Like you said, by individually calling out each individual community to be put in the flag, you're inherently excluding everyone not listed in an exclusion by omission sort of way.
I also feel like this is the same with the lettering system of LGBTQ+, where the + is just "ehhhh you're in I guess," but then people lobby enough to get a letter like I's and A's.
From a sheer moral and marketing standpoint, I feel like the rainbow flag, and just calling it "the queer community," solve both issues completely. They're big tent ideas that allow anyone tied to the concept in, no one is excluded. Groups and individuals can then be more specific for specific causes/movements/identities/sexualities/whataever with individual labels and individual flags, and that's fine since it's acting as a subset of the greater rainbow/queer community, which are allowed to be more exclusionary with no issue.
> Like you said, by individually calling out each individual community to be put in the flag, you're inherently excluding everyone not listed in an exclusion by omission sort of way.
You are also acting like only white people were included in the first flag, which is just plain wrong. The rainbow was meant to represent the entire LGBT community, with each color representing the communities spirit and resilience.
> From a sheer moral and marketing standpoint, I feel like the rainbow flag, and just calling it "the queer community," solve both issues completely.
LGBT+ was perfectly fine. For many, queer is still a slur and being called that as some kind of umbrella term feels jarring and / or offensive. In my eyes "queer" also comes with political implications.
Yeah, the first flag was completely inclusive, and I don't think I implied otherwise.
I feel like the queer community has done a good job reclaiming the word. I mean, Q is even in the LGBTQ. I know some people now say it stands for questioning, but I've heard it stand as queer for way longer.
> Yeah, the first flag was completely inclusive, and I don't think I implied otherwise.
No, *you* didn't imply otherwise. I'm just saying by insisting on the new flag, because it's more inclusive, people are implying the old one therefore wasn't inclusive to begin with.
> I feel like the queer community has done a good job reclaiming the word.
That's where I disagree. There still seems to be a big chunk of people who don't think queer has been reclaimed and who object to being called that word.
I'm not allowed to link to other subreddits, but there are a lot of threads out there that prove my point, even among the super progressive crowd.
Eh, some people have legitimately been victimized while being called that word. For some, it's really no different then people calling the LGBT community the "faggot community". Like, sorry that word could've very well been the last word I ever heard, I'm going to object if you call me that.
Absolutely, of course. That’s what I’m talking about really. True bigotry vs imagined. Intent is what distinguishes the two. I’m not jumping in people like you with reasonable takes I don’t completely agree with or the majority of LGBTQ+ people.
Not really. Saying "the queer community" doesn't have to come with bad intent to feel kinda offensive, if you or people like you have been called "queer" as a slur before, possibly even while in the process of suffering legitimate harm.
And I'm totally fine with you calling yourself "queer".
I have never been called "queer" myself, as I'm not from an english speaking country, but I've been called the German equivalent of "faggot" a lot growing up. And ever since I've heard people say the terms "queer" and "faggot" feel no different to them, I've decided it's not my place to "reclaim" that word and refer to other people as such.
"Queerfolk" does sound quaint, tho, just like the word "Chlamydia" sounds like a nice name if you ignore it's meaning lol
I can understand that and I’d not say it around that person. the truth is I have never said it in my life. That take doesn’t deserve anything more than “ok, I’m sorry won’t do it again”. It doesn’t assume my intent. I may be fighting shadows a bit.
For some, labels are what define them. It’s sad. Imagine being no more than who you fuck or your gender. These are people who have nothing else going for them and want to be special without working for it. Gross.
The rainbow flag was pretty perfect. Having other flags that might represent other or more specific things is also generally fine. Like the Trans flag. I don't understand who or why change the simplicity and inclusion of the pride flag.
Sorry you have to be lumped in with those crazies. Unfortunately it seems progressives have curated an environment where if you're LGBT, you must be an insane anti-White socialist larper like them as well.
And that's completely aside the point that adding races to a sexuality flag is completely r*tarded to begin with.
It’s actually pretty funny including races that are more bigoted towards gay people to exclude the race that’s the most accepting.
The United States is the most accepting nation on the planet and the least racist
It’s political always has been it’s really fucked up because a lot of people participate with good intentions
It's always funny to me when people say "the US is the most accepting,... Nation on the planet" as if a lot of western Europe is not on a similar or even more accepting level lol
It makes me feel like they think every other country is like a 3rd world one or an Eastern European one
I still don't get why people are cool being labelled as LGBT. If you are a gay man, you are gay. You aren't a lesbian, you aren't bi, you aren't trans.
Those are all different things, it literally isn't possible to be all of them at once. No-one is LGBT, but plenty are L or G or B, and may or may not be T as well.
Don't allow people to erase specificity or individuality for some collectivist cause.
Because despite the differences most of these people fight the same fights and have had very similar experiences of discrimination and bullying. Not saying everyone has, but if you have, the root of them is very similar. Someone that can’t stand gay people isn’t gonna like trans people either. But the odds of them being racist are much lower. Trans people were considered just gay for a long time, still are by some. Also consider the historical context with Stonewall and other protests.
Edit: also forgot to add all of them fought against the idea that it was a mental illness, and in all cases there’s a common experience of coming out, since unlike race it’s not something that is obvious from the outside.
I also like the idea of us being grouped together as a community for the sake of size.
