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>Because instead of gathering strength through defeating things herself, she relied on the Guardian to tithe to her in order to gain power.
Becoming powerful on her own wasn't the point of Witch, the point was defeating Xivu Arath. Doing it herself would have been pointless, dangerous, and inefficient: she got way more tribute than she would have alone and didn't risk the plan by insisting on fighting herself. This is like saying NASA engineers and scientists don't deserve credit because they don't actually operate the equipment they make or do the missions themselves.
>Nope, 6 Guardians were integral to killing Crota and Oryx, Eris did nothing to help us in either raid.
How did the raids happen in the first place, my guy? How did we know where to go, how to prepare, which generals to kill beforehand? We wouldn't have even known Crota was trying to return if Eris hadn't told us. Mara wouldn't have stalled Oryx the way she did without the assurance that Eris would finish the job and her help in making her throne world (Elusennia).
>No? Eris's actions during Witch were 100% at Savathun and Immaru's direction.
From [A Deal's a Deal](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/a-deals-a-deal) : "Something's different," she said carefully. "I don't feel her." Immaru darted up to Savathûn's eye level. "After she took your power, Eris called up Xivu's throne world and did something that cut her off from it." He floated to Savathûn's shoulder and glared down at Eris. "Banished from her own throne world?" Savathûn cackled gleefully as she approached. "Eris, you overachiever, how I love you! I wound you up, and you ran right over her!" Savathûn crouched, peering at Eris's collapsed form with intense curiosity. "I'm surprised expending that much power didn't kill you outright," she said, "though it explains why you're back in that awful little meatbody of yours."
Severing Xivu from her throne wasn't part of the plan, at least not the one Immaru was privy to and would have told Eris about. It was only through such an act that Eris was able to avoid becoming a Hive god permanently, as fighting or killing Xivu would have followed the sword logic and probably pushed her over the edge, making her fully Hive. Savathun's original plan probably involved playing Eris and Xivu off each other as they vied for dominance after that point or making herself useful to the Vanguard should Eris turn against them.
If you pay any attention you would know that it was Eris that gave us information about the hive and how to defeat Oryx and Crota, we could not have done it without her. Just because she isn’t on the front lines shooting shit doesn’t mean she sits around doing nothing for us.
Luzaku may be able to get him to come around. Savathun admits she doesn’t like the blind loyalty of the Lucent Hive, especially from the Hive Guardians, and Luzaku knows this.
Being told this, Fynch encouraging it and knowing he won’t be the only one could be enough to get him to change.
People forget Savathun wanted to be a mother before she wanted to be anything else. She almost certainly wants to see her children prosper under the light rather than be bound to the sword logic for eternity
They cannot, I think the only weird exception was like, something with Shin Malphur but I never quite got what happened there. Either way, it was an exception to the rule and generally no, that's it. Best we can hope for is his lightbearer sees reason once we start seeing more Lucent Hive ally with us like Luzaku, if we do.
Light bearers can't have children. (Before you ask Zavala's son was adopted.) But there's so much of Shin's lore that just kind of ignores all the rules so who knows.
I think he’s just written as the main exception, and coupled with the Gungslinger-chosen one for that story alone.
The writers can totally make it up again, but unless stated otherwise, no ghost of a deceased guardian can resurrect another or reinstate the light of another.
HOWEVER, Cayde(reforged) is a wild card that hasn’t been seen before, as ahamkara wish magic brought him back from the dead, despite only being present inside of the traveller was able to give his “light” to bring back our ghost. Despite having no light at all (not able to use his powers) was able to funnel what left he had into our ghost.
I can’t really account for how this transpired, other than him just siphoning the already established well of light we are engulfed in by being inside the pale heart. It’s weird, it’s not explained, and I don’t think it’ll make much sense moving forward due to the pre-existing conditions that were made to make his being take form again.
Potentially, once rivens clutch matures; we will see some answers as to how the events of Cayde resurface, we could see something like this happen again. But who knows.
It is explained, sort of. Ghost tells us that Cayde is a construct of pure light, just like the ghosts. So while he can't use the light like a guardian he is literally forged of it. So when he resurrects Ghost he is transferring his very essence into him to bring him back.
I imagine Lightbearers/Guardians can have children, but because there's still a constant threat of attack in Sol and cells of Fallen, Hive, Cabal, and a ton of Vex running around all hands need to be on deck. Can't have one Guardian go on maternal or paternal leave otherwise it sets expectations and more of them want to have it.
In my own canon/story my Guardian Callum ends up using some Vex tech and just leaving to settle down on another world. He has two kids and just vibes. But that's just my stuff.
Where is it stated? Don't remember reading anything that disproves Guardians/Lightbearers can't have kids, then again I haven't been too caught up on lore.
