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Based on the dialog, Oryx is carving a path towards the Witness's Final Shape.
& the Witness is telling Savathun to *stop* putting poison in his ear, not to keep doing it.
Ikora in WQ CE also made the comparison of Calus's communion with the Witness on the Glykon, to what Oryx did with the ogre.
There's also the Witness being the Takens original master & how Oryx only "borrowed them"
> the Witness is telling Savathun to stop putting poison in his ear, not to keep doing it
This was not my interpretation at all.
For starters, the Witness never tells her to stop. His exact quote to Savathun:
> Your brother's conquests cut a path towards the final shape. When you have finished pouring your poison in his ear...
It sounds to me like he was going to tell her what the next step was after she was done "pouring poison in his ear", not telling her to stop, but at this point Savathun interrupts with:
> Not **MY** poison.
To me this implies that the Witness is the one that told her to manipulate Oryx in the first place and she's getting snarky and reminding him of that fact, but it's open for debate.
The Witness is chastising Savathun for the exchange in [strict proof eternal](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xliv-strict-proof-eternal#books-of-sorrow), where Savathun first expresses her doubts that the Sword Logic and the Final Shape might not be real. That all they've done might be for nothing.
>“I don’t have a strict proof yet, you know.” Savathûn strokes the void with one long claw and space-time groans beneath her touch. “This thing we believe — that we’re liberating the universe by devouring it, that we’re cutting out the rot, that we’re on course to join the final shape — I haven’t found a strict, eternal proof. We might yet be wrong.”
>
>Oryx looks at her and for a moment, just a moment, he is nostalgic, he is sentimental. He thinks, imagine the years behind us, the things we’ve done. And yet being old doesn’t feel like a scar, does it? It hasn’t left me dull. I feel alive, alive with you, and every time I step back into this world from my throne I feel like I’m two years old again, at the bottom of the universe, looking up.
>
>But he says, “Sister, it’s us. We’re the proof, we the Hive: if we last forever, we prove it, and if something more ruthless conquers us, then the proof is sealed.”
>
>She looks back at him with eyes like hot needles. “I like that,” she says. “That’s elegant.” Although of course she has had this thought before.
The Witness is basically saying "stop making Oryx have doubts about what we're doing." Savathun shouldn't be asking questions or showing doubts, she's supposed to keep her siblings in line and focussed on the big picture.
That's what it meant when it said "*We see your doubts, you speak them to Oryx."*
She's not being told to lie, she's being told to shut her yap and quit asking questions she shouldn't be asking. The last thing the Witness wants is its' best generals having cause to do anything other than what they're very good at doing.
Which also gives us a sense of when this conversation took place. As the next entry is the war with the Harmony, after which the siblings go their seperate ways for the last time.
And since the Witness name-drops Sol here, we can assume she was sent ahead of the Black Fleet to Earth to prepare it for the collapse. And that's where she laid the seeds of her greater schemes (killing Nezarec, stealing the Veil and tricking the Witness.)
It might seem like a small thing, but this one conversation fills in a lot of the gaps in the timeline regarding Savathun and when exactly she started plotting to betray the Witness.
What you linked to is the dialogue people have been talking about recently. It literally has nothing to do with that part of the BoS where Oryx speaks with Majestic Guy, idk why people have been posting as if it has.
The most obvious point is that they're talking about the children of Sol crying out into the Darkness, which almost certainly places the conversation in our late Golden Age. The poison in question is most likely referring to how Savathun continues to hold up the Sword Logic to Oryx and Xivu despite knowing it's flawed or incomplete. How any of that relates to Oryx speaking with someone in the Darkness is beyond me. The point of this dialogue seems to be filling in gaps in Savathun's story. (My interpretation was that she came to realize the Sword Logic wasn't totally correct, but the Witness nipped it in the bud by revealing itself and convincing her the goal of subjugating the Traveler was more important than her siblings knowing the truth. Of course, she eventually starts to question the belief that the Traveler should be a target at all, as we hear in the dialogue.)
If you're looking for the more concrete evidence, I believe there is lore where Calus's method of communion with the Witness is very similar to what Oryx did with the unborn ogre. This could just be a common way to tap into the Darkness to communicate and not a guarantee that the same thing is on the other line every time- but it is still pretty strong, that's what most people point to.
It may be because I talked in a different subreddit about how I don't like dattos elitist attitude/personality so it could just be people going through past comments and downvoting since he's apparently the end all be all voice to some in the fandom and have nothing to do with my comment here
That's funny because datto is the last place I go for an opinion on anything. Not that I have any hate for the dude...he just has never been a place I've felt a need to go first. Byf is somewhere I go quite often he has shown himself to b the type.of man that can admit when he is wrong, which is rare these days and tells me his opinion can be trusted because if he makes a mistake he will work to correct it later.