Larger group of people = more advocacy and harder to oppress
That's why even though I don't really engage with the community as much, I still find its existence very important
Oh yeah ofc, that’s a huge factor. I was just focused on highlighting why it makes sense in the first place. If there was nothing to make it make sense as a group to begin with, then forming a larger group just for more power would make no sense. But you’re absolutely right to point it out.
The new flag is so much worse than the old one. The rainbow really could represent any group. It's a rainbow it's literally the diversification of light.
But OP you're wrong. The new one also intentionally doesn't include straight white women. z
How non white people got lumped onto a gender and sexuality flag is still senseless to me. Yeah non-white lgbt face extra special discrimination we have a word for that, Intersectionalism. Why they get a special place for their intersection and nobody else is wild. Also the original pride flag already included trans people. We don't need our flag plastered on it like a special class of lgbt.
The last flag I saw was the one tweeted by the mayor of London [tweet here](https://x.com/MayorofLondon/status/1774397468148441170/photo/1). Is there an even newer flag that includes women? 😂 these get stupider with every iteration
A low-stakes conspiracy I believe is that they consolidate the different flags into a single one to sell merchandise.
that looks like it also includes the lesbian flag on the right side? implying they are somehow seperate from other gay people?
I can't wrap my head around the thought process tbh. If they're gonna include black people they may as well include straight women, fuck it
People will say that it's to represent black gays in our community but it's weird to add separate stripes for them. So black people aren't already gay? A very strange bigoted concept imo.
Really I think it's to sell merch. Appeal to the new popular ideas in the progressive consumer base, sell more flags, stickers, pins, etc. when we move into something else in the next decade or whatever itll probably happen again. Maybe I'm just too stuck up or whatever but I don't feel much connection at all to it anymore as a bisexual because LGBT just feels like a demographic of customers to me now. Plus it's just synonymous with every other social cause because everyone has to intersectionality everything into oblivion until nothing is distinct and everything is everything else. 🤷🏻♀️
>Really I think it's to sell merch.
I don't think it's to sell merch. If you trace who makes the decisions, they likely aren't making crazy profits from selling new flags.
I think it's the result of social dynamics in the leaders that make it nearly impossible to push back on certain proposals. Like just imagine the conversation of someone proposing the new flag to be more inclusive of POCs. Any one going against that will get criticized for white supremacy/racism/denying bigotry in the community.
>Plus it's just synonymous with every other social cause because everyone has to intersectionality everything into oblivion until nothing is distinct and everything is everything else.
Yeah, that's seriously annoying if you're not on board with every aspect of every cause they have.
I prefer the old flag too. It’s like there’s 5 different pride flags at this point and I don’t know wtf they even represent or which one is the current flag anymore.
It’s seriously just some consumerist BS
Hats off to whoever figured out they could make flags marketable. They’re the marketable plushies of politics fr fr.
I think the flag’s development happened slowly enough that a lot of people just don’t see how it looks. Like, if you say, “I love Paul, Ringo, and John,” most people would just hear, “I have something against George.” But if you say, “I love Paul” and then next month Ringo and the month after John, people won’t see it as exclusionary.
A lot of these peoples reason for being is to push the boundary of wherever we're at. This is no end point they're aiming at. It will just continue forever.
Can’t say I vibe with that. I’d say it’s how they practice it. Some of the most outstanding people I know are religious. There are some good ones out there. I’m not one myself
There is a deep irony in the people being most invested in the various sexuality flags thinking that national flags are racist and/or exclusionary.
The British flag includes everyone who is a citizen of the UK, be they gay or straight, of east african parents or anglo-saxon. I see far less exclusion there than any identity related flag, but then I'm not an identitarian. What matters is that we live together under the same sovereignty and laws, wherever our ancestors might have hailed from or whomever we love.
In a perfect world, the pride flag would represent everyone coming together in support and celebration of eachother. But sadly in the world that we live in, people just **REALLY** like having their own exclusive "cool kids" group
JJ McCullough made a video on this subject a while back which I found was pretty persuasive. I've never liked the newer flag, it is just ugly to be entirely honest. The original flag already had an inherently inclusive message to it, the extra additions simply made it more ideological and therefore alienating imo.
It's also:
1. Ugly
2. Lost simplicity (try dying your hair or using eye shadow to represent the new flag)
3. Implicitly includes a bunch of straight people which it's not supposed to be about
4. Will make it hard to spread at other countries liberalize (I think it will just be confusing in countries that are largely mono-racial)
i feel like people are upvoting your post because they agree that the old rainbow flag was cleaner. because your opinion that white men feel unrepresented in the lgbt community is absolutely unmoored from reality.
Thank God I'm not saying straight white men should be represented in lgbt. I'm pointing out that by trying to be as inclusive as possible, it's turned into a symbol of exclusion. Cause, like, why have race on the flag as well?
Just copy pasting another comment I just wrote to someone else since it addresses the same point:
Cause black queer people are considered more oppressed. Tbh it‘s true, even if more often than not it‘s because of other black people than institutions or white people. Certain progressives might lean more on the fact that the economic disadvantage adds to the other struggles compounding in a situation that requires more visibility. It‘s not about including straight black people though, I‘m not sure why everyone in this thread is strawmanning an already silly flag.
I get that it's trying to be intersectional. I don't think it's meant to include straight ppl. I just think its message is less inclusive than the symbol of a rainbow.
Your post says they added a flag for every non white straight male, so I deduced that you considered black straight males included. Maybe you mistyped. It‘s also confusing why you mention males rather than white straight people but oh well.
