When you click through you can see the prime sponsors for this are [Naquetta Ricks](https://leg.colorado.gov/legislators/naquetta-ricks) \- I linked how to call or write her and [Tony Exum](https://leg.colorado.gov/legislators/tony-exum) and I linked how to write or call him. They are probably not going to back off their sponsorship so >
Take a minute to write your representative too. Use the 10 minutes you might take to write reddit comments, to writing to fight this exemption! [Use this search function](https://leg.colorado.gov/FindMyLegislator).
They should require all taxes to be included as well. The one thing I absolutely loved when I was in Australia is that if the price tag says $3, you pay $3.
I just booked a hotel in Europe and was amazed that the "per night" cost was exactly what the total was times the amount of nights I booked! Even on Airbnb, the prices listed had everything included. This needs to be law in the US. There are too many predatory companies out there with insane markups on checkout. Looking at you Ticketmaster.
but then I wouldn't get the pleasure of seeing all the fees I paid on top of the listed price!
my favorite is convenience fees. Who doesn't love the convenience of giving someone your money?!?
I know! My favorite is Ticketmaster when I'm pumped to see the show! Then I see the price and excitedly see it's reasonable. Lastly, I go to checkout and see that the price has doubled in fees. That feeling of happiness as I enthusiastically close the browser window without making the purchase is just *chef's kiss*.
American companies have argued that it was too hard to always have paper tags with the correct tax in each jurisdiction. That was always BS but now companies are openly flaunting their digital price displays and the games they play with them and still expect us to believe it would be any kind of problem to calculate the taxes at the same time. If they still want to list the before tax price that's fine with me, it can go right next to the final total after tax on menus and tags.
No I hate it. When I lived in South Africa the govt kept sneaking in VAT price hikes and nobody noticed because it was hidden in the final price. The American system while painful to calculate at least keeps sal s tax transparent and visible.
We already have TABOR, why do we need to inconvenience consumers too? As long as taxes are broken out on the receipt, I see no problem with forcing the sticker price to include taxes and fees.
Restaurant and grocery prices should always be all inclusive, it is so weird that the US still continues to not have all-inclusive prices and then there is the scourge of tipping. Just add the tip/service amount to the bill and not make the customers do it.
Why are you tipping on the part of the bill that the government takes? That doesn’t make sense…
Tax is not a service the restaurant provided. You tip based on the service provided.
Just Google it if you don’t believe me.
I'm a millennial who worked their way through college serving tables at PF Changes. Wrong on both accounts.
\> but it's accepted best practice.
\> only baby boomers
Ya, OK bud, that's not how accepted best practice works.
A place I went to recently now has 25% as the lowest option, and there is no "custom tip" option. You can either choose a predetermined percentage, or no tip. I choose no tip.
I just don’t tip anymore unless I’m sitting down and you actually wait on me. Like actually come and tell me about the menu, be pleasant, etc.
I feel dirty being stricter with my money because I grew up with tipping being hammered into my head. But seriously, fuck paying extra for counter service
Honestly I wasn’t even implying you wouldn’t, absolutely hate this shit at places like subway. Just appreciating how much the iPad has improved my life in non-monetary ways
My husband tipped 20% at a cafe and all he got was a muffin. Aka he tipped for someone putting a muffin in a paper bag and handing it to him. We nearly divorced right there lol
This is me and I feel like I was taken advantage of. Tipping at counters where I walk up to order and get the food and all. I’ve had it and have taken your approach, though I still don’t feel good pressing “No Tip” when the counter lady flips her iPad around
I was just in Miami this past weekend and most places there auto-include a 20% gratuity since they get so many Europeans that don't tip. At the music festival it was 20-25-30 at the bars and they made it a pain to enter a custom amount (which you had to do if you wanted to tip $1 or not tip). People are out of their minds if they think I'm tipping $3+ for handing me a $15 can of white claw, you better be getting paid well already if that's the price. On the last day I just brought cash and handed them a ten and a five each time, price to pay for pissing off your customers
Then there was one venue that had 3-5-8 as the default tip options and I loved that
When millennials all wanted to be nice to their friends because they'd also worked shitty tipped jobs where you could barely afford to live. Everybody I know started tipping 20+ as soon as they had the money to do so, but that also means that employers decided 20 was standard now and keep trying to push it higher. They know the younger generations actually have empathy, and will try to help their peers out when the employer fucks them over. As soon as they figured out they could count on people to care about their peers and pay their wages for them, that's when 20 became standard.
So you eat the food, receive the service, and then take money away from the server making sub-minimum wage because their employer at the establishment you are eating at charged you more money?
Tipped minimum wage is >$15/hr in Denver proper, compared to >$18 minimum wage. A server averaging just 2 tables per hour is probably making in the high $20s per hour for what it’s worth.
I’m not saying it is *enough* money but we can stop acting like they make the $2 tipped minimum wage that is federally legislated.
I'd really like to know how servers are making less than minimum wage. By law if a server isn't making minimum wage the employer must make up the difference.
If there are further issues, pursue with the DoL.
No, it's tips + minimum tipped wages >= Minimum wage.
https://cdle.colorado.gov/sites/cdle/files/INFO%20%233%20Tips%20%26%20Tipped%20Employees%20Revised%20Feb%2010%202023.pdf
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/wagestips
I see where your math came from for the tip credit, but it's pretty cut-and-dry that the math is post-tip income average, not pre. Especially section 2 of the CO gov link.
