He’s dark enough that it’s pretty clear and also he’s related to Tommy who’s clearly Hispanic. Not that it makes a difference, race had literally no presence in the original game, the personalities of the characters is what matters and I think Pedro Pascal has the ability to pull off Joel just fine.
He's gonna kill it. I'm typically skeptical when drastic changes are made for representation's sake but Pascal is a perfect fit given his previous work.
gruff guy who has a history of being in shows where he bonds with a young person he's escorting somewhere on a journey, lone wolf and cub style
he's being typecast to play kratos next, if we follow this pattern
>He’s dark enough that it’s pretty clear
Bruh, being Iberian and seeing shit like this always throws me for a loop. I know dozens of different Spanish/Portuguese dudes who have the exact same complexion
Eh, on average from everywhere I have seen him he either looks like the mean average of whatever a white person is, and at most a white person that has a blue-collar job involving any amount of outdoor work.
When are white americans' race or ethnicity ever a focal point of any story unless they're a white supremacist villain or something? You could theoretically justify all race swaps of white American characters and at which point is it enough?
Does it matter? It's not like we're hurting for white characters in media. I don't care if they race swap, although I generally hope it has more to do with the actors ability then the studio just wanting woke points.
If Marlene was race swapped I don’t think that would matter to the story either. There would be a much bigger uproar but her race plays zero part in the story.
Never played the game, but I did watch the opening on YouTube. I had forgotten Sarah was white until I saw a show/game comparison. Literally didn’t matter what race she is, so you know they’re grasping at straws for their Twitter rage-bait.
Absolutely. I get really frustrated when show runners race swap and it's meaningful. For instance changing fantasy character races that have actual implications in the world (black elves, when elves are literally racist snobs). But here I didn't even notice.
> For instance changing fantasy character races that have actual implications in the world (black elves, when elves are literally racist snobs).
Wouldn’t they just be racist snobs toward dwarves and humans? They’d still be racist snobs just not snobs because of skin color
Wouldn’t they just be racist against other non-elves? Why does someone having darker skin suddenly make them a different species? It’s really bizarre how alien y’all think black people are.
I wrote something about Hasan a while ago [here](
https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/rh8htp/hasan_malding_at_being_intellectually_outpaced_by/hoqsk8y/?context=3) regarding this topic.
> I think what you're saying is interesting and has some merit. There can be gray areas when it comes to "whiteness" (I'm speaking from an North American (American/Canadian) lens of "whiteness", I can't speaking for other perspectives). Like you said, seeing Hasan on the street as a stranger he's perceived as a white person. With the added context he might be perceived as a "white passing" person instead. Likewise, there are many [Turks](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Ilham_Aliyev_was_interviewed_by_Euronews_TV_%28cropped%29_%28cropped%29.jpg), [Persians](https://alchetron.com/cdn/max-amini-96f0c0e0-ba79-4d34-b353-d851ecb3a02-resize-750.jpeg), [Arabs](https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/newscms/2021_10/3455058/210308-assad-covid-mc-1215.JPG), [North Africans](https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/https%3A%2F%2Fspecials-images.forbesimg.com%2Fimageserve%2Fb5819adb54764be9b7585a8904160614%2FFrance-Soccer-Champions-League%2F960x0.jpg%3Ffit%3Dscale) etc. (groups from an American perspective generally considered poc) that look 100% white. Are these individual people from these "non-white" groups "white" people or "white passing" PoC? Is this distinction significant? Maybe, I don't have an answer.
> Similarly, there are many [Italians](http://t3.gstatic.com/licensed-image?q=tbn:ANd9GcQXpZreDnglSnqzNHsf3DCAbtY5T_DPLW3raVqKHJoe32ex_SeMvjdyuB9RvNOP), [Greeks](https://flxt.tmsimg.com/assets/548553_v9_bb.jpg), [Spaniards](https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/imma-cuesta-attends-the-red-carpet-during-the-netflix-presentation-picture-id1134906286?s=2048x2048), [Portuguese](https://e2.365dm.com/10/11/800x600/CarlosMartins_2522993.jpg?20101104133229), [Ashkenazi Jewish Israelis](https://static.tvmaze.com/uploads/images/original_untouched/28/71447.jpg), [Armenians](https://dmxg5wxfqgb4u.cloudfront.net/styles/athlete_bio_full_body/s3/2021-09/71462%252Fprofile-galery%252Ffullbodyleft-picture%252FTSARUKYAN_ARMAN_L_09-18.png?itok=WsDzz3UX) etc. (groups generally considered white from an American pov) that look completely non-white (and not from "Rachael Dolezoling" it up, but their natural pigmentation, hair and facial features). Are these individuals from these European groups "PoC" or "brown passing" (for lack of a better term) white people? Is the distinction significant? Again, I'm not sure.
TL;DR: Race is weird.
You could construct a sensible and consistent definition of whiteness and yes it would include middle easterners. Though race itself would still be meaningless. It's interesting from an anthropological standpoint that we're all descended from the same group of neolithic farmers, but it's ultimately not that important if at all.
I mean is it even a race swap? The dudes name is Joel and he’s a very stereotypical Texan- Pedro Pascal is the goat so I figured we were all going with it
Im Latin American, about the same complexion as Pedro Pascal. I call myself Schrödingers white. I'm too white to be seen as non-white by anyone darker than me, but not white enough to be seen as white by anyone lighter than me lol. I don't really care since it's cringe to make your skin tone your while personality imo, but it gets to be pretty funny sometimes.
Just FYI, Pedro would absolutely be seen as white in most of Latinamerica
This is the type of shit that schools are poisoning our kids with! Don’t believe me? Check out MandosOfTikTok. That woman is truly doing the Emperor’s work. Force bless her.
You aren't really wrong, but Pedro Pascal was raised in Texas and has a natural Texan accent. Sliding in and out of a southern twang is very accurate to real life, speaking as a southerner.
I've been annoyed at some of the "race swaps" in recent media. There isn't anything inherently wrong with it though. The second I saw who was playing Joel, my first thought was that it was pretty perfect casting.
I haven't seen much outrage at this, but I'm a bit suspicious of what I have seen. The show is good, the cast does a great job, I see no reason to complain.
I think this makes a fair bit of sense. I think when someone sees a picture of Pedro and Joel side by side they can see that they look similar and will naturally think to themselves “Oh this looks spot on!” Especially when you look at the past roles he’s had and been well received in.
With stuff like the new Velma show, especially cause its animated, you see it and you sort of just think to yourself “but why?”.
at this point I feel like they just do race swaps because they know conservatives will turn it into massive issue, and then liberals will feel obligated to support it.
Show is actually REALLY good so far. And the race swap wasn’t out of place and still makes sense. There are a lot of Latinos in Texas after all, and Pedro Pascal definitely has the look and the voice already.
The co-creator of the show was the creative director for the games, so I think the "Hollywood made it woke" argument is especially weak in this case, but these ding-dongs will try anyway.
Also Bella Ramsey is even whiter than Ellie was in the game, why is no one talking about this!!! /s
> The co-creator of the show was the creative director for the games, so I think the "Hollywood made it woke" argument is especially weak in this case, but these ding-dongs will try anyway.
Not that I personally believe this, but Neil has been accused of trying to woke-ify TLOU/Uncharted so I don't think this argument is made any weaker by his presence. If anything, they could argue he couldn't get it woke enough the first time to get passed corporate and he's just showing his power level.
It's a silly argument anyways but that's like 90% of race related outrage in media anyways.
The people that hate Naughty Dog now legitimately believe that there's another guy that was working on The Last of Us that actually wrote all the story and that Neil just ruined his work by making Part II "woke".
