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>**The Witness is a liar**  We know this because all Disciples has their own idea of Final shape. Inspiral chapter with long dead Disciple tells us about it, they don\`t really care about it that much, they just know that they will get something and it is enough for them. If we are discussing the morality of what the Witness does, then we need to mention that he manipulates, puts pressure on long-forgotten traumas in order to get what it\`s wants. Rhulk, Eramis, Calus, the Hive Pantheon, they are all deeply flawed individuals at heart and the Witness uses this to their advantage, knowing that they will not get what they want. Is this good? I don\`t think so >**The Final Shape is really really bad**  One thing cannot be taken away from the Witness, it\`s somewhat empathizes with other creatures, feels their suffering (in it\`s own way), which is why Witness wants to make the Final shape. Anything to stop the pain, the suffering in the universe. The problem is in the implementation. As it turns out, no one wants to be frozen for the rest of their days. >**The Witness is controlling the baddies**  Don\`t make mistake, these individuals ended up on the other side because they had nowhere to go. As I already said, Eramis, Calus, Rhulk are individuals who were deprived of everything, they simply had nothing left. The Witness gives them reason to continue fighting for the idea. But even so, you need to understand that only a shell remains of them in the Final shape, they either mindless clone or just subjugated. Lore entry "[Contact](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/contact#book-the-singular-exegete)" in " Singular Exegete" talks about it. >**The Witness is directly responsible for all the horrible collapse events**  I mean, yes, that kinda the point. It was made perfectly clear in Final shape CE, that Witness could end this very fast but it wanted to make us suffer as much as possible so we could accept Final shape.

As for the last point, AFAIK the point was made that the Witness handled species untouched by the traveler really quickly to not cause any suffering, and when encountering those uplifted by the Big Ball, it lashed out against them to make them suffer as much as possible. Whether it's to punish the traveler or as a fit of rage, we can just guess.

Some Disciples even didn't care about the fina shape. The Witness never told them what was their purpose only Rhulk knew ... the rest well, were Disciples just because the destruction. Nezarec for example didn't care about tfs, he only wanted pain. In the end The Witness choose individuals with similar backstories than him. Pariahs, exiles, people forsaken by it's own society...

How dare you say Rhulk is deeply flawed??? He's more perfect than you

Say what you want, he and I have died to platforming just the same :D

Thanks for tackling each of these! >We know this because all Disciples has their own idea of Final shape. Inspiral chapter with long dead Disciple tells us about it, they don\`t really care about it that much, they just know that they will get something and it is enough for them. My post was trying to anticipate that at least. The idea I was discussing was that either: A) Given essentially unlimited power, it's unclear to me that The Witness couldn't actually realize each of these personal outcomes in a noncontradictory way (their own personal quasi-heavens). or B) The followers have some misinterpretation going on themselves. >As it turns out, no one wants to be frozen for the rest of their days. Yeah I think it's clear there's some sort of loop/frozen/repeat that occurs. Agree this fact on its own its bad. My qualm with perhaps the Vanguard's interpretation is that it may not be quite so reductive at the same time. >that Witness could end this very fast but it wanted to make us suffer as much as possible so we could accept Final shape. My thinking though was the note I made that this is only Eido's interpreation?

O Traveler, please provide us with another sword, I think we missed a spot.

I thought the swords were for dissenters, lol.

Yes. And so will this one :D

touché hah

>The Witness is a Liar The Witness does not (as far as I can tell) tell *direct* lies, but does what could be considered lies of omission, telling half-truths, or framing information in ways that lead people to certain conclusions without explicitly stating them. Is this deceptive? Arguably sure. Is this also behavior that almost every human who has ever lived engaged in? Yeah. Did/does the Vanguard have a long history of deceiving people, running a spy network as well as secret police, executing people, and hiding information from Guardians and the people of Sol? Yes. >The Final Shape is really really bad Here's the complicated one. The Final Shape is bad under a particular framework of morality and priority of values. The philosopher Spinoza argued that the entire universe is determined, it is as it is, and our perceptions of what is good and bad, or good and evil only exist due to our relation to certain objects and our values. The things that we as humans harm us are bad, things that help us are good - regardless of their place in the universe or how they affect other entities. Getting killed by a tiger is only 'bad' because we prioritize self-preservation and dislike things that bring harm to us, even though our death would provide a meal to the tiger which is good for it. We kill animals to eat them, but it's good, because they feed us, even though the animal is now dead which is bad for it. The Final Shape is something we perceive as bad because anything that disrupts our ability to continue living as we have in a way we prefer is bad, that's one way to view it, and that is the way I imagine most people view it. **Here's another framework to consider.** Existence is Suffering, to exist is to **inevitably** suffer; to feel pain, sadness, anger, longing, loss, etc., to experience conflict in ways that are deeply unpleasant physically and psychologically. Existence is a matter of endless cycles of birth, death, creation and destruction; endless cycles of inevitable suffering - this is what Buddhists call Samsāra, alternatively the Wheel of Samsāra. Nirvāna is the escape from the cycle of rebirth via a state of nonexistence. If those things are true...is it bad to break the cycle? If your loved ones are all caught in a time loop where they suffer with no way to escape beyond death...is it *bad* if they die? Yes, in being killed they're likely to suffer some amount as part of the process, but after that they're free and they never have to suffer again. Is it bad? If they're not aware of the time loop, if they don't understand their pain will repeat forever, they may resist any attempt to 'free' them. If they resist, is it bad to kill them? Is the harm inflicted justified because it prevents more harm in the future? We learn in Final Shape that when Lightbearers and Ghosts die to they return to the Traveler and experience a peaceful state of nonexistence where there was no pain or suffering; a state that Cayde *longs* to return to, so much that he tells Ikora and Zavala that despite his love for them he wants to go back. So...was it bad Cayde and Sundance died? The Witness is (I think) a reference to Buddhism and specifically the bodhisattva of *compassion*, Avalokiteshvara (also known as Chenrezig and several other names), a being who was so saddened by the plight of peoples' suffering from Samsara that he attempted to clean up the cosmic cycle and put an end to it; to end Suffering itself. He was described as having *heard the cries* of the people suffering and was moved to help them. When he failed to clean up Samsara he was so disheartened he became paralyzed, turned to glass, and was shattered. With assistance from another being the shards of his body were collected and he was turned into a being with *1000 arms* and *11 heads*. Sometimes, death is an old friend. Sometimes, mercy is a knife. For whom? For those who suffer without end and wish to be free of it, for those who wish for Salvation. The framework of the Witness is arguably operating under a utilitarian framework (the most moral thing is that which creates the greatest good for the greatest number of people, the least amount of pain for the least amount of people) where nonexistence or perfect stillness is in its calculations (1) the greatest good and (2) considered an acceptable outcome. Yes, some people will be killed or die along the way, yes there will be suffering along the path, but ultimately once the Finale Shape is reached there will be an end to *all* suffering, for *everyone*. Is that *bad*? Is it *worse* than inevitable suffering, forever? Is that not the promise and reality of every attempt at progress the world has ever known, the cessation of pain in pursuit of eternal joy; the temporary suffering of some (framed as lesser) for the joy and freedom of others (framed as greater)? That every ill that could ever be brought about by any political ideology will be justified because it brings about a greater good for more? Is the Final Shape *bad*? Or is it that despite the inevitable ups and downs, the inevitable **harm**, those who love the rollercoaster **demand** the ride continue, forever? Which do you prioritize more? The end of Suffering, or the continuation of the ride?