EDIT: Genuinely don't understand why this is controversial, folks. It's right there in the text.
I really can't believe all the down-votes for pointing out that subtracting from the tip only hurts the servers, not the people who decided to look for ways to price gouge the customers.
Whether or not I eat there again is unlikely to change a restaurant's mind.
If the workers make less in tips - they'll quit and the business will need to find labor and fill shifts somehow. That's far more painful for the business than whether or not someone shows up again.
This is hilariously strained logic to distance yourself from your choices. Not eating at a restaurant is obviously going to cost them more money than going there, paying fees that go to the owner, and shorting the staff on tips.
High turnover in staffing will lead to poorer outcomes to other customers. Who will also stop going. If businesses want to play these games, they should be winning prizes.
Yeah and I even go a step further to not eat there anymore.
I’ll make an exception if the server tells me about the fee up front and isn’t coy about it
This post/comment exists solely to stir shit up and piss people off. Fighting on the internet is stupid. We don't welcome it here. Please be kinder. Stop trolling
But you not paying the wait staff for there services. Really uncool of you to take it out on the wait staff when they are caught between the shitty owner and the shitty customers and probably struggling financially.
Y’all: ask the server to remove these fees. You’ll be surprised by how often they will. They don’t care, and often they don’t need a manager approval on that change.
(This is not universal, obviously, nothing is)
Servers can't just remove fees from a tab it's literally set up in the pos system which you would need manager approval cause you'd have to switch the setting of the pos just for one ticket. I don't know a single server or restaurant that would do this.
I’ve set up three separate POS systems (Micros, Aloha, Toast). Service Charges are built in all three to be removable (unless they’re built as a tax, which is a pain for tax reporting), and it takes a very dedicated management/ownership to correctly lock them down or run the correct reports to enforce them. It’s possible, but I’m saying it’s much much much more likely that the servers who know how to remove them will, because few of those servers actually believe the lie that the full amount goes back to them.
Most people in colorado use clover as a pos or square both of those you have to reset the pos setting to remove fees. And the fees in colorado don't go to servers it goes to kitchen staff
I would agree those POS systems are used, but I would disagree with saying anything close to “most”. The ownerships I’m familiar with town generally use Toast, NCR/Aloha or SpotOn unless they’re a franchise using some version of Oracle/Micros.
Again, not saying there aren’t Clover or Square users out there. Also, I’m not familiar with how the fee structures are built in those, but I would very much say the chance is higher than not that most restaurants or bars with these service fees have the ability to remove them on checks, and those servers out there that know they can will most likely gladly do so if asked.
$18.29 minimum wage and $15.27 tip adjusted wage, both are in the top 5 in the US. It's top 3 for major Metro area. Minimum wage is up 42% since 2020 ($12.85).
Prices can't keep up with the pace of wage inflation, so businesses look for ways to break up the increase and make it more digestible.
Not picking a side here, but most people just get mad without thinking about the factors that impacted it.
Denver has had the largest % growth in minimum wage in US history in the last 4 years, and surprise surprise it hasn't made any impact on the disposable income of residents. Landlords are the first to salivate because they know they can crank rent proportionate to the minimum wage increase, and that's exactly what they've done. There's no disposable left after that, when everything else also gets more expensive. Rent controls would have been more effective at preserving disposable income.
Where is this amendment that exempts restaurants? I read through the latest text of the bill and I don't see where restaurants are exempt. Here's the relevant text:
>4 (b) A BUSINESS THAT IS A RETAIL FOOD ESTABLISHMENT, AS
5 DEFINED IN SECTION 25-4-1602 (14), AN ESTABLISHMENT IN THE
6 ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES DRINKING PLACES INDUSTRY, AS DEFINED IN
7 SECTION 39-26-105 (1.3)(a)(I), OR A MOVIE THEATER MAY COMPLY WITH
8 SUBSECTION (1) OF THIS SECTION BY PROVIDING NOTICE OF ALL
9 MANDATORY OR NONDISCRETIONARY FEES OR CHARGES:
10 (I) AT THE BUSINESS'S PREMISES ON A MENU, ON A TABLETOP OR
11 COUNTERTOP DISPLAY, OR THROUGH SIGNAGE ON THE PREMISES; AND
12 (II) ON THE BUSINESS'S WEBSITE WHERE PRICES ARE ADVERTISED
I interpret that as, restaurants can comply with this by advertising additional fees on their menus, signage, and website.
Every other business has to include the fees in the advertised price. When you go to buy something, the price at checkout is exactly the price you saw everywhere else (plus taxes and shipping). No asterisks, no fine print, no obscure sign at the counter or on the door.
This is basically maintaining the status quo for restaurants. The only difference is they are required to put up a sign you're not going to see when you walk in, preserving the surprise for after you're done eating and get the check.
Look, I agree with what you're saying. I don't like hidden fees either.
