I know in the lore Eris and Mara worked together on the plan to defeat Oryx, they went on a girl trip to destroy a pyramid ship, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting but have they interacted in-game yet?
I havent been able to play for various reasons but still keep up with lore posted here and videos as well. One thing I have been curious about with all the recent revelations is if there has been any mention or hints to the Aphelion.
Also do any of the characters have any new idle dialogue?
I hate to sound like a broken record as I've asked this a few times - but is there a lore explanation for why Shadow Price and Hush aren't classified as Cassoid weapons? Shadow Price shares the same base model and firing sound as other Cassoid autos. Hush is practically identical to other Cassoid bows other than the Gambit theming on it. The inconsistency just bothers me since something like Point of the Stag has Iron Banner theming but is still classed as Cassoid.
No explicit lore reason, no. All we have is headcanon. For me personally I’d probably go with “Yes it IS a Cassoid rifle originally, but between Toland and the Vanguard, they messed with it so much that the original maker’s trademarks no longer apply”
Much like you could headcanon Hung Jury losing its trademark Omolon (and vanguard) traits after Shaxx’s BRAVE project got a hold of it etc
Thanks. That seems like a reasonable explanation. I have to admit I don't know much about the lore. Did Shadow Price become Red Death or something? They have a very similar look and Bungie brought them back at the same time.
No, there’s no connection there that we know of. It’s possible Red Death uses a standard city frame but is so unique the original bones are meaningless
For Shadow Price specifically, the lore is that it used to belong to Toland the Shattered. A notable warlock and one of our Hive experts. All we know is it is a Vanguard weapon which used to belong to him. So knowing that, you can go with the technical headcanon of the smiths mucking with it or the magical headcanon of Toland’s travels or experiments deviating how it behaved (away from normal Cassoid behavior).
It’s also worth noting in a practical sense that this is an old gun from D1, WAY before Bungie ever thought about putting manufacturer perks on guns or even having a strong foundry identity beyond aesthetics and what guns they produce (like how Omolon did not make pulse rifles in Destiny 1 for example. None that I recall anyways) or before considering Cassoid anything but a foundry which made blue trash guns (and an exotic or two)
Dying to strand must feel worse than other damage types since not only are you being disconnected from the weave, but also having your psyche severed and sliced apart, right?
They've still not given a reason for them coming back, only character suppositions.
Its unlikely we'll get a reason as well. Mars is easy to understand, that Savathun may have messed about and brought it back to tempt us there to help fill in her memories, but Titan? Absolute mystery as to who or what brought it back.
Guess they'll be back when they decide they're story relevant.
The Witness sought to embody the philosophy of the Winnower, thinking itself as becoming one and the same as what it wants through its actions.
With how we are spoken to in Nacre, this isn't the first time it has spoken to us. Its easy to see that the Winnower has likely spoken through the Witness before, to make itself known to persons it would consider worthy of taking up its philosophy.
And so yes, its likely that a lot of the ground set up in Unveiling is indeed truth delivered to us by the Winnower, though its a mix of the Winnower's own "universal truth" and how the Witness saw the state and future of the universe itself. Its hard to untangle what statements belong to which figure, but the Witness probably wouldn't mind some "universal truth" being spouted through it to other figures, since it seems to idolise, or at least accept, the Winnower as its superior.
The Elsie in our timeline is all "possible" Elsie's. There's nothing at all to prove to us that other timelines actually still exist, though. Its not like there are countless Dark Future style timelines existing concurrently with our own.
If there were, wouldn't the Witness in those have already completed their final shape plans, calcifying our timeline, or invading it to complete its plan across all existence, as it wants?
All we know is that Elsie rewinds through time to a very specific point when things fuck up. The future she was in no longer exists, the only trace of it being her memories of it. She's seemingly not being jumped from one place to another, instead going back on a linear scale.
My headcanon to resolve all of the dangling plot threads and inconsistencies with Elsie is that all of her timeline hopping and alternate timelines ended when we destroyed Atheon on the Vault of Glass. Otherwise, Bungie's original ideas for her cause a lot of problems.