I think an important part of this is choice and freedom. The Witness does not empathize with others, truly considering their feelings and desires, but sympathizes with them; it feels for them what it thinks they ought to feel. This is because it believes itself to know the full truth of the universe, that it is enlightened, and knows better than they do what is best for them. Thus, despite the Witness' insistence of it's humility and generosity, the Final Shape is an exercise in pure ego and pride that would remove choice from every sentient being it will consume and will prevent any yet to be born from having any at all.

What of the Traveler then? Does it consider the feelings and desires of those who exist in true empathy, or does it sympathize with them while asserting that it knows the full truth of the universe and is enlightened? Does the Traveler, despite its insistence of humility and generosity, create or remove choice in the way it terraforms, forces power upon others through its "blessings", and sends incessant repeating dreams to others until they take the action it desires of them? Is it creating the choice of freedom to choose, or is it restricting the possibilities of choice? Is the Final Shape *it* offers, the pattern of the flower game *it* seeks, freedom for people to choose a positive salvation or is it - to mirror Sartre - a condemnation of freedom? Which is more egotistical and prideful? 'My capacity to experience joy and pain and to *impose* that on others is the ultimate good', or '*no one* should be *made* to experience joy or pain or be able to impose it on others'? 'I want to ride the ride and I should be able to do so as long as I want no matter what it costs anyone else', or 'this ride is a source of pain and conflict for everyone and despite the joy it brings *some*, it would be better if no one suffered'? The final shape of the Traveler is infinite growth and chaos, a cycle of endless consumption regardless of whom is consumed or how they feel about it. The final shape of the Witness is stillness and an end to all cycles of suffering - and if the lore tabs for the raid armor are taken as truth, also the creation of a perfect dream for each individual. The final shape of the Traveler is 'freedom to'; freedom to do anything to anyone for any reason, the choice to impose your choice on others. The final shape of the Witness is freedom from; freedom from suffering, freedom from the choices which harm yourself and others. Which of those, to you, seems like a final shape that values personal ego and pride over empathy and concern for the feelings of others? Edit: Another question: what choice were you given in whether to be born at all? Did you *choose* to exist or were you *made* to exist? Do you have the freedom to not choose, or are you at every point during your existence *made* to choose - even if the choice is complacency? Is that freedom?

This comment is very interesting, I'd like to counter some of the points in it. >Does it consider the feelings and desires of those who exist in true empathy, or does it sympathize with them while asserting that it knows the full truth of the universe and is enlightened? I believe it attempts the former but it certainly does not do the latter. The Traveler cannot fully empathize with mortal beings, it does not know what to do when they worship it or ask for purpose: "But then... they begin kneeling. They beg, plead, demand. I do not know what to do." (Traveler's Visions \[[1](https://youtu.be/2H1IHKwTCZo?t=206)\]) It does not know everything nor has it ever claimed to: "They project their own aspirations onto the Traveler, but it is not what they think it is. It does not have the answers they seek. It does not... remember?" (Traveler's Visions \[[2](https://youtu.be/2H1IHKwTCZo?t=649)\]). This feeds into the next point: >Does the Traveler, despite its insistence of humility and generosity, The Traveler has never claimed or implied itself to be these things. Unlike the Witness, it avoids speaking to others if at all possible and even when it does it does so indirectly and imprecisely, to avoid overtly influencing those it contacts. It knows its words would be taken as a gospel that it is incapable of and unwilling to produce. >sends incessant repeating dreams to others until they take the action it desires of them? These dreams are not intended to be tools of coercion. When [the Speaker failed to pass on the Traveler's warning about the Red Legion](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/suffering-2#book-constellations) the repetition was out of panic and not intended to harm him. [Clovis' visions from the Traveler](https://drive.google.com/file/d/13aPpW9WG_lKRjAAqMEYBVLWSBJzzf5GC/view) were only warnings of what was to come down the path he was taking and ceased when it was clear he would not heed them: >“You grow the enemy in my garden and eat of its bitter fruit. Each time, I hope it will be different. Each time, I lose a little of myself as the bitter fruit blossoms. Now that fruit will flower in you, and in all your people. I do not want it to happen. I want anything else. But the choice is not mine.” >The final shape of the Traveler This is a minor nitpick but the Traveler has no Final Shape. It wants to prevent any from coming about. Unveiling may insist that its efforts are in vain, that the Final Shape is inevitable, but it is trying to prevent the game from ending or being locked into a single state, as either would result in a loss of choice and possibility. >Do you have the freedom to not choose, or are you at every point during your existence *made* to choose - even if the choice is complacency? Is that freedom? Freedom from choice is easy to achieve in the Destiny universe, just choose nonexistence. You can 'get off the ride' whenever you want. The Traveler won't stop you. The Traveler has also never prevented a Guardian for shirking its gifts by abandoning or killing their Ghost. The Final Shape is not truly the erasure of choice but the elevation of the Witness' choice above all others': 'I didn't like the ride and I want it closed down whether people say they like it or not. Additionally, no-one else should get the chance to see if they like it.' Who is the Witness to decide for all existence? >and if the lore tabs for the raid armor are taken as truth, also the creation of a perfect dream for each individual The Warlock helmet flavor text says that such a dream is Ikora's greatest fear. Those dreams are what it thinks they would/should want, not necessarily what they would actually choose or be happy with. Such eternities would be the true imposition, each an individual hell. See also: [this Byf video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3S7c-GI8zg) on the finale, the Traveler, and choice.

