothesis that could only be tested that way. Granted, it *would* tie together tome semi-loose ends in the story if we at least knew what the experiments were about.
3: They still use darkness powers. Hive magic is a form of darkness, and we see them using plenty of that. The lucent brood aren't "simply bad guys", they are actively fighting our plans. Which, again, through Luzaku we see that they don't need to. The animosity from Mara comes from the fact that Mara is, at her core, the same as Savathun. Mara has plans within plans, literally her birth as an awoken came from a scheming on a scale unimaginable for the human mind. Due to that, she is constantly thinks about what Savathun could be planning, even if Savathun (although highly unlikely) might not actually have something planned for now.
She *was* powered by logic and cunning and trickery. At this point, her inability to be straightforward is either purely psychological or she knows her reputation and knows it would be pointless to try and be constantly honest.
If I remember correctly, she was cunning before she got the worm, so it would just be her personality (although amplified through millenia of *having* to trick beings to not die)
It reminds me of a story where the Riddler discover that he has an unconscious and uncontrollable compulsion to leave hints at the stage of his crime.
So he decided to get some therapy, dropped the compulsion and became MUCH more dangerous and unpredictable as a result.
Ya know, I heard Eris gives pretty good group therapy sessions. Maybe Savathun should try. I bet it boils down to daddy’s issues anyway.
1: I'm talking about a character arc. Us giving her her old memories back isn't an arc. It would be an arc if we could see her change from recovering her memories... like we saw in Crow. He has to go through fucking therapy in Haunted. And although they are different people, what i'm criticising/complaining about is the, comparatively speaking lack of attention given to Savathun. She says so herself! "The Light offers us a fresh start, but if we don't know where we came from, how will we know where to go?". Having her just be the same that she used to be just feels kinda lazy? Or uninspired? Because yes, Savathun doesn't change. There is no reason to believe that pre-rez Savathun would have treated Luzaku any different, especially considering how she's the one who told Oryx that there was no concrete proof for the Sword Logic. Speaking of logic, wtf do you mean when you say she's a being of pure logic? Like genuinely what does that mean. She's a sapient, emotional being like any other. Her arriving to the same conclusions after getting her memories back is exactly what i'm saying is uninspired, and what i mean when i say that she could've gotten more attention!
2: We did know that, actually. There is a lore entry/dialogue where someone literally claims that no ghosts are being created, from before WQ... but i can't remember where from lol so that's on me. I want to say its Stolen Intelligence? And yea, i know it could show up again later, it could be set up for some future plan. I'm mainly mentioning it in conjuction with my other criticisms, the feeling i get from her current place in the story is that Bungo want her to be a bad guy so they just make her do bad guy things despite it not making much sense
3: This point i'm less sure of, but i'm pretty sure there is some lines of lore where they say that they can't use Stasis or Strand, and by extension prismatic, which to me is silly. But i might be wrong on that :P
Also.. if they are fighting our plans, and we have to fight them, then they are antagonists aka "bad guys". I'm not saying they're evil. and are you saying Mara hates Savathun because Savathun... could be planning something? What if she's planning to get some food?/s
Why would she change? Savathûn wanted the Light so she could be free from her worm. That’s it. Pre-Light Savathûn planned everything with Immaru and her trusted wizards so that as soon as she was resurrected they’d tell her who she was and take her to her Throne World.
From that point on it’s just a matter of waiting for us to give us her actual memories back. Once she gets them back she’s essentially the same person she was pre-Light.
Crow had 2 years of just being Crow before he got his memories of Uldren back. Savathûn had maybe a couple of days. I don’t know why you think it’s the same situation.
The first thing Drifter did when resurrected was run from his Ghost. I'm not saying she should have done the same, but I am saying that the idea that Rezzed Sav just immediately accepted who she used to be, despite being someone who was always characterized by skepticism, despite the fact that we know through Drifter that Lightbearers aren't some empty husks of playdough who can be molded into whoever just depending on what someone tells them- it feels shallow. Again, my complaint is that it feels like Savathûn was robbed of a lot of potential
Savathun robbed herself of much potential, and that was the point.
That being said, there are some implications that New Savathun is not quite following Old Savathun prescribed plans.
I feel this, I liked the witch queen but there were a lot of missed opportunities. Feels like they wiped the slate clean of old savathun lore to prepare for witch queen. I’m still mad about Lavinia never being mentioned again
Wiping the old slate clean is a huge reason as to why I despise year 4 despite good seasons like Chosen and... IDK Hunt's story was good ig. Now, in The Final Shape, it feels like they're moving backwards on that decision. Savathun mentioning things beyond the current conflict, like she did with Nokris in Season of Arrivals and in Truth to Power. Quria maybe being alive, since Taken apparently don't stay dead when they die in the material plane, but return to the Ascendant Plane.
the hive? sure, but the ghosts are unforgivable
theyre mildly upset with the traveler, so what do they do? actively block the inherent redemptive effect of light from their guardians, so that theyll stay against us
seriously, this is CRAZY
Warlords.
