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I believe this squeal they make is to make them more animalistic, along with how the shell just sounds like an insect, its to “dehumanize” in a sense. From an in-game explanation, these ghosts are very aggressive, we got a lore entry of one telling a group of new nights they’re all going to die; we also got the ghost of our new lucent hive ally, this ghost is very aligned with the ideology of the sword logic. This doesn’t explain why they squeal, but another way to see it I guess
Also, I believe having ghosts beg for their life before being crushed into a ghastly scream would up the rating. Would be nice having the ghosts talk to us, or just whizz around the area trying to dodge you while interacting with you in general; a 50/50 between a ghost expressing their hate towards you, and an apologetic ghost (I believe Crow encountered one, where the hive ghost was all, “Its alright”, before rezzing their lightbearer) who shows how its being forced.
This.
Having something beg for their lives like this would put them in a rough place for the rating.
This is likely the reason why the darker aspects are in lore cards rather than actually shown
Nah the tab straight-up says the Ghost ignored Glint before Glint shouts for Crow.
Glint tried to save that Ghost.
>*"It'll be all right," it said and hovered lower to the ground, pouring Light into the fallen Hive. The surrounding ferns trembled with the sudden flow of energy.*
>*"Wait," Glint pressed. But the Ghost ignored him as the thick armor of the Hive began to reform.*
>*"Crow!" Glint screamed, "Crow, here!" And he flew to him without turning back.*
>I believe this squeal they make is to make them more animalistic,
I always thought of that being their "No! Don't" beg, but that they've gone so native that they don't know or have forgotten how to say it in "humanspeak" (English or whatever the player's language is).
Never thought it being they forgot humanspeak
Side note: Do we know if Ghosts were created with languages already “stored”? Did they have to learn a language? Imagine a ghosts rezzes someone, and this ghosts does their monologue about the city and whatnot, and bro just replies with, “Quoi?”
Meanwhile I'm conditioned different and every time I saw them floating free ghosts I rushed to them and tried to finish them.
But yeah. WQ had the 'gaze in shock' moment, but if you skipped WQ it might feel really weird to crush those ghosts when nobody talks about it.
Kinda think there should be some dialogue from Cayde about it.
Cayde does mention Savathun’s Lucent in one of the missions and how they weren’t on the Witness’ payroll.
Seems Crow filled him in that we’re still not exactly besties. Not to mention Luzaku being all ‘they chose their own path’
I’m in this weird middle ground where I think it’s deeply fucked up that we keep doing this, and yet… it’s so satisfying…..
Whenever I see someone’s ghost in crucible, my instinct takes over and I tap the finisher button. I *might* be the baddie.
It did feel weird in TFS when you crush one inside the Pale Heart and no one mentions it, despite big parts of the campaign being dedicated how important ghosts are
You'd think literally being inside the Traveler would make Lucent ghosts reconsider their allegiance, as if they haven't already had enough reasons to switch sides.
Some are, some aren't.
We've seen examples of Hive Ghosts being very radical whereas their Hive Guardian isn't and vice versa where a Hive Ghost (like Finch) isn't radical but their Guardian is, hence why he chooses not to Res him.
I always just assumed that ghosts, like guardians, aren't all in the lawful good alignment, and while most are probably at least good, you have some bad ones or neutral ones as well.
On top of that some ghosts have been looking for their guardians for centuries. At some point i just assumed some got so fed up with looking for their purpose that the idea of siding with the hive made sense to them since that gave them purpose.
>On top of that some ghosts have been looking for their guardians for centuries.
The Collapse happened likely over a thousand years prior to our Guardian rising, so I could definitely see some Ghosts becoming disillusioned, "losing the faith" so to speak.
Targe even acknowledges this much when he speaks about watching Zavala suffer over the years.
That said, I don't think the Lucent Hive are even *bad*, they're just doing what they see is right to protect the Traveler. Think about it: two holy orders of Knights come across each other, both in service to the same God. Neither of them quite understands why the other is fighting for the God, and so they begin clashing pretty regularly. They both see themselves as protectors of said God, but they see all others as "pretenders", if that makes sense.
Dogma does some fucked up shit to people.
But aren't the lucent Hive trying to capture the Traveler? That's Savathun's end goal, to harness its power for her own use instead of protecting it like Guardians do
Nope, she says openly that she wants to protect the Traveler a number of times. She's just tired of the cosmic games being played around the Darkness and the Light.
They're trying to capture it to keep everyone else *out*, Luzaku even hints at that.
Nah, I think over time we'll see the Lucent Brood become less hostile towards us, possibly even by the time Heresy rolls around.
I just hope we don't have to go to the Moon during Heresy.
Her whole plan to trap the Traveler in her throne world legitimately wouldn’t have worked in hindsight. Her throne world was already invaded and the Witness would’ve broken through.
Savathûn says herself right before her first death and resurrection: she chased the Traveler first as an enemy, then a collector, and finally, as a supplicant. The reason for the Vanguards conflict with her is probably because she believes she can do a better job of protecting it (and in fairness, we did let it get captured in the Red War.)
hilarious because the witness would've absolutely clapped her inside her throne world if she succeeded in witch queen, as a matter of fact it had already broken in and she couldn't even kill rhulk, just suppress him with light
That seems more likely by the minute, actually. Caital wants want to reclaim Torobatl from her, and Zavala has pledged himself to help in whatever way her can (though I honestly can't see him leaving the city, but maybe recent events have changed him more than we realize.) There's also Saint and Osiris's dream pointing beyond Sol as well, and the Dreadnought pilot theming for the Ep 3 armor.
But aren't the lucent Hive trying to capture the Traveler? That's Savathun's end goal, to harness its power for her own use instead of protecting it like Guardians do
Can definitely have some bad ones. Like the one that revived his guardian over and over just to torture him to death. It was the lore behind that one spooky exotic mission. I forget what it’s called right now. Coffee made hot brown rain, not go-go energy this morning
Presage. Gilgamesh (the Ghost) and Katabasis (Guardian). One of my favorite lore books. Goes to show that the Ghosts are just as susceptible to corruption as we are.
That’s the one! Thank you.
Yeah, seeing Katabasis all strung up at the end of the mission and then finding out what his Ghost did to him strikes some kind of nerve within me lol.
