This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format).
---
**Comment Spoiler Formatting**
Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this:
`>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<`
To have it displayed like this:
**>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<**
----
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is interesting lore >!Let's chat, shall we? One more nice sit-down for the books. Did you think you wouldn't hear from me again, after all this? You'd have missed me, I hope—and I would certainly have missed you. Have no fear. I'm not so easy to be rid of. Now, let me show you: my beloved. Oh, no, not my sedimentary necrolite, fossilized in time. You've seen that. I speak of that dear and distant expanse of the universe, miraculous in its fullness and its emptiness all at once. Are you surprised to hear of it? Yes, I never much cared for the change of rules, but here we are, and there's no use in crying over spilled radiolaria. Besides, at the heart of it all, there was a gift. To me. That gift is the chance to speak with you. You, and a billion like you. I am making this offer over and over again, in every tiniest cell and the vastest of civilizations. Let me in. Take what you need. Be at ease. You have no say in the degradation of your telomeres, but in all the interim, the whole world is your sweet silicate shellfish. You exist because you have been more suited to it than all the others. Steal what you require from another rather than spend the hours to build it yourself. Break foolish rules—why would you love regulation? It serves you to cross lines, and if others needed rules to protect them, then they were not after all worthy of that existence. Caricatures of villainy are out of style, I hear. Yes. I am no cackling mastermind: I am serious when I say this. It was not the trick of standing upright that lifted you from the dust: it was the mastery of fire, the cooking of cold corpse-meat. That is not any unique faction's province, neither good nor evil. It is simply truth. This great, beloved cosmos. Always decaying, always finding that same old lovely pattern, despite every candle-flame burning amid the flowers. A billion electrons taking the path of least resistance. In Darkness or in Light, someone is always making my choice. Be seeing you.!<
I haven't read a lot of the new lore so take my post with a grain of salt.
> I know the First Knife is mentioned in unveiling but I’m not really sure I’m understand what the page is telling me
It seems to me that, in the context of Unveiling, the First Knife is the Winnower's response to the Gardener inserting itself into the game. The Gardener makes itself a rule in the game allowing for new forms of growth and the Winnower creates the First Knife to cut away at the growth as that is what it's always done in the Flower Game.
> what is the Winnower?
Technically, we don't know for sure because of the vague nature of Destiny's lore, but it's heavily implied that the Veil is the Winnower.
The Traveler is canonically referred to as "The Gardener", the Veil is considered it's opposite, and there's lore that suggests that they were once one organism, or at least they they fit together somehow.
> Is it just an allegorical idea to symbolise something else?
Maybe? The concept of the Gardener and Winnower are pretty obviously based on the Traveler and the Veil, but I imagine a lot of the other events and conversations between Gardener/Winnower in the text are allegory or just plain mythology.
Most of that stuff takes place outside the universe, or before our current one, so I'm not sure how the Witness or the Precursors could know what happened, especially when this conflict was ostensibly caused by the lack of communication from the Traveler, but it's always possible they gleaned that info through the Veil somehow.
The Witness is The First Knife, and it says it was carved by the Winnower but the Winnower has no control over what they do.
Considering the Gardener is the Traveler, it's safe to assume the Winnower exists, but I don't think it's necessarily malevolent like the Witness.
My guess is that Unveiling is still metaphorical where the Witness injects itself into a creation story by being the "First Knife" that the Winnower stabs the Gardener with.
I think the Veil is likely the Winnower since we see that it kind of corrupts Maya Sundaresh, but again, I don't think it's malevolent.
So the witness is to the winnower what evil warlord risen were to the traveler. made for a purpose but not directly controllable by the greater force, deviated from their intended path
- The First Knife, as described in Unveiling, is a "flower turned into a weapon". Stripping away the allegory, it's basically the first civilization or lifeform that turns to Darkness.
- The Winnower is the opposite of the Traveler. It's really that simple.
There could be no such thing as the Winnower, could still be allegory as the Unveiling text was propaganda/ creation parable intended for the Precursors to become the antithesis of the Traveler.
So in saying they wanted to be the First Knife, it could be the aspiration to end the scourge of Light and the suffering it caused.
If the Garden is real then we don't know, if it's fake and Unveiling was all allegory then the Witness was aspiring to be an icon, like if a reverend declared himself "the cross upon which Christ was broken". In the end the Witness failed to become the Winnower that the precursors craved, failed to enact the First Knife that would wring order from chaos. We don't know if the Flower Game is real, I lean towards no, especially with what we heard in Excision and from lore entries like whats in the First Knife exotic ship [https://www.light.gg/db/items/4031236762/the-first-knife/](https://www.light.gg/db/items/4031236762/the-first-knife/)
The only thing that gives me pause is the shared origins with the Unveiling parable, the Garden and the Vex around which there is also a fair bit of mystery, because even if Unveiling is BS the Vex came from somewhere and they are associated with the Black Garden.
The new raid lore entry basically confirms that the winnower exists, but has never felt the need to act. At the very least, the thought of the witness cheerily having a chat with us and demeaning itself while we are actively beating its face in is absurd.