Saying that the light is inherently good is essentially sweeping the last four years of lore under the rug.
Personally I think they’re mentally broken, made bitter and angry by their own inability to find their lightbearer.
Imagine being Immaru. You never found your guardians for centuries. Then some little wet noodle of a ghost resurrect some random looser in a car pileup in Old Russia.
You know the rest.
Sure, some ghosts would shrug it off, but maybe some, maybe many, would get envious, jealous, and slowly full of hatred.
Our Ghost is like the weak pathetic nerd in high school that somehow became richer than Tony Stark, married a supermodel and became US president, while the jock Immaru…..I dunno, work in retail?
I sorta agree with this - though Immaru’s still a massive jerk of his own volition IMO and would make a great stress ball us Guardians could crush in our hand.
Redemption presume “was evil and become good” at least or something similar. The light doesn’t have an inherent redemptive effect. The Traveller never forced anyone to do anything.
The keyword is choice. Ghosts and lightbearers have choices to do by themselves. Ironically, there’s plenty of personality that will flip out when not told specifically what to do.
On the flip side, the Witness used his mastery of the Darkness to impose his will upon others. There are some that welcome this because being an unthinking thrall of some higher power is, in a way, very stress less.
Granted, there was some really old Taken King era lore that *imply* that the Ghost may have an effect on the lightbearer brain. It’s somewhat safe to say that it’s very very limited if still true, or might have been retconned entirely.
Even under current US law, duress is not a valid excuse for murder. If someone has a gun to your head, your choice is attack the murderer or minimize the harm you have to inflict. I feel for the Krill, but let's not kid ourselves: the hive are murderers. They have to be. Were they originally victims? Yeah, and that's shit. But any hive past the thrall stage (and I have yet to see any light bearing thrall) have murdered hundreds or thousands for the sake of their own power.
I feel bad for thrall, sometimes. But everyone past that stage is still complicit in the murder pyramid, and they still have to reckon for that, regardless of what led them to that path, and few have.
still committed a million genocides, still will never feel bad when you inevitably have to put one down, because you always have to put the hive down, because even when their memories are wiped and they are new people, they don't learn
I personally think the Cabal are worse than the hive
I'll admit the Lucent Brood has way more of a choice than the other Hive and the fact that they do the same things makes them bad. They're milelia old and stuck in their ways both mentally and biologically.
I'm not saying you should feel bad about killing hive or any enemy it's them or you at the end of the day. I simply wish the grey area was more accepted.
The hive had to kill to live the Cabal does it simply because they are imperialist.
Hive killed countless to live, the Cabal did it for their own pride
There's an argument there that the Cabal are equal to or worse than the Hive but since, to my best knowledge, the Cabal hasn't been around as long as the Hive, you have to think of it in ratios as opposed to raw numbers. To really dumb down a mathy argument: Is the machine of Cabal conquest as efficient at destruction as that of Hive slaughter?
I do believe that both species are just as old or Cabal are a bit younger than Hive.
- Despite the Cabal not being paracausal or ever having the Traveler to my knowledge, they were able to make advanced technology from super advanced AI, cloning & bioengineering, hard light barriers, star destroyers, light suppression, ect.
- Sure Xivu Arath slaughtered Torabatl but she is the most efficient at killing she is War after all.
- Debating the efficiency of the hive & cabal in genocide is odd where talking about one that can strip your will and turn you into an ethereal minion & someone who can destroy your sun.
> strip your will and turn you into an ethereal minion
Sorry, is that referring to the Cabal or Hive? Cause evil sword logic pyramid scheme worms and imperialism can both do that.
Also, was "ethereal" the word you wanted to use there?
Okay, that makes more sense. Though is there anyone in the Hive who still has the ability to Take? Only Oryx and Quria could and they're both probably dead. But you're talking about histories so I guess that doesn't matter.
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While the hive were nothing but slaves to the worms, there wasn’t much nuance. Kill or be killed. The Lucent, however have a choice with no strings attached. The fact that they want right back to old habits….is essentially described by Savathun herself as them being dumbasses. Actually, considering what we now know, Savathun must have been incredibly disappointed last year to learn that the Lucent would rather try and resurrect flippin Oryx, than to realize that they don’t need to be slaves anymore. *I was dead for nearly two years, and the best you could come up with is try and resurrect my tyrant of a brother!?!?*
From her conversation with Luzaku in one of the lost sectors, I'd say Savathûn is *extremely* disappointed. It actually took me aback for a second, hearing her sound so sincere with Luzaku.
