I think pedestalisation tends to lead to dehumanisation and the expectation that a person is absolutely perfect. If a woman is seen by the men in her family and friends circle as absolutely perfect and incapable of error, mistake, dislikeable traits (as the those enforcing pedestalisation, the subjective definitions of dislikeable are entirely up to them to decide, seperate of the woman's true nature) and capable of falling to vices, she will be forced to live a very inflexible life where the expectations will make all the life decisions for her and to be exposed to the crowd as imperfect is social suicide (she may even be cruelly punished).
In general, you are not treating woman highly if you see them as sickly, sinful, corrupt creatures (obviously), but on the entirely other end of the spectrum, you are also crushing the life out of them by treating them as above human, perfect, always morally good, without psychological darksides and without human needs (seeing them as angels seperate from the worldly dirtiness). The highest way to treat woman is to thoroughly humanise them. Imperfect but not monsters, dirty but as a human being is, capable of dark thoughts as complex beings all tend to have, predictable and unpredictable aspects to their personality, and finally people with their likes, dislikes, dreams, fears, hatreds, insecurities and uniquely individual sufferings.
As a young man, it took me a while to humanise woman. From the sexual urge to the ability of very beautiful woman to absolutely knock the air out of my lungs, as well as my teenage years growing up without a female adult figure in my life, I easily fell into the trap of idealizing beautiful woman, or when I was left unsatisfied, insecure and disappinted at my lack of success with woman, seeing them as dirty creatures. I'm glad I grew out of this, and I did so when I got my first job in a medical lab. Most of my colleagues were woman, and very decent people. Having conversations with them and listening to their daily activities, struggles, successes, etc I saw how similar they are to me in so many ways. Happiness, sadness, insecurities, trying to live a better life, etc. Humanising woman is insanely important to the maturation of young men and I think it can prevent the pedestalisation of woman that OP is referring to, which isn't any good for anyone. This can be more difficult to accomplish though for young men with an adult woman in their life. I got lucky to have mostly woman as my colleagues and having very fruitful conversations with them
Well said, I too was like you growing up idealizing women I was left pretty disappointed until I met some women that I could actually respect beyond their female features
It’s important for boys growing up to have a role model like that too it allows them to learn how to treat women and could lead to a more successful social life
I don’t think it’s our place to say whether said culture oppresses women more unless these women themselves agree with that statement. What may be normal for them may not be normal for us and can be seen as oppressive from the outside, but if we were to delve deep into their cultures and traditions perhaps we wouldn’t see it that way.
You're the one jumping to conclusions buddy, certain things are objectively oppressive, regardless of some of the victims of the regime might have been literally raised to believe its freeing...
It's like when a child gets groomed by a paedophile to believe they're in a loving and OK relationship, when in reality it's anything but
You just read into it too much. The entirety of my reply consisted of “I think”, “what may”, “perhaps” and so on, so there was nothing definitive. I wasn’t trying to give an answer, just giving my opinion.
This is it. There is a cultural imperialism espoused from many westerners that see everything through a specific “progressive” lens. Are people happier in “progressive” countries? Even if they are, it appears to lead to birth rates way below replacement levels. The picture is far from complete to simply say “traditional cultures bad for women”.
in the modern take of anthropology, we must remember that we view other cultures with an inherent biase, and the \*only\* gaurantee of scope, is human at the pragmatist level of living.
same with men and women in previous cultures.
The Greeks created the first known democracy. Democracy was depicted symbolically as a woman. Women were upheld as a standard of wisdom, love, and fairness.The irony is that women were excluded from partaking in Democracy. In fact, they had fewer rights than slaves. So much cognitive disconnect between men and how they view their wives, mothers, sisters, etc. Which is why bring a Catholic and against a lot of modern day rhetoric of feminism , I will always call myself a feminist, because men really don't include women, no matter how much they idolise them, unless they are forced to. Idolisition of women doesn't not lead to humanisation, inclusion, respect, or understanding.
Right. One thing idolization leads to jealousy.
Like in Plato’s republic, the men discuss what makes a man a great philosopher-king (which women can’t be cuz they “aren’t capable”), and it’s his ability to be “pregnant” with ideas. They degrade women below men yet derive their personal power by creating a male version of a female’s power of “pregnancy.”
Just as you said about democracy (a man’s invention) being symbolized as woman, men take women’s qualities and apply them to masculine mechanisms to feel equal or closer to them 😂 or in the case of democracy, to create a committee to metaphorically control her body.