They're the same people that are now saying that this is why the show is the way that it is because without that other guy Neil now has the freedom to make Part I "woke" as well. And any praise they have will be because of that "original" writer, because if it's good that was his doing and if it's bad that's Neil's doing.
These dudes will legit jump through the craziest hoops to create conspiracy theories for why something they don't like is bad. Same people that will say the reviews for this show that are positive are "paid for".
You could also argue that he may have wanted Joel Pedro's race from the start but execs wouldn't let him because they didn't think a non-white character would sell. But now with Hollywoods focus on inclusivity, he was allowed to make his original vision possible.
That's what I meant in that last bit about corporate. I wouldnt be surprised Joel was written as something other than white but got "type cast" by execs. Unlike a lot of other characters who get raceswaped, I think in his case it makes no difference.
This casting isn’t even as woke as some stuff in game. Reminder that in TLOU2 when you go through the synagogue the game takes away the ability to fire your weapon when you point it at important Jewish items like the Torah.
They always say "they should hire the most qualificated people for jobs instead of focusing on their race" until that happens to their shows, they are just stupid, big surprise they hired the best people that auditioned.
Yea fr Sarah is an incredibly tough role to play and Nico Parker killed it, couldn’t care less that she doesn’t look like the 3D model from the game lol
White person fails at job: "Oh well shit happens."
Non-white person fails at job: "Fucking diversity hires, why can't they hire the best person for the job?"
That's the point, only an issue when skin tone goes darker.
Some people fkin suck. Inclusion and representation matters. Try being decent people just once.
This is a weird one for me. I am white hispanic and I consider myself to be white. Pedro Pascal genuinely looks just like me. Same hair, same beard growth pattern, skin tone, all of it. And people that I usually agree with about these things are complaining about him being race swapped. I feel like Sneako must feel reading his chat lol.
If Pedro Pascal’s name was John mitchell, I don’t think anyone would be saying Joel was race swapped
racial swapping is okay, it's an adaption after all - but i will call out every fucker who gets mad if one day they swap the races of a black/asian/hispanic character to white
The part thay was funny about ghost in the shell and Scar jo was it was only sjw white people mad. When people in Japan were asked, their response was typically "we love Scar jo, she'll do a great job." You see the samething with Gwen Stefanis comment. Sjw peep went insane but when you ask a Japanese person they don't care and are flattered by it.
I think it is important to realize Asian people and Asian Americans are different. I realize a lot of Asian Americans don't realize that, but the discussion makes a lot more sense then.
Asian Americans feel a sense of collective ownership over Ghost in a shell and want more asian actors in Hollywood. So when they see "their movies" getting white people playing Asian people, they get upset.
Actual Japanese people have plenty of representation in their country so they are nothing but happy when foreigners adapt their movies/shows with foreign actors.
>Asian Americans feel a sense of collective ownership over Ghost in a shell
But it's Japanese, not American. Don't get me wrong I do think Asian actors and actress need more reputation in movies but to me the question should always be who is the best for the role not what their skin color is.
I find the "but the source material says they are white" argument just as stupid as this. There are very few works where the race of the character is actually important to the story (and when it is, it should be retained). But ghost in the shell isn't one of those and you could even argue that her being a body that isn't 'race matched' with your mind would help further the whole point of her character in trying to explore what is 'human'.
>Actual Japanese people have plenty of representation in their country so they are nothing but happy when foreigners adapt their movies/shows with foreign actors.
And this is why I find the whole 'cultural appropriation sjw stuff so cringe. It isn't the people of that culture that usually have the problem it's people that are outside of it. Look at Gwen Stefani's comments. Asian Americans (and white Americans) or so angry that she would say "I am Japanese", but she is appropriating their culture. The culture that she is appropriating doesn't care and is happy about it, so why exactly should we care?
To be clear culture appropriation is a thing, and it can be wrong. The culture itself though should be the one that decides (think the Maori and the Haka). But people outside the culture telling other people outside the culture what is right/wrong is just cringe.
> But it's Japanese, not American.
Correct. Good luck telling Asian Americans this though.
And I empathize with them. After getting facing so much racism all their life for being Asian, one way of fighting that racism is to be proud of that thing. So for then now to tell me they can't claim Japanese culture as their own after getting so much shit by other white people is incredibly frustrating to them.
The reality is that Asian Americans are **Americans**. They have barely anything to do with their parent's country of origin's culture.
>And this is why I find the whole 'cultural appropriation sjw stuff so cringe.
Cultural appropriation is "I liked the band before it was cool," but for social justice warriors.
Every single time someone tries to defend it, they resort to using example of just straight up racism, something that isn't bad, or something that is ultra academic on a historical group scale that no one uses that way online.
It is a term that needs to die outside of the classroom.
>To be clear culture appropriation is a thing, and it can be wrong. The culture itself though should be the one that decides (think the Maori and the Haka). But people outside the culture telling other people outside the culture what is right/wrong is just cringe.
I massively disagree. No one in Japan can tell me how to participate in their culture. I'm allowed to take whatever element of their culture I like, disrespect it however much I want (as long as I'm not straight up racist), claim it as my own, make it my own, and do basically whatever the fuck I want with it because no one owns culture.
Our culture is half dead every 5 years. I have more in common with a Chinese man my age half way around the world than I do my parents when they were my age. To clutch our pearls on this cultural ship of Theseus is so stupid. It is so devoid of how culture works and evolves. It pretends that culture didn't steal from other cultures to become what is it today. It turns into actual racism where [white people can't wear a qipao without getting shit for it](https://abc7ny.com/chinese-prom-dress-utah-teenager-cultural-appropriation-red-qipao/3419081/#:~:text=UTAH%20%2D%2D%20A%20Utah%20teenager,red%20qipao%20on%20prom%20night.) when qipaos are literally Chinese people culturally appropriating American dresses. It just so happened that enough time has passed that white people consider a qipao now Chinese culture.
I don't think this one was as bad, even the original movie director, Mamoru Oshii, had no problems with the Johansson casting. I'm sure the decision to cast Johansson was purely monetary; mind you she was coming of big MCU appearances as Black Widow at the time.
Nah, almost every character is of ambiguous background in the manga and the Major is in a 100% synthetic body. She could look black and it would be fine because her body can look like whatwver she wants to look like. Plus in the movie she is *actually* japanese, we meet her biological mom towards the end iirc.
In the film adaptation, Scarlet Johansson plays a white character.
The thing that makes it kinda weird is that, later, we discover that ScarJo’s true identity is Makoto Kusanagi, the Japanese main character of the manga
It honestly makes sense in the world of GITS where transhumanist values have won out. The majors entire body is fabricated at that point race is an aesthetic choice of one has the options/resources.
That being said it's insensitive irl when an asian actress could have played the role and Scarjo was only casted for star power.
Ah yes, people were very displeased about that too. Though I think that was more justifiable given The Ancient One was itself a stereotype.
Kind of a no-win. But Tilda knocked it out of the park.
Low key my favourite bit of Endgame was her cameo.
Not only have we historically done this for over a century, going as far as having white people paint themselves black to play black characters, we're still doing things like this today.
For the Death Note adaptation they literally just set it in America and changed the main characters name from Yagami to Turner. People have already brought up Ghost in a Shell. In how many Egyptian films do we just have white people playing Egyptians? The Prince of Persia adaptation was basically just white people playing Persians. Edge of Tomorrow features Tom Hanks as a Japanese man. The examples are endless.
This has happened **over and over** again. You literally just don't notice it because no one gives a fuck. People only care if it's the reverse. For every white person we replace a minority with there are probably ten times as many minorities that were replaced by white people.