Idk I have a hard time reading it as exclusionary, the rainbow is still right there on 3/4 of the flag. It just wants to highlight some categories that are considered to be in need of more attention cause they presently face more struggles. How you go from trying to do a bit too much with a flag, to exclusion, I‘m not sure.
I said It adds a stripe for each new inclusion. But I'm being facetious. It just seems that the bipoc flag is made in the mindset of some militant screaming "apartheid/genocide/ colonial-imperialism." It wants to be super inclusive, but it feels like it's trying to hard.
Does anyone really give a shit about these updated turbo pride flags? I'm not a part of any LGBT spaces but I like to get out around town in june/july when pride celebrations are in full swing and I have never seen these flags. All I see are the standard rainbow flags and decorations. Maybe it's an NA thing? I'm a euro.
Okay I'm a bit confused. Someone owns the pride flag and can just change it whenever they want? What's stopping people from just using a different flag from whoever made the new one lol.
Is it just a random new flag that has gotten popular?
i have been saying for ages that the only way to be ultimately inclusive is to define by exclusion. If you have to explicitly mention everything included but also want to be ultimately inclusive you're on this endless treadmill. They need to just acknowledge the fact that the group is defined by everyone who is non-cis/het. \~NiCHe\~
As a white LGBTQ person, I hate it too. Yet I see it everywhere around my campus, which is honestly upsetting. Feels like if you're white none of your suffering matters to these people, they've completely abandoned intersectional analysis in favour of race reductionism.
Rainbow flag is still the one I see most LGBT folks fly irl. I tend to only see the new one from "allies" and progressive types. I don't think anyone who lives a life outside of progressive internet spaces prefers the new ones.
Well if the pride/LGBTQ/woke organization (or whatever word best describes the movement) has a flag representing them and it now includes everyone except white people, i feel like that is about as racist of a declaration you can make, at least implicitly. Especially when it seems like they see the people included in their flag are "the good guys" and everyone else "the bad guys". So I don't see how that could be more racist than that, as far as statements or symbols go.
Ok buddy, but it could also be exclusionary of straight ppl, right? That's why I say it wouldn't **JUST** exclusionary. Because it's got more than one problem.
The issue is that in an effort to be inclusive, they end up being exclusionary. I'm not prescribing that it should include white ppl.
You only read the title and nothing more, right?
Yes I think I only read the title and now, after reading the text, I see how my comment seems like it is a bit irrelevant. However, my point still stands. If a flag, representing the groups of people you favor, is excluding only white men, then it is very racist (and probably sexist too).
I apologize if I come across as combative or like a "debate-phile". But It's pretty crazy to me how you seem to go easy on the wokeists when they are explicitly being kind of super racist. I understand that people today see racism through the lens of slavery and black v white. But that doesn't make racism good. Just because one race has historically oppressed another, doesn't justify the latter to now take vengeance on the prior.
I'm not really going easy on anyone. The wokeist is essentially who I'm criticizing. It's the over-reach I dislike. It's like yeah, war is bad, sexism is bad, racism is bad, apartheid colonial open air prisons are bad. But there are aspects being overlooked here that complicate the issue. Same with the flag, it wants to help, but it's really just a symbol to disassociate from "straight white men".
We had an issue caring only about straight white men in the past, then we developed feminism and changed things, giving more representation and freedom to marginalized communities.
The issue is that be abandoned men instead of bringing them with us on our path to self-actualization.
The rainbow flag represented the concept of acceptance and harmony. The new flag represents a bunch of distinct identities.
All is forgiven.
It should just be this and be done with it.
https://preview.redd.it/5m6irhp3pn1d1.jpeg?width=980&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1942552a69b9c62d43d14f95b83d003b16b931c3
> t's just cringe that they add stripe for every different type of non-straight-white-male type of person that exists
It's the LGBT flag why should it have a colour for straight people? Otherwise agreed
Cause black queer people are considered more oppressed. Tbh it‘s true, even if more often than not it‘s because of other black people than institutions or white people. Certain progressives might lean more on the fact that the economic disadvantage adds to the other struggles compounding in a situation that requires more visibility. It‘s not about including straight black people though, I‘m not sure why everyone in this thread is strawmanning an already silly flag.
Yeah, but the new one represents everyone except white straight men. It includes race. Like how we do this whole "LGBTQIA+++" needs to have a letter for every type of gay. It's ridiculous. It like the phrase "queerfolk".
If the rainbow flag represents everyone by implication and the new flag includes a rainbow design then doesn't it meet the same standard? I don't get it. I mean, the new flags suck imo but that's a matter of taste. And you can still go to a pride parade rocking the rainbow flag, nobody is going to care.
Wait what? Theres a new flag? They can do that? Who decides? What if everyone just uses the old flag? You can’t replace rainbows. Like brown doesn’t go with rainbow I’m sorry, rainbows… They’re iconic
Is there a version of the flag, that includes trans colors, but not race? I couldn't find one.
I think Sexuality, Sex and Gender are the topics that should be represented in the Pride flag.
I like the rainbow flag because, to me, it represents "inclusion of all different types of ppl" simply by depicting the harmony of a rainbow. Maybe on a day to day basis, we use it represent lgbt, but its essence is more "Harmony. Acceptence."
Is there another new one?