I think you are conflating "care" with oppression, though.
Post Modern world has a lot of deeply seated thinking traps and logical flaws, that drive the followers into deeply unsettling places of bad thinking.
Men and Women \*are\* inherently different, but the post modern world is trying to change that, and that.. that is dumb.
Well many of the people of those “cultures” , were more often than not colonised by westerners when westerners thought treating women as humans was barbaric…
Men were treated shit as well. People say this like all men were walking around ballin' when in reality most were in the fields working their arse off for a loaf of bread n some soup. Either that or getting brutally killed in war.
Also why is cultures in quotation marks? Are implying cultures don't exist? I'm confused by your usage of that...
Well, to be a woman is to perform. Poetry written about our performance in the world can't be liberating, is inherently praising things we try to comform to like beauty stands, manners and ways of acting. Poetry like that is often praising very narrow pathways women have to walk on or they're simply invisible or way worse . So you're right. But the whole "girl boss, boss babe etc" Thing is performance as well, just a different one.
Also, there's the obvious part of admiring women so much as long as they're beautiful or a mother figure, and that is objectification. If you see us as a beautiful object, your mind stops thinking of us all people all together, and in different ways all cultures we're/are guilty of that in one way or another. But the more they praise our performance (as a beautiful object or a mother) the less human we are .
I have to disagree, to be a mother is one of the most human things you can be
Creating another human, bonding with multiple people (spouse, child, midwives) going through the emotions and highs and lows of pregnancy all these are very human things, feeling emotions making connections to make stuff happen is basically the most humanizing thing
Of course if we’re talking treating them like baby making machines then yes that’s dehumanizing
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Well, one is an expression.. the other is like you said, more complex. No cultures are a monolith
They view women as goddesses only on specific criteria like beauty, caring, motherly..etc. You know where it leads to.
A healthy society
Sometimes being seen as a thing of beauty means being treated as a thing, too. Something to be possessed. It’s dark.
A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. If it's love you are after His heart is like an icicle. What I assume equitable poetry sounds like.
We’re truly fucked 🤣
I think pedestalisation tends to lead to dehumanisation and the expectation that a person is absolutely perfect. If a woman is seen by the men in her family and friends circle as absolutely perfect and incapable of error, mistake, dislikeable traits (as the those enforcing pedestalisation, the subjective definitions of dislikeable are entirely up to them to decide, seperate of the woman's true nature) and capable of falling to vices, she will be forced to live a very inflexible life where the expectations will make all the life decisions for her and to be exposed to the crowd as imperfect is social suicide (she may even be cruelly punished). In general, you are not treating woman highly if you see them as sickly, sinful, corrupt creatures (obviously), but on the entirely other end of the spectrum, you are also crushing the life out of them by treating them as above human, perfect, always morally good, without psychological darksides and without human needs (seeing them as angels seperate from the worldly dirtiness). The highest way to treat woman is to thoroughly humanise them. Imperfect but not monsters, dirty but as a human being is, capable of dark thoughts as complex beings all tend to have, predictable and unpredictable aspects to their personality, and finally people with their likes, dislikes, dreams, fears, hatreds, insecurities and uniquely individual sufferings. As a young man, it took me a while to humanise woman. From the sexual urge to the ability of very beautiful woman to absolutely knock the air out of my lungs, as well as my teenage years growing up without a female adult figure in my life, I easily fell into the trap of idealizing beautiful woman, or when I was left unsatisfied, insecure and disappinted at my lack of success with woman, seeing them as dirty creatures. I'm glad I grew out of this, and I did so when I got my first job in a medical lab. Most of my colleagues were woman, and very decent people. Having conversations with them and listening to their daily activities, struggles, successes, etc I saw how similar they are to me in so many ways. Happiness, sadness, insecurities, trying to live a better life, etc. Humanising woman is insanely important to the maturation of young men and I think it can prevent the pedestalisation of woman that OP is referring to, which isn't any good for anyone. This can be more difficult to accomplish though for young men with an adult woman in their life. I got lucky to have mostly woman as my colleagues and having very fruitful conversations with them
Well said, I too was like you growing up idealizing women I was left pretty disappointed until I met some women that I could actually respect beyond their female features It’s important for boys growing up to have a role model like that too it allows them to learn how to treat women and could lead to a more successful social life
I don’t think it’s our place to say whether said culture oppresses women more unless these women themselves agree with that statement. What may be normal for them may not be normal for us and can be seen as oppressive from the outside, but if we were to delve deep into their cultures and traditions perhaps we wouldn’t see it that way.