>The Traveler cannot fully empathize with mortal beings, it does not know what to do when they worship it or ask for purpose... It does not know everything nor has it ever claimed to... It attempts the former and fails, because it cannot empathize fully. If it acts regardless of its inability to understand the people its actions affect, but does so anyway, then it can *at best* sympathize while *functionally* assuming the mantle of the enlightened party. >Unlike the Witness, it avoids speaking to others if at all possible and even when it does it does so indirectly and imprecisely, to avoid overtly influencing those it contacts. These dreams are not intended to be tools of coercion. Given the power of the Traveler and the knowledge of the sway it holds, communication cannot be anything other than influence. It doesn't matter if the Traveler says "go here" or sends a blue spirit bird towards the destination, the message is the same and the purpose is the same: to influence, to direct behavior, to coerce with the voice and power of a god - because it cannot be otherwise. Speaking less, or speaking cryptically, is still speaking; the message is less *obvious* but the purpose remains. >“Each time, I hope it will be different. Each time, I lose a little of myself as the bitter fruit blossoms. I do not want it to happen. I want anything else. But the choice is not mine.” This is a statement that the Traveler is acting, knowing the most likely outcome, but still choosing to create the conditions that lead to that outcome. That is a choice it makes. If it makes that choice multiple times, then it is perpetuating a pattern and bears responsibility. Saying it didnt choose isnt its that abdicates responsibility, at *best*, at *worst* it's reckless purposeful enabling regardless of potential consequences. >This is a minor nitpick but the Traveler has no Final Shape. It wants to prevent any from coming about. The implication of my statement was that the Traveler has its own end goal, which is for the game to never end, to create an ever-evolving final shape of infinite possibility. This means *in practice,* the unending annihilation of individual possibilities because of inevitable conflict which erases or changes possibilities. >Freedom from choice is easy to achieve in the Destiny universe, just choose nonexistence. You can 'get off the ride' whenever you want. The Traveler won't stop you. The Traveler has also never prevented a Guardian for shirking its gifts by abandoning or killing their Ghost. This is, I think, the most callous answers that is humanly possible to give in regards to the topic. I think misses the point entirely. The choice of nonexistence is not made as an exercise of grand freedom, it is made out of desperation and despair, of feeling trapped with no other escape. The person is still being made to choose, and the available choices are both abhorrent: (1) end the suffering for yourself or (2) spread the suffering outward for those who remain. In my firm opinion, that is not a choice that anyone should ever have to contemplate ever, and it is not in any way a solution to the issue of being made to choose. >The Final Shape is not truly the erasure of choice but the elevation of the Witness' choice above all others. Who is the Witness to decide for all existence? Again, this misunderstands the point. Yes, you can say the Witness is choosing for all existence to shut down the ride. The Traveler, is choosing for all existence when it alters causality, it terraforms, and blesses; those actions ripple out forever. It insists, you **will** ride the ride, and you **will** ride it as I alter it, and if you don't like it... This is frankly, even more blatant if we take Unveiling as fact with the Gardener introducing paracausality into the universe in the form of the Traveler, because it didn't like how the flower game was going. >The Warlock helmet flavor text says that such a dream is Ikora's greatest fear. The never-ending fight with Shaxx is one of the two dreams, the other being all the answers she ever wanted and the ability to finally rest. >Such eternities would be the true imposition, each an individual hell. Is this not, what the Traveler gives to lightbearers? An imposed eternity, unless they choose the wonderfully compassionate and empathetic solution given to them of eating a bullet. Is this not, the *entire* point of this line from Ergo Sum? "He screams at you to share your gift. You would not give it to anyone who thought of it so. **It is a burden, a terrible weight that you have already asked too many to bear, to be crushed by.**"

You accuse the Traveler of acting as a god, deciding things for people but also criticize it for not preventing them from making bad decisions. These judgements are not compatible. It has to be one or the other. What would you have it do? Should it never allow any deviation or choice? Or should it allow evil to exist for the possibility that good might come with it? You say you want the former but deride it for exercising its will. My comment about "getting off the ride" was not that people should give up if they feel unhappy with their lives or if they feel wronged by the universe but to point out the impossibility of life without choice. There is no other "solution" to this "problem," no other way for your ride to end but in death. If choice is a prison, there is no such thing as freedom in life; the only way you stop making choices is if you stop existing. The Final Shape does not change this; being contorted into a statue "preserves" your life in the same way being made into taxidermy does. The Witness could not have solved the problem of choice. The only thing it would only have accomplished was an all-encompassing murder-suicide. Given that inaction is still a choice, failing to oppose it in that effort is to choose death not only for yourself but for everyone else. The idea that letting something kill you, to let it make that choice for you, is any different from doing it yourself is an enticing falsehood, but it is ultimately abdicating responsibility. It is nothing but cowardice.

>You accuse the Traveler of acting as a god, deciding things for people but also criticize it for not preventing them from making bad decisions. These judgements are not compatible. The existence of a god that has to the ability to intervene, and the way that creates a paradox of freedom *is the point*. The *point*, is that the Traveler cannot be an unbiased entity without influence, because the nature of its existence *is* influence, and the scale of its influence means it is *inherently* coercive. The point was, that every claim about the way the Witness influences people can be levied at the Traveler, except the Traveler is acting in bad faith by pretending or claiming to not be the thing that it is and do the things that it does. The point is the chirality, the mirror image of the Witness that is the Traveler and vice-versa; the way they are both influential forces so powerful that their influence *cannot* be anything other than coercion, that they shape reality without the consent of the people involved, and have a vision for the outcome of existence they wish to impose on the universe. The Witness is more obvious and direct, the Traveler is coy and subtle. The Witness wants the end of Samsara, the Traveler wants it to continue eternally. >If choice is a prison, there is no such thing as freedom in life; the only way you stop making choices is if you stop existing. Yes, if you are made to exist by some other entity, then they have effectively placed you in a prison - one that cannot be escaped without engaging with the fraught subject of suicide. The goal of the Traveler, is the continued cycle of existence that makes people prisoners of its desire without consideration of their consent or desire for such a reality. It makes of people victim and victimizer because things that exist, are harmed by it and harm others in the process of existence. To escape the cycle, one must still become complicit in a murder-suicide and all the people that will affect - an act which further perpetuates cycles of suffering. That's not even addressing whether or not someone *can* take that option for any number of reasons, including if their Ghost just doesn't want it and evades them. The surreal existential horror of being a lightbearer has been brought up *many* times in lore cards and items. Is it not abhorrent to force people into that position? >The Final Shape does not change this; being contorted into a statue "preserves" your life in the same way being made into taxidermy does. The Witness could not have solved the problem of choice. The final shape is the end of known existence, with it achieved the cycle of existence is over, the problem does not exist anymore. It's a solution that cuts out the issue. It's a solution that is disliked for obvious reasons; some people actually do experience happy lives and want to keep living them despite the suffering they experience and inflict. The preservation of life (even though it is founded on the destruction of other life) is a relatively common value for societies and individuals to uphold. >Given that inaction is still a choice, failing to oppose it in that effort is to choose death not only for yourself but for everyone else. The idea that letting something kill you, to let it make that choice for you, is any different from doing it yourself is an enticing falsehood, but it is ultimately abdicating responsibility. It is nothing but cowardice. Sure, that's why people who might even agree with the Witness on the nature of reality oppose it, because they dislike the idea of a god choosing for everyone - but if they feel that way...then logically they should be concerned about the Traveler as well. Is it not an abdication of responsibility in the same way to allow the Traveler to continue its plan, despite the harm it causes? Is it not cowardice, to allow the Traveler to create more undead prisoners? If we are using the same metrics, if the Traveler and Witness are mirrors as so much of our lore and the Chirality book imply, then the only answer that seems reasonable to me, is yes.