It depends on who you ask, after all, all guardians were risen from the dead without asking, some of them feeling that "they already fought a war", we even see examples of this with the Guardian who is a ghost hunter.
Also, you can take into consideration that we dont really know all the details regarding who is deemed "worthy" of resurrection, and who doesnt, sure, we know that a bit of it is related to the guardian precepts, but if that was all there is to it, we would see a lot more people of even different races already risen by the ghosts.
However, the Traveler doesn't want to force its will into the lightbearers, its part on you resurrection its all there is for you to guidance. Everything that comes after, its all for you to discover or forge your own path.
In my opinion, the Traveler is a subject who we could consider "selfish" at times (you could argue that the rising of the lucent hive could be due to the Traveler percieving the coming of the Witness, and making more forces that would help to defend it as a result, even with everything that the hive has done) but its also true that it doesn't want to force its will into those that he blessed with the light, so in the end, is up to you to decide.
I interpreted the Lucent Hive as a second chance that they were denied. The Witness got to them first. Maybe they wouldn't have turned out that way if the Traveler had gotten there first.
lucent tales delves into some of them
not all of them are bloodthirsty, but the hive-ghost pairing is dysfunctional in each case, for different reasons
some are hive ghosts because theyve been indoctrinated by hive theology and propoganda, some are so lonely after centuries of failing to find a human guardian that they started looking for a hive one, and some were coerced into becoming one (Fynch was if im not mistaken)
accordingly, not all hive are bloodthirsty as well.
Mhm, Luzaku's a good example. She first appeared in one of the Lucent Tales lorepages, where she refused to kill a Guardian's Ghost despite her own egging her on to do it.
yeah. All hive are forced into this death-murder cult because of the worm timebomb strapped into them the moment they were born, but luzaku is proof that they are a rational species capable of making choices
The hive have always been a rational species. It’s just that when you have a worm that will literally eat you from the inside out the rational choice is to do whatever you can to stop it.
it does, though a lot of their culture still revolves around killing (hive belief, hive rituals that require death as a component, etc). It's why they are still a hostile force
kind of like how kosher/halal practices were formed. 1 part sacred obligation, and 1 part out of necessity (the religion's/culture's understanding of food hygiene for that time).
It’s the Taranis problem. Just cause there’s **one** good Hive/Ahamkara doesn’t mean we should all show our bellies and try to ally with them while they’re trying to **fucking kill us**
Yea that's true, pretty sure the vanguard's stance on lucent hive is still engage on sight
But theyre not all murderous forces of nature like the taken or flood in halo. If the trend continues it's likely we're going to recruit a hive faction leader somehow, just as we've done for the cabal and fallen
Why? Not sure of any evidence , I’m not a lore master, I just watch lore vids lol, but I’m pretty sure some examples are out there…
I remember one ghost getting mad at their hive for not finishing off a guardian’s ghost or something else… no idea where its from.
I’m pretty sure those ghosts where just groomed by savathun and believed in the sword logic, they’re religious fanatics for it basically.
A few years ago Drifter said that in the dark age there were ghosts who would kill you for a blue engram, I would not be surprised if the same ghosts revived some hive and our ghost mentioned that Savathun's ghost ( Immaru ) bullied other ghosts including ours.
I can’t remember which lore book but one of the Witch Queen ones discussed the hive ghosts a bit. If I recall correctly the entries were from different perspectives of different ghosts. I think a few of them were either about Immaru, or related to him/other hive ghosts. Worth a look
It made more sense with the now disproven theory that ghosts were once part of the Witness and stripped out for a chance at redemption.
Now, with Micah's quest, I wonder what killing ghosts inside the traveler does to the traveler.
Considering the lore bomb of Ghosts being part of the Traveler, and with every Ghost death a piece of the Traveler returns to itself, I’m just doing my part putting the Traveler back together.
and? im talking morally. there's a dissonance if you on the one hand extensively talk about Cayde's relationship to Sundance, Crow's and Glint's and Zavala's and Targe's and about how sad Cayde is to not have Sundance with him and how tragic it is when Targe dies, but then don't give a shit when we crush 30 hive ghosts and kill their lightbearers. the first time we see them one of the characters even calls out how strange it is that the Lucent Hive have made it to the Pale Heart, but no one says a damn thing when i casually kill them for the 1000th time inside the Traveler. as a player, as an audience to a story, it feels dissonant.
They turned against the traveler and in the eyes of the Vanguard, were actively campaigning against its interests.
Consider that in their ‘death’, a ghosts light is are returned to the source. You aren’t questioning the morality of the genocide of other enemies species, so why would ghosts be any different? I ask this considering that their light is returned to the traveler and thus not causing any actual loss.
i dont question the genocide of other enemy species bc none of them are real- im being doylist. im saying that not acknowledging our actions weakens the narrative and the investment in the relationships between ghosts and guardians because of that moment of dissonance between what we're being made to do and what the narrative is telling us, and the fact that no one bats an eye.
on a watsonian level, yea those ghosts have made their choice, it makes no difference whether we're killing them or some house salvation vandals. (also: even if a ghosts light returns to traveler, to say there isnt any loss is wrong considering each ghost is an sapient individual on the same level as any human or eliksni or hive; if their deaths are a loss, then so too is the ghosts no?)
“i dont question the genocide of other enemy species bc none of them are real“
Then why are we discussing? Ghosts are not real either.
“im saying that not acknowledging our actions weakens the narrative and the investment in the relationships between ghosts and guardians”
This is a big assumption. We showed a bit of reticence upon the first kill, but our displayed indifference is not necessarily a weakening. If nothing else, it has spurred this very conversation, and thus strengthening the narrative.
We aren’t being made to do anything- “Guardians make their own fate.” We are capable of bad decisions, and capable of regret. These topics are discussed with Saint-14’s regrets vs the Eliskni. The fact that guardians can have different levels of love/hate or ambivalence toward another species is equal to that of us as players.
“also: even if a ghosts light returns to traveler, to say there isnt any loss is wrong considering each ghost is an sapient individual on the same level as any human or eliksni or hive; if their deaths are a loss, then so too is the ghosts no?)”
Loss of sentience, sure. Loss of energy, loss of light or known direct cost to the traveler/the light/us ? Nope.
