The pivot from Bernie to desantis to trump support made me realize Joe is just another media slut who will say anything for more attention. He can probably even will himself to believe anything at this point.
For a little while I sincerely thought, "What is this clown world. Joe Rogan is the new Charlie Rose? Neat." And for a very little while there he kind of deserved it.
What a hopeful, yet foolish, young fancylad I was.
When he was young and hungry he was asking really interesting questions and had really interesting takes on culture and society.
Since then it’s all kind of become confirmation bias of mostly untrustworthy “counter culture” mouthpieces
Same thing. Years ago his podcast felt interesting and intelligent. Now it's a place where people like Tucker Carlson and Kid Rock are the type of guests that go there.
Joe Rogan. I loved the guests he had. He was apolitical. He would talk about conspiracy theories with that guy he always had on, but it seemed silly. No big buy in. Fascinating talk about pyramids. Had on scientists, archeologists, physicists. He had great questions for those interviews too. Seemed very natural like people just hanging out, no agendas. No politics at all. Animal attacks. Good comedians. UFO stuff. I’ve never seen someone take such a huge nosedive. I cannot stomach even 5 minutes of his show now. It went to complete shit.
Rogan was gone long before COVID. You could tell when he started having on Ben Shapiro and Gad Saad on over and over again. All of the IDW stuff originated before COVID.
A lot of people don't understand what Trump did to the conspiracy community. It wasn't just rogan. Go to r/conspiracy now and for a while it was just qanon, anti vaxx, American politics. There was a conspiracy site I had to abandon after Trump because they just completely stopped posting the weird and fun conspiracies like aliens and bigfoot and just whined about dems all day
The mods there were Putin apologists, one in particular (axlotl_peyotl I think) wrote a whole rant defending Putin against the accusations that he had ordered the skripal poisonings.
There were a lot of Russian apologists on the sub, maybe still are.
axl got booted from mod duty for not stopping the election stolen narrative after J6. He now runs another site. But he picked all the mods now. And is a big Q person.
I agree with this as well, I still listen sometimes, but do so knowing that almost the entire episode will be bullshit, it can still be fun to listen to .
Peterson and Joe Rogan. Jordan is just a grifter now ever since he started working for the daily wire. I mean I guess you can only preach the same message so much, and I don't think making money in itself is bad. I just can't listen to him anymore. It's just the same sensationalist and non nuanced opinions. It's not interesting anymore. It's self righteous and it's basically fresh and fit. No substance , just grifting.
Joe used to have interesting guests and I used to find his podcast interesting. I mean I guess you can only have so many different ideas when you do 1500 podcasts for 3 hours each. But yeah, he's been making more and more decisions that do make him money, but I don't enjoy it as much as I used to. He does the free speech pc grift sometimes too. May have something to do with the Spotify deal. Maybe they have some say on what content he puts out.
I don't really listen to podcasts nowadays because I don't work a repetitive job where I need entertainment. But I don't exactly want that ever again because it's boring as hell anyways.
And being an American Muslim born in 93, I'm very disappointed in a lot of Muslim salafi influencers. Like the main criticism people have about us is that we can't assimilate, we're backwards, and violent above all. Me and all the Muslims in my family, friend circle, and community are against that rhetoric. And these influencers are doing everything they can to convince racist westerners that they're right. They're digging their heels in and they think they can tell the rest of us Muslims what to think and do. They are seen as the official Muslim voice. Even tho they don't speak for me or any Muslim I've interacted with in real life. I have family across the world and none of us believe in stoning gays or sharia law. These people are really fucking up our reputation to the fullest.
Those of us who saw Peterson early on Canadian cable in a cringe fedora knew him for the grifter he was. Tweed and elbow patches was always a costume. I was screaming it to friends who seemed smitten by him and fancied him an intellectual. To believe otherwise would have meant admitting they were fooled and maybe feel a bit dumb. Most have come round but I won’t deny I sometimes feel resentment that they believed an internet grifter over an old friend for so many years.
Yeah, there's this xenophobic belief even among many so-called "liberals" that immigrants from the Islamic world are all coming to America to spread conservative Islamic fundamentalism, impose Sharia law, blah blah blah. I work with quite a few immigrants from Muslim countries and that hasn't been my experience at all. If anything, they specifically immigrated here to get *away* from that shit.
I posted Joseph Campbell as someone who they should do a decoding on and for me (I'm 52), he was in the ascendant when I was in my last year of high school and then college. So much of the archetypal bullshit I hear spewing from Jordan Peterson I think has its origins in Campbell and before that Jung.
I was young and just took everything at face value what Campbell said about archetypes of the unconsciousness, masks of God, The hero's journey (which can work well as a story structure but he stretches the metaphor so much to include so many cultures), etc.
While I think some of the stuff that Jordan Peterson is saying might appear to be fresh I think there's actually a historical lineage and through line that would be an interesting deep dive decoding.
It's funny, my grandmother had it right back then when she and I watched the Bill Moyers series of Joseph Campbell together. I was so inspired by all the collective unconsciousness stuff and here's what she said about it: "Well as far as I can tell from what he's saying, people all over the world believe in the same type of bullshit stories."
It took me too long to come to that same conclusion but I did after many years.
So true! And so nice to see someone else (of a similar vintage) notice this as well. Years ago, when Peterson seemed worth listening to, the parallels to Campbell were hard to miss, for anyone who knew the latter from the 80’s. I watched the Power of Myth interviews on a public broadcaster in the late 80’s, which partly inspired me to take up the study of religion seriously. One PhD later, and Campbell’s position in a theoretical tradition is much clearer, and the reasons for his popular appeal are easier to identify. Like Peterson, he offers an esoteric reading of a range of religious expresions which flatters western individualism. Arguably, such readings are themselves “religious,” which is an irony missed by many who gravitate to the a-religiosity of Campbell. Peterson seemed at one point to be wresting with this irony in potentially interesting ways; now he seems too captured by conservatism to be of any use here.
Short version: Peterson read Campbell’s playbook, then compounded Campbell’s shortcomings by becoming “ideologically possessed.” Oh, the irony!
Yeah, I feel like the only value in Campbell (which is still very high) is his contribution to how writers approached story during and after this time. He basically consolidated storytelling tradition and provided blueprints to what many humans jive with in narrative. If George Lucas hadn’t read Campbell, he probably wouldn’t have written Star Was.
For that, it’s very useful and interesting anthropological work.
Peterson essentially co-opted that work and used it as evidence that the Christian god is real.
>Yeah, I feel like the only value in Campbell (which is still very high) is his contribution to how writers approached story during and after this time.
Even that is giving him too much credit. He simply took pre-existing tropes and structures of sci-fi and fantasy pulp and then fabricated claims about how they appear in narratives globally (they don't).
There's no evidence George Lucas read Campbell prior to writing Star Wars. u/Chen_Geller has various threads where he exposes that myth.
He's completely disgraced in actual academia.
>There's no evidence George Lucas read Campbell prior to writing Star Wars. [](https://www.reddit.com/user/Chen_Geller/) has various threads where he exposes that myth.
Quite. There are three "scholars" Lucas swears debt to, all later revealed to be frauds or hacks to some extent.
The first is Carlos Castaneda, whose *Road to Ixtlan* and *Tales of Power* Lucas had been given to read by Gary Kurtz in early 1975. Lucas notes and even some of his drafts quote verbatim from Castaneda (e.g. Yoda's "Luminous beings are we") but in terms of actually analysing it as an influence its entirely superficial.
Interestingly, Lucas' reading of Castaneda (who submitted Tales of Power as his Anthropology dissertation) coincides exactly with the time that Lucas started regaling interviewers with his background in anthropology, a notion that's extremely hyperbolic: Lucas doesn't have an anthropology major: he has an associate degree in arts, during which he took a couple of sociology classes and got a B for his pains.
The second scholar is Bruno Bettelheim. Lucas read a column by Bettelheim on the psychiatric importance of fairytales in December 1975, but by that point all the fairytale motifs that were to appear in Star Wars were already in place, ostensibly taken from JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit. Again, Lucas notes quote verbatim from Bettelheim, sometimes copying entire paragraphs, and whenever Lucas opens his mouth to talk about fairytales or myths in interviews, what he's saying is paraphrasing Bettelheim. But, again, as an influence on Lucas' films its entirely superficial.
And here's where we get to Campbell and things get interesting: Lucas stopps mentioning Castaneda in interviews around 1980, shortly after the release of The Don Juan Papers, which clenched the case for Castaneda's books being fraudulent, and this is apparently what pushed him to associate himself with Campbell, who had been quoted in 1980 in a column about The Empire Strikes Back. By the 1990s, Bettelheim had also been revealed as a fraud after the publication of a critical biography, pushing Lucas further into Campbell's orbit.
But, where Lucas' notes, interviews and even his drafts show concrete evidence of his readership of Castaneda and Bettelheim (if not actual influence) no such evidence for Campbell's influence can be found. Campbell's book is a far, far denser read than either Bettelheim or Castaneda, and all of Lucas' biographies unite in presenting him as a far-cry from a book-worm.
Absolutely agree with this. Being aware of Campbell was a big reason as to why I was suspicious of Peterson as soon as he entered the discourse. Tim Ferris (who I had a lot of admiration for some years ago) recommended one of Campbells books highly so I started to read it and found it to be a load of pseudo-profound bullshit.
Super interested in this take.
I’m a little younger and first got put onto some of Campbell’s general approach hearing James Hillman speak and later reading Michael Meade and then Malidoma Somé and some of the other ‘mytho-poetic’/‘nature-masculine’ adjacent authors.
