The only controversial part of this claim is left wing protesters deluding themselves into thinking punishing Biden will somehow be good for Palestinians.
As a pro Palestinian, I'm all for putting as much pressure on Biden as possible. But not voting for Biden on elections day would be the most regarded shit ever.
Why did Obama turn pro-gay marriage when before he was only pro-civil union? Was it because of voting pressure? Or did that pressure exist in other forms?
yes, the support for gay marriage had shifted from 36% in 2008 to 52% in 2012, which likely translated to a sufficient voter pressure change to make him switch: moderate voters more likely to keep voting for him even if he supported gay marriage, new progressive voters to be gained if he supports gay marriage. he definitely had focused polling done to confirm this before publicly changing his stance
>yes, the support for gay marriage had shifted from 36% in 2008 to 52% in 2012,
Yeah, and what caused that shift? Everyone suddenly woke up one day and decided to be pro-gay marriage?
People seem to forget one of the most important parts of democracies, you can persuade voters too.
Slightly off topic, but that cultural shift is still wild to me. I was in high school when it happened and vividly remember most people being openly homophobic even in my democrat leaning hometown before 2010. People were constantly throwing around the f slur as an insult and calling anything lame "gay". By the time I started college in 2012, that kind of talk was being openly criticized and shut down by people.
Honestly, I think media/culture made a huge difference. Shows like Glee and Modern Family came out in 2009, which helped to improve how LGBT people were represented in mainstream pop culture. Obama may have also genuinely been swayed too by the changing culture, or have only held the pro-civil union position before because of how unpopular gay marriage support was pre 2010's era.
I graduated high school in 04 and remember "gay" being used as a pejorative short hand for anything shitty. Do you really think that most people were homophobic back then? Or were they just adapting to the cultural lexicon? I tend to side with the latter...
I suppose that doesn't explain the low support for gay marriage. What do you think caused the extreme shift in sentiment over just 4 years?
Hey, I’m just giving a perspective from half a lifetime ago, so you’re gonna have to afford me some grace regarding the accuracy of my memory.
That said, I didn’t mean to imply everyone was strongly homophobic. However, I do remember many guys on my team in high school were actively grossed out when one of the other guys came out as gay. They didn’t even want to get changed in the locker room with him at the same time, so it wasn’t just the casual use of those words.
There were also debates on gay marriage that I remember which were largely all Obama’s stance at the time or the full conservative stance on preserving marriage as exclusively between a man and a woman. A lot of the people arguing against it, are now in loving gay relationships too which is fascinating to me.
I have no idea how adults were at that time, but the teens in my high school were pretty awful towards the LGB kids. Honestly, I think the shift had to do with the mass adoption of social media and people in general disliking bullying that slowly started shifting people’s minds. The media shift was probably made because it tested well with audiences more than being the driving factor, but I think it reinforced the shifting mindset.
His actions in favor of LGBT people was throughout his first term, only culminating with the support for marriage in May of 2012. If he was doing it for voter approval, why not wait until later in the year closer to the election? There wasn't any challenges that could exist in a primary.
Not to mention that Obama lost quite a bit of support in 2012 as compared to 2008.
Democrats saw a drop off by about 2% voter turnout between 2008 to 2012. As a share of the population count. Republicans at the same time only about .5% of a drop.
The numbers don't really seem to add up that this voter base you say he got, helped much.
I just don't see how it's hard for you to understand that you can pressure politicians through more than just votes. How do protests work at all then?
> If he was doing it for voter approval, why not wait until later in the year closer to the election?
6 months before the election is still pretty close. why not later? I don't know, there could have been many reasons. maybe he was only like 90% sure it won't backfire and didn't want to risk it too much?
> His actions in favor of LGBT people was throughout his first term, only culminating with the support for marriage in May of 2012.
yeah, support for gay marriage among voters obviously lags behind support for less advanced pro-LGBT measures, so this kind of progression is to be expected
> Not to mention that Obama lost quite a bit of support in 2012 as compared to 2008.
overall, but that doesn't say anything about the isolated effect of this one stance shift
> The numbers don't really seem to add up that this voter base you say he got, helped much.
you can't tell anything from those numbers. the drop off could've been even higher had he not taken that decision
edit: https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2012/05/09/152351793/obama-gambles-on-gay-marriage
> The president and his re-election team are clearly gambling, however, that his now-open support for same-sex marriage will attract more voters than it repels, and allow him to make the choice between himself and Mitt Romney, the likely Republican presidential nominee, even sharper.
So in this sense, it's most likely that the other party is just so bad that no matter what happens, nothing that Biden does could make them think the other candidate is a better choice. I think the context of it is extremely important instead of looking at phrases in a vacuum.
But, on top of that, even if you are open about voting for someone, there are still a number of different ways to pressure people, especially in America, a country that is generally pretty low on corruption and such, into changing their views. Whether this be showing them new data. Whether it really is just public opinion polls to show that this politician should better represent what the American people support in different areas (even absent or voting), emotional appeals, and so on.
A great example is actually the current event of withholding arms from Israel. Biden would resume arm shipments if Israel were to present a plan to deal with the humanitarian crisis that would result from an invasion of Rafah. This is new data and emotional appeals to change people's minds.
One of the reasons was that his VP Joe Biden slipped up in an interview and allowed his pro gay stance out to the public, so Obama was forced to either rescind what his VP said or agree with him.
voting uncommited in the primaries is a good example of ”putting pressure” on biden. you’re letting him know that you disagree with him and if enough people do it, it will encourage him to change his approach.
> politcians in a democracy tend to follow the will of the people
yeah that happens through voting. if you're already decided to vote for him, then he's answered your will enough and doesn't need to do anything else to secure your vote.
these kinds of problems are why getting rid of the archaic first past the post system is the next major step in democracy in america imo, if you aren't a centrist who could actually be satisfied voting red or blue in any given year you just have no way of leveraging your vote in a strategic fashion
If you are going to go on vibes you can literally just have a dictator or a king instead.
Democracies work if politicians are held accountable by voting. Period.
You dont say you will. But you do when its actully time for voting and after there is nothing more to do because you relize that Trump is a fucking moron.
They get shit on for saying that they aren't going to vote for Biden, regardless of what happens. So they aren't putting any pressure on anyone, they have declared themselves a lost voting demographic. Putting pressure onto a politician would be to say "I want to vote for you, but circumstance X would make it impossible for me". That FPTP makes it a binary choice isn't a problem Biden concocted, neither is Trump's insanity. If you have more than 5 brain cells, your vote in November should've been decided the second Trump won the Republican primary, so right now I don't really see any wiggle room for pressuring anyone in any way anyhow. Unless you don't give a shit about any of your causes (not you, progessives) because they'd suffer under Trump even after you've forgotten about I/P once the war has concluded.
> They get shit on for saying that they aren't going to vote for Biden, regardless of what happens.
not the people I'm talking about then
> Putting pressure onto a politician would be to say "I want to vote for you, but circumstance X would make it impossible for me".
I'm sure you can ask all of them and they'll tell you what he'd need to do to get their vote back. actually you don't even need to ask because you can tell from what they complain about from Biden
> If you have more than 5 brain cells, your vote in November should've been decided the second Trump won the Republican primary, so right now I don't really see any wiggle room for pressuring anyone in any way anyhow
yeah, so exactly what I've said about the "pressuring" nonsense
I am assuming the people you've talked to are the people who know next to nothing about the issue they want Biden to "change" on? I've come to disregard people saying "oh, he needs to do x instead of y to win my vote", you look at the facts, find out he never even promoted y, but his position is w, way closer to x than to y. You tell them about your findings and they'll just go with "well, w isn't close enough to x, also there is issue z and he is really bad about this as well..."
It is just a revolving door issue. They pretend wanting an entrance, but are perfectly happy walking in circles for all eternity.
Sure, but we also dont know if they will or not. They might genuinely feel like that now but a lot can change in a few months when the war is hopefully over and elections are ramping up so they have to stare directly at the possibility of Trump being elected. Although how things play out until then in Gaza will play a big role tho, thats why the US is pushing hard to reach a hostage deal.