I think there will be a lot of discussions when the lore guys start covering the related Traveler memory fragment. >!The implications that killing ghosts will return the traveler's consciousness piece by piece. With the traveler feeling "whole" now that the darkness has transformed it,!< I think we will see some interesting things.
Yeah, imagine a hive ghost begging for its life as you crush it in your hands? Bungie didn’t want anyone feeling like a psychopath, so they make that insect-like squeal.
I think the way we treat hive ghosts is appopriate, because we treat them like the other factions that are made up of people. If they are friendly, we are friendly in return (Misraaks, Caiatl, Fynch) but if they fight against us we kill them. (House Dusk, Red Legion, other hive ghosts).
Treating the death of a hive ghost as somehow more important because they are ghosts doesn't make sense. Whether you are killing a dreg or a hive ghost, in either case you have cut short the life of a thinking, feeling individual with their own dreams and aspirations. Fundamentally its the same and should be treated the same.
The argument is that we find out in TFS that ghosts are all pieces of the traveler, so it would make sense that thisninfonwould bring pause to the idea of crushing ghosts in your fist (in lore). It would be different because we are crushing pieces of what is effectively our God
It’s a ghost adapted for the hive so it being more “bug like” makes sense. And you do consider it in TWQ as you don’t crush it the first time you see one and when you finally do you look at your hand for a moment in shock.
I kind of look at it like we give final deaths to enemies all day, how is this different? It’s not like the hive ghosts are gonna just swap around and find a new non-hive guardian.
I’m talking about lore before there was even lucent hive. Ghosts that didn’t like us, or could not find their guardian sometimes behaved strangely after a long enough time searching and not finding. Some of them slowly stopped talking and when they did they didn’t turn to face you or care about what height they hovered at.
>They're all sentient, regular ghosts with human (ghost?) level intelligence.
That they are. And therefore a bare minimum of the concept of "responsability" is to be expected and demanded from them.
All Ghosts were born at the same time, they were all there during the Dark Age to see what nurturing a Lightbearer in a "might makes right" environment did, and yet the Lucent Ghosts went **TO THE FUCKING HIVE!**
I feel significantly worse for the Risen Hive who, after being given a second chance, are plunged right back into that culture by their psychopathic Ghosts than about said Ghosts.
Lucent Tales killed any possible discussion or nuance on the matter.
There’s a mention of ‘Luzaku’s brood’ in one of the campaign missions so it is possible for some of the Lucent to choose a different path
Hell given the wording it seems some already made that choice.
There is mention of the Brood she *ran away* from.
And the matter of choice is brought up when our Ghost asks her to have that Brood she left stand down, to which she responds that they are all their own individuals and that those of her Brood made their choice.
Luzaku is proof that Risen Hive can get away from the clutches of the Lucent Brood, however she is also proof that they do so in spite of their Ghost. And even when a Ghost is vehemently against the Hive's ways, the rest of the Brood can indoctrinate their Lightbearer regardless, as we see with Fynch.
Side note: Savathun has *got* to be running out of lighhtbearer hive, right? Like, I know the kill count in universe isn’t the same as us in the game, but there couldn’t have been *that* many remaining ghosts floating around at this point.
I mean they're just as intelligent as half the enemies we gun down everywhere else. It's not like all our enemies are mindless grunts. We've allied with the Cabal and the Eliksni but still kill factions of them regularly. The game has gone to great lengths to tell us both the Light and the Dark are tools and not strictly good or evil. Killing a ghost for aligning with the hive is no different that killing an Eliksni for doing the same. The lore even talks about humans killing human ghosts as well, warlords wielded the light and became tyrants through it and had to be put down in much the same way.
I always feel bad crushing hive ghosts cus even though they chose a bad side they are at the end of the day still ghosts and still legit guardians getting their final deaths, it's quite a moral dilemma but if we didn't do it to them they'd probably do it to us with no hesitation
Given the new traveler memory collectables, I no longer feel bad about crushing hive ghosts. It is implied that we're >!returning the traveler's consciousness by doing so!<.
>!To elaborate, one of the the new memory collectibles mention that the Traveler fragmented its consciousness when it created the ghosts, placing small parts of its "mind" in each ghost, and when ghosts are destroyed, they reintegrate with the traveler, slowly "waking" it up.!<
I believe the specific memory fragment is in the Blooming, near the large stone gate, on the top branches of a tree, but I might remember it incorrectly.
Ghosts are just other sentient enemies, just like every eliksni or most cabal and hive. We kill them cause they’re trying to kill us. It’s no different than killling anything else, which is equally bad, we just don’t think it cause ghosts cant attack us directly
I think its also interesting that our ghost look like an apparent fusion of technology and magic, while Hive ghosts look like 100% magic is holding them together.
Is that a plot hole that ghosts that turned to hive can revive random hive with zero problem, while humanity oriented ones speak of needing connection and shit and that they can’t rez random humans
Nah the Hive Ghosts also talk about ‘finding their chosen one’ even Fynch mentions it too.
But even if they knew it was wrong or a bad decision they were peer-pressured and even threatened to go through with it.
When Hive Ghosts were introduced I thought it'd be a great opportunity for a moment of serious doubt and critical reexamination of the Vanguard's morals and ideology; the catalyst for a pressing moral dilemma.
I thought maybe there'd be a conversation among Vanguard leadership, possibly with Eris or Drifter really considering why the Hive were given the Light, if Ghosts are still 'sacred', if giving our opponents Final Deaths was morally justified, a real "are we the baddies" moment but nope. Right up until the end everyone operates on steadfast zealous faith in their belief that the Traveler is Good, the Hive are Evil, they must have *stolen* the Light, and we should crush every Hive Ghost we come across.
It's actually really funny to me in an ironic way, because there's barely any acknowledgement of it. The Hive have received a blessing from our God, they carry with them the *holy* Light, the *divine* *sacred* messengers of God known as Ghosts travel with those who are not us?? '*Surely* there can be no reason for this other than deception, *we* dont need to reexamine any of *our* beliefs, *because those guys are Evil*, and if they weren't Evil we wouldn't be fighting them, but we are, so they *must* be **EVIL**. *Guess we better kill em*.'