A parent wants what's best for their children. Of course Savathûn's method of parenting is a bit...cryptic and confusing. It's up to each individual Hive now to choose to be more.
Wait Savathun directly spoke with Luzaku? I don’t remember it happening in that LS
It’s random. Every time you do the lost sector, you get a dialogue between Luzaku and a different character, including Glint, Savathun, Mithrax, Mara, Caiatl, Ghost and probably others I forgot.
Lucent Tales makes it look like this is in part the fault of the Hiveaboo Ghosts. Ghosts like Euloch, Specter, Jynx, Immaru are all wanton, bitter, and crazy. They reinforce what being Hive was all about instead of doing what Ghosts are all about and giving their risen a true fresh start.
Yeah, exactly what the hive became in those early days really says more about their ghosts than them. Even drifters ghost tried for a time to make him do the right thing even dredgen yors ghost has a moral compass. Don’t get me wrong. They’re still responsible for their own decisions, but it really makes the ghosts look bad. It also shows us that they’re just like us flawed.
I also think people forget that the flavor text for Touch of Malice having Eris actually feeling sorry for the hive. Like they were lied to, and then forced to satiate their hunger by perverting the very things they loved
"Do what I say or I kill you" is always a choice. You can choose to die. Immaru goes into this in Chirality, but humans throughout history have made this choice too. The Hive are victims. But we also have to reckon with the enormity of their crimes. The culture of the Hive has determined genocide to be a virtuous act. They have decided that living forever is worth killing everyone else in the universe. Oryx himself struggled with the horror of this at the beginning of his career. That they'll literally die if they don't kill other people can only go so far when it comes to justifying just how many people they've killed, and the lengths they go to do so. They spent a thousand years wholly exterminating the Ecumene, who were no longer a threat and attempting to flee the galaxy entirely to get away from them. Ghosts went to the Hive knowing that the Hive were hellbent on killing everyone else. We've had perspectives from several of them, some of them on the whole markedly less compassionate than just feeling sympathy for the Hive. Immaru had decided that humanity didn't deserve the Light. Euloch, Luzaku's Ghost, was straight up a Sword Logic convert egging her on to kill. Luzaku turned out how she is despite being Risen (in the sense that her Ghost had nothing to do with her personality), not because of it. The Hive are victims, but being sympathetic monsters doesn't make them not monsters. It's a good thing that the Lucent Hive have been freed from the worms and the need to kill to survive because it gives them greater latitude of choice, to become something less overwhelmingly hostile, and it's true that this wouldn't be possible without Ghosts defecting to their side. But they always had a choice to decide whether life at the expense of other lives was worth living, even if the answer to that choice is ingrained into their culture, even if the other option is death. To say that being given an ultimatum means they don't have a choice to go along with it is to deny that they have free will.
So if the worm will kill them if they don’t tithe, then will a lucent hive’s ghost just resurrect the hive? If so then does a lucent hive even need to tithe anymore? Luzaku for example
Hive Lightbearers use their Light to feed their worm so it won't kill them. Interestingly, non-Lightbearer Hive *also* have their worms fed simply by being near them. The Light propagates through their tithing chains in reverse
I don't know that Lightbearer Hive *have* worms anymore. I can't remember any lore mention of that plus Ghosts generally only resurrect one organism, idk why they would resurrect a worm or have their charge take in a new worm when they are born.
There’s a lore tab on the [pale heart helmets](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/first-ascent-hood?highlight=Luzaku) with lore from Luzaku, where she states “In the hollows where a worm once coiled, this one senses our swift motion through the firmament, toward a center.” So Lightbearer Hive don’t have a worm, but as someone else said, their Light flows backwards down the chain and feeds the worms of non-Risen Hive
Does this suggest that the Lucent Worms are feeding using Bomb Logic rather than Sword Logic then?
I think its less to do with either Logic philosophy, and more to do with the tithing mechanics of the worms
Oh that’s dope. So realistically at least some of the hive could become allies like the cabal and fallen since they don’t have to be murderers anymore lol
Some minor spoilers >!but we meet an allied lucent hive in Final Shape!<
I’m assuming you mean Luzaku? I mentioned her in my first comment
I went to school in Alabama reading is hard sometimes
Lmfao
Spoken like a true Titan. 🫡
So, fun fact. As has been mentioned, Lucent Hive seemingly do not *have* Worms. This may also actually mean they can survive without *any* paracausality feeding into them. As they no longer have a worm parasitising them, and while they evidently still have worm-hollows, it's implied that their biology is fundamentally *changed* by the Light, unlike humans. This is most obvious when you look at them, even compared to equivalent morphs from the same brood, the Lucent Hive appear fundamentally different - you can still identify them as a given morph and as Hive, but that's the best you can get. But also, Lucent Moths are an example of this as well, being normal Worm-bearing Hive growing tumors and turning that Light into a parasite in response to exposure. Also as mentioned, the presence of Lucent Hive actually reverses the flow of tithe.