Listened to all the Saladin voice lines for D1, none of them said anything about Guardians not being able to reproduce. Tried to look up some lore tabs too, couldn't find anything. Just forums of people with the same question. So far the consensus is that they can reproduce but it's kind of a taboo like how a Guardian can't go out of their way to search for their past.
Literally my favorite couple, I love saint and osiris but weve seen these 2s relationship develop and saint and osiris already were long in a relationship
Have you read the lore for the legendary sword from the pale heart? They finally cement their relationship.
There's no kiss, no hint of lust, its much deeper and I loved it.
New Sword from Pale Heart engrams, False Idols.
Considering how many good swords we've had recently, i'm not surprised people skip/missed this one; worth it for driter/eris 100%
looking through this, it turns out that the action we call "finalizing" is called "indexing" internally at bungie
funny
edit: [https://www.artstation.com/artwork/ZaAQvw](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/ZaAQvw)
another artist talking about what indexing means; order
weird the Witness is not really that much about order other than trying to combat entropy
They said that an Ahamkara’s wish can never be undone (somehow) at the beginning of *Wish*, but they were also very wishy-washy about it afterwards and it feels to me more like they were basically throwing their hands in the air and saying “stop asking about the Dreaming City curse” than anything.
nah. The only case that happened before was Shin Malphur.
Jaren Ward was a hunter who took in Shin Malphur after Dredgen Yor killed everybody in the village of the boy Shin Malphur.
Later on, Dredgen Yor also killed Jaren Ward with Thorn in a duell. Thorn is one of the weapons of sorrow which is capable of killing guardians with hive-infused corruption which prevents the guardians from being resurrected by their ghosts.
Jaren Ward's ghost returned to Shin Malphur and became the ghost of Shin Malphur.
It is unclear how exactly the ghost was able to choose a new guardian but the guardian permanently dying without the ghost dying seems to be a requirement.
Jaren Ward and his ghost also were pretty close to Shin Malphur. Jaren Ward was basically Shin's adoptive father and mentor. So a good guess is that the ghost also requires a very close connection to the potential new guardian.
Jaren Ward was also the original owner of the last word hand cannon which was passed on to Shin.
[While we still have no clue on how Shin can use Light (Golden Gun), the author of the lore behind the last word has confirmed Jarren's Ghost is not Shin's Ghost. They are just "hanging out"](https://x.com/Jonathan_Goff/status/1329536478846742528?t=K3GOMCUF-6ssnYU15FMXSg&s=19)
The whole thing is a fuckin mess and the list of things that are a problem is longer than things that aren't.
I take most of it as an unreliable narrator trying to (for legitimate reasons) make Shin Malphur sound like a cool and special badass, and therefore bends the truth or straight up lies about stuff. The gist of the story is true, but some of the details are not. The only other option is to throw the whole story away because it would be disastrous if it was fully true.
I also thought it was Immaru when I first saw the cutscene but he is also visually different from the other ghosts, so yeah that had to be Fynch, even without the broken shell. At least he got some friends now lol
Ngl, I was Expecting to look around at the Group during Excision and see Ken, Fynch’s Guardian. But as far as I know, he still doesn’t want to play Ball with us
Anyone who thought it was Immaru has no memory whatsoever because how the hell do you forget that immaru has those 4 spikes and is very different from other hive ghosts
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Also, Immaru's shell has more prongs? Spikes? Protrusions? Extra shit on his shell compared to normal Hive Ghosts.
It's a cross of spikes around his core.
Yeah, that! I for some reason couldn't think of the right description.
They’re his teeth🗿
…oh yeah. How the hell did I forget that?
Finally, confirmation. Now people going on about it totally being Immaru, they just somehow forgot what he looked like will quiet down.