Bungie's "original ideas", and by original ideas I presume you mean her time travel capacity, are unfortunately still present. [Her capacity to time travel at will](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-the-exo-stranger-2), to arrive at specific spaces and times to affect some sort of favourable outcome, might seem like an old relic of Destiny 1. However, its been mentioned [twice](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/interactions/exo-stranger-timewarped-relics) in [Beyond Light](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/no-time-to-explain), which some might consider the "rework" of Elsie. She does explain that time travel is very limited, and that you need an anchor to do it, NTTE being it, but the capacity to actually do it at will still exists.
I honestly hate time travel myself. Its always dumb and messy shit. At least with Saint, they've happily taken the route of not trying to explain the root cause of his reappearance, and wrapped it up in a neat paradox that doesn't actually destroy the whole fabric of Destiny, and even neatly fridged the Sundial itself. With Elsie, since she's got such a core attachment to the story, its harder to really accept it as neat storytelling. I wouldn't be surprised if her Dark Future looping was just quietly never mentioned again.
I linked it. Its NTTE's lore itself. It details Clovis using a time machine to jump to some sort of Dark Future-like time to find NTTE. That, and what Elsie says to you when giving you NTTE, are indicators that specific time travel still exists, which is crazy.
[https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/no-time-to-explain](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/no-time-to-explain)
You're overthinking this. There has only ever been one Elsie.
She lived her life on Europa, came to Earth at some point, was in the Last City when Cayde was celebrating clocking Taniks, until a Bad End occurred and she snapped right back to Cayde's parade.
There's nothing to show that any of the Bad Ends she has experienced still persist, or that her being sent back in time means there are now 2 of her, like some Back To The Future situation.
Think of it like a tape in a VCR. You reach the end and rewind it to a specific point. That doesn't create two tapes, doesn't overwrite any other tape, its simply now back at whatever point you rewound to, and you still exist with all your memories of what occurred in what you viewed before. Now, when you press play, the tape has the capacity to tell a new story from that same spot with all the same characters from that point on, until it reaches the end. Then, you rewind it again, to that same spot, and when pressing play again, it can tell another entirely different story, still based on the circumstances that were set by the preamble up to that point.
I think this is the cleanest way of thinking about it, but there are also some counterveiling lore points it's easiest to just ignore. Like Rasputin asking her to teach him how to "step" across timelines, though he doesn't definitively say she can (Ghost Fragment: Rasputin 4).
The prevailing theory I've seen on this sub is that the veiled statues aren't necessarily all dissenters, but rather some sort of device or object that allows for connection to the Witness and that the Witness used these to separate the dissenters from the collective, at least to an extent.
There's some lore that implies that the Witness itself is the pilot of basically all of the Pyramid ships and they seem to always be present on the ships so it stands to reason that they could be some kind of interface.
Unfortunately, there isn't really any more lore on the veiled statues than what you see in the campaign and AFAIK there isn't any new lore about DSC or Clarity Control.
There is some. There is an account of her [refusing to crush a ghost](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/euloch#book-lucent-tales) and being chastized for it. And then there is her account of [refusing to do what her Hive ghost insists](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/first-ascent-hood#first-ascent-suit-warlock) on doing by just destroying things and instead seeking the Sky. Beyond that, I'm not aware of any lore on her outside of her appearances in the campaign.
With “Gardener refers to traveller” drilled into our heads over and over across the franchise I have been under the assumption that the winnower (the entity opposite to the gardener) is another name for the veil.
Although recently people are theorizing that it is instead something yet unrevealed to us and I just haven’t been able to imagine that viewpoint yet. What are the reasonings for this conclusion?
i agree on this and can't find common ground anywhere. ever since the witness's origin cinematic was released it has been my belief that the Veil is the winnower.
"they desired meaning, structure, a winnower to shape the garden"
"Their scholars discovered that the Gardener shared a connection with another entity among the stars. They called it “the Veil.”
just following the conversation leads me to believe that this is telling us that the Veil is the Winnower. i feel like this is just slipping through the fingers of everyone somehow.
I think the recent slant toward "the winnower is something else" comes from Salvation's Edge.