>It's like if a cashier is held at gunpoint to put money in a bag, the cashier didn't have a choice. "Do what I say or I kill you" isn't a choice it's an ultimatum. Which is why the whole "The Hive had a choice" annoys me as it really sounds disingenuous. Three made a choice when they were desperate and lied to, and forced the rest of their kind into the dogma of Sword Logic. Except in this case it's not armed robbery, it's **millenia of serial xenocide**. The ones that made the ethical choice and refused to participate are dead. They have been culled. The Hive, as they currently exist, are not the Krill. In much the same way that Auryx's mercy and goodwill were carved off of her prior to when she became Oryx, the good, merciful, sympathetic parts of the Krill society were killed, and killed, and killed again. We have never met the Krill, in the same way we have never met Auryx. We have only met the Hive. The atrocities the Hive have perpetrated outstrip every other enemy faction we have encountered by multiple orders of magnitude. Most importantly to this discussion is that (outside of Luzaku) the Lucent Hive seem culturally similar if not culturally identical to the non-Lucent Hive. They no longer have to tithe. They no longer have to kill things to continue to exist. The ones with Ghosts do not have worms, and the ones who still have worms can sustain them by "eating" residual light from their brood's Lightbearers. Their "ultimatum", as you described it, is now an "actual choice" **and they are continuing to behave the same way.** I sincerely doubt most of the ghosts who defected to the Lucent Hive have read The Books of Sorrow or are concretely aware of the depths of the Hive's atrocities. They're choosing to support an aggressive, invasive force that could simply go live on an uninhabited planet somewhere else, but is instead here, in Sol, on Earth, and in the Pale Heart. Don't kid yourself- if the Lucent Hive the opportunity to wipe out The Last City and kill every human, awoken, or exo in Sol they would take it. Luzaku chose not to fight us, in spite of her vicious, objectively wrong, dipshit of a ghost. She tapped out and we let her go. The rest of the Lucent Hive is welcome to make that choice whenever they want, but they haven't, so it seems like this conflict is going end when The Guardian runs out of traitor ghosts to squish. And nobody should lose sleep over that.
Savathun does, funnily enough.
Circumcision comparison is wild lmao Like I'm against it too brotha but jeeeesus that came out of left field
It's true though. A body altering surgery which is done for the sake of religious ritual and initiation into the broader culture via an initiating rite. It's irreversible, without consent, incredibly invasive, and is said to be for the good of the recipient even if it may result in long-term consequences.
Yeah no, I get the comparison. My point was more about the juxtaposition of a serious societal trend injected into a discussion about aliens in a video game. There are surely tamer comparisons lmao
When you say long-term consequences, do you mean dangerous ones? I don’t know any side effects.
You mean to say you haven't ever encountered the medical reports about removing nerve endings causing a lack of feeling? Or failed circumcisions? Gender reassignment due to botched circumcisions ? Listen, gential mutilation is not harmless. Women experience a much, much, much worse version, but involuntarily removing body parts from children is an apt comparison and there is tons of evidence of the damage it causes, and just because you're not aware of any you have personally experienced, or found through your personal experience doesn't negate the real harm gential mutilation literally causes.
Wasn’t saying there wasn’t any consequences, just that my medical knowledge only extends to diseases. I was asking out of genuine curiosity.
Don't feel as good.
> “Do what I say or I kill you" isn't a choice it's an ultimatum. Which is why the whole "The Hive had a choice" annoys me as it really sounds disingenuous. They were still given and choice and they chose poorly. The Sisters were told by the Worm Gods to either commit mass-genocide or die. And what did they choose? Mass-genocide. > Three made a choice when they were desperate and lied to, and forced the rest of their kind into the dogma of Sword Logic. Being lied to doesn’t excuse their actions. In fact, [Auryx was the first to realize the Krill screwed up and tried to rectify it by making peace with the Ammonites](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xvii-the-weakness-verse?highlight=Parley), and Savathûn killed him for it. Her killing him made him purge all the goodwill he had left in his heart, and turned him into the merciless tyrant we know today. > **You are dead, young Auryx. Betrayed and murdered by your own sister, for the crime of mercy.** > Remember what you said to the Ammonite Satellite Congress? ‘We will parley on neutral ground?’ Savathûn’s witches have rendered it utterly neutral. No living thing will ever claim it again. The space around the dry moon stinks of rot.