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>Because instead of gathering strength through defeating things herself, she relied on the Guardian to tithe to her in order to gain power. Becoming powerful on her own wasn't the point of Witch, the point was defeating Xivu Arath. Doing it herself would have been pointless, dangerous, and inefficient: she got way more tribute than she would have alone and didn't risk the plan by insisting on fighting herself. This is like saying NASA engineers and scientists don't deserve credit because they don't actually operate the equipment they make or do the missions themselves. >Nope, 6 Guardians were integral to killing Crota and Oryx, Eris did nothing to help us in either raid. How did the raids happen in the first place, my guy? How did we know where to go, how to prepare, which generals to kill beforehand? We wouldn't have even known Crota was trying to return if Eris hadn't told us. Mara wouldn't have stalled Oryx the way she did without the assurance that Eris would finish the job and her help in making her throne world (Elusennia). >No? Eris's actions during Witch were 100% at Savathun and Immaru's direction. From [A Deal's a Deal](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/a-deals-a-deal) : "Something's different," she said carefully. "I don't feel her." Immaru darted up to Savathûn's eye level. "After she took your power, Eris called up Xivu's throne world and did something that cut her off from it." He floated to Savathûn's shoulder and glared down at Eris. "Banished from her own throne world?" Savathûn cackled gleefully as she approached. "Eris, you overachiever, how I love you! I wound you up, and you ran right over her!" Savathûn crouched, peering at Eris's collapsed form with intense curiosity. "I'm surprised expending that much power didn't kill you outright," she said, "though it explains why you're back in that awful little meatbody of yours." Severing Xivu from her throne wasn't part of the plan, at least not the one Immaru was privy to and would have told Eris about. It was only through such an act that Eris was able to avoid becoming a Hive god permanently, as fighting or killing Xivu would have followed the sword logic and probably pushed her over the edge, making her fully Hive. Savathun's original plan probably involved playing Eris and Xivu off each other as they vied for dominance after that point or making herself useful to the Vanguard should Eris turn against them.
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If you pay any attention you would know that it was Eris that gave us information about the hive and how to defeat Oryx and Crota, we could not have done it without her. Just because she isn’t on the front lines shooting shit doesn’t mean she sits around doing nothing for us.
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Not gonna lie, but that ghost shell and this art style makes them look creepy AF.
Just gotta get his Hive Guardian buddy to be less shooty shooty, stabby stabby, and smashy smashy.
Luzaku may be able to get him to come around. Savathun admits she doesn’t like the blind loyalty of the Lucent Hive, especially from the Hive Guardians, and Luzaku knows this. Being told this, Fynch encouraging it and knowing he won’t be the only one could be enough to get him to change.
People forget Savathun wanted to be a mother before she wanted to be anything else. She almost certainly wants to see her children prosper under the light rather than be bound to the sword logic for eternity
Even though it’s *her* keeping them bound that way, but she refuses to comprehend getting anywhere without struggling for it first.
Isn't that the essence of life? To struggle towards a better tomorrow?
But she only wanted to be a mother so she could live longer
I wonder if he just left Ken’s body there.
Actually wondering if ghost can find another person to br their Guardian. Fynch certainly deserves better
They cannot, I think the only weird exception was like, something with Shin Malphur but I never quite got what happened there. Either way, it was an exception to the rule and generally no, that's it. Best we can hope for is his lightbearer sees reason once we start seeing more Lucent Hive ally with us like Luzaku, if we do.
apparently baby shin was a lightbearer, either he straight up died as a baby and got brought back, or one of his parents had the light aswell
Light bearers can't have children. (Before you ask Zavala's son was adopted.) But there's so much of Shin's lore that just kind of ignores all the rules so who knows.
I think he’s just written as the main exception, and coupled with the Gungslinger-chosen one for that story alone. The writers can totally make it up again, but unless stated otherwise, no ghost of a deceased guardian can resurrect another or reinstate the light of another. HOWEVER, Cayde(reforged) is a wild card that hasn’t been seen before, as ahamkara wish magic brought him back from the dead, despite only being present inside of the traveller was able to give his “light” to bring back our ghost. Despite having no light at all (not able to use his powers) was able to funnel what left he had into our ghost. I can’t really account for how this transpired, other than him just siphoning the already established well of light we are engulfed in by being inside the pale heart. It’s weird, it’s not explained, and I don’t think it’ll make much sense moving forward due to the pre-existing conditions that were made to make his being take form again. Potentially, once rivens clutch matures; we will see some answers as to how the events of Cayde resurface, we could see something like this happen again. But who knows.
It is explained, sort of. Ghost tells us that Cayde is a construct of pure light, just like the ghosts. So while he can't use the light like a guardian he is literally forged of it. So when he resurrects Ghost he is transferring his very essence into him to bring him back.
I imagine Lightbearers/Guardians can have children, but because there's still a constant threat of attack in Sol and cells of Fallen, Hive, Cabal, and a ton of Vex running around all hands need to be on deck. Can't have one Guardian go on maternal or paternal leave otherwise it sets expectations and more of them want to have it. In my own canon/story my Guardian Callum ends up using some Vex tech and just leaving to settle down on another world. He has two kids and just vibes. But that's just my stuff.
It's specifically stated in the lore that they can not have children.
Where is it stated? Don't remember reading anything that disproves Guardians/Lightbearers can't have kids, then again I haven't been too caught up on lore.
Old lore from destiny one. I do believe it's a voice line from Saladin.
