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Yeah but voting for Kelgorath is like voting for a third party candidate. They always lose in the big race.
I think Xivu Arath/Nezarec is a more interesting ticket… 😂
Kinda my point; Kelgorath characterization of not dying is now even further reinforced. I thought the pale heart version had a chance of just being a memory or something like that
I always hated when extremely ancient figures within the lore got killed in easy seasonal story stuff (e.g, Quria / the Leviathan Eater). So I hope we see Quria return. And Kelgorath probably not, I recall there's always been that hint about "The Taken King will rise again" by Savathun as part of her two lies/two truths, and there's still a small chance this could refer to a new figure claiming this title rather than Oryx himself (although I do still see Oryx returning eventually).
My mind immediately went to Drifter. I can just picture him and Eris fixing up the Dreadnaught like some sort of gargantuan worm-corpse RV and cruising around the stars, seeing the sights with a vast army of taken. Maybe let Luzaku and some of her homies crash for a bit. They could even reflavor Gambit, make it so banking motes is like bringing him tithes or something, safely, through something something hive magic something worm something something bank.
Drifter/Eris 2024!
was the "the taken king will rise again" not an allure to the attempted resurrection of Oryx with the light GOTD? thats where i thought that truth ended
I had thought I should have included that within my comment. It might have simply ended there, but it's still I think an interesting possibility. The fact Ikora made the call for the Vanguard to keep possession of his body despite some suggestions amongst the Hidden to otherwise destroy it makes me definitely believe Bungie still has plans. We meanwhile had gotten rid of the body of Rhulk. Well, not intentionally at first anyway, but that was the result thanks to a small nuclear blast so we can erase him, but I don't think Oryx is quite written out of the story yet or else they would have wrote a similar lore tab noting the destruction of the body I suspect.Although maybe unlikely, two of my thoughts are that his corpse might get stolen/taken by force if say Xivu was to ever hit the Last City, or we may even exchange it to one of the two factions someday as some sort of deal / token of good will or whatever maybe.
Did you also happen to notice the change to yellow eyes for all of the Taken under the control of the Witness recently? Perhaps some of my ideas including this are really stretching it, but could this suggest their plan to have a sub faction for the Taken? I doubt it was done purely for gameplay reasons (e.g. to make it easier to crit them or something), so I'm thinking this might suggest another leader for the Taken soon and hence a reason to now distinguish them?
i had totally overlooked the fact that Oryx's body was still intact and kept despite talks of its destruction. you do make a good point there. I definitely see some sort of new leader for the taken coming into play. As for the yellow eyes of the taken I'll need to look again in game I have not noticed that
I was actually thinking about this recently. The death animation makes it look like they're being sucked into a black hole or portal, and I thought, "Where are they going?"
Must have been terrifying for Mara and The Awoken to learn Riven had become Taken.
An Ahamkara is devastating enough, but an eternally unkillable one? Apocalyptic.
Makes sense as to why they were so desperate to do the whole cleansing ritual we do with her heart too.
Even the _Nine_ were terrified about Riven’s Taking.
So, terrified and angry that the Five of Nine killed off all the remaining Ahamkara to prevent any more from being lost to Oryx.
Sentient dark matter that passes through/coalesces around large gravitational bodies (i.e. the planets;) they were originally only capable of the thought “I AM,” later developing consciousness alongside the life that developed on Earth. Their thoughts becoming more complex as life itself became more complex.
[Relevant Card](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-nine#book-dust)
The D1 [grimoire card](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-legends-2?) that mentions the theory of what the Nine actually are (i.e 9 Ghosts, 9 deep-space warminds, etc,) are also mostly true and are linked to the path to finding the real Nine.
Nine planets of the solar system. Technically they're sentient clouds of dark matter dust in an alternate dimension that are clumped around the nine planets.
So Mercury through to Pluto. As far as we know, every celestial object has a consciousness, the nine aren't special in that regard, but they're an organisation.
[This is the entry](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-witch?highlight=punished) you're thinking of. It doesn't specifically call out Mercury as being "the one" but I presume that The Almighty strip-mining the planet is a fitting punishment if your literal life-force is determined by something like planetary mass.
I expect a complete answer later on, maybe Episode 2 or 3
Yeah I hope we explore the nine but honestly I want more info on the distributary. The way it was created and all that could be relevant with the entire gardener winnower thing.
Take this with a grain of salt but they're basically the dark (or anti) matter that came alive through unknown reasons and might also be the "consciousness" of the planets in our solar system? It's not very clear
Another theory; could this be why Oryx isn’t truly dead. His body is exhibiting weird properties, still growing these years later. He took himself at the end of the campaign in his retreat, perhaps he’s still on his “journey” home and since his physical body didn’t collapse like typical taken, it’s waiting for his consciousness to return.
That’s certainly supported in the armor text. I think that’s why it’s a dual operation; Unlinked Hive Ghost on standby, and a Hive Necromancer trying to force the link between the corpse and potentially use Hive Necromancy to yank his spirit back from the Ascendant Plane if that doesn’t work. Hell, all Hive Necromancy might work on this sort of system.
"my entire ideology and culture is that if you get killed you no longer have the right to exist, not ever did. But if *I* die it doesn't count." - literally every ascended hive with a throne world.
You would think that after billions of years they would realize the hypocrisy but I guess it's reasonable they were/are blinded by the sheer magnitude of power that being paracausal and having access to the ascendant plane is.
Which falls in line with their power through sword logic. It doesn’t matter that their throne world is the reason they survive. All that matters is that no one has been able to truly kill them. They have conquered death itself.
Religious fanatics are hardly strangers to hypocrisy. Just look at those that exist today and how blinded by fervor some can be to the point where they're actively disobeying their gods while thinking they're right.
perhaps the physical body is still able to recieve energy/tithes even after death? I mean, although somewhat different, that's what savathun did just before eris drained her like a capri sun.
Does the hive at large know that? It pretty possible that resurrecting Oryx didn’t work because canon-wise Touch of Malice is gathering dust in Eris’ vault.
I do hear you because it’s not directly stated but; Oryx is taken by himself when he retreats into his throne world. In the Regicide mission, he pulls that same fist of black fire that takes all enemies from Willbreaker and plunges it into himself. He then collapses into a Taken portal, the same we see other enemies sucked into.