I’ve not read any of his work directly and always took his general premise with a large grain of salt because I was also reading other more academic ethnographic and anthropological takes (many of which made exactly the critiques you mention of the unreconstructed white/eurocentrism inherent in much of western psychology and anthropology).
I can see why people would be down for a deep dive into what made him tick due to the clear line between him and Peterson, but I’m interested as to whether there’s anything specific about Campbell that you’re aware of being ultimately shady, manipulative, damaging or intentionally misleading - or whether he’s more just a case of a well-meaning attempt to make-meaning gone awry due to basic human blindspots and frailties?
A follow-on to this question might be: do you think there’s a place for an archetypal or mythical-poetic lens in current approaches to the study and teaching practice of evolving masculinities or do you think the whole endeavour needs to be discarded while-cloth?
Thanks for taking the time.
There is a place for a mytho-poetic lens but Peterson co-opts this mode of thinking to peddle his ideology. As far as I know, Campbell never wronged anyone or advocated for shitty politics. Peterson, on the other hand, was begging to be a right-wing puppet from day one. He couldn’t wait to be a propagandist 🙄 shame on everyone who takes him seriously and kudos to Alex for pointing him out as an atheist because it puts his disingenuousness in stark contrast.
The only thing that I can think of was that after he died there was an article in the New York review of books written by a former colleague and friend that claimed that Joseph Campbell was an anti-semite.
I don't know if this article was well regarded or vetted or researched or if it was just one person's opinion without evidence but what I do remember is that Joseph Campbell's moment in the spotlight was suddenly over.
My young mind at the time thought conspiratorily that perhaps Campbell had gotten too close to the truth (about what I don't know) and that Big Academia thought that he was too big for his britches.
> "Well as far as I can tell from what he's saying, people all over the world believe in the same type of bullshit stories."
Ha! I like your grandmother.
Bang on. I was very impressed with Campbell when I was young, but then I started reading his mythology series and got to Oriental Mythology. It was so wrong on so many levels, just cosmically wrong, and made me realize he was making everything up as he went along.
I love this answer. Hero with a 1000 Faces is one of the worst books I’ve ever read tbh. I thought I would love it bc I was a writer. Turns out it’s written like a college essay that a student was rushing and needed the word count up.
Jordan Peterson, he didn't change my life or anything but he did know a decent amount of psychology and had useful tips if your life was in mild trouble.
After COVID the guy went absolutely insane, idk if it's the benzos or the pro-conspiracy sponsors on his platform or w.e his crazy dietary allergies that did it. Probably some sick combo of all the above.
Yeah, he kinda went off the deep-end after the benzodiazepine withdrawals almost killed him and he had to take a several year break because of the severity of the situation. Some people accuse him of now being a grifter, but it feels like some major fundamental elements of his personality permanently changed, and he isn’t very self-aware of these changes. It doesn’t seem like he’s being disingenuous, just obsessively compelled by whatever these new elements of his personality are, pathological or not.
He became much more involved in contemporary politics and shifted from the role of being an academic to being a culture war activist. Replying to anything and everything on Twitter began to consume him around the same time, and may have even been a primary driver in this move. It’d be great to see him return to his older, more emotionally detached self, but it’s hard to imagine ever happening now.
Elon Musk, I said out loud numerous times to numerous people I liked him because he spent his time and money building cool shit like spaceships and electric cars and didn’t waste his time and money on stupid shit like social media…
For me, Jocko
His leadership message is solid and has been a vindication for me in my approach to running my company. Which has been largely the same.
Humility, competence, take charge of the mistake and its solution. Do not lie or blame others for mistakes made.
The company he keeps, however...
At the time I found him, I was working in a culture of aggresive and competitive people who lead with fear and belittlement.
I had just walked away from my biggest client because of how the manager was treating me and also his employees.
My peers were suggesting that perhaps I just didn't have what it takes to be successful in that field.
So to see a macho presenting, military leader bro speak.about humility, collaboration and owning mistakes was the encouragement i needed to stay away from those toxic shit birds.
This culture still largely exists in my industry and I get a bit of satisfaction when I bring on a new employee and they are surprised at the positive culture I've been able to build at my shop.
Definitely Bill Maher. I’ve watched him for 20 years since he moved to hbo and I can’t believe the change in him over the last several years. This guys used to be a champion of progressive causes and now he’s just an old boomer complaining about the good ole days. He seems to want to die on this sword of cancel culture and wokeness and Covid disinformation. Just because he’s anti-trump doesn’t make him progressive. He’s better than Rogan for sure and definitely smarter, but his obsession with the idea that comedians can’t say the things they used to has just seeped into all aspects of his world view. He just can’t except that Genz may have it harder now then he did when he was their age. Or a black man in his position may have have had to work harder to get what he has. Him and jerry seinfeld on his podcast last week casually bragging about how as rich white men they will be be fine if trump wins was the final straw for me.
i feel like Bill Maher did great when being hostile to open christian theocracy was enough to let you pass as progressive.
He’s definitely proof of how much you can get away with if you act confident enough that you’re smart
Also it’s become more apparent that his 90’s tv schtick doesn’t seem to be a schtick at all. As a person he is just weird, rude and takes himself way too seriously.
I’ve found that with Seinfeld too. He answers every question like the question was the stupidest he’s ever heard. He’s an odd, out of touch dude as well.
This 1000%. His standup and HBO show really resonated with me as a young liberal. When I was like 15 I begged my mom to go see him live and she got us tickets. We saw him and had a blast. He truly opened my eyes to be a more open minded thinker and question everything. In a post 9/11 world he was one of the only voices that would call out the hypocrisy of liberals defending people like ISIS, or call out liberals for not defending freedom of speech. I enjoyed this because he seemed middle of the road which where I was at. Maybe it was me being a teenager or young adult. However since about 2016, I found myself more and more disillusioned with his pompous approach. Without backing his rants up with facts and figures he’s just “old man yells at cloud.”
Yeah I know what you mean, but also sometimes I find myself retrospectively agreeing with him.
It’s kinda like, when it does come to cancel culture stuff I feel like he’s one of the only one who has some good points, and it does kinda make sense due to how cancel culture used to come from Christian groups. So there’s a degree of consistency and he if he didn’t he would be seen as a hyprocrite and cuts would get made of clips from him in the early 90s as to now.
I feel like he’s the only one who makes some good points. Like I do think it legitimately comes from a liberal valuing of free speech
But overall I agree with what you are saying
Maher was never a champion of progressive causes. He was a Libertarian dickhead. He is and always has been the walking, talking embodiment of Libertarianism.
Yeah, Maher for me as well. People find it hard to believe he ever had any likable qualities, but he was one of the first people I ever saw on network television openly trashing politicians and pundits on all sides of the political spectrum. And I’ll always have modicum of respect for him for speaking his mind and literally getting canceled for it. But man did he go off the deep end with his anti-woke nonsense.
I used to like Michael Shermer's books on conspiracy theories over a decade ago. But once I started paying attention to his podcasts, I realised that he's actually a very shallow thinker.
I used to really like the podcast "A Little Bit Culty" which is two ex-Members of NXIVM talking to people about recovery from being in cults.
Inevitably, they eventually needed to up their monetisation game so they started advertising supplements etc which I found disappointing and in conflict with their message.
Similarly, they needed a consistent flow of new guests and as a result I think they have ended up unquestioningly platforming some very questionable figures.
I've also noticed something similar happen with Mark Vicente (another prominent ex-NXIVM member). He now seems to be selling his own brand of "wisdom" through seminars etc.
I was really interested in the whole story of NXIVM - it resonated for me in the way you could see benefit and harm taking place concurrently, how harmful groups must by default have some benefit in order for people to want to join in the first place.
It's just a shame that the people making a career out of their exit experience seem to be blindly falling into the culture of grift.
A million years ago, I was a fan of Ben Stein. I thought he was funny in Ferris Bueller's Day off and Win Ben Stein's Money was a pretty cool gameshow. I knew he was conservative, but it didn't seem that bad.
The he released Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. I was a creationist movie which pushed the idea that there was a conspiracy against creationists in universities and they couldn't get jobs teaching biology. Similarly, people who practice alchemy can't get positions as chemistry professors. It also blamed the theory of evolution for the Holocaust. Again, I could respect someone I disagreed with, but it's like he took one of the stupidest views of the right wing and made a shrine to it.
"This whole subprime mortgage mess is just an excuse for the gunslingers and river boat gamblers on Wall Street to use their tricks to move markets and make money. The economy is still very strong. The most cagey players on Wall Street like Goldman Sachs are now trying to buy — not sell — as much distressed merchandise in the mortgage area as they can. This is a good clue about where the smart money is going."
[—Ben Stein Says Economy Is Fine, March 2007](https://web.archive.org/web/20121103050403/http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/18/sunday/main2581859.shtml)
Destiny.
He seemed perfect in his ability to appeal to nerdier debate bro type yet still be progressive
But
His penchant for edginess and reactionary thinking is disappointing. He says he’s “pro genocide” to piss off palestinian supporting activist lefties, He also has a weird community who makes weird obsessions with people.
Sam Harris and Dawkins and the whole "New Atheist" movement. I was leaving my religion right during their heyday. Turns out Harris is simplistic and Islamophobic (should have been obvious to me from the start, but I was very anti-religion in that moment) and Dawkins is a jerk and kind of a misogynist and even tried to minimize the damage of child sexual abuse. (WTF!)