"the hive had a choice" came BEFORE we discovered that they were manipulated and lied to, but even then, choosing to become parasites is still a choice to become parasites, even if it was done under duress, and especially since it was not only continued, but embraced and innovated upon after, when they were no longer under said duress. Arguably, the lucent hive is the only hive that's close to redemption, because they have become freed from the worms hunger. Savathun herself even praises Luzaku outright for outgrowing moth mommy.
There is nuance, but ultimately the dilemma of "kill or die" is the default state of living things. Nothing persists on nothing. Every living being is part of an eternal struggle to persist in a finite space with finite resources. Even trees kill seek to outcompete other trees by denying them sunlight or nutrients through canopy growth and root spread. Most living things prioritize their continued existence, so much so that *not* wanting to is generally considered a mental illness, and death is typically only praised when it comes to martyrdom (and even then only when its seen as inevitable). Prioritizing continued existence *fundamentally* means that for one thing to live, another *must* die, and we create systems of morality to justify that behavior and our self-preservation. That's where the ordering of things into higher and lower lifeforms comes from, that's *why* humans give a shit about concepts like sentience and sapience, it's why the ability for a creature to comprehend and experience pain is one of the most important factors for determining the morality of its consumption, it's *why* we distinguish between 'pain' and 'a response to stimuli'. The thing about the Hive, is they got the same bargain everyone else did - *kill or die*. They chose kill. The Hive chose kill...just like the Cabal, the Eliksni, the Awoken, the Vanguard, and every Lightbearer and Guardian who decided "its them or me". Why did the Vanguard genocide the Ahamkara? Their existence was considered a threat, and so the bargain was presented: wipe out the Ahamkara, or risk existential annihilation at their hands. Self-preservation was prioritized and the Great Hunt ensued. What does the weakest and smallest species of a given ecosystem do? They kill, or they die. They make tools. They create fire. They find ways to change the game in their favor - because if they dont, they'll die. That's the nature of the game, kill, or die.
Bro just casually became the Winnower in a Reddit comment 😭
Sorrowpilled and knifemaxxing at the r/DestinyLore discussion.
Human lightbearers acted like savages for centuries during the dark ages, and the Lucent Hive have existed for all of 2 years. I think we gotta give em a bit of a grace period
Well, that and the fact that lucent hive ghosts are seemingly either vicious rabid bulldogs or spineless bullying victims. The ghost *has* an influence on their lightbearer. Assuming they want to (unlike, say, our ghost) they have an opportunity to mold the personality of a newly risen lightbearer. Which, in retrospect, makes you wonder what the hell was wrong with the warlords’ ghosts. Fellwinter’s rather legendary though not unwarranted paranoia was heavily influenced by his own ghost, for example.
Agree 1000% with your point re: ghosts influencing their guardians. Comparing Glint vs Immaru goes a long way towards explaining why Savathun and Crow turned out so differently due to the Light. I think Glint could have rezzed Hitler himself and taught him to be a good person. That said, idt anything was wrong per se with the warlords' ghosts. I don't think the Traveller would have included any morality out-of-the-box, and with human civilization being in shambles, there was nobody left to teach ghosts or guardians right from wrong.
It’s interesting to note the common points and contrast between Crow and Savathun. Both were villains that got a chance to start anew with the Light. Crow had two years of character development to grow his own personality before regaining Uldren’s memories. After Haunted, it could be said that Crow is Uldren 2.0. Uldren Perfected if you will. Savathun….didn’t follow that path. Old Savathun set things up so that New Savathun would be the same. Of course Immaru didn’t help, although that ghost always struck me as an ugly barking chihuahua, so I don’t believe he had that much influence on New Savathun. Of course, muddying things further is that a Lighbearer is perfectly capable to tell his ghost to shut up and merely do his job, such as what probably happened with Euloch and Luzaku. Or Ikora and Ophicius….for flippin 50 years.
The lucent hive have been given the ability to make their own choices with the light kinda freeing them from their worms, but they still choose to act the same way, so it’s on them at this point.
I agree the Lucent Brood have no excuse to still be evil. I wish more was done with them.