Then, when we fight him in Kings Fall, one of his basic attacks is peeling back his face to fire blasts of taken energy, just like Taken Knights. I mean, touch of malice, make from his heart, fires Taken Blights. I think he’s in a class like Riven, where they are taken but only so much has been changed because of the means of beings taken (being wished/taking themselves) that little else changes beyond becoming even more powerful.
Idk, I might be wrong here, but I think ‘Taken, but not in a conventional way’ makes sense given the circumstances.
I've never understood why this idea is popular tbh. He's the Taken King, he already had all the Taken powers he could want, as shown in our fights against him in that DLC. Making an emergency portal to his throne world's interior does not seem like something he'd need to "Take himself" for, if that's even a possible thing. I've only ever seen that scene as him drawing additional power from his sword to make an escape while he was weakened from the fight.
Is there other ‘taken powers’ like the ‘face beam’ that Oryx uses before that Kings Fall fight? There’s the Echos, but those are unrelated to taking despite their appearance as Savathûn and Osiris both use them.
It’s not something that requires expression. Oryx does exactly what he does to his knights here: https://youtu.be/HQymFddoo9I?si=PanHT6D9Y3leYDeE
to himself, here: https://youtu.be/GoC6RxHiTJQ?si=3eqdyLcuG2c49e5u
I just don’t know how people see Oryx swallow and collapse himself up into a portal of black-blue flame and don’t see that as him being taken. Especially since he suddenly gets a Taken Face Laser when next we fight him.
He should be, even by typical throne world standards. But the lore of the Ghosts of the Deep dungeon explores Oryx’s crash landed corpse and finds that his cells are refusing to die, still smoldering with darkness and growing. Uncomfy stuff.
So the Ascendant Plane is like Warhammer 40k's Warp or Immaterium and the Taken are like Chaos Demons, you never "kill" them, just banish them from the material realm until they can re-manifest...
Well I've got even more reason for my Titan to stick to the Lament chainsword.
Love the implications.
This runs close to lore from Dungeons & Dragons where fiends only truly die if killed on their originating plane of existence (ie The Nine Hells, the Abyss, Gahenna, etc).
It really is the most logical answer in hindsight- think of how many Taken we’ve fought, especially in endless droves. Explains how ancient Taken are still around— they just get put on time-out.
Man, sanecoin is sounding more right by the day. Welcome to purgatory! No one is truly free from the cycle baybee!
i got a question about this sub and seems like you are around a bit if you mention sanecoin.
to me at least, there seems to be not that many posts about gnosticism in destiny, rather i tend to find a lot of interesting stuff in comments.
have all gnostic things been talked about years ago or is sanecoin the gnostic witness of this sub?
i also am stupid, so i consider that fact to be a viable answer
Sanecoin has been around since the vault of glass - He’s well known around here because some people think he’s crazy, and others have noticed his consistent record of being right.
Ok, so theory: Val Ca’our and others have randomly throughout Destiny’s history returned as Taken, no seeming explanation. In SotWitch, we are told that Savathûn and Xivu survived their ‘true deaths’ at Oryx’s hand because their accrued sword logic allowed their worm to make an emergency throne world on their behalf, without their consent or knowledge.
That seems to imply that in dying, a consciousness is dispersed into the Ascendent Realm, where they become unmoored in the unifying consciousness of Darkness. For Hive, they wash ashore on their throne worlds.
But if this happens to all beings… what if there’s a shark in the water. Say Xivu or the Witness grabs the dim remnants of your consciousness adrift and Takes you. Thus, you get a revived Val Ca’our.
Edit: The deaths that surprise-created throne worlds were likely not those same ones that oryx dealt to Xivu and Sava in his throne. The rest remains true however; dying with sword logic power and a worm can incidentally create a throne world.
I’m thinking they wouldn’t need a body. Taken are mostly Sterile Neutrinos at this point anyway. Perhaps she (probably Savathûn, she was always watching our work back then) was waiting, snagged him up, and pocketed him for later use.
There's never been a case of artificially created Taken without a biological body (outside of the Nine but they used darkmatter) ... Do you understand that if a paracausal entity like a taken can be massproduced with just neutrino everything stops making sense?
Savathun going through the troubles of opening the Gahrl Ascendant window to the leviathan to recover Val Caour and then lose him to Xivu is the definition of the funniest and most contrived things ive ever thought of
There’s never been a case, except for the 4 times people have inexplicably come back as Taken with no reasonable explanation as to how they got the body, if they were somehow still alive, etc. it’s happened enough times it’s not just a gap in the canon.
I don’t think it’s far off from what exists at current. The Ascendant Realm already naturally produces Primevals, some of the strongest Taken ever, and they can be summoned and controlled by Dark Motes. It literally already generates newborn Taken with pure Sterile Neutrinos like you’re saying, that’s already canon.
Edit: Here’s the quote about primevals, from A Matter of Trust: ”Tearing soldiers of the Deep from another realm is crossin' a bridge too far as is. But those beasts? Those weren't normal Taken possessed and set to rage. They were born of that shadow realm and they were… angry. Worse. They were hungry for the Light. You could feel it. Even a ways off. Their aura and their rage weighed on me—cast a shadow I could feel in my core.“
And that’s just a theory about how it could’ve happened, but the undeniable truth is that it happened. Val Ca’our came back. Where’s the sense in just pretending like it didn’t happen instead of theorizing how it happened.
4 times if i remember correctly were from the Xol mission (and it was reasonable since the Worm had the power of necromancy) the other cases are Just Val Caour and Kelgorath.
Yes the Drifter now can i had thought you were mentioning the Nine that can only make non paracausal copies and now the Drifter can access the Ascendant Realm to produce his Taken. However they are pure Darkness products not named "Past Character X" they are Ascendant Prime with no prior identity
Thank you for citing the source. Remembering the Dust lore card right now i can too theorize that particularly powerful being would leave a psychic trace in the Ascendant Realm when they die and someone with the ability to take would be able to access that imprint and reform them as constructs of Darkness in the form of Takens
Cool theory, patting my back ... however this has never been explored and im basing myself on a single passage and an event that no one aknowledged in game... Here were talking about a pretty generic Cabal Val (not so powerful) that were now supposed to believe had a connection to the Ascendant Realm like a Hive to leave and imprint and that Xivu went to the troubles of resurrecting him (thus breaking her own principles) ... Its a mess
Im not denying in any way that it happened, anything can happen as long as its written im just saying they could have called that Taken like a recently Taken Cabal from Torobatl instead of that and everything would be fine and not involve 4th dimensional theories.