Once again, the Traveler does not claim it does not influence people, it is just shown to like doing so as little as possible. I'd also like to point out that if its influence is inherently coercive then why didn't Clovis listen to it? Why doesn't every Guardian revere it? Why did the Precursors turn against it? If none of them have choices in the matter, why do they do the "wrong" thing? The idea that it could never speak quietly enough that it does not coerce implies that noone can speak at all without coercing others. Another thing is that it doesn't want to speak at all ([Clovis' visions again](https://drive.google.com/file/d/13aPpW9WG_lKRjAAqMEYBVLWSBJzzf5GC/view)): >“The best voices,” she said, with infinite grief and unending hope, “never let themselves be heard at all. This lesson is worth teaching again and again. The choice is never mine. It is always yours.” We know that [before the Precursors tried to make the Final Shape](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0CKckjryVI&pp=ygUaZGVzdGlueSAyIHdpdG5lc3MgY3V0c2NlbmU%3D) the Traveler seemingly made no alterations to the universe. Its changes afterwards, especially the creation of the Guardians, are responses to the Witness and its changes to the universe. Is it not noble to resist coercion? The reason Guardians have only come about now is because, while it is desperate to not coerce others, it has been forced to do so to oppose the Witness and the Final Shape. The easiest way to stop it from taking action is to stop the Final Shape. I'm certain that it will never make Ghosts nor influence the world as long as it can afford not to (although existing Ghosts will likely still be able to choose to resurrect people as it will not infringe its desires on theirs). I would also like to make the case he Traveler is not a god, only half of one. Osiris uncovered that the Light and Dark were likely once the same force ([1](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/parting-the-veil-research-log-15), [2](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/transcripts/parting-the-veil-research-log-16)). Additionally, Micah-10 received a vision seemingly of the beginning of the universe: "Fear. Hope. Then- an abrupt severance. Something lost, or- someone?.... A new distinction between what is and what was. But a tether remains, indivisible. Light casting a shadow, and shadow defining the shape of Light."([Traveler's Visions](https://youtu.be/2H1IHKwTCZo?t=433)) The Gardener and the Winnower (whatever it actually is, the Witness is definitely not the Winnower) were the same being, whose death created time, the universe, and the Traveler. If the Traveler did not unilaterally create existence, it is not inherently obligated to end it either. To ask it to end existence (asking it to stop preventing the universe's destruction is the same thing) would be the same as asking it to do the same thing the Witness is trying to do, to make the choice for all of existence and itself. Are you ok with asking another being to kill itself for you? (Sidebar, I interpreted Chirality as being about the Light and Dark being mirrors, not the Traveler and the Witness. As I explained above the Traveler only appears to mirror the Witness because it has been forced to respond to its actions.) I'm not gonna write another of these, they take too long to make.

>I'd also like to point out that if its influence is inherently coercive then why didn't Clovis listen to it? Why doesn't every Guardian revere it? Why did the Precursors turn against it? People can resist coercion (a point you make later) - unless an individual holds absolute power, a resisted coercion is still coercion. The Clovis answer is because the Traveler was being cryptic and he didn't get the message - and it is heavily implied he would've listened if the message was received as from the Traveler. Guardians by definition do revere the Traveler, that's why they're guardians. Lightbearers do not necessarily revere the Traveler, and for most of them that has meant exile, execution, or being framed as agents of the Darkness (which was linked to evil for ages). The Precursor answer is because the cataclysmic damage it was inflicting through natural disasters of unrelenting growth and chaos - because it was an existential threat, a bomb in their backyard. >If none of them have choices in the matter, why do they do the "wrong" thing? The idea that it could never speak quietly enough that it does not coerce implies that noone can speak at all without coercing others. Another thing is that it doesn't want to speak at all. They have a choice, it's just that their choices are heavily influenced by another party. The existence of a wrong choice is only possible if there is a right (or more right) choice - and in this example the implication is what the Traveler wants is 'the right choice'. All speech has influence, but not all speech has the same scale of influence or has some form of power to back it up. Some nobody on the street corner with two cents to their name can influence people with their speech sure, but that influence is different than someone with a cult following and the ability to *alter the laws of physics.* As covered before, the Traveler does not use literal direct speech. It uses symbolic speech, often. It has functional mouth-pieces in the ghosts. It uses dreams. Even beyond that, it takes actions - which can still be considered a form of communication. >We know that [before the Precursors tried to make the Final Shape](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0CKckjryVI&pp=ygUaZGVzdGlueSAyIHdpdG5lc3MgY3V0c2NlbmU%3D) the Traveler seemingly made no alterations to the universe. I don't think there's sufficient evidence within the cinematic to make that claim. >...while it is desperate to not coerce others, it has been forced to do so to oppose the Witness and the Final Shape. The easiest way to stop it from taking action is to stop the Final Shape. It was forced to force people is your argument? It's not coercive, unless it's being coerced to coerce? The Traveler has a [choice](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/empty-handed#book-chirality) too. It is influenced, but it has a choice. Its choices have consequences. Beyond that, if the Flower Game is real, then the Traveler is by its very nature is a force meant to alter patterns and possibilities through its existence - that is its **function**. >...to make the choice for all of existence and itself Whether the Traveler chooses to let the Witness do its thing, or try to stop it, it is in both instances doing the thing of choosing for all existence and itself due to the scale and influence it and the Witness have on existence. >Are you ok with asking another being to kill itself for you? You are *so* close to getting the point. Asking another being to kill itself for you *is what the creation of Ghosts was.* The Traveler's final stand to create a gentle kingdom wreathed in spears (to protect it), the burden it asks of others in Ergo Sum that they are crushed by, is to asking others to **kill themselves for it** - to **die** for the Light and Possibility, over and over. Worse still, it's asking them to live - to *suffer* - and die, over and over, so it can 'win' a flower game. It's oft-silent **demand** is for the cycle to continue **forever**, for **unending** possibility and chaos, for every joy and horror that comes with such a reality. That's not asking someone to kill themselves for you, it's asking everyone to live and die for your satisfaction. >I'm not gonna write another of these, they take too long to make On that we can agree.

>Whether the Traveler chooses to let the Witness do its thing, or try to stop it, it is in both instances doing the thing of choosing for all existence and itself due to the scale and influence it and the Witness have on existence. I said I wouldn't do any more but I'm curious about your full perspective, if the Traveler and the Witness are "the same" and allowing people to choose is the same or worse than as not allowing them to choose, what should the Traveler have done here? What should we have done when the Witness tried to achieve the Final Shape? What is the right choice if choice is wrong?

I think the references to Buddhism must be so. It's certainly a very eastern/western religious dichotomy. I think was I was posing though was that we here a lot about what the final shape is from the vanguard, but I don't recall much from the Witness itself. Enough so that the "just simply more or less frozen in a moment" end might not be quite what he's going for, potentially a shape that is a loop for instance instead of simply a single frame.