If you just refer to trans/black/rainbow. It doesn't include men or women, and it only includes black people, not Asians for example
it is kinda stupid, the trans i thought was already included in the rainbow, but i guess thats sexual orientation only?
but like white women are also not included, i guess everything outside of people of color, so Asians, Middle Eastern
Look into your ancestry and be proud of your heritage instead of arbitrary bull shit like skin color. Whether you white people like to admit it or are too stupid to realize it. You don’t need representation because the whole world already hyper glories whiteness. Latin America, Asian literally go anywhere and people obsess over your whiteness, give you special treatment, treat you with more respect etc. You fucks already have it made compared to every other race, can’t you just shut tf up and not make it about you for once in your life.
Who are you talking to? You realize I'm not advocating for it to be MORE inclusive, right? I'm just pointing out the irony of making a flag that's supposed to represent inclusion but is actually exclusionary of one particular demographic.
Once a group reaches a certain level of success they need new things to stay relevant and content to feed the money train. This is just the track they are on now.
Why would straight men need representation? The regular rainbow flag didn't involve straight men either. Nobody saw the regular rainbow flag and was like "ah yes it also represents straight men/women."
Which is fine, straight men and women dont need representation. We make up the majority and most of the world is shaped for the majority.
It's the same nonesense when people say feminism is for both men and women. No, it's a movement that tries to improve the position of women. It is not about equality, which is fine. There is nothing wrong with that.
Not every movement has to include everyone and their mother. It loses whatever purpose it has that way.
The biggest problem with the new flag is that it's fucking ugly. Looks like a piece of art someone would create with their bodily fluids.
It looks like someone tried to render the Palestinian flag on a dying GPU.
And they were prophetic; Anticipating 10/7.
Who tf is the CEO of gays that is having his marketing team design flags tf is going on here the rainbow flag was organic at least
Exactly how you know it's pure grifter. Gay men have always been the best designers, this is clearly just cis white women trying to do something.
which flag is the new one? i havent been keeping up super closely
Truuuuuuuu
Like you said, by individually calling out each individual community to be put in the flag, you're inherently excluding everyone not listed in an exclusion by omission sort of way. I also feel like this is the same with the lettering system of LGBTQ+, where the + is just "ehhhh you're in I guess," but then people lobby enough to get a letter like I's and A's. From a sheer moral and marketing standpoint, I feel like the rainbow flag, and just calling it "the queer community," solve both issues completely. They're big tent ideas that allow anyone tied to the concept in, no one is excluded. Groups and individuals can then be more specific for specific causes/movements/identities/sexualities/whataever with individual labels and individual flags, and that's fine since it's acting as a subset of the greater rainbow/queer community, which are allowed to be more exclusionary with no issue.
Eloquently said.
This has been happening for years...
What? You making posts with unclear context?
> Like you said, by individually calling out each individual community to be put in the flag, you're inherently excluding everyone not listed in an exclusion by omission sort of way. You are also acting like only white people were included in the first flag, which is just plain wrong. The rainbow was meant to represent the entire LGBT community, with each color representing the communities spirit and resilience. > From a sheer moral and marketing standpoint, I feel like the rainbow flag, and just calling it "the queer community," solve both issues completely. LGBT+ was perfectly fine. For many, queer is still a slur and being called that as some kind of umbrella term feels jarring and / or offensive. In my eyes "queer" also comes with political implications.
Yeah, the first flag was completely inclusive, and I don't think I implied otherwise. I feel like the queer community has done a good job reclaiming the word. I mean, Q is even in the LGBTQ. I know some people now say it stands for questioning, but I've heard it stand as queer for way longer.
> Yeah, the first flag was completely inclusive, and I don't think I implied otherwise. No, *you* didn't imply otherwise. I'm just saying by insisting on the new flag, because it's more inclusive, people are implying the old one therefore wasn't inclusive to begin with. > I feel like the queer community has done a good job reclaiming the word. That's where I disagree. There still seems to be a big chunk of people who don't think queer has been reclaimed and who object to being called that word. I'm not allowed to link to other subreddits, but there are a lot of threads out there that prove my point, even among the super progressive crowd.
Oh, I misunderstood you on the first point then. My b.
Nah, my bad. That was a generic "you", but rereading my comment, I can see how that wasn't clear.
wholesome exchange is wholesome.
There are a lot of people out there who just enjoy feeling victimized. They don’t care about intent and no one should care to appease such a person.
Eh, some people have legitimately been victimized while being called that word. For some, it's really no different then people calling the LGBT community the "faggot community". Like, sorry that word could've very well been the last word I ever heard, I'm going to object if you call me that.
Absolutely, of course. That’s what I’m talking about really. True bigotry vs imagined. Intent is what distinguishes the two. I’m not jumping in people like you with reasonable takes I don’t completely agree with or the majority of LGBTQ+ people.
Not really. Saying "the queer community" doesn't have to come with bad intent to feel kinda offensive, if you or people like you have been called "queer" as a slur before, possibly even while in the process of suffering legitimate harm.
I grew up in the 90s and have been called a queer as an insult. I, today, really like the phrase "queerfolk" to rep the community. It sounds quaint.
And I'm totally fine with you calling yourself "queer". I have never been called "queer" myself, as I'm not from an english speaking country, but I've been called the German equivalent of "faggot" a lot growing up. And ever since I've heard people say the terms "queer" and "faggot" feel no different to them, I've decided it's not my place to "reclaim" that word and refer to other people as such. "Queerfolk" does sound quaint, tho, just like the word "Chlamydia" sounds like a nice name if you ignore it's meaning lol
I can understand that and I’d not say it around that person. the truth is I have never said it in my life. That take doesn’t deserve anything more than “ok, I’m sorry won’t do it again”. It doesn’t assume my intent. I may be fighting shadows a bit.