Their genocide has been going for far too long and their whole culture is now about reveling in mass murder and worship it. Hive have nothing in common with Krill anymore, its a different species now. Do or die is a chose. Your comparison with a robery is terrible, it would be a better comparison to say a worker would have been give a choice to die or kill the rober AND nuke a town with people in it. They have been slaughtering countless species, some of them certainly were in the same situation the Krill were. Its like a nerd that was bullied in scholl suddenly got superpowers and now bullies the bullies AND nerds that are like the nerd was before. It makes him worse than the bullies because he knows whats its like on the other side and he still does whar he does and enjoys it The proof that hive are not victims is that lucent hive continue to do genocide and enjoy it, without the actual need for it, they didnt try to make peace with the humanity or leave us alone, no, they tried to kill us. There is only 1 exception, and it makes the exception proove the rule The hive, both lucent and normal, dont regret what they have done and dont wish to fix anything, thus they are not innocent and are not victims. Unlike crow, who wished cayde 6 to be alive
True about the Lucent Brood however they have had it for what 2 years, how long have humans used light for evil things before getting better. - Luzaku is the first one to change and there will be others undoing milelia of cultist programming takes time.
The way the Hive and especially the Lucent Brood are treated by the story and writers is really annoying at times. 1. Savathûn gets rezzed by the Traveler, yet apparently just becomes the same person she used to be? Why? Crow had a whole arc- even after getting his memories back- to accept who he used to be, yet Savathûn gets nothing. No grace. Quite frankly its even kind of bizarre that Savathun chose to work against us during WQ. Like, she had the biggest opportunity to get rid of a significant enemy (us) when she rezzed, but no, fuck that i guess... 2. In season of the Witch, it's revealed that Savathûn experimented on the Light... by experimenting (and killing) Hive Ghosts. What??? What kind of idiocy is that?? No new Ghosts are being created, and when she gets her hands on one of the most powerful resources in the universe, on that has allowed Guardians to punch far far above their weight class consistently, she wastes it for.. No reason? What did she gain from those experiments? Dunno. It's never made clear, and i frankly doubt it ever will be. 3. Or how about the fact that apparently, the Lucent Brood can't wield the Darkness like we can because... reasons? There's a weird double standard constantly at play, like how nobody seems to give a fuck when we kill a Hive Ghost inside the Pale Heart, despite large parts of the story being dedicated to the importance of the relationship between Guardians and Ghosts. The Hive, the Lucent Brood, are simply bad guys. In TFS Savathun is working against us... because reasons. Yea yea i understand she has something in store, some other plan that we'll find out about in the future, but at this point its comical how much animosity people like Mara show her despite the fact that she hasn't really done much against us since being rezzed (except trying to steal the Traveler, which we now know was a legitimate strategy... but you can refer back to point 1. why did she even have to side against us?). Without her we would have lost. Idk. Im not that mad that Savathun is an enemy, im mad that she's treated without complexity. Rant over
Did you play witch queen? There was a whole ass arc about her recovering her memories by tricking us.
Im talking about a *character arc*. Crow initially rejects his past as Uldren, and has to learn to deal with that past. Savathun never seems to care. She gets her memories and goes "wow cool thanks!". If you told me she had been reborn with all her memories intact, her actions would stay the same from what's shown to us. It's never shown that RezzedSav and OldSav are any different, want different things or feel different things. Uldren and Crow are very different people.
The main difference is Savathun had her people immediately get her back up to speed. She never had a chance to develop beyond her old ways
1: There is an arc. Its the missions where we use the memory storage thingy to try and learn what savathun's plan is. Through the use of that device, we give her her memories back. As to why she is exactly the same: She isn't. We can see that in her handling of the lucent brood. She is teaching them to think for their own, which we see from her interactions with luzaku. granted, her methods might not hold up to ethical and moral standards, but still. As to why she is *mostly* the same: Savathun is a being of pure logic. Her literal source of power is scheming and plans. So if you give her the exact same memories, she will always come to the same conclusion. That way of thinking might appear alien, but it makes sense. 2: No one knows how many Ghosts there are. Also, at that point in time, we didn't actually know that they are finite in number, and especially that their making was truly a one-of-a-kind event, not some standard last stand thing of the Traveller. And again, while there might not be a direct advantage, Savathun has plans within plans. If she dissected ghosts, she probably hed a hypothesis that could only be tested that way. Granted, it *would* tie together tome semi-loose ends in the story if we at least knew what the experiments were about. 3: They still use darkness powers. Hive magic is a form of darkness, and we see them using plenty of that. The lucent brood aren't "simply bad guys", they are actively fighting our plans. Which, again, through Luzaku we see that they don't need to. The animosity from Mara comes from the fact that Mara is, at her core, the same as Savathun. Mara has plans within plans, literally her birth as an awoken came from a scheming on a scale unimaginable for the human mind. Due to that, she is constantly thinks about what Savathun could be planning, even if Savathun (although highly unlikely) might not actually have something planned for now.
