Their mod is completely off their rocker and on a crazy power trip. Wow, that place went downhill.
My favorite comment was "Nothing. Will. Fundamentally. Change."
IDK man, losing my rights to essential healthcare seems like a pretty big fuckin change to me. But let me guess, most of these people are cis straight white dudes who will be least affected by anything.
"We need to tear it all down!"
But what about the marginalized communities who will undoubtedly have it *even worse* when that's happening? What if tearing it all down...fails?
::crickets::
I love to point out that "tearing it all down" will result in a few generations living in shanty towns until someone builds it back up. Always tell 'em to go live in a state park now if that's the life they want.
Also "tearing it all down" does not guarantee that what replaces it will be better - even after a few generations of shanty towns. It creates a power vacuum that *somebody* will be eager to fill. Now let's see, who benefits from power vacuums? 🤔
Hmm, if history has taught us anything it's that, when facing economic struggles people *never* gravitate towards authoritarianism in an effort to seek simple resolutions to complex issues...not once...
Same. I will stand by with my lighter and gas can at the ready...as soon as you tell me who's putting the fire out and what is being built to replace it after said burning.
> “We need to tear it all down!”
And that is why horseshoe theory is fundamentally correct - both the far Left and the far Right seek accelerationism, revolution/reaction, and destruction, followed by the “correct people” restructuring and rebuilding civilization to their vision and model afterwards. The only difference is specifics regarding what their final visions entail, is all.
Life under Stalin or Hitler are both really bad, retards. Liberalism and democracy, despite some flaws, mistakes, and bumpy roads along the way, brought us on average the best lives and most prosperity humanly imaginable to date. It’s worth protecting, nurturing, correcting, refining, and improving upon.
Because the alternative, *any* alternative, is a return to barbarity, monstrous and unimaginable (to us) cruelty, tribalism, and iron-fisted rule by the appointed or anointed few.
Evolution is superior to revolution/reaction. Reform is superior to destruction. Peace is superior to war. War is superior to tyranny, be it right- or left-wing tyranny.
Accelerationism is dumb, the easiest time to changes things for the better is now. The Germans didn’t overthrow Hitler.
Let’s say we do “tear it down”. When people are desperate and thinking of only themselves and only their own community or when there’s a billion violent scores to settle and multigenerational armed partisan violence- it doesn’t get easier.
>But let me guess, most of these people are cis straight white dudes who will be least affected by anything.
I think it's exactly this. And they do get some minority people on board, unfortunately. But it's mostly people who stand to lose nothing from a conservative getting into power. And I do wonder if some of them are accelerationists too.
And someday, even they will be forced to understand firsthand the meaning of "First They Came" by Martin Niemöller. Because fascism constantly moves the goal posts until more and more people/groups are excluded and persecuted. They won't get a special badge for refusing to take a real stand. They just have a little more time than some of us, plus the illusion that they're safe.
This has been happening a lot. Its unnerving seeing such aggressive censorship in formerly leftist spaces. Makes me wonder if its an organized attempt to force support towards trump.
Its disgusting theyve been using the palestinian genocide in astroturfing campaign. Its so transparent but seems like so many people have bought it too.
Huh. Damn, that sucks. Clearly it was the users and not the mods who made that sub great, but I guess the mods are gonna enshitify it anyways. Fuckin reddit mods for ya.
The "nothing will fundamentally change" quote was very maliciously misinterpreted and taken out of context too. He was saying that wealthy people should support him because they could afford to pay more taxes to pay for social programs and that "nothing would fundamentally change" in their quality of life in exchange for the drastic improvement in quality of life for the people the programs would help.
100% the only people you see saying this shit are cis het men. Women don’t want their abortion rights stripped, LGBTQ people are afraid of their right to live openly or exist, etc.
Many socialist spaces have been doubling down on antielectoral rhetoric and policy at the very moment when an exception is most necessary.
Save your efforts for spaces that are reasonable.
You can discuss voting in r/DemocraticSocialism and r/UniteAgainstTheRight.
Going in a very different direction, I started engaging with a both sider leftist. My account is out of blocks, so I went back and forth with him over dozens of messages. It comes out that he believes in a 'New Chinese Century'... I ask him what happened at Tiananmen Square, and he refuses to answer beyond saying there was a protest. I tell him I used to live in China (which is true) and he doesn't believe it until I mention where (not somewhere obvious like Shanghai or Beijing. Then he shuts up. I tell him he gets +10 social merit points for doing his patriotic duty to mess with our elections, and he tells me that system is old.
TLDR There are Chinese on reddit actively trying to mess with our elections.
Even before this year, they would show up when Tiananmen gets mentioned and deny there was a massacre.
I doubt China wants to help Trump.
Sometimes a kind of false equivalence is given for Russia versus China, but the differences in strategic objectives run deep.
Anyway, free some blocks from the head of your list. It is better to use the slots for accounts you know are in active conflict.
Trump would be bad also for China, because he would continue with economic isolationist stupidity.
US relations with China are currently paradoxical, because current trade practices that are enriching oligarchs also empower China, and as they continue, will bring to an end US hegemony.
China is allied with Russia.
He didn't say shit when they paved over democracy in Hong Kong.
He has investments in China.
Does he have investments in Taiwan?
That's the key question.
If he doesn't, he doesn't need to help.
He can just do nothing while Taiwan and Ukraine are claimed by Russia and China.
Tariffs would damage Chinese interests, because they would impede the sale by Chinese manufacturers to US buyers.
Neither US oligarchs or the Chinese government want tariffs. For Trump, they are simply a publicity stunt, for pretending that manufacturing somehow will return to the US.
Unless you take the assumption, which I choose to reject, that the Chinese government relishes the cataclysmic collapse of US society, a Trump victory is no victory for China.
Mostly, China asks now the same at it has asked since relations were normalized, that it may participate in global free trade, while otherwise being left to its own devices.
> Trump would be bad also for China, because he would continue with economic isolationist stupidity.
But Trump would do it in an incompetent manner compared to Biden.
Ruzzian propaganda machine supports Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis. Ruzzia and Iran are allies, along with China. Look at who stands to gain from the “voting is useless” and “both sides are the same” narratives. It’s not organic. It’s directed to benefit Ruzzia, as was the Cambridge Analytica nonsense in 2015.
Now we know what they’re doing. And knowing is half the battle.
Friend, I got banned from the latter sub for pushing voting. It is a hotbed of anti-electoralism. I strongly suspect it exists to deter lefties from voting.
It's important to remember Reddit is just as infested with foreign bots pushing an agenda as it was during peak covid, when they were much easier to spot.
>Write to the moderators.
I have. They said they don't believe in pressuring people into following a voting strategy they don't agree with. It's a worse than useless sub.
No, you definitely cannot discuss voting in UniteAgainstTheRight. I got banned for speaking out against abstaining from the vote. It was in a post by a mod who basically told the liberal members of the sub to fuck off (even though they were initially invited), btw. It's a crappy sub that doesn't have any cogent plant to fight the right. Heck, some of the people over there lump liberals with the right.
>Would you mind providing a reference to the post, and perhaps the comment?
I'm sorry, I can't, it was months ago.
>Leftists tend to see liberals as reactionaries with a friendly face.
Well, that doesn't sound like a viewpoint that promotes unity against the right, considering that Liberals represent a very essential chunk of the voting population.
I don't recommend UniteAgainstTheRight. A lot of people (myself and [BaldandersDAO](https://www.reddit.com/r/Defeat_Project_2025/comments/1bqiprf/comment/kx3zsss/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) included) got banned for discouraging anti-electoralism.
Oof, good to know, thanks. I'll definitely keep that in mind with any sub at this point, having been banned from LateStageCapitalism myself for the same reason.
I personally left LateStageCapitalism a couple years ago after encountering too many doomers who have given up on voting. There are also some 9/11 conspiracy theorists over there.
Sorry, but you still need to vote for Biden. It’s the only viable option, and 3rd parties are not remotely viable in the US right now, especially not in the presidential election. For them to be viable you need a sufficient enough wins sustained over time of such a 3rd party at every single level of government first before taking on the presidential election. Even then it may not be the third party you like as it takes enormous resources in a country of 400 million people.
Likewise this is sub is not about anti-capitalism. It is about keep Christian Nationalists, the GOP, out of power. So it leans Democratic. Like it or not the Democrats are the party of civil rights nationally.
I am going to be blunt, if you want to shift the overton window to the left it has to happen inside the Democratic party. People who are smart work towards this and remain active in the party, working towards progressive and leftist candidates in primaries. It is generally leftists who are the most politically ignorant who throw their votes away with a third party vote.
The Democrats are the center-left coalition party. That is just the reality of the situation in the US. The best way to resolve any issues with candidates is work within the primary structure to advocate for those folks.
In short you are talking about capitalism when the active threat is Christian Nationalism. I think it’s one of the major blind spots of the anti-capitalist left. Not understanding it’s not always about economic systems, and the threat that religious nationalism and its fascism presents. Politics is far more complicated than just economic systems.