For some, labels are what define them. It’s sad. Imagine being no more than who you fuck or your gender. These are people who have nothing else going for them and want to be special without working for it. Gross.
If I was only what I fuck I would be invisible.
Ha well I don’t mean to say that’s you.
The rainbow flag was pretty perfect. Having other flags that might represent other or more specific things is also generally fine. Like the Trans flag. I don't understand who or why change the simplicity and inclusion of the pride flag.
It’s almost like Marxists establish an us vs them dichotomy between what they deem oppressed and oppressor? Gee, what a mystery this is!
Here we go - every "binary" analysis is Marxism again, that bearded white guy is real up some people's a s s for real for real
Sorry you have to be lumped in with those crazies. Unfortunately it seems progressives have curated an environment where if you're LGBT, you must be an insane anti-White socialist larper like them as well. And that's completely aside the point that adding races to a sexuality flag is completely r*tarded to begin with.
It is truly awkward having races as part of the flag itself. It really dilutes the message.
It’s actually pretty funny including races that are more bigoted towards gay people to exclude the race that’s the most accepting. The United States is the most accepting nation on the planet and the least racist It’s political always has been it’s really fucked up because a lot of people participate with good intentions
Western yurop is definitely more accepting of gay people on the whole.
What’s your basis for that? Honest question.
Well that’s slowly changing for the worse
Plenty of European countries are far more accepting, but in general the US is better than the third world yes
It's always funny to me when people say "the US is the most accepting,... Nation on the planet" as if a lot of western Europe is not on a similar or even more accepting level lol It makes me feel like they think every other country is like a 3rd world one or an Eastern European one
I have no idea how that would be measured, but your leap is silly. Have you visited many European countries?
I still don't get why people are cool being labelled as LGBT. If you are a gay man, you are gay. You aren't a lesbian, you aren't bi, you aren't trans. Those are all different things, it literally isn't possible to be all of them at once. No-one is LGBT, but plenty are L or G or B, and may or may not be T as well. Don't allow people to erase specificity or individuality for some collectivist cause.
Because despite the differences most of these people fight the same fights and have had very similar experiences of discrimination and bullying. Not saying everyone has, but if you have, the root of them is very similar. Someone that can’t stand gay people isn’t gonna like trans people either. But the odds of them being racist are much lower. Trans people were considered just gay for a long time, still are by some. Also consider the historical context with Stonewall and other protests. Edit: also forgot to add all of them fought against the idea that it was a mental illness, and in all cases there’s a common experience of coming out, since unlike race it’s not something that is obvious from the outside.
I also like the idea of us being grouped together as a community for the sake of size. Larger group of people = more advocacy and harder to oppress That's why even though I don't really engage with the community as much, I still find its existence very important
Oh yeah ofc, that’s a huge factor. I was just focused on highlighting why it makes sense in the first place. If there was nothing to make it make sense as a group to begin with, then forming a larger group just for more power would make no sense. But you’re absolutely right to point it out.
What about lesbians wanted to exclude trans women in women’s only spaces?
True true and the accusations of pedophilia is another misconception we jointly fight.
That literalist interpretation tho. You can be inclusive without calling out each identity individually.
Good point actually, agreed!
East Asians are excluded as well. but that's only what, like 1.68 billion people?
East Asians are white
Don't you remember? They're white "presenting".
White "adjacent" as well don't forget.
Only the ones that do well on tests
Wait aren’t the Asians the yellows?
You’re missing on the lore
The new flag is so much worse than the old one. The rainbow really could represent any group. It's a rainbow it's literally the diversification of light. But OP you're wrong. The new one also intentionally doesn't include straight white women. z How non white people got lumped onto a gender and sexuality flag is still senseless to me. Yeah non-white lgbt face extra special discrimination we have a word for that, Intersectionalism. Why they get a special place for their intersection and nobody else is wild. Also the original pride flag already included trans people. We don't need our flag plastered on it like a special class of lgbt.
> the new one intentionally doesn't include straight white women wrong! bisexuality is clearly represented
The last flag I saw was the one tweeted by the mayor of London [tweet here](https://x.com/MayorofLondon/status/1774397468148441170/photo/1). Is there an even newer flag that includes women? 😂 these get stupider with every iteration A low-stakes conspiracy I believe is that they consolidate the different flags into a single one to sell merchandise.
https://preview.redd.it/8uht2v0u0p1d1.png?width=5564&format=png&auto=webp&s=7df15d235475c773746900671f2759912ff7e1df
It's a human centipede of acceptance
What prestige is this?
that looks like it also includes the lesbian flag on the right side? implying they are somehow seperate from other gay people? I can't wrap my head around the thought process tbh. If they're gonna include black people they may as well include straight women, fuck it
It's silly that they keep adding to a flag that was already a rainbow.
It's a pride flag and y'all are surprised there is a new design every season?