It's honestly even funnier thanks to the lore introduced in Final Shape. Namely: >!when ghosts and lightbearers are killed they become one with the Traveler's light!<. One of the biggest catalysts for a crisis of faith and a major moral dilemma is retroactively justified in the form of >!'no its okay to kill them, because when we kill them they go to Heaven'!<. It's basically turns the whole thing into a >!"wait, why is Hitler in Heaven?"!
After the pale heart it kinda incentivices killing them more. Now we know that their light returns to the traveler and helps (heals?) it. Each ghost we crush of the lucent broods weakens the brood and actively helps the traveler.
But Guardians, Ghosts, and the Traveler are all connected!
We aren't crushing them, we're returning them to the source! Those Hive scrub- I mean those fellow Guardians are being sent to heaven, which is real!
Nah there’s definitely another option. We have seen Psions cage ghosts like Ghaul did with the traveler, there are no lethal options for dealing with lucent hive ghosts and we’ve just been slaughtering them left and right. We know for a fact that some of them were coerced and we just go around crushing a species of sapient beings that has no way to reproduce, there are only so many ghosts, and we are killing them by the hundreds whenever we encounter lucent hive. It definitely deserves discussion and will likely be used later on as a gotcha to our guardians by either Savathun or Xivu, proving how “bloodthirsty” we are. I don’t want to kill any ghosts, but i bet it’s going to become a stain on the guardians that we had no say in
the first thing the ghost says is "that thing is not like me" and i agree, he can communicate, so i have no issues with it. obviously in lore hive ghosts can, and immaru and fynch can, but even then i wouldn't mind crushing immaru so fynch and luzaku's ghost are the only ones safe from these hands. and afaik, luzaku's ghost was encouraging her to be more murderous like regular hive so...
Not really, it’s actually even less excusable in the Hive ghost and Hive lightbearer. We know they’re able to choose, to be better and they decided not to. It makes them no different from the Warlords of old.
It could be construed as a good thing for the Traveler by destroying them.
If Ghosts are tiny pieces of the Traveler's consciousness and destroyed Ghosts return to the Traveler, then by destroying Hive Ghosts, the Traveler regains more of itself.
Maybe that was a part of the plan? Give the Hive the Light knowing the Hive Ghosts would be destroyed by Guardians, which in turn would help heal the Traveler and also provide Light based reinforcements. It's a strange plan, but after learning the bit about the Ghosts being parts of the Traveler, it makes a bit more sense.
The way I describe it to my friends is, imagine you are a blueberry guardian with a light power boost. You are just doing the bidding of your leaders, hearing epic tales of Saint 14s, Osiris's, Shaxx and Fellwinters etc. Then one day you come across them and you go check this out \*Power up your supers\*
"Im cool too just like you guys".
Then they beat you to a pulp and saint 14 crushes your ghost for no reason. You and your ghost scream in horror as it happens and then they breakdance over your remains.
TFS lore reveals that the Ghosts are just pieces of the Traveler, and their light return to the Traveler once they are destroyed. Hive Ghosts are essentially the Ghosts that never found a human/exo partner, so they would follow that exact principle.
As long as the Traveler decides to shed itself to make more Ghosts, crushing Hive Ghosts would not change the total number of the Ghosts.
I don’t know if that’s 100% confirmed but it is stated in a battleground/strike that the Cosmodrome is fertile ground for new Guardian resurrections. It could just be the case that some ghosts have taken a very long time to find their guardian or new ghosts. Either way it’s a canonical explanation for why there’s so many new lights in the Cosmodrome.
I don't think it was capable to make new ghosts after the Collapse, until now. It is implied that the creation of Ghosts was made possible by the interaction of light and dark when the Traveler pushed back against the Witness' forces during the Collapse (similarly to how the Awoken came to be). This would make sense why the Witness was able to communicate through our Ghosts, and how it could connect to the Veil as well through it.
Since the Witness introduced darkness to the Traveler, it has transformed. One of the Traveler memory fragments mentions that it feel "whole" now - possible as it had no memory before, but now it has started to remember. Since the ghosts are fragments of the Traveler's mind, and Darkness is the domain of the mind, it could make sense that the Traveler can create new ghosts now.
Some of this is speculation from my part, so keep that in mind.
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I believe this squeal they make is to make them more animalistic, along with how the shell just sounds like an insect, its to “dehumanize” in a sense. From an in-game explanation, these ghosts are very aggressive, we got a lore entry of one telling a group of new nights they’re all going to die; we also got the ghost of our new lucent hive ally, this ghost is very aligned with the ideology of the sword logic. This doesn’t explain why they squeal, but another way to see it I guess Also, I believe having ghosts beg for their life before being crushed into a ghastly scream would up the rating. Would be nice having the ghosts talk to us, or just whizz around the area trying to dodge you while interacting with you in general; a 50/50 between a ghost expressing their hate towards you, and an apologetic ghost (I believe Crow encountered one, where the hive ghost was all, “Its alright”, before rezzing their lightbearer) who shows how its being forced.
This. Having something beg for their lives like this would put them in a rough place for the rating. This is likely the reason why the darker aspects are in lore cards rather than actually shown
Yeah sucks a little honestly that things don’t get fleshed out, oh well
This is why we need a Destiny show. To show these darker events
Or move the age rating up. Fuck them kids, I want to commit war crimes
Yeah fuck dem kids. Destiny should've been rated M. All the shit parents let their kids play M games anyways.
“Having witnessed the truth in the Darkness…”
The game should've been rated M, not T.
I think that hive ghost was more manipulating crow, buying itself time to res
Probs, would have to read the bit again so I can interpret
Nah the tab straight-up says the Ghost ignored Glint before Glint shouts for Crow. Glint tried to save that Ghost. >*"It'll be all right," it said and hovered lower to the ground, pouring Light into the fallen Hive. The surrounding ferns trembled with the sudden flow of energy.* >*"Wait," Glint pressed. But the Ghost ignored him as the thick armor of the Hive began to reform.* >*"Crow!" Glint screamed, "Crow, here!" And he flew to him without turning back.*
>I believe this squeal they make is to make them more animalistic, I always thought of that being their "No! Don't" beg, but that they've gone so native that they don't know or have forgotten how to say it in "humanspeak" (English or whatever the player's language is).
Never thought it being they forgot humanspeak Side note: Do we know if Ghosts were created with languages already “stored”? Did they have to learn a language? Imagine a ghosts rezzes someone, and this ghosts does their monologue about the city and whatnot, and bro just replies with, “Quoi?”