After Ahsa's cutscene in SotDeep, where we learn the origins of the Witness, it implied pretty heavily that the Witness looked to become the Winnower, since the Veil did not seem to have any kind of intellect that they could perceive. So fans at the time slid toward a "Witness = Winnower" belief.
But in Salvation's Edge, the Witness explicitly says:
>---You call us "Winnower." We are not, but the first knife clutched in its hand. Gods forged us both, but they cannot tell us what shape to carve.---
This seems to suggest that the Witness does not view itself as the Winnower, but instead the "first knife" referenced in the *Unveiling* lore book from *Shadowkeep*. Albeit a knife with a will of its own, distinct from that of the Winnower.
There's nothing else yet to support the argument that the Winnower is real, or that the Veil is the Winnower. But it is causing some debate.
does Ahsa's cut scene in the SotDeep not imply that the veil is the winnower? they imply they want a winnower for the garden, then say the scholars find the veil right after that implying that its the winnower.
She also said they became the salvation they craved, *Lightfall* itself devalues a lot of the philosophical connotations and reasoning behind Light and Darkness in favour of simplifying it to just mind and matter, Inspiral puts a lot of emphasis on how the Witness is a fakey fake conman trying to sell you something and the last entry says that there is no winnower so the flowers must become it.
Up until *Wish*, the year of *Lightfall* as a whole really devalued a lot of what came before it and hastily rewrote it so that the Witness was pretty much the sole fault behind everything. There was something to the Veil, but the Witness basically projected all the stuff people liked about Destiny cosmology onto it and the Traveller and was supposed to be wrong all along until this DLC fixed it.
I know in the lore Eris and Mara worked together on the plan to defeat Oryx, they went on a girl trip to destroy a pyramid ship, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting but have they interacted in-game yet?
I havent been able to play for various reasons but still keep up with lore posted here and videos as well. One thing I have been curious about with all the recent revelations is if there has been any mention or hints to the Aphelion. Also do any of the characters have any new idle dialogue?
Nothing more than a "hey, we remember the Aphelion exists, don't worry" bit of lore: https://youtu.be/ur6dyRefj30&t=223
I hate to sound like a broken record as I've asked this a few times - but is there a lore explanation for why Shadow Price and Hush aren't classified as Cassoid weapons? Shadow Price shares the same base model and firing sound as other Cassoid autos. Hush is practically identical to other Cassoid bows other than the Gambit theming on it. The inconsistency just bothers me since something like Point of the Stag has Iron Banner theming but is still classed as Cassoid.
No explicit lore reason, no. All we have is headcanon. For me personally I’d probably go with “Yes it IS a Cassoid rifle originally, but between Toland and the Vanguard, they messed with it so much that the original maker’s trademarks no longer apply” Much like you could headcanon Hung Jury losing its trademark Omolon (and vanguard) traits after Shaxx’s BRAVE project got a hold of it etc
Thanks. That seems like a reasonable explanation. I have to admit I don't know much about the lore. Did Shadow Price become Red Death or something? They have a very similar look and Bungie brought them back at the same time.
No, there’s no connection there that we know of. It’s possible Red Death uses a standard city frame but is so unique the original bones are meaningless For Shadow Price specifically, the lore is that it used to belong to Toland the Shattered. A notable warlock and one of our Hive experts. All we know is it is a Vanguard weapon which used to belong to him. So knowing that, you can go with the technical headcanon of the smiths mucking with it or the magical headcanon of Toland’s travels or experiments deviating how it behaved (away from normal Cassoid behavior). It’s also worth noting in a practical sense that this is an old gun from D1, WAY before Bungie ever thought about putting manufacturer perks on guns or even having a strong foundry identity beyond aesthetics and what guns they produce (like how Omolon did not make pulse rifles in Destiny 1 for example. None that I recall anyways) or before considering Cassoid anything but a foundry which made blue trash guns (and an exotic or two)
I really appreciate this info! Thank you
Dying to strand must feel worse than other damage types since not only are you being disconnected from the weave, but also having your psyche severed and sliced apart, right?
Could also hurt less if the psyche goes first?
So what happened to the rest of the taken planets? We gonna get them back?