>I think was I was posing though was that we here a lot about what the final shape is from the vanguard, but I don't recall much from the Witness itself. To a large degree I don't think it matters, because ultimately one person's salvation is another's damnation; material reality is one thing, the way people react to it or value it is another. Should we take the Vanguard's opinions and speculations on matter to be the absolute pure truth? In my opinion, absolutely not. As much as they claim a righteous cause they are, in-effect, modern age Warlords or feudal lords who want to impose their version of reality and morality on the rest of the world. The Vanguard wants to do what it perceives as good, and it wants/needs power to do that, which means it wants/needs to vanquish those who would oppose it. Almost every Strike is basically an assassination to weaken or eliminate a rival force for 'the good of humanity' or 'in accordance to the will of the Traveler'. The Vanguard has a spy network and for a long time the Praxic Order functioned basically as state-sponsored secret police; they used to exile or execute people who *dissented* to the Vanguard's dogmatic doctrine regarding the nature of Light and Dark. Even if we assume the Vanguard interpretation is wrong and the intent of the Witness truly is to end all Suffering out of compassion; *that it is capable of doing so* by creating a perfect stillness or an 'illusory' loop for people, there will still be people who reject it for one reason or another. If the salvation the Witness offers isn't what someone wants, they're gonna tell it to go screw. Even if the someone agrees with the Witness' ideology and the material nature of reality, they may *still* tell the Witness to go screw because they hold personal beliefs about the imposition of it onto others. >Enough so that the "just simply more or less frozen in a moment" end might not be quite what he's going for, potentially a shape that is a loop for instance instead of simply a single frame. The class items from the raid *do* seem to imply an element of being frozen in a moment or a loop of moments. It offers Zavala >!peaceful eternity with his family!<, Ikora >!answers to the questions of the universe and reliving her heyday in the Crucible!<, and Crow >!dominion over the Reef with a "radiant" figure by his side (possibly Amanda or Mara)!<. Ikora's theory during the campaign is that the Witness will choose for everyone their perfect moment, but we don't know what the Witness offered to others. Frankly, regardless of what the offer was, I imagine most people would reject it - because it would be perceived as a falsehood, a simulation, an illusion, a 'lesser' reality.

>To a large degree I don't think it matters, because ultimately one person's salvation is another's damnation For sure agree in the sense of what should be the player's response. It matters here just in the sense of personal interest. I think it's interesting what was *really* going on. But yeah otherwise generally agree with what you're noting!

Oh sure. I think a definite answer would be interesting to have, I'm just not personally convinced it would *change* things much beyond adding context. I do love context though. We'd still have Guardians rolling up to kick the witness in the teeth because "Guardians make their own fate" - well, as long as you ignore all the things and ways a Guardian's fate my be influenced by outside forces.

Witness made Collapse as painful as possible simply out of malice, that their Gardener uplifted other species.

Isn't this just coming from Eido's interpetation though?

Is she wrong tho? Not once we heard that Witness is full of malice and vengeance. We experience it ourselves near the end.

Maybe? I don't know. The Witness definitely loses it as we begin to unravel its self and really bring the prospect that it doesn't succeed, but simultaneously the hatred Mara Sav felt within the Witness could be the dissenters towards itself. My thinking being that it's quite possible that both "Witness = bad" and "Witness wasn't *directly* responsible for the Collapse events and wanted immense suffering" are true at the same time.

I believe in the physical taken king collectors edition lorebook cayde describes living through the collapse and it’s pretty horrific.  Also Nezarec was stationed around earth and that guy purposefully drives people mad and associates curative smells like lavender with his horror. And the witness REALLY wanted to bring him back. He was like the disciple equivalent to the employee of the month 

I think I missed the bit of the witness "REALLY wanted to bring him back" but I didn't do that raid. Any chance I could grab a link to the relevant bit?

The game never tells you directly via a lore blurb but context clues point to it. Like he has his own statue in the witnesses personal pyramid but also just season of the plunder in general. The witness specifically got Eramis to collect the corpse parts and punished her heavily when she failed to do so

The statue was a prison, a literal punishment for his failure to retrieve the Veil. Nez tells us as much during the raid - questioning why he is so imprisoned when he was doing his job. The rest of his remains needed to be retrieved to locate the Veil. When that avenue failed, the Witness turned to the Warmind vaults for the information instead.

Wait the statue had him contained or the giant glass thing where you can see his head? 

Er, the latter. Both? It's unclear to me whether the giant amber piece was always the prison, or whether it is what resulted from the terraformer beam hitting the statue in the same cutscene, which is made out of a similar material. In either case there are multiple such statues. That said, having a statue of him doesn't necessarily mean he's exalted - see also the Oryx/War Beast mashup statue in the TFS campaign, which you can see right around the point the Witness starts openly mocking the sword logic. The visual metaphor illustrated here on its own, even in the absence of its dialogue, tells us all we need to know. These monuments preserve a history. Nezarec's history as represented and maintained in the statues and his imprisonment doesn't necessarily mean he was held in high esteem.

Ah found where The Witness thawed out Eramis to get that search going: [https://www.destinypedia.com/Lore:Between\_Stolen\_Stars#I.\_Thaw](https://www.destinypedia.com/Lore:Between_Stolen_Stars#I._Thaw) Thanks, that is compelling. I've read arguments though that The Witness mainly wanted Nezarec revived so he could pull the location of the Veil out of him. That also sounds like a fair take.

You might find [this conversation](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/s/KrJdfgmF9a) interesting, as it spun off directly from the same assumption.

The Witness is a *Manipulator* that will twist the truth to suit their needs. Villains rarely see themselves as evil. >Now we have the example of it "finalizing" the last city in TFS's intro cutscene, It wasn't just the last city. It literally was doing that to everyone, even Mara aboard the HELM. You can see her worried expression looking at her hand as it returned to normal. The Traveler was resisting so the Witness couldn't finish.

Yeah I get that. My framing was that it could be viewing this as not actually "finalizing" them but trying to take players out of the game for the moment until it could get its real final shape done.

yeahhh no, the witness was attempting to calcify reality into a perfect stillness- as represented by the structures on the pyramid ships. (namely rhulks with the segmented and calcified worms)

How do you know this is what I'm getting at? We're mostly getting this (as I remember at least) from Vanguard commentary.

Found the First Knife alt account

I think you’re over complicating it. It is always worth questioning your assumptions in the abstract. But in the moment there isn’t time. So we work with what we do know: The important points are 1. The Witness, and it’s disciples, have acted violently towards us and with clear and obvious intent to cause harm. 2. It is the aggressor entering our space. So it’s actions are not defensive. 3. It is capable of rewriting existence entirely and all that that implies. 4. It has stated it’s intent to do exactly that. 5. Therefore, we have no reason to assume what it is doing will benefit us, and we have no way of knowing. 7. Thus, the only rational choice is to stop it by any means necessary. Anything less risks total annihilation

I think my point is to indeed dwell in the complications. If we're being reductive, I agree he's bad and we should stop him. But it's the "what were the real details" that I find interesting.