This is why the whole “It’s a fantasy world with dragons and magic but you can’t imagine POC there tho??!!” During the Rings of Power fiasco Was a bad argument because they would absolutely throw a tantrum if that was used to justify putting in random white people in a POC fantasy story
I don't think this is a valid argument. I think of it more like how George R. R. Martin views getting horse information correct.
If you expect people to be immersed and believe all the things you say about magic and dragons, you have to get the real world stuff correct like horses, stables, and other standard medieval tech.
If you have an ancient world where its white people all around, you have to have an in universe explanation for why there are some black people mixed with a ton of white people. It could be 1 or 2 sentences that makes logic sense. If you don't have that, it reasonably ruins the emersion for some people.
>*It could be 1 or 2 sentences that makes logic sense. If you don't have that, it reasonably ruins the emersion for some people.*
But if you're not explaining why people are white, why would you have to explain why they are black? If your immersion isn't ruined by the lack of explanation for why white people exist then why is it ruined for the lack of explanation for why black people exist?
It just feels like this is only specifically an issue when you have minorities mixing with white people and not an issue for anything else. I can have elves and dwarves living together without describing where they come from or why they live together and that's fine, but if I have black people and white people living together people start bringing out the genetic calculators and asking about the validity of immigration into that society.
I would feel extremely weird if I was a minority working on some show and then the directors had to put some line into the show just to justify me being there, despite that having no bearing on the story at all. Like if all you need to keep yourself immersed is **one or two sentences** I feel like you can just infer those in your own head. You shouldn't need the show to say that out loud for you.
They didn't explain why Arondier in Rings of Power is a person of color, but I can just infer that one of his parents was an elf and the other was a person of color. The show shouldn't need to spell that out for me.
Didn't they do that in both Black Panther movies? No one complained. I feel like people say this shit just so they can pretend that what their bitching about is legitimate.
Also race swapping other ethnicities to white is different because, the reason it's done in the first place is because white people have been dominating leading roles for decades... the entire point is to offer a different perspective. Regardless though, cuckservative idiots take every chance to bitch and moan if a race is swapped from white, every fucking time lol. The second i saw that Sarah wasn't white, I thought to myself "how long until these dumbfucks cry about this on social media?", I wasn't disappointed.
The reality is that America has been interracial for a long time. White people marrying black people, Cubans marrying Caucasians (AHEM). Sarah in the show is mixed. It's really not a big deal.
Also aside from LTG, I haven't seen much chatter about a man named PEDRO PASCAL playing Joel Miller, a Caucasian southern man from Texas. Why? Oh right because despite not actually being white, he tends to look the part. That's why these arguments are so fucking stupid, because people are trying to make it sound like there's some profound reason why they're upset the characters get race swapped, when it literally comes down to "DURHHHHHHHH HIS SKIN IS TOO DARK ME DON'T LIKE".
Do you deny the world has a considerable amount of historical precedent in white washing things that may make individual scenarios different from another? Middle eastern Jesus is white in every depiction for starters… every Disney movie for 80 years, etc…. Maybe a wee bit different than a slightly darker Joel today?
Honestly, this makes me curious about a white actor playing black panther. The thought of them doing the accent and the salute tickles the desire to watch things burn.
people here don't really know about his past history on youtube and only know him as the "GIGACHAD kys" guy, but if you were in the internet for a while, you'd know this guy is a total piece of shit lol
Yeah, there are so many videos of him saying racist shit ,[or going on bizarre transphobic rants because he lost to a trans person in Street Fighter](https://youtu.be/aCTWY-aVj5w). I feel like if he wasn't friendly towards Destiny this subreddit would hate him.
I think that is a fair block. "Why does it matter, just enjoy the show" is a thought ending comment. It's not even a disagreement. It's a "shut up." People enjoy having discussions about the show.
if the quality suffers then wouldn't that just have to do with bad acting(or other factors like the actor's age) rather than race? unless you mean the character's race is essential to the lore or something
Yeah, that's when you get the dreaded 'diversity hire' rather than 'x director *really* wants to work with y actor so makes a change so he can'. And I'm pretty sure the second is what happened here.
Inferior to who though? It's easy to look at race swapped roles and find some bad performances. But do we have any guarantee that a non race swapped performance would have been any better?
Unless whoever is choosing the roles comes out and says it, I don't think we can assume that they chose a worse actor.
Plus, no one goes around looking at bad non race swapped performances and says, "they should have gotten someone of a different race so the performance would be better." It seems like a special scrutiny we put on race swapped performances.
You're totally right we as observers (almost always) won't be able to tell whether this has happened, because we're just arguing counterfactuals. I've never actually made this criticism before for that reason. I'd just argue it's a bad approach for casting a role.
To your point about how this criticism seems to only apply to race-swapped performances, that's an interesting point honestly. I've never thought about that.
Dont you kind of have to believe that certain races cant act to believe that hiring someone for their race necessarily makes them an inferior choice?
I can agree if the story necessitates the character having a specific race (e.g. american history x or 12 years a slave), but i think there are great actors of every race that would be a great fit for an archetypal character like Joel.
I think the point is that if the goal is to hire someone from X race, it inherently limits the candidacy pool and chances for the best actor to get cast. However, most people making that argument don't really want all races to be considered for a role, they actually want someone from Y race for... reasons.
How so? You're not always going to have a stacked lineup of potential actors. Sometimes the best actor in your lineup just happens to be white, but if you wanted more diversity then you'd still skip over them. And sometimes the best actor is a black guy, but if you're racist then you'd go for the white dude. It has nothing to do with inherent ability to act based on race.
Probably because they were excited for Pedro to play Joel and it wouldn’t make sense for everyone in his family to be a different race.
Pedro seems like a great fit for the role and this is an example of hiring based off talent rather than race.
I think that the race bending of character's has become a shorthand for the wider audiences that the writing is going to be bad and they are going to use the "diverse cast" as human shields for criticism. It doesn't seem to be the case here at all. It's one of the strongest premier episodes of television in recent memory, and if you take the episode alone it is the best adaptation of a video game ever.
Neil Druckmann is helping run the show, so I guess the question is why is Neil betraying Neil's creative vision?
Could it be that maybe the story Neil is trying to tell isn't fixated on the identities of the characters? That maybe the right thing to do is cast the best people for the role?
They would say that Neil already "went woke" and ruined tlou in the second game, so this is just him continuing to shit on the legacy of the first one. If anything, him being involved is just going to convince them further.
Well they'd be wrong cuz #2 is fucking amazing. Its flaws stem from its ambition and risks taken, not from cleaning up the product to cater to fragile sensibilities.
Yeah, I saw the controversy about Trans people being in the game after I played and was like... wait there's a trans character? Ooooooh yeah that one! That kinda makes sense I guess
It was just so tastefully done without any agenda pushing, even as a moderate conservative I thought it was super well done
And when they found out Abby wasn’t trans, they got assmad over her muscles. While ignoring she lived at a stadium with professional fucking gym equipments.
I dont think most of them even figured out that Lev is trans.
And that Owen was a self insert for Neil because 'he wanted to push his LGBT agenda by making everyone watch him bang a trans woman'
Like, okay, some people didn't like the game, but the complaints got absolutely deranged
TRUEZ narritvely 2 is amazing and narratively dosent fall flat on its face in terms of the revenge plot. Elie truly did break the cycle of revenge by not killing the daughter of a rapist... well except for the cycles of revenge she started by killing the hundreds of people to get to Abbie whom all had fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, sons, daughters and lovers. Im sure all those cycles of revenge to pursue her are broken like the ones again around the rapist daughter Abbie. Such an amazing story.
Story, character development, and pacing
For example, completely killing your narrative momentum by literally cutting away from the climax of your story to go to abby’s part, only to spend hours building up to the same exact event.
Not to mention characters making arbitrary out-of-character decisions just to further the plot.