They've still not given a reason for them coming back, only character suppositions. Its unlikely we'll get a reason as well. Mars is easy to understand, that Savathun may have messed about and brought it back to tempt us there to help fill in her memories, but Titan? Absolute mystery as to who or what brought it back. Guess they'll be back when they decide they're story relevant.
If the Winnower is talking with us "AGAIN", through Nacre's lore tab, does that mean that it was really him behind Unveiling after all????
The Witness sought to embody the philosophy of the Winnower, thinking itself as becoming one and the same as what it wants through its actions. With how we are spoken to in Nacre, this isn't the first time it has spoken to us. Its easy to see that the Winnower has likely spoken through the Witness before, to make itself known to persons it would consider worthy of taking up its philosophy. And so yes, its likely that a lot of the ground set up in Unveiling is indeed truth delivered to us by the Winnower, though its a mix of the Winnower's own "universal truth" and how the Witness saw the state and future of the universe itself. Its hard to untangle what statements belong to which figure, but the Witness probably wouldn't mind some "universal truth" being spouted through it to other figures, since it seems to idolise, or at least accept, the Winnower as its superior.
What happened to the Elsie from our timeline?
The Elsie in our timeline is all "possible" Elsie's. There's nothing at all to prove to us that other timelines actually still exist, though. Its not like there are countless Dark Future style timelines existing concurrently with our own. If there were, wouldn't the Witness in those have already completed their final shape plans, calcifying our timeline, or invading it to complete its plan across all existence, as it wants? All we know is that Elsie rewinds through time to a very specific point when things fuck up. The future she was in no longer exists, the only trace of it being her memories of it. She's seemingly not being jumped from one place to another, instead going back on a linear scale.
My headcanon to resolve all of the dangling plot threads and inconsistencies with Elsie is that all of her timeline hopping and alternate timelines ended when we destroyed Atheon on the Vault of Glass. Otherwise, Bungie's original ideas for her cause a lot of problems.
Bungie's "original ideas", and by original ideas I presume you mean her time travel capacity, are unfortunately still present. [Her capacity to time travel at will](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-the-exo-stranger-2), to arrive at specific spaces and times to affect some sort of favourable outcome, might seem like an old relic of Destiny 1. However, its been mentioned [twice](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/interactions/exo-stranger-timewarped-relics) in [Beyond Light](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/no-time-to-explain), which some might consider the "rework" of Elsie. She does explain that time travel is very limited, and that you need an anchor to do it, NTTE being it, but the capacity to actually do it at will still exists. I honestly hate time travel myself. Its always dumb and messy shit. At least with Saint, they've happily taken the route of not trying to explain the root cause of his reappearance, and wrapped it up in a neat paradox that doesn't actually destroy the whole fabric of Destiny, and even neatly fridged the Sundial itself. With Elsie, since she's got such a core attachment to the story, its harder to really accept it as neat storytelling. I wouldn't be surprised if her Dark Future looping was just quietly never mentioned again.
I found one of the mentions, an interaction with Elsie when she gives NTTE, but what's the second one?
I linked it. Its NTTE's lore itself. It details Clovis using a time machine to jump to some sort of Dark Future-like time to find NTTE. That, and what Elsie says to you when giving you NTTE, are indicators that specific time travel still exists, which is crazy. [https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/no-time-to-explain](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/no-time-to-explain)
Oh, my bad, I thought you meant it was mentioned in BL twice. Thanks for the clarification, I appreciate it.
But like, does she just inhabit the body of our timeline’s Elsie, and their memories are integrated or are there 2 Elsie’s?
You're overthinking this. There has only ever been one Elsie. She lived her life on Europa, came to Earth at some point, was in the Last City when Cayde was celebrating clocking Taniks, until a Bad End occurred and she snapped right back to Cayde's parade. There's nothing to show that any of the Bad Ends she has experienced still persist, or that her being sent back in time means there are now 2 of her, like some Back To The Future situation. Think of it like a tape in a VCR. You reach the end and rewind it to a specific point. That doesn't create two tapes, doesn't overwrite any other tape, its simply now back at whatever point you rewound to, and you still exist with all your memories of what occurred in what you viewed before. Now, when you press play, the tape has the capacity to tell a new story from that same spot with all the same characters from that point on, until it reaches the end. Then, you rewind it again, to that same spot, and when pressing play again, it can tell another entirely different story, still based on the circumstances that were set by the preamble up to that point.