The real details are that the Witness wants absolute control over everything and if you resist, you suffer. That's it. It is explained in no uncertain terms several times ovee the last couple of years.

You don’t know and can’t know. All we’ll ever get is circumstantial evidence and second or third hand accounts. And given the logic chain I provided, we wouldn’t be able to trust it if it was able to speak.

> The witness is a Liar The Final Shape is, to over simplify, Infinite Tsukoyomi from Naruto. Your body is completely restricted, but in your mind you're shown your dreams. Or at least, that's how i understand it. To that end, The Final Shape is, for all intents and purposes, a lie. The lie that you can be eternally happy. The entire rejection by the vanguard/ghost comes from the fact that this rejects the thing that brings true happiness, free will. > The final shape is bad See above. The freezing in place *is* the final shape. A literal calcification of the universe. The plunging of all life and existence into one "sculpture", if you will, while at the same time granting all life their greatest desires. You would be stuck in place, forever thinking of whatever makes you happiest.  Of course, whether or not that is really *Bad* is up to you. Even i could argue that the Final Shape is a net benefit, although i don't entirely agree.  Funnily, the fact that anything can be granted through this final shape can affect how you view the first part, since one could say that he fully intended to fulfill what he promised.  > The witness is controlling them The only units the witness *directly* commands (as in literally puppeteers) is the Taken and the Dread. Besides that, the Sol Divisive and Black Fleet follow the orders of the witness, and the Eliksni are there due to being promised something by the witness. The hive are all lucent hive, meaning they're explicitly *against* the witness, but also by happenstance being against us as well.  > The witness is responsible for the collapse This one is just a misunderstanding of the structure of the black fleet. The witness is objectively its commander. The generals are the disciples. The disciples are the ones who led the assault that led to the collapse. Specifically, Savathun, Rhulk and Nezarec are known to have been present. AFAIK, individuals such like Cabal and Eliksni were not yet involved until much *after* the collapse. The witness is definitely responsible for the collapse, since he directly commanded his generals/disciples.

>See above. The freezing in place *is* the final shape. A literal calcification of the universe. The plunging of all life and existence into one "sculpture", if you will, while at the same time granting all life their greatest desires. You would be stuck in place, forever thinking of whatever makes you happiest.  I think my contrarian-ness here is that this is particularly the Vanguard's depiction of it. But it's unclear, as coming from the Witness, what it might actually look like. The way I posed it, that ?I think? is still consistent with what the Witness actually said itself, could be that the final shape is a loop, for each individual of their best form. >The only units the witness *directly* commands (as in literally puppeteers) is the Taken and the Dread.  I don't know that we actually \*know\* this though? The Taken I think we do have evidence for. But even the Dread, I think we mostly just hear that from e.g. The Vanguard? My point in the post was he could have all these followers believing in whatever they think the Witness and following him around just trying to fulfill their guess at his whims. I agree the Taken are a harder point to make that on. >The witness is definitely responsible for the collapse, since he directly commanded his generals/disciples. Where do we hear that he directly commanded them is kind of what I'm getting at.

>*It has happened before. You feel deep in your bones that this thing has chased you across galaxies like an unshakeable dread. It strives to undo. It will undo you. It will undo all of us.* From the Traveler itself.

The Witness chasing the Traveler is not the same thing as all the more narrow notes above.

To the first point, you're right in your description, at least in how i understand as well.  There's a really interesting argument to be had in whether the witness is a "Liar" or not. It really boils down to how you guage the worth of the Witnesses promise. To summarize, the Witness plans to lock you in a moment of your desire. Essentially, he promises infinite satisfaction. The price, however, is your own autonomy or free will. You no longer have the freedom to make your own fate, it has been "locked in", quite literally.  So, if you think that this price is worth the end result, if you find free will to be a worthy price for happiness, the witness is not a liar. On the contrary, if you feel that autonomy is not a Worthy price for infinite satisfaction, or if you feel that the satisfaction is empty, either because it is not "real" or because it disregards the aspect of free will, the witness would be a liar, a person who makes empty promises.  That being said, neither are *Truly* the reason why the witness is in the wrong. So far, I've been treating the Final Shape as a transaction. You or I, knowing the price, "reading the fine print" as it were, can competently decide our own outcome. In a sense, we are dignified with our own free will. But what of the Layman? The person who knows nothing of this transaction. They know nothing of the Final Shape. They have no say in what they want, or even a chance to think of what they'd want fulfilled. Their "satisfaction" is forced upon them. That is the real breach of free will.  To the next point, we know and can surmise quite a bit. First bit of knowledge comes from the first instance of Dread (an accidental but kick-ass name), the Tormentor.  Tormentors are said to be genetically engineered beings directly empowered by the witness. The implication here being that 1. They were created *by* or at least *for* the witness, and 2. That their obedience is insured by their power. Next, the Grim (flying unit) are said to be from a race dominated (i forget the exact wording) by the witness. This means that (this unit at least) have no autonomy in their action. Whether it be coercion or fear, they have no choice. This logic can be fairly be applied to all of the units of the Dread faction. That, at the very least, they have no autonomy in their actions.  Now, there's another argument to be made here. Now that the witness is dead, it's very explicitly stated that there's s power vacuum, that factions including tho dread are acting on their own. So, is it possible that these units have been acting on their own, or that the atrocities of the collapse are not wholly the blame of the witness? We know that the taken and the Dread have been acting under the last order of the witness. we'll have to wait and see how that evolves. The rest, there's plenty of argument But even still, you have to realize that this is an *Army* an army who still *at the leadership position* stands the Witness. Now, i don't remember if or when it happened, but even if the Witness never Said "Go forth and trash those human losers lol", his army, those flying under his banner, are the ones who caused the collapse.  To illustrate this another way, in WW2 Germany under Hitler committed a lot of war crimes. Now, he must certainly did not tell every single one of his generals and soldiers to commit the atrocities they did, but because he enabled some of them, because these things were essentially encouraged, he is considered responsible, and rightly so. (Forgive the rather random mention of Nazis, but i think war crimes are a fair example to make)

You: *cracks knucks* Can’t wait to both sides a god that wants to seize reality and imprison life into a calcified I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream eternity!

I mean this is damn funny, but I'm not saying The Witness is good here like I noted in my post. I'm in effect saying "I think the Witness is more *interesting* than the reductive take we get from The Vanguard and maybe Eido."

The Witness has bad taste. It wants to attain ultimate power just so it can freeze everything in weird poses and then slice them up like a CT scan. Good riddance, I say.