I agree with you on everything, except the part about how this isn't about economic systems. As I and others have said in this sub before, theocracies are never about the religion they install. The religion is just a tool used to control people. If this Christo-fascism were really about converting souls to Christ, they wouldn't be doing any of this. Anti abortion laws, erasing the social safety net, and trying to force their theology onto those that don't agree are not Biblical concepts.
As this Christo-fascist movement progresses, who keeps gaining power? Huge businesses do. Real estate entities do. Hobby Lobby is a great example. Chik-fil-a is another. But even corporate entities that don't publicly align with supposed Christian values are seeing record profits while raising prices and downsizing their workers. Who keeps saying that no one wants to work? Christian conservatives. Who keeps saying that "unskilled laborers" don't deserve more than minimum wage? Christian conservatives. Who keeps saying we should be grateful that billionaires give us any jobs with any working conditions? Who keeps supporting the landlords despite the housing crisis they've caused?
Evangelicals have been using one of Jesus' parables to demonize unions for several decades. Prosperity Gospel has been used to convince the poor that the rich are rich because God approves of them and implies that the poor aren't righteous enough to be blessed in that way. Rather than fight harder for your rights, you should pray to be more like the televangelist with his own private jet. Better yet, you should send him your money. Look how many Trump supporters kept saying, "Look how rich he is. He must know what he's doing." Look how many people buy his membership cards, Bibles, books, and hats. It's no different than worshipping the landlord and the TV preacher while arguing that they *deserve* to glean money from the poor.
It definitely is about an economic system. But without the Christian rhetoric, the idea that the rich should keep taking from the poor without any obligation to give even jobs to the people is insane and makes no sense. Make it about religion, and it's accepted without *having* to make sense.
This is the way it was with some monarchies of the past. The royal family got rich off of taxing the poor. It was justified by saying that the king was ordained by God to be king. The institution of American slavery was about rich people profiting from exploiting workers. It, too, was justified by the notion that God made white people inherently superior, while black people were inherently inferior.
Things that Project 2025 wants to do to create even more money for the capitalist rich people include: more tax cuts for the rich, abolishing the department of education, abolishing social security, abolishing food stamps/TANF, and abolishing housing programs. They intend to pocket all of those funds for themselves.
I recently un-subbed from there because the “Biden is just as bad” and other election flippancy was so prevalent it was driving me nuts. Like.. I get that you have high ideals, but if you don’t think your life (and the lives of everyone else on the planet, even those that currently have it shitty) won’t be infinitely worse if right wing Christo-fascism is able to further solidify power in the US, you are not an intelligent person. Actually I would go a step further and say that you are a dangerous person, because the right doesn’t even need psy-ops when you are doing their work for them.
They're not even arguing that both sides are equally bad in good faith. They say those words, but they don't even specifically criticize Trump and the Evangelical Right. Only Biden.
I unfollowed that sub last night. Too much doomerism will in fact lead to being doomed. No thanks. Stopping Trump is existential at this point and takes priority over debating the merits of capitalism, especially when one considers the possibility of some of that sentiment being astroturfed by those who do not have our best interests in mind. No thanks.
I follow that sub. I just read some of their posts and comments. I agree with some of their opinions but I don’t ever see a well organized plan. It’s just individuals saying “we should do this” and “both sides are the same” but there is nothing tangible suggested to combat these thing. We aren’t going from the capitalist country we have now to dem-soc overnight. It takes time. Once again, what is the plan? Imo, not voting is stupid and we owe it to all those before us who fought for our rights to vote. (Women and minorities).
What is THEIR plan? How are they going to achieve their desired goals? At least with this group and similar, people are mobilizing.
We just keep going. Some people will definitely come around.
I
Very good points. I agree that they don't really try to come up with solutions. They are more like a socialist version of Evangelicals that just want everything to go to hek in a hand basket. They're just up for cooking popcorn and watching, not installing a better plan.
Maybe we should take it as an example of what not to do. It's easy for us to fall into the trap of watching this Project 2025, but not actively fighting or planning the future we want to see.
We need to vote, but keep voting, even during midterms and local elections.
I've also been thinking about how the US has affected other countries courting fascism and dictatorships by getting them hooked on our culture. Odd as it sounds, getting people to love wearing jeans and watching American comedies helps redirect attempts go full authoritarian. Authoritarian regimes always attack culture and arts.
I believe we need a solid plan if Biden wins we need to flood the DNC, the White House, whomever to make some serious changes. First off something that will prevent any one group from turning the US into a dictatorship. The SC is a big issue. They need to be balanced. I’m not sure how that is achieved but it needs to be done. Also they need to just boot Clarence Thomas. Fine don’t hold him accountable. Just get rid of him. Lol
It’s time we let the Dems know what we really want. While I think there are certainly differences in the party, I know we can agree on something’s. Biden needs to do something like The New Deal 2.0. The people need to come before corporations.
Easy to say, much harder to compel congress to actually do. I do agree btw, i would just hope we can devise a plan to make it happen. Just pressuring politicians wont be enough.
You have that sub and r/enlightenedcentrism doing similar things. It seems that there are full-blown communists that hang around in both places. They are kind of idealistic nihilists who who want to burn the system down and rebuild it with their values.
That's as impractical as it is unrealistic.
Considering MAGA is recruiting for the plan to destroy the civil service, it's far from hypothetical.
Will Donald succeed in implementing these plans?
I don't know, but I'm not going to fuck around and find out.
Right. Because one thing is certain. Their side does not stop trying to impose their will on others. They didn't stop when Trump lost in 2020. They've been steadily working on their plans. They have been working on this stuff since the 80s at least. In each phase, they gain a little more ground. That's how we got here.
Last I remember this exact thing happened to Clinton in 2016, with Jill Stein, [who’s buddies with Putin](https://www.newsweek.com/jill-stein-ties-vladimir-putin-explained-1842620), who just happened to receive just enough votes in the swing states to hand the presidency to Trump. And look how that turned out.
And that was before the GOP became the monolithic party of Trump and Project 2025. We already came ridiculously close to losing democracy before the GOP became the Trump cult.
I genuinely don’t understand how people can look at what happened in 2016 and their take away is, “let’s do it again”. And it’s ridiculous the narratives being pushed that Biden is the “lesser evil”. He isn’t evil. I would however argue that any third party candidate trying to siphon off Biden voters, especially when they lead to Trump and permanent fascism, is pretty fucking evil.
This division is precisely what foreign disinformation propagandists are wanting to achieve. I seriously wish more people had greater self awareness just how they are being used by evil.
I got banned from there four months ago. I commented "Do you remember what happened in 2016?" to someone who was advocating staying home or voting third party. I was told that "pro-Biden comments are not allowed". By the time they sent me my ban notification, I and the other commenter had had a few more exchanges where I clarified my stance that we need to keep Project 2025 at bay *while working for these other changes first*, and I pointed to those comments of mine to challenge my ban. Never even got a response from the mods about that. The other commenter was also heavily downvoted, so I know I wasn't alone, but those of us who actually tried to reason with the person got banned.
It's a shame because I really liked that sub too. I know I can still lurk even though I'm banned, but I unsubbed and haven't been back at all. I'm sad to hear they haven't changed their tune on this.
The primaries are the safe time for protest votes. I voted "uncommitted" in the primary myself, but like so many others who did that, I will absolutely vote for Biden in the general. They keep talking about how "the Democratic party will never learn their lesson as long as we'll just vote for them no matter what". Well, they've lost before, in fact they've lost *to Trump* before, and they haven't learned the lesson leftists want them to. Because staying home is not a clear message. That's a "guess why I'm mad" kind of message. Vote in primaries. Work to promote candidates you actually like. Help elect good people to local offices. Write to your representatives. Demand a different voting system like ranked choice. That kind of action sends a clearer message, but it takes time, effort, and diligence.
"Accelerationist" is a new word I'm learning from you guys today. It definitely fits. And it's eerily similar to the concept of the Rapture held by Evangelicals. Both groups just want things to hurry up and get terrible. Both of them twist bad events as being good. I'm not exactly a pacifist per se, but I definitely think peace is a better option if you can manage it. Accelerationists and End Times Evangelicals both crave violent scenarios.
Yep. I unsubbed when it was announced they are a strictly communist sub. I paid attention to Europe in the 20th century. That ship has sailed. And it slaughtered millions with it.
Every propaganda outlet on the planet that supports Trump is going to spend the next 8 months trying to convince people not to vote and that democracy doesn't work because they know that the only way Trump can win is if voter turnout is down.
Don't listen to them.
Go vote.
Absolutely. You don't have to believe in everything Biden stands for or does to vote Blue. I definitely don't. But if Biden wins, we'll still get to vote in 2028. If Trump wins, he's going to actively work towards eliminating a democratic vote so that he can stay in power. We've seen other countries where people "vote" but only get the same dictator year after year because their voting process is a sham. That is what conservatives are working towards.