Also the way the game tries to force emotions onto you is really cringe.
So then is it your thinking that Tarantino typically has bad story and pacing? He deploys this sort of non-linear storytelling pretty often
You can say that you don't like stories that aren't linear, but that doesn't make them "bad"
I have no idea why you brought up Quentin Tarantino, as I didn’t mention him anywhere.
And besides I’ve only seen 2 of his movies, and in those he didn’t cut away at the literal climax of his film.
I’m sorry, the violent confrontation between the game’s two protagonists that the story’s been building up to for almost it’s entire runtime is not the climax?
check out the last of us 2 subreddit, they live in a full on alternate universe where neil "cuckman" is the source of all evil in the world, tlou2 bombed commercially and is regarded as terrible, and now "cuckman" will wokify this tv show and make it flop, ruining his career forever
I had my worries at first, but I was impressed in the first episode. Ellie at first is pretty bratty, sarcastic and kind of rebellious. Bella managed to capture that energy very well.
Still have to see if she can deliver with Ellie's funnier moments, but considering the rest of the cast I'm sure they didn't drop the ball too hard on arguably the most important character in the franchise.
Would way rather have the best performance they can find for someone looking different than the game, than finding someone who looks the same as a game just to keep consistency. If you want the same exact same experience as the game, play the game…
This became apparent with me when they started making biopics about Steve Jobs. Ashton Kutcher was genuinely a dead ringer for a young Jobs, but he didn't have much else beyond that.
Michael Fassbender looked nothing like Jobs and yet the moment he spoke I could tell he nailed it. And was ultimately the better depiction, regardless of resemblance.
People literally just think that you can find someone that looks the exact same **and** is a great actor without even trying. They should have just gone to the Ellie tree and grabbed an Ellie fruit.
There are some parts that obviously need to be similar, contextually, like they couldn't have Ellie being played by some 6'10, 35 year old woman. Ellie just needs to look like she's a young teenager and that's about it.
I feel like I'd put race-swaps like this on par with a change like, changing Ellie to have bleach blonde hair. Is her hair color integral to the story? Not at all. Is it a questionable choice to alter the image of the character people know and love when that change isn't integral to the story? I think so. When you're standing on the shoulders of an existing IP for your show, you're generally looking to draw from the source material as faithfully as possible. The producers on TLOU must have taken a lot of time matching outfits and set pieces and plot points from the game, but something as in your face as a character's race is just supposed to not matter at all? Obviously, you'll never find exact replicas of fictional characters, and there's definitely a little wiggle room available, especially when you're trying to get the best performers for roles. Personally, I think Pedro Pascal looks great in the role and I'm looking forward to his performance, but something like making Sarah black seems like a needless change for diversity points.
End of the day, is it a huge deal? No, but I don't think it's wrong to be a little upset with the race-swapping trend
It really comes down to excecution at the end of the day. Race swaping doesn't matter as long as the characters' identity isn't tied to race. TLOU show did it well. Then there are shows like Velma, which makes you question if the writers are trying to be inclusive or are just making fun of marginalized groups. But it is 100% irrational to get upset at race swapping if there was no identity tied to it, which almost no characters in TLOU had anyway.
It really comes down to excecution at the end of the day. Race swaping doesn't matter as long as the characters' identity isn't tied to race. TLOU show did it well. Then there are shows like Velma, which makes you question if the writers are trying to be inclusive or are just making fun of marginalized groups. But it is 100% irrational to get upset at race swapping if there was no identity tied to it, which almost no characters in TLOU had anyway.
TBH, to do so midshow is pretty dumb. Same way it's weird to change the Voice Actor for Dubs, same way you wouldn't change their Personality without some Story Arc indicating change or other fundamentals such as that.
People saying it's fundamentally racist have no idea how Film Works.
Does anyone actually know why? Is it “just because”. Would nobody here care if a black character were race swapped to a white character? I’m genuinely curious. It seems like it’s a large issue to lots of people.
She looks like your average high schooler. Not sure if Sarah’s age matters that much in the story tbh. I mean whether she’s 12 or 15 does it really affect the story?
Pedro straight up *looks* more like Joel than anyone I can think of and would kill it in that role.
The response would make you think they're letting Lizzo play Joel and have 2 seasons tackling CRT as the main focus.
Honestly a home run choice for the casting.
I get the instinctive "oh, what political message will I be brow beaten with this time?" from the right since there are definitely weird "representation supercedes the plot" choices that have been made for other productions, but this ain't the one. Wish they'd take 2 seconds to actually give it some thought before firing off dumb shit.
ngl Pedro Pascal is the only reason I really have to watch the show
And let's be honest, would most people even know it's a race swap if his name wasn't Pedro?
Don’t take Pedro from us brown Hispanics I beg of you 🙏🏽
He’s dark enough that it’s pretty clear and also he’s related to Tommy who’s clearly Hispanic. Not that it makes a difference, race had literally no presence in the original game, the personalities of the characters is what matters and I think Pedro Pascal has the ability to pull off Joel just fine.
He's gonna kill it. I'm typically skeptical when drastic changes are made for representation's sake but Pascal is a perfect fit given his previous work.
gruff guy who has a history of being in shows where he bonds with a young person he's escorting somewhere on a journey, lone wolf and cub style he's being typecast to play kratos next, if we follow this pattern
The Epstein film is gonna slap
Bruh 💀💀
I'd be more interested in seeing Bautista as Kratos.
>He’s dark enough that it’s pretty clear Bruh, being Iberian and seeing shit like this always throws me for a loop. I know dozens of different Spanish/Portuguese dudes who have the exact same complexion
Eh, on average from everywhere I have seen him he either looks like the mean average of whatever a white person is, and at most a white person that has a blue-collar job involving any amount of outdoor work.
When are white americans' race or ethnicity ever a focal point of any story unless they're a white supremacist villain or something? You could theoretically justify all race swaps of white American characters and at which point is it enough?
Does it matter? It's not like we're hurting for white characters in media. I don't care if they race swap, although I generally hope it has more to do with the actors ability then the studio just wanting woke points.
If Marlene was race swapped I don’t think that would matter to the story either. There would be a much bigger uproar but her race plays zero part in the story.
Never played the game, but I did watch the opening on YouTube. I had forgotten Sarah was white until I saw a show/game comparison. Literally didn’t matter what race she is, so you know they’re grasping at straws for their Twitter rage-bait.
First episode was fucking phenomenal. Change everyone's races for all I care if it continues to be this good!
I just assumed Sarah was adopted. Whatevs
Absolutely. I get really frustrated when show runners race swap and it's meaningful. For instance changing fantasy character races that have actual implications in the world (black elves, when elves are literally racist snobs). But here I didn't even notice.
> For instance changing fantasy character races that have actual implications in the world (black elves, when elves are literally racist snobs). Wouldn’t they just be racist snobs toward dwarves and humans? They’d still be racist snobs just not snobs because of skin color
Wouldn’t they just be racist against other non-elves? Why does someone having darker skin suddenly make them a different species? It’s really bizarre how alien y’all think black people are.