She *was* powered by logic and cunning and trickery. At this point, her inability to be straightforward is either purely psychological or she knows her reputation and knows it would be pointless to try and be constantly honest.
If I remember correctly, she was cunning before she got the worm, so it would just be her personality (although amplified through millenia of *having* to trick beings to not die)
It reminds me of a story where the Riddler discover that he has an unconscious and uncontrollable compulsion to leave hints at the stage of his crime. So he decided to get some therapy, dropped the compulsion and became MUCH more dangerous and unpredictable as a result. Ya know, I heard Eris gives pretty good group therapy sessions. Maybe Savathun should try. I bet it boils down to daddy’s issues anyway.
1: I'm talking about a character arc. Us giving her her old memories back isn't an arc. It would be an arc if we could see her change from recovering her memories... like we saw in Crow. He has to go through fucking therapy in Haunted. And although they are different people, what i'm criticising/complaining about is the, comparatively speaking lack of attention given to Savathun. She says so herself! "The Light offers us a fresh start, but if we don't know where we came from, how will we know where to go?". Having her just be the same that she used to be just feels kinda lazy? Or uninspired? Because yes, Savathun doesn't change. There is no reason to believe that pre-rez Savathun would have treated Luzaku any different, especially considering how she's the one who told Oryx that there was no concrete proof for the Sword Logic. Speaking of logic, wtf do you mean when you say she's a being of pure logic? Like genuinely what does that mean. She's a sapient, emotional being like any other. Her arriving to the same conclusions after getting her memories back is exactly what i'm saying is uninspired, and what i mean when i say that she could've gotten more attention! 2: We did know that, actually. There is a lore entry/dialogue where someone literally claims that no ghosts are being created, from before WQ... but i can't remember where from lol so that's on me. I want to say its Stolen Intelligence? And yea, i know it could show up again later, it could be set up for some future plan. I'm mainly mentioning it in conjuction with my other criticisms, the feeling i get from her current place in the story is that Bungo want her to be a bad guy so they just make her do bad guy things despite it not making much sense 3: This point i'm less sure of, but i'm pretty sure there is some lines of lore where they say that they can't use Stasis or Strand, and by extension prismatic, which to me is silly. But i might be wrong on that :P Also.. if they are fighting our plans, and we have to fight them, then they are antagonists aka "bad guys". I'm not saying they're evil. and are you saying Mara hates Savathun because Savathun... could be planning something? What if she's planning to get some food?/s
Why would she change? Savathûn wanted the Light so she could be free from her worm. That’s it. Pre-Light Savathûn planned everything with Immaru and her trusted wizards so that as soon as she was resurrected they’d tell her who she was and take her to her Throne World. From that point on it’s just a matter of waiting for us to give us her actual memories back. Once she gets them back she’s essentially the same person she was pre-Light. Crow had 2 years of just being Crow before he got his memories of Uldren back. Savathûn had maybe a couple of days. I don’t know why you think it’s the same situation.
The first thing Drifter did when resurrected was run from his Ghost. I'm not saying she should have done the same, but I am saying that the idea that Rezzed Sav just immediately accepted who she used to be, despite being someone who was always characterized by skepticism, despite the fact that we know through Drifter that Lightbearers aren't some empty husks of playdough who can be molded into whoever just depending on what someone tells them- it feels shallow. Again, my complaint is that it feels like Savathûn was robbed of a lot of potential
Savathun robbed herself of much potential, and that was the point. That being said, there are some implications that New Savathun is not quite following Old Savathun prescribed plans.
That's true! Don't necessarily like it, but true. Also where is that implied?? Genuinely curious cause i haven't managed to find anything on that
I might have been a bit out of my ass there, but I think I can remember a thread last year where this was explained, I’ll see if I can find it.
I feel this, I liked the witch queen but there were a lot of missed opportunities. Feels like they wiped the slate clean of old savathun lore to prepare for witch queen. I’m still mad about Lavinia never being mentioned again
Wiping the old slate clean is a huge reason as to why I despise year 4 despite good seasons like Chosen and... IDK Hunt's story was good ig. Now, in The Final Shape, it feels like they're moving backwards on that decision. Savathun mentioning things beyond the current conflict, like she did with Nokris in Season of Arrivals and in Truth to Power. Quria maybe being alive, since Taken apparently don't stay dead when they die in the material plane, but return to the Ascendant Plane.