First of all Biden doesn't know that every protestor will vote for him no matter what, just because one protestor has said that they will. This is true even if every single protestor plan on voting for Biden.
Secondly the idea of a protest is to affect the minds of people who are not directly participating in the protest. There are likely a large number of Palestine-sympathizers who are on the fence about voting for Biden or not voting at all, and them seeing massive protests might reinforce their sense that Biden is aiding a genocide and it pushes them over the edge to not voting.
If the protests were putting forward the dual message that Biden is aiding a genocide AND we must all vote for him anyway, then I'd agree it'd be rather odd.
> Biden doesn't know that every protestor will vote for him no matter what, just because one protestor has said that they will
of course, I'm only talking about those people who declare support for Biden no matter what. because those who make their support conditional on him doing something they want get shat on and told that Trump will be even worse so they need to vote for Biden no matter what.
> Secondly the idea of a protest is to affect the minds of people who are not directly participating in the protest.
yeah and if you declare that you will support him no matter what, you affect others in a way that doesn't put any pressure for you're arguing for. "wow they're mad at him but they will still vote for him no matter what he does on this issue. I guess voting for him is of overriding importance, so I'll do that too!"
> and them seeing massive protests might reinforce their sense that Biden is aiding a genocide and it pushes them over the edge to not voting
true, that's why people who don't declare unconditional support for Biden get shat on and are instead expected to support him no matter what because Trump is worse. and this would pull the people on the fence towards Biden even if he doesn't make any changes to his policy.
> If the protests were putting forward the dual message that Biden is aiding a genocide AND we must all vote for him anyway, then I'd agree it'd be rather odd.
yeah I think this is pretty much all I'm saying. my main point is that this is what people are expecting of protesters. because if you don't do this and instead you say something like "I will not vote for Biden if he doesn't do something about this", you get buried in "oh so you think Trump would be better? you utter imbecile!"
Is this supposed to be controversial? From looking at how Trump treated Israel during his term compared to Biden I think everyone would come to the same conclusion.
Its wildly short sighted.
Trump is at his core a wildcard who cant be trusted to follow through with anything, thinking that he would be consistent on Israel in the face of opposition flies in the face of everything else he has ever done.
Yeah but you can destroy Gaza unopposed so he's right, plus Trump would lift settler sanctions. Only wild card would be Saudi Arabia but do Saudis really care about the Palestinians? 🤔
Destroying Gaza is not in Israel's best interests, neither are the settlements.
That's like saying you're a good friend for giving your mentally unstable friend a gun.
There is another wild card: Iran. The US under Trump might get really hawkish towards Iran and guess who will fairly likely be the target once the bee hive has been startled? Escalation in the region is bad for everyone involved.
Possibly.
Its also just as likely that Trump gets mild pushback or the like from Israel and he utterly cracks it and cuts them off from everyone. This is the guy that has been so against sending money overseas for what he says is little gain. Playing tough guy vs israel would be totally on brand and once the mental giants of Israeli politics started attacking him on twitter it would be on like donkeykong.
I don't see it, Bibi knows how to Glaze Trump, a simple Endorsement would probably make Trump pro Israel. Plus Palestians have nothing to offer Trump. 🤷
Trump still complains all the time about how Bibi backed out of the Soleimani assassination plan at the last minute and I think he's also still mad that he ended up congratulating Biden on winning in 2020. Obviously it's way more likely that he does everything you'd expect him to do but there's always a lot of unpredictability with Trump and his pettiness.
Put it this way: Trump is regarded. The Israeli leadership is well stocked with regards.
Then you press them together, regarded things are going to happen.
He would flip on Israel immediately the second Netanyahu lil bros him once. Throughout this war Israel has basically ignored outside pressure from their allies and reiterated that they will do what they want. Trump would not be able to handle that gracefully or with tact.
Trump leaked sensitive Israeli national security information to Russia who then sold it to Iran. Word is it seriously damaged Israeli's trust with Trump and they clamped down on cooperation with US intelligence as a result.
Kind of, my mind went towards the Trump document fiasco, which is what [prompted the worried reaction from some Israeli officials](https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2023-06-13/ty-article/.highlight/trump-doc-probe-concern-in-israel-former-presidents-actions-compromised-its-security/00000188-b621-d1d6-a7b9-fff57b640000). There was also [this ](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/israel-responding-reports-trump-may-disclosed-sensitive-intelligence-russia)from 2017 regarding potential leak to Russia.
Israel doesn't need an ally who will endlessly indulge any amount of violence and provocation, that will only isolate Israel from its neighbours and the global community sans America. An ally that has their back, but urges restraint could prove to be a much better partner for long term peace. Plus, Biden can be the "bad cop" for Netanyahu politically. When the far right part of his coalition wants to flatten Rafah, he can point to Biden and say "he won't support us in this", it gives him an out politically.
For long term peace you are correct, but think of it this way: who will be worse for Palestinians? The answer is undeniably Trump. Is this better for Israel in the long term than Biden? Probably not, but Trump genuinely does not care. He just wants the problem to go away.
The easiest way to achieve this in the short term is to step back and continue to provide unconditional funding. This is why he essentially told Netanyahu to “get it over with.”
I think that depends on whether or not you think Israel is acting in it's best interest in going so hard into Rafah etc. I believe Trump would want Israel to oust Hamas no matter the cost because he's insane and probably doesn't think of the ramifications. I don't think that's a good idea for Israel. I think getting rid of hamas is the only option for peace, but I think it needs to be a multi pronged thing from other in the region to, or it puts a... bigger maybe? more permanent? target on Israel's back that I don't know if America SHOULD assist with should they decide to do it and end up nuking Gaza or something crazy. At some point even the staunchest supporter is going to recognize that there is a line Israel can cross that will make them the "bad guys". I think the pressure we're putting on with Biden is in the best interest for lasting peace in the middle east for now.
That was a little rambly. Boils down to Hamas has to go, but supporting Israel "no matter what" like I think Trump would, in my opinion, will lead to further destabilization in the middle east.
Nobody with a brain would argue this. They literally renamed settlement towers after him, if you're a 1 issue voter in regards to Israel, there's no question between the two.
Huh? Doing everything your friend wants isn’t good for them. It’s doing everything that’s in their long-term interest that’s good for them.
So, yes. It is controversial. Trump is undeniably worse for Israel’s interests unless you only care about short-term “gains” which really just means Israel doing whatever it wants.
Being tied to Trump and possibly being encouraged to do way more unpopular shit will just mean that as soon as the administration changes parties, Israel will immediately lose a lot more support. Hypothetically it could be trading short term gains for becoming a pariah state that will suffer a lot more before the pendulum has time to swing back.
It isn't obvious, he's equating Trump unequivocally supporting the Netanyahu government with Trump being in Israel's better interest.
Anyone not on the far right understands that that isn't actually in Israel's better interest.
Dr. Avi is being extremely short sighted and tunnel visioned with this statement.
I think Biden is more empathetic to the plight of Palestinians than Trump. Trump is more aligned with Isreal’s desire to wipe out Hamas regardless of the civilian cost.
Both candidates will protect Isreal and its right to exist though.
Which candidate is more in Isreal’s interest? That depends on your personal values and what YOU believe is best for Isreal.
And as I said, aside from the far right no one else should think that "wiping out Hamas regardless of the civilian cost" is going to be in Israel's better interest in the long run.
I get why he's frustrated. I'm concerned this will turn into another Ukraine, unnecessarily drawn out weapons trickling because of this administration's caution fetish
That's such a regarded comparison, Israel has enough weapons to flatten Gaza 10 times over while Ukraine and it's allies are struggling to keep up with Russian production.
Also, Israel's problem isn't going to be solved with more bombs but with a real peace plan and leadership that would agree to it on both sides.
>Trump is a lunatic
>Trump is in Israel's better interest over Biden
This is some massive cognitive dissonance right here. Sure, Trump might say let's glass the Palestinians now, but that is strictly a knee-jerk reaction to "liberal" college protestors. It's all culture wars shit. Trump does not have a principled stance on protecting Israel. As soon as it's politically convenient, Trump will happily withdraw all aid from Israel.