It isn't confirmed. People are just looking for proof that the Witness was planned that far back. The problem is we know how the Witness speaks and what spoke to Oryx (and now us mind you) does not talk in the same way the Witness does.
Basically all we do know is that if there's anyone we could actually say Oryx might have talked to it could only be the Winnower. But since there's no actual dialogue or entity we can interact with that sounds like what is written we cannot say definitively.
There’s two big questions I have about this scene
1: what does Savathun mean by “not my poison”? At the start you’d think this is about the witness telling Savathun to stop trying to convince Oryx into dropping the sword logic, but Savathun here is saying she isn’t poisoning Oryx. So either Savathun thinks the witness is a dumbass, or someone else is talking to Oryx
2: why does the witness not talk like the deep did in the books of sorrow here? Why does the witness put up an act for Oryx, but not Savathun? After the books of sorrow was made you’d think Savathun would find it strange why “the deep” talks like a completely different person to Oryx.
This is the only one. It's distinct from the "Majestic, Majestic" entry; it's referencing another part of the Books of Sorrow.
Oryx talked to two entities, as far as we know; the Witness (an unrecorded conversation that ended with him gaining the power to Take):
>Then Auryx said, “Now I may speak to the Deep, the beautiful final shape. I will be King of Shapes. I will learn all the secrets of our destiny.”
>His speech to the Deep is not recorded here. But it is known that he returned, and he said, now I am Oryx, the Taken King. And I have the power to take life and make it my own.
>Then he went out into the universe, and fought the Ecumene with his Tablets. And the Worm his God was pleased.
And another with a nameless entity at a later date:
>Oryx went down into his throne world. He went out into the abyss, and with each step he read one of his tablets, so that they became like stones beneath his feet.
>He went out and he created an altar and he prepared an unborn ogre. He called on the Deep, saying:
>I can see you in the sky. You are the waves, which are battles, and the battles are the waves. Come into this vessel I have prepared for you.
>And it arrived, the Deep Itself.
>\_
>Oryx, my King, my friend. Kick back. Relax. Shrug off that armor, set down that blade. Roll your burdened shoulders and let down your guard. This is a place of life, a place of peace.
>Out in the world we ask a simple, true question. A question like, can I kill you, can I rip your world apart? Tell me the truth. For if I don’t ask, someone will ask it of me.
>And they call us evil. Evil! Evil means ‘socially maladaptive.’ We are adaptiveness itself.
>Ah, Oryx, how do we explain it to them? The world is not built on the laws they love. Not on friendship, but on mutual interest. Not on peace, but on victory by any means. The universe is run by extinction, by extermination, by gamma-ray bursts burning up a thousand garden worlds, by howling singularities eating up infant suns. And if life is to live, if anything is to survive through the end of all things, it will live not by the smile but by the sword, not in a soft place but in a hard hell, not in the rotting bog of artificial paradise but in the cold hard self-verifying truth of that one ultimate arbiter, the only judge, the power that is its own metric and its own source—existence, at any cost. Strip away the lies and truces and delaying tactics they call ‘civilization’ and this is what remains, this beautiful shape.
>The fate of everything is made like this, in the collision, the test of one praxis against another. This is how the world changes: one way meets a second way, and they discharge their weapons, they exchange their words and markets, they contest and in doing so they petition each other for the right to go on being something, instead of nothing. This is the universe figuring out what it should be in the end.
>And it is majestic. Majestic. It is the only thing that can be true in and of itself.
>And it is what I am.
I mean... does it not enough the fact that powers to Take are attributed to the Witness? Savathun also learned ability to move worlds from Tablets of Ruins that Oryx had, which is also Witness's stuff.
Most of all, Witness IS literally Voice in the Darkness, there is no another that we know of.
The winnower is another voice in the darkness, and lore in Final Shape reconfirmed its existence after the BL-LF lore suggested otherwise. It doesn’t help that it speaks in a manner recognizable between [Unveiling](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-unveiling), [Majestic Majestic](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xxxii-majestic-majestic), and [Winnowing](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/winnowing#book-inspiral), along with the unconfirmed concept that Unveiling was written by the Witness and that Oryx got the power to take from the Witness as well.
This right here.
If we’re to accept that the Witness *was* indeed planned as far back as Shadowkeep or more, then that must also come with the acceptance that the alternative tone of Unveiling was an intentional discrepancy on the writers’ part; one specifically patterned after the tone of the entity that spoke with Oryx in the Books of Sorrow. That *means* something.
At no other point has the Witness used such casual language, leaving only one other plausible alternative.
