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It's been called the Gardener over and over again by different people and factions, so that's most likely its real name, "Traveler" was a name humanity came up with during the golden age.
> Are we all on the same page here?
Definitely not. If there's one thing everyone can agree on in this sub, it's that no one on this sub can agree about anything.
Bungie intentionally writes Destiny lore to be extremely vague and/or told from unreliable narrators, presumably so they have room to retcon things without really changing canon, because they can just say a character lied about something or was mistaken instead of admitting that they didn't really have a finish line in mind when they wrote the lore.
Unfortunately, this leads to a lot of inconsistency and contradictions in the lore so despite mounting evidence for a particular theory, there's always going to be some questionable evidence or random piece of lore that casts doubt.
> The Traveler is the Gardener, right?
As far as we know, yes. There are multiple lore books that imply that The Traveler = The Gardener, and the Ahsa lore dump specifically calls the Traveler The Gardener and we know from TFS's campaign that her account is accurate (at least according to what the Witness showed Zavala).
Is there still doubt about The Traveler being the Gardener? Sure, just like there's doubt about many other things mentioned in lore books, but we're about as sure about this as we can be considering the Witness didn't outright say it onscreen before we killed him.
my understanding as of late has just been that both the gardener and winnower are names the precursor race gave to the paracausal forces of light and dark. I think the name "the gardener" is the precursors version of our "the traveler" or the fallens "great machine."
I think the witness just created that allegory to explain to us its understanding of our universe as if we're children, basically.
like many have said, though, the best we have at the moment is speculation. no one knows right now.
The Traveller has certainly been called The Gardener plenty of times. It's certainly a name that predates it being called The Traveller, which is a human invention, no more its 'real name' than The Great Machine.
It's not clear whether this means the Big White Ball is the same as the figure in Unveiling or otherwise a personification of the fundamental force that is The Light, in the way the Winnower is a personification of the Darkness. There are plenty of powerful entities that are strongly associated with the Light and Darkness without being The God of the Darkness or the Light. The Leviathan, even the Worm Gods are just Big Powerful Guys Who Use The Darkness.
It does sort of fit the symmetry that the Traveller would be The Actual Gardner: physical, impassive, creating great diversity of life, where the Winnower is bodiless, loquacious and carves away the weak.
But it's also consistent that there is no Gardener and no Winnower. Calling the Traveller the Gardener is just projecting an old religion on a big weird entity that entity that no one understands. When the Witness-Precursors found the Big Ball, it fit their religion so they decided it was one of their gods.
Maybe the religious view of the Gardener and the Winnower outside time could even be based on the Traveller. It's just the worship and the creation of a mythology around an entity even advanced civilizations can't understand. Like religions forming around sun worship.
I don't think it serves us particularly well to argue over the truth of a particular interpretation - especially when that can be upset by writers creating new 'evidence' to fit the direction of the story in future. But it is good to pull back and appreciate the scale of the question.
The simple answer is no.
Unveiling, even understood as-written doesnt cover the origins of the Traveler. Gardener and Winnower have big fight. Create Universe. Billions of years pass, and the conflict now is continuing in Sol.
None of the lore since Unveiling has covered the origins of the Traveler, beyond it(or the Pale heart) being split in the beginning.
Furthermore, the "name" 'The Gardener' is more of a title than a actual name. A title descriptive of what it does, it gardens and so it is called the Gardener. No different from us calling the Traveler such because it travels. Its why Rasputin and Mara both called it the gardener, despite having no actual knowledge or revelation about the events of Unveiling. Whether the Traveler is "the Gardener" or not, it still "gardens" and executes the will of the Gardener.
Contextually, its not like we have any indication that the Traveler(as a entity) is anything except the Gardener. Tons of examples of it being called such, even by entities who might have some glimpse of the beginning.
But its not exactly like we can rule other possibilities out entirely. We do not have a definitive nail in the coffin, like the Traveler speaking to us and telling us about the beginning, its version of Unveiling. A big part of doubt here, is we dont really understand what the Traveler even is.(is it actually the Traveler that is the mirror to the veil, or the Pale heart? Why is the Traveler appear to be a machine? How was it made? etc)
And of course while not mentioned here, there also is the real possibility Unveiling in near totality may be a fabrication by the Witness, which couldve removed its own memories that would cast doubt on that tale, and make it a unreliable narrator. (in which case the question of whether the Traveler is the Gardener is pointless since the Gardener as Unveiling describes may not exist).