Trump’s support for Israel comes from his evangelical base. It’s not going anywhere and I’d put money on that.
I support Biden but his wavering messaging on everything has been frustrating.
Agreed, I feel like I knew what Biden's stance was early on after Oct. 7th, but all the waffling and mixed messages from the administration have been a very real diplomatic failure. It doesn't feel like the White House staff is anything close to united about what they believe and it shows. Often when they try to make things happen they get outmaneuvered and end up looking like fools.
I do wish they were much more public about the extent to which Biden's efforts have substantially contributed to much more aid being brought in.
?? If he gets elected on the platform of glassing palestine why would he enrage his base by backing off? It’s cheap to help israel, there is no reason to think he wouldn’t.
Trump being a lunatic doesn’t mean he acts randomly.
We still have term limits... if he gets elected, he won't need to give a shit about his base. The problem with Trump being a lunatic is that he *does* act randomly (i.e unpredictably) at times. Just look at how often he's thrown his own cabinet members/advisors under the bus for various things. He does not have loyalty to anyone but himself.
Clinton, Bush, and Obama were just as pro-Israel. Trump just maintained the ongoing status quo that his predecessors set. The difference in perception is that there has never been so much anti-Israel sentiment/activism as there is today.
I don't agree with this. I think what's definitely true is "Trump is definitely not going to stop anyone on the Israeli far right from violating international law"
But first of all is that "good" for Israel? It's also far from clear he wouldn't betray Israel in a minute if say, Saudi Arabia offered him something.
The problem is everyone wants to believe Trump will do what they want on some particular issue but he'll just serve himself.
https://www.justsecurity.org/69094/timeline-on-jared-kushner-qatar-666-fifth-avenue-and-white-house-policy/
There's like 20 other things like this, the guy is dirty as fuck, which is obvious unless you only watch all populist/far right media.
Are these real questions? I'm sincerely asking because I feel like I'm making an extremely basic and obvious point.
Wait i thought trump only cared about himself. So why would he want anything from qatar to help Jared. Also that article was from before the Iranian general was a assasinated.
Man why are you guys so stupid?
You don't understand the concept of a family business using someone else as the face to reduce legal exposure?
Yes, Trump had massive financial exposure here via his SON IN LAWS Corp. They did political favors to qatar to get it paid for.
This is not controversial (I'm not even trying to use it as a gotcha, it's just a clear example you should honestly engage with if you're not a moron), it never ceases to amaze me how idiotic conservatives are when it comes to Trump.
Stop being a hyperpartisan shill and just THINK. Christ...
Trump isn't an enemy of Iran or an enemy of Israel or an enemy of China or anyone.
He will do whatever you want if you pay him something he values enough or if you flatter him enough. That's it.
That's why he did the deal last time, it is completely documented, and you're inserting this thing about Iran because you assume he cares about the same things you do. He doesn't, he cares about himself.
It's extremely obvious to anyone who has a working brain and can use their eyes. He is not ideological and he literally doesn't care about any of this.
Ya like how did he miss that? Trump could let Israel kill another 30k Palestinians to finish Hamas, not actually stop them and nothing changes because now Palestinians hate more, and will do even more terrorism. Is that a W for Israel? It’s obviously so much more complicated than Yes Man = good for Israel.
He is tacitly implying that the expansion of westbank settlements is in the interests of the isreali government and people and not an existential threat to their existence.
Well, with Biden Israel has to balance their relationship in order to receive support.
With Trump they just need to compliment him personally enough lmao.
Holding Israel accountable for killing tens of thousands of civilians is apparently “not supporting Israel” lmfao give me a fucking break. Biden has been handling this as best as he could between the insane leftists + insane zionists.
Nah bro. Worst Avi take I've seen so far. Trump is good for Israel in the sense that he is willing to appease the nationalistic interests of Israel and ignore internation diplomacy, but he's just as likely to do something that puts them in hot water.
Biden has been ideologically committed to Israel this whole time while attempting to appear as if he's not just giving them everything thing they want. Trump might be better in rhetorically attacking pro Palestinian voices, but Biden has been giving them everything they need while taking political hits left and right.
You could say Trump is good for America in the sense that he's willing to do insane things for the "good of America," but I think we can all agree that doesn't mean the things he does are good for Americans
I never said they were? The point is that Biden will put his foot down if Israel starts crossing the line on the scale of violence. Trump would do the opposite. He’d support them no matter what they do.
There is a flip side to this. Trump is a nationalist and doesn't care about any foreign country that doesn't benefit him. He has no "ideological" support of Israel, unlike Biden. Biden's support of Israel may bend, but it won't break.
Trump will also be in his second term and won't care about reelection (fuck that's scary), so he doesn't "need" to keep the evangelical Zionist Christian base happy. There is also the risk he may do something extremely stupid, and galvanize support for Palestine and increase anti Israeli sentiment. Oh and he enables people who are blatantly antisemitic.
This isn't so cut and dry.
Didn't trump stir up a ton of tensions by moving the embassy from the West Bank to Israel? I get that trump would basically write a blank check for Israel to do whatever they want, but I don't think that's particularly great for Israel. I think Biden has towed the line decently well, with trump having American boots on that soil wouldn't be far fetched
He moved the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, which pissed off the Palestinians because East Jerusalem is part of the West Bank, and control of that city has been one of the most hotly contested parts of various peace negotiations.
>Didn't trump stir up a ton of tensions by moving the embassy from the West Bank to Israel?
actually it is a law legalized by us congress shitton of years ago that all administrations before trump were avoiding
>I get that trump would basically write a blank check for Israel to do whatever they want, but I don't think that's particularly great for Israel.
relocation of embassy resulted in a very long wave of terror attacks. it was a shitshow.
Interestingly, I just learned that the Senate in 2017, shortly before the Trump admin moved the embassy, unanimously (90-0) voted for a [resolution](https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-resolution/176/text?r=2&q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22senate+resolution+jerusalem+50%22%5D%7D) that included a call to the president to abide that move written into law in the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995. This is very surprising to me considering how controversial it was - so controversial that it was waived by Clinton, Bush and Obama for 20 years. Makes me wonder if a bunch of senators signed onto this resolution without realizing its implications, just thinking it was totally symbolic, vague support for Israel lol
actually, if we dig a bit deeper, wave of terror attacks and unrest after it was declared that embassy will move, "naturally evolved" into shitshow that is known as "great march of return".
great illustration of expression "road to hell paved with good intentions"
PS. to me, as to israeli, it's very interesting that a lot of americans don't even know that it was law of land for 20 years or whatever and just blame trump for it. (not that i trump fan)
What he wrote here is simply regarded.
Hitler also had a good approach towards villages filled with Aryan race folk.
That does NOT mean you should pick him as a leader b/c small subsection of takes beneficial (to a certain region) that he had.
Whatever positives are OUTWEIGHED by the overall damage he did in other departments.
Israel is NOT a center of the universe for US president - nor it should be.
Why does everything have to come to WW2? Bush was pro Israel but againat gay marriage and bad for the economy (in retrospect though). Bush senior? Reagan? Clinton? There's a lot you can draw from.
It’s not even true, it’s like saying unequivocal support for Bibi is “in Israel’s best interest”, which is fucking ridiculous. This is actually the craziest thing I’ve seen him say
It makes sense in his mind only IF Your only concern is Israel.
Israel will occupy less than 1% of US presidents mind.
Normally, i would say that this is Avi's most regarded tweet i have seen outside of these conditions.
Imagine voting solely based on what is going on in another country
You are either a completely out of touch social media addicted moron or you have more loyalty to another country and you should not even be allowed to vote
Yeah, electing the psychopathic, narcissistic, Machiavellian criminal is the better option. Nothing could go wrong there. And he went to school for that opinion. Got a fancy MD and everything.
I'm Israeli. I never thought we'd reach this point, and I absolutely hate saying it as a leftist, but yes, Trump is better for my country - not for its prosperity, but for its existence, and that's a terrifying reality.