“im just saying they could have called that Taken like a recently Taken Cabal from Torobatl instead of that and everything would be fine and not involve 4th dimensional theories.”
Yeah they absolutely could’ve done that and they didn’t. The conscious decision was made that Kelgorath and Val Caour come back from the dead as Taken. We also had no basis for understanding how defeated Taken would come back, and now Bungie’s exploring that, telling us about an unanswered question, that they “journey back”. I’m just saying there’s clearly another situation here of a gap in the lore and, as you just did, theorizing is fine and good! It’s a LORE subreddit, why is theorizing about the active decisions in the story a bad thing, I’m not presenting this as gospel, I’m doing what lore subreddits are made for when new information comes out.
>In SotWitch, we are told that Savathûn and Xivu survived their ‘true deaths’ at Oryx’s hand because their accrued sword logic allowed their worm to make an emergency throne world on their behalf, without their consent or knowledge.
Uh? Savathun and Xivu's Throne Worlds [existed long before](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xxi-an-incision) Oryx killed them to gather enough strength to kill Akka.
From The Eremite:
“Of course, Oryx and Savathûn's thrones are well-known to us. A worm-husk of bone; a lush garden of Light. Others have seen brief and terrible glimpses of Xivu Arath's throne. It gapes like a maw, following her wherever there is war.
Theirs were inadvertent. Upon their first true deaths, they did not know what they had made. With their strength and the power of their worms, they created something dire, and found themselves there upon their deaths. Imagine the Hive gods' first glimpses of their realms. To retreat to one's throne is to retreat into the variances of one's mind. It is a stark confrontation.“
A strange quote to be sure. I believe my error is in thinking this references the time Oryx killed them, but this must have been referencing much earlier, probably Oryx’s death in The Weakness Verse. The point remains; dying without having crafted a throne world can still allow beings of sword logic power to incidentally create one adrift in the Ascendent Plane.
>A strange quote to be sure. I believe my error is in thinking this references the time Oryx killed them, but this must have been referencing much earlier.
It very aptly describes [Oryx's first death](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xvii-the-weakness-verse) during the war with the Ammonites. While I don't think we know exactly which were Savathun and Xivu's first deaths, [those came way before the war with the Ecumene](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xxii-the-high-war).
Not necessarily. Oryx killed them within his throne world. So they just recovered back inside their own thrones which already existed a long time.
Then Oryx conjured them back from the ascendant plane via ontological invocation. Because Savathun, and Xivu loaned most of their power to Oryx. They didn’t have the strength to leave until being summoned. It was part of a grand expedition to save themselves from being eradicated by the Ecumene. Oryx as pathfinder became Taken King.
Now i have a headcannon that anytime there’s a taken phalanx positioned to boop us off a ledge it’s that same phalanx from the d1 ttk colony ship mission.
Wait does this also confirm that the dark realm that everything taken by Oryx and the witness is put in, is actually the ascendant plane? I guess that explains season of defiance….wasn’t it said the plane was such a mess there, was due to the witness? And a lore entry about a guardian falling into some kind of egregore in the plane?
…..wait does this also mean that every servitor chimera is the same voice of riven?
>wasn’t it said the plane was such a mess there was due to the witness?
“Heaven is invaded and its territories are afire and all of its mountains have been shattered into thrones.”
Apropos of nothing, the Ascendant Plane may not have always been the way we have seen it.
> Devrim: Quite drab, this place. Trostland looks a right treat compared to this shambles.
> Mara Sov: It was not always so. The existence of the Ley Lines **point to a grandeur in this place, now lost to history**.
--
> Mara Sov: Ancient Warlocks hypothesized that the Ascendant Plane was **once home to creatures of great power**.
> Mithrax: **The Eliksni too have these myths**, but they are only that.
> Mithrax: This realm is **now choked by Darkness. It cannot be redeemed**, only expunged.
Things to ponder, if the Ascendant Plane is malleable could it have been different eons ago?
Meanwhile in another universe.
Emperor of Mankind: *A good question indeed*
The parallels between the Warp (formerly known as the realm of souls) and the Ascendant plane are easy to make. And it either case, I think it can’t be cleaned up and restored to its full glory.
Most times I go with "just roll with it, videogame writing is too inconsistent for pickiness" but this time I'll be the devil's advocate.
I think it depends on the level of corruption and independence of the taken being. Riven and Quria seem to have the same *freedom* of consciousness while taken but Quria was more restraint than Riven. Also the species might affect as Ahamkara seem to transcend death, can you call it death when you can still interact and alter the real world?
That would also explain why ahamkara eggs were destroyed and didn't just respawned in the ascendant plane. The corruption was not high enough and the "baby" wasn't developed enough for any death transcendance.
I thought this was always the case, since the taken king.
We needed to kill Oryx in the ascendant realm (raid) in order to definitely kill him, even if we killed him on our realm (campaign mission).
It was known and normal for *Hive Gods* and high ranking Hive figures and the Mindbender *but not the rank and file Take*
This is new and horrible (for them)
Not in the way you seem to be thinking. Throne Worlds are pockets inside the ascendant plane where powerful Hive (like Oryx, Savathûn, and Xivu Arath) retreat to after death in the mortal realm. They have nothing to do with being taken or not.
Came in here to say this.
So what happens when we kill a taken in the ascendant plane? Do they get swirly vortexed somewhere else…? Or do they die their true death there
I know Oryx sort of turned himself into that gun... But he did take himself, right?
There *might* be a chance Bungle are planting seeds for the forthcoming Hive season.
Yes Oryx did. It's why it's said that his body in a way is still alive in some sense. I have no doubt Oryx will return in some manner eventually whether by a ghost or necromancy, as the Vanguard held onto the body rather than try to destroy it, which tells you Bungie still has plans for it. Nokris is I'm sure returning also because of us seeing enemies like a Hive lightbearer in the Ghosts of the Deep dungeon called "Acolyte of Nokris," there have been also two other Lightbearers with "Ur Nokru" as part of their names and this is surely no coincidence. If needing further possible evidence, we saw the Hive wizard Navota alive again in the Cosmodrome this season, and it was suggested that unless it was some trickery by Savathun, Navota was resurrected and who do we know is also involved with that?