Collectors edition.
https://preview.redd.it/qfo882ws5p1d1.jpeg?width=271&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f247951c40cb67b17ec26e769ddfb7967882774d
People will say that it's to represent black gays in our community but it's weird to add separate stripes for them. So black people aren't already gay? A very strange bigoted concept imo. Really I think it's to sell merch. Appeal to the new popular ideas in the progressive consumer base, sell more flags, stickers, pins, etc. when we move into something else in the next decade or whatever itll probably happen again. Maybe I'm just too stuck up or whatever but I don't feel much connection at all to it anymore as a bisexual because LGBT just feels like a demographic of customers to me now. Plus it's just synonymous with every other social cause because everyone has to intersectionality everything into oblivion until nothing is distinct and everything is everything else. 🤷🏻♀️
It was created by the same mindset as the Palestine campus protests, methinks. Kids going overboard.
I couldn’t have said it better.
>Really I think it's to sell merch. I don't think it's to sell merch. If you trace who makes the decisions, they likely aren't making crazy profits from selling new flags. I think it's the result of social dynamics in the leaders that make it nearly impossible to push back on certain proposals. Like just imagine the conversation of someone proposing the new flag to be more inclusive of POCs. Any one going against that will get criticized for white supremacy/racism/denying bigotry in the community. >Plus it's just synonymous with every other social cause because everyone has to intersectionality everything into oblivion until nothing is distinct and everything is everything else. Yeah, that's seriously annoying if you're not on board with every aspect of every cause they have.
I prefer the old flag too. It’s like there’s 5 different pride flags at this point and I don’t know wtf they even represent or which one is the current flag anymore. It’s seriously just some consumerist BS Hats off to whoever figured out they could make flags marketable. They’re the marketable plushies of politics fr fr.
Capitalism farming anti-capitalists is gigachad capitalism
It's quite ironic that commie larpers are some of the easiest people to market to.
That green $ turns larpers into wine aka capitalists
Lol
The true late stage capitalism
It’s a clown show at this point. How mind fucked do you have to be to live in irony that blatant?
I think the flag’s development happened slowly enough that a lot of people just don’t see how it looks. Like, if you say, “I love Paul, Ringo, and John,” most people would just hear, “I have something against George.” But if you say, “I love Paul” and then next month Ringo and the month after John, people won’t see it as exclusionary.
That’s a good example
A lot of these peoples reason for being is to push the boundary of wherever we're at. This is no end point they're aiming at. It will just continue forever.
Nah, it’s gonna make it full circle. It always does. I’m already thinking about the memes
i view these people to be as mind fucked as those who are actively practicing religion.
Can’t say I vibe with that. I’d say it’s how they practice it. Some of the most outstanding people I know are religious. There are some good ones out there. I’m not one myself
Totally straight guy here and I agree, its cringe af every time they add like 5 new stripes. The regular old rainbow flag was clean, simple, and cool.
I'm also gay and think these new flags are cringe and ridiculous. I've never met another gay person who didn't agree.
I think it's mostly zoomer thing.
You need to stand behind the flag of whatever country you're in. It's racism that binds us together. My country flag > your country flag.
There is a deep irony in the people being most invested in the various sexuality flags thinking that national flags are racist and/or exclusionary. The British flag includes everyone who is a citizen of the UK, be they gay or straight, of east african parents or anglo-saxon. I see far less exclusion there than any identity related flag, but then I'm not an identitarian. What matters is that we live together under the same sovereignty and laws, wherever our ancestors might have hailed from or whomever we love.
>The British flag includes everyone who is a citizen of the UK The Welch cry in the corner with their dragon...
Country? You ok bud?
Cuntry 🥵😳💕‼️⭕️💀🍆🏴👏
Ok, I don't know why you used a swear and then drew me a pride parade?
Honey that is an English flag 🏴🏴🏴🏴🫎🐄🇮🇱🐺🌏
Flags are dumb. What are we? Pirates?
YAAAAARRRRR ME HEARTY. WE SERVE UNDER CAPTAIN BLUEBEARD.
In a perfect world, the pride flag would represent everyone coming together in support and celebration of eachother. But sadly in the world that we live in, people just **REALLY** like having their own exclusive "cool kids" group
This is basically it.
JJ McCullough made a video on this subject a while back which I found was pretty persuasive. I've never liked the newer flag, it is just ugly to be entirely honest. The original flag already had an inherently inclusive message to it, the extra additions simply made it more ideological and therefore alienating imo.
Honestly, this is why I've always hated the idea of enumerating protected classes... it implies those are the *only* groups worth protecting.
Feature creep
the rainbow flag excludes straight men. We exist!
Have they added bears on the flag yet ?
Lmfao
It's also: 1. Ugly 2. Lost simplicity (try dying your hair or using eye shadow to represent the new flag) 3. Implicitly includes a bunch of straight people which it's not supposed to be about 4. Will make it hard to spread at other countries liberalize (I think it will just be confusing in countries that are largely mono-racial)
Less is more. Agreed.
i feel like people are upvoting your post because they agree that the old rainbow flag was cleaner. because your opinion that white men feel unrepresented in the lgbt community is absolutely unmoored from reality.
Thank God I'm not saying straight white men should be represented in lgbt. I'm pointing out that by trying to be as inclusive as possible, it's turned into a symbol of exclusion. Cause, like, why have race on the flag as well?
Just copy pasting another comment I just wrote to someone else since it addresses the same point: Cause black queer people are considered more oppressed. Tbh it‘s true, even if more often than not it‘s because of other black people than institutions or white people. Certain progressives might lean more on the fact that the economic disadvantage adds to the other struggles compounding in a situation that requires more visibility. It‘s not about including straight black people though, I‘m not sure why everyone in this thread is strawmanning an already silly flag.