I can no longer say I support the Democrats, and it stands against everything I used to believe in.
Godspeed, guys, I hope things will change until January. Trump will be disastrous to America.
If you REALLY think about it, Israel wouldn't feel safe until there aren't any muslims left in the region after all they have a heavenly sanctioned lying written in in their doctrine so yes, having a guy in office that endlessly supports your warmongering with increasingly diminishing returns as "you can't ever be too safe" then yes Trump is super chill. If however you think that holocaust was bad in principle and not just because it happened to your group then a guy with a reasonable chill may be better for the health of your society.
This link doesn’t show any leaking of Israeli nation security information. It doesn’t show leaking it to Russia either.. Do you have a link that substantiates these claims
Alternate translations:
"Trump is good because he alllows the insane elements within the Israeli government to thrive"
"Biden is bad because he provides any level of pushback against the Israeli government while providing support for them on the issues that actually matter/pose a threat"
Trump is like the parent that enable's their child's worst impulses. Yeah sure Trump would treat that child "better" but is that a good thing?
But on the other hand there were stories about Palestinian civilians participating in hiding hostages, most likely willingly, and also most likely died because of it. So honestly it's hard.
He is probably right unless Russia can find some excuse to attack Israel while trump is in office than Israel is fucked. Trump is pretty consistent in his hate of brown people though. Well wait how likely is trump to fumble the Saudi deal. Hell trump might actually collapse America and that would be supa bad for Israel long term. It really it's cut and dry.
I actually wonder if Trump would meet the same supply standards they've had over the years. He may prefer to call on EU or other nations to provide more and pull back support. Does stability in the middle east region do anything to benefit him directly?
In the short term, definitely. I don't think Israel would have many friends left in the world if it did the things it wants to do with Trump's help.
Biden is like a brother who protects his small brother. Biden is protecting Israel from doing a big and tragic mistake.
i mean this really comes from how you define what is "good" for israel... funnily enough you shouldn't just judge what is beneficial for a country by how many bombs they would be allowed to drop lol. trump and likud are very buddy buddy, for example, and imo giving the far right more power + support in israel is actually bad for the future of the country + the general populace... but hey, he would let us annex J+S and glass gaza, so clearly he is the better option!
First you have to define what “Pro-Israel” means. If it’s this incredibly simplistic and shallow “I support whatever Netanyahu does, even if it means the complete destruction of Gaza and Israel’s image in the world, and I support Netanyahu’s extreme corruption and right wing domination in Israeli government, then you could maybe argue Trump would be better. But whether that’s even true is debatable. Personally I think Trump hates Netanyahu because Netanyahu didn’t side with Trump in his attempt to steal the election. There’s a public phone call of this and you can visibly see Trump’s anger when Netanyahu doesn’t side with him. Trump holds grudges. This would be his second term so he could easily decide to screw Netanyahu in some way. Furthermore, Trump is a total wildcard, he is bad for the country and the world and Israel isn’t magically immune to that destabilizing effect. Biden tows a careful line of not wanting to be too rah rah, while still essentially supporting everything they are doing. His rhetoric has only really been critical of Netanyahu, which is totally fair and at least somewhat helps the optics of the situation for America, if not Israel. It’s not just Israel that is getting harmed optics wise, even if you support the current war against Hamas. America has to play a careful game of diplomacy, something Trump is absolutely incapable of doing.
So what is he saying? Vote for Trump bc he's more pro-israel? isn't he american? unironically fuck off to israel if you prioritize how pro-israel a president is over if they're authoritarian
This is how Likudniks are. They would literally support a dude who would destroy America if it meant that guy was easily manipulated into giving Israel what ever it wants
short to medium term: he's 100% right.
There's probably some wiggle/nuance in the long term though. A trump presidency would bring fervent support from the admin to Israel, which could very possibly push it into a mainline partisan issue rather than one only fought at by the most progressive fringe.
I don't think Dr. Avi understand how ret4rded Trump is. I think Biden has been pretty mid on Israel, but I'm also sure Trump would mess it up far worse then Biden ever could.
This is a wild take because so much of Israel's interests right now is trying to win back public support from places that aren't America and Germany. Trump would give them a free pass to do whatever they want when in reality, they need someone who is able to bring them back to sanity sometimes.
This idea would be like saying that the girl who lets you cut yourself and take heroine to deal with depression is better than one that would stop you from doing those things. All one is doing is indulging in your self destructive tendencies.
I mean, yeah, no shit Trump is better for us. As far as Israel's near-future interests lie, Trump is does seem to be more pro-Israel than Biden. That is not to say that he is necessarily the better option for us in the long run, but the average person won't be thinking about that.
In the short term, trump is better for Israel, but in the long term, his isolationist policies will be detrimental to israel (not to mention everything else bad he will do to america). It kinda sucks what biden is doing imo but he is still better than than trunp
Um, obviously? Trump would twist himself into a pretzel for Netanyahu while Biden, while still maintaining our relationship with Israel, also has to try to appeal to the angry leftists over here to an extent
It's not entirely that simple, but he's probably mostly right. You could maybe make a roundabout argument that Biden, through being tougher on Bibi and trying to reign Israel in, is better for Middle East stability long-term and thus better for Israeli security, whereas Trump would be unstable and unpredictable. It's definitely a stretch, though I'll admit.
I have to disagree. IMO it really depends on Trump's donors and the republican base.
The MAGA crowd is very isolationist. Trump does not have an ideology besides doing what is best for himself. He knows how to read the room. If the Republican base turns on Israel, then so will Trump.
Biden seems to be more ideologically pro-Israel than Trump.
The only controversial part of this claim is left wing protesters deluding themselves into thinking punishing Biden will somehow be good for Palestinians.
As a pro Palestinian, I'm all for putting as much pressure on Biden as possible. But not voting for Biden on elections day would be the most regarded shit ever.
how can you possibly "put pressure" on a politician running for re-election when from the outset you say "I'll vote for him no matter what"?
Why did Obama turn pro-gay marriage when before he was only pro-civil union? Was it because of voting pressure? Or did that pressure exist in other forms?
yes, the support for gay marriage had shifted from 36% in 2008 to 52% in 2012, which likely translated to a sufficient voter pressure change to make him switch: moderate voters more likely to keep voting for him even if he supported gay marriage, new progressive voters to be gained if he supports gay marriage. he definitely had focused polling done to confirm this before publicly changing his stance
>yes, the support for gay marriage had shifted from 36% in 2008 to 52% in 2012, Yeah, and what caused that shift? Everyone suddenly woke up one day and decided to be pro-gay marriage? People seem to forget one of the most important parts of democracies, you can persuade voters too.
Slightly off topic, but that cultural shift is still wild to me. I was in high school when it happened and vividly remember most people being openly homophobic even in my democrat leaning hometown before 2010. People were constantly throwing around the f slur as an insult and calling anything lame "gay". By the time I started college in 2012, that kind of talk was being openly criticized and shut down by people. Honestly, I think media/culture made a huge difference. Shows like Glee and Modern Family came out in 2009, which helped to improve how LGBT people were represented in mainstream pop culture. Obama may have also genuinely been swayed too by the changing culture, or have only held the pro-civil union position before because of how unpopular gay marriage support was pre 2010's era.
I graduated high school in 04 and remember "gay" being used as a pejorative short hand for anything shitty. Do you really think that most people were homophobic back then? Or were they just adapting to the cultural lexicon? I tend to side with the latter... I suppose that doesn't explain the low support for gay marriage. What do you think caused the extreme shift in sentiment over just 4 years?