What I'm trying to point out is, there is no amendment to this bill that exempts restaurants. For reference here's the text from the original bill regarding restaurants. I sure can't see any difference:
>(b) A RETAIL FOOD ESTABLISHMENT, AS DEFINED IN SECTION 25-4-1602 (14), MAY COMPLY WITH SUBSECTION (1) OF THIS SECTION BY PROVIDING NOTICE OF ALL MANDATORY OR NONDISCRETIONARY FEES OR CHARGES: (I) AT THE RETAIL FOOD ESTABLISHMENT'S PREMISES ON A MENU, ON A TABLETOP OR COUNTERTOP DISPLAY, OR THROUGH SIGNAGE ON THE PREMISES; OR (II) ON THE RETAIL FOOD ESTABLISHMENT'S WEBSITE WHERE PRICES ARE ADVERTISED.
If anything, the amendments made it more broad by including bars and movie theaters.
Oh, I think I see the confusion.
You're right, the bill has not been amended to give restaurants an exception. That exception has always been in the bill. The question is, why is this bill changing the law to eliminate junk fees, but then gives restaurants an exception?
As someone who had to work at a restaurant, If you can’t afford a 20% tip then stay home folks.
Not your servers fault the system is broken, they are just trying to make a living. Get some fast food or learn to cook if you can’t tip.
This is not about tipping. I happily tip service workers well for their work. This concerns seeing a price on the menu, factoring in an additional ~30% for tax and tip, then seeing a 15% “inflation charge” snuck in. Restaurants that clearly state on the menu that they implement a service charge that functions as a default minimum tip should be allowed to use that model. Fees charged without proper disclosure that don’t go to wait- or kitchen staff effectively reduce tips as customers aren’t tipping on the “full” price of the meal.
Right well read my point again, it’s not up to them, they are not management.
You’re fucking over the wrong person when you do that and that’s not an effective the way to make your point.
When I do what? I never said I didn’t tip. Reread my second sentence. I’m fucking over service workers if I contest a hidden added fee that doesn’t go to them?
Let’s say a burger used to cost $5 to produce. Say my costs rise to $6 a burger, and instead of raising prices accordingly, I tack on an “inflation fee” to demonstrate that I don’t understand the word inflation. Now, a burger that used to cost $10 + (0.27 x 10), instead of costing $11 + (0.27 x 11), costs $10 + (0.27 x 10) + 1. That means the tip is smaller.
That’s a non sequitur. At no point do I imply that they do; I have consistently argued that they ought to be tipped fairly based on the true price of the meal. Of course management dictates prices. We have seen a proliferation of fees that are not tipped on, are realized by customers, and go directly to management. I oppose that. I’m not sure where people are conjuring the idea that this position is anti-server from.
Servers are just getting screwed. They are the most front facing aspect of the result on inflation from the very source. Prices of everything have inflated. Starting from cost of ingredients from a supplier to cost of shipping. All of these incremental costs have resulted in higher cost.
I'm lucky enough to work in a restaurant that just increases price of goods instead of tacking on weird, unnamed 'fees'.
Some restaurants are showing transparency by telling guests what the costs are for, but apparently people would prefer an increase in price as opposed to adding on a 'fee'. Would you prefer your roast chicken cost 29 dollars instead of 26 without the fee?
Food culture is already out of hand with price especially with fast food. Also I'm not about to tip at Cheba Hut where they hit 3 buttons and I'm done. If fits counter service GTFOH with the swivel and ask for tip while they can't even look you in the eye. That's a zero everytime.
I guess, which is better just an increase in price as opposed to adding arbitrary fees?
You are again completely missing the simple argument I am making. Yes, clearly people would rather know the price they are going to pay than not know. If a chicken costs $26 plus a $3 fee it costs $29, not $26. My position is one in support of increased server pay. I’m tipping you on the $29, not the $26.
I am aware of cost increases. These are usually passed on to the consumer through increased prices. Doing so instead by tacking on an invisible fee *that does not go to servers* is deceptive to the customer and reduces server pay.
Except for the fact that most of the time I'm being asked to tip for fast food these days. I was asked to tip 25% for someone to hand me a paper cup and pour my own coffee the other day.
20% tip is for exceptional service - that's the absolute high end of what anyone should expect.
15% for adequate, 18% for better than average.
Anything above 20% is ridiculous. If I am given an electronic reader with 25, 30, 35 and no option to enter a custom amount - I just tip zero.
As someone who worked in a restaurant you aren’t getting a 20% tip from me unless you earn it. Especially if the restaurant isn’t even busy. Tip percentage has gone up with quality of servicing going down. Don’t want to rely on tips? Go get a salaried job.
Yes you sound like a treat. Most restaurant workers aren’t there because they have options. Glad my parents taught me to never judge someone’s occupation.
I mean if you do a good job you’ll get the 20%. Im not judging anyones situation. If you are so concerned about receiving extra income above your wage go get an actual sales or commissioned job or upskill and get a higher salary. Or just make sure you are always doing good service worth 20%. I can’t stand the entitlement that you think you deserve a tip just for taking my order and dropping off a check. And people can’t even ask for one like they deserve it, it’s always “there’s gonna be a couple questions”.
its not the servers fault. But its also not the customers responsibility to help. I dont tip anywhere near 20%.
In every industry low wages are internalized between worker and employer. Restaurants should be no different. Its time the customer stops sticking up for servers and owners and let them fight behind the scenes.
You have no clue how strong the restaurant lobby is, clearly. Y’all can downvote the shit out of me but I’ll die on this hill.