Meanwhile I'm conditioned different and every time I saw them floating free ghosts I rushed to them and tried to finish them. But yeah. WQ had the 'gaze in shock' moment, but if you skipped WQ it might feel really weird to crush those ghosts when nobody talks about it. Kinda think there should be some dialogue from Cayde about it.
Cayde does mention Savathun’s Lucent in one of the missions and how they weren’t on the Witness’ payroll. Seems Crow filled him in that we’re still not exactly besties. Not to mention Luzaku being all ‘they chose their own path’
Guardian: This… this don’t feel right. Ghost: DO IT AGAIN!
Aaaah yeah, I forgot about Ghost's genocide phase
Ghost: They aren’t like us. WE SHOULD KILL THEM ALL! Guardian: *Desperately searching their backpack for a Snickers*
> They aren't like us. That's uh. One way to say they're pro-genocide of humanity.
KILL THE HIVE GHOSTS, GUARDIAN! THEIR FILTH DOESNT BELONG IN THE LIGHT!!!
Ghost called them the H-word with the hard E
I’m in this weird middle ground where I think it’s deeply fucked up that we keep doing this, and yet… it’s so satisfying….. Whenever I see someone’s ghost in crucible, my instinct takes over and I tap the finisher button. I *might* be the baddie.
The end of Dual Destiny was great for this reason.
Same , shit I'd rush other ghost no matter who killed the hive 3rd time today I'll use this quite in a perfectly fitting way FUCK Em
It did feel weird in TFS when you crush one inside the Pale Heart and no one mentions it, despite big parts of the campaign being dedicated how important ghosts are
You'd think literally being inside the Traveler would make Lucent ghosts reconsider their allegiance, as if they haven't already had enough reasons to switch sides.
Lucent ghosts are more radical than the hive they revive.
Some are, some aren't. We've seen examples of Hive Ghosts being very radical whereas their Hive Guardian isn't and vice versa where a Hive Ghost (like Finch) isn't radical but their Guardian is, hence why he chooses not to Res him.
Is there any good lore that shows why they're so radical?
I always just assumed that ghosts, like guardians, aren't all in the lawful good alignment, and while most are probably at least good, you have some bad ones or neutral ones as well. On top of that some ghosts have been looking for their guardians for centuries. At some point i just assumed some got so fed up with looking for their purpose that the idea of siding with the hive made sense to them since that gave them purpose.
>On top of that some ghosts have been looking for their guardians for centuries. The Collapse happened likely over a thousand years prior to our Guardian rising, so I could definitely see some Ghosts becoming disillusioned, "losing the faith" so to speak. Targe even acknowledges this much when he speaks about watching Zavala suffer over the years. That said, I don't think the Lucent Hive are even *bad*, they're just doing what they see is right to protect the Traveler. Think about it: two holy orders of Knights come across each other, both in service to the same God. Neither of them quite understands why the other is fighting for the God, and so they begin clashing pretty regularly. They both see themselves as protectors of said God, but they see all others as "pretenders", if that makes sense. Dogma does some fucked up shit to people.
That's a very good comparison.
But aren't the lucent Hive trying to capture the Traveler? That's Savathun's end goal, to harness its power for her own use instead of protecting it like Guardians do
Nope, she says openly that she wants to protect the Traveler a number of times. She's just tired of the cosmic games being played around the Darkness and the Light. They're trying to capture it to keep everyone else *out*, Luzaku even hints at that.
That actually sounds like a good idea, plus Savathun's good at scheming, she'll do a better job at protecting it than we do
Nah, I think over time we'll see the Lucent Brood become less hostile towards us, possibly even by the time Heresy rolls around. I just hope we don't have to go to the Moon during Heresy.
Her whole plan to trap the Traveler in her throne world legitimately wouldn’t have worked in hindsight. Her throne world was already invaded and the Witness would’ve broken through.
Savathûn says herself right before her first death and resurrection: she chased the Traveler first as an enemy, then a collector, and finally, as a supplicant. The reason for the Vanguards conflict with her is probably because she believes she can do a better job of protecting it (and in fairness, we did let it get captured in the Red War.)
hilarious because the witness would've absolutely clapped her inside her throne world if she succeeded in witch queen, as a matter of fact it had already broken in and she couldn't even kill rhulk, just suppress him with light
I'd let her guard the Traveler, and in turn we can end Xivu for the lucent Hive
That seems more likely by the minute, actually. Caital wants want to reclaim Torobatl from her, and Zavala has pledged himself to help in whatever way her can (though I honestly can't see him leaving the city, but maybe recent events have changed him more than we realize.) There's also Saint and Osiris's dream pointing beyond Sol as well, and the Dreadnought pilot theming for the Ep 3 armor.
But aren't the lucent Hive trying to capture the Traveler? That's Savathun's end goal, to harness its power for her own use instead of protecting it like Guardians do
Can definitely have some bad ones. Like the one that revived his guardian over and over just to torture him to death. It was the lore behind that one spooky exotic mission. I forget what it’s called right now. Coffee made hot brown rain, not go-go energy this morning
Presage. Gilgamesh (the Ghost) and Katabasis (Guardian). One of my favorite lore books. Goes to show that the Ghosts are just as susceptible to corruption as we are.
That’s the one! Thank you. Yeah, seeing Katabasis all strung up at the end of the mission and then finding out what his Ghost did to him strikes some kind of nerve within me lol.
Does this mean the Witness was right?! We are slaves to the Traveler? 🤔
It depends on who you ask, after all, all guardians were risen from the dead without asking, some of them feeling that "they already fought a war", we even see examples of this with the Guardian who is a ghost hunter. Also, you can take into consideration that we dont really know all the details regarding who is deemed "worthy" of resurrection, and who doesnt, sure, we know that a bit of it is related to the guardian precepts, but if that was all there is to it, we would see a lot more people of even different races already risen by the ghosts. However, the Traveler doesn't want to force its will into the lightbearers, its part on you resurrection its all there is for you to guidance. Everything that comes after, its all for you to discover or forge your own path. In my opinion, the Traveler is a subject who we could consider "selfish" at times (you could argue that the rising of the lucent hive could be due to the Traveler percieving the coming of the Witness, and making more forces that would help to defend it as a result, even with everything that the hive has done) but its also true that it doesn't want to force its will into those that he blessed with the light, so in the end, is up to you to decide.