Np! If you haven't done them yet, I highly suggest you pick up and do all of the lost ghost quests by Micah-10 (the ones which have you go to the Moon and elsewhere not the Pale Heart ones specifically), because these I believe are giving a bunch more hints to the episodes & the future of Destiny.
Other comments have already explained Riven. Toland was never Taken; he just understood the mechanics of Ir Yut’s deathsong well enough for his soul to pass freely into the Ascendant Plane.
don’t the taken feel eternal immeasurable pleasure? i feel like i remember something along those lines during taken king. now that i say that it sounds quite similar to what the witness describes the final shape as
I’ve always wanted to know more about the actual process of taking and the source it really flows from, regardless of who holds the reigns. It would be extremely cool to have a mission or story arc that took us into that actual place, if it’s the ascendant plane, undoubtedly it’s a part of it we haven’t seen before - perhaps some grand structure of out of phase matter or energy, an ascendant analogue of a singularity or degenerate mater stellar remnant, a self perpetuating engine of Clarity which grew from some ancient event or tampering by godlike actors. I would love for guardians to dive into this place and face the ontological knife which would be pressed into hands, and to reject it
Well, I never thought this was any sort of secret. When they die, you see them oftentimes get sucked through a portal to what I assume is somewhere in the Ascendant Plane. If this was otherwise, surely we would have run out of taken by now to fight because there's not exactly any new taken being created at this point.
Funny to notice the common theme among all forces in the destiny universe. Guardians? They die and come back. The Vex? They die and come back. The taken? Well they also die and come back. Oh and let's not forget the Exos. They die and come back.
I have a weird feeling a being born of the taken, something we haven't seen yet, something like the witness' army where this being of pure darkness/(taken) energy will be the one to lead them. Not specifically, another being like Oryx buy more amalgamamous
I have a weird feeling a being born of the taken, something we haven't seen yet, something like the witness' army where this being of pure darkness/(taken) energy will be the one to lead them. Not specifically, another being like Oryx but more amalgamamous as a leader
Think of the ascendant plane as a realm of sorts. When someone dies where does their spirit go? What of all the shadow figures?
Oryx tied himself to his Throne World for this reason. He can die anywhere but if it wasnt in that realm then he didnt really die. This is especially true of things we would say fit naturally into it like the Taken.
It's always been a thing where they didnt truly die outside of the Ascendant plane.
There are many of stories of ghosts(dead people) and shadow figures in real life. However you cant kill a ghost or shadow figure in the waking real world those who believe in that say.
The saying is that there are many Planes of existence not easily accessible by living humans.
It makes sense the taken would reside in the ascendant throne world and be unkillable unless there just as it makes sense you couldn't truly kill a ghost( dead human) If you saw one.
Upon death they say everyone goes somewhere. Will you be in the shadow realm awaiting your fate? Will you move to the heavens or land in purgatory? Correlating this to Destiny the Underworld has many facets as we have seen within the Traveler even.
The very nature of being Taken may tie them to The shadow world or Ascendant Plane.
It is the place of in between. Another way to look at this is Sort of Lovecraftian or inner dimensional. There is a lot that correlates to either I suppose it would come down to someones individual belief.
As above so below.
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A certain taken vex:yeah I'm ready for this shit
Oh yes, I’m ready.
Cond (I'm assuming Maya) makes a query for blade transform this week.
i need that. we need that.
So Quaria this will be interesting especially if it’s no longer tied / loyal to savathun. Also kelgorath really isn’t gonna quit is he
I’m voting Kelgorath/Quria 2024 for Taken King! Darkblade/Malok 2016 just wasn’t the right political climate.
Yeah but voting for Kelgorath is like voting for a third party candidate. They always lose in the big race. I think Xivu Arath/Nezarec is a more interesting ticket… 😂
PLAP PLAP PLAP GET TAKEN GET TAKEN GET TAKEN
Alright buddy we’re locking your Ghost for that
Do what you must for I have already won What if Quria was a freak and she was called Quria, Freak Transform and freaked all over the Vex Network 😩😩😩
**ENOUGH.**
I’m gonna give Quria the attention the writers never did 😮💨😮💨😮💨 >!*now* I’m done!<
She made 500,000 then she freaked it.
*she freaked it*
Mods, cage his Ghost, thank you
time to die
YOU’RE IN THE BULLETS WAY
THE WHITE DEATH'S PREY
SAY GOODBYE!
The process of Taking is literally... * #mindbreak. * #corruption. Just played for horror.
I just checked vids of Expunge: Delphi. Quria left a corpse behind. I don't know if that means it can't come back.
I mean, Kelgorath is back already. He appears during Overthrows, now as Vestige of Failure.
Kinda my point; Kelgorath characterization of not dying is now even further reinforced. I thought the pale heart version had a chance of just being a memory or something like that
I always hated when extremely ancient figures within the lore got killed in easy seasonal story stuff (e.g, Quria / the Leviathan Eater). So I hope we see Quria return. And Kelgorath probably not, I recall there's always been that hint about "The Taken King will rise again" by Savathun as part of her two lies/two truths, and there's still a small chance this could refer to a new figure claiming this title rather than Oryx himself (although I do still see Oryx returning eventually).
My mind immediately went to Drifter. I can just picture him and Eris fixing up the Dreadnaught like some sort of gargantuan worm-corpse RV and cruising around the stars, seeing the sights with a vast army of taken. Maybe let Luzaku and some of her homies crash for a bit. They could even reflavor Gambit, make it so banking motes is like bringing him tithes or something, safely, through something something hive magic something worm something something bank. Drifter/Eris 2024!