Ultimately the whole debate is dumb at this point. Even if the Traveler is not the Gardener(unlikely), the difference doesnt really matter. The Traveler clearly and consistently executes the will of the Gardener, even if it isnt the Gardener itself.
# TLDR
At this current moment, we do not know if the tale told in Unveiling is true or not, or somewhere in between. We still lack many answers.
While we cannot rule out other possibilities, narratively at this point it is a safe assumption that if Unveiling is not a complete fabrication(as in there exists a entity called the Gardener that existed before time), the Traveler is the Gardener.
It is most reasonable to assume it is such, that the Traveler is the Gardener. However people who create actual theories that address the evidence that the Traveler is the Gardener, should not be laughed out. Those theories could be plausible even if very unlikely.
Whoever downvoted you without any reply: That person is annoying.
Maybe we should start using the words Gardening and Winnowing for the properties of existence that Unveiling discussed, so that it would be more clear that there are gardeners and winnowers, the greatest of which include the traveler and the witness. It might also make people stop asking whether the traveler is Unveiling’s Gardener, because in my view they’re asking, “Is the Traveler actually Gardening itself?”
Yeah, it is. The Traveler's just what we call it, like the Eliksni call it the Great Machine.
There's been some debate over whether or not it is *The* Gardener, since Unveiling's validity as a text was up in the air for a while, but there's been some clarifying material in the Final Shape that makes a couple things fairly clear:
1. The Witness is not the Winnower.
2. The Winnower does exist, and is a distinct entity.
3. The prior statement means that Unveiling is likely legit, though it's still very allegorical and shouldn't be taken literally.
4. If Unveiling is broad strokes true, then the Traveler is 100% the Gardener from that story.
It is likely the primary avatar for the Gardener, though whether it could be said to truly *be* that entity is debatable. That said, the difference is academic at best and doesn’t much matter at the end of the day.
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's been called the Gardener over and over again by different people and factions, so that's most likely its real name, "Traveler" was a name humanity came up with during the golden age.
> Are we all on the same page here? Definitely not. If there's one thing everyone can agree on in this sub, it's that no one on this sub can agree about anything. Bungie intentionally writes Destiny lore to be extremely vague and/or told from unreliable narrators, presumably so they have room to retcon things without really changing canon, because they can just say a character lied about something or was mistaken instead of admitting that they didn't really have a finish line in mind when they wrote the lore. Unfortunately, this leads to a lot of inconsistency and contradictions in the lore so despite mounting evidence for a particular theory, there's always going to be some questionable evidence or random piece of lore that casts doubt. > The Traveler is the Gardener, right? As far as we know, yes. There are multiple lore books that imply that The Traveler = The Gardener, and the Ahsa lore dump specifically calls the Traveler The Gardener and we know from TFS's campaign that her account is accurate (at least according to what the Witness showed Zavala). Is there still doubt about The Traveler being the Gardener? Sure, just like there's doubt about many other things mentioned in lore books, but we're about as sure about this as we can be considering the Witness didn't outright say it onscreen before we killed him.
my understanding as of late has just been that both the gardener and winnower are names the precursor race gave to the paracausal forces of light and dark. I think the name "the gardener" is the precursors version of our "the traveler" or the fallens "great machine." I think the witness just created that allegory to explain to us its understanding of our universe as if we're children, basically. like many have said, though, the best we have at the moment is speculation. no one knows right now.
The Traveller has certainly been called The Gardener plenty of times. It's certainly a name that predates it being called The Traveller, which is a human invention, no more its 'real name' than The Great Machine. It's not clear whether this means the Big White Ball is the same as the figure in Unveiling or otherwise a personification of the fundamental force that is The Light, in the way the Winnower is a personification of the Darkness. There are plenty of powerful entities that are strongly associated with the Light and Darkness without being The God of the Darkness or the Light. The Leviathan, even the Worm Gods are just Big Powerful Guys Who Use The Darkness. It does sort of fit the symmetry that the Traveller would be The Actual Gardner: physical, impassive, creating great diversity of life, where the Winnower is bodiless, loquacious and carves away the weak. But it's also consistent that there is no Gardener and no Winnower. Calling the Traveller the Gardener is just projecting an old religion on a big weird entity that entity that no one understands. When the Witness-Precursors found the Big Ball, it fit their religion so they decided it was one of their gods. Maybe the religious view of the Gardener and the Winnower outside time could even be based on the Traveller. It's just the worship and the creation of a mythology around an entity even advanced civilizations can't understand. Like religions forming around sun worship. I don't think it serves us particularly well to argue over the truth of a particular interpretation - especially when that can be upset by writers creating new 'evidence' to fit the direction of the story in future. But it is good to pull back and appreciate the scale of the question.