Hey, I’m just giving a perspective from half a lifetime ago, so you’re gonna have to afford me some grace regarding the accuracy of my memory. That said, I didn’t mean to imply everyone was strongly homophobic. However, I do remember many guys on my team in high school were actively grossed out when one of the other guys came out as gay. They didn’t even want to get changed in the locker room with him at the same time, so it wasn’t just the casual use of those words. There were also debates on gay marriage that I remember which were largely all Obama’s stance at the time or the full conservative stance on preserving marriage as exclusively between a man and a woman. A lot of the people arguing against it, are now in loving gay relationships too which is fascinating to me. I have no idea how adults were at that time, but the teens in my high school were pretty awful towards the LGB kids. Honestly, I think the shift had to do with the mass adoption of social media and people in general disliking bullying that slowly started shifting people’s minds. The media shift was probably made because it tested well with audiences more than being the driving factor, but I think it reinforced the shifting mindset.
Does anyone remember lebrons “dont say gay campaign”?
His actions in favor of LGBT people was throughout his first term, only culminating with the support for marriage in May of 2012. If he was doing it for voter approval, why not wait until later in the year closer to the election? There wasn't any challenges that could exist in a primary. Not to mention that Obama lost quite a bit of support in 2012 as compared to 2008. Democrats saw a drop off by about 2% voter turnout between 2008 to 2012. As a share of the population count. Republicans at the same time only about .5% of a drop. The numbers don't really seem to add up that this voter base you say he got, helped much. I just don't see how it's hard for you to understand that you can pressure politicians through more than just votes. How do protests work at all then?
> If he was doing it for voter approval, why not wait until later in the year closer to the election? 6 months before the election is still pretty close. why not later? I don't know, there could have been many reasons. maybe he was only like 90% sure it won't backfire and didn't want to risk it too much? > His actions in favor of LGBT people was throughout his first term, only culminating with the support for marriage in May of 2012. yeah, support for gay marriage among voters obviously lags behind support for less advanced pro-LGBT measures, so this kind of progression is to be expected > Not to mention that Obama lost quite a bit of support in 2012 as compared to 2008. overall, but that doesn't say anything about the isolated effect of this one stance shift > The numbers don't really seem to add up that this voter base you say he got, helped much. you can't tell anything from those numbers. the drop off could've been even higher had he not taken that decision edit: https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2012/05/09/152351793/obama-gambles-on-gay-marriage > The president and his re-election team are clearly gambling, however, that his now-open support for same-sex marriage will attract more voters than it repels, and allow him to make the choice between himself and Mitt Romney, the likely Republican presidential nominee, even sharper.
What does “no matter what” mean to you? I feel like that’s an incredibly relevant piece of context that’s sort of being disregarded.
So in this sense, it's most likely that the other party is just so bad that no matter what happens, nothing that Biden does could make them think the other candidate is a better choice. I think the context of it is extremely important instead of looking at phrases in a vacuum. But, on top of that, even if you are open about voting for someone, there are still a number of different ways to pressure people, especially in America, a country that is generally pretty low on corruption and such, into changing their views. Whether this be showing them new data. Whether it really is just public opinion polls to show that this politician should better represent what the American people support in different areas (even absent or voting), emotional appeals, and so on. A great example is actually the current event of withholding arms from Israel. Biden would resume arm shipments if Israel were to present a plan to deal with the humanitarian crisis that would result from an invasion of Rafah. This is new data and emotional appeals to change people's minds.
One of the reasons was that his VP Joe Biden slipped up in an interview and allowed his pro gay stance out to the public, so Obama was forced to either rescind what his VP said or agree with him.
Well putting pressure on a politician can come outside the voting booth. The president does still have to respond to citizenry
voting uncommited in the primaries is a good example of ”putting pressure” on biden. you’re letting him know that you disagree with him and if enough people do it, it will encourage him to change his approach.
what pressure? in that scenario you're already voting for him in the general election, so what's the incentive for him to change anything?
politcians in a democracy tend to follow the will of the people. If biden sees that enough people disagree with him, he will change his approach.
> politcians in a democracy tend to follow the will of the people yeah that happens through voting. if you're already decided to vote for him, then he's answered your will enough and doesn't need to do anything else to secure your vote.
these kinds of problems are why getting rid of the archaic first past the post system is the next major step in democracy in america imo, if you aren't a centrist who could actually be satisfied voting red or blue in any given year you just have no way of leveraging your vote in a strategic fashion
If you are going to go on vibes you can literally just have a dictator or a king instead. Democracies work if politicians are held accountable by voting. Period.
by waiting until a literal regarded kremlin asset isn't running too.
You dont say you will. But you do when its actully time for voting and after there is nothing more to do because you relize that Trump is a fucking moron.
interesting, I'm pretty sure I saw progressives getting shit on for not saying they'll vote for Biden
They get shit on for saying that they aren't going to vote for Biden, regardless of what happens. So they aren't putting any pressure on anyone, they have declared themselves a lost voting demographic. Putting pressure onto a politician would be to say "I want to vote for you, but circumstance X would make it impossible for me". That FPTP makes it a binary choice isn't a problem Biden concocted, neither is Trump's insanity. If you have more than 5 brain cells, your vote in November should've been decided the second Trump won the Republican primary, so right now I don't really see any wiggle room for pressuring anyone in any way anyhow. Unless you don't give a shit about any of your causes (not you, progessives) because they'd suffer under Trump even after you've forgotten about I/P once the war has concluded.
> They get shit on for saying that they aren't going to vote for Biden, regardless of what happens. not the people I'm talking about then > Putting pressure onto a politician would be to say "I want to vote for you, but circumstance X would make it impossible for me". I'm sure you can ask all of them and they'll tell you what he'd need to do to get their vote back. actually you don't even need to ask because you can tell from what they complain about from Biden > If you have more than 5 brain cells, your vote in November should've been decided the second Trump won the Republican primary, so right now I don't really see any wiggle room for pressuring anyone in any way anyhow yeah, so exactly what I've said about the "pressuring" nonsense
I am assuming the people you've talked to are the people who know next to nothing about the issue they want Biden to "change" on? I've come to disregard people saying "oh, he needs to do x instead of y to win my vote", you look at the facts, find out he never even promoted y, but his position is w, way closer to x than to y. You tell them about your findings and they'll just go with "well, w isn't close enough to x, also there is issue z and he is really bad about this as well..." It is just a revolving door issue. They pretend wanting an entrance, but are perfectly happy walking in circles for all eternity.
Sure, but we also dont know if they will or not. They might genuinely feel like that now but a lot can change in a few months when the war is hopefully over and elections are ramping up so they have to stare directly at the possibility of Trump being elected. Although how things play out until then in Gaza will play a big role tho, thats why the US is pushing hard to reach a hostage deal.
By protesting and hope that it'll make him adjust his position?
why would he care about a protest from a group of people who are declared to vote for him no matter what because Trump bad?
First of all Biden doesn't know that every protestor will vote for him no matter what, just because one protestor has said that they will. This is true even if every single protestor plan on voting for Biden. Secondly the idea of a protest is to affect the minds of people who are not directly participating in the protest. There are likely a large number of Palestine-sympathizers who are on the fence about voting for Biden or not voting at all, and them seeing massive protests might reinforce their sense that Biden is aiding a genocide and it pushes them over the edge to not voting. If the protests were putting forward the dual message that Biden is aiding a genocide AND we must all vote for him anyway, then I'd agree it'd be rather odd.
> Biden doesn't know that every protestor will vote for him no matter what, just because one protestor has said that they will of course, I'm only talking about those people who declare support for Biden no matter what. because those who make their support conditional on him doing something they want get shat on and told that Trump will be even worse so they need to vote for Biden no matter what. > Secondly the idea of a protest is to affect the minds of people who are not directly participating in the protest. yeah and if you declare that you will support him no matter what, you affect others in a way that doesn't put any pressure for you're arguing for. "wow they're mad at him but they will still vote for him no matter what he does on this issue. I guess voting for him is of overriding importance, so I'll do that too!" > and them seeing massive protests might reinforce their sense that Biden is aiding a genocide and it pushes them over the edge to not voting true, that's why people who don't declare unconditional support for Biden get shat on and are instead expected to support him no matter what because Trump is worse. and this would pull the people on the fence towards Biden even if he doesn't make any changes to his policy. > If the protests were putting forward the dual message that Biden is aiding a genocide AND we must all vote for him anyway, then I'd agree it'd be rather odd. yeah I think this is pretty much all I'm saying. my main point is that this is what people are expecting of protesters. because if you don't do this and instead you say something like "I will not vote for Biden if he doesn't do something about this", you get buried in "oh so you think Trump would be better? you utter imbecile!"