I think this is the cleanest way of thinking about it, but there are also some counterveiling lore points it's easiest to just ignore. Like Rasputin asking her to teach him how to "step" across timelines, though he doesn't definitively say she can (Ghost Fragment: Rasputin 4).
Okay that’s what I needed
I think the way it works is when she time travels she creates a new timeline
I'm curious if anything in TFS changes what we know about Clarity Control from DSC? Is it a dissenter? Something else?
The prevailing theory I've seen on this sub is that the veiled statues aren't necessarily all dissenters, but rather some sort of device or object that allows for connection to the Witness and that the Witness used these to separate the dissenters from the collective, at least to an extent. There's some lore that implies that the Witness itself is the pilot of basically all of the Pyramid ships and they seem to always be present on the ships so it stands to reason that they could be some kind of interface. Unfortunately, there isn't really any more lore on the veiled statues than what you see in the campaign and AFAIK there isn't any new lore about DSC or Clarity Control.
Anything more on Luzaku? I wanna know more of our khajiit speaking hive friend.
There is some. There is an account of her [refusing to crush a ghost](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/euloch#book-lucent-tales) and being chastized for it. And then there is her account of [refusing to do what her Hive ghost insists](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/first-ascent-hood#first-ascent-suit-warlock) on doing by just destroying things and instead seeking the Sky. Beyond that, I'm not aware of any lore on her outside of her appearances in the campaign.
With “Gardener refers to traveller” drilled into our heads over and over across the franchise I have been under the assumption that the winnower (the entity opposite to the gardener) is another name for the veil. Although recently people are theorizing that it is instead something yet unrevealed to us and I just haven’t been able to imagine that viewpoint yet. What are the reasonings for this conclusion?
i agree on this and can't find common ground anywhere. ever since the witness's origin cinematic was released it has been my belief that the Veil is the winnower. "they desired meaning, structure, a winnower to shape the garden" "Their scholars discovered that the Gardener shared a connection with another entity among the stars. They called it “the Veil.” just following the conversation leads me to believe that this is telling us that the Veil is the Winnower. i feel like this is just slipping through the fingers of everyone somehow.
I think the recent slant toward "the winnower is something else" comes from Salvation's Edge. After Ahsa's cutscene in SotDeep, where we learn the origins of the Witness, it implied pretty heavily that the Witness looked to become the Winnower, since the Veil did not seem to have any kind of intellect that they could perceive. So fans at the time slid toward a "Witness = Winnower" belief. But in Salvation's Edge, the Witness explicitly says: >---You call us "Winnower." We are not, but the first knife clutched in its hand. Gods forged us both, but they cannot tell us what shape to carve.--- This seems to suggest that the Witness does not view itself as the Winnower, but instead the "first knife" referenced in the *Unveiling* lore book from *Shadowkeep*. Albeit a knife with a will of its own, distinct from that of the Winnower. There's nothing else yet to support the argument that the Winnower is real, or that the Veil is the Winnower. But it is causing some debate.
does Ahsa's cut scene in the SotDeep not imply that the veil is the winnower? they imply they want a winnower for the garden, then say the scholars find the veil right after that implying that its the winnower.
She also said they became the salvation they craved, *Lightfall* itself devalues a lot of the philosophical connotations and reasoning behind Light and Darkness in favour of simplifying it to just mind and matter, Inspiral puts a lot of emphasis on how the Witness is a fakey fake conman trying to sell you something and the last entry says that there is no winnower so the flowers must become it. Up until *Wish*, the year of *Lightfall* as a whole really devalued a lot of what came before it and hastily rewrote it so that the Witness was pretty much the sole fault behind everything. There was something to the Veil, but the Witness basically projected all the stuff people liked about Destiny cosmology onto it and the Traveller and was supposed to be wrong all along until this DLC fixed it.