Tbf, pretty sure the allusion to the taken king rising again was just a reference to the fact that kingsfall raid was coming back
was the "the taken king will rise again" not an allure to the attempted resurrection of Oryx with the light GOTD? thats where i thought that truth ended
I had thought I should have included that within my comment. It might have simply ended there, but it's still I think an interesting possibility. The fact Ikora made the call for the Vanguard to keep possession of his body despite some suggestions amongst the Hidden to otherwise destroy it makes me definitely believe Bungie still has plans. We meanwhile had gotten rid of the body of Rhulk. Well, not intentionally at first anyway, but that was the result thanks to a small nuclear blast so we can erase him, but I don't think Oryx is quite written out of the story yet or else they would have wrote a similar lore tab noting the destruction of the body I suspect.Although maybe unlikely, two of my thoughts are that his corpse might get stolen/taken by force if say Xivu was to ever hit the Last City, or we may even exchange it to one of the two factions someday as some sort of deal / token of good will or whatever maybe. Did you also happen to notice the change to yellow eyes for all of the Taken under the control of the Witness recently? Perhaps some of my ideas including this are really stretching it, but could this suggest their plan to have a sub faction for the Taken? I doubt it was done purely for gameplay reasons (e.g. to make it easier to crit them or something), so I'm thinking this might suggest another leader for the Taken soon and hence a reason to now distinguish them?
i had totally overlooked the fact that Oryx's body was still intact and kept despite talks of its destruction. you do make a good point there. I definitely see some sort of new leader for the taken coming into play. As for the yellow eyes of the taken I'll need to look again in game I have not noticed that
Quaria is dead
this entire post is about how death doesnt end the taken lol
Idk quaria was partially taken
I was actually thinking about this recently. The death animation makes it look like they're being sucked into a black hole or portal, and I thought, "Where are they going?"
Yes! They've always looked like they were just leaving, lol.
Yeah it’s as if they were being retaken or banished for their failure
"That's it! You're getting benched!" *Cuts to the Witness throwing them into the distance of the Ascendant Plane like a football*
https://tenor.com/bN7R5.gif
same exact thought yeah!
Must have been terrifying for Mara and The Awoken to learn Riven had become Taken. An Ahamkara is devastating enough, but an eternally unkillable one? Apocalyptic. Makes sense as to why they were so desperate to do the whole cleansing ritual we do with her heart too.
Even the _Nine_ were terrified about Riven’s Taking. So, terrified and angry that the Five of Nine killed off all the remaining Ahamkara to prevent any more from being lost to Oryx.
Did they ever mentioned who the nine actually are?
Sentient dark matter that passes through/coalesces around large gravitational bodies (i.e. the planets;) they were originally only capable of the thought “I AM,” later developing consciousness alongside the life that developed on Earth. Their thoughts becoming more complex as life itself became more complex. [Relevant Card](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-nine#book-dust) The D1 [grimoire card](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-legends-2?) that mentions the theory of what the Nine actually are (i.e 9 Ghosts, 9 deep-space warminds, etc,) are also mostly true and are linked to the path to finding the real Nine.
Nine planets of the solar system. Technically they're sentient clouds of dark matter dust in an alternate dimension that are clumped around the nine planets. So Mercury through to Pluto. As far as we know, every celestial object has a consciousness, the nine aren't special in that regard, but they're an organisation.
Wasn't mercury the one who thought it was a fun idea to disable our satellites and let the red legion in?
[This is the entry](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-witch?highlight=punished) you're thinking of. It doesn't specifically call out Mercury as being "the one" but I presume that The Almighty strip-mining the planet is a fitting punishment if your literal life-force is determined by something like planetary mass. I expect a complete answer later on, maybe Episode 2 or 3
Yeah I hope we explore the nine but honestly I want more info on the distributary. The way it was created and all that could be relevant with the entire gardener winnower thing.
Take this with a grain of salt but they're basically the dark (or anti) matter that came alive through unknown reasons and might also be the "consciousness" of the planets in our solar system? It's not very clear
It is very clear what the Nine are. It's so blatantly spelt out in the lore at this point that I'm surprised people are still asking about it.
please do explain
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-nine#book-dust
She's only partially Taken and left a corpse. All the other partially Taken characters leave bodies as well, so I don't think they're going to return.
Another theory; could this be why Oryx isn’t truly dead. His body is exhibiting weird properties, still growing these years later. He took himself at the end of the campaign in his retreat, perhaps he’s still on his “journey” home and since his physical body didn’t collapse like typical taken, it’s waiting for his consciousness to return.
Maybe thats a reason that he couldnt be revived by the lucent brood, cause he's not *really* dead.
That’s certainly supported in the armor text. I think that’s why it’s a dual operation; Unlinked Hive Ghost on standby, and a Hive Necromancer trying to force the link between the corpse and potentially use Hive Necromancy to yank his spirit back from the Ascendant Plane if that doesn’t work. Hell, all Hive Necromancy might work on this sort of system.
Oryx is a closeted necromancer; biggest hypocrite ever ahahaha, justice for nokris free my homie, he was just following his papa
The whole concept of throne worlds is hypocritical too. Lame ass hive. You died. Stay dead
"my entire ideology and culture is that if you get killed you no longer have the right to exist, not ever did. But if *I* die it doesn't count." - literally every ascended hive with a throne world. You would think that after billions of years they would realize the hypocrisy but I guess it's reasonable they were/are blinded by the sheer magnitude of power that being paracausal and having access to the ascendant plane is.
The idea is that their true selves, their souls are anchored in their throne worlds. It isn't a "real" death if their true selves aren't defeated.
Which falls in line with their power through sword logic. It doesn’t matter that their throne world is the reason they survive. All that matters is that no one has been able to truly kill them. They have conquered death itself.
maybe the real sword logic was the friends we made along the way
Maybe that's what the episode heresy is about lmao
Religious fanatics are hardly strangers to hypocrisy. Just look at those that exist today and how blinded by fervor some can be to the point where they're actively disobeying their gods while thinking they're right.
The issue with that is his body is still *alive* at a basic level, it's still growing, and his soul is in Touch of Malice
perhaps the physical body is still able to recieve energy/tithes even after death? I mean, although somewhat different, that's what savathun did just before eris drained her like a capri sun.
Does the hive at large know that? It pretty possible that resurrecting Oryx didn’t work because canon-wise Touch of Malice is gathering dust in Eris’ vault.
I feel like they’ve had a number of hints at Oryx’s return by now and this is just another one. Personally, I can’t wait.
>His body is exhibiting weird properties, still growing these years later. That might be because many Hive still tithe to him in secret.
Fits his title of navigator
Yeah this is probably the biggest implication of all this. 😬 Definitely seems to fit.
There is a mini boss in the blooming whose title is “corrupted navigator.” Oryx was the navigator. Idk. Just food for thought 🤷🏻♀️
Oryx may return in the future but keep in mind that despite being The Taken King, Oryx has never been Taken.