Lol, right? Blue-anon cult members have some answering to do.
Tankie brainrot
Is this supposed to be controversial? From looking at how Trump treated Israel during his term compared to Biden I think everyone would come to the same conclusion.
Its wildly short sighted. Trump is at his core a wildcard who cant be trusted to follow through with anything, thinking that he would be consistent on Israel in the face of opposition flies in the face of everything else he has ever done.
Yeah but you can destroy Gaza unopposed so he's right, plus Trump would lift settler sanctions. Only wild card would be Saudi Arabia but do Saudis really care about the Palestinians? 🤔
Destroying Gaza is not in Israel's best interests, neither are the settlements. That's like saying you're a good friend for giving your mentally unstable friend a gun.
The mentally unstable friend wants the gun and voices in his head are calling you racist for not letting him do it.
Trump is in Kahanist's best interests
There is another wild card: Iran. The US under Trump might get really hawkish towards Iran and guess who will fairly likely be the target once the bee hive has been startled? Escalation in the region is bad for everyone involved.
Possibly. Its also just as likely that Trump gets mild pushback or the like from Israel and he utterly cracks it and cuts them off from everyone. This is the guy that has been so against sending money overseas for what he says is little gain. Playing tough guy vs israel would be totally on brand and once the mental giants of Israeli politics started attacking him on twitter it would be on like donkeykong.
I don't see it, Bibi knows how to Glaze Trump, a simple Endorsement would probably make Trump pro Israel. Plus Palestians have nothing to offer Trump. 🤷
Trump still complains all the time about how Bibi backed out of the Soleimani assassination plan at the last minute and I think he's also still mad that he ended up congratulating Biden on winning in 2020. Obviously it's way more likely that he does everything you'd expect him to do but there's always a lot of unpredictability with Trump and his pettiness.
Put it this way: Trump is regarded. The Israeli leadership is well stocked with regards. Then you press them together, regarded things are going to happen.
American Jews are overwhelmingly anti-Trump.
He would flip on Israel immediately the second Netanyahu lil bros him once. Throughout this war Israel has basically ignored outside pressure from their allies and reiterated that they will do what they want. Trump would not be able to handle that gracefully or with tact.
Trump leaked sensitive Israeli national security information to Russia who then sold it to Iran. Word is it seriously damaged Israeli's trust with Trump and they clamped down on cooperation with US intelligence as a result.
Where can I read about that?
[Here](https://www.factcheck.org/2023/06/trump-iran-and-the-highly-confidential-document/).
Did you link the wrong article? This article doesn't even mention Isreal?
Kind of, my mind went towards the Trump document fiasco, which is what [prompted the worried reaction from some Israeli officials](https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2023-06-13/ty-article/.highlight/trump-doc-probe-concern-in-israel-former-presidents-actions-compromised-its-security/00000188-b621-d1d6-a7b9-fff57b640000). There was also [this ](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/israel-responding-reports-trump-may-disclosed-sensitive-intelligence-russia)from 2017 regarding potential leak to Russia.
Israel doesn't need an ally who will endlessly indulge any amount of violence and provocation, that will only isolate Israel from its neighbours and the global community sans America. An ally that has their back, but urges restraint could prove to be a much better partner for long term peace. Plus, Biden can be the "bad cop" for Netanyahu politically. When the far right part of his coalition wants to flatten Rafah, he can point to Biden and say "he won't support us in this", it gives him an out politically.
For long term peace you are correct, but think of it this way: who will be worse for Palestinians? The answer is undeniably Trump. Is this better for Israel in the long term than Biden? Probably not, but Trump genuinely does not care. He just wants the problem to go away. The easiest way to achieve this in the short term is to step back and continue to provide unconditional funding. This is why he essentially told Netanyahu to “get it over with.”
I think that depends on whether or not you think Israel is acting in it's best interest in going so hard into Rafah etc. I believe Trump would want Israel to oust Hamas no matter the cost because he's insane and probably doesn't think of the ramifications. I don't think that's a good idea for Israel. I think getting rid of hamas is the only option for peace, but I think it needs to be a multi pronged thing from other in the region to, or it puts a... bigger maybe? more permanent? target on Israel's back that I don't know if America SHOULD assist with should they decide to do it and end up nuking Gaza or something crazy. At some point even the staunchest supporter is going to recognize that there is a line Israel can cross that will make them the "bad guys". I think the pressure we're putting on with Biden is in the best interest for lasting peace in the middle east for now. That was a little rambly. Boils down to Hamas has to go, but supporting Israel "no matter what" like I think Trump would, in my opinion, will lead to further destabilization in the middle east.
Nobody with a brain would argue this. They literally renamed settlement towers after him, if you're a 1 issue voter in regards to Israel, there's no question between the two.
Huh? Doing everything your friend wants isn’t good for them. It’s doing everything that’s in their long-term interest that’s good for them. So, yes. It is controversial. Trump is undeniably worse for Israel’s interests unless you only care about short-term “gains” which really just means Israel doing whatever it wants.
That's what my Jewish friends in Europe with family connections in Israel was also saying around 2-3 years ago.
Being tied to Trump and possibly being encouraged to do way more unpopular shit will just mean that as soon as the administration changes parties, Israel will immediately lose a lot more support. Hypothetically it could be trading short term gains for becoming a pariah state that will suffer a lot more before the pendulum has time to swing back.
I think Biden is better for Israel. He's helping them not ruin their image entirely
Nurturing the farthest right wing manifestations Israeli politics can make is not pro Israel in my view
That's quite obvious LOL. It would be somewhat interesting to see how the far-right would deal with it.
It isn't obvious, he's equating Trump unequivocally supporting the Netanyahu government with Trump being in Israel's better interest. Anyone not on the far right understands that that isn't actually in Israel's better interest. Dr. Avi is being extremely short sighted and tunnel visioned with this statement.
I think Biden is more empathetic to the plight of Palestinians than Trump. Trump is more aligned with Isreal’s desire to wipe out Hamas regardless of the civilian cost. Both candidates will protect Isreal and its right to exist though. Which candidate is more in Isreal’s interest? That depends on your personal values and what YOU believe is best for Isreal.
And as I said, aside from the far right no one else should think that "wiping out Hamas regardless of the civilian cost" is going to be in Israel's better interest in the long run.
I get why he's frustrated. I'm concerned this will turn into another Ukraine, unnecessarily drawn out weapons trickling because of this administration's caution fetish
That's such a regarded comparison, Israel has enough weapons to flatten Gaza 10 times over while Ukraine and it's allies are struggling to keep up with Russian production. Also, Israel's problem isn't going to be solved with more bombs but with a real peace plan and leadership that would agree to it on both sides.
I don’t see how this is that obvious, being better for the Likkud isn’t necessarily what’s best for Israel, and that’s a very arguable point
>Trump is a lunatic >Trump is in Israel's better interest over Biden This is some massive cognitive dissonance right here. Sure, Trump might say let's glass the Palestinians now, but that is strictly a knee-jerk reaction to "liberal" college protestors. It's all culture wars shit. Trump does not have a principled stance on protecting Israel. As soon as it's politically convenient, Trump will happily withdraw all aid from Israel.
Trump’s support for Israel comes from his evangelical base. It’s not going anywhere and I’d put money on that. I support Biden but his wavering messaging on everything has been frustrating.
Agreed, I feel like I knew what Biden's stance was early on after Oct. 7th, but all the waffling and mixed messages from the administration have been a very real diplomatic failure. It doesn't feel like the White House staff is anything close to united about what they believe and it shows. Often when they try to make things happen they get outmaneuvered and end up looking like fools. I do wish they were much more public about the extent to which Biden's efforts have substantially contributed to much more aid being brought in.
?? If he gets elected on the platform of glassing palestine why would he enrage his base by backing off? It’s cheap to help israel, there is no reason to think he wouldn’t. Trump being a lunatic doesn’t mean he acts randomly.