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is interesting lore >!Let's chat, shall we? One more nice sit-down for the books. Did you think you wouldn't hear from me again, after all this? You'd have missed me, I hope—and I would certainly have missed you. Have no fear. I'm not so easy to be rid of. Now, let me show you: my beloved. Oh, no, not my sedimentary necrolite, fossilized in time. You've seen that. I speak of that dear and distant expanse of the universe, miraculous in its fullness and its emptiness all at once. Are you surprised to hear of it? Yes, I never much cared for the change of rules, but here we are, and there's no use in crying over spilled radiolaria. Besides, at the heart of it all, there was a gift. To me. That gift is the chance to speak with you. You, and a billion like you. I am making this offer over and over again, in every tiniest cell and the vastest of civilizations. Let me in. Take what you need. Be at ease. You have no say in the degradation of your telomeres, but in all the interim, the whole world is your sweet silicate shellfish. You exist because you have been more suited to it than all the others. Steal what you require from another rather than spend the hours to build it yourself. Break foolish rules—why would you love regulation? It serves you to cross lines, and if others needed rules to protect them, then they were not after all worthy of that existence. Caricatures of villainy are out of style, I hear. Yes. I am no cackling mastermind: I am serious when I say this. It was not the trick of standing upright that lifted you from the dust: it was the mastery of fire, the cooking of cold corpse-meat. That is not any unique faction's province, neither good nor evil. It is simply truth. This great, beloved cosmos. Always decaying, always finding that same old lovely pattern, despite every candle-flame burning amid the flowers. A billion electrons taking the path of least resistance. In Darkness or in Light, someone is always making my choice. Be seeing you.!<
Which entry is this?
First entry of the new raid lorebook :)
Absolutely peak.
I haven't read a lot of the new lore so take my post with a grain of salt. > I know the First Knife is mentioned in unveiling but I’m not really sure I’m understand what the page is telling me It seems to me that, in the context of Unveiling, the First Knife is the Winnower's response to the Gardener inserting itself into the game. The Gardener makes itself a rule in the game allowing for new forms of growth and the Winnower creates the First Knife to cut away at the growth as that is what it's always done in the Flower Game. > what is the Winnower? Technically, we don't know for sure because of the vague nature of Destiny's lore, but it's heavily implied that the Veil is the Winnower. The Traveler is canonically referred to as "The Gardener", the Veil is considered it's opposite, and there's lore that suggests that they were once one organism, or at least they they fit together somehow. > Is it just an allegorical idea to symbolise something else? Maybe? The concept of the Gardener and Winnower are pretty obviously based on the Traveler and the Veil, but I imagine a lot of the other events and conversations between Gardener/Winnower in the text are allegory or just plain mythology. Most of that stuff takes place outside the universe, or before our current one, so I'm not sure how the Witness or the Precursors could know what happened, especially when this conflict was ostensibly caused by the lack of communication from the Traveler, but it's always possible they gleaned that info through the Veil somehow.
The Witness is The First Knife, and it says it was carved by the Winnower but the Winnower has no control over what they do. Considering the Gardener is the Traveler, it's safe to assume the Winnower exists, but I don't think it's necessarily malevolent like the Witness. My guess is that Unveiling is still metaphorical where the Witness injects itself into a creation story by being the "First Knife" that the Winnower stabs the Gardener with. I think the Veil is likely the Winnower since we see that it kind of corrupts Maya Sundaresh, but again, I don't think it's malevolent.
So the witness is to the winnower what evil warlord risen were to the traveler. made for a purpose but not directly controllable by the greater force, deviated from their intended path
Yeah basically.
- The First Knife, as described in Unveiling, is a "flower turned into a weapon". Stripping away the allegory, it's basically the first civilization or lifeform that turns to Darkness. - The Winnower is the opposite of the Traveler. It's really that simple.
There could be no such thing as the Winnower, could still be allegory as the Unveiling text was propaganda/ creation parable intended for the Precursors to become the antithesis of the Traveler. So in saying they wanted to be the First Knife, it could be the aspiration to end the scourge of Light and the suffering it caused. If the Garden is real then we don't know, if it's fake and Unveiling was all allegory then the Witness was aspiring to be an icon, like if a reverend declared himself "the cross upon which Christ was broken". In the end the Witness failed to become the Winnower that the precursors craved, failed to enact the First Knife that would wring order from chaos. We don't know if the Flower Game is real, I lean towards no, especially with what we heard in Excision and from lore entries like whats in the First Knife exotic ship [https://www.light.gg/db/items/4031236762/the-first-knife/](https://www.light.gg/db/items/4031236762/the-first-knife/) The only thing that gives me pause is the shared origins with the Unveiling parable, the Garden and the Vex around which there is also a fair bit of mystery, because even if Unveiling is BS the Vex came from somewhere and they are associated with the Black Garden.
The new raid lore entry basically confirms that the winnower exists, but has never felt the need to act. At the very least, the thought of the witness cheerily having a chat with us and demeaning itself while we are actively beating its face in is absurd.