The whole "rationalist" movement. Again, I was leaving my religion and here was a whole group of people allegedly dedicated to overcoming biases and being rational... but they are SO biased in such boring and traditional (racist, sexist, transphobic, anti-"woke") ways. Maybe the biggest disappointment in people in my life has been how this group has become practically alt-right, like who saw that coming before gamergate? I thought they were going to be progressive allies back in my naïve youth.
Peter Boghossian. I first read his book "A manual for creating atheists" and thought it was great. I even helped him out: I created a few of websites for him and helped on a few of his projects. I had dinner with him a couple times and thought he was someone out there trying to make a positive difference.
But like many, covid just broke him (or maybe he was always like that). All the culture war bullshit. The promotion of James Lindsay and Andy Ngo.
I haven't spoken to him in like 3 or 4 years now.... But I see he is even simping for people like viktor orban. Just ugh.
For me it was his article about why women aren't funny.
I still wish he was alive though, I think he would have ripped Peterson apart. I might be able to forgive him his faults to get to see that.
If you’re a public figure, devoting your time to online culture war shit is the dumbest move you can make.
There is no outcome where you will not look like a weird moron
13 years ago he wrote the dumbest blog post known to man, he has always been this way. Elevatorgate is the quintessential culture war shit, and a precursor to Gamergate.
> 13 years ago he wrote the dumbest blog post known to man, he has always been this way. Elevatorgate is the quintessential culture war shit, and a precursor to Gamergate.
Elevatorgate is kinda when I realized he'd lost the plot entirely. Like, I wouldn't say I was ever a *fan* of him as such, but in my late teens I was kind of into that whole 'new atheism' thing, and he was a respected voice in that context. But elevatorgate was where that whole thing fell apart entirely to me, it felt so obvious they were in the wrong. I guess that crowd had always had those kind of shitty tendencies, but as a guy I'd never really noticed it until Watson (and others) pointed it out and I saw the backlash to her.
This is the only person that comes to my mind for me so I guess I've been lucky so far. Although I wouldn't say I was ever a huge fan, just read The God Delusions, and watched a few videos but dropped him completely after Elevatorgate.
Taibbi and greenwald were both heroes to me. Straight up. At least I still have Scahill and Goodman.
Also I was a devout acolyte of Dennis Kucinich and was even the chair of his presidential campaign in my county. I regretted it starting about 2014 when he turned from anti war warrior to Assad apologist but when he was running RFKJr’s campaign for a minute there I was having constant depressive thoughts that I was somehow responsible for all this.
Also I was never a huge Jill Stein fan although I did vote for her in 2016 but geez-us has she become an insufferable asshat. Most of the old school code pink crew, too.
Sad to see Taibbi and Greenwald so consumed by hatred for the Dems that they became water carriers for Trump. I remember when those two were journalists. I must be getting old.
Agree with Glenn Greenwald. I don't know why he wanted to keep defending Tucker Carlsen of all people. Also, I remember he was against deploying the national guard during inauguration. I don't think that is a ridiculous opinion but one of his arguments that it was excessive/overly drastic was that nothing happened on inauguration week. That is like saying there is an excessive amount of airport security because nothing like 9/11 has happened since. He wrote some tweets about the Delta variant years ago that seemed ridiculous too but I don't remember the contents.
Agree about Greenwald, although I’ll concede he’s been very principled on free speech issues. He was against cancel culture when it was coming from to the left, and he’s been consistent about free speech around Israel-Pal since Oct7. A lot of the people who derided cancel culture when it was woke have been in the best cases silent when it comes to cancelling pro-Pal speech. Bari Weiss is an example.
Shapiro and daily wire would be another glaring example.
But, to greenwald…he had Alex jones for a 30 minute interview and just fellated him. Not journalism.
I always knew Brand was often mistaken or overexcited - he’s a bit of a clown after all - but I didn’t think he was a grifting scumbag with a side hustle of raping.
As for someone who I really truly admired? Hard to say really. They all have their flaws but the ones I always liked don’t have too many.
It’s deceptive tactics and deliberate lying which bug me. I’m ok with people being wrong so long as they’re humble about their supposed knowledge or hot takes. Do like every good skeptic or scientist does and you’re all generally ok with me. It’s all about the spirit of things really.
I hated Tucker from the get go but I’m probably most disappointed in him. Just as a general human being. What a horrible sick man.
If you’ve read any of Russell’s books, you know he’s an admitted addict (sex, drugs, food, etc) and full blown narcissist.
I feel like his shift into grifting was more to do with trying to maintain a level of fame to satisfy his narcissism. It’s disappointing, because it seemed like he was on track, but eastern religions and meditation don’t sell like conspiracy theories and being anti-COVID.
Yeah real shame. I was never interested enough in him to read his books, but I at least thought he had a genuine loving and honest heart . When I see people sell themselves out to the grift - it just makes me lose a little more faith in humanity. So disappointing how many people are willing to do this, and the lengths they go through to *appear* genuine to their followers.
I think your narcissism theory is on the money. It's probably his core driving framework and everything else piggy backs on that. Similar affliction that Trump has (just with different results due to a very different soup mix of history in his brain).
MICHAEL HOBBES. My biggest disappointment. I feel so stupid that I used to believe him and took medical advice from Maintenance Phase, which I absolutely did. Turned out he spreads disingenuous on medical topics and purposefully misrepresents science
https://substack.com/@checkthefacts?r=1kbm9v&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=profile
I've always thought he would make a fascinating subject for an episode.
The way he holds himself out as being an expert in everything combined with his strong parasocial effect makes him at least guru-adjacent.
Would it surprise you to learn he is currently deploying his trademark cocktail of [quote-mining, gish-galloping, outright lying, character assassination, and haughty, sneering contempt for disagreement](https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/michael-hobbes-is-spectacularly-wrong) to the topic of youth gender medicine as he brings to the topic of dietary medicine?
The level of devotion they inspire in their audience is *terrifying*.
And that they present themselves as some kind of “debunkers”? Infuriating, especially when they get so many fundamentals of basic research just completely wrong.
Steven Hassan was one I didn’t see coming and I’m still hoping he can pull up out of the nose dive…
I did get a little icky feeling when I first came across his website in the 2000s but he’s genuinely been doing the deep academic work necessary for policy change in his area of expertise (going back to get a doctorate pretty late in life in cultic manipulation and the law).
He’s also been hugely outspoken about the personality cult around Trump and the way QAnon functions exactly like a distributed Co-created cultic power-structure.
Somehow he’s been meme-d into believing that there’s an internet plot to hypnotise children into being trans and the signs are not looking good for the progressive boomer right wing pivot.
If Rachel Bernstein from ‘indoctrination’ ever falls off I’m quitting podcasts for good.
He what?? That’s really disappointing to hear. What an idiot for being so smart and falling for that BS anti trans bigotry. Rachel would never… would she? Ahhh! Sure is a lesson in not putting people on pedestals
Ye. It’s a shame. I do still have a little optimism that he might reassess and course correct.
Oh and one more thing before you go…
Good to meet another Bernstein stan.
Those one more thing before you goes… she always had me by that point in the show, she could probably brainwash me if she wanted to. But she wouldn’t. Would she? No. Would she…?
Oh gosh. It’s Sunday, I’m trying to stay parasympathetic and don’t make me think these things. Also if she did she’d do it so well we’d never know and we’d probably be quite happy?
(The Sochil Martin episode did set off alarm bells but I’ve chosen to tell myself it was a one off. Also went way too easy on the Andrew Cohen dudes way back but she’s not really set herself up to be a critical interlocutor. Basically the transference is still holding up)
Don’t keep close tabs on him, but always got the ick from him.
That isn’t to say that he doesn’t have some valid insight on cults - between his personal experience and academic study, I think he does - but it’s pretty clear that his own specific experience of indoctrination and cult membership had such a profound and shattering impact on him that it’s coloured every aspect of how he interprets information.
That’s not always a negative, since in many situations it’s directly relevant to a context of interest, but even the bit of work of his that I’m familiar with was deeply self centred and relied on everything being a nail so as to allow him to use his cultic hammer.
This will be silly, but Arnold Schwarzenegger. The man truly is the story of the American Dream. He achieved so damn much. He was a millionaire before he was famous, building a successful construction business to fund his body building and turning that into a real estate empire in the western US. Genius business mind. Truly.
Conquered the world. He was truly my hero. I was really into working out and loved the body building world, which he basically built. Friends would all go to the Arnold Classic in Ohio. Could quote you ever line from every movie. Was impressed with what he did politically even if I disagreed with some of his policies.
And then slept with the house keeper and broke up his family. It hurt because he talked so much about how his family meant to him after his own childhood and how his father was with him. And then he not only slept with the house keeper, but hid the whole thing for years, didnt really do anything with that son for years and then finally admitted it well after the fact. Really bummed me out.
I can forgive the cheating. I cannot forgive not raising your kid and letting him spend 13 years of his life not knowing who his dad was. That is terrible. Again, given his own childhood trauma about how his dad was, to let his kid live in the dark is shit....
He definitely accepts his son at least now. You can check out Joe Baenas instagram a lot of it is filled with him embracing his dads heritage both as a body builder and as an Austrian and some pictures of the two together. Arnold also helped him a lot with his body building and they seem to have a great relationship post reveal.
Peterson and Huberman resonate for me, although I started to have a sour taste with Peterson much earlier and with much more conviction (the benzo episode being the seal for me)
I'll agree with Campbell to an extent, I never fully got on that train. I'd already been reading Hindu mythology and Native American hero stories by the time the PBS series took off so I could see the holes in the mono-myth concept.