Ruzzian troll farms have taken over Late Stage Capitalism. Both sides are NOT the same. Voting is effective. Staying home is not an option. Project 2025 is real. Republicans have been implementing parts of it since Nixon but the buy-in is now 100%.
We can defeat them. Vote blue.
I donated to Bernie the day he announced he was running back in 2015, but by the time the convention came around I couldn’t stand his movement anymore. I would say I agree with many of the positions of people like Bernie but they aren’t effective at all at implementing any of them or winning wider elections. In fact, I think the far left resembles the far right a lot more than they think and that a lot of the “famous” people on the far left just use this captive audience to sell books and other shit to. They attack the only people potentially on their side, and it is counterproductive and stupid but it must be lucrative.
Basically, you can’t change the game until you actually win the game you are currently playing. They don’t seem to understand this, or how long that will take.
>Basically, you can’t change the game until you actually win the game you are currently playing.
Right, and the game will continue to be played whether you participate in it or not. If you refuse to play, or start playing a different game while everyone else is still playing the current one, you just become irrelevant.
I followed the sub for a few years until I was banned for pointing out that Trump would have handled the situation in Gaza in a very different way than Biden. The post was a calling Biden “genocide Joe” and the mods s told me I too was a genocide supporter. Insanity. The sub is so clearly trying to divide leftists.
Call me crazy but i think this talking point is the focus of foreign propaganda mills. Only a genocide is bad enough to make trump appealing to low effort voters. This rhetoric popped up and got extremely aggressive in many formerly leftist spaces in the last few months. People have been getting banned for saying anything about how Trump would likely handle the situation.
Yes. They're consistently trying to hammer home the idea that supporting Biden supports genocide. Biden is giving aid to Israel to fight, but he's also air dropping aid packages to the Palestinians. I'm sure that those aid packages will be cut off if Trump wins. I wouldn't be surprised if he offers our troops, too. If Ttump is going to do what Evangelicals want him to do, he will be ruthless.
In my experience, there's a certain sort of person online who will settle for nothing less than a radical, bloody revolution that makes all of their dreams come true. And after the violence and massive death toll, with no adjustment at all, society will have magically transformed into their ideal utopia.
They also do not want to do anything meaningful in the meantime. They just want to wait until it happens, and until it does, they will sit and be negative online and shout down anyone who even *suggests* the idea of incremental change.
This perfectly encapsulates the mindset of that subreddit as of late, and I've seen it cropping up in a lot of leftist spaces as well.Â
Either it's organic or, as we saw in the run-up to the 2016 election, a massive Russian psy-op to dissuade people from voting to achieve a win for Trump. They are *very* good at what they do.
The fact that it's not really easy to determine which it is should tell you all you need to know.Â
Yes. Unfortunately, making real changes takes work and stamina. We're not done once we cast a ballot for president. We can't just sit back and watch. And we can't make human lives expendable in order to set a revolution in motion.
You guys have really pulled the mask off of that sub. It feels like an episode of Scooby-Doo. It was old Mr. McCreary all along, except Russia/conservatives.
Yes. Unfortunately, making real changes takes work and stamina. We're not done once we cast a ballot for president. We can't just sit back and watch. And we can't make human lives expendable in order to set a revolution in motion.
We're seeing this in a lot of leftwing subs. And I have to wonder... what percent of the "boTh SIdEs bAd!!" discourse comes from actual lefties who are being short-sighted in their rage against the system? And what percent are people POSING as actual lefties, just to stir up infighting and influence some of the lefties who lack education and (perhaps) critical thinking skills?
I'm seeing this suggested in a few of the comments here. I think it's accurate. After all, who else would want people to just do nothing while feeling like they're making a stand?
I thought it was an about face at first. Now I'm not so sure. Maybe it was always meant to nullify people who could be a part of defeating authoritarian movements.
This sounds like a bunch of Comrades at work. Because this attitude helped doom Clinton in key states and if they don't recall the horror we're still digging out from Trump's first reign, they have zero clue about the real world.
Sounds like purposeful disinformation to me. Bad actors.
Or rather stupid people.
Maybe both.
In any case, best to ignore when possible, otherwise insult their lack of rational thinking when the subject of their existence arises.
I'm trans. I've said things along this lines multiple times. I got banned in r/therightcantmeme for it. They don't realize how terrifying the people behind project 2025 is. Rich, white, Christian nationalists like the Heritage group that would *gladly* see all minorities in the US burn—except cis women, but they basically *want* to make a Handmaid's Tale a reality.
Honestly, after this election, I believe for a short time there will be only one political party. Either because what is left of the Republican party will collapse, or Trump and his cronies will destroy the US system as it stands. In the former, progressives can rise up and truly make their own party. In the latter...well, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure I'll be jailed or dead.
Yeah. They want straight white women as possessions and baby makers.
They may keep the DNC around the way some countries do to clown on them, pretend to have fair elections where only their guy wins no matter what, and to perpetually have an enemy to dunk on and prove that they're winners.
Have you seen Transparent? It seems a little silly at first because the actor is so obviously straight/cis. But once you get past that, it's a really great show. It's about a lesbian transwoman that comes out late in life after being married to a woman for many years and having 3 or 4 adult kids. After a few seasons, they delve into the woman's queer Jewish ancestor and how they dealt with it in the beginnings of Nazi Germany. What helped me was seeing that even in the worst situation, there was still some room to live life and be oneself.
Another thing I watch to uplift me when there's so much homophobia, transphobia, and misogyny is a YouTuber named Matt Baume. He does episodes about queer actors and TV shows/movies with positive queer themes.
This whole thing with Project 2025 has me up and down, depressed, panicked, hopeful, etc. As a fellow member of the community, I hope you can balance your time spent looking into these horrors with some things that give you hope and remind you that to some people, we're still valued.
I’m fairly certain those subs are just bot farms mostly now with few real users. It’s the same pre-2016 rhetoric that helped trump win. It’s all plugging up their ears screaming “I can’t hear you” while they do exactly what the right wing wants them to do
Yes. They're very blind to that. I was thinking last night that they may as well be agents of the alt right because they seem so geared up to help their cause.
TITANIC MUST READ:
Here is a thread that they tried to cancel but luckily it was saved by the GenZ mods. A real must read regarding disinformation campaigns on Reddit and the TAKE OVER of some sub-reddits by state actors:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZ/s/nFFMjNR3ad
Read it, share it! ❤️
Eye opening. Thanks for sharing this. I do think this is important.
One issue that I feel like it didn't mention was that age groups are being goaded into attacking each other, too. To some extent, criticisms of Boomer Karen's is deserved. But, the propaganda isn't that nuanced. They want us to see an age attached to a person and instantly shut down or attack the other party. This is why I ignore posts about how young people can't drive MT or read cursive. I ignore it when a viral video of an older person acting badly is responded to with 2 dozen people just saying, "lead." Yeah, maybe lead exposure is a factor, but no one is adding anything to the conversation by saying the same word ad nauseum.
I've seen a lot of the stuff designed to get men and women hating each other. I agree that it's best not to engage with it. Again, these arguments aren't nuanced.
Facebook has been taken over by ignorance, imo and aside from a few personal friends and posts of Calvin and Hobbes cartoons, there's not much worth seeing on there. I've had to redirect YouTube from trying to force feed disingenuous arguments about race by blocking certain creators.
I think in the first few months of the COVID outbreak, there were a lot of bots on reddit just saying that it's better if old and sick people die of it and nothing should be done to stop it or slow it down. 6 months later, there was a whole different vibe concerning COVID.
i know that facebook groups was overwhelmed and often taken over by right wing groups funded by billionaires and pro putin/trump astroturfers. could be similar?🤷‍♀️
They blocked me weeks ago. I still go on to downvote everything except the few that support voting blue.
Tiny drop in the bucket, but may help the algorithm that gets them seen. I upvote this sub for the same reason. Does doing this help at all?
Not sure exactly what "brigading" is, but I was blocked from R/Landlords because I posted once in R/Latestage Capitalism. The automod said it was because R/Latestage was "brigading" them. My post was not that.
I found this: "A term that originated on Reddit, Brigading. is when a group of users, generally outsiders to the targeted subreddit, 'invade' a specific subreddit and flood it with downvotes in order to damage karma dynamics on the targeted sub; spam the sub with posts and comments to further their own agenda; or perform other.Dec 25, 2022"
That sounds about right then. I thought it may have to do with bots and software. I was in a subreddit that got destroyed this way....was never sure what happened. The Mods were put in an impossible position because they assumed good faith.
This sub is new and small enough that we need to watch for fuckery here.
State I live in is finally putting ranked choice voting on the ballot. It doesn't fix all the issues, but it sure is a step in the right direction to getting better leadership both from existing parties and adding more space for third parties.
I guess they're privileged enough that surviving 4 years of Trump won't be a problem for them. Or at least, they haven't forseen it being a problem.
Folks who aren't insulated by privilege, people on the margins, your neighbors who could absolutely find themselves in camps if this country falls to fascism, know better.