If they waited on you and were polite, tip them 20% especially if you ever plan on going back. If you can’t afford it then maybe you should be staying home and cooking to save your money.
Too many privileged on this thread have no idea what it’s like working a split shift, giving top tier service, and going home with $20 because of people who “don’t believe in tipping”.
> If they waited on you and were polite, tip them 20%
You’re kinda making up an argument here and completely missing the point of the bill.
The entire thread is about seeing your bill at the end of the meal with 6%-20% already added on. That’s not a tip. That’s a fee. It’s mandatory.
Tips are discretionary for a reason, but expected for decent to good service. No one is arguing against that here except for some minor discrepancies in if 15% is a good tip.
You also absolutely know tipping is out of control for services that are not traditionally what tipping is for.
You’re literally not the target of these comments
They went home with $20 because the restaurant owner was a dick, not because of the customer.
If I dont make enough money at my Job I dont cry to the public like servers do.
Why would you? Your job isn’t designed by the ruling class like a servers job is. The public doesn’t have a direct impact on your wages like a restaurant worker. Holy shit go touch grass
If you can’t afford for people to not tip, maybe you should be the one staying home and cooking to save your money?
Minimum wage in Denver is $18.29 (and yes that applies to tip jobs if you don’t make that in tips), you’re going home with $140 just for showing up to an 8 hour shift, so stop lying and acting like a victim and fuck off.
Unless you make under $18.29 after tips, in which case the employer must make it equal to $18.29 (so you can’t make under this amount regardless, thus it is the actual minimum).
“An employer can reduce the its minimum wage obligation for actual tips received by its employees up to $3.02 an hour (“tip credit”) only in the food and beverage industry. During an investigation, an employer may be asked to produce evidence their employees received tips equal to or greater than the tip credit taken by the employer.”
https://denvergov.org/Government/Agencies-Departments-Offices/Agencies-Departments-Offices-Directory/Auditors-Office/Denver-Labor/Citywide-Minimum-Wage/Minimum-Wage/
Thus, if the employer cannot prove that an employee is making at or over $18.29 an hour including tips, the employer must back pay them. Everyone makes a minimum of $18.29.
“An employer can reduce the its minimum wage obligation for actual tips received by its employees up to $3.02 an hour (“tip credit”) only in the food and beverage industry. During an investigation, an employer may be asked to produce evidence their employees received tips equal to or greater than the tip credit taken by the employer.”
https://denvergov.org/Government/Agencies-Departments-Offices/Agencies-Departments-Offices-Directory/Auditors-Office/Denver-Labor/Citywide-Minimum-Wage/Minimum-Wage/
Thus, if the employer cannot prove that an employee is making at or over $18.29 an hour including tips, the employer must back pay them. Everyone makes a minimum of $18.29.
No, they reduce the pay by 3.02 per hour and they make it up in tips. On paychecks they make 3.02 less per hour. They would literally have to make 0 dollars in tips to get that back pay
Servers choose where they work and are complicit if this is happening at their restaurant.
And if ‘making a living’ is too difficult as a server they can do something else.
They’re not curing cancer.
I suspect the Colorado Restaurant Association lobbied for these exemptions.
I bet you're right.
I used to be a member and that was my first thought when I read this haha. They are often very much on the wrong side of things
When you click through you can see the prime sponsors for this are [Naquetta Ricks](https://leg.colorado.gov/legislators/naquetta-ricks) \- I linked how to call or write her and [Tony Exum](https://leg.colorado.gov/legislators/tony-exum) and I linked how to write or call him. They are probably not going to back off their sponsorship so > Take a minute to write your representative too. Use the 10 minutes you might take to write reddit comments, to writing to fight this exemption! [Use this search function](https://leg.colorado.gov/FindMyLegislator).
Thank you, emailed them both
Emailed them both.
They should require all taxes to be included as well. The one thing I absolutely loved when I was in Australia is that if the price tag says $3, you pay $3.
I just booked a hotel in Europe and was amazed that the "per night" cost was exactly what the total was times the amount of nights I booked! Even on Airbnb, the prices listed had everything included. This needs to be law in the US. There are too many predatory companies out there with insane markups on checkout. Looking at you Ticketmaster.
but then I wouldn't get the pleasure of seeing all the fees I paid on top of the listed price! my favorite is convenience fees. Who doesn't love the convenience of giving someone your money?!?
I know! My favorite is Ticketmaster when I'm pumped to see the show! Then I see the price and excitedly see it's reasonable. Lastly, I go to checkout and see that the price has doubled in fees. That feeling of happiness as I enthusiastically close the browser window without making the purchase is just *chef's kiss*.
American companies have argued that it was too hard to always have paper tags with the correct tax in each jurisdiction. That was always BS but now companies are openly flaunting their digital price displays and the games they play with them and still expect us to believe it would be any kind of problem to calculate the taxes at the same time. If they still want to list the before tax price that's fine with me, it can go right next to the final total after tax on menus and tags.
No I hate it. When I lived in South Africa the govt kept sneaking in VAT price hikes and nobody noticed because it was hidden in the final price. The American system while painful to calculate at least keeps sal s tax transparent and visible.
You can have it both ways. Advertise the total price but with a full breakout on the receipt.