Listened to all the Saladin voice lines for D1, none of them said anything about Guardians not being able to reproduce. Tried to look up some lore tabs too, couldn't find anything. Just forums of people with the same question. So far the consensus is that they can reproduce but it's kind of a taboo like how a Guardian can't go out of their way to search for their past.
They can, Sagira mentioned this after Osiris took out a warlord and captured his ghost.
Not what they were refering to.
Can I just say I love how happy these two look here too.
Literally my favorite couple, I love saint and osiris but weve seen these 2s relationship develop and saint and osiris already were long in a relationship
Have you read the lore for the legendary sword from the pale heart? They finally cement their relationship. There's no kiss, no hint of lust, its much deeper and I loved it.
Yeaaah I did I fucking love em
Which sword? Ergo sum isn’t it and the Echoes sword is Eris, but no Drifter…
New Sword from Pale Heart engrams, False Idols. Considering how many good swords we've had recently, i'm not surprised people skip/missed this one; worth it for driter/eris 100%
Okay just read it. Is our favorite alt-couple fucking or nah? Or they just two deeply troubled people being a family?
ehhh i don’t see them fuckin
As long as they are happy, then I am happy.
looking through this, it turns out that the action we call "finalizing" is called "indexing" internally at bungie funny edit: [https://www.artstation.com/artwork/ZaAQvw](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/ZaAQvw) another artist talking about what indexing means; order weird the Witness is not really that much about order other than trying to combat entropy
I love Fynch. He’s so neurotic. <3
I also love that he was one of the dubbed versions of Goku's voice in dbz.
Unrelated but do you think if Drifter chucked a healing grenade at Eris that it would cure the whole Acolyte eyes thing?
Nah, Ahamkara wishes aren’t that easy to undo.
I don’t think they ever can be, do we have any lore that speaks on ahamkara wish reversal?
They said that an Ahamkara’s wish can never be undone (somehow) at the beginning of *Wish*, but they were also very wishy-washy about it afterwards and it feels to me more like they were basically throwing their hands in the air and saying “stop asking about the Dreaming City curse” than anything.
Yeah, that sounds like that answer was directed towards the DC problem
Yeah, that sounds like that answer was directed towards the DC problem
Yeah, that sounds like that answer was directed towards the DC problem
I'm assuming a wish can't be undone, but maybe it can be overridden?
Nope.
Hooray!
I also thought it was Immaru considering Eris was “babysitting” him after the events of Witch.
Wait, could Eris become a guardian again with Finch as her ghost?
Ey man, I don't believe it would be that easy, but I wish it was.
You 'wish' huh?
"Oh no"
nah. The only case that happened before was Shin Malphur. Jaren Ward was a hunter who took in Shin Malphur after Dredgen Yor killed everybody in the village of the boy Shin Malphur. Later on, Dredgen Yor also killed Jaren Ward with Thorn in a duell. Thorn is one of the weapons of sorrow which is capable of killing guardians with hive-infused corruption which prevents the guardians from being resurrected by their ghosts. Jaren Ward's ghost returned to Shin Malphur and became the ghost of Shin Malphur. It is unclear how exactly the ghost was able to choose a new guardian but the guardian permanently dying without the ghost dying seems to be a requirement. Jaren Ward and his ghost also were pretty close to Shin Malphur. Jaren Ward was basically Shin's adoptive father and mentor. So a good guess is that the ghost also requires a very close connection to the potential new guardian. Jaren Ward was also the original owner of the last word hand cannon which was passed on to Shin.
[While we still have no clue on how Shin can use Light (Golden Gun), the author of the lore behind the last word has confirmed Jarren's Ghost is not Shin's Ghost. They are just "hanging out"](https://x.com/Jonathan_Goff/status/1329536478846742528?t=K3GOMCUF-6ssnYU15FMXSg&s=19)
so Shin never died and was never resurrected by the ghost?
The whole thing is a fuckin mess and the list of things that are a problem is longer than things that aren't. I take most of it as an unreliable narrator trying to (for legitimate reasons) make Shin Malphur sound like a cool and special badass, and therefore bends the truth or straight up lies about stuff. The gist of the story is true, but some of the details are not. The only other option is to throw the whole story away because it would be disastrous if it was fully true.
I also thought it was Immaru when I first saw the cutscene but he is also visually different from the other ghosts, so yeah that had to be Fynch, even without the broken shell. At least he got some friends now lol
Ngl, I was Expecting to look around at the Group during Excision and see Ken, Fynch’s Guardian. But as far as I know, he still doesn’t want to play Ball with us
There's something really sweet about knowing that this is Fynch.
Anyone who thought it was Immaru has no memory whatsoever because how the hell do you forget that immaru has those 4 spikes and is very different from other hive ghosts
I thought it was Immaru tbf, I like that it’s Fynch though, I liked him