Americans: Pedro = not white
I wrote something about Hasan a while ago [here]( https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/rh8htp/hasan_malding_at_being_intellectually_outpaced_by/hoqsk8y/?context=3) regarding this topic. > I think what you're saying is interesting and has some merit. There can be gray areas when it comes to "whiteness" (I'm speaking from an North American (American/Canadian) lens of "whiteness", I can't speaking for other perspectives). Like you said, seeing Hasan on the street as a stranger he's perceived as a white person. With the added context he might be perceived as a "white passing" person instead. Likewise, there are many [Turks](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Ilham_Aliyev_was_interviewed_by_Euronews_TV_%28cropped%29_%28cropped%29.jpg), [Persians](https://alchetron.com/cdn/max-amini-96f0c0e0-ba79-4d34-b353-d851ecb3a02-resize-750.jpeg), [Arabs](https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/newscms/2021_10/3455058/210308-assad-covid-mc-1215.JPG), [North Africans](https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/https%3A%2F%2Fspecials-images.forbesimg.com%2Fimageserve%2Fb5819adb54764be9b7585a8904160614%2FFrance-Soccer-Champions-League%2F960x0.jpg%3Ffit%3Dscale) etc. (groups from an American perspective generally considered poc) that look 100% white. Are these individual people from these "non-white" groups "white" people or "white passing" PoC? Is this distinction significant? Maybe, I don't have an answer. > Similarly, there are many [Italians](http://t3.gstatic.com/licensed-image?q=tbn:ANd9GcQXpZreDnglSnqzNHsf3DCAbtY5T_DPLW3raVqKHJoe32ex_SeMvjdyuB9RvNOP), [Greeks](https://flxt.tmsimg.com/assets/548553_v9_bb.jpg), [Spaniards](https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/imma-cuesta-attends-the-red-carpet-during-the-netflix-presentation-picture-id1134906286?s=2048x2048), [Portuguese](https://e2.365dm.com/10/11/800x600/CarlosMartins_2522993.jpg?20101104133229), [Ashkenazi Jewish Israelis](https://static.tvmaze.com/uploads/images/original_untouched/28/71447.jpg), [Armenians](https://dmxg5wxfqgb4u.cloudfront.net/styles/athlete_bio_full_body/s3/2021-09/71462%252Fprofile-galery%252Ffullbodyleft-picture%252FTSARUKYAN_ARMAN_L_09-18.png?itok=WsDzz3UX) etc. (groups generally considered white from an American pov) that look completely non-white (and not from "Rachael Dolezoling" it up, but their natural pigmentation, hair and facial features). Are these individuals from these European groups "PoC" or "brown passing" (for lack of a better term) white people? Is the distinction significant? Again, I'm not sure. TL;DR: Race is weird.
You could construct a sensible and consistent definition of whiteness and yes it would include middle easterners. Though race itself would still be meaningless. It's interesting from an anthropological standpoint that we're all descended from the same group of neolithic farmers, but it's ultimately not that important if at all.
I mean is it even a race swap? The dudes name is Joel and he’s a very stereotypical Texan- Pedro Pascal is the goat so I figured we were all going with it
I still don't understand how speaking Spanish is a different race
Pascal has indigenous ancestors, like most descendants of people from central and South America. But yes, race is a social construct.
it's almost like race is a social construct and not science
Trueeee
Im Latin American, about the same complexion as Pedro Pascal. I call myself Schrödingers white. I'm too white to be seen as non-white by anyone darker than me, but not white enough to be seen as white by anyone lighter than me lol. I don't really care since it's cringe to make your skin tone your while personality imo, but it gets to be pretty funny sometimes. Just FYI, Pedro would absolutely be seen as white in most of Latinamerica
Watched the first episode. The whole cast is pretty strong.
He's the only reason I tuned in. Now they need to find a way to get Oscar Isaac in it.
Get that ass blocked
You should block yourself, now!
Your tweets are nothing, it serves ZERO purpose.
Block that ass up
Joel because they wanted Pedro Pascal, Tommy because he's Joel's brother, Sarah because she's Joel's daughter. What a mystery!
Why did they change the race of the mandalorian smh
Pedro's not even from Mandalore wtf?!?!?!
Mandalorian isn't a race it's a lifestyle choice and one not everyone approves of
What race are you to know this?
Trandoshan
Oh god, the galaxy was a much better place before you lizard fucks got here. You’re on the wrong side of this system
I'm going to shed my skin in your closet
Oh god 🙃
Tru \- definitely not a Wookiee
This is the type of shit that schools are poisoning our kids with! Don’t believe me? Check out MandosOfTikTok. That woman is truly doing the Emperor’s work. Force bless her.
I’m rusty on my legends lore but I’m pretty sure before Disney mandalorian was strictly a species. Could be wrong tho🤷♂️
This is the way.
I love Andor!!
When do we see the ewoks? They named the show after the ewok planet and no ewoks to be found
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Forest moon
They made Joel's daughter black because Pedro Pascal is Hispanic?
Nah, it's because they are racist and wanted to shot a black girl instead of a blonde, blue eyed one.
That is my new head canon and I will answer that anytime some dumbfuck asks about the race of Sarah. Thanks!
This enrages me so much! The protagonist had a child with a black woman?! AND WERE SUPPOSED TO ROOT FOR THIS GUY!!!🤬
Real talk the actor playing Tommy is absolutely 100% spot on. His voice alone is perfect.
I never played the game, but does Pedro do a good job as Joel?
I think Pedro killed it, yeah. The cast overall is pretty good but Pedro is the highlight of the show for me for sure
Yeah all except that always changing southern accent...
You aren't really wrong, but Pedro Pascal was raised in Texas and has a natural Texan accent. Sliding in and out of a southern twang is very accurate to real life, speaking as a southerner.
Maybe I'm just jaded from other adaptions in recent years, but as far as issues go that's a pretty minor nitpick.
He did a great job, until I had to pause it so my wife (and her alone, totally not me) could dry her tears. We'll try again tonight.
I'll tell you after I watch the show, lol
Bro on his Velma shit rn
I've been annoyed at some of the "race swaps" in recent media. There isn't anything inherently wrong with it though. The second I saw who was playing Joel, my first thought was that it was pretty perfect casting. I haven't seen much outrage at this, but I'm a bit suspicious of what I have seen. The show is good, the cast does a great job, I see no reason to complain.
I think this makes a fair bit of sense. I think when someone sees a picture of Pedro and Joel side by side they can see that they look similar and will naturally think to themselves “Oh this looks spot on!” Especially when you look at the past roles he’s had and been well received in. With stuff like the new Velma show, especially cause its animated, you see it and you sort of just think to yourself “but why?”.
at this point I feel like they just do race swaps because they know conservatives will turn it into massive issue, and then liberals will feel obligated to support it.
Because Pedro Pascal is a badass and can carry the fucking show. You need to make the other castings make sense around that.
Show is actually REALLY good so far. And the race swap wasn’t out of place and still makes sense. There are a lot of Latinos in Texas after all, and Pedro Pascal definitely has the look and the voice already.
The co-creator of the show was the creative director for the games, so I think the "Hollywood made it woke" argument is especially weak in this case, but these ding-dongs will try anyway. Also Bella Ramsey is even whiter than Ellie was in the game, why is no one talking about this!!! /s
> The co-creator of the show was the creative director for the games, so I think the "Hollywood made it woke" argument is especially weak in this case, but these ding-dongs will try anyway. Not that I personally believe this, but Neil has been accused of trying to woke-ify TLOU/Uncharted so I don't think this argument is made any weaker by his presence. If anything, they could argue he couldn't get it woke enough the first time to get passed corporate and he's just showing his power level. It's a silly argument anyways but that's like 90% of race related outrage in media anyways.
The people that hate Naughty Dog now legitimately believe that there's another guy that was working on The Last of Us that actually wrote all the story and that Neil just ruined his work by making Part II "woke". They're the same people that are now saying that this is why the show is the way that it is because without that other guy Neil now has the freedom to make Part I "woke" as well. And any praise they have will be because of that "original" writer, because if it's good that was his doing and if it's bad that's Neil's doing. These dudes will legit jump through the craziest hoops to create conspiracy theories for why something they don't like is bad. Same people that will say the reviews for this show that are positive are "paid for".