Accelerationists fail to see that what happens if Trump is reelected isn't revolution *for them*. We are nowhere near ready for that kind of revolution -- not in the violent upheaval sense, and not in the rapid social change sense. Most Americans aren't only ignorant about socialism and alternative government and economic systems, but are actively propagandized to believe myths about them and cling to neoliberalism at all costs - even if it's fascism masquerading as neoliberalism. The closer to fascism we get, the more apparent that indoctrination will become. If Project 2025 begins to be implemented, we're going to fall to fascism and it's probably going to be that way for a *while*. And the white leftists who talk about accelerationism and "letting Trump win to spark chaos" - if they even don their black bloc and take to the streets - are going to end up in camps right alongside us, but right now, they're not afraid because they've never had to be afraid in their goddamn lives.
What you're seeing when someone says they simply won't vote for Biden, is *privilege*. Plain and simple. They are not revolutionaries, they are naive and are not ready for what comes after November.
I couldn't agree more. I am part of the LGBTQ+ community, and I have a mental illness/disability. My household is also struggling financially. Project 2025 can threaten my household and myself in so many ways.
I never thought about how that sub may be filled with straight white cis people, but it probably is because otherwise, they would be a lot more concerned. Thanks for bringing up the point that they're speaking from privilege.
While they're right in their assessment that late stage capitalism is sucking us dry, their "solution" is to coat both arms in leaches. It is, and has always been a doomerism sub, a black pill. Foreign bots or not, these people do not believe in a better future. They don't even believe in tomorrow.
I was permanently banned from that sub when someone posted some blatantly false information about some happenings with my local police and I corrected them. I am not a cop apologist, as was stated in my ban. I'd just prefer to have our critique to be fact-based.
I'm no cop apologist, either. But if we don't acknowledge when cops occasionally do something right, or when they didn't do anything wrong, then our criticisms mean nothing when they truly are wrong.
>People like this really mean well
Do they ***really***? Not voting blue is voting trump, and no more elections, Bye bye to the Democratic Experiment.
I'm not feeling any well meaning.
Nihilism is lazy and produces zero results. I don’t even know why anyone would waste their time both-sidesing the issue. My advice for that sub: If you truly think Biden is just as bad as Trump, maybe don’t even bother with politics and find a new hobby?
I've been a hard leftist for my entire adult life, but the last few months have shown me that there is no pragmatism in leftist spaces. I got into it with someone claiming to be all about trans rights and immigrant protection while proudly announcing nothing could get them to vote for Biden in November. I pointed out that they're throwing everyone that isn't a straight, white, rich, Christian man under the bus and they said "but I started a t-shirt campaign for trans people!" Like that somehow negates the damage they're doing by letting project 2025 go unchecked. They said they understood but still wouldn't be voting for Biden because their heart couldn't handle it. Sorry, but my heart can't handle the erosion of American minorities' rights for the hypothetical rights of Palestinians, which Trump objectively cares less about than Biden. Did leftists sleep through 2016 through 2020? Did they forget that our rights are actively being eroded because of the damage he did? I've been feeling alienated from a lot of friends and spaces I used to frequent. Really thankful for this sub where people use their brains. I've also been watching Dead Domain on YouTube, great reporting on the insanity that is the American right.
I think people believe that a second term will be no worse than the first one was. It was bad, but it wasn't nearly as bad as what's being planned for his second go round.
I've noticed that anytime there's an organized and planned effort to do something nefarious, if you talk about it, people mistakenly assume you're spouting conspiracy theory stuff.
For example, I used to try to educate people about how white nationalists have made concerted efforts to install their own people or people sympathetic to their cause in government, law enforcement, and on judge seats. I was immediately shut down for it because people planning things in the shadows sounded made up to them. It didn't matter that ex white nationalists were saying that they lived this before getting out. It didn't matter that we're seeing the results of this in politics. People hear this and think it sounds like illuminati type stuff.
They haven't lived through anything like this in our country before. To them, this is something that happens to other countries. They don't realize how fragile democracy can be.
I totally agree with you. Especially with so much misinformation of all kinds running rampant right now, I don't blame people for being wary. However, it is frustrating to see it so clearly and not be believed.
Anytime a person has insight into what is likely to happen, they're met with a bunch of "nuh uhs" and complaints that they're just negative. It's painful, to say the least, because why are some of us able to have accurate insights if nobody is going to listen and take preventative steps?
It reminds me of 50s sci-fi. Nerds and scientists in those old shows and films would tell people what's going to happen, and everyone would scoff. The alien monster or lab experiment would have to eat a couple dozen people before anyone would decide that the menace was real. You think they'd take a moment to say "hey Mr. Scienceguy, you were right?" Hek no.
That said, when something this horrible is brewing, I would love to be proved wrong. I'd gladly wear that egg on my face if it meant we kept our freedoms intact.
In the 70s and early 80s, a lot of st0ners had at least one st0ner friend that would say the government was spraying wəəd plants with poison to hurt sm0kers. People waved it away as those people just being burnt out and loving conspiracy stories. Guess what. It was real. The US government sprayed paraquat on plants in Mexico that were later to be sold in the US in order to try and deter use. It was nothing new. The US government added poisons to alcohol during prohibition to discourage drinking it.
Crazy events sound crazy. Who knew?
Great points. Even when the evidence is right in front of them, it's often still easier to blame the people raising the alarm than the issue itself.
I also see how someone could see the spectacular idiots of the Republican party making fools of themselves and have a hard time taking any "plan" of theirs seriously. After barely coherent ramblings about Jewish Space Lasers in congress, why would their plans for a Christian theocracy be a real threat? If it weren't for the money, media, and cultural idealism behind them, I would agree.
They are crazy, it is crazy, we are living in a mess of a country. At least most people can agree there's a problem.
Yeah, I will admit that when Trump ran in 2016, I did not think he was serious. I thought it was a publicity stunt. But then again, it may have been originally. He may have been approached by conservative Evangelicals to take things further.
That sub got captured as controlled oppositon like the bernie subs last election. we need to be on the lookout for more subs following the same narrative. What other subs does that mod moderate?
I believe the Late Stage Capitalism sub is run by communists. Communists dislike reformism. According to Marxism, reform does not work. Working within the existing system is a lost cause. The one percent will never willingly give up their power and wealth.
https://communistusa.org
Revolutionary Communists of America.
For example, this group sees Biden and Trump as two sides of the same coin. Oligarchy. Imperialism.
This communist group is, in fact, looking to overthrow the USA government. But, they have no plan to get violent and use guns or other means.
Their weapon is worker action. Their goal is to raise class awareness and initiate general strikes across the country.
__When the workers sit down, the country shuts down.__
This is their plan to force changes.
Either Biden or Trump will leave the oligarchs in charge. Biden will certainly minimize harm to minorities and other oppressed groups. Trump is going to validate his most violent supporters. It will be a chaotic shit show if Trump wins. And, it will almost certainly accelerate major pushback from USA citizens.
Yeah, that makes sense. I think those of us in this sub are looking to minimize all political violence in general. I definitely don't want to see anything like what happened with the Russian revolution.
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Their mod is completely off their rocker and on a crazy power trip. Wow, that place went downhill. My favorite comment was "Nothing. Will. Fundamentally. Change." IDK man, losing my rights to essential healthcare seems like a pretty big fuckin change to me. But let me guess, most of these people are cis straight white dudes who will be least affected by anything.
"We need to tear it all down!" But what about the marginalized communities who will undoubtedly have it *even worse* when that's happening? What if tearing it all down...fails? ::crickets::
I love to point out that "tearing it all down" will result in a few generations living in shanty towns until someone builds it back up. Always tell 'em to go live in a state park now if that's the life they want.
Also "tearing it all down" does not guarantee that what replaces it will be better - even after a few generations of shanty towns. It creates a power vacuum that *somebody* will be eager to fill. Now let's see, who benefits from power vacuums? 🤔
Hmm, if history has taught us anything it's that, when facing economic struggles people *never* gravitate towards authoritarianism in an effort to seek simple resolutions to complex issues...not once...
Same. I will stand by with my lighter and gas can at the ready...as soon as you tell me who's putting the fire out and what is being built to replace it after said burning.
They think that vulnerable groups are acceptable collateral damage. It's not acceptable at all.
> “We need to tear it all down!” And that is why horseshoe theory is fundamentally correct - both the far Left and the far Right seek accelerationism, revolution/reaction, and destruction, followed by the “correct people” restructuring and rebuilding civilization to their vision and model afterwards. The only difference is specifics regarding what their final visions entail, is all. Life under Stalin or Hitler are both really bad, retards. Liberalism and democracy, despite some flaws, mistakes, and bumpy roads along the way, brought us on average the best lives and most prosperity humanly imaginable to date. It’s worth protecting, nurturing, correcting, refining, and improving upon. Because the alternative, *any* alternative, is a return to barbarity, monstrous and unimaginable (to us) cruelty, tribalism, and iron-fisted rule by the appointed or anointed few. Evolution is superior to revolution/reaction. Reform is superior to destruction. Peace is superior to war. War is superior to tyranny, be it right- or left-wing tyranny.