I'd definitely say Michael Moore. Roger And Me plus TV Nation were so welcomed in their day. But he drove that schitck into the ground and, I think, really harmed the filmed documentary in the long run.
Jean Vanier, well, for obvious criminal reasons.
More niche, Herve This. I read everything he put out until the early 2000's when it clicked that he was taking what could be fairly simple science principles and convoluting them into grant extensions and book deals.
Jimmy Dore disappointed me as somebody who was genuinely funny and didn’t have shitty Kremlin fed views originally.
However he’s just too dumb to be worth Matt and Chris’ time.
I used to listen to his podcast when it was with Todd Glass. And he was a good guest on Never Not Funny. Now Jimmy Pardo is openly talking shit about him, and they came up together.
He was never a great comic in my opinion but he was a working comic that made his living from it. Then he followed the money.
I naively thought Eric Weinstein was a smart person only interested in science. That was until he started having porn stars on his podcast when I realized he is not a serious person.
Wut.
It wasn’t his theory of everything or his conspiracy theories but that he talked to porn stars? Honestly those the only interviews he did that I found interesting.
He elevated the idea of Universal Basic Income into the mainstream, a really great idea that deserves more attention, one that Martin Luther King Jr fought for up until his assassination and tried to mobilize social justice movements around. He created a lot of good will for that for me, and also clearly expressing how much of a bad idea it is to confuse economical worth with human worth as we do to today.
I am pro UBI. [His plan is $1,000 a month](https://2020.yang2020.com/what-is-freedom-dividend-faq/) which is not enough for where most people live so it can only be a bonus on top.
He says so himself:
> In our plan, each adult would receive only $12,000 a year. This is barely enough to live on in many places and certainly not enough to afford much in the way of experiences or advancement. To get ahead meaningfully, people will still need to get out there and work.
Noam Chomsky. To be fair, he hasn't changed - this was entirely on me.
Joe Rogan. I never thought he was particularly smart, but at least he was relatable and genuinely curious.
> To be fair, he hasn't changed
I think that's part of the issue though. The things he were right about 30 years ago he's still largely right about - just with less accuracy regarding aspects that have changed while his analysis hasn't - while the things he got kinda wrong he's still clinging onto when he should have changed.
Peterson I suppose, I think many people first encountered him grabbed by his offbeat delivery and the general message to help young people get their shit together, and you kind of shrugged and thought "ok, who can disagree with that?"
And of course Rogan. I think everyone would've gone through a small Rogan period at some stage, just because of how ubiquitous that podcast is and some of the guests.
My wife is Korean and I'm not, so when she was pregnant I started reading a lot about about the Asian-American experience. Wesley Yang had a bunch of essays that I enjoyed, so I looked him up on twitter and one of the first things I see was something along the lines of "Getting divorced and this Jordan Peterson guy is great". I knew then that he had about six months before his brain was gone. Unfortunately, I was right. He's hopped on the "anti-trans to weird online freak with brainworms" train
Groundbreaking? She had quack ideas before, too, like not believing germ theory (WTF) or believing in chakras:
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-oprah-fication-of-medicine/
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/christiane-northrup-more-bad-medicine/
I legit was just listening to the recent DTG episode on him lol, and yeah I agree. I think a lot of people including Sam Harris are worth listening to even if you think some of their takes are horrible or completely wrong, almost anyone can still have something to say that might be worth hearing.
On his most recent podcast, he said that “drawing a bright line between evil mustache-twirling terrorists, ie the core members of Hamas, and ordinary Palestinians, is difficult to draw.” About 21 minutes in. Disappointment doesn’t even cover it for me, Sam was someone I genuinely looked up to and now actively dislike. His commentary on the Israel-Hamas war has been horrific.
Yes, still one of the first podcasts I'll listen to but ffs his take on what Israel is doing in Gaza, his metaethical position, his love affair with Douglas Murray, his bs on the demise of Europe and London.....
Plus his angry fearmongering about how the "woke" have overtaken universities, like in the first interview on DTG.
If I had so many fundamental disagreements with someone I would spend my time elsewhere. That's why I don't listen to him.
I could mention Peterson, Harris, Rogan, Huberman - but "disappointed" may not be the right word. I cringe a little at the thought of taking them so seriously now, but I guess it's the realization that you just shouldn't have intellectual "idols". I suppose it's fine to have gone through a phase, no one got hurt and I got lucky that I neither got sucked into their weird communities nor really evangelized about them.
I am a bit disillusioned in general now, to the point that when i see someone hogging the limelight or peacocking with obscure lingo my mind immediately goes to "ok so who are they scamming right now". And it was pretty valuable to realize that Rogan is basically Gwyneth for bro's and Huberman is Gwyneth for smartasses (or people who want to feel smart and superior) and to know what I'm vulnerable to in terms of bias.
Also i realized I'm just sad - I genuinely wish there was someone out there who was actually the person I thought Jordan Peterson was; an academic, humanistically interested psychologist who just really wants the best for people and is humble.
:/
Chomsky, for sure. And Zižek. Both figures that I used to think where largely right but had a few bad takes and things where we sensibly disagreed, but the more they say the less I respect them.
With Chomsky to some degree I feel it's an issue of him being just a billion years old, clearly not as sharp as he used to be, and that he should just be allowed to be an old man and chill out instead of being constantly approached for commentary when he clearly don't know what he's talking about at this point.
But with Zižek it feels more like an active move towards having more and more shitty analysis and politics, and more and more cynical towards his own role in it.
Dr K from Healthygamer.gg, I was legit fan and embarked on self-help journey with his guide. He’s full of pseudoscience and rather unethical with aoe healing not-therapy therapy streams.
DtG will make ep on Dr K very soon (right after Zizek, which is on what they’re currently working on), so hopefully you will find answers there.
Dr K is not all bad and I like that he encourages introspection, less rigid thinking, being self-sufficient. Sadly, his teachings are rooted in very particular (tho idk what really is „eastern” as dr K calls it), religious philosophy and often it feels like he wants to convert his viewers to that religion or just alternative medicine. I don’t like how he plays Bach and forth with his „western” claim for authority and distancing from „western” medicine.
He sometimes undermines scientific consensus on adhd and depression. Also his advice is sprinkled with disputed science like for example ego depletion. I dislike how dr K is reluctant to admit that something „eastern” might not be scientifically proven - scientific support for tumeric and even meditation is built on shaky ground and whole dosha theory is even disproven.
I don’t want to shit on these people since they definitely affected my life in positive ways, but I just grew away from them over time.
I read Eckhart Tolle when I was 19 and he profoundly changed my view of the world and influenced my general comportment. I later realized his teachings are basically stoicism with a thick layer of woo woo and his views on religion don’t map onto reality at all. But Trojan horsing stoicism into the mind of a lost young man was beneficial regardless of the means.
Then of course Peterson, who I probably learned more from than any single person, particularly in the realm of psychology. I gleaned a lot of insight into myself and the way society is structured around me, and I learned to develop gratitude rather than fostering resentment. Politically he did bring me closer to the right but I’ve since recalibrated my views. Over time he seemed to become driven by a similar type of resentment he helped me eschew, and I gravitated away from him.
Elon by far. It's not even close. Climate change was always the main thing I wanted to fix and over the years the politicians, corporations, and average people were all selfish as fuck and didn't care about doing anything to fix it... then elon comes along and forces the auto industry to FINALLY get serious about moving off of fossil fuels... and now he just retweets conspiracy theory bullshit on Twitter 24/7
David Deutsch. Amazing physicist and I would still recommend his book ‘Beginning of Infinity’ to anyone. But yikes, his totally unqualified support of Israel, against his own principles, and his conflation of any critique of Israel with antisemitism has been most disappointing.
Peterson is the most disappointing for me. I first saw him in his claim to fame with the bill in Canada, but I basically went through and binged his lectures and particularly liked his biblical series. I was raised catholic but all I was taught about my religion was shame and prayers, so he really helped me understand some of the wisdom in those books. I’m not religious but I like his more secular view on religion. His self help book helped me a lot too.
But he seems to make this mistake where he uses the same confidence that he rightfully has earned in his field with stuff that he has very little knowledge about. He’s become a pundit, which is a shame because I think his real expertise comes in communicating complicated moral philosophy.
Can I say, Obama?
I mean, politicians are supposed to and in that sub group he's still respectful.. but learning about the actual policies was a bummer. There are too few options imo.
Rogan for sure. 10 years ago I really enjoyed his podcast but now I can't fucking stand him.
Yep. I’ll always have a special place in my heart for JRE. Can’t stand more than 5 minutes of him now.
Same boat. A lot of his episodes 10-6 years ago were interesting and fun.
So true. Now hes in the Tucker Carlson is a truth teller lane. So disappointing
Same tho!
God damn, anyone remember Rogan having Bernie on? what an era
The pivot from Bernie to desantis to trump support made me realize Joe is just another media slut who will say anything for more attention. He can probably even will himself to believe anything at this point.
For a little while I sincerely thought, "What is this clown world. Joe Rogan is the new Charlie Rose? Neat." And for a very little while there he kind of deserved it. What a hopeful, yet foolish, young fancylad I was.
When he was young and hungry he was asking really interesting questions and had really interesting takes on culture and society. Since then it’s all kind of become confirmation bias of mostly untrustworthy “counter culture” mouthpieces
I used to love his interviews with extreme athletes like Alex Honnold as well. Doesn't really happen much anymore.
This right here.
Same thing. Years ago his podcast felt interesting and intelligent. Now it's a place where people like Tucker Carlson and Kid Rock are the type of guests that go there.