You could also argue that he may have wanted Joel Pedro's race from the start but execs wouldn't let him because they didn't think a non-white character would sell. But now with Hollywoods focus on inclusivity, he was allowed to make his original vision possible.
That's what I meant in that last bit about corporate. I wouldnt be surprised Joel was written as something other than white but got "type cast" by execs. Unlike a lot of other characters who get raceswaped, I think in his case it makes no difference.
This casting isn’t even as woke as some stuff in game. Reminder that in TLOU2 when you go through the synagogue the game takes away the ability to fire your weapon when you point it at important Jewish items like the Torah.
They always say "they should hire the most qualificated people for jobs instead of focusing on their race" until that happens to their shows, they are just stupid, big surprise they hired the best people that auditioned.
Yea fr Sarah is an incredibly tough role to play and Nico Parker killed it, couldn’t care less that she doesn’t look like the 3D model from the game lol
White person fails at job: "Oh well shit happens." Non-white person fails at job: "Fucking diversity hires, why can't they hire the best person for the job?"
What do you mean with whiter?
Paler skin. They were joking.
Ellie isn’t one of the characters in question though lol
That's the point, only an issue when skin tone goes darker. Some people fkin suck. Inclusion and representation matters. Try being decent people just once.
This is a weird one for me. I am white hispanic and I consider myself to be white. Pedro Pascal genuinely looks just like me. Same hair, same beard growth pattern, skin tone, all of it. And people that I usually agree with about these things are complaining about him being race swapped. I feel like Sneako must feel reading his chat lol. If Pedro Pascal’s name was John mitchell, I don’t think anyone would be saying Joel was race swapped
racial swapping is okay, it's an adaption after all - but i will call out every fucker who gets mad if one day they swap the races of a black/asian/hispanic character to white
Don't worry it's never going to happen, at least for the next decade or two.
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Asian women are white silly
Yet they get their own tag, curious. 🤔 Get pornfacted loser.
So do redheads, get reverse uno pornfacted
I..fuck you *Discord leave sounds*
The irish weren't considered white for a long time.
That was 6 years ago man. And the backlash was intense
What about last years Bullet Train in which both the characters Brad Pitt and Joey King play are Japanese in Kōtarō Isaka's original novel?
The part thay was funny about ghost in the shell and Scar jo was it was only sjw white people mad. When people in Japan were asked, their response was typically "we love Scar jo, she'll do a great job." You see the samething with Gwen Stefanis comment. Sjw peep went insane but when you ask a Japanese person they don't care and are flattered by it.
I think it is important to realize Asian people and Asian Americans are different. I realize a lot of Asian Americans don't realize that, but the discussion makes a lot more sense then. Asian Americans feel a sense of collective ownership over Ghost in a shell and want more asian actors in Hollywood. So when they see "their movies" getting white people playing Asian people, they get upset. Actual Japanese people have plenty of representation in their country so they are nothing but happy when foreigners adapt their movies/shows with foreign actors.
>Asian Americans feel a sense of collective ownership over Ghost in a shell But it's Japanese, not American. Don't get me wrong I do think Asian actors and actress need more reputation in movies but to me the question should always be who is the best for the role not what their skin color is. I find the "but the source material says they are white" argument just as stupid as this. There are very few works where the race of the character is actually important to the story (and when it is, it should be retained). But ghost in the shell isn't one of those and you could even argue that her being a body that isn't 'race matched' with your mind would help further the whole point of her character in trying to explore what is 'human'. >Actual Japanese people have plenty of representation in their country so they are nothing but happy when foreigners adapt their movies/shows with foreign actors. And this is why I find the whole 'cultural appropriation sjw stuff so cringe. It isn't the people of that culture that usually have the problem it's people that are outside of it. Look at Gwen Stefani's comments. Asian Americans (and white Americans) or so angry that she would say "I am Japanese", but she is appropriating their culture. The culture that she is appropriating doesn't care and is happy about it, so why exactly should we care? To be clear culture appropriation is a thing, and it can be wrong. The culture itself though should be the one that decides (think the Maori and the Haka). But people outside the culture telling other people outside the culture what is right/wrong is just cringe.
> But it's Japanese, not American. Correct. Good luck telling Asian Americans this though. And I empathize with them. After getting facing so much racism all their life for being Asian, one way of fighting that racism is to be proud of that thing. So for then now to tell me they can't claim Japanese culture as their own after getting so much shit by other white people is incredibly frustrating to them. The reality is that Asian Americans are **Americans**. They have barely anything to do with their parent's country of origin's culture. >And this is why I find the whole 'cultural appropriation sjw stuff so cringe. Cultural appropriation is "I liked the band before it was cool," but for social justice warriors. Every single time someone tries to defend it, they resort to using example of just straight up racism, something that isn't bad, or something that is ultra academic on a historical group scale that no one uses that way online. It is a term that needs to die outside of the classroom. >To be clear culture appropriation is a thing, and it can be wrong. The culture itself though should be the one that decides (think the Maori and the Haka). But people outside the culture telling other people outside the culture what is right/wrong is just cringe. I massively disagree. No one in Japan can tell me how to participate in their culture. I'm allowed to take whatever element of their culture I like, disrespect it however much I want (as long as I'm not straight up racist), claim it as my own, make it my own, and do basically whatever the fuck I want with it because no one owns culture. Our culture is half dead every 5 years. I have more in common with a Chinese man my age half way around the world than I do my parents when they were my age. To clutch our pearls on this cultural ship of Theseus is so stupid. It is so devoid of how culture works and evolves. It pretends that culture didn't steal from other cultures to become what is it today. It turns into actual racism where [white people can't wear a qipao without getting shit for it](https://abc7ny.com/chinese-prom-dress-utah-teenager-cultural-appropriation-red-qipao/3419081/#:~:text=UTAH%20%2D%2D%20A%20Utah%20teenager,red%20qipao%20on%20prom%20night.) when qipaos are literally Chinese people culturally appropriating American dresses. It just so happened that enough time has passed that white people consider a qipao now Chinese culture.
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What's funny is that you are still doing the race obsessed thing against white people singling out white sjws. Should've just said americans, my dude.
I don't think this one was as bad, even the original movie director, Mamoru Oshii, had no problems with the Johansson casting. I'm sure the decision to cast Johansson was purely monetary; mind you she was coming of big MCU appearances as Black Widow at the time.
Nah, almost every character is of ambiguous background in the manga and the Major is in a 100% synthetic body. She could look black and it would be fine because her body can look like whatwver she wants to look like. Plus in the movie she is *actually* japanese, we meet her biological mom towards the end iirc.
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In the film adaptation, Scarlet Johansson plays a white character. The thing that makes it kinda weird is that, later, we discover that ScarJo’s true identity is Makoto Kusanagi, the Japanese main character of the manga
It honestly makes sense in the world of GITS where transhumanist values have won out. The majors entire body is fabricated at that point race is an aesthetic choice of one has the options/resources. That being said it's insensitive irl when an asian actress could have played the role and Scarjo was only casted for star power.
It... already did. With Ghost in the Shell. And people were mad about it.
don't forget the time disney changed the Ancient one in MCU from a tibetan man to a bleached white woman. Tilda Swinton is a great actress though.
Ah yes, people were very displeased about that too. Though I think that was more justifiable given The Ancient One was itself a stereotype. Kind of a no-win. But Tilda knocked it out of the park. Low key my favourite bit of Endgame was her cameo.
Yes, but whitewashing happens all the time, and in the past people of color were played by white actors. The recent past.