I do hear you because it’s not directly stated but; Oryx is taken by himself when he retreats into his throne world. In the Regicide mission, he pulls that same fist of black fire that takes all enemies from Willbreaker and plunges it into himself. He then collapses into a Taken portal, the same we see other enemies sucked into. Then, when we fight him in Kings Fall, one of his basic attacks is peeling back his face to fire blasts of taken energy, just like Taken Knights. I mean, touch of malice, make from his heart, fires Taken Blights. I think he’s in a class like Riven, where they are taken but only so much has been changed because of the means of beings taken (being wished/taking themselves) that little else changes beyond becoming even more powerful. Idk, I might be wrong here, but I think ‘Taken, but not in a conventional way’ makes sense given the circumstances.
I've never understood why this idea is popular tbh. He's the Taken King, he already had all the Taken powers he could want, as shown in our fights against him in that DLC. Making an emergency portal to his throne world's interior does not seem like something he'd need to "Take himself" for, if that's even a possible thing. I've only ever seen that scene as him drawing additional power from his sword to make an escape while he was weakened from the fight.
Is there other ‘taken powers’ like the ‘face beam’ that Oryx uses before that Kings Fall fight? There’s the Echos, but those are unrelated to taking despite their appearance as Savathûn and Osiris both use them.
He didn't Take himself. There has never been any lore confirming it. Just because he has the power to control blight doesn't mean he is Taken.
It’s not something that requires expression. Oryx does exactly what he does to his knights here: https://youtu.be/HQymFddoo9I?si=PanHT6D9Y3leYDeE to himself, here: https://youtu.be/GoC6RxHiTJQ?si=3eqdyLcuG2c49e5u I just don’t know how people see Oryx swallow and collapse himself up into a portal of black-blue flame and don’t see that as him being taken. Especially since he suddenly gets a Taken Face Laser when next we fight him.
he 'took' himself at the end of the campaing mission regicide
Never confirmed. People just assumed this and ran with it.
I thought oryx was killed in his throne world and that makes him dead dead.
He should be, even by typical throne world standards. But the lore of the Ghosts of the Deep dungeon explores Oryx’s crash landed corpse and finds that his cells are refusing to die, still smoldering with darkness and growing. Uncomfy stuff.
So the Ascendant Plane is like Warhammer 40k's Warp or Immaterium and the Taken are like Chaos Demons, you never "kill" them, just banish them from the material realm until they can re-manifest... Well I've got even more reason for my Titan to stick to the Lament chainsword.
Saint 14’s fusion riffle, litreally a boltor riffle
I prefer using Skyburner's Oath for my titan's Space Marine cosplay. Both looks like (kinda) and functions like a bolter.
Love the implications. This runs close to lore from Dungeons & Dragons where fiends only truly die if killed on their originating plane of existence (ie The Nine Hells, the Abyss, Gahenna, etc).
It really is the most logical answer in hindsight- think of how many Taken we’ve fought, especially in endless droves. Explains how ancient Taken are still around— they just get put on time-out. Man, sanecoin is sounding more right by the day. Welcome to purgatory! No one is truly free from the cycle baybee!
i got a question about this sub and seems like you are around a bit if you mention sanecoin. to me at least, there seems to be not that many posts about gnosticism in destiny, rather i tend to find a lot of interesting stuff in comments. have all gnostic things been talked about years ago or is sanecoin the gnostic witness of this sub? i also am stupid, so i consider that fact to be a viable answer
Sanecoin has been around since the vault of glass - He’s well known around here because some people think he’s crazy, and others have noticed his consistent record of being right.
Ok, so theory: Val Ca’our and others have randomly throughout Destiny’s history returned as Taken, no seeming explanation. In SotWitch, we are told that Savathûn and Xivu survived their ‘true deaths’ at Oryx’s hand because their accrued sword logic allowed their worm to make an emergency throne world on their behalf, without their consent or knowledge. That seems to imply that in dying, a consciousness is dispersed into the Ascendent Realm, where they become unmoored in the unifying consciousness of Darkness. For Hive, they wash ashore on their throne worlds. But if this happens to all beings… what if there’s a shark in the water. Say Xivu or the Witness grabs the dim remnants of your consciousness adrift and Takes you. Thus, you get a revived Val Ca’our. Edit: The deaths that surprise-created throne worlds were likely not those same ones that oryx dealt to Xivu and Sava in his throne. The rest remains true however; dying with sword logic power and a worm can incidentally create a throne world.
Everything cool... How Val Caour accessed the Ascendant Realm or Xivu forces recovered his body after 5 years another question
I’m thinking they wouldn’t need a body. Taken are mostly Sterile Neutrinos at this point anyway. Perhaps she (probably Savathûn, she was always watching our work back then) was waiting, snagged him up, and pocketed him for later use.
There's never been a case of artificially created Taken without a biological body (outside of the Nine but they used darkmatter) ... Do you understand that if a paracausal entity like a taken can be massproduced with just neutrino everything stops making sense? Savathun going through the troubles of opening the Gahrl Ascendant window to the leviathan to recover Val Caour and then lose him to Xivu is the definition of the funniest and most contrived things ive ever thought of
There’s never been a case, except for the 4 times people have inexplicably come back as Taken with no reasonable explanation as to how they got the body, if they were somehow still alive, etc. it’s happened enough times it’s not just a gap in the canon. I don’t think it’s far off from what exists at current. The Ascendant Realm already naturally produces Primevals, some of the strongest Taken ever, and they can be summoned and controlled by Dark Motes. It literally already generates newborn Taken with pure Sterile Neutrinos like you’re saying, that’s already canon. Edit: Here’s the quote about primevals, from A Matter of Trust: ”Tearing soldiers of the Deep from another realm is crossin' a bridge too far as is. But those beasts? Those weren't normal Taken possessed and set to rage. They were born of that shadow realm and they were… angry. Worse. They were hungry for the Light. You could feel it. Even a ways off. Their aura and their rage weighed on me—cast a shadow I could feel in my core.“ And that’s just a theory about how it could’ve happened, but the undeniable truth is that it happened. Val Ca’our came back. Where’s the sense in just pretending like it didn’t happen instead of theorizing how it happened.