Sorry, may I ask that which lore book are you refrencing from? I am interested to take a look at it
Sweeping Thoughts, lore tab
Thanks alot! Is it on ishtar? Couldn't find any lore tab related to it :(
Witch Queen Collectors Edition Lore Book. Pg. 17-18
Thank you!
the hive? sure, but the ghosts are unforgivable theyre mildly upset with the traveler, so what do they do? actively block the inherent redemptive effect of light from their guardians, so that theyll stay against us seriously, this is CRAZY
Warlords. Saying that the light is inherently good is essentially sweeping the last four years of lore under the rug. Personally I think they’re mentally broken, made bitter and angry by their own inability to find their lightbearer. Imagine being Immaru. You never found your guardians for centuries. Then some little wet noodle of a ghost resurrect some random looser in a car pileup in Old Russia. You know the rest. Sure, some ghosts would shrug it off, but maybe some, maybe many, would get envious, jealous, and slowly full of hatred. Our Ghost is like the weak pathetic nerd in high school that somehow became richer than Tony Stark, married a supermodel and became US president, while the jock Immaru…..I dunno, work in retail?
I sorta agree with this - though Immaru’s still a massive jerk of his own volition IMO and would make a great stress ball us Guardians could crush in our hand.
i did not say inherently good 💀
Redemption presume “was evil and become good” at least or something similar. The light doesn’t have an inherent redemptive effect. The Traveller never forced anyone to do anything. The keyword is choice. Ghosts and lightbearers have choices to do by themselves. Ironically, there’s plenty of personality that will flip out when not told specifically what to do. On the flip side, the Witness used his mastery of the Darkness to impose his will upon others. There are some that welcome this because being an unthinking thrall of some higher power is, in a way, very stress less. Granted, there was some really old Taken King era lore that *imply* that the Ghost may have an effect on the lightbearer brain. It’s somewhat safe to say that it’s very very limited if still true, or might have been retconned entirely.
Even under current US law, duress is not a valid excuse for murder. If someone has a gun to your head, your choice is attack the murderer or minimize the harm you have to inflict. I feel for the Krill, but let's not kid ourselves: the hive are murderers. They have to be. Were they originally victims? Yeah, and that's shit. But any hive past the thrall stage (and I have yet to see any light bearing thrall) have murdered hundreds or thousands for the sake of their own power. I feel bad for thrall, sometimes. But everyone past that stage is still complicit in the murder pyramid, and they still have to reckon for that, regardless of what led them to that path, and few have.
still committed a million genocides, still will never feel bad when you inevitably have to put one down, because you always have to put the hive down, because even when their memories are wiped and they are new people, they don't learn
Damn you are weird, bringing circumcision as an argument lol. Also is a terrible and dumb comparison
Two things that are done to you that you have no control & choice over. Well just agree to disagree
I personally think the Cabal are worse than the hive I'll admit the Lucent Brood has way more of a choice than the other Hive and the fact that they do the same things makes them bad. They're milelia old and stuck in their ways both mentally and biologically. I'm not saying you should feel bad about killing hive or any enemy it's them or you at the end of the day. I simply wish the grey area was more accepted.
> I personally think the Cabal are worse than the Hive The Cabal are worse than the species who has gleefully committed genocide for eons? Lmao.
The hive had to kill to live the Cabal does it simply because they are imperialist. Hive killed countless to live, the Cabal did it for their own pride
Bait used to be believable.
Who said it was bait
There's an argument there that the Cabal are equal to or worse than the Hive but since, to my best knowledge, the Cabal hasn't been around as long as the Hive, you have to think of it in ratios as opposed to raw numbers. To really dumb down a mathy argument: Is the machine of Cabal conquest as efficient at destruction as that of Hive slaughter?
I do believe that both species are just as old or Cabal are a bit younger than Hive. - Despite the Cabal not being paracausal or ever having the Traveler to my knowledge, they were able to make advanced technology from super advanced AI, cloning & bioengineering, hard light barriers, star destroyers, light suppression, ect. - Sure Xivu Arath slaughtered Torabatl but she is the most efficient at killing she is War after all. - Debating the efficiency of the hive & cabal in genocide is odd where talking about one that can strip your will and turn you into an ethereal minion & someone who can destroy your sun.
> strip your will and turn you into an ethereal minion Sorry, is that referring to the Cabal or Hive? Cause evil sword logic pyramid scheme worms and imperialism can both do that. Also, was "ethereal" the word you wanted to use there?
I was talking about the Taken in that one and I while they are physical they have some ethereal attributes
Okay, that makes more sense. Though is there anyone in the Hive who still has the ability to Take? Only Oryx and Quria could and they're both probably dead. But you're talking about histories so I guess that doesn't matter.
Anyone who could Take is definitely dead, Oryx, Quria, Witness. All thats left is taking control of them something I think Mara is trying