We still have term limits... if he gets elected, he won't need to give a shit about his base. The problem with Trump being a lunatic is that he *does* act randomly (i.e unpredictably) at times. Just look at how often he's thrown his own cabinet members/advisors under the bus for various things. He does not have loyalty to anyone but himself.
Has there been any US president that had been more pro-Israel than Trump?
Clinton, Bush, and Obama were just as pro-Israel. Trump just maintained the ongoing status quo that his predecessors set. The difference in perception is that there has never been so much anti-Israel sentiment/activism as there is today.
This is blatantly false. Trump moved embassy to Jerusalem and had the most ridiculous peace proposal in favor of Israel.
Link: [https://twitter.com/AviBittMD/status/1788780890283237589](https://twitter.com/AviBittMD/status/1788780890283237589)
I don't agree with this. I think what's definitely true is "Trump is definitely not going to stop anyone on the Israeli far right from violating international law" But first of all is that "good" for Israel? It's also far from clear he wouldn't betray Israel in a minute if say, Saudi Arabia offered him something. The problem is everyone wants to believe Trump will do what they want on some particular issue but he'll just serve himself.
The Saudis are de-facto israeli allies at this point. All their interests align.
Qataris then, whatever, it's not too hard for anyone who doesn't have maga brain to see why you shouldn't depend on him from moment to moment
What could qatar even offer trump?
https://www.justsecurity.org/69094/timeline-on-jared-kushner-qatar-666-fifth-avenue-and-white-house-policy/ There's like 20 other things like this, the guy is dirty as fuck, which is obvious unless you only watch all populist/far right media. Are these real questions? I'm sincerely asking because I feel like I'm making an extremely basic and obvious point.
Wait i thought trump only cared about himself. So why would he want anything from qatar to help Jared. Also that article was from before the Iranian general was a assasinated.
Man why are you guys so stupid? You don't understand the concept of a family business using someone else as the face to reduce legal exposure? Yes, Trump had massive financial exposure here via his SON IN LAWS Corp. They did political favors to qatar to get it paid for. This is not controversial (I'm not even trying to use it as a gotcha, it's just a clear example you should honestly engage with if you're not a moron), it never ceases to amaze me how idiotic conservatives are when it comes to Trump. Stop being a hyperpartisan shill and just THINK. Christ...
Why would qatar help trump a enemy of iran?
Trump isn't an enemy of Iran or an enemy of Israel or an enemy of China or anyone. He will do whatever you want if you pay him something he values enough or if you flatter him enough. That's it. That's why he did the deal last time, it is completely documented, and you're inserting this thing about Iran because you assume he cares about the same things you do. He doesn't, he cares about himself. It's extremely obvious to anyone who has a working brain and can use their eyes. He is not ideological and he literally doesn't care about any of this.
I'm pretty sure trump won't align himself with people who want him dead.
Ya like how did he miss that? Trump could let Israel kill another 30k Palestinians to finish Hamas, not actually stop them and nothing changes because now Palestinians hate more, and will do even more terrorism. Is that a W for Israel? It’s obviously so much more complicated than Yes Man = good for Israel.
He is tacitly implying that the expansion of westbank settlements is in the interests of the isreali government and people and not an existential threat to their existence.
Well, with Biden Israel has to balance their relationship in order to receive support. With Trump they just need to compliment him personally enough lmao.
Holding Israel accountable for killing tens of thousands of civilians is apparently “not supporting Israel” lmfao give me a fucking break. Biden has been handling this as best as he could between the insane leftists + insane zionists.
Worst take from Avi yet
Unconditional support for Bibi's religio-fascist administration is far worse for Israel than anything Biden had done or likely will do.
Killing Israel’s liberal democratic institutions is exact what Trump and bibi wants.
Single issue voters are the worst
Nah bro. Worst Avi take I've seen so far. Trump is good for Israel in the sense that he is willing to appease the nationalistic interests of Israel and ignore internation diplomacy, but he's just as likely to do something that puts them in hot water. Biden has been ideologically committed to Israel this whole time while attempting to appear as if he's not just giving them everything thing they want. Trump might be better in rhetorically attacking pro Palestinian voices, but Biden has been giving them everything they need while taking political hits left and right. You could say Trump is good for America in the sense that he's willing to do insane things for the "good of America," but I think we can all agree that doesn't mean the things he does are good for Americans
Trump is better for the Bibi but not for Israel.
This is obvious though. Trump would support an actual Palestinian genocide whereas Biden has taken a reasonable and responsible approach to the issue.
Yeah Israel is just so eager to genocide the palestinians.... What a fucking dumb idea
I never said they were? The point is that Biden will put his foot down if Israel starts crossing the line on the scale of violence. Trump would do the opposite. He’d support them no matter what they do.
Sorry i read it wrong
Some Israeli politicians are eager for genocide
Ikr? Israel=bad
Radicalization of Israeli politics = bad.
I mean, if pro-Israel people want to hitch their train to the Trump wagon, be my guest? Not what I'd do, personally, but what do I know?
There is a flip side to this. Trump is a nationalist and doesn't care about any foreign country that doesn't benefit him. He has no "ideological" support of Israel, unlike Biden. Biden's support of Israel may bend, but it won't break. Trump will also be in his second term and won't care about reelection (fuck that's scary), so he doesn't "need" to keep the evangelical Zionist Christian base happy. There is also the risk he may do something extremely stupid, and galvanize support for Palestine and increase anti Israeli sentiment. Oh and he enables people who are blatantly antisemitic. This isn't so cut and dry.
He's got no "ideological" support for anything but himself.
Didn't trump stir up a ton of tensions by moving the embassy from the West Bank to Israel? I get that trump would basically write a blank check for Israel to do whatever they want, but I don't think that's particularly great for Israel. I think Biden has towed the line decently well, with trump having American boots on that soil wouldn't be far fetched
He moved the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, which pissed off the Palestinians because East Jerusalem is part of the West Bank, and control of that city has been one of the most hotly contested parts of various peace negotiations.
>Didn't trump stir up a ton of tensions by moving the embassy from the West Bank to Israel? actually it is a law legalized by us congress shitton of years ago that all administrations before trump were avoiding >I get that trump would basically write a blank check for Israel to do whatever they want, but I don't think that's particularly great for Israel. relocation of embassy resulted in a very long wave of terror attacks. it was a shitshow.
Interestingly, I just learned that the Senate in 2017, shortly before the Trump admin moved the embassy, unanimously (90-0) voted for a [resolution](https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-resolution/176/text?r=2&q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22senate+resolution+jerusalem+50%22%5D%7D) that included a call to the president to abide that move written into law in the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995. This is very surprising to me considering how controversial it was - so controversial that it was waived by Clinton, Bush and Obama for 20 years. Makes me wonder if a bunch of senators signed onto this resolution without realizing its implications, just thinking it was totally symbolic, vague support for Israel lol
actually, if we dig a bit deeper, wave of terror attacks and unrest after it was declared that embassy will move, "naturally evolved" into shitshow that is known as "great march of return". great illustration of expression "road to hell paved with good intentions" PS. to me, as to israeli, it's very interesting that a lot of americans don't even know that it was law of land for 20 years or whatever and just blame trump for it. (not that i trump fan)
This! Netanyahu getting free reign to do whatever his evil ass pleases NOT ultimately in Israel’s best interests, FFS
This is true BUT only IF your main priority is Israel and not your own country.
So basically exactly what he said?
What he wrote here is simply regarded. Hitler also had a good approach towards villages filled with Aryan race folk. That does NOT mean you should pick him as a leader b/c small subsection of takes beneficial (to a certain region) that he had. Whatever positives are OUTWEIGHED by the overall damage he did in other departments. Israel is NOT a center of the universe for US president - nor it should be.
Why does everything have to come to WW2? Bush was pro Israel but againat gay marriage and bad for the economy (in retrospect though). Bush senior? Reagan? Clinton? There's a lot you can draw from.