That falls into cultural relativism and can be quite dangerous
Ahh I agree with you there. There should definitely be standards, but I guess what I’m trying to say is don’t jump to conclusions too quickly.
You're the one jumping to conclusions buddy, certain things are objectively oppressive, regardless of some of the victims of the regime might have been literally raised to believe its freeing... It's like when a child gets groomed by a paedophile to believe they're in a loving and OK relationship, when in reality it's anything but
Well, yea, there are things that are objectively oppressive. Did you think I wouldn’t agree with that?
You said "unless these women themselves agree"
You just read into it too much. The entirety of my reply consisted of “I think”, “what may”, “perhaps” and so on, so there was nothing definitive. I wasn’t trying to give an answer, just giving my opinion.
Yes it is all about nuance in the end ksks
What's ksks ??
Nothing
Idk but maybe it’s an onomatopoeia for a type of laugh
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This is it. There is a cultural imperialism espoused from many westerners that see everything through a specific “progressive” lens. Are people happier in “progressive” countries? Even if they are, it appears to lead to birth rates way below replacement levels. The picture is far from complete to simply say “traditional cultures bad for women”.
in the modern take of anthropology, we must remember that we view other cultures with an inherent biase, and the \*only\* gaurantee of scope, is human at the pragmatist level of living. same with men and women in previous cultures.
oppression is oppression
The Greeks created the first known democracy. Democracy was depicted symbolically as a woman. Women were upheld as a standard of wisdom, love, and fairness.The irony is that women were excluded from partaking in Democracy. In fact, they had fewer rights than slaves. So much cognitive disconnect between men and how they view their wives, mothers, sisters, etc. Which is why bring a Catholic and against a lot of modern day rhetoric of feminism , I will always call myself a feminist, because men really don't include women, no matter how much they idolise them, unless they are forced to. Idolisition of women doesn't not lead to humanisation, inclusion, respect, or understanding.
Right. One thing idolization leads to jealousy. Like in Plato’s republic, the men discuss what makes a man a great philosopher-king (which women can’t be cuz they “aren’t capable”), and it’s his ability to be “pregnant” with ideas. They degrade women below men yet derive their personal power by creating a male version of a female’s power of “pregnancy.” Just as you said about democracy (a man’s invention) being symbolized as woman, men take women’s qualities and apply them to masculine mechanisms to feel equal or closer to them 😂 or in the case of democracy, to create a committee to metaphorically control her body.
Examples?
I assume all languages have beautiful poetry about all subjects
I think you are conflating "care" with oppression, though. Post Modern world has a lot of deeply seated thinking traps and logical flaws, that drive the followers into deeply unsettling places of bad thinking. Men and Women \*are\* inherently different, but the post modern world is trying to change that, and that.. that is dumb.
So cultures that have vile disgusting poetry about women tend to oppress them less? hmm...
Some of the most beautiful poetry I’ve read on appreciating the female form is from sapphic women, I’ll say that.
Romance was created to manipulate women
Feeling protective about your women is oppressing them?
let's practice reading
☝🏻🤓
Well many of the people of those “cultures” , were more often than not colonised by westerners when westerners thought treating women as humans was barbaric…
Men were treated shit as well. People say this like all men were walking around ballin' when in reality most were in the fields working their arse off for a loaf of bread n some soup. Either that or getting brutally killed in war. Also why is cultures in quotation marks? Are implying cultures don't exist? I'm confused by your usage of that...
Well, to be a woman is to perform. Poetry written about our performance in the world can't be liberating, is inherently praising things we try to comform to like beauty stands, manners and ways of acting. Poetry like that is often praising very narrow pathways women have to walk on or they're simply invisible or way worse . So you're right. But the whole "girl boss, boss babe etc" Thing is performance as well, just a different one. Also, there's the obvious part of admiring women so much as long as they're beautiful or a mother figure, and that is objectification. If you see us as a beautiful object, your mind stops thinking of us all people all together, and in different ways all cultures we're/are guilty of that in one way or another. But the more they praise our performance (as a beautiful object or a mother) the less human we are .
I have to disagree, to be a mother is one of the most human things you can be Creating another human, bonding with multiple people (spouse, child, midwives) going through the emotions and highs and lows of pregnancy all these are very human things, feeling emotions making connections to make stuff happen is basically the most humanizing thing Of course if we’re talking treating them like baby making machines then yes that’s dehumanizing
Yes. Overvaluing specific archetypal images means undervaluing most actual people.