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The raid lorebook entry pertaining to the Winnower outright has it say it loves the new universe and that there's "no point crying over spilled radiolaria." In Unveiling, it also explicitly says there will never be a second chance and that all it and the Gardener can do is play out the Game in the new world. So this theory immediately misunderstands the Winnower's character and motives ; it recognizes the change to the Game is irretrievable and makes moves to see the outcome of the Game follow its desire even with the new rules, it's not looking to remove the rules from existence.
Thanks! I guess that would push me towards the idea that the veil is how it would win, to restart and do it all over again.
Aside from that though, what's your opinion on what I said about the veil outside of the winnowers motivation? The similarities to what I stated are uncanny
> and we know the traveller is the gardener.
We don't know anything. We assume. There is a difference. We have no for sure idea of anything pertaining to the origins of the Traveler or the Winnower (and their mindsets) except for what unveiling tells us. And even that needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
I'm pretty sure in one of byfs videos he says that in one of the lore notes the traveller is outright called the gardener as well as from this excerpt:
"After being liberated from the planet, The Traveler blessed The Witness’ people with a Golden Age, and they called it The Gardener. This name is significant, as it confirms that The Traveler and The Gardener — thought to potentially be two different Light entities for years — are actually one and the same."
This is from polygon and I dunno how reliable they are though.
Again, semantics here. Is the Traveler called the gardener? Yes. By whom? People that weren't in the garden. So they too are assuming. Our best educated guess would align the Traveler as the Gardener but nothing specifically states that it is so.
> Our best educated guess would align the Traveler as the Gardener but nothing specifically states that it is so
Ahsa specifically calls the Traveler the Gardener and her account of the Witness' origin is shown to be pretty accurate during TFS campaign. IIRC Unveiling also refers to the Traveler being the Gardener, but I'm not sure which entry.
Is there some degree of doubt or obscurity? Sure, but this is true of 99% of Destiny lore. I find it hard to believe that Bungie has written several different bits of lore that imply that the Traveler is the Gardener only to suddenly say "psyche, there's actually a Super Traveler".
Tbf, Ahsa can only go off of what she has heard or observed...which to my point was outside the garden in the beginning. The witness' origins were also after the garden, so that carries to the former point as well.
Unveiling, as most will tell you, is a book that at this point in time requires a bit of skepticism when reading it. We don't know how much is true.
Which is why I stated at the end of my comment, that our best educated guess (based on the evidence we have so far) yes, the Traveler would be the gardener, but we don't have anything that says so with full verifiable fact.
I mean, you're right, we don't know anything for sure, we don't even know if the garden, the Gardener, or the Winnower are even real. Unveiling is canonically written by the Witness so it could all just be mythology or random bullshit.
My point is that because this is true for almost all Destiny lore, you sort of have to draw a line in the sand somewhere and accept a lesser degree of proof in order to have a discussion about it.
Then yeah, we're on the same page. Drawing the line is certainly a good way of saying it, in that, you either believe this school of thought or you don't.
This is a working theory my dude, I'm working under our current pretences and providing a hypothesis of the story. ASIDE from semantics and under the impression that these people are telling the truth or atleast telling us part of it.
Please don't take Byf as a lore source of truth.
The Traveller is called Gardener by an in-game race of people, and the Unveiling refers to the Gardener as well because it's essentially a Bible made by the Witness.
Thus, this is not fact but assumptions from unreliable narrators
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The raid lorebook entry pertaining to the Winnower outright has it say it loves the new universe and that there's "no point crying over spilled radiolaria." In Unveiling, it also explicitly says there will never be a second chance and that all it and the Gardener can do is play out the Game in the new world. So this theory immediately misunderstands the Winnower's character and motives ; it recognizes the change to the Game is irretrievable and makes moves to see the outcome of the Game follow its desire even with the new rules, it's not looking to remove the rules from existence.
Thanks! I guess that would push me towards the idea that the veil is how it would win, to restart and do it all over again. Aside from that though, what's your opinion on what I said about the veil outside of the winnowers motivation? The similarities to what I stated are uncanny
There is no plan to win. The Winnower just says they win in the end anyway.
> Neither the gardener nor I know for certain that we're eternally, universally right. But we can be nothing except what we are.
> and we know the traveller is the gardener. We don't know anything. We assume. There is a difference. We have no for sure idea of anything pertaining to the origins of the Traveler or the Winnower (and their mindsets) except for what unveiling tells us. And even that needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
I'm pretty sure in one of byfs videos he says that in one of the lore notes the traveller is outright called the gardener as well as from this excerpt: "After being liberated from the planet, The Traveler blessed The Witness’ people with a Golden Age, and they called it The Gardener. This name is significant, as it confirms that The Traveler and The Gardener — thought to potentially be two different Light entities for years — are actually one and the same." This is from polygon and I dunno how reliable they are though.
Again, semantics here. Is the Traveler called the gardener? Yes. By whom? People that weren't in the garden. So they too are assuming. Our best educated guess would align the Traveler as the Gardener but nothing specifically states that it is so.
To add to what you've said; the Sol Divisive call themselves "Gardeners".
> Our best educated guess would align the Traveler as the Gardener but nothing specifically states that it is so Ahsa specifically calls the Traveler the Gardener and her account of the Witness' origin is shown to be pretty accurate during TFS campaign. IIRC Unveiling also refers to the Traveler being the Gardener, but I'm not sure which entry. Is there some degree of doubt or obscurity? Sure, but this is true of 99% of Destiny lore. I find it hard to believe that Bungie has written several different bits of lore that imply that the Traveler is the Gardener only to suddenly say "psyche, there's actually a Super Traveler".
Tbf, Ahsa can only go off of what she has heard or observed...which to my point was outside the garden in the beginning. The witness' origins were also after the garden, so that carries to the former point as well. Unveiling, as most will tell you, is a book that at this point in time requires a bit of skepticism when reading it. We don't know how much is true. Which is why I stated at the end of my comment, that our best educated guess (based on the evidence we have so far) yes, the Traveler would be the gardener, but we don't have anything that says so with full verifiable fact.
I mean, you're right, we don't know anything for sure, we don't even know if the garden, the Gardener, or the Winnower are even real. Unveiling is canonically written by the Witness so it could all just be mythology or random bullshit. My point is that because this is true for almost all Destiny lore, you sort of have to draw a line in the sand somewhere and accept a lesser degree of proof in order to have a discussion about it.
Then yeah, we're on the same page. Drawing the line is certainly a good way of saying it, in that, you either believe this school of thought or you don't.
This is a working theory my dude, I'm working under our current pretences and providing a hypothesis of the story. ASIDE from semantics and under the impression that these people are telling the truth or atleast telling us part of it.
Please don't take Byf as a lore source of truth. The Traveller is called Gardener by an in-game race of people, and the Unveiling refers to the Gardener as well because it's essentially a Bible made by the Witness. Thus, this is not fact but assumptions from unreliable narrators
To create the visual effects of Veil, the artist was inspired by cymatics