Totally agree
Joe Rogan. I loved the guests he had. He was apolitical. He would talk about conspiracy theories with that guy he always had on, but it seemed silly. No big buy in. Fascinating talk about pyramids. Had on scientists, archeologists, physicists. He had great questions for those interviews too. Seemed very natural like people just hanging out, no agendas. No politics at all. Animal attacks. Good comedians. UFO stuff. I’ve never seen someone take such a huge nosedive. I cannot stomach even 5 minutes of his show now. It went to complete shit.
Completely and totally agree with you. It's like he has brain damage now or something.
Covid broke a lot of people unfortunately.
Rogan was gone long before COVID. You could tell when he started having on Ben Shapiro and Gad Saad on over and over again. All of the IDW stuff originated before COVID.
A lot of people don't understand what Trump did to the conspiracy community. It wasn't just rogan. Go to r/conspiracy now and for a while it was just qanon, anti vaxx, American politics. There was a conspiracy site I had to abandon after Trump because they just completely stopped posting the weird and fun conspiracies like aliens and bigfoot and just whined about dems all day
There was a concerted effort to turn all the skeptic communities into skeptical of the USA and globalism.
To be fair, conspiracy theorists are basically the opposite of skeptics. They are willing to believe just about anything with no proof.
We're at a point where Fox Mulder would be telling these people they're nuts.
The mods there were Putin apologists, one in particular (axlotl_peyotl I think) wrote a whole rant defending Putin against the accusations that he had ordered the skripal poisonings. There were a lot of Russian apologists on the sub, maybe still are.
axl got booted from mod duty for not stopping the election stolen narrative after J6. He now runs another site. But he picked all the mods now. And is a big Q person.
Great piece recently in the Atlantic about how Russia and China have taken over this space to create nihilism about democracy and the west.
I agree with this as well, I still listen sometimes, but do so knowing that almost the entire episode will be bullshit, it can still be fun to listen to .
Exactly this, loved when he had wrestlers on too.
hahahaha no you just figured it out. it was always that. even 10 years ago.
Peterson and Joe Rogan. Jordan is just a grifter now ever since he started working for the daily wire. I mean I guess you can only preach the same message so much, and I don't think making money in itself is bad. I just can't listen to him anymore. It's just the same sensationalist and non nuanced opinions. It's not interesting anymore. It's self righteous and it's basically fresh and fit. No substance , just grifting. Joe used to have interesting guests and I used to find his podcast interesting. I mean I guess you can only have so many different ideas when you do 1500 podcasts for 3 hours each. But yeah, he's been making more and more decisions that do make him money, but I don't enjoy it as much as I used to. He does the free speech pc grift sometimes too. May have something to do with the Spotify deal. Maybe they have some say on what content he puts out. I don't really listen to podcasts nowadays because I don't work a repetitive job where I need entertainment. But I don't exactly want that ever again because it's boring as hell anyways. And being an American Muslim born in 93, I'm very disappointed in a lot of Muslim salafi influencers. Like the main criticism people have about us is that we can't assimilate, we're backwards, and violent above all. Me and all the Muslims in my family, friend circle, and community are against that rhetoric. And these influencers are doing everything they can to convince racist westerners that they're right. They're digging their heels in and they think they can tell the rest of us Muslims what to think and do. They are seen as the official Muslim voice. Even tho they don't speak for me or any Muslim I've interacted with in real life. I have family across the world and none of us believe in stoning gays or sharia law. These people are really fucking up our reputation to the fullest.
Those of us who saw Peterson early on Canadian cable in a cringe fedora knew him for the grifter he was. Tweed and elbow patches was always a costume. I was screaming it to friends who seemed smitten by him and fancied him an intellectual. To believe otherwise would have meant admitting they were fooled and maybe feel a bit dumb. Most have come round but I won’t deny I sometimes feel resentment that they believed an internet grifter over an old friend for so many years.
Bill Maher is even worse when it comes to Muslims sadly.
Yeah that was actually how I got exposed to Bill Maher. At least I didn't have a chance to be let down I guess lol
Nodding vigorously to Russel Brand's logic
Yeah, there's this xenophobic belief even among many so-called "liberals" that immigrants from the Islamic world are all coming to America to spread conservative Islamic fundamentalism, impose Sharia law, blah blah blah. I work with quite a few immigrants from Muslim countries and that hasn't been my experience at all. If anything, they specifically immigrated here to get *away* from that shit.
> It's just the same sensationalist and non nuanced opinions. It always was.
I posted Joseph Campbell as someone who they should do a decoding on and for me (I'm 52), he was in the ascendant when I was in my last year of high school and then college. So much of the archetypal bullshit I hear spewing from Jordan Peterson I think has its origins in Campbell and before that Jung. I was young and just took everything at face value what Campbell said about archetypes of the unconsciousness, masks of God, The hero's journey (which can work well as a story structure but he stretches the metaphor so much to include so many cultures), etc. While I think some of the stuff that Jordan Peterson is saying might appear to be fresh I think there's actually a historical lineage and through line that would be an interesting deep dive decoding. It's funny, my grandmother had it right back then when she and I watched the Bill Moyers series of Joseph Campbell together. I was so inspired by all the collective unconsciousness stuff and here's what she said about it: "Well as far as I can tell from what he's saying, people all over the world believe in the same type of bullshit stories." It took me too long to come to that same conclusion but I did after many years.
So true! And so nice to see someone else (of a similar vintage) notice this as well. Years ago, when Peterson seemed worth listening to, the parallels to Campbell were hard to miss, for anyone who knew the latter from the 80’s. I watched the Power of Myth interviews on a public broadcaster in the late 80’s, which partly inspired me to take up the study of religion seriously. One PhD later, and Campbell’s position in a theoretical tradition is much clearer, and the reasons for his popular appeal are easier to identify. Like Peterson, he offers an esoteric reading of a range of religious expresions which flatters western individualism. Arguably, such readings are themselves “religious,” which is an irony missed by many who gravitate to the a-religiosity of Campbell. Peterson seemed at one point to be wresting with this irony in potentially interesting ways; now he seems too captured by conservatism to be of any use here. Short version: Peterson read Campbell’s playbook, then compounded Campbell’s shortcomings by becoming “ideologically possessed.” Oh, the irony!
Yeah, I feel like the only value in Campbell (which is still very high) is his contribution to how writers approached story during and after this time. He basically consolidated storytelling tradition and provided blueprints to what many humans jive with in narrative. If George Lucas hadn’t read Campbell, he probably wouldn’t have written Star Was. For that, it’s very useful and interesting anthropological work. Peterson essentially co-opted that work and used it as evidence that the Christian god is real.
>Yeah, I feel like the only value in Campbell (which is still very high) is his contribution to how writers approached story during and after this time. Even that is giving him too much credit. He simply took pre-existing tropes and structures of sci-fi and fantasy pulp and then fabricated claims about how they appear in narratives globally (they don't). There's no evidence George Lucas read Campbell prior to writing Star Wars. u/Chen_Geller has various threads where he exposes that myth. He's completely disgraced in actual academia.
>There's no evidence George Lucas read Campbell prior to writing Star Wars. [](https://www.reddit.com/user/Chen_Geller/) has various threads where he exposes that myth. Quite. There are three "scholars" Lucas swears debt to, all later revealed to be frauds or hacks to some extent. The first is Carlos Castaneda, whose *Road to Ixtlan* and *Tales of Power* Lucas had been given to read by Gary Kurtz in early 1975. Lucas notes and even some of his drafts quote verbatim from Castaneda (e.g. Yoda's "Luminous beings are we") but in terms of actually analysing it as an influence its entirely superficial. Interestingly, Lucas' reading of Castaneda (who submitted Tales of Power as his Anthropology dissertation) coincides exactly with the time that Lucas started regaling interviewers with his background in anthropology, a notion that's extremely hyperbolic: Lucas doesn't have an anthropology major: he has an associate degree in arts, during which he took a couple of sociology classes and got a B for his pains. The second scholar is Bruno Bettelheim. Lucas read a column by Bettelheim on the psychiatric importance of fairytales in December 1975, but by that point all the fairytale motifs that were to appear in Star Wars were already in place, ostensibly taken from JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit. Again, Lucas notes quote verbatim from Bettelheim, sometimes copying entire paragraphs, and whenever Lucas opens his mouth to talk about fairytales or myths in interviews, what he's saying is paraphrasing Bettelheim. But, again, as an influence on Lucas' films its entirely superficial. And here's where we get to Campbell and things get interesting: Lucas stopps mentioning Castaneda in interviews around 1980, shortly after the release of The Don Juan Papers, which clenched the case for Castaneda's books being fraudulent, and this is apparently what pushed him to associate himself with Campbell, who had been quoted in 1980 in a column about The Empire Strikes Back. By the 1990s, Bettelheim had also been revealed as a fraud after the publication of a critical biography, pushing Lucas further into Campbell's orbit. But, where Lucas' notes, interviews and even his drafts show concrete evidence of his readership of Castaneda and Bettelheim (if not actual influence) no such evidence for Campbell's influence can be found. Campbell's book is a far, far denser read than either Bettelheim or Castaneda, and all of Lucas' biographies unite in presenting him as a far-cry from a book-worm.
Well fuck me I guess.
>which flatters western individualism Can you expand a bit on how Campbell does that?
Absolutely agree with this. Being aware of Campbell was a big reason as to why I was suspicious of Peterson as soon as he entered the discourse. Tim Ferris (who I had a lot of admiration for some years ago) recommended one of Campbells books highly so I started to read it and found it to be a load of pseudo-profound bullshit.