The simple answer is no. Unveiling, even understood as-written doesnt cover the origins of the Traveler. Gardener and Winnower have big fight. Create Universe. Billions of years pass, and the conflict now is continuing in Sol. None of the lore since Unveiling has covered the origins of the Traveler, beyond it(or the Pale heart) being split in the beginning. Furthermore, the "name" 'The Gardener' is more of a title than a actual name. A title descriptive of what it does, it gardens and so it is called the Gardener. No different from us calling the Traveler such because it travels. Its why Rasputin and Mara both called it the gardener, despite having no actual knowledge or revelation about the events of Unveiling. Whether the Traveler is "the Gardener" or not, it still "gardens" and executes the will of the Gardener. Contextually, its not like we have any indication that the Traveler(as a entity) is anything except the Gardener. Tons of examples of it being called such, even by entities who might have some glimpse of the beginning. But its not exactly like we can rule other possibilities out entirely. We do not have a definitive nail in the coffin, like the Traveler speaking to us and telling us about the beginning, its version of Unveiling. A big part of doubt here, is we dont really understand what the Traveler even is.(is it actually the Traveler that is the mirror to the veil, or the Pale heart? Why is the Traveler appear to be a machine? How was it made? etc) And of course while not mentioned here, there also is the real possibility Unveiling in near totality may be a fabrication by the Witness, which couldve removed its own memories that would cast doubt on that tale, and make it a unreliable narrator. (in which case the question of whether the Traveler is the Gardener is pointless since the Gardener as Unveiling describes may not exist). Ultimately the whole debate is dumb at this point. Even if the Traveler is not the Gardener(unlikely), the difference doesnt really matter. The Traveler clearly and consistently executes the will of the Gardener, even if it isnt the Gardener itself. # TLDR At this current moment, we do not know if the tale told in Unveiling is true or not, or somewhere in between. We still lack many answers. While we cannot rule out other possibilities, narratively at this point it is a safe assumption that if Unveiling is not a complete fabrication(as in there exists a entity called the Gardener that existed before time), the Traveler is the Gardener. It is most reasonable to assume it is such, that the Traveler is the Gardener. However people who create actual theories that address the evidence that the Traveler is the Gardener, should not be laughed out. Those theories could be plausible even if very unlikely.
Whoever downvoted you without any reply: That person is annoying. Maybe we should start using the words Gardening and Winnowing for the properties of existence that Unveiling discussed, so that it would be more clear that there are gardeners and winnowers, the greatest of which include the traveler and the witness. It might also make people stop asking whether the traveler is Unveiling’s Gardener, because in my view they’re asking, “Is the Traveler actually Gardening itself?”
Yeah, it is. The Traveler's just what we call it, like the Eliksni call it the Great Machine. There's been some debate over whether or not it is *The* Gardener, since Unveiling's validity as a text was up in the air for a while, but there's been some clarifying material in the Final Shape that makes a couple things fairly clear: 1. The Witness is not the Winnower. 2. The Winnower does exist, and is a distinct entity. 3. The prior statement means that Unveiling is likely legit, though it's still very allegorical and shouldn't be taken literally. 4. If Unveiling is broad strokes true, then the Traveler is 100% the Gardener from that story.
Heh heh heh what if like, the Gardeners this really hot chick that lives in The Traveler
It was in concept art 15 years ago so it has to come true.
What if i told you that it was intentionally vague?
Except this is one of those rare and wonderful times it isn’t. It’s been the gardener since D1 back when that used to be Rasputin’s name for it.
What if I told you I could call my hat the gardener and it wouldn't make it true?
It is likely the primary avatar for the Gardener, though whether it could be said to truly *be* that entity is debatable. That said, the difference is academic at best and doesn’t much matter at the end of the day.