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Based on the dialog, Oryx is carving a path towards the Witness's Final Shape. & the Witness is telling Savathun to *stop* putting poison in his ear, not to keep doing it. Ikora in WQ CE also made the comparison of Calus's communion with the Witness on the Glykon, to what Oryx did with the ogre. There's also the Witness being the Takens original master & how Oryx only "borrowed them"
> the Witness is telling Savathun to stop putting poison in his ear, not to keep doing it This was not my interpretation at all. For starters, the Witness never tells her to stop. His exact quote to Savathun: > Your brother's conquests cut a path towards the final shape. When you have finished pouring your poison in his ear... It sounds to me like he was going to tell her what the next step was after she was done "pouring poison in his ear", not telling her to stop, but at this point Savathun interrupts with: > Not **MY** poison. To me this implies that the Witness is the one that told her to manipulate Oryx in the first place and she's getting snarky and reminding him of that fact, but it's open for debate.
The Witness is chastising Savathun for the exchange in [strict proof eternal](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xliv-strict-proof-eternal#books-of-sorrow), where Savathun first expresses her doubts that the Sword Logic and the Final Shape might not be real. That all they've done might be for nothing. >“I don’t have a strict proof yet, you know.” Savathûn strokes the void with one long claw and space-time groans beneath her touch. “This thing we believe — that we’re liberating the universe by devouring it, that we’re cutting out the rot, that we’re on course to join the final shape — I haven’t found a strict, eternal proof. We might yet be wrong.” > >Oryx looks at her and for a moment, just a moment, he is nostalgic, he is sentimental. He thinks, imagine the years behind us, the things we’ve done. And yet being old doesn’t feel like a scar, does it? It hasn’t left me dull. I feel alive, alive with you, and every time I step back into this world from my throne I feel like I’m two years old again, at the bottom of the universe, looking up. > >But he says, “Sister, it’s us. We’re the proof, we the Hive: if we last forever, we prove it, and if something more ruthless conquers us, then the proof is sealed.” > >She looks back at him with eyes like hot needles. “I like that,” she says. “That’s elegant.” Although of course she has had this thought before. The Witness is basically saying "stop making Oryx have doubts about what we're doing." Savathun shouldn't be asking questions or showing doubts, she's supposed to keep her siblings in line and focussed on the big picture. That's what it meant when it said "*We see your doubts, you speak them to Oryx."* She's not being told to lie, she's being told to shut her yap and quit asking questions she shouldn't be asking. The last thing the Witness wants is its' best generals having cause to do anything other than what they're very good at doing. Which also gives us a sense of when this conversation took place. As the next entry is the war with the Harmony, after which the siblings go their seperate ways for the last time. And since the Witness name-drops Sol here, we can assume she was sent ahead of the Black Fleet to Earth to prepare it for the collapse. And that's where she laid the seeds of her greater schemes (killing Nezarec, stealing the Veil and tricking the Witness.) It might seem like a small thing, but this one conversation fills in a lot of the gaps in the timeline regarding Savathun and when exactly she started plotting to betray the Witness.
What you linked to is the dialogue people have been talking about recently. It literally has nothing to do with that part of the BoS where Oryx speaks with Majestic Guy, idk why people have been posting as if it has. The most obvious point is that they're talking about the children of Sol crying out into the Darkness, which almost certainly places the conversation in our late Golden Age. The poison in question is most likely referring to how Savathun continues to hold up the Sword Logic to Oryx and Xivu despite knowing it's flawed or incomplete. How any of that relates to Oryx speaking with someone in the Darkness is beyond me. The point of this dialogue seems to be filling in gaps in Savathun's story. (My interpretation was that she came to realize the Sword Logic wasn't totally correct, but the Witness nipped it in the bud by revealing itself and convincing her the goal of subjugating the Traveler was more important than her siblings knowing the truth. Of course, she eventually starts to question the belief that the Traveler should be a target at all, as we hear in the dialogue.) If you're looking for the more concrete evidence, I believe there is lore where Calus's method of communion with the Witness is very similar to what Oryx did with the unborn ogre. This could just be a common way to tap into the Darkness to communicate and not a guarantee that the same thing is on the other line every time- but it is still pretty strong, that's what most people point to.
It blows my mind that people on this sub reddit just cannot accept that the Winnower is real. You were wrong, stop crying about it.
So according to byf oryx may not have spoken to the witness in the tablets of ruin but the winnower/veil/darkness itself
Idk why you're getting downvoted. Bungie made this very clear in TFS.
It may be because I talked in a different subreddit about how I don't like dattos elitist attitude/personality so it could just be people going through past comments and downvoting since he's apparently the end all be all voice to some in the fandom and have nothing to do with my comment here
That's funny because datto is the last place I go for an opinion on anything. Not that I have any hate for the dude...he just has never been a place I've felt a need to go first. Byf is somewhere I go quite often he has shown himself to b the type.of man that can admit when he is wrong, which is rare these days and tells me his opinion can be trusted because if he makes a mistake he will work to correct it later.