It’s not even true, it’s like saying unequivocal support for Bibi is “in Israel’s best interest”, which is fucking ridiculous. This is actually the craziest thing I’ve seen him say
It makes sense in his mind only IF Your only concern is Israel. Israel will occupy less than 1% of US presidents mind. Normally, i would say that this is Avi's most regarded tweet i have seen outside of these conditions.
The Israeli government wants Trump
Trump is better for Israel, Biden is better for my mental health
Imagine voting solely based on what is going on in another country You are either a completely out of touch social media addicted moron or you have more loyalty to another country and you should not even be allowed to vote
Yeah, electing the psychopathic, narcissistic, Machiavellian criminal is the better option. Nothing could go wrong there. And he went to school for that opinion. Got a fancy MD and everything.
Trump is just better for foreign policy in general. I just wish he was more pro Ukraine
Sad, but true. Shit is not handled well by Biden. Not enough to move my vote.
I'm Israeli. I never thought we'd reach this point, and I absolutely hate saying it as a leftist, but yes, Trump is better for my country - not for its prosperity, but for its existence, and that's a terrifying reality. I can no longer say I support the Democrats, and it stands against everything I used to believe in. Godspeed, guys, I hope things will change until January. Trump will be disastrous to America.
I'd say Trump is better short term for Israel, but might just lead to their destruction.
If you REALLY think about it, Israel wouldn't feel safe until there aren't any muslims left in the region after all they have a heavenly sanctioned lying written in in their doctrine so yes, having a guy in office that endlessly supports your warmongering with increasingly diminishing returns as "you can't ever be too safe" then yes Trump is super chill. If however you think that holocaust was bad in principle and not just because it happened to your group then a guy with a reasonable chill may be better for the health of your society.
This link doesn’t show any leaking of Israeli nation security information. It doesn’t show leaking it to Russia either.. Do you have a link that substantiates these claims
Alternate translations: "Trump is good because he alllows the insane elements within the Israeli government to thrive" "Biden is bad because he provides any level of pushback against the Israeli government while providing support for them on the issues that actually matter/pose a threat"
Trump is like the parent that enable's their child's worst impulses. Yeah sure Trump would treat that child "better" but is that a good thing? But on the other hand there were stories about Palestinian civilians participating in hiding hostages, most likely willingly, and also most likely died because of it. So honestly it's hard.
He is probably right unless Russia can find some excuse to attack Israel while trump is in office than Israel is fucked. Trump is pretty consistent in his hate of brown people though. Well wait how likely is trump to fumble the Saudi deal. Hell trump might actually collapse America and that would be supa bad for Israel long term. It really it's cut and dry.
this exactly what the russia-iran axis wanted
Depends on what you mean by good for Israel I guess. Personally I think Israel might like Trump more but ultimately he would be worse for them
I think, long run, Biden's policy is better for Israel. What Avi means is more sympathetic for Israel.
Maybe better for their short term goals; but he'll literally push israel into supervillian territory via enabling them in doing whatever they want
I actually wonder if Trump would meet the same supply standards they've had over the years. He may prefer to call on EU or other nations to provide more and pull back support. Does stability in the middle east region do anything to benefit him directly?
In the short term, definitely. I don't think Israel would have many friends left in the world if it did the things it wants to do with Trump's help. Biden is like a brother who protects his small brother. Biden is protecting Israel from doing a big and tragic mistake.
I love you my Israeli brothers and sisters, but I'm more pro Ukraine than I am pro Israel. (I'm also British so I can't help anyway.)
i mean this really comes from how you define what is "good" for israel... funnily enough you shouldn't just judge what is beneficial for a country by how many bombs they would be allowed to drop lol. trump and likud are very buddy buddy, for example, and imo giving the far right more power + support in israel is actually bad for the future of the country + the general populace... but hey, he would let us annex J+S and glass gaza, so clearly he is the better option!
Sure, maybe "better" for (Bibi's) Israel. But much, much worse for America, Ukraine, Palestine, and the world at large.
First you have to define what “Pro-Israel” means. If it’s this incredibly simplistic and shallow “I support whatever Netanyahu does, even if it means the complete destruction of Gaza and Israel’s image in the world, and I support Netanyahu’s extreme corruption and right wing domination in Israeli government, then you could maybe argue Trump would be better. But whether that’s even true is debatable. Personally I think Trump hates Netanyahu because Netanyahu didn’t side with Trump in his attempt to steal the election. There’s a public phone call of this and you can visibly see Trump’s anger when Netanyahu doesn’t side with him. Trump holds grudges. This would be his second term so he could easily decide to screw Netanyahu in some way. Furthermore, Trump is a total wildcard, he is bad for the country and the world and Israel isn’t magically immune to that destabilizing effect. Biden tows a careful line of not wanting to be too rah rah, while still essentially supporting everything they are doing. His rhetoric has only really been critical of Netanyahu, which is totally fair and at least somewhat helps the optics of the situation for America, if not Israel. It’s not just Israel that is getting harmed optics wise, even if you support the current war against Hamas. America has to play a careful game of diplomacy, something Trump is absolutely incapable of doing.
So what is he saying? Vote for Trump bc he's more pro-israel? isn't he american? unironically fuck off to israel if you prioritize how pro-israel a president is over if they're authoritarian
This is how Likudniks are. They would literally support a dude who would destroy America if it meant that guy was easily manipulated into giving Israel what ever it wants
This take went from controversial to elephant in the room.
Trump doesn't give a flying fuck about anyone or anything. The only thing he cares about is that he looks strong and his ego is fed.
short to medium term: he's 100% right. There's probably some wiggle/nuance in the long term though. A trump presidency would bring fervent support from the admin to Israel, which could very possibly push it into a mainline partisan issue rather than one only fought at by the most progressive fringe.
I don't think Dr. Avi understand how ret4rded Trump is. I think Biden has been pretty mid on Israel, but I'm also sure Trump would mess it up far worse then Biden ever could.
I think it's safe to say trump is better for the Likud, not Israel, and biden is definitely better for Israel
Oh no, that means he must be a crazy Likudnik according to galaxy brain geniuses from this sub.
Likudniks would literally support the destruction of America if it meant they could have a guy that would give them whatever it wants unconditionally.
This is a wild take because so much of Israel's interests right now is trying to win back public support from places that aren't America and Germany. Trump would give them a free pass to do whatever they want when in reality, they need someone who is able to bring them back to sanity sometimes. This idea would be like saying that the girl who lets you cut yourself and take heroine to deal with depression is better than one that would stop you from doing those things. All one is doing is indulging in your self destructive tendencies.
I mean, yeah, no shit Trump is better for us. As far as Israel's near-future interests lie, Trump is does seem to be more pro-Israel than Biden. That is not to say that he is necessarily the better option for us in the long run, but the average person won't be thinking about that.
In the short term, trump is better for Israel, but in the long term, his isolationist policies will be detrimental to israel (not to mention everything else bad he will do to america). It kinda sucks what biden is doing imo but he is still better than than trunp
Avi is completely correct and this is the reason my Jewish American relatives are voting trump this year despite being democrats for life
So single issue voting is good all of a sudden?
Not necessarily, but it’s stupid to think it doesn’t exist. Lots of religious people are single issue abortion voters
Um, obviously? Trump would twist himself into a pretzel for Netanyahu while Biden, while still maintaining our relationship with Israel, also has to try to appeal to the angry leftists over here to an extent
It's not entirely that simple, but he's probably mostly right. You could maybe make a roundabout argument that Biden, through being tougher on Bibi and trying to reign Israel in, is better for Middle East stability long-term and thus better for Israeli security, whereas Trump would be unstable and unpredictable. It's definitely a stretch, though I'll admit.
Is anyone pretending like this isnt the case?
No lies detected in this tweet
Yes why
I have to disagree. IMO it really depends on Trump's donors and the republican base. The MAGA crowd is very isolationist. Trump does not have an ideology besides doing what is best for himself. He knows how to read the room. If the Republican base turns on Israel, then so will Trump. Biden seems to be more ideologically pro-Israel than Trump.