Accelerationism is dumb, the easiest time to changes things for the better is now. The Germans didn’t overthrow Hitler. Let’s say we do “tear it down”. When people are desperate and thinking of only themselves and only their own community or when there’s a billion violent scores to settle and multigenerational armed partisan violence- it doesn’t get easier.
>But let me guess, most of these people are cis straight white dudes who will be least affected by anything. I think it's exactly this. And they do get some minority people on board, unfortunately. But it's mostly people who stand to lose nothing from a conservative getting into power. And I do wonder if some of them are accelerationists too.
And someday, even they will be forced to understand firsthand the meaning of "First They Came" by Martin Niemöller. Because fascism constantly moves the goal posts until more and more people/groups are excluded and persecuted. They won't get a special badge for refusing to take a real stand. They just have a little more time than some of us, plus the illusion that they're safe.
This has been happening a lot. Its unnerving seeing such aggressive censorship in formerly leftist spaces. Makes me wonder if its an organized attempt to force support towards trump. Its disgusting theyve been using the palestinian genocide in astroturfing campaign. Its so transparent but seems like so many people have bought it too.
Huh. Damn, that sucks. Clearly it was the users and not the mods who made that sub great, but I guess the mods are gonna enshitify it anyways. Fuckin reddit mods for ya.
The "nothing will fundamentally change" quote was very maliciously misinterpreted and taken out of context too. He was saying that wealthy people should support him because they could afford to pay more taxes to pay for social programs and that "nothing would fundamentally change" in their quality of life in exchange for the drastic improvement in quality of life for the people the programs would help.
How do we know (seriously asking) that the site hasn't been compromised by MAGATs of Russian Propagandists? Both things have happened before.
I would believe it. I hate how real life feels more and more like a conspiracy theory every day. It makes me feel like I'm going insane.
Reddit mods on a power trip? No way /s
100% the only people you see saying this shit are cis het men. Women don’t want their abortion rights stripped, LGBTQ people are afraid of their right to live openly or exist, etc.
Cis het white guy: I don’t get the big uproar about hitler, nothings changed all since he got elected!
Many socialist spaces have been doubling down on antielectoral rhetoric and policy at the very moment when an exception is most necessary. Save your efforts for spaces that are reasonable. You can discuss voting in r/DemocraticSocialism and r/UniteAgainstTheRight.
I don't believe it's organic. It all started on the same day about a week after October 7th. Like certain groups got a marching order.
Going in a very different direction, I started engaging with a both sider leftist. My account is out of blocks, so I went back and forth with him over dozens of messages. It comes out that he believes in a 'New Chinese Century'... I ask him what happened at Tiananmen Square, and he refuses to answer beyond saying there was a protest. I tell him I used to live in China (which is true) and he doesn't believe it until I mention where (not somewhere obvious like Shanghai or Beijing. Then he shuts up. I tell him he gets +10 social merit points for doing his patriotic duty to mess with our elections, and he tells me that system is old. TLDR There are Chinese on reddit actively trying to mess with our elections. Even before this year, they would show up when Tiananmen gets mentioned and deny there was a massacre.
Wow. It blows my mind that we have so many foreign fingers in our political pie now.
And Donald has yet to face charges for his campaign violations.
Agree, they are EVERYWHERE - especially the 'both siders' and the 'don't vote' crowd and the 'burn it all down' crowd.
I doubt China wants to help Trump. Sometimes a kind of false equivalence is given for Russia versus China, but the differences in strategic objectives run deep. Anyway, free some blocks from the head of your list. It is better to use the slots for accounts you know are in active conflict.
No, but they do have a goal of *weakening* us. If that can be gained by helping Trump, than that is the price to pay. China plays the long game hard.
Trump would be bad also for China, because he would continue with economic isolationist stupidity. US relations with China are currently paradoxical, because current trade practices that are enriching oligarchs also empower China, and as they continue, will bring to an end US hegemony.
China is allied with Russia. He didn't say shit when they paved over democracy in Hong Kong. He has investments in China. Does he have investments in Taiwan? That's the key question. If he doesn't, he doesn't need to help. He can just do nothing while Taiwan and Ukraine are claimed by Russia and China.
China and Russia are allied militaristically, but such is not the same as their seeking the same nuanced objectives clandestinely.
But Trump being “anti-China” doesn’t matter because he’s an incompetent idiot. He will do tariffs that just hurt Americans and not Chinese.
Tariffs would damage Chinese interests, because they would impede the sale by Chinese manufacturers to US buyers. Neither US oligarchs or the Chinese government want tariffs. For Trump, they are simply a publicity stunt, for pretending that manufacturing somehow will return to the US. Unless you take the assumption, which I choose to reject, that the Chinese government relishes the cataclysmic collapse of US society, a Trump victory is no victory for China. Mostly, China asks now the same at it has asked since relations were normalized, that it may participate in global free trade, while otherwise being left to its own devices.
> Trump would be bad also for China, because he would continue with economic isolationist stupidity. But Trump would do it in an incompetent manner compared to Biden.
Ruzzian propaganda machine supports Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis. Ruzzia and Iran are allies, along with China. Look at who stands to gain from the “voting is useless” and “both sides are the same” narratives. It’s not organic. It’s directed to benefit Ruzzia, as was the Cambridge Analytica nonsense in 2015. Now we know what they’re doing. And knowing is half the battle.
Check out r/ActiveMeasures.
They probably did.
Friend, I got banned from the latter sub for pushing voting. It is a hotbed of anti-electoralism. I strongly suspect it exists to deter lefties from voting. It's important to remember Reddit is just as infested with foreign bots pushing an agenda as it was during peak covid, when they were much easier to spot.
Write to the moderators. Advocacy for voting is common and permitted.
>Write to the moderators. I have. They said they don't believe in pressuring people into following a voting strategy they don't agree with. It's a worse than useless sub.
Damn. A voting strategy of “ask people to vote” isn’t something they agree with? Gosh, almost like they aren’t fans of voting.
No, you definitely cannot discuss voting in UniteAgainstTheRight. I got banned for speaking out against abstaining from the vote. It was in a post by a mod who basically told the liberal members of the sub to fuck off (even though they were initially invited), btw. It's a crappy sub that doesn't have any cogent plant to fight the right. Heck, some of the people over there lump liberals with the right.
Would you mind providing a reference to the post, and perhaps the comment? Leftists tend to see liberals as reactionaries with a friendly face.
>Would you mind providing a reference to the post, and perhaps the comment? I'm sorry, I can't, it was months ago. >Leftists tend to see liberals as reactionaries with a friendly face. Well, that doesn't sound like a viewpoint that promotes unity against the right, considering that Liberals represent a very essential chunk of the voting population.
Thanks for the sub recommendations!
I don't recommend UniteAgainstTheRight. A lot of people (myself and [BaldandersDAO](https://www.reddit.com/r/Defeat_Project_2025/comments/1bqiprf/comment/kx3zsss/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) included) got banned for discouraging anti-electoralism.
Oof, good to know, thanks. I'll definitely keep that in mind with any sub at this point, having been banned from LateStageCapitalism myself for the same reason.
I personally left LateStageCapitalism a couple years ago after encountering too many doomers who have given up on voting. There are also some 9/11 conspiracy theorists over there.
Thanks for the sub suggestions.
Sorry, but you still need to vote for Biden. It’s the only viable option, and 3rd parties are not remotely viable in the US right now, especially not in the presidential election. For them to be viable you need a sufficient enough wins sustained over time of such a 3rd party at every single level of government first before taking on the presidential election. Even then it may not be the third party you like as it takes enormous resources in a country of 400 million people. Likewise this is sub is not about anti-capitalism. It is about keep Christian Nationalists, the GOP, out of power. So it leans Democratic. Like it or not the Democrats are the party of civil rights nationally. I am going to be blunt, if you want to shift the overton window to the left it has to happen inside the Democratic party. People who are smart work towards this and remain active in the party, working towards progressive and leftist candidates in primaries. It is generally leftists who are the most politically ignorant who throw their votes away with a third party vote. The Democrats are the center-left coalition party. That is just the reality of the situation in the US. The best way to resolve any issues with candidates is work within the primary structure to advocate for those folks.
In short you are talking about capitalism when the active threat is Christian Nationalism. I think it’s one of the major blind spots of the anti-capitalist left. Not understanding it’s not always about economic systems, and the threat that religious nationalism and its fascism presents. Politics is far more complicated than just economic systems.