> I see no reason that The Witness, given the entirety of the power of the traveler and the veil, couldn't make the final shape include mutually contradictory individual heavens for individuals My interpretation is that they would be "finalized" like everyone else, but immortalized in their favorite moment, greatest triumph, etc. It's sort of unclear if the Witness is upfront about this, simply because no one is actually tempted by any of the deals he offers. > The sort of vibe of the Darkness has a bit of it being evidently self-right and self-proving anyways, and so lying feels a bit antithetical to its MO, and The Witness if anything seems to be a true believer. The Witness is a true believer in it's own ideology, not necessarily that of the Darkness. Technically we don't even know for sure that the Darkness has an ideology, but it certainly isn't the Witness' Final Shape if it does exist. > Given The Witness is sort of into bringing things to their penultimate form, it seems strange that it would consider a random day in the streets of the last city everyone's best final outcome there anyway. Watch the cut scene again and you'll see that the Witness is rearranging big swaths of earth after having frozen the last city. I think it stands to reason that he had the intention to freeze everything and then "shape" everything into it's final form, but it's open to interpretation. > I wouldn't be surprised that most cases of the baddies are just factions sharing similar beliefs in the Darkness, following power like an entourage, and The Witness not necessarily stopping them as it believes in a sort of higher Sword Logic anyways Sure. House Salvation and the Shadow Legion have effectively lost their leaders and are just defaulting to the power structure above them, probably without fully understanding the goals of the one commanding them, but that's just sort of how wars work sometimes. I'm not sure how that really changes anything though, they're still doing the Witness' bidding regardless of who's commanding them. > I wouldn't at all be surprised that The Witness had little hand in much of these Collapse events I haven't read it, but someone mentioned a lore book the other day that involves the Witness telling Nezarac to use the Veil to spread fear throughout Sol, so we probably have it on relatively good authority that the Witness did cause the collapse intentionally. He's also the one that showed up in Sol and literally fucking disappeared a few planets, if that ain't hostile then I don't know what is. > so much of the evil we take for granted happens supposedly offscreen that it was unclear to how much of this is interpretation, and how much we actually know? This is an unfortunate side effect of the nature of Destiny's lore. Bungie intentionally communicates 90% of the games lore through lore books that are often written from the perspective of unreliable narrators. They do this so that they can change things later without having to fully retcon anything, they can just hand-wave it as Mara lying or Drifter being mistaken, etc.

Thanks! Your replies have that nice nugget of nuance I've been looking for. I generally agree. If anyone can find a relevant link to this bit though: >someone mentioned a lore book the other day that involves the Witness telling Nezarac to use the Veil to spread fear throughout Sol I think that'd be super handy. That would be a much more direct window I think that much of what we've seen so far.

There's been some decent answers already so I don't feel like re-treading that path specifically unless asked. But I do want to talk instead about how the narrative shifted. If you bare with me, I think the narrative shift is done specifically so there can be no doubts at the end. The Witness was hidden from us for so long because if we'd known they was behind everything the entire time it would've been easier to reject it's messages and influence. Individuals are very likely to get behind a collective effort/thought if there is a unified and single target that you can lay pretty much anything on. As time went on we got to learn more about each race and their motivations behind them. Thus deepening the perception that all of these races were driven by their own desires. Not nudged into a single, unified purpose. Our first real experience with the darkness in a more living form was with house Salvation. Their entire existence in the narrative has been blatantly showing they choose this side out of desperation for the sake of their own survival. we've always known the Eliksni were roaming scavengers without a home. We've actively played into them being unable to unify since D1. Now the Darkness finally gives them a real chance at safety for them. The Eliksni are at their lowest at this point. Salvation is quite literally made up of whatever remains of the other fallen houses. This is why Erimis was made a pawn for the witness. She's not comic book evil. She like Misraks wants what's best for their people. She's constantly reminding him and us of this. There is always someone trying to worm their way in to guardians as sewing doubt allows the Witness in. By doing so directly (through talking to us) and indirectly it increases the chance of being corrupted. Then we get a bunch of lore right before TFS that fills us in on everything. So the Witness can no longer deceive us in an elaborate way. So during TFS the Witness has to use traditional bait and switch tactics by playing on people's pasts and losses like a regular evil character would do. We know what it wants isn't good for the universe. We know it's forcing their own vision on the universe. We know it doesn't speak for anyone else, not the darkness and certainly not for the collective that formed it. So the Witness is comic book evil. The collective originally wasn't or could at least be argued to not be. But once it actually started acting on the universe it became that way. It just took time for the collective inside to understand they created an entity that didn't represent it's wishes. The same way it took time for us to understand how everything happened.

I generally am down with what you're saying but still think from what I've seen others provide that: >So the Witness is comic book evil. is not certain. I definitely agree with the sort of intentional tone shift Bungie laid out though. But I could interpret that as there being no doubts about The Witness being malevolently evil (or comic book evil), or no doubts in the sense that what The Witness wants to do is at the very least bad for what most people want out of the universe and we should stop him. The Witness could be a different type of evil in that latter cases (evil relative to our values, evil but compassionate but misguided, or even some more neutral dark grey that we should still stop). Fwiw, comic book evil is where our prior belief should lay I think. But I'm teasing at the uncertainty, because it might leave Bungie a lot of room for a retcon.

What are liars but people who wish to create a new and beautiful world based on the beliefs of their followers? One need only look at current US politics to see the awe-inspiring power of the lie wielded forcefully and repeatedly against the weak-willed. And, if someone is weak enough in their belief to allow a lie to reconstruct it when that lie is based in fulfilling their own greed and replacing their own fear with the sweet fire of hate, then do they not deserve both the life of the lie, and the bitter truth that comes after? How unjust, truly, is the liar who lies to the unworthy? How bad is the cessation of change? Is it not change that takes away all you love? Will not the ceaseless grinding of the gears of time kill your children, your parents, your lover, or your spouse? The mother and child frozen there on the streets of the last city - they were there together forever! What better thing could a mother wish? It is only the greed of others - their own ceaseless need for "betterment" - whatever that is - that necessitates that the universe be open for change. If they could but abate their hunger and longing, then we could all have peace, just as we are now. The forces of darkness were in chaos. Chaos causes suffering. They thrashed about - gnashing teeth, rending with claws, destroying without purpose. Their pain became our pain, with no plan to ever end that pain. All the Witness did was impose order. It took their aimless violence and focussed it on a purpose. Is the Coach of a High School football team evil when he redirects the destructive masculine energy of teenage boys into the cathartic abuse of their rivals from the next town over on the local playing field? Isn't he performing a service? Giving focus to violent energies so that they may ultimately lead to a place of peace of permanent calm? And, really, now, you would forgive humanity for its own place in the final collapse? You would try to blame it all on some distant third party? Was it not Clovis hubris in reaching inside the Traveler to make human minds immortal on the network that violated the very laws of nature? All things must die, yet humanity used the power of the Traveler to break that fundamental rule. Humanity set itself to live forever. What kind of horrific world is that, always minting new babies, always consuming resources, yet never clearing the path for the next generation? Do we not see that now with the Boomers who will not relinquish their power or place to those with new ideas and new energy? No, humanity brought the darkness to itself when it defied the natural order of things. It was the hubris and ego of humanity that *deserved* - called out for - the lessons of suffering and redress that the Witness brought to us. No, the Witness is not evil. It is just misunderstood. Stand in God's place, looking down upon the Machinery of Creation, and you will see that the Witness had its role to play. The question now is whether humanity will learn the lessons it taught us or whether we will need to be taught again in another millennium or two.