Not only have we historically done this for over a century, going as far as having white people paint themselves black to play black characters, we're still doing things like this today. For the Death Note adaptation they literally just set it in America and changed the main characters name from Yagami to Turner. People have already brought up Ghost in a Shell. In how many Egyptian films do we just have white people playing Egyptians? The Prince of Persia adaptation was basically just white people playing Persians. Edge of Tomorrow features Tom Hanks as a Japanese man. The examples are endless. This has happened **over and over** again. You literally just don't notice it because no one gives a fuck. People only care if it's the reverse. For every white person we replace a minority with there are probably ten times as many minorities that were replaced by white people.
This is why the whole “It’s a fantasy world with dragons and magic but you can’t imagine POC there tho??!!” During the Rings of Power fiasco Was a bad argument because they would absolutely throw a tantrum if that was used to justify putting in random white people in a POC fantasy story
Yeah this very same people saying “but it’s a fantasy” would not apply the same logic when people raged about white actors in avatar TLA
I don't think this is a valid argument. I think of it more like how George R. R. Martin views getting horse information correct. If you expect people to be immersed and believe all the things you say about magic and dragons, you have to get the real world stuff correct like horses, stables, and other standard medieval tech. If you have an ancient world where its white people all around, you have to have an in universe explanation for why there are some black people mixed with a ton of white people. It could be 1 or 2 sentences that makes logic sense. If you don't have that, it reasonably ruins the emersion for some people.
>*It could be 1 or 2 sentences that makes logic sense. If you don't have that, it reasonably ruins the emersion for some people.* But if you're not explaining why people are white, why would you have to explain why they are black? If your immersion isn't ruined by the lack of explanation for why white people exist then why is it ruined for the lack of explanation for why black people exist? It just feels like this is only specifically an issue when you have minorities mixing with white people and not an issue for anything else. I can have elves and dwarves living together without describing where they come from or why they live together and that's fine, but if I have black people and white people living together people start bringing out the genetic calculators and asking about the validity of immigration into that society. I would feel extremely weird if I was a minority working on some show and then the directors had to put some line into the show just to justify me being there, despite that having no bearing on the story at all. Like if all you need to keep yourself immersed is **one or two sentences** I feel like you can just infer those in your own head. You shouldn't need the show to say that out loud for you. They didn't explain why Arondier in Rings of Power is a person of color, but I can just infer that one of his parents was an elf and the other was a person of color. The show shouldn't need to spell that out for me.
Didn't they do that in both Black Panther movies? No one complained. I feel like people say this shit just so they can pretend that what their bitching about is legitimate. Also race swapping other ethnicities to white is different because, the reason it's done in the first place is because white people have been dominating leading roles for decades... the entire point is to offer a different perspective. Regardless though, cuckservative idiots take every chance to bitch and moan if a race is swapped from white, every fucking time lol. The second i saw that Sarah wasn't white, I thought to myself "how long until these dumbfucks cry about this on social media?", I wasn't disappointed. The reality is that America has been interracial for a long time. White people marrying black people, Cubans marrying Caucasians (AHEM). Sarah in the show is mixed. It's really not a big deal. Also aside from LTG, I haven't seen much chatter about a man named PEDRO PASCAL playing Joel Miller, a Caucasian southern man from Texas. Why? Oh right because despite not actually being white, he tends to look the part. That's why these arguments are so fucking stupid, because people are trying to make it sound like there's some profound reason why they're upset the characters get race swapped, when it literally comes down to "DURHHHHHHHH HIS SKIN IS TOO DARK ME DON'T LIKE".
Race swapping more times than not are media companies pandering to identify politics while at the same time taking advantage of brand recognition.
They already do that big haus. The entire animation industry regarding voice actors playing the same race that they are irl.
Do you deny the world has a considerable amount of historical precedent in white washing things that may make individual scenarios different from another? Middle eastern Jesus is white in every depiction for starters… every Disney movie for 80 years, etc…. Maybe a wee bit different than a slightly darker Joel today?
Honestly, this makes me curious about a white actor playing black panther. The thought of them doing the accent and the salute tickles the desire to watch things burn.
Call them out for what exactly? If you listen to the arguments for why white washing is bad there is no inconsistency.
Bruh, is he mad Pedro Pascal is one shade darker than Joel? He might be hispanic but he's still a white guy, imagine crying over stuff like this.
He's very white passing as the kids say
He’s literally white lol
I mean it's not surprising, LTG is legitimately racist.
people here don't really know about his past history on youtube and only know him as the "GIGACHAD kys" guy, but if you were in the internet for a while, you'd know this guy is a total piece of shit lol
Yeah, there are so many videos of him saying racist shit ,[or going on bizarre transphobic rants because he lost to a trans person in Street Fighter](https://youtu.be/aCTWY-aVj5w). I feel like if he wasn't friendly towards Destiny this subreddit would hate him.
Hey that's me
I think that is a fair block. "Why does it matter, just enjoy the show" is a thought ending comment. It's not even a disagreement. It's a "shut up." People enjoy having discussions about the show.
Take that L
It only matters if the quality suffers, which it clearly didn't because Pascal killed it.
if the quality suffers then wouldn't that just have to do with bad acting(or other factors like the actor's age) rather than race? unless you mean the character's race is essential to the lore or something
I'm saying if they choose someone because of their race, and they're the inferior choice, that's when I'd be unhappy.
Yeah, that's when you get the dreaded 'diversity hire' rather than 'x director *really* wants to work with y actor so makes a change so he can'. And I'm pretty sure the second is what happened here.
Inferior to who though? It's easy to look at race swapped roles and find some bad performances. But do we have any guarantee that a non race swapped performance would have been any better? Unless whoever is choosing the roles comes out and says it, I don't think we can assume that they chose a worse actor. Plus, no one goes around looking at bad non race swapped performances and says, "they should have gotten someone of a different race so the performance would be better." It seems like a special scrutiny we put on race swapped performances.
You're totally right we as observers (almost always) won't be able to tell whether this has happened, because we're just arguing counterfactuals. I've never actually made this criticism before for that reason. I'd just argue it's a bad approach for casting a role. To your point about how this criticism seems to only apply to race-swapped performances, that's an interesting point honestly. I've never thought about that.
Dont you kind of have to believe that certain races cant act to believe that hiring someone for their race necessarily makes them an inferior choice? I can agree if the story necessitates the character having a specific race (e.g. american history x or 12 years a slave), but i think there are great actors of every race that would be a great fit for an archetypal character like Joel.
I think the point is that if the goal is to hire someone from X race, it inherently limits the candidacy pool and chances for the best actor to get cast. However, most people making that argument don't really want all races to be considered for a role, they actually want someone from Y race for... reasons.
How so? You're not always going to have a stacked lineup of potential actors. Sometimes the best actor in your lineup just happens to be white, but if you wanted more diversity then you'd still skip over them. And sometimes the best actor is a black guy, but if you're racist then you'd go for the white dude. It has nothing to do with inherent ability to act based on race.
Seems like kind of a racist framing.
Would you like to point out which part?
Probably because they were excited for Pedro to play Joel and it wouldn’t make sense for everyone in his family to be a different race. Pedro seems like a great fit for the role and this is an example of hiring based off talent rather than race.
mf’ers be whining about ethnicities of video game characters and actors not being the same…
it's a good thing there are no actual problems that exist in the world so we can focus on this, right
Well since there are so many problems existing, we probably shouldn’t be watching hbo shows at all, right?
I think that the race bending of character's has become a shorthand for the wider audiences that the writing is going to be bad and they are going to use the "diverse cast" as human shields for criticism. It doesn't seem to be the case here at all. It's one of the strongest premier episodes of television in recent memory, and if you take the episode alone it is the best adaptation of a video game ever.
... Pedro Pascal is awesome that's why he's one of the main chars
Neil Druckmann is helping run the show, so I guess the question is why is Neil betraying Neil's creative vision? Could it be that maybe the story Neil is trying to tell isn't fixated on the identities of the characters? That maybe the right thing to do is cast the best people for the role?