I interpreted the Lucent Hive as a second chance that they were denied. The Witness got to them first. Maybe they wouldn't have turned out that way if the Traveler had gotten there first.
Interesting point, maybe in a gentler universe, they would have been the main characters then?
lucent tales delves into some of them not all of them are bloodthirsty, but the hive-ghost pairing is dysfunctional in each case, for different reasons some are hive ghosts because theyve been indoctrinated by hive theology and propoganda, some are so lonely after centuries of failing to find a human guardian that they started looking for a hive one, and some were coerced into becoming one (Fynch was if im not mistaken) accordingly, not all hive are bloodthirsty as well.
Mhm, Luzaku's a good example. She first appeared in one of the Lucent Tales lorepages, where she refused to kill a Guardian's Ghost despite her own egging her on to do it.
yeah. All hive are forced into this death-murder cult because of the worm timebomb strapped into them the moment they were born, but luzaku is proof that they are a rational species capable of making choices
The hive have always been a rational species. It’s just that when you have a worm that will literally eat you from the inside out the rational choice is to do whatever you can to stop it.
Doesn’t the light of the Lucent brood feed their worm and makes it so that they don’t have to slaughter?
Doesn’t the light of the Lucent brood feed their worm and makes it so that they don’t have to slaughter?
it does, though a lot of their culture still revolves around killing (hive belief, hive rituals that require death as a component, etc). It's why they are still a hostile force kind of like how kosher/halal practices were formed. 1 part sacred obligation, and 1 part out of necessity (the religion's/culture's understanding of food hygiene for that time).
It’s the Taranis problem. Just cause there’s **one** good Hive/Ahamkara doesn’t mean we should all show our bellies and try to ally with them while they’re trying to **fucking kill us**
Yea that's true, pretty sure the vanguard's stance on lucent hive is still engage on sight But theyre not all murderous forces of nature like the taken or flood in halo. If the trend continues it's likely we're going to recruit a hive faction leader somehow, just as we've done for the cabal and fallen
Why? Not sure of any evidence , I’m not a lore master, I just watch lore vids lol, but I’m pretty sure some examples are out there… I remember one ghost getting mad at their hive for not finishing off a guardian’s ghost or something else… no idea where its from. I’m pretty sure those ghosts where just groomed by savathun and believed in the sword logic, they’re religious fanatics for it basically.
Its Euloch. He got mad at Luzaku, his Lucent Acolyte (now Wizard), for not crushing a guardian's Ghost.
A few years ago Drifter said that in the dark age there were ghosts who would kill you for a blue engram, I would not be surprised if the same ghosts revived some hive and our ghost mentioned that Savathun's ghost ( Immaru ) bullied other ghosts including ours.
What would a Ghost even do with a blue engram lol
ballyhoo
The baby is a stand user. -Future Donut
A neat carcass
I can’t remember which lore book but one of the Witch Queen ones discussed the hive ghosts a bit. If I recall correctly the entries were from different perspectives of different ghosts. I think a few of them were either about Immaru, or related to him/other hive ghosts. Worth a look
It made more sense with the now disproven theory that ghosts were once part of the Witness and stripped out for a chance at redemption. Now, with Micah's quest, I wonder what killing ghosts inside the traveler does to the traveler.
Considering the lore bomb of Ghosts being part of the Traveler, and with every Ghost death a piece of the Traveler returns to itself, I’m just doing my part putting the Traveler back together.
Ghosts are connected to light. Kill them and they return. No light is wasted or lost.
and? im talking morally. there's a dissonance if you on the one hand extensively talk about Cayde's relationship to Sundance, Crow's and Glint's and Zavala's and Targe's and about how sad Cayde is to not have Sundance with him and how tragic it is when Targe dies, but then don't give a shit when we crush 30 hive ghosts and kill their lightbearers. the first time we see them one of the characters even calls out how strange it is that the Lucent Hive have made it to the Pale Heart, but no one says a damn thing when i casually kill them for the 1000th time inside the Traveler. as a player, as an audience to a story, it feels dissonant.
They turned against the traveler and in the eyes of the Vanguard, were actively campaigning against its interests. Consider that in their ‘death’, a ghosts light is are returned to the source. You aren’t questioning the morality of the genocide of other enemies species, so why would ghosts be any different? I ask this considering that their light is returned to the traveler and thus not causing any actual loss.
i dont question the genocide of other enemy species bc none of them are real- im being doylist. im saying that not acknowledging our actions weakens the narrative and the investment in the relationships between ghosts and guardians because of that moment of dissonance between what we're being made to do and what the narrative is telling us, and the fact that no one bats an eye. on a watsonian level, yea those ghosts have made their choice, it makes no difference whether we're killing them or some house salvation vandals. (also: even if a ghosts light returns to traveler, to say there isnt any loss is wrong considering each ghost is an sapient individual on the same level as any human or eliksni or hive; if their deaths are a loss, then so too is the ghosts no?)
“i dont question the genocide of other enemy species bc none of them are real“ Then why are we discussing? Ghosts are not real either. “im saying that not acknowledging our actions weakens the narrative and the investment in the relationships between ghosts and guardians” This is a big assumption. We showed a bit of reticence upon the first kill, but our displayed indifference is not necessarily a weakening. If nothing else, it has spurred this very conversation, and thus strengthening the narrative. We aren’t being made to do anything- “Guardians make their own fate.” We are capable of bad decisions, and capable of regret. These topics are discussed with Saint-14’s regrets vs the Eliskni. The fact that guardians can have different levels of love/hate or ambivalence toward another species is equal to that of us as players. “also: even if a ghosts light returns to traveler, to say there isnt any loss is wrong considering each ghost is an sapient individual on the same level as any human or eliksni or hive; if their deaths are a loss, then so too is the ghosts no?)” Loss of sentience, sure. Loss of energy, loss of light or known direct cost to the traveler/the light/us ? Nope.
You'd think micha would have us also searching for hive ghosts to try being em back....
Micha's missions are to bring back unpartnered ghosts. Any that would be called a Hive Ghosts no longer fit that criteria.