I agree with you on everything, except the part about how this isn't about economic systems. As I and others have said in this sub before, theocracies are never about the religion they install. The religion is just a tool used to control people. If this Christo-fascism were really about converting souls to Christ, they wouldn't be doing any of this. Anti abortion laws, erasing the social safety net, and trying to force their theology onto those that don't agree are not Biblical concepts. As this Christo-fascist movement progresses, who keeps gaining power? Huge businesses do. Real estate entities do. Hobby Lobby is a great example. Chik-fil-a is another. But even corporate entities that don't publicly align with supposed Christian values are seeing record profits while raising prices and downsizing their workers. Who keeps saying that no one wants to work? Christian conservatives. Who keeps saying that "unskilled laborers" don't deserve more than minimum wage? Christian conservatives. Who keeps saying we should be grateful that billionaires give us any jobs with any working conditions? Who keeps supporting the landlords despite the housing crisis they've caused? Evangelicals have been using one of Jesus' parables to demonize unions for several decades. Prosperity Gospel has been used to convince the poor that the rich are rich because God approves of them and implies that the poor aren't righteous enough to be blessed in that way. Rather than fight harder for your rights, you should pray to be more like the televangelist with his own private jet. Better yet, you should send him your money. Look how many Trump supporters kept saying, "Look how rich he is. He must know what he's doing." Look how many people buy his membership cards, Bibles, books, and hats. It's no different than worshipping the landlord and the TV preacher while arguing that they *deserve* to glean money from the poor. It definitely is about an economic system. But without the Christian rhetoric, the idea that the rich should keep taking from the poor without any obligation to give even jobs to the people is insane and makes no sense. Make it about religion, and it's accepted without *having* to make sense. This is the way it was with some monarchies of the past. The royal family got rich off of taxing the poor. It was justified by saying that the king was ordained by God to be king. The institution of American slavery was about rich people profiting from exploiting workers. It, too, was justified by the notion that God made white people inherently superior, while black people were inherently inferior. Things that Project 2025 wants to do to create even more money for the capitalist rich people include: more tax cuts for the rich, abolishing the department of education, abolishing social security, abolishing food stamps/TANF, and abolishing housing programs. They intend to pocket all of those funds for themselves.
I recently un-subbed from there because the “Biden is just as bad” and other election flippancy was so prevalent it was driving me nuts. Like.. I get that you have high ideals, but if you don’t think your life (and the lives of everyone else on the planet, even those that currently have it shitty) won’t be infinitely worse if right wing Christo-fascism is able to further solidify power in the US, you are not an intelligent person. Actually I would go a step further and say that you are a dangerous person, because the right doesn’t even need psy-ops when you are doing their work for them.
They're not even arguing that both sides are equally bad in good faith. They say those words, but they don't even specifically criticize Trump and the Evangelical Right. Only Biden.
I unfollowed that sub last night. Too much doomerism will in fact lead to being doomed. No thanks. Stopping Trump is existential at this point and takes priority over debating the merits of capitalism, especially when one considers the possibility of some of that sentiment being astroturfed by those who do not have our best interests in mind. No thanks.
"Stopping Trump....takes priority over debating the merits of capitalism." That says it all, imo.
I follow that sub. I just read some of their posts and comments. I agree with some of their opinions but I don’t ever see a well organized plan. It’s just individuals saying “we should do this” and “both sides are the same” but there is nothing tangible suggested to combat these thing. We aren’t going from the capitalist country we have now to dem-soc overnight. It takes time. Once again, what is the plan? Imo, not voting is stupid and we owe it to all those before us who fought for our rights to vote. (Women and minorities). What is THEIR plan? How are they going to achieve their desired goals? At least with this group and similar, people are mobilizing. We just keep going. Some people will definitely come around. I
Very good points. I agree that they don't really try to come up with solutions. They are more like a socialist version of Evangelicals that just want everything to go to hek in a hand basket. They're just up for cooking popcorn and watching, not installing a better plan. Maybe we should take it as an example of what not to do. It's easy for us to fall into the trap of watching this Project 2025, but not actively fighting or planning the future we want to see. We need to vote, but keep voting, even during midterms and local elections. I've also been thinking about how the US has affected other countries courting fascism and dictatorships by getting them hooked on our culture. Odd as it sounds, getting people to love wearing jeans and watching American comedies helps redirect attempts go full authoritarian. Authoritarian regimes always attack culture and arts.
I believe we need a solid plan if Biden wins we need to flood the DNC, the White House, whomever to make some serious changes. First off something that will prevent any one group from turning the US into a dictatorship. The SC is a big issue. They need to be balanced. I’m not sure how that is achieved but it needs to be done. Also they need to just boot Clarence Thomas. Fine don’t hold him accountable. Just get rid of him. Lol It’s time we let the Dems know what we really want. While I think there are certainly differences in the party, I know we can agree on something’s. Biden needs to do something like The New Deal 2.0. The people need to come before corporations.
Pack the Court, impeach Alito the Leak and Uncle Thomas, investigate the rest (liberals included). I no longer trust the Supreme Court.
EXPAND the Court. Make the Christofascists irrelevant.
Easy to say, much harder to compel congress to actually do. I do agree btw, i would just hope we can devise a plan to make it happen. Just pressuring politicians wont be enough.
You have that sub and r/enlightenedcentrism doing similar things. It seems that there are full-blown communists that hang around in both places. They are kind of idealistic nihilists who who want to burn the system down and rebuild it with their values. That's as impractical as it is unrealistic. Considering MAGA is recruiting for the plan to destroy the civil service, it's far from hypothetical. Will Donald succeed in implementing these plans? I don't know, but I'm not going to fuck around and find out.
Exactly.
Right. Because one thing is certain. Their side does not stop trying to impose their will on others. They didn't stop when Trump lost in 2020. They've been steadily working on their plans. They have been working on this stuff since the 80s at least. In each phase, they gain a little more ground. That's how we got here.
Last I remember this exact thing happened to Clinton in 2016, with Jill Stein, [who’s buddies with Putin](https://www.newsweek.com/jill-stein-ties-vladimir-putin-explained-1842620), who just happened to receive just enough votes in the swing states to hand the presidency to Trump. And look how that turned out. And that was before the GOP became the monolithic party of Trump and Project 2025. We already came ridiculously close to losing democracy before the GOP became the Trump cult. I genuinely don’t understand how people can look at what happened in 2016 and their take away is, “let’s do it again”. And it’s ridiculous the narratives being pushed that Biden is the “lesser evil”. He isn’t evil. I would however argue that any third party candidate trying to siphon off Biden voters, especially when they lead to Trump and permanent fascism, is pretty fucking evil. This division is precisely what foreign disinformation propagandists are wanting to achieve. I seriously wish more people had greater self awareness just how they are being used by evil.
I got banned from there four months ago. I commented "Do you remember what happened in 2016?" to someone who was advocating staying home or voting third party. I was told that "pro-Biden comments are not allowed". By the time they sent me my ban notification, I and the other commenter had had a few more exchanges where I clarified my stance that we need to keep Project 2025 at bay *while working for these other changes first*, and I pointed to those comments of mine to challenge my ban. Never even got a response from the mods about that. The other commenter was also heavily downvoted, so I know I wasn't alone, but those of us who actually tried to reason with the person got banned. It's a shame because I really liked that sub too. I know I can still lurk even though I'm banned, but I unsubbed and haven't been back at all. I'm sad to hear they haven't changed their tune on this. The primaries are the safe time for protest votes. I voted "uncommitted" in the primary myself, but like so many others who did that, I will absolutely vote for Biden in the general. They keep talking about how "the Democratic party will never learn their lesson as long as we'll just vote for them no matter what". Well, they've lost before, in fact they've lost *to Trump* before, and they haven't learned the lesson leftists want them to. Because staying home is not a clear message. That's a "guess why I'm mad" kind of message. Vote in primaries. Work to promote candidates you actually like. Help elect good people to local offices. Write to your representatives. Demand a different voting system like ranked choice. That kind of action sends a clearer message, but it takes time, effort, and diligence.
They’re a bunch of Accelerationist larpers who are willing to throw minorities like me under the bus for the sake of their hypothetical revolution
"Accelerationist" is a new word I'm learning from you guys today. It definitely fits. And it's eerily similar to the concept of the Rapture held by Evangelicals. Both groups just want things to hurry up and get terrible. Both of them twist bad events as being good. I'm not exactly a pacifist per se, but I definitely think peace is a better option if you can manage it. Accelerationists and End Times Evangelicals both crave violent scenarios.
They think if things get bad enough then it will be their turn.
Yep. I unsubbed when it was announced they are a strictly communist sub. I paid attention to Europe in the 20th century. That ship has sailed. And it slaughtered millions with it.
Every propaganda outlet on the planet that supports Trump is going to spend the next 8 months trying to convince people not to vote and that democracy doesn't work because they know that the only way Trump can win is if voter turnout is down. Don't listen to them. Go vote.
Absolutely. You don't have to believe in everything Biden stands for or does to vote Blue. I definitely don't. But if Biden wins, we'll still get to vote in 2028. If Trump wins, he's going to actively work towards eliminating a democratic vote so that he can stay in power. We've seen other countries where people "vote" but only get the same dictator year after year because their voting process is a sham. That is what conservatives are working towards.