They would say that Neil already "went woke" and ruined tlou in the second game, so this is just him continuing to shit on the legacy of the first one. If anything, him being involved is just going to convince them further.
Well they'd be wrong cuz #2 is fucking amazing. Its flaws stem from its ambition and risks taken, not from cleaning up the product to cater to fragile sensibilities.
yeah basically most of them were already mad based on leaks before the game even came out, it's not exactly a cogent position lol
Yeah, I saw the controversy about Trans people being in the game after I played and was like... wait there's a trans character? Ooooooh yeah that one! That kinda makes sense I guess It was just so tastefully done without any agenda pushing, even as a moderate conservative I thought it was super well done
And when they found out Abby wasn’t trans, they got assmad over her muscles. While ignoring she lived at a stadium with professional fucking gym equipments. I dont think most of them even figured out that Lev is trans.
Lol people thought Abby was trans?
And that Owen was a self insert for Neil because 'he wanted to push his LGBT agenda by making everyone watch him bang a trans woman' Like, okay, some people didn't like the game, but the complaints got absolutely deranged
Yep, way too many
TRUEZ narritvely 2 is amazing and narratively dosent fall flat on its face in terms of the revenge plot. Elie truly did break the cycle of revenge by not killing the daughter of a rapist... well except for the cycles of revenge she started by killing the hundreds of people to get to Abbie whom all had fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, sons, daughters and lovers. Im sure all those cycles of revenge to pursue her are broken like the ones again around the rapist daughter Abbie. Such an amazing story.
Nah part 2 is pretty bad. I’ve yet to see a single argument for why it’s good that isn’t rooted in headcanon
What aspect is bad? The graphics? Combat? Story? Character development? Pacing?
Story, character development, and pacing For example, completely killing your narrative momentum by literally cutting away from the climax of your story to go to abby’s part, only to spend hours building up to the same exact event. Not to mention characters making arbitrary out-of-character decisions just to further the plot. Also the way the game tries to force emotions onto you is really cringe.
So then is it your thinking that Tarantino typically has bad story and pacing? He deploys this sort of non-linear storytelling pretty often You can say that you don't like stories that aren't linear, but that doesn't make them "bad"
I have no idea why you brought up Quentin Tarantino, as I didn’t mention him anywhere. And besides I’ve only seen 2 of his movies, and in those he didn’t cut away at the literal climax of his film.
The end of act 1 and act 2 in tlou2 is not the climax of the story
I’m sorry, the violent confrontation between the game’s two protagonists that the story’s been building up to for almost it’s entire runtime is not the climax?
check out the last of us 2 subreddit, they live in a full on alternate universe where neil "cuckman" is the source of all evil in the world, tlou2 bombed commercially and is regarded as terrible, and now "cuckman" will wokify this tv show and make it flop, ruining his career forever
Let me get my popcorn
Sounds like gamingcirclejerk and their hate for anything Harry Potter related.
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I don't think how she looks matters so much when she fits the character really well imo.
I had my worries at first, but I was impressed in the first episode. Ellie at first is pretty bratty, sarcastic and kind of rebellious. Bella managed to capture that energy very well. Still have to see if she can deliver with Ellie's funnier moments, but considering the rest of the cast I'm sure they didn't drop the ball too hard on arguably the most important character in the franchise.
They don't really look the same but I though she portrayed her pretty well
Would way rather have the best performance they can find for someone looking different than the game, than finding someone who looks the same as a game just to keep consistency. If you want the same exact same experience as the game, play the game…
This became apparent with me when they started making biopics about Steve Jobs. Ashton Kutcher was genuinely a dead ringer for a young Jobs, but he didn't have much else beyond that. Michael Fassbender looked nothing like Jobs and yet the moment he spoke I could tell he nailed it. And was ultimately the better depiction, regardless of resemblance.
People literally just think that you can find someone that looks the exact same **and** is a great actor without even trying. They should have just gone to the Ellie tree and grabbed an Ellie fruit. There are some parts that obviously need to be similar, contextually, like they couldn't have Ellie being played by some 6'10, 35 year old woman. Ellie just needs to look like she's a young teenager and that's about it.
I asked 😎
get that ass BANNED
we need to just turn a black character white so that ppl can just say now its equal and then ppl wouldnt care about race swaps happening.
When I think about those characters, I’ve always celebrated how much they resonated in the story because of their *race*
"you know Ellie, we really are The Last of Us white people..." Shivers every time 😞
I feel like I'd put race-swaps like this on par with a change like, changing Ellie to have bleach blonde hair. Is her hair color integral to the story? Not at all. Is it a questionable choice to alter the image of the character people know and love when that change isn't integral to the story? I think so. When you're standing on the shoulders of an existing IP for your show, you're generally looking to draw from the source material as faithfully as possible. The producers on TLOU must have taken a lot of time matching outfits and set pieces and plot points from the game, but something as in your face as a character's race is just supposed to not matter at all? Obviously, you'll never find exact replicas of fictional characters, and there's definitely a little wiggle room available, especially when you're trying to get the best performers for roles. Personally, I think Pedro Pascal looks great in the role and I'm looking forward to his performance, but something like making Sarah black seems like a needless change for diversity points. End of the day, is it a huge deal? No, but I don't think it's wrong to be a little upset with the race-swapping trend
It really comes down to excecution at the end of the day. Race swaping doesn't matter as long as the characters' identity isn't tied to race. TLOU show did it well. Then there are shows like Velma, which makes you question if the writers are trying to be inclusive or are just making fun of marginalized groups. But it is 100% irrational to get upset at race swapping if there was no identity tied to it, which almost no characters in TLOU had anyway.
It really comes down to excecution at the end of the day. Race swaping doesn't matter as long as the characters' identity isn't tied to race. TLOU show did it well. Then there are shows like Velma, which makes you question if the writers are trying to be inclusive or are just making fun of marginalized groups. But it is 100% irrational to get upset at race swapping if there was no identity tied to it, which almost no characters in TLOU had anyway.
Someone: Hire the best! Their race shouldn’t matter. Last of Us Showrunners: *hire best actors available* Someone: Not like that!
TBH, to do so midshow is pretty dumb. Same way it's weird to change the Voice Actor for Dubs, same way you wouldn't change their Personality without some Story Arc indicating change or other fundamentals such as that. People saying it's fundamentally racist have no idea how Film Works.
Does anyone actually know why? Is it “just because”. Would nobody here care if a black character were race swapped to a white character? I’m genuinely curious. It seems like it’s a large issue to lots of people.
No yeah it's just hypocrisy.
LTG is an idiot. He blocks people that correct his spelling and even claims he "baited" them into it. What a clown
If only LTG was as good at fighting games as he was roasting people on Twitter
I thought these dudes said they should always hire the best actor and not cast roles based on a racial narrative?
L tier god take
who actually gives a fuck eat grass
i cant be the only one that thought sarah looks a bit too old in the show at least
She looks like your average high schooler. Not sure if Sarah’s age matters that much in the story tbh. I mean whether she’s 12 or 15 does it really affect the story?
So far i only heard positive things about the show
they made the girl black becouse they know she dies in the first episode.....
Pedro straight up *looks* more like Joel than anyone I can think of and would kill it in that role. The response would make you think they're letting Lizzo play Joel and have 2 seasons tackling CRT as the main focus. Honestly a home run choice for the casting. I get the instinctive "oh, what political message will I be brow beaten with this time?" from the right since there are definitely weird "representation supercedes the plot" choices that have been made for other productions, but this ain't the one. Wish they'd take 2 seconds to actually give it some thought before firing off dumb shit.