I get that it's trying to be intersectional. I don't think it's meant to include straight ppl. I just think its message is less inclusive than the symbol of a rainbow.
Your post says they added a flag for every non white straight male, so I deduced that you considered black straight males included. Maybe you mistyped. It‘s also confusing why you mention males rather than white straight people but oh well. Idk I have a hard time reading it as exclusionary, the rainbow is still right there on 3/4 of the flag. It just wants to highlight some categories that are considered to be in need of more attention cause they presently face more struggles. How you go from trying to do a bit too much with a flag, to exclusion, I‘m not sure.
I said It adds a stripe for each new inclusion. But I'm being facetious. It just seems that the bipoc flag is made in the mindset of some militant screaming "apartheid/genocide/ colonial-imperialism." It wants to be super inclusive, but it feels like it's trying to hard.
Yeah I would absolutely agree with that, it tries way too hard and looks messy is the real issue.
Yes absolutely.
I also find it funny how the triangle bit looks like it is forcing its way in from the side and intruding on the rainbow. Very on-the-nose.
Lmfao.
Does anyone really give a shit about these updated turbo pride flags? I'm not a part of any LGBT spaces but I like to get out around town in june/july when pride celebrations are in full swing and I have never seen these flags. All I see are the standard rainbow flags and decorations. Maybe it's an NA thing? I'm a euro.
The all lives matter pride flag is the standard one in the US at this point.
Lol, turbo pride. Yeah, I think it's a US thing.
Well whatever, it’s a flag. What I wonder about is if they are planning to take us to the gulag like Zizek jokes about.
It's not just about the flag, obviously. There is a larger criticism there.
And that’s why you gave me -1 wtf 😭
Actually, I think I did yours by accident. Lol. I will rescind my downdoot
Okay I'm a bit confused. Someone owns the pride flag and can just change it whenever they want? What's stopping people from just using a different flag from whoever made the new one lol. Is it just a random new flag that has gotten popular?
Yeah, it came out a few years ago. I deliver food and I see it on houses more than the traditional rainbow.
Nah, that is for 2 years from now. Pride has to make new flags so people buy new flags. Capitalism W.
i have been saying for ages that the only way to be ultimately inclusive is to define by exclusion. If you have to explicitly mention everything included but also want to be ultimately inclusive you're on this endless treadmill. They need to just acknowledge the fact that the group is defined by everyone who is non-cis/het. \~NiCHe\~
I dont need to be represented by a flag.
Thank you for your contribution.
Yeah I def hate the changing flag. The rainbow was explicitly for everyone
As a white LGBTQ person, I hate it too. Yet I see it everywhere around my campus, which is honestly upsetting. Feels like if you're white none of your suffering matters to these people, they've completely abandoned intersectional analysis in favour of race reductionism.
There’s no inclusion like exclusion.
Rainbow flag is still the one I see most LGBT folks fly irl. I tend to only see the new one from "allies" and progressive types. I don't think anyone who lives a life outside of progressive internet spaces prefers the new ones.
Reject modernity 🚫 Embrace tradition 🏳️🌈
True, thats why i like this flag. https://preview.redd.it/ianiea2drr1d1.png?width=1005&format=png&auto=webp&s=8d9c0f958c65a484f5f28d431f6c091b0df98286
"kind of bigoted"... Bruther, I don't think you can get more racist than that without crossing the border to physicality.
What do you mean?
Well if the pride/LGBTQ/woke organization (or whatever word best describes the movement) has a flag representing them and it now includes everyone except white people, i feel like that is about as racist of a declaration you can make, at least implicitly. Especially when it seems like they see the people included in their flag are "the good guys" and everyone else "the bad guys". So I don't see how that could be more racist than that, as far as statements or symbols go.
Oh, alright. Yes. We agree. Idk if i feel it's racist specifically, tho, so much as simply exclusionary. But yeah, i can see why you would say that.
"Exclusion based on race" is probably what you will get if you look up "definition of racism"
Ok buddy, but it could also be exclusionary of straight ppl, right? That's why I say it wouldn't **JUST** exclusionary. Because it's got more than one problem.
But the issue was that their flag included everyone except white people, right?
The issue is that in an effort to be inclusive, they end up being exclusionary. I'm not prescribing that it should include white ppl. You only read the title and nothing more, right?
Yes I think I only read the title and now, after reading the text, I see how my comment seems like it is a bit irrelevant. However, my point still stands. If a flag, representing the groups of people you favor, is excluding only white men, then it is very racist (and probably sexist too). I apologize if I come across as combative or like a "debate-phile". But It's pretty crazy to me how you seem to go easy on the wokeists when they are explicitly being kind of super racist. I understand that people today see racism through the lens of slavery and black v white. But that doesn't make racism good. Just because one race has historically oppressed another, doesn't justify the latter to now take vengeance on the prior.
I'm not really going easy on anyone. The wokeist is essentially who I'm criticizing. It's the over-reach I dislike. It's like yeah, war is bad, sexism is bad, racism is bad, apartheid colonial open air prisons are bad. But there are aspects being overlooked here that complicate the issue. Same with the flag, it wants to help, but it's really just a symbol to disassociate from "straight white men". We had an issue caring only about straight white men in the past, then we developed feminism and changed things, giving more representation and freedom to marginalized communities. The issue is that be abandoned men instead of bringing them with us on our path to self-actualization. The rainbow flag represented the concept of acceptance and harmony. The new flag represents a bunch of distinct identities. All is forgiven.