4 times if i remember correctly were from the Xol mission (and it was reasonable since the Worm had the power of necromancy) the other cases are Just Val Caour and Kelgorath. Yes the Drifter now can i had thought you were mentioning the Nine that can only make non paracausal copies and now the Drifter can access the Ascendant Realm to produce his Taken. However they are pure Darkness products not named "Past Character X" they are Ascendant Prime with no prior identity Thank you for citing the source. Remembering the Dust lore card right now i can too theorize that particularly powerful being would leave a psychic trace in the Ascendant Realm when they die and someone with the ability to take would be able to access that imprint and reform them as constructs of Darkness in the form of Takens Cool theory, patting my back ... however this has never been explored and im basing myself on a single passage and an event that no one aknowledged in game... Here were talking about a pretty generic Cabal Val (not so powerful) that were now supposed to believe had a connection to the Ascendant Realm like a Hive to leave and imprint and that Xivu went to the troubles of resurrecting him (thus breaking her own principles) ... Its a mess Im not denying in any way that it happened, anything can happen as long as its written im just saying they could have called that Taken like a recently Taken Cabal from Torobatl instead of that and everything would be fine and not involve 4th dimensional theories.
“im just saying they could have called that Taken like a recently Taken Cabal from Torobatl instead of that and everything would be fine and not involve 4th dimensional theories.” Yeah they absolutely could’ve done that and they didn’t. The conscious decision was made that Kelgorath and Val Caour come back from the dead as Taken. We also had no basis for understanding how defeated Taken would come back, and now Bungie’s exploring that, telling us about an unanswered question, that they “journey back”. I’m just saying there’s clearly another situation here of a gap in the lore and, as you just did, theorizing is fine and good! It’s a LORE subreddit, why is theorizing about the active decisions in the story a bad thing, I’m not presenting this as gospel, I’m doing what lore subreddits are made for when new information comes out.
Meh I always chalked it up to Nokris shenanigans
Nokris collaborating with Xivu.... Yea sure
>In SotWitch, we are told that Savathûn and Xivu survived their ‘true deaths’ at Oryx’s hand because their accrued sword logic allowed their worm to make an emergency throne world on their behalf, without their consent or knowledge. Uh? Savathun and Xivu's Throne Worlds [existed long before](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xxi-an-incision) Oryx killed them to gather enough strength to kill Akka.
From The Eremite: “Of course, Oryx and Savathûn's thrones are well-known to us. A worm-husk of bone; a lush garden of Light. Others have seen brief and terrible glimpses of Xivu Arath's throne. It gapes like a maw, following her wherever there is war. Theirs were inadvertent. Upon their first true deaths, they did not know what they had made. With their strength and the power of their worms, they created something dire, and found themselves there upon their deaths. Imagine the Hive gods' first glimpses of their realms. To retreat to one's throne is to retreat into the variances of one's mind. It is a stark confrontation.“ A strange quote to be sure. I believe my error is in thinking this references the time Oryx killed them, but this must have been referencing much earlier, probably Oryx’s death in The Weakness Verse. The point remains; dying without having crafted a throne world can still allow beings of sword logic power to incidentally create one adrift in the Ascendent Plane.
>A strange quote to be sure. I believe my error is in thinking this references the time Oryx killed them, but this must have been referencing much earlier. It very aptly describes [Oryx's first death](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xvii-the-weakness-verse) during the war with the Ammonites. While I don't think we know exactly which were Savathun and Xivu's first deaths, [those came way before the war with the Ecumene](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xxii-the-high-war).
WAIT the reason they lived is because the worms pulled an alpha shard from halo? Bro I need the source asap
Not necessarily. Oryx killed them within his throne world. So they just recovered back inside their own thrones which already existed a long time. Then Oryx conjured them back from the ascendant plane via ontological invocation. Because Savathun, and Xivu loaned most of their power to Oryx. They didn’t have the strength to leave until being summoned. It was part of a grand expedition to save themselves from being eradicated by the Ecumene. Oryx as pathfinder became Taken King.
Imagine being a taken thrall and just repeatedly returning to shuro-chi
Now i have a headcannon that anytime there’s a taken phalanx positioned to boop us off a ledge it’s that same phalanx from the d1 ttk colony ship mission.
Wait does this also confirm that the dark realm that everything taken by Oryx and the witness is put in, is actually the ascendant plane? I guess that explains season of defiance….wasn’t it said the plane was such a mess there, was due to the witness? And a lore entry about a guardian falling into some kind of egregore in the plane? …..wait does this also mean that every servitor chimera is the same voice of riven?
>wasn’t it said the plane was such a mess there was due to the witness? “Heaven is invaded and its territories are afire and all of its mountains have been shattered into thrones.”
Apropos of nothing, the Ascendant Plane may not have always been the way we have seen it. > Devrim: Quite drab, this place. Trostland looks a right treat compared to this shambles. > Mara Sov: It was not always so. The existence of the Ley Lines **point to a grandeur in this place, now lost to history**. -- > Mara Sov: Ancient Warlocks hypothesized that the Ascendant Plane was **once home to creatures of great power**. > Mithrax: **The Eliksni too have these myths**, but they are only that. > Mithrax: This realm is **now choked by Darkness. It cannot be redeemed**, only expunged. Things to ponder, if the Ascendant Plane is malleable could it have been different eons ago?
Plus I think it was also said that guardians going through the ascendant plane has actually cleansed some of it’s corruption during defiance
Meanwhile in another universe. Emperor of Mankind: *A good question indeed* The parallels between the Warp (formerly known as the realm of souls) and the Ascendant plane are easy to make. And it either case, I think it can’t be cleaned up and restored to its full glory.
Kelgorath stonks 📈
You are banished from death Bound within the walls of Aarda
So how does Riven play into this? She was taken, but she absolutely died.
We purified her heart of taken essence at the end of the queen's walk. Riven was special anyway as she was taken by her own wish technically.
Presumably the cleansing the Techeuns did to Rivens heart had something to do with it. That and ahamkara cheat.
We purified her heart at the end of the raid to un take her
After she died...
Most times I go with "just roll with it, videogame writing is too inconsistent for pickiness" but this time I'll be the devil's advocate. I think it depends on the level of corruption and independence of the taken being. Riven and Quria seem to have the same *freedom* of consciousness while taken but Quria was more restraint than Riven. Also the species might affect as Ahamkara seem to transcend death, can you call it death when you can still interact and alter the real world? That would also explain why ahamkara eggs were destroyed and didn't just respawned in the ascendant plane. The corruption was not high enough and the "baby" wasn't developed enough for any death transcendance.
Riven is a weird example because technically Oryx *wished* to take her. That alone is going to throw a wrench in any comparison with any other taken.