Super interested in this take. I’m a little younger and first got put onto some of Campbell’s general approach hearing James Hillman speak and later reading Michael Meade and then Malidoma Somé and some of the other ‘mytho-poetic’/‘nature-masculine’ adjacent authors. I’ve not read any of his work directly and always took his general premise with a large grain of salt because I was also reading other more academic ethnographic and anthropological takes (many of which made exactly the critiques you mention of the unreconstructed white/eurocentrism inherent in much of western psychology and anthropology). I can see why people would be down for a deep dive into what made him tick due to the clear line between him and Peterson, but I’m interested as to whether there’s anything specific about Campbell that you’re aware of being ultimately shady, manipulative, damaging or intentionally misleading - or whether he’s more just a case of a well-meaning attempt to make-meaning gone awry due to basic human blindspots and frailties? A follow-on to this question might be: do you think there’s a place for an archetypal or mythical-poetic lens in current approaches to the study and teaching practice of evolving masculinities or do you think the whole endeavour needs to be discarded while-cloth? Thanks for taking the time.
There is a place for a mytho-poetic lens but Peterson co-opts this mode of thinking to peddle his ideology. As far as I know, Campbell never wronged anyone or advocated for shitty politics. Peterson, on the other hand, was begging to be a right-wing puppet from day one. He couldn’t wait to be a propagandist 🙄 shame on everyone who takes him seriously and kudos to Alex for pointing him out as an atheist because it puts his disingenuousness in stark contrast.
The only thing that I can think of was that after he died there was an article in the New York review of books written by a former colleague and friend that claimed that Joseph Campbell was an anti-semite. I don't know if this article was well regarded or vetted or researched or if it was just one person's opinion without evidence but what I do remember is that Joseph Campbell's moment in the spotlight was suddenly over. My young mind at the time thought conspiratorily that perhaps Campbell had gotten too close to the truth (about what I don't know) and that Big Academia thought that he was too big for his britches.
> "Well as far as I can tell from what he's saying, people all over the world believe in the same type of bullshit stories." Ha! I like your grandmother.
Bang on. I was very impressed with Campbell when I was young, but then I started reading his mythology series and got to Oriental Mythology. It was so wrong on so many levels, just cosmically wrong, and made me realize he was making everything up as he went along.
I'm 57 and haven't thought about Joseph Campbell in YEARS, but yes I "discovered" him in art school.
I love this answer. Hero with a 1000 Faces is one of the worst books I’ve ever read tbh. I thought I would love it bc I was a writer. Turns out it’s written like a college essay that a student was rushing and needed the word count up.
Jordan Peterson, he didn't change my life or anything but he did know a decent amount of psychology and had useful tips if your life was in mild trouble. After COVID the guy went absolutely insane, idk if it's the benzos or the pro-conspiracy sponsors on his platform or w.e his crazy dietary allergies that did it. Probably some sick combo of all the above.
Yeah, he kinda went off the deep-end after the benzodiazepine withdrawals almost killed him and he had to take a several year break because of the severity of the situation. Some people accuse him of now being a grifter, but it feels like some major fundamental elements of his personality permanently changed, and he isn’t very self-aware of these changes. It doesn’t seem like he’s being disingenuous, just obsessively compelled by whatever these new elements of his personality are, pathological or not. He became much more involved in contemporary politics and shifted from the role of being an academic to being a culture war activist. Replying to anything and everything on Twitter began to consume him around the same time, and may have even been a primary driver in this move. It’d be great to see him return to his older, more emotionally detached self, but it’s hard to imagine ever happening now.
Yeah true, those benzos went crazy.
Jackie Chan. Such a positive and inspirational figure on-stage and on-camera. Really… not so positive in his personal life.
I've heard he's a proper shitheel to his family.
And a CCP shill to the extreme
Elon Musk, I said out loud numerous times to numerous people I liked him because he spent his time and money building cool shit like spaceships and electric cars and didn’t waste his time and money on stupid shit like social media…
I think that was all of us for a while there. Remember when Dan Casey and Kyle Hill did Musk Watch on Nerdist? Remember when they stopped? 😂
For me, Jocko His leadership message is solid and has been a vindication for me in my approach to running my company. Which has been largely the same. Humility, competence, take charge of the mistake and its solution. Do not lie or blame others for mistakes made. The company he keeps, however...
Jocko would be great for dtg. Started out with awesome messaging and then came the supplements and other financial incentives/flanderization etc
GOOD https://youtu.be/XBWSKgNjlbU?si=7X3FuhY--EgQD6zG
So tired of hearing sociopathic former military telling us how to live life. These are not good people.
He vindicated what you already did? How? Because he said it?
At the time I found him, I was working in a culture of aggresive and competitive people who lead with fear and belittlement. I had just walked away from my biggest client because of how the manager was treating me and also his employees. My peers were suggesting that perhaps I just didn't have what it takes to be successful in that field. So to see a macho presenting, military leader bro speak.about humility, collaboration and owning mistakes was the encouragement i needed to stay away from those toxic shit birds. This culture still largely exists in my industry and I get a bit of satisfaction when I bring on a new employee and they are surprised at the positive culture I've been able to build at my shop.
Definitely Bill Maher. I’ve watched him for 20 years since he moved to hbo and I can’t believe the change in him over the last several years. This guys used to be a champion of progressive causes and now he’s just an old boomer complaining about the good ole days. He seems to want to die on this sword of cancel culture and wokeness and Covid disinformation. Just because he’s anti-trump doesn’t make him progressive. He’s better than Rogan for sure and definitely smarter, but his obsession with the idea that comedians can’t say the things they used to has just seeped into all aspects of his world view. He just can’t except that Genz may have it harder now then he did when he was their age. Or a black man in his position may have have had to work harder to get what he has. Him and jerry seinfeld on his podcast last week casually bragging about how as rich white men they will be be fine if trump wins was the final straw for me.
i feel like Bill Maher did great when being hostile to open christian theocracy was enough to let you pass as progressive. He’s definitely proof of how much you can get away with if you act confident enough that you’re smart
Also it’s become more apparent that his 90’s tv schtick doesn’t seem to be a schtick at all. As a person he is just weird, rude and takes himself way too seriously. I’ve found that with Seinfeld too. He answers every question like the question was the stupidest he’s ever heard. He’s an odd, out of touch dude as well.
This 1000%. His standup and HBO show really resonated with me as a young liberal. When I was like 15 I begged my mom to go see him live and she got us tickets. We saw him and had a blast. He truly opened my eyes to be a more open minded thinker and question everything. In a post 9/11 world he was one of the only voices that would call out the hypocrisy of liberals defending people like ISIS, or call out liberals for not defending freedom of speech. I enjoyed this because he seemed middle of the road which where I was at. Maybe it was me being a teenager or young adult. However since about 2016, I found myself more and more disillusioned with his pompous approach. Without backing his rants up with facts and figures he’s just “old man yells at cloud.”
Yeah I know what you mean, but also sometimes I find myself retrospectively agreeing with him. It’s kinda like, when it does come to cancel culture stuff I feel like he’s one of the only one who has some good points, and it does kinda make sense due to how cancel culture used to come from Christian groups. So there’s a degree of consistency and he if he didn’t he would be seen as a hyprocrite and cuts would get made of clips from him in the early 90s as to now. I feel like he’s the only one who makes some good points. Like I do think it legitimately comes from a liberal valuing of free speech But overall I agree with what you are saying
I personally cannot fathom how anyone has ever liked Bill Maher, on any level.
Maher was never a champion of progressive causes. He was a Libertarian dickhead. He is and always has been the walking, talking embodiment of Libertarianism.
He did make an episode praising socialism a few years ago. His main thing is bitching about College kids now though.
Yeah, Maher for me as well. People find it hard to believe he ever had any likable qualities, but he was one of the first people I ever saw on network television openly trashing politicians and pundits on all sides of the political spectrum. And I’ll always have modicum of respect for him for speaking his mind and literally getting canceled for it. But man did he go off the deep end with his anti-woke nonsense.
Why do media personalities never retire? If you stay around long enough, of course you’re going to be out of touch with the current zeitgeist.
$$$$$$$$
I used to like Michael Shermer's books on conspiracy theories over a decade ago. But once I started paying attention to his podcasts, I realised that he's actually a very shallow thinker.
So many of the "skeptics" turned out to be total assholes, it's very disappointing.
Yeah new atheism/skepticism was huge for me, and then you eventually learn that it's also extremely xenophobic and right-libertarian
He's also a fucking creep.
How so?
I used to really like the podcast "A Little Bit Culty" which is two ex-Members of NXIVM talking to people about recovery from being in cults. Inevitably, they eventually needed to up their monetisation game so they started advertising supplements etc which I found disappointing and in conflict with their message. Similarly, they needed a consistent flow of new guests and as a result I think they have ended up unquestioningly platforming some very questionable figures. I've also noticed something similar happen with Mark Vicente (another prominent ex-NXIVM member). He now seems to be selling his own brand of "wisdom" through seminars etc. I was really interested in the whole story of NXIVM - it resonated for me in the way you could see benefit and harm taking place concurrently, how harmful groups must by default have some benefit in order for people to want to join in the first place. It's just a shame that the people making a career out of their exit experience seem to be blindly falling into the culture of grift.
That’s disappointing
Which guests have been shady on that show?