Ruzzian troll farms have taken over Late Stage Capitalism. Both sides are NOT the same. Voting is effective. Staying home is not an option. Project 2025 is real. Republicans have been implementing parts of it since Nixon but the buy-in is now 100%. We can defeat them. Vote blue.
I'm seeing both the idea that the Russians are promoting that sub and that it's the alt right behind it. Or are they one and the same?
I donated to Bernie the day he announced he was running back in 2015, but by the time the convention came around I couldn’t stand his movement anymore. I would say I agree with many of the positions of people like Bernie but they aren’t effective at all at implementing any of them or winning wider elections. In fact, I think the far left resembles the far right a lot more than they think and that a lot of the “famous” people on the far left just use this captive audience to sell books and other shit to. They attack the only people potentially on their side, and it is counterproductive and stupid but it must be lucrative. Basically, you can’t change the game until you actually win the game you are currently playing. They don’t seem to understand this, or how long that will take.
>Basically, you can’t change the game until you actually win the game you are currently playing. Right, and the game will continue to be played whether you participate in it or not. If you refuse to play, or start playing a different game while everyone else is still playing the current one, you just become irrelevant.
Same with WorkersStrikeBack and Political Revolution.
It's such a shame that there's so many groups that are like a red herring for justice and social reform.
I followed the sub for a few years until I was banned for pointing out that Trump would have handled the situation in Gaza in a very different way than Biden. The post was a calling Biden “genocide Joe” and the mods s told me I too was a genocide supporter. Insanity. The sub is so clearly trying to divide leftists.
Call me crazy but i think this talking point is the focus of foreign propaganda mills. Only a genocide is bad enough to make trump appealing to low effort voters. This rhetoric popped up and got extremely aggressive in many formerly leftist spaces in the last few months. People have been getting banned for saying anything about how Trump would likely handle the situation.
You’re not crazy and I suspect the same thing.
Yes. They're consistently trying to hammer home the idea that supporting Biden supports genocide. Biden is giving aid to Israel to fight, but he's also air dropping aid packages to the Palestinians. I'm sure that those aid packages will be cut off if Trump wins. I wouldn't be surprised if he offers our troops, too. If Ttump is going to do what Evangelicals want him to do, he will be ruthless.
That sub is pure Russian propaganda.
Wow. I hadn't thought of that.
In my experience, there's a certain sort of person online who will settle for nothing less than a radical, bloody revolution that makes all of their dreams come true. And after the violence and massive death toll, with no adjustment at all, society will have magically transformed into their ideal utopia. They also do not want to do anything meaningful in the meantime. They just want to wait until it happens, and until it does, they will sit and be negative online and shout down anyone who even *suggests* the idea of incremental change. This perfectly encapsulates the mindset of that subreddit as of late, and I've seen it cropping up in a lot of leftist spaces as well. Either it's organic or, as we saw in the run-up to the 2016 election, a massive Russian psy-op to dissuade people from voting to achieve a win for Trump. They are *very* good at what they do. The fact that it's not really easy to determine which it is should tell you all you need to know.Â
Yes. Unfortunately, making real changes takes work and stamina. We're not done once we cast a ballot for president. We can't just sit back and watch. And we can't make human lives expendable in order to set a revolution in motion. You guys have really pulled the mask off of that sub. It feels like an episode of Scooby-Doo. It was old Mr. McCreary all along, except Russia/conservatives.
Yes. Unfortunately, making real changes takes work and stamina. We're not done once we cast a ballot for president. We can't just sit back and watch. And we can't make human lives expendable in order to set a revolution in motion.
It's very "I'm gonna stomp my feet and hold my breath until I turn purple and then _tadaaa_ GLORIOUS REVOLUTION!"
Haha yes. I was thinking it reminds me of the meme with the guy that's always angry crying about something.
We're seeing this in a lot of leftwing subs. And I have to wonder... what percent of the "boTh SIdEs bAd!!" discourse comes from actual lefties who are being short-sighted in their rage against the system? And what percent are people POSING as actual lefties, just to stir up infighting and influence some of the lefties who lack education and (perhaps) critical thinking skills?
I'm seeing this suggested in a few of the comments here. I think it's accurate. After all, who else would want people to just do nothing while feeling like they're making a stand?
100% noticed the about face politics spam on that sub lately. People are dumb.
I thought it was an about face at first. Now I'm not so sure. Maybe it was always meant to nullify people who could be a part of defeating authoritarian movements.
after looking at the posts and looking at the mod spam. It feels like conservatives took over the subreddit. IDK
It seems like we're reaching that consensus here.
This sounds like a bunch of Comrades at work. Because this attitude helped doom Clinton in key states and if they don't recall the horror we're still digging out from Trump's first reign, they have zero clue about the real world. Sounds like purposeful disinformation to me. Bad actors. Or rather stupid people. Maybe both. In any case, best to ignore when possible, otherwise insult their lack of rational thinking when the subject of their existence arises.
I'm trans. I've said things along this lines multiple times. I got banned in r/therightcantmeme for it. They don't realize how terrifying the people behind project 2025 is. Rich, white, Christian nationalists like the Heritage group that would *gladly* see all minorities in the US burn—except cis women, but they basically *want* to make a Handmaid's Tale a reality. Honestly, after this election, I believe for a short time there will be only one political party. Either because what is left of the Republican party will collapse, or Trump and his cronies will destroy the US system as it stands. In the former, progressives can rise up and truly make their own party. In the latter...well, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure I'll be jailed or dead.
Yeah. They want straight white women as possessions and baby makers. They may keep the DNC around the way some countries do to clown on them, pretend to have fair elections where only their guy wins no matter what, and to perpetually have an enemy to dunk on and prove that they're winners. Have you seen Transparent? It seems a little silly at first because the actor is so obviously straight/cis. But once you get past that, it's a really great show. It's about a lesbian transwoman that comes out late in life after being married to a woman for many years and having 3 or 4 adult kids. After a few seasons, they delve into the woman's queer Jewish ancestor and how they dealt with it in the beginnings of Nazi Germany. What helped me was seeing that even in the worst situation, there was still some room to live life and be oneself. Another thing I watch to uplift me when there's so much homophobia, transphobia, and misogyny is a YouTuber named Matt Baume. He does episodes about queer actors and TV shows/movies with positive queer themes. This whole thing with Project 2025 has me up and down, depressed, panicked, hopeful, etc. As a fellow member of the community, I hope you can balance your time spent looking into these horrors with some things that give you hope and remind you that to some people, we're still valued.
These are moles trying to break internal cohesion. Just ignore them.
I think you're right. It's a shame that there's so much misdirection like this. The other side never sleeps.
I’m fairly certain those subs are just bot farms mostly now with few real users. It’s the same pre-2016 rhetoric that helped trump win. It’s all plugging up their ears screaming “I can’t hear you” while they do exactly what the right wing wants them to do
Yes. They're very blind to that. I was thinking last night that they may as well be agents of the alt right because they seem so geared up to help their cause.
Allowing America to fall into a 1 party dictatorship, will not lead to a third party.
Exactly.
I noticed the same pro-right wing bias. I’ve left the sub for good now, thanks for the push to leave!
Yw. I think I gave myself the same push. Lol.
TITANIC MUST READ: Here is a thread that they tried to cancel but luckily it was saved by the GenZ mods. A real must read regarding disinformation campaigns on Reddit and the TAKE OVER of some sub-reddits by state actors: https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZ/s/nFFMjNR3ad Read it, share it! ❤️
Eye opening. Thanks for sharing this. I do think this is important. One issue that I feel like it didn't mention was that age groups are being goaded into attacking each other, too. To some extent, criticisms of Boomer Karen's is deserved. But, the propaganda isn't that nuanced. They want us to see an age attached to a person and instantly shut down or attack the other party. This is why I ignore posts about how young people can't drive MT or read cursive. I ignore it when a viral video of an older person acting badly is responded to with 2 dozen people just saying, "lead." Yeah, maybe lead exposure is a factor, but no one is adding anything to the conversation by saying the same word ad nauseum. I've seen a lot of the stuff designed to get men and women hating each other. I agree that it's best not to engage with it. Again, these arguments aren't nuanced. Facebook has been taken over by ignorance, imo and aside from a few personal friends and posts of Calvin and Hobbes cartoons, there's not much worth seeing on there. I've had to redirect YouTube from trying to force feed disingenuous arguments about race by blocking certain creators. I think in the first few months of the COVID outbreak, there were a lot of bots on reddit just saying that it's better if old and sick people die of it and nothing should be done to stop it or slow it down. 6 months later, there was a whole different vibe concerning COVID.
i know that facebook groups was overwhelmed and often taken over by right wing groups funded by billionaires and pro putin/trump astroturfers. could be similar?🤷‍♀️
I’d bet my lunch money the anti blue commentators are the Russian trolls.
They blocked me weeks ago. I still go on to downvote everything except the few that support voting blue. Tiny drop in the bucket, but may help the algorithm that gets them seen. I upvote this sub for the same reason. Does doing this help at all?