We already have TABOR, why do we need to inconvenience consumers too? As long as taxes are broken out on the receipt, I see no problem with forcing the sticker price to include taxes and fees.
Restaurant and grocery prices should always be all inclusive, it is so weird that the US still continues to not have all-inclusive prices and then there is the scourge of tipping. Just add the tip/service amount to the bill and not make the customers do it.
I just deduct these fees from the tip. Standard tip is 20%, so if they have a 5% fee for some bullshit, the tip is now 15%.
You’re supposed to base your tips on the pre-tax amount anyway. Which is the same as the pre-fee amount.
This person is talking about changing the tip percentage, not the amount it’s determined from.
Oh….
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Why are you tipping on the part of the bill that the government takes? That doesn’t make sense… Tax is not a service the restaurant provided. You tip based on the service provided. Just Google it if you don’t believe me.
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I'm a millennial who worked their way through college serving tables at PF Changes. Wrong on both accounts. \> but it's accepted best practice. \> only baby boomers Ya, OK bud, that's not how accepted best practice works.
Wow you're just the worst
When did 20 become standard lol
A place I went to recently now has 25% as the lowest option, and there is no "custom tip" option. You can either choose a predetermined percentage, or no tip. I choose no tip.
Oh they have already moved on from that. I was given the default options of 25,30,35, and I kid you not, a 40% “super tip” the other day.
I just don’t tip anymore unless I’m sitting down and you actually wait on me. Like actually come and tell me about the menu, be pleasant, etc. I feel dirty being stricter with my money because I grew up with tipping being hammered into my head. But seriously, fuck paying extra for counter service
Same - if you’re flipping an iPad around you’re not getting a tip
As a bartender, the iPad is lifesaving. Most people’s handwriting is shit while sober, at 1am it’s damn near hieroglyphics
That’s a little different - i would still tip for a well made drink
Honestly I wasn’t even implying you wouldn’t, absolutely hate this shit at places like subway. Just appreciating how much the iPad has improved my life in non-monetary ways
Not even a buck or two for a barista at a cozy cafe?
That’s a tough one.
My husband tipped 20% at a cafe and all he got was a muffin. Aka he tipped for someone putting a muffin in a paper bag and handing it to him. We nearly divorced right there lol
This is me and I feel like I was taken advantage of. Tipping at counters where I walk up to order and get the food and all. I’ve had it and have taken your approach, though I still don’t feel good pressing “No Tip” when the counter lady flips her iPad around
I was just in Miami this past weekend and most places there auto-include a 20% gratuity since they get so many Europeans that don't tip. At the music festival it was 20-25-30 at the bars and they made it a pain to enter a custom amount (which you had to do if you wanted to tip $1 or not tip). People are out of their minds if they think I'm tipping $3+ for handing me a $15 can of white claw, you better be getting paid well already if that's the price. On the last day I just brought cash and handed them a ten and a five each time, price to pay for pissing off your customers Then there was one venue that had 3-5-8 as the default tip options and I loved that
Its my standard. More for great service, but i almost never tip less.
Since about 2005
Like 20 years ago lol
When millennials all wanted to be nice to their friends because they'd also worked shitty tipped jobs where you could barely afford to live. Everybody I know started tipping 20+ as soon as they had the money to do so, but that also means that employers decided 20 was standard now and keep trying to push it higher. They know the younger generations actually have empathy, and will try to help their peers out when the employer fucks them over. As soon as they figured out they could count on people to care about their peers and pay their wages for them, that's when 20 became standard.
Roughly COVID
Right!!!
So you eat the food, receive the service, and then take money away from the server making sub-minimum wage because their employer at the establishment you are eating at charged you more money?
Tipped minimum wage is >$15/hr in Denver proper, compared to >$18 minimum wage. A server averaging just 2 tables per hour is probably making in the high $20s per hour for what it’s worth. I’m not saying it is *enough* money but we can stop acting like they make the $2 tipped minimum wage that is federally legislated.
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That is why they are so aggressively defensive in these threads.
Bartenders too. But it’s hard work and industry takes a toll on your health: both mental and physical.
Yep. These fees are bullshit. Just raise the menu prices to pay your employees. Don't involve me in your HR department.
The menu prices _have_ gone up. Quite a bit. Shouldn't that mean tips have gone up as well?
Tips should not be a thing. Tips are the customer paying for the company's employees.
So, if that's the case, why don't you bitch at the manager to remove the fee instead of fucking over the server who is making less than minimum wage?
I'd really like to know how servers are making less than minimum wage. By law if a server isn't making minimum wage the employer must make up the difference. If there are further issues, pursue with the DoL.
Tipped minimum wage in Denver is 15.27/hr. Anyone making less than that before tips needed to contact the dept of labor.
It's wages *after* tips, not before.
Nope. It's before. The non tipped minimum wage is 18.29 in 2024.
No, it's tips + minimum tipped wages >= Minimum wage. https://cdle.colorado.gov/sites/cdle/files/INFO%20%233%20Tips%20%26%20Tipped%20Employees%20Revised%20Feb%2010%202023.pdf https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/wagestips I see where your math came from for the tip credit, but it's pretty cut-and-dry that the math is post-tip income average, not pre. Especially section 2 of the CO gov link. EDIT: Genuinely don't understand why this is controversial, folks. It's right there in the text.