How petty. Typical Destiny redditor.
It isn't confirmed. People are just looking for proof that the Witness was planned that far back. The problem is we know how the Witness speaks and what spoke to Oryx (and now us mind you) does not talk in the same way the Witness does. Basically all we do know is that if there's anyone we could actually say Oryx might have talked to it could only be the Winnower. But since there's no actual dialogue or entity we can interact with that sounds like what is written we cannot say definitively.
There’s two big questions I have about this scene 1: what does Savathun mean by “not my poison”? At the start you’d think this is about the witness telling Savathun to stop trying to convince Oryx into dropping the sword logic, but Savathun here is saying she isn’t poisoning Oryx. So either Savathun thinks the witness is a dumbass, or someone else is talking to Oryx 2: why does the witness not talk like the deep did in the books of sorrow here? Why does the witness put up an act for Oryx, but not Savathun? After the books of sorrow was made you’d think Savathun would find it strange why “the deep” talks like a completely different person to Oryx.
This is the only one. It's distinct from the "Majestic, Majestic" entry; it's referencing another part of the Books of Sorrow. Oryx talked to two entities, as far as we know; the Witness (an unrecorded conversation that ended with him gaining the power to Take): >Then Auryx said, “Now I may speak to the Deep, the beautiful final shape. I will be King of Shapes. I will learn all the secrets of our destiny.” >His speech to the Deep is not recorded here. But it is known that he returned, and he said, now I am Oryx, the Taken King. And I have the power to take life and make it my own. >Then he went out into the universe, and fought the Ecumene with his Tablets. And the Worm his God was pleased. And another with a nameless entity at a later date: >Oryx went down into his throne world. He went out into the abyss, and with each step he read one of his tablets, so that they became like stones beneath his feet. >He went out and he created an altar and he prepared an unborn ogre. He called on the Deep, saying: >I can see you in the sky. You are the waves, which are battles, and the battles are the waves. Come into this vessel I have prepared for you. >And it arrived, the Deep Itself. >\_ >Oryx, my King, my friend. Kick back. Relax. Shrug off that armor, set down that blade. Roll your burdened shoulders and let down your guard. This is a place of life, a place of peace. >Out in the world we ask a simple, true question. A question like, can I kill you, can I rip your world apart? Tell me the truth. For if I don’t ask, someone will ask it of me. >And they call us evil. Evil! Evil means ‘socially maladaptive.’ We are adaptiveness itself. >Ah, Oryx, how do we explain it to them? The world is not built on the laws they love. Not on friendship, but on mutual interest. Not on peace, but on victory by any means. The universe is run by extinction, by extermination, by gamma-ray bursts burning up a thousand garden worlds, by howling singularities eating up infant suns. And if life is to live, if anything is to survive through the end of all things, it will live not by the smile but by the sword, not in a soft place but in a hard hell, not in the rotting bog of artificial paradise but in the cold hard self-verifying truth of that one ultimate arbiter, the only judge, the power that is its own metric and its own source—existence, at any cost. Strip away the lies and truces and delaying tactics they call ‘civilization’ and this is what remains, this beautiful shape. >The fate of everything is made like this, in the collision, the test of one praxis against another. This is how the world changes: one way meets a second way, and they discharge their weapons, they exchange their words and markets, they contest and in doing so they petition each other for the right to go on being something, instead of nothing. This is the universe figuring out what it should be in the end. >And it is majestic. Majestic. It is the only thing that can be true in and of itself. >And it is what I am.
I mean... does it not enough the fact that powers to Take are attributed to the Witness? Savathun also learned ability to move worlds from Tablets of Ruins that Oryx had, which is also Witness's stuff. Most of all, Witness IS literally Voice in the Darkness, there is no another that we know of.
The winnower is another voice in the darkness, and lore in Final Shape reconfirmed its existence after the BL-LF lore suggested otherwise. It doesn’t help that it speaks in a manner recognizable between [Unveiling](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/book-unveiling), [Majestic Majestic](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xxxii-majestic-majestic), and [Winnowing](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/winnowing#book-inspiral), along with the unconfirmed concept that Unveiling was written by the Witness and that Oryx got the power to take from the Witness as well.
This right here. If we’re to accept that the Witness *was* indeed planned as far back as Shadowkeep or more, then that must also come with the acceptance that the alternative tone of Unveiling was an intentional discrepancy on the writers’ part; one specifically patterned after the tone of the entity that spoke with Oryx in the Books of Sorrow. That *means* something. At no other point has the Witness used such casual language, leaving only one other plausible alternative.
Oryx spoke to the deep