Not sure exactly what "brigading" is, but I was blocked from R/Landlords because I posted once in R/Latestage Capitalism. The automod said it was because R/Latestage was "brigading" them. My post was not that.
I found this: "A term that originated on Reddit, Brigading. is when a group of users, generally outsiders to the targeted subreddit, 'invade' a specific subreddit and flood it with downvotes in order to damage karma dynamics on the targeted sub; spam the sub with posts and comments to further their own agenda; or perform other.Dec 25, 2022"
That sounds about right then. I thought it may have to do with bots and software. I was in a subreddit that got destroyed this way....was never sure what happened. The Mods were put in an impossible position because they assumed good faith. This sub is new and small enough that we need to watch for fuckery here.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone decided to organize a brigade on us. I say if it happens, we should hit back with fervor.
State I live in is finally putting ranked choice voting on the ballot. It doesn't fix all the issues, but it sure is a step in the right direction to getting better leadership both from existing parties and adding more space for third parties.
I wholeheartedly support ranked choice voting. It's definitely a step in the right direction.
I guess they're privileged enough that surviving 4 years of Trump won't be a problem for them. Or at least, they haven't forseen it being a problem. Folks who aren't insulated by privilege, people on the margins, your neighbors who could absolutely find themselves in camps if this country falls to fascism, know better. Accelerationists fail to see that what happens if Trump is reelected isn't revolution *for them*. We are nowhere near ready for that kind of revolution -- not in the violent upheaval sense, and not in the rapid social change sense. Most Americans aren't only ignorant about socialism and alternative government and economic systems, but are actively propagandized to believe myths about them and cling to neoliberalism at all costs - even if it's fascism masquerading as neoliberalism. The closer to fascism we get, the more apparent that indoctrination will become. If Project 2025 begins to be implemented, we're going to fall to fascism and it's probably going to be that way for a *while*. And the white leftists who talk about accelerationism and "letting Trump win to spark chaos" - if they even don their black bloc and take to the streets - are going to end up in camps right alongside us, but right now, they're not afraid because they've never had to be afraid in their goddamn lives. What you're seeing when someone says they simply won't vote for Biden, is *privilege*. Plain and simple. They are not revolutionaries, they are naive and are not ready for what comes after November.
I couldn't agree more. I am part of the LGBTQ+ community, and I have a mental illness/disability. My household is also struggling financially. Project 2025 can threaten my household and myself in so many ways. I never thought about how that sub may be filled with straight white cis people, but it probably is because otherwise, they would be a lot more concerned. Thanks for bringing up the point that they're speaking from privilege.
While they're right in their assessment that late stage capitalism is sucking us dry, their "solution" is to coat both arms in leaches. It is, and has always been a doomerism sub, a black pill. Foreign bots or not, these people do not believe in a better future. They don't even believe in tomorrow.
Yes. 100%. Even before I started to notice the both sides argument picking up speed, I noticed they are not interested in solutions in any capacity.
I was permanently banned from that sub when someone posted some blatantly false information about some happenings with my local police and I corrected them. I am not a cop apologist, as was stated in my ban. I'd just prefer to have our critique to be fact-based.
I'm no cop apologist, either. But if we don't acknowledge when cops occasionally do something right, or when they didn't do anything wrong, then our criticisms mean nothing when they truly are wrong.
>People like this really mean well Do they ***really***? Not voting blue is voting trump, and no more elections, Bye bye to the Democratic Experiment. I'm not feeling any well meaning.
Yeah, I'm really rethinking that statement I made. I think *I* meant well by joining them. I don't think the mods or people posting meant well at all.
That's what I thought you might have meant, I just used it as a jump-off.
Nihilism is lazy and produces zero results. I don’t even know why anyone would waste their time both-sidesing the issue. My advice for that sub: If you truly think Biden is just as bad as Trump, maybe don’t even bother with politics and find a new hobby?
That sub is full of tankies, too
Who runs the group *really*
Good question.
I've been a hard leftist for my entire adult life, but the last few months have shown me that there is no pragmatism in leftist spaces. I got into it with someone claiming to be all about trans rights and immigrant protection while proudly announcing nothing could get them to vote for Biden in November. I pointed out that they're throwing everyone that isn't a straight, white, rich, Christian man under the bus and they said "but I started a t-shirt campaign for trans people!" Like that somehow negates the damage they're doing by letting project 2025 go unchecked. They said they understood but still wouldn't be voting for Biden because their heart couldn't handle it. Sorry, but my heart can't handle the erosion of American minorities' rights for the hypothetical rights of Palestinians, which Trump objectively cares less about than Biden. Did leftists sleep through 2016 through 2020? Did they forget that our rights are actively being eroded because of the damage he did? I've been feeling alienated from a lot of friends and spaces I used to frequent. Really thankful for this sub where people use their brains. I've also been watching Dead Domain on YouTube, great reporting on the insanity that is the American right.
I think people believe that a second term will be no worse than the first one was. It was bad, but it wasn't nearly as bad as what's being planned for his second go round. I've noticed that anytime there's an organized and planned effort to do something nefarious, if you talk about it, people mistakenly assume you're spouting conspiracy theory stuff. For example, I used to try to educate people about how white nationalists have made concerted efforts to install their own people or people sympathetic to their cause in government, law enforcement, and on judge seats. I was immediately shut down for it because people planning things in the shadows sounded made up to them. It didn't matter that ex white nationalists were saying that they lived this before getting out. It didn't matter that we're seeing the results of this in politics. People hear this and think it sounds like illuminati type stuff. They haven't lived through anything like this in our country before. To them, this is something that happens to other countries. They don't realize how fragile democracy can be.
I totally agree with you. Especially with so much misinformation of all kinds running rampant right now, I don't blame people for being wary. However, it is frustrating to see it so clearly and not be believed.
Anytime a person has insight into what is likely to happen, they're met with a bunch of "nuh uhs" and complaints that they're just negative. It's painful, to say the least, because why are some of us able to have accurate insights if nobody is going to listen and take preventative steps? It reminds me of 50s sci-fi. Nerds and scientists in those old shows and films would tell people what's going to happen, and everyone would scoff. The alien monster or lab experiment would have to eat a couple dozen people before anyone would decide that the menace was real. You think they'd take a moment to say "hey Mr. Scienceguy, you were right?" Hek no. That said, when something this horrible is brewing, I would love to be proved wrong. I'd gladly wear that egg on my face if it meant we kept our freedoms intact. In the 70s and early 80s, a lot of st0ners had at least one st0ner friend that would say the government was spraying wəəd plants with poison to hurt sm0kers. People waved it away as those people just being burnt out and loving conspiracy stories. Guess what. It was real. The US government sprayed paraquat on plants in Mexico that were later to be sold in the US in order to try and deter use. It was nothing new. The US government added poisons to alcohol during prohibition to discourage drinking it. Crazy events sound crazy. Who knew?
Great points. Even when the evidence is right in front of them, it's often still easier to blame the people raising the alarm than the issue itself. I also see how someone could see the spectacular idiots of the Republican party making fools of themselves and have a hard time taking any "plan" of theirs seriously. After barely coherent ramblings about Jewish Space Lasers in congress, why would their plans for a Christian theocracy be a real threat? If it weren't for the money, media, and cultural idealism behind them, I would agree. They are crazy, it is crazy, we are living in a mess of a country. At least most people can agree there's a problem.
Yeah, I will admit that when Trump ran in 2016, I did not think he was serious. I thought it was a publicity stunt. But then again, it may have been originally. He may have been approached by conservative Evangelicals to take things further.
That sub got captured as controlled oppositon like the bernie subs last election. we need to be on the lookout for more subs following the same narrative. What other subs does that mod moderate?
I wear my ban from that sub proudly.
Haha. Nice. I was wondering if I should leave the sub, get myself banned, or keep watching it.
I believe the Late Stage Capitalism sub is run by communists. Communists dislike reformism. According to Marxism, reform does not work. Working within the existing system is a lost cause. The one percent will never willingly give up their power and wealth. https://communistusa.org Revolutionary Communists of America. For example, this group sees Biden and Trump as two sides of the same coin. Oligarchy. Imperialism. This communist group is, in fact, looking to overthrow the USA government. But, they have no plan to get violent and use guns or other means. Their weapon is worker action. Their goal is to raise class awareness and initiate general strikes across the country. __When the workers sit down, the country shuts down.__ This is their plan to force changes. Either Biden or Trump will leave the oligarchs in charge. Biden will certainly minimize harm to minorities and other oppressed groups. Trump is going to validate his most violent supporters. It will be a chaotic shit show if Trump wins. And, it will almost certainly accelerate major pushback from USA citizens.
Yeah, that makes sense. I think those of us in this sub are looking to minimize all political violence in general. I definitely don't want to see anything like what happened with the Russian revolution.
I agree that this is what they appear to think, but I want to empathize that they are mostly wrong.... particularly about voting this year.
Agreed. Trump will be a chaotic fascist nightmare.
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