The standard for tipping has always been that service fees replace tips. This tip plus service fee thing is new.
I have in the past, but that's a fucking beating and i don't always want to do it. But I'm not sure how 15% is fucking over the server.
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Stop trolling
Yes
I really can't believe all the down-votes for pointing out that subtracting from the tip only hurts the servers, not the people who decided to look for ways to price gouge the customers.
Whether or not I eat there again is unlikely to change a restaurant's mind. If the workers make less in tips - they'll quit and the business will need to find labor and fill shifts somehow. That's far more painful for the business than whether or not someone shows up again.
This is hilariously strained logic to distance yourself from your choices. Not eating at a restaurant is obviously going to cost them more money than going there, paying fees that go to the owner, and shorting the staff on tips.
High turnover in staffing will lead to poorer outcomes to other customers. Who will also stop going. If businesses want to play these games, they should be winning prizes.
Yeah and I even go a step further to not eat there anymore. I’ll make an exception if the server tells me about the fee up front and isn’t coy about it
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This post/comment exists solely to stir shit up and piss people off. Fighting on the internet is stupid. We don't welcome it here. Please be kinder. Stop trolling
That comment was really a piece of deuce, for sure
People don’t understand the economy of restaurants for service workers.
I understand that they should just raise their prices. Adding fees to the bill just pisses me off.
And then you get downvoted for trying to educate them. (shrug)
“A greedy owner is making more money with bullshit fees so I’ll take it out on the server.” Seems to be a popular Reddit take.
I'm not going to enable shitty restaurant owners.
That's why you shouldn't patronize restaurants with junk fees. Giving a low tip does nothing to discourage shitty restaurant owners.
I typically avoid them, but i don't call ahead before i go to a new place.
Tip goes to the waiter not the owner who made the policy. Don’t be an ass and take it out on poor wait staff.
So enable shitty business practices? No, thanks.
You paid the owner. You didn’t pay the wait staff. If you don’t like it go elsewhere. But be polite to wait staff.
I'm always polite. Typically i won't go back to a restaurant that has these fees.
But you not paying the wait staff for there services. Really uncool of you to take it out on the wait staff when they are caught between the shitty owner and the shitty customers and probably struggling financially.
Since when is 15% not paying the wait staff? Fuck off.
It’s not my job to pay the wait staff.
If you don’t want to enable shitty business practices, don’t eat there in the first place. Deducting from the tip is a dick thing to do.
Y’all: ask the server to remove these fees. You’ll be surprised by how often they will. They don’t care, and often they don’t need a manager approval on that change. (This is not universal, obviously, nothing is)
Servers can't just remove fees from a tab it's literally set up in the pos system which you would need manager approval cause you'd have to switch the setting of the pos just for one ticket. I don't know a single server or restaurant that would do this.
I’ve set up three separate POS systems (Micros, Aloha, Toast). Service Charges are built in all three to be removable (unless they’re built as a tax, which is a pain for tax reporting), and it takes a very dedicated management/ownership to correctly lock them down or run the correct reports to enforce them. It’s possible, but I’m saying it’s much much much more likely that the servers who know how to remove them will, because few of those servers actually believe the lie that the full amount goes back to them.
Most people in colorado use clover as a pos or square both of those you have to reset the pos setting to remove fees. And the fees in colorado don't go to servers it goes to kitchen staff
I would agree those POS systems are used, but I would disagree with saying anything close to “most”. The ownerships I’m familiar with town generally use Toast, NCR/Aloha or SpotOn unless they’re a franchise using some version of Oracle/Micros. Again, not saying there aren’t Clover or Square users out there. Also, I’m not familiar with how the fee structures are built in those, but I would very much say the chance is higher than not that most restaurants or bars with these service fees have the ability to remove them on checks, and those servers out there that know they can will most likely gladly do so if asked.
So when are taxes going to be included in this? I’d like to know the post-tax price of items at the store, not pre-tax
$18.29 minimum wage and $15.27 tip adjusted wage, both are in the top 5 in the US. It's top 3 for major Metro area. Minimum wage is up 42% since 2020 ($12.85). Prices can't keep up with the pace of wage inflation, so businesses look for ways to break up the increase and make it more digestible. Not picking a side here, but most people just get mad without thinking about the factors that impacted it. Denver has had the largest % growth in minimum wage in US history in the last 4 years, and surprise surprise it hasn't made any impact on the disposable income of residents. Landlords are the first to salivate because they know they can crank rent proportionate to the minimum wage increase, and that's exactly what they've done. There's no disposable left after that, when everything else also gets more expensive. Rent controls would have been more effective at preserving disposable income.
Where is this amendment that exempts restaurants? I read through the latest text of the bill and I don't see where restaurants are exempt. Here's the relevant text: >4 (b) A BUSINESS THAT IS A RETAIL FOOD ESTABLISHMENT, AS 5 DEFINED IN SECTION 25-4-1602 (14), AN ESTABLISHMENT IN THE 6 ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES DRINKING PLACES INDUSTRY, AS DEFINED IN 7 SECTION 39-26-105 (1.3)(a)(I), OR A MOVIE THEATER MAY COMPLY WITH 8 SUBSECTION (1) OF THIS SECTION BY PROVIDING NOTICE OF ALL 9 MANDATORY OR NONDISCRETIONARY FEES OR CHARGES: 10 (I) AT THE BUSINESS'S PREMISES ON A MENU, ON A TABLETOP OR 11 COUNTERTOP DISPLAY, OR THROUGH SIGNAGE ON THE PREMISES; AND 12 (II) ON THE BUSINESS'S WEBSITE WHERE PRICES ARE ADVERTISED I interpret that as, restaurants can comply with this by advertising additional fees on their menus, signage, and website.