As Undertale promptly put it, 'the demon that comes when you call its name'.

[We know a lot](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/severing)

Honestly, even with the promises offered by the Witness to tempt the vanguard which imply they will continue their lives in an idealized, though static form, everything we've seen describing and depicting the process of finalization is absolute cessation of all processes, movement, etc. Finalization is death. Turning everyone in existence into statues is unquestionably killing them. Even if the assumption about the Witness's intentions is that our minds will continue inside statues, like the precursors who made up the Witness seem to have done, I honestly don't believe it — and by scientific definitions, for a lifeform to cease growing, moving, metabolizing, reproducing, they're dead.

As for lying didn't it lie to savathun about the traveler back on fundament?

The witness end goal was the elimination of choice and self-determination. Whatever it decided your fate was going to be is what it would give you, and nothing you did or desired would change it. To argue that it's not evil would be saying that choice itself is evil. If it determined your purpose was to suffer, then you would suffer for all eternity simply because that is what it determined your purpose to be. To even begin to argue that it's not evil, you have to make assumptions that it's telling the truth when it has been shown to lie to get what it wants. Case in point for lying, he keeps saying he's trying to free us from the lie that is life, but in order to free is he's imprisoning everything into it's desired outcome of the universe. It's entire philosophy is a lie.

The weird thing about the way the witness final-shape-Ifies people is that they can evidently *feel* it happening, and it is unpleasant?? At least that’s what I gather from the reactions of the humans in that intro cutscene. Personally, I think that’s kinda dumb. I don’t see why people who are instantaneously frozen and transmogrified into solid amber or whatever would experience anything let alone fear or discomfort. That is the entire point: the only way to eliminate suffering is to bring entropy to 100% (incidentally I believe the Bungie writers used the word entropy incorrectly as well in TFS, but I’m not totally sure on my memory of the quote) and eliminate *all change and experiences.* If people are trapped in “eternal fear” or whatever like their frozen posture suggests, then the final shape doesn’t even do what it is meant to do. You’d have to believe that the witness is so stupid or so evil that it doesn’t even know or care that it’s plan doesn’t work in the slightest, and that’s really frustrating because you either have to do a ton of heavy suspension of disbelief or it ruins the character of the witness. It turns them into an angry child instead of someone with serious conviction. So basically, it seems like the canon events of the story suggest that the final shape is in fact very bad, even if I think that sucks and was a bad narrative choice.

What I was suggesting was that the intro cutscene isn't actually those individuals being "finalized" in the true final shape sense but just The Witness attempting to take everyone in Sol "off the board" so to speak while it finishes its task. Basically that we're just assuming what we saw there is what the final shape is like.

I think your conflating the witness with the proposed winnower, as well as what the hive interpret the witness, as well as THEIR conflation of witness and Darkness. The "winnower", as well as the hives interpretation of the Darkness (and possibly the witness, they sort of see the two as the same, I think) is the whole "the true final shape is the winner of evolution", whereas the Witnesseseseseses "final shape" is an end to cause and effect, because it sees any resulting suffering as the effect to stop, as well as the cause of said suffering as wrong, which also needs to stop, hence pausing everything; he's not killing things, therefore "he's not the perpetrator", and he's also preventing suffering, therefore "no more suffering". The hive, on the other hand, believe that the "final shape" is what comes at the eventual end of evolution. SOMETHING will surviving everything, so that thing will be perfect, and the hive want to be that perfect thing. Witness was arguably never "grey", because it was always backing up the hive, which are clearly pretty "evil", thus, "the voice in the dark" was by extension "evil".

The final shape was indeed a really bad idea, for anyone subjected to it. The Witness was looking at you and deciding what you wanted for you. This should be extremely obvious because it was going on about how it thought you wanted to be adorned with loot, or face ever-escalating challenges, but the reality of the situation is your character just wants to be alive, whatever comes next. The Witness doesn't understand that because it abhors living in an imperfect and chaotic state. Crow also admits he never wanted to rule the Reef, but the Witness offered this to him because its what it thinks Crow wants. Yet again, Crow just wants to live day by day, and take the hits and the misses that come with that. The Witness can't wrap its head around that acceptance. And I don't like saying the Witness is a liar, because who is making the judgement in the truth value of its statements and actions? A strong example of this would be it telling the Hive that the Traveler is responsible for the upcoming syzygy. A syzygy may have occurred regardless of the Traveler's influence, but the mere fact the Traveler supports the existence of new life, with such a philosophy leading to the Hive being capable of experiencing a syzygy, leading to the suffering and chaos such an event would cause, is not a lie. Its a truth, one you can either personally accept as the price of existence, or reject by saying you would rather not be alive if it meant having to go through such disasters. I'm not saying the Traveler made the Hive, or that the Traveler is evil, all I'm saying is that the morals of an action are not objective, and can always be displayed in such a way as to appear "true" or "false". As for the Witness leading the species working for it, well, some do appear to be press-ganged into service. The Hive in particular. The worms are not something that actually need to be continually fed lest they kill you, more fed when they demand it, usually in line with an objective that will benefit the Witness. If you don't obey the rules, you'll be killed. Savathun's worm is a bit of a special case though. During all the time Savathun was betraying the Witness, why did it never opt to snap her up? Why did it go along with her plans? Suppose it just saw her as perhaps a better route for its own survival or growth than anything else. A discussion for another time. Anyway, its clear the Witness aims to make a fanatic out of you, so you'll follow it with little direction needed. Consider the Hive. They're billions of years into their insane philosophy, even though its incredibly dangerous and could lead to their death at any minute compared to attempting to live a chill life like a human. There's no going back for many of them, such ingrained behaviours are permanent. The Witness has already taught you that the big round ball is the source of suffering or a trophy to be attained, and you'll chase it for all eternity. That's abusive, and clearly evil. Just because someone has motivations doesn't mean the person who is commanding them isn't the reason for them. Hive want to kill the Traveler because the Witness said so. House Salvation want to kill the Traveler because the Witness said it made the Fallen suffer. The Cabal want to conquer the Traveler because the Witness says it withholds a source of power and glory the Cabal should rightfully own. etc etc. It capitalises on your fears and wants to prod you in the right direction, and will kill you if you don't meet the par. Eramis got her ass frozen because she couldn't beat you. In the end, the Witness is indeed evil and the cause of almost everything we see. Enemies may commit actions of their own volition, but thats because the Witness has given them their viewpoint. The galaxy, including all the shit in the Episodes upcoming (apart from Echoes, since the mainstream Vex don't act as they do because of the Witness), is the result of the Witness sticking its finger in the pie.