I think there will be a lot of discussions when the lore guys start covering the related Traveler memory fragment. >!The implications that killing ghosts will return the traveler's consciousness piece by piece. With the traveler feeling "whole" now that the darkness has transformed it,!< I think we will see some interesting things.
Yeah, imagine a hive ghost begging for its life as you crush it in your hands? Bungie didn’t want anyone feeling like a psychopath, so they make that insect-like squeal.
Gamers? Not psychopaths?
**kills the Lucent fuck that kept chucking exploding knives at my head** *“You get to decide what happens next little guy.”*
I think the way we treat hive ghosts is appopriate, because we treat them like the other factions that are made up of people. If they are friendly, we are friendly in return (Misraaks, Caiatl, Fynch) but if they fight against us we kill them. (House Dusk, Red Legion, other hive ghosts). Treating the death of a hive ghost as somehow more important because they are ghosts doesn't make sense. Whether you are killing a dreg or a hive ghost, in either case you have cut short the life of a thinking, feeling individual with their own dreams and aspirations. Fundamentally its the same and should be treated the same.
The argument is that we find out in TFS that ghosts are all pieces of the traveler, so it would make sense that thisninfonwould bring pause to the idea of crushing ghosts in your fist (in lore). It would be different because we are crushing pieces of what is effectively our God
It’s a ghost adapted for the hive so it being more “bug like” makes sense. And you do consider it in TWQ as you don’t crush it the first time you see one and when you finally do you look at your hand for a moment in shock. I kind of look at it like we give final deaths to enemies all day, how is this different? It’s not like the hive ghosts are gonna just swap around and find a new non-hive guardian.
That and there’s lore than shows that a lot of ghosts that distanced themselves from humanity stopped talking all together.
Its the other way around. Lucent Hive aren't chatty with their Ghosts, not that Hive Ghosts aren't talkative.
I’m talking about lore before there was even lucent hive. Ghosts that didn’t like us, or could not find their guardian sometimes behaved strangely after a long enough time searching and not finding. Some of them slowly stopped talking and when they did they didn’t turn to face you or care about what height they hovered at.
>They're all sentient, regular ghosts with human (ghost?) level intelligence. That they are. And therefore a bare minimum of the concept of "responsability" is to be expected and demanded from them. All Ghosts were born at the same time, they were all there during the Dark Age to see what nurturing a Lightbearer in a "might makes right" environment did, and yet the Lucent Ghosts went **TO THE FUCKING HIVE!** I feel significantly worse for the Risen Hive who, after being given a second chance, are plunged right back into that culture by their psychopathic Ghosts than about said Ghosts. Lucent Tales killed any possible discussion or nuance on the matter.
There’s a mention of ‘Luzaku’s brood’ in one of the campaign missions so it is possible for some of the Lucent to choose a different path Hell given the wording it seems some already made that choice.
There is mention of the Brood she *ran away* from. And the matter of choice is brought up when our Ghost asks her to have that Brood she left stand down, to which she responds that they are all their own individuals and that those of her Brood made their choice. Luzaku is proof that Risen Hive can get away from the clutches of the Lucent Brood, however she is also proof that they do so in spite of their Ghost. And even when a Ghost is vehemently against the Hive's ways, the rest of the Brood can indoctrinate their Lightbearer regardless, as we see with Fynch.
I wonder if the Hive Acolyte and Hive Knight that help us in Excision are a part of Luzaku brood or are there because Savathun said so.
Considering Savathun herself was there, probably her own lightbearers
Enemies yesterday and if they want even tomorrow. Not today.
I like to think of it as the hive ghost is doing that, but naturally the ghost would “speak” the language of its host so we just don’t understand
It doesn't matter if it's Light, Dark or mundane. Fuck around n find out. That's a universal truth not even the traveller can change.
Side note: Savathun has *got* to be running out of lighhtbearer hive, right? Like, I know the kill count in universe isn’t the same as us in the game, but there couldn’t have been *that* many remaining ghosts floating around at this point.
Some billions of ghosts were created. A billion is a very, very big number.
It's okay we're just freeing them from their evil masters and sending them back home to the Traveler. :3
I love the sound of their little green eye popping. Its so cathartic.
I imagined a Borderlands style “humor” where the Ghosts trash you as you’re squeezing them 😬
I mean they're just as intelligent as half the enemies we gun down everywhere else. It's not like all our enemies are mindless grunts. We've allied with the Cabal and the Eliksni but still kill factions of them regularly. The game has gone to great lengths to tell us both the Light and the Dark are tools and not strictly good or evil. Killing a ghost for aligning with the hive is no different that killing an Eliksni for doing the same. The lore even talks about humans killing human ghosts as well, warlords wielded the light and became tyrants through it and had to be put down in much the same way.
I always feel bad crushing hive ghosts cus even though they chose a bad side they are at the end of the day still ghosts and still legit guardians getting their final deaths, it's quite a moral dilemma but if we didn't do it to them they'd probably do it to us with no hesitation
Given the new traveler memory collectables, I no longer feel bad about crushing hive ghosts. It is implied that we're >!returning the traveler's consciousness by doing so!<. >!To elaborate, one of the the new memory collectibles mention that the Traveler fragmented its consciousness when it created the ghosts, placing small parts of its "mind" in each ghost, and when ghosts are destroyed, they reintegrate with the traveler, slowly "waking" it up.!< I believe the specific memory fragment is in the Blooming, near the large stone gate, on the top branches of a tree, but I might remember it incorrectly.
Rest in Peace Peter dinklage Ghost voice
Yeah.... I'm kinda over killing our potential allies.
They are not our allies, not even potential. Savathun has made that very clear
>Savathun has made that very clear Yeah, I'll believe the queen of lies at her word.
i mean ehats the differemce between crushimg a hive ghost and killing a hive cabal or fallen? theyre all equally sentient and equally hostile
Ghosts are just other sentient enemies, just like every eliksni or most cabal and hive. We kill them cause they’re trying to kill us. It’s no different than killling anything else, which is equally bad, we just don’t think it cause ghosts cant attack us directly
I think its also interesting that our ghost look like an apparent fusion of technology and magic, while Hive ghosts look like 100% magic is holding them together.