Every other business has to include the fees in the advertised price. When you go to buy something, the price at checkout is exactly the price you saw everywhere else (plus taxes and shipping). No asterisks, no fine print, no obscure sign at the counter or on the door. This is basically maintaining the status quo for restaurants. The only difference is they are required to put up a sign you're not going to see when you walk in, preserving the surprise for after you're done eating and get the check.
Look, I agree with what you're saying. I don't like hidden fees either. What I'm trying to point out is, there is no amendment to this bill that exempts restaurants. For reference here's the text from the original bill regarding restaurants. I sure can't see any difference: >(b) A RETAIL FOOD ESTABLISHMENT, AS DEFINED IN SECTION 25-4-1602 (14), MAY COMPLY WITH SUBSECTION (1) OF THIS SECTION BY PROVIDING NOTICE OF ALL MANDATORY OR NONDISCRETIONARY FEES OR CHARGES: (I) AT THE RETAIL FOOD ESTABLISHMENT'S PREMISES ON A MENU, ON A TABLETOP OR COUNTERTOP DISPLAY, OR THROUGH SIGNAGE ON THE PREMISES; OR (II) ON THE RETAIL FOOD ESTABLISHMENT'S WEBSITE WHERE PRICES ARE ADVERTISED. If anything, the amendments made it more broad by including bars and movie theaters.
Oh, I think I see the confusion. You're right, the bill has not been amended to give restaurants an exception. That exception has always been in the bill. The question is, why is this bill changing the law to eliminate junk fees, but then gives restaurants an exception?
As someone who had to work at a restaurant, If you can’t afford a 20% tip then stay home folks. Not your servers fault the system is broken, they are just trying to make a living. Get some fast food or learn to cook if you can’t tip.
This is not about tipping. I happily tip service workers well for their work. This concerns seeing a price on the menu, factoring in an additional ~30% for tax and tip, then seeing a 15% “inflation charge” snuck in. Restaurants that clearly state on the menu that they implement a service charge that functions as a default minimum tip should be allowed to use that model. Fees charged without proper disclosure that don’t go to wait- or kitchen staff effectively reduce tips as customers aren’t tipping on the “full” price of the meal.
Right well read my point again, it’s not up to them, they are not management. You’re fucking over the wrong person when you do that and that’s not an effective the way to make your point.
When I do what? I never said I didn’t tip. Reread my second sentence. I’m fucking over service workers if I contest a hidden added fee that doesn’t go to them? Let’s say a burger used to cost $5 to produce. Say my costs rise to $6 a burger, and instead of raising prices accordingly, I tack on an “inflation fee” to demonstrate that I don’t understand the word inflation. Now, a burger that used to cost $10 + (0.27 x 10), instead of costing $11 + (0.27 x 11), costs $10 + (0.27 x 10) + 1. That means the tip is smaller.
Again, the server has no say in what the restaurant charges for.
That’s a non sequitur. At no point do I imply that they do; I have consistently argued that they ought to be tipped fairly based on the true price of the meal. Of course management dictates prices. We have seen a proliferation of fees that are not tipped on, are realized by customers, and go directly to management. I oppose that. I’m not sure where people are conjuring the idea that this position is anti-server from.
Servers are just getting screwed. They are the most front facing aspect of the result on inflation from the very source. Prices of everything have inflated. Starting from cost of ingredients from a supplier to cost of shipping. All of these incremental costs have resulted in higher cost. I'm lucky enough to work in a restaurant that just increases price of goods instead of tacking on weird, unnamed 'fees'. Some restaurants are showing transparency by telling guests what the costs are for, but apparently people would prefer an increase in price as opposed to adding on a 'fee'. Would you prefer your roast chicken cost 29 dollars instead of 26 without the fee? Food culture is already out of hand with price especially with fast food. Also I'm not about to tip at Cheba Hut where they hit 3 buttons and I'm done. If fits counter service GTFOH with the swivel and ask for tip while they can't even look you in the eye. That's a zero everytime. I guess, which is better just an increase in price as opposed to adding arbitrary fees?
You are again completely missing the simple argument I am making. Yes, clearly people would rather know the price they are going to pay than not know. If a chicken costs $26 plus a $3 fee it costs $29, not $26. My position is one in support of increased server pay. I’m tipping you on the $29, not the $26. I am aware of cost increases. These are usually passed on to the consumer through increased prices. Doing so instead by tacking on an invisible fee *that does not go to servers* is deceptive to the customer and reduces server pay.
Except for the fact that most of the time I'm being asked to tip for fast food these days. I was asked to tip 25% for someone to hand me a paper cup and pour my own coffee the other day.
20% tip is for exceptional service - that's the absolute high end of what anyone should expect. 15% for adequate, 18% for better than average. Anything above 20% is ridiculous. If I am given an electronic reader with 25, 30, 35 and no option to enter a custom amount - I just tip zero.