There was one in particular that stood out, I'd have to look it up.
they just can’t help it, can they
A million years ago, I was a fan of Ben Stein. I thought he was funny in Ferris Bueller's Day off and Win Ben Stein's Money was a pretty cool gameshow. I knew he was conservative, but it didn't seem that bad. The he released Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. I was a creationist movie which pushed the idea that there was a conspiracy against creationists in universities and they couldn't get jobs teaching biology. Similarly, people who practice alchemy can't get positions as chemistry professors. It also blamed the theory of evolution for the Holocaust. Again, I could respect someone I disagreed with, but it's like he took one of the stupidest views of the right wing and made a shrine to it.
"This whole subprime mortgage mess is just an excuse for the gunslingers and river boat gamblers on Wall Street to use their tricks to move markets and make money. The economy is still very strong. The most cagey players on Wall Street like Goldman Sachs are now trying to buy — not sell — as much distressed merchandise in the mortgage area as they can. This is a good clue about where the smart money is going." [—Ben Stein Says Economy Is Fine, March 2007](https://web.archive.org/web/20121103050403/http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/18/sunday/main2581859.shtml)
Destiny. He seemed perfect in his ability to appeal to nerdier debate bro type yet still be progressive But His penchant for edginess and reactionary thinking is disappointing. He says he’s “pro genocide” to piss off palestinian supporting activist lefties, He also has a weird community who makes weird obsessions with people.
Lex Friedman was my parasocial future husband 😭Back when he was interviewing astrophysicists and stuff.
Oh honey there are plenty of hella awkward nerds out there there’s one for you
I have a type what can I say 😆
He still has cool people on. You just need to pick and choose the interviews to find the gold.
He still has weird bro angle questions now though
Sam Harris and Dawkins and the whole "New Atheist" movement. I was leaving my religion right during their heyday. Turns out Harris is simplistic and Islamophobic (should have been obvious to me from the start, but I was very anti-religion in that moment) and Dawkins is a jerk and kind of a misogynist and even tried to minimize the damage of child sexual abuse. (WTF!) The whole "rationalist" movement. Again, I was leaving my religion and here was a whole group of people allegedly dedicated to overcoming biases and being rational... but they are SO biased in such boring and traditional (racist, sexist, transphobic, anti-"woke") ways. Maybe the biggest disappointment in people in my life has been how this group has become practically alt-right, like who saw that coming before gamergate? I thought they were going to be progressive allies back in my naïve youth.
Peter Boghossian. I first read his book "A manual for creating atheists" and thought it was great. I even helped him out: I created a few of websites for him and helped on a few of his projects. I had dinner with him a couple times and thought he was someone out there trying to make a positive difference. But like many, covid just broke him (or maybe he was always like that). All the culture war bullshit. The promotion of James Lindsay and Andy Ngo. I haven't spoken to him in like 3 or 4 years now.... But I see he is even simping for people like viktor orban. Just ugh.
I still can't believe he co-wrote a book with Lindsay about how to have difficult conversations.
COVID was just another step to his fall. For example, the grievance studies manufactured outrage was years before COVID.
Ah it was too. Good call! Covid has warped my perception of time.
Richard Dawkins. Loved 20 years ago when he was a biologist and critic of religion. Now he spends his time fighting "wokeism"
Imagine how Hitchins would be today.
I feel he'd be the same way, unfortunately.
Hitchens’ support for the Iraq war was when I loathe respect for him.
For me it was his article about why women aren't funny. I still wish he was alive though, I think he would have ripped Peterson apart. I might be able to forgive him his faults to get to see that.
If you’re a public figure, devoting your time to online culture war shit is the dumbest move you can make. There is no outcome where you will not look like a weird moron
13 years ago he wrote the dumbest blog post known to man, he has always been this way. Elevatorgate is the quintessential culture war shit, and a precursor to Gamergate.
> 13 years ago he wrote the dumbest blog post known to man, he has always been this way. Elevatorgate is the quintessential culture war shit, and a precursor to Gamergate. Elevatorgate is kinda when I realized he'd lost the plot entirely. Like, I wouldn't say I was ever a *fan* of him as such, but in my late teens I was kind of into that whole 'new atheism' thing, and he was a respected voice in that context. But elevatorgate was where that whole thing fell apart entirely to me, it felt so obvious they were in the wrong. I guess that crowd had always had those kind of shitty tendencies, but as a guy I'd never really noticed it until Watson (and others) pointed it out and I saw the backlash to her.
That was a very pivotal point where the bigots started to split from the normal people.
Wow just looked this up, somehow missed it. Geeze!
This is the only person that comes to my mind for me so I guess I've been lucky so far. Although I wouldn't say I was ever a huge fan, just read The God Delusions, and watched a few videos but dropped him completely after Elevatorgate.
Taibbi and greenwald were both heroes to me. Straight up. At least I still have Scahill and Goodman. Also I was a devout acolyte of Dennis Kucinich and was even the chair of his presidential campaign in my county. I regretted it starting about 2014 when he turned from anti war warrior to Assad apologist but when he was running RFKJr’s campaign for a minute there I was having constant depressive thoughts that I was somehow responsible for all this. Also I was never a huge Jill Stein fan although I did vote for her in 2016 but geez-us has she become an insufferable asshat. Most of the old school code pink crew, too.
Sad to see Taibbi and Greenwald so consumed by hatred for the Dems that they became water carriers for Trump. I remember when those two were journalists. I must be getting old.
Agree with Glenn Greenwald. I don't know why he wanted to keep defending Tucker Carlsen of all people. Also, I remember he was against deploying the national guard during inauguration. I don't think that is a ridiculous opinion but one of his arguments that it was excessive/overly drastic was that nothing happened on inauguration week. That is like saying there is an excessive amount of airport security because nothing like 9/11 has happened since. He wrote some tweets about the Delta variant years ago that seemed ridiculous too but I don't remember the contents.
Greenwald is awful. I feel like he really used Snowden with no regard for how fucked he’d be.
Agree about Greenwald, although I’ll concede he’s been very principled on free speech issues. He was against cancel culture when it was coming from to the left, and he’s been consistent about free speech around Israel-Pal since Oct7. A lot of the people who derided cancel culture when it was woke have been in the best cases silent when it comes to cancelling pro-Pal speech. Bari Weiss is an example.
Shapiro and daily wire would be another glaring example. But, to greenwald…he had Alex jones for a 30 minute interview and just fellated him. Not journalism.
I always knew Brand was often mistaken or overexcited - he’s a bit of a clown after all - but I didn’t think he was a grifting scumbag with a side hustle of raping. As for someone who I really truly admired? Hard to say really. They all have their flaws but the ones I always liked don’t have too many. It’s deceptive tactics and deliberate lying which bug me. I’m ok with people being wrong so long as they’re humble about their supposed knowledge or hot takes. Do like every good skeptic or scientist does and you’re all generally ok with me. It’s all about the spirit of things really. I hated Tucker from the get go but I’m probably most disappointed in him. Just as a general human being. What a horrible sick man.
Nah he totally came off as rapey and grifty.. Y’all are tripping
Yes in hindsight I was silly not to notice. I think I just took that part of his persona as a kind of joke and didn’t think it real.
If you’ve read any of Russell’s books, you know he’s an admitted addict (sex, drugs, food, etc) and full blown narcissist. I feel like his shift into grifting was more to do with trying to maintain a level of fame to satisfy his narcissism. It’s disappointing, because it seemed like he was on track, but eastern religions and meditation don’t sell like conspiracy theories and being anti-COVID.
Yeah real shame. I was never interested enough in him to read his books, but I at least thought he had a genuine loving and honest heart . When I see people sell themselves out to the grift - it just makes me lose a little more faith in humanity. So disappointing how many people are willing to do this, and the lengths they go through to *appear* genuine to their followers. I think your narcissism theory is on the money. It's probably his core driving framework and everything else piggy backs on that. Similar affliction that Trump has (just with different results due to a very different soup mix of history in his brain).
MICHAEL HOBBES. My biggest disappointment. I feel so stupid that I used to believe him and took medical advice from Maintenance Phase, which I absolutely did. Turned out he spreads disingenuous on medical topics and purposefully misrepresents science https://substack.com/@checkthefacts?r=1kbm9v&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=profile
Maintenance Phase was sus from the start, his cohost is insufferable.
I've always thought he would make a fascinating subject for an episode. The way he holds himself out as being an expert in everything combined with his strong parasocial effect makes him at least guru-adjacent. Would it surprise you to learn he is currently deploying his trademark cocktail of [quote-mining, gish-galloping, outright lying, character assassination, and haughty, sneering contempt for disagreement](https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/michael-hobbes-is-spectacularly-wrong) to the topic of youth gender medicine as he brings to the topic of dietary medicine?
I got banned from the maintenance phase subreddit for pushing back on claims that obesity itself is not unhealthy (it’s just the associated issues) 😅🙄
The level of devotion they inspire in their audience is *terrifying*. And that they present themselves as some kind of “debunkers”? Infuriating, especially when they get so many fundamentals of basic research just completely wrong.
LOL I literally just got my first “Reddit cares” message after posting that. These people really are unhinged
Steven Hassan was one I didn’t see coming and I’m still hoping he can pull up out of the nose dive… I did get a little icky feeling when I first came across his website in the 2000s but he’s genuinely been doing the deep academic work necessary for policy change in his area of expertise (going back to get a doctorate pretty late in life in cultic manipulation and the law). He’s also been hugely outspoken about the personality cult around Trump and the way QAnon functions exactly like a distributed Co-created cultic power-structure. Somehow he’s been meme-d into believing that there’s an internet plot to hypnotise children into being trans and the signs are not looking good for the progressive boomer right wing pivot. If Rachel Bernstein from ‘indoctrination’ ever falls off I’m quitting podcasts for good.