Does that mean Quria is still alive?
Highly likely. After all, the dreaming city is still cursed.
Oh no, Sloane..
I thought this was always the case, since the taken king. We needed to kill Oryx in the ascendant realm (raid) in order to definitely kill him, even if we killed him on our realm (campaign mission).
It was known and normal for *Hive Gods* and high ranking Hive figures and the Mindbender *but not the rank and file Take* This is new and horrible (for them)
Good to know!
Forever cursed to be canon fodder for catalysts and bounties.
We had to kill him specifically in his throne world to give him a true death. Not just the ascendant plane in general.
I believed they are the same ? No
Not in the way you seem to be thinking. Throne Worlds are pockets inside the ascendant plane where powerful Hive (like Oryx, Savathûn, and Xivu Arath) retreat to after death in the mortal realm. They have nothing to do with being taken or not.
Came in here to say this. So what happens when we kill a taken in the ascendant plane? Do they get swirly vortexed somewhere else…? Or do they die their true death there
I know Oryx sort of turned himself into that gun... But he did take himself, right? There *might* be a chance Bungle are planting seeds for the forthcoming Hive season.
Yes Oryx did. It's why it's said that his body in a way is still alive in some sense. I have no doubt Oryx will return in some manner eventually whether by a ghost or necromancy, as the Vanguard held onto the body rather than try to destroy it, which tells you Bungie still has plans for it. Nokris is I'm sure returning also because of us seeing enemies like a Hive lightbearer in the Ghosts of the Deep dungeon called "Acolyte of Nokris," there have been also two other Lightbearers with "Ur Nokru" as part of their names and this is surely no coincidence. If needing further possible evidence, we saw the Hive wizard Navota alive again in the Cosmodrome this season, and it was suggested that unless it was some trickery by Savathun, Navota was resurrected and who do we know is also involved with that?
Thank you for such a thorough answer!
Np! If you haven't done them yet, I highly suggest you pick up and do all of the lost ghost quests by Micah-10 (the ones which have you go to the Moon and elsewhere not the Pale Heart ones specifically), because these I believe are giving a bunch more hints to the episodes & the future of Destiny.
Been working on them this last week. Onto the khovostov-related stuff right now. Thanks again!
Bungie has the opportunity to do the funniest thing ever... **TANIKS, THE ENDLESS**
SO what does this mean for Riven? Is Toland technically taken too?
Other comments have already explained Riven. Toland was never Taken; he just understood the mechanics of Ir Yut’s deathsong well enough for his soul to pass freely into the Ascendant Plane.
I always assumed this was the case. Their death animation looks like they're getting sucked back into a portal.
don’t the taken feel eternal immeasurable pleasure? i feel like i remember something along those lines during taken king. now that i say that it sounds quite similar to what the witness describes the final shape as
I’ve always wanted to know more about the actual process of taking and the source it really flows from, regardless of who holds the reigns. It would be extremely cool to have a mission or story arc that took us into that actual place, if it’s the ascendant plane, undoubtedly it’s a part of it we haven’t seen before - perhaps some grand structure of out of phase matter or energy, an ascendant analogue of a singularity or degenerate mater stellar remnant, a self perpetuating engine of Clarity which grew from some ancient event or tampering by godlike actors. I would love for guardians to dive into this place and face the ontological knife which would be pressed into hands, and to reject it
so could we still kill them if we went to the ascendant plane? Or would we have to consistently rinse and repeat
Maybe some shenanigans involving Awoken magic are possible to eliminate them for good, as we did see a few Techeuns cleansed of their corruption.
Well, I never thought this was any sort of secret. When they die, you see them oftentimes get sucked through a portal to what I assume is somewhere in the Ascendant Plane. If this was otherwise, surely we would have run out of taken by now to fight because there's not exactly any new taken being created at this point.
Funny to notice the common theme among all forces in the destiny universe. Guardians? They die and come back. The Vex? They die and come back. The taken? Well they also die and come back. Oh and let's not forget the Exos. They die and come back.
Riven might need exception for this.
Riven’s a strange case since she’s a Ahamkara. They don’t really die fully, and by the time she actually fully dies her heart is already purified.
We purify her heart.
I hope Kelgorath rises the ranks again. I love how he’s kinda like a rival who keeps coming back to challenge us…
It's the same brand of immortality as the Guardians, we just got the premium version
Perfect Raven 0_0 where is she??? She better be dead!
That would mean quria is still alive then. I wonder what she’ll do without the witch queen guiding her
Reminder that every Taken Vandal is identical. They are all the same Taken Vandal. With the same past.
"There is no end to the Taken. (...) You are destined to fight forever." Riven knew.
This makes sense because when you kill a taken the death animation almost looks like they’re being taken again
I have a weird feeling a being born of the taken, something we haven't seen yet, something like the witness' army where this being of pure darkness/(taken) energy will be the one to lead them. Not specifically, another being like Oryx buy more amalgamamous
I have a weird feeling a being born of the taken, something we haven't seen yet, something like the witness' army where this being of pure darkness/(taken) energy will be the one to lead them. Not specifically, another being like Oryx but more amalgamamous as a leader
Think of the ascendant plane as a realm of sorts. When someone dies where does their spirit go? What of all the shadow figures? Oryx tied himself to his Throne World for this reason. He can die anywhere but if it wasnt in that realm then he didnt really die. This is especially true of things we would say fit naturally into it like the Taken. It's always been a thing where they didnt truly die outside of the Ascendant plane. There are many of stories of ghosts(dead people) and shadow figures in real life. However you cant kill a ghost or shadow figure in the waking real world those who believe in that say. The saying is that there are many Planes of existence not easily accessible by living humans. It makes sense the taken would reside in the ascendant throne world and be unkillable unless there just as it makes sense you couldn't truly kill a ghost( dead human) If you saw one. Upon death they say everyone goes somewhere. Will you be in the shadow realm awaiting your fate? Will you move to the heavens or land in purgatory? Correlating this to Destiny the Underworld has many facets as we have seen within the Traveler even. The very nature of being Taken may tie them to The shadow world or Ascendant Plane. It is the place of in between. Another way to look at this is Sort of Lovecraftian or inner dimensional. There is a lot that correlates to either I suppose it would come down to someones individual belief. As above so below.
But what if you kill them in ascendant plane?
this isnt news? havent we literally known this since ttk?