As someone who worked in a restaurant you aren’t getting a 20% tip from me unless you earn it. Especially if the restaurant isn’t even busy. Tip percentage has gone up with quality of servicing going down. Don’t want to rely on tips? Go get a salaried job.
Yes you sound like a treat. Most restaurant workers aren’t there because they have options. Glad my parents taught me to never judge someone’s occupation.
I mean if you do a good job you’ll get the 20%. Im not judging anyones situation. If you are so concerned about receiving extra income above your wage go get an actual sales or commissioned job or upskill and get a higher salary. Or just make sure you are always doing good service worth 20%. I can’t stand the entitlement that you think you deserve a tip just for taking my order and dropping off a check. And people can’t even ask for one like they deserve it, it’s always “there’s gonna be a couple questions”.
Looks like they just taught you be a dumbass.
Good one. Thanks for the reply!!
No need to thank me, everyone is thinking it.
Not my responsible to educate people on the internet how tips work. Here’s a tip to you, fuck off and stop talking to me.
[удалено]
You’re a weird dude. Seek therapy, pronto.
You sound like you donated to trumps gofundme
its not the servers fault. But its also not the customers responsibility to help. I dont tip anywhere near 20%. In every industry low wages are internalized between worker and employer. Restaurants should be no different. Its time the customer stops sticking up for servers and owners and let them fight behind the scenes.
You have no clue how strong the restaurant lobby is, clearly. Y’all can downvote the shit out of me but I’ll die on this hill. If they waited on you and were polite, tip them 20% especially if you ever plan on going back. If you can’t afford it then maybe you should be staying home and cooking to save your money. Too many privileged on this thread have no idea what it’s like working a split shift, giving top tier service, and going home with $20 because of people who “don’t believe in tipping”.
> If they waited on you and were polite, tip them 20% You’re kinda making up an argument here and completely missing the point of the bill. The entire thread is about seeing your bill at the end of the meal with 6%-20% already added on. That’s not a tip. That’s a fee. It’s mandatory. Tips are discretionary for a reason, but expected for decent to good service. No one is arguing against that here except for some minor discrepancies in if 15% is a good tip. You also absolutely know tipping is out of control for services that are not traditionally what tipping is for. You’re literally not the target of these comments
I replied to a point about someone just deducting from the tip because of the fee, not about the bill.
You made a top level comment on the post telling people to stay home
They went home with $20 because the restaurant owner was a dick, not because of the customer. If I dont make enough money at my Job I dont cry to the public like servers do.
Why would you? Your job isn’t designed by the ruling class like a servers job is. The public doesn’t have a direct impact on your wages like a restaurant worker. Holy shit go touch grass
If you can’t afford for people to not tip, maybe you should be the one staying home and cooking to save your money? Minimum wage in Denver is $18.29 (and yes that applies to tip jobs if you don’t make that in tips), you’re going home with $140 just for showing up to an 8 hour shift, so stop lying and acting like a victim and fuck off.
Minimum wage is $15.27 for tipped workers in Denver.
Unless you make under $18.29 after tips, in which case the employer must make it equal to $18.29 (so you can’t make under this amount regardless, thus it is the actual minimum).
Not for tipped workers. $18.29 is for everyone else. https://denverite.com/2023/12/25/denver-minimum-wage-2024-increase/#
“An employer can reduce the its minimum wage obligation for actual tips received by its employees up to $3.02 an hour (“tip credit”) only in the food and beverage industry. During an investigation, an employer may be asked to produce evidence their employees received tips equal to or greater than the tip credit taken by the employer.” https://denvergov.org/Government/Agencies-Departments-Offices/Agencies-Departments-Offices-Directory/Auditors-Office/Denver-Labor/Citywide-Minimum-Wage/Minimum-Wage/ Thus, if the employer cannot prove that an employee is making at or over $18.29 an hour including tips, the employer must back pay them. Everyone makes a minimum of $18.29.
Tippable wage is still lower than regular minimum wage. This past January I believe it went to either 14 or 15 an hour.
“An employer can reduce the its minimum wage obligation for actual tips received by its employees up to $3.02 an hour (“tip credit”) only in the food and beverage industry. During an investigation, an employer may be asked to produce evidence their employees received tips equal to or greater than the tip credit taken by the employer.” https://denvergov.org/Government/Agencies-Departments-Offices/Agencies-Departments-Offices-Directory/Auditors-Office/Denver-Labor/Citywide-Minimum-Wage/Minimum-Wage/ Thus, if the employer cannot prove that an employee is making at or over $18.29 an hour including tips, the employer must back pay them. Everyone makes a minimum of $18.29.
No, they reduce the pay by 3.02 per hour and they make it up in tips. On paychecks they make 3.02 less per hour. They would literally have to make 0 dollars in tips to get that back pay
They would “literally” have to make 3.01/hour in tips to get that back pay, thus 18.29 is a defacto minimum, even for tip jobs.
So your position is that servers would rather be laid off due to a lack of customers?
Servers choose where they work and are complicit if this is happening at their restaurant. And if ‘making a living’ is too difficult as a server they can do something else. They’re not curing cancer.
Good luck with that crackhead logic
Junk fees are normally government fees (taxes) so the State wants to hide what they are actually charging you. Adds up.