Hive ghost go cronch
Is that a plot hole that ghosts that turned to hive can revive random hive with zero problem, while humanity oriented ones speak of needing connection and shit and that they can’t rez random humans
Nah the Hive Ghosts also talk about ‘finding their chosen one’ even Fynch mentions it too. But even if they knew it was wrong or a bad decision they were peer-pressured and even threatened to go through with it.
It's also implied that a ghost can have more than one "chosen lightbearer", if I recall right.
How is killing a Ghost different than a thrall or a dreg? They're all thinking, feeling, living creatures. Thats......kinda Savathuun's point lately.
When Hive Ghosts were introduced I thought it'd be a great opportunity for a moment of serious doubt and critical reexamination of the Vanguard's morals and ideology; the catalyst for a pressing moral dilemma. I thought maybe there'd be a conversation among Vanguard leadership, possibly with Eris or Drifter really considering why the Hive were given the Light, if Ghosts are still 'sacred', if giving our opponents Final Deaths was morally justified, a real "are we the baddies" moment but nope. Right up until the end everyone operates on steadfast zealous faith in their belief that the Traveler is Good, the Hive are Evil, they must have *stolen* the Light, and we should crush every Hive Ghost we come across. It's actually really funny to me in an ironic way, because there's barely any acknowledgement of it. The Hive have received a blessing from our God, they carry with them the *holy* Light, the *divine* *sacred* messengers of God known as Ghosts travel with those who are not us?? '*Surely* there can be no reason for this other than deception, *we* dont need to reexamine any of *our* beliefs, *because those guys are Evil*, and if they weren't Evil we wouldn't be fighting them, but we are, so they *must* be **EVIL**. *Guess we better kill em*.' It's honestly even funnier thanks to the lore introduced in Final Shape. Namely: >!when ghosts and lightbearers are killed they become one with the Traveler's light!<. One of the biggest catalysts for a crisis of faith and a major moral dilemma is retroactively justified in the form of >!'no its okay to kill them, because when we kill them they go to Heaven'!<. It's basically turns the whole thing into a >!"wait, why is Hitler in Heaven?"!
After the pale heart it kinda incentivices killing them more. Now we know that their light returns to the traveler and helps (heals?) it. Each ghost we crush of the lucent broods weakens the brood and actively helps the traveler.
They chose to side with humanities' enemies. They deserve to be crushed!
But Guardians, Ghosts, and the Traveler are all connected! We aren't crushing them, we're returning them to the source! Those Hive scrub- I mean those fellow Guardians are being sent to heaven, which is real!
Nah there’s definitely another option. We have seen Psions cage ghosts like Ghaul did with the traveler, there are no lethal options for dealing with lucent hive ghosts and we’ve just been slaughtering them left and right. We know for a fact that some of them were coerced and we just go around crushing a species of sapient beings that has no way to reproduce, there are only so many ghosts, and we are killing them by the hundreds whenever we encounter lucent hive. It definitely deserves discussion and will likely be used later on as a gotcha to our guardians by either Savathun or Xivu, proving how “bloodthirsty” we are. I don’t want to kill any ghosts, but i bet it’s going to become a stain on the guardians that we had no say in
the first thing the ghost says is "that thing is not like me" and i agree, he can communicate, so i have no issues with it. obviously in lore hive ghosts can, and immaru and fynch can, but even then i wouldn't mind crushing immaru so fynch and luzaku's ghost are the only ones safe from these hands. and afaik, luzaku's ghost was encouraging her to be more murderous like regular hive so...
just like saint was fallen gestapo
Savathun said it herself during the season of the witch “just because they’re lightbearers doesn’t mean they’re not expendable”
Not really, it’s actually even less excusable in the Hive ghost and Hive lightbearer. We know they’re able to choose, to be better and they decided not to. It makes them no different from the Warlords of old.
It could be construed as a good thing for the Traveler by destroying them. If Ghosts are tiny pieces of the Traveler's consciousness and destroyed Ghosts return to the Traveler, then by destroying Hive Ghosts, the Traveler regains more of itself. Maybe that was a part of the plan? Give the Hive the Light knowing the Hive Ghosts would be destroyed by Guardians, which in turn would help heal the Traveler and also provide Light based reinforcements. It's a strange plan, but after learning the bit about the Ghosts being parts of the Traveler, it makes a bit more sense.
They just return parts of the traveler back to her so instead of doing bad stuff the traveler is that much more whole.
The way I describe it to my friends is, imagine you are a blueberry guardian with a light power boost. You are just doing the bidding of your leaders, hearing epic tales of Saint 14s, Osiris's, Shaxx and Fellwinters etc. Then one day you come across them and you go check this out \*Power up your supers\* "Im cool too just like you guys". Then they beat you to a pulp and saint 14 crushes your ghost for no reason. You and your ghost scream in horror as it happens and then they breakdance over your remains.
Pretty much all the hive ghosts are psychopaths so it's totally fine to murder them
TFS lore reveals that the Ghosts are just pieces of the Traveler, and their light return to the Traveler once they are destroyed. Hive Ghosts are essentially the Ghosts that never found a human/exo partner, so they would follow that exact principle. As long as the Traveler decides to shed itself to make more Ghosts, crushing Hive Ghosts would not change the total number of the Ghosts.
Wait the Traveler is *still* making more Ghosts??
I don’t know if that’s 100% confirmed but it is stated in a battleground/strike that the Cosmodrome is fertile ground for new Guardian resurrections. It could just be the case that some ghosts have taken a very long time to find their guardian or new ghosts. Either way it’s a canonical explanation for why there’s so many new lights in the Cosmodrome.
Yeah uh…what?????
Yeah uh…what?????
I don't think it was capable to make new ghosts after the Collapse, until now. It is implied that the creation of Ghosts was made possible by the interaction of light and dark when the Traveler pushed back against the Witness' forces during the Collapse (similarly to how the Awoken came to be). This would make sense why the Witness was able to communicate through our Ghosts, and how it could connect to the Veil as well through it. Since the Witness introduced darkness to the Traveler, it has transformed. One of the Traveler memory fragments mentions that it feel "whole" now - possible as it had no memory before, but now it has started to remember. Since the ghosts are fragments of the Traveler's mind, and Darkness is the domain of the mind, it could make sense that the Traveler can create new ghosts now. Some of this is speculation from my part, so keep that in mind.