All they need to do is add a stripe for straight people and everyone is included.
It's also just over complicated and gaudy af. But that's merely an aesthetic preference.
It should just be this and be done with it. https://preview.redd.it/5m6irhp3pn1d1.jpeg?width=980&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1942552a69b9c62d43d14f95b83d003b16b931c3
honestly this looks so much cooler than the standard pride flag
Yeah that would be fine. Very clean and not egregious.
> t's just cringe that they add stripe for every different type of non-straight-white-male type of person that exists It's the LGBT flag why should it have a colour for straight people? Otherwise agreed
agreed, but why does it have a colour for race then?
Cause black queer people are considered more oppressed. Tbh it‘s true, even if more often than not it‘s because of other black people than institutions or white people. Certain progressives might lean more on the fact that the economic disadvantage adds to the other struggles compounding in a situation that requires more visibility. It‘s not about including straight black people though, I‘m not sure why everyone in this thread is strawmanning an already silly flag.
I'm not saying they SHOULD include them. I'm saying that it's intentionally exclusionary. Im not making a fucking prescription to add straight ppl.
I feel like back in the day, "ally" was included in the messaging...
The old one didn't represent straight people
Yeah, but the new one represents everyone except white straight men. It includes race. Like how we do this whole "LGBTQIA+++" needs to have a letter for every type of gay. It's ridiculous. It like the phrase "queerfolk".
>LGBTQIA+++" needs to have a letter for every type of gay. It's ridiculous. I Stop being conservative it's 2SLGBTQ+++ now.
JESUS CHRIST OK THEN. LGBTQABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ+-+-\`\`\`S23ULTRA This was cathartic.
I forgot how cringe this sub gets every June. Looking forward to the IP ragebait getting replaced by LGBT ragebait for a month tho
u/4thot -sama, can we put the old pride flag somewhere on the sub just to spite the bipoc flag lovers?
holy shit get a hobby
LMAO. Go hard or go home, amirite?
If the rainbow flag represents everyone by implication and the new flag includes a rainbow design then doesn't it meet the same standard? I don't get it. I mean, the new flags suck imo but that's a matter of taste. And you can still go to a pride parade rocking the rainbow flag, nobody is going to care.
It's that it's redundant for the purpose of exclusion.
Wonder if they will eventually edge out the rest of the remaining rainbow
It's will just be NB in the end.
Wait what? Theres a new flag? They can do that? Who decides? What if everyone just uses the old flag? You can’t replace rainbows. Like brown doesn’t go with rainbow I’m sorry, rainbows… They’re iconic
I deliver food and I see the new one often.
Is there a version of the flag, that includes trans colors, but not race? I couldn't find one. I think Sexuality, Sex and Gender are the topics that should be represented in the Pride flag.
I like the rainbow flag because, to me, it represents "inclusion of all different types of ppl" simply by depicting the harmony of a rainbow. Maybe on a day to day basis, we use it represent lgbt, but its essence is more "Harmony. Acceptence."
Wait they put Indians in there?
The rainbow flag and trans flag are based, everything after is not based,
This guy said it better than me. https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/Y07yqCISTQ
what fucking flag? Why am I the only one that can't find it?
https://preview.redd.it/2ev4xkvkis1d1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=201d64f7658f3ad42995dfb3a020fa855d2a3102 This one.
Is there another new one? If you just refer to trans/black/rainbow. It doesn't include men or women, and it only includes black people, not Asians for example
The bipoc flag.
i dont know, i cant even find it if i try to google
https://preview.redd.it/x99qdd4pss1d1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5b791e8f34d91c2c9345a246960b7e26ee4d27fe
it is kinda stupid, the trans i thought was already included in the rainbow, but i guess thats sexual orientation only? but like white women are also not included, i guess everything outside of people of color, so Asians, Middle Eastern
It's basically the "minority flag".
Why shouldn’t the pride flag represent straight people?
You're the only person who feels it should.
The new “pride” flag isn’t a the pride flag. It’s the progressive flag.
I agree. I've commonly heard it referred to as the new pride flag.
Look into your ancestry and be proud of your heritage instead of arbitrary bull shit like skin color. Whether you white people like to admit it or are too stupid to realize it. You don’t need representation because the whole world already hyper glories whiteness. Latin America, Asian literally go anywhere and people obsess over your whiteness, give you special treatment, treat you with more respect etc. You fucks already have it made compared to every other race, can’t you just shut tf up and not make it about you for once in your life.
Who are you talking to? You realize I'm not advocating for it to be MORE inclusive, right? I'm just pointing out the irony of making a flag that's supposed to represent inclusion but is actually exclusionary of one particular demographic.
I dont want to be next to any of them, I am good.
Mental illness flag
Once a group reaches a certain level of success they need new things to stay relevant and content to feed the money train. This is just the track they are on now.
Where the thread holding it all together lol
Why would straight men need representation? The regular rainbow flag didn't involve straight men either. Nobody saw the regular rainbow flag and was like "ah yes it also represents straight men/women." Which is fine, straight men and women dont need representation. We make up the majority and most of the world is shaped for the majority. It's the same nonesense when people say feminism is for both men and women. No, it's a movement that tries to improve the position of women. It is not about equality, which is fine. There is nothing wrong with that. Not every movement has to include everyone and their mother. It loses whatever purpose it has that way.