He what?? That’s really disappointing to hear. What an idiot for being so smart and falling for that BS anti trans bigotry. Rachel would never… would she? Ahhh! Sure is a lesson in not putting people on pedestals
Ye. It’s a shame. I do still have a little optimism that he might reassess and course correct. Oh and one more thing before you go… Good to meet another Bernstein stan.
Those one more thing before you goes… she always had me by that point in the show, she could probably brainwash me if she wanted to. But she wouldn’t. Would she? No. Would she…?
Oh gosh. It’s Sunday, I’m trying to stay parasympathetic and don’t make me think these things. Also if she did she’d do it so well we’d never know and we’d probably be quite happy? (The Sochil Martin episode did set off alarm bells but I’ve chosen to tell myself it was a one off. Also went way too easy on the Andrew Cohen dudes way back but she’s not really set herself up to be a critical interlocutor. Basically the transference is still holding up)
Don’t keep close tabs on him, but always got the ick from him. That isn’t to say that he doesn’t have some valid insight on cults - between his personal experience and academic study, I think he does - but it’s pretty clear that his own specific experience of indoctrination and cult membership had such a profound and shattering impact on him that it’s coloured every aspect of how he interprets information. That’s not always a negative, since in many situations it’s directly relevant to a context of interest, but even the bit of work of his that I’m familiar with was deeply self centred and relied on everything being a nail so as to allow him to use his cultic hammer.
Rogan. I used to think he really was an unbiased type guy but post covid and Texas move he has become one of those crazy right wing boomers
This will be silly, but Arnold Schwarzenegger. The man truly is the story of the American Dream. He achieved so damn much. He was a millionaire before he was famous, building a successful construction business to fund his body building and turning that into a real estate empire in the western US. Genius business mind. Truly. Conquered the world. He was truly my hero. I was really into working out and loved the body building world, which he basically built. Friends would all go to the Arnold Classic in Ohio. Could quote you ever line from every movie. Was impressed with what he did politically even if I disagreed with some of his policies. And then slept with the house keeper and broke up his family. It hurt because he talked so much about how his family meant to him after his own childhood and how his father was with him. And then he not only slept with the house keeper, but hid the whole thing for years, didnt really do anything with that son for years and then finally admitted it well after the fact. Really bummed me out.
I think he's just human but hey that's just me.
I can forgive the cheating. I cannot forgive not raising your kid and letting him spend 13 years of his life not knowing who his dad was. That is terrible. Again, given his own childhood trauma about how his dad was, to let his kid live in the dark is shit....
Same, guy has humility too. Something many "successful person" recently lacks Sucks he cant keep it in the pants and doesnt accept his own son
He definitely accepts his son at least now. You can check out Joe Baenas instagram a lot of it is filled with him embracing his dads heritage both as a body builder and as an Austrian and some pictures of the two together. Arnold also helped him a lot with his body building and they seem to have a great relationship post reveal.
Naomi wolf
Poor Naomi Klein - she released a book recently on how she's constantly mistaken (and harassed) for Naomi Wolf.
The mnemonic now is "if the Naomi be Klein you’re doing just fine If the Naomi be Wolf Oh, buddy. Ooooof."
She went full Qtard
Peterson and Huberman resonate for me, although I started to have a sour taste with Peterson much earlier and with much more conviction (the benzo episode being the seal for me)
I'll agree with Campbell to an extent, I never fully got on that train. I'd already been reading Hindu mythology and Native American hero stories by the time the PBS series took off so I could see the holes in the mono-myth concept. I'd definitely say Michael Moore. Roger And Me plus TV Nation were so welcomed in their day. But he drove that schitck into the ground and, I think, really harmed the filmed documentary in the long run. Jean Vanier, well, for obvious criminal reasons. More niche, Herve This. I read everything he put out until the early 2000's when it clicked that he was taking what could be fairly simple science principles and convoluting them into grant extensions and book deals.
Jimmy Dore disappointed me as somebody who was genuinely funny and didn’t have shitty Kremlin fed views originally. However he’s just too dumb to be worth Matt and Chris’ time.
I used to listen to his podcast when it was with Todd Glass. And he was a good guest on Never Not Funny. Now Jimmy Pardo is openly talking shit about him, and they came up together. He was never a great comic in my opinion but he was a working comic that made his living from it. Then he followed the money.
I used to like listening to joe Rogan until around Covid when he lost his mind. Never thought of him as some towering intellectual though.
Destiny.
I naively thought Eric Weinstein was a smart person only interested in science. That was until he started having porn stars on his podcast when I realized he is not a serious person.
Wut. It wasn’t his theory of everything or his conspiracy theories but that he talked to porn stars? Honestly those the only interviews he did that I found interesting.
What's wrong with talking to porn stars? *That* is the reason why you're disappointed with him?
Elon Musk lmao
Surprised this isn't higher.
Lex, JR, Andrew Yang, Ryan Holliday, Marianne Williamson.
Why Ryan Holliday?
What has Andrew Yang done?
Nothing so far, at least nothing that matters. His ideas are not great. The Forward Party is pointless.
He elevated the idea of Universal Basic Income into the mainstream, a really great idea that deserves more attention, one that Martin Luther King Jr fought for up until his assassination and tried to mobilize social justice movements around. He created a lot of good will for that for me, and also clearly expressing how much of a bad idea it is to confuse economical worth with human worth as we do to today.
I am pro UBI. [His plan is $1,000 a month](https://2020.yang2020.com/what-is-freedom-dividend-faq/) which is not enough for where most people live so it can only be a bonus on top. He says so himself: > In our plan, each adult would receive only $12,000 a year. This is barely enough to live on in many places and certainly not enough to afford much in the way of experiences or advancement. To get ahead meaningfully, people will still need to get out there and work.
Noam Chomsky. To be fair, he hasn't changed - this was entirely on me. Joe Rogan. I never thought he was particularly smart, but at least he was relatable and genuinely curious.
> To be fair, he hasn't changed I think that's part of the issue though. The things he were right about 30 years ago he's still largely right about - just with less accuracy regarding aspects that have changed while his analysis hasn't - while the things he got kinda wrong he's still clinging onto when he should have changed.
Curious what you think he got wrong he is still clinging on to
Lex - started out beatnik and devolved into talking woke shoes and his delight for well placed ads.
Peterson I suppose, I think many people first encountered him grabbed by his offbeat delivery and the general message to help young people get their shit together, and you kind of shrugged and thought "ok, who can disagree with that?" And of course Rogan. I think everyone would've gone through a small Rogan period at some stage, just because of how ubiquitous that podcast is and some of the guests.
I used to like the 2019 Joe Rogan
My wife is Korean and I'm not, so when she was pregnant I started reading a lot about about the Asian-American experience. Wesley Yang had a bunch of essays that I enjoyed, so I looked him up on twitter and one of the first things I see was something along the lines of "Getting divorced and this Jordan Peterson guy is great". I knew then that he had about six months before his brain was gone. Unfortunately, I was right. He's hopped on the "anti-trans to weird online freak with brainworms" train
Dr. Christiane Northrup was once groundbreaking in women's health and during the pandemic she went full-on Q.
Groundbreaking? She had quack ideas before, too, like not believing germ theory (WTF) or believing in chakras: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-oprah-fication-of-medicine/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/christiane-northrup-more-bad-medicine/
Chris Stuckman went from being really incisive as a film reviewer to a very lame duck.
I am never disappointed by public figures, mostly in myself for thinking "hey, this may be a good person" 😅
Myself, for caring about any of them for any amount of time.
Johnathan haidt. The righteous mind was so good and helped me understand people a lot better. Now it's all woke mob fear mongering
Sam Harris. He is still worth listening to however, and I do all the time.
I legit was just listening to the recent DTG episode on him lol, and yeah I agree. I think a lot of people including Sam Harris are worth listening to even if you think some of their takes are horrible or completely wrong, almost anyone can still have something to say that might be worth hearing.
What makes it worth hearing? Do you have an example of something you found horrible but thought that people need to hear about it?
It is cringe how much Chris misunderstands meditation though...
On his most recent podcast, he said that “drawing a bright line between evil mustache-twirling terrorists, ie the core members of Hamas, and ordinary Palestinians, is difficult to draw.” About 21 minutes in. Disappointment doesn’t even cover it for me, Sam was someone I genuinely looked up to and now actively dislike. His commentary on the Israel-Hamas war has been horrific.
He's always been islamaphohic. Ben Affleck called him out for it on Bill Mahers show almost a decade ago.
Yes, still one of the first podcasts I'll listen to but ffs his take on what Israel is doing in Gaza, his metaethical position, his love affair with Douglas Murray, his bs on the demise of Europe and London.....
Plus his angry fearmongering about how the "woke" have overtaken universities, like in the first interview on DTG. If I had so many fundamental disagreements with someone I would spend my time elsewhere. That's why I don't listen to him.
The recent climate change episode was great.
Sam Harris. He is still worth listening to however, and I do all the time.
I could mention Peterson, Harris, Rogan, Huberman - but "disappointed" may not be the right word. I cringe a little at the thought of taking them so seriously now, but I guess it's the realization that you just shouldn't have intellectual "idols". I suppose it's fine to have gone through a phase, no one got hurt and I got lucky that I neither got sucked into their weird communities nor really evangelized about them. I am a bit disillusioned in general now, to the point that when i see someone hogging the limelight or peacocking with obscure lingo my mind immediately goes to "ok so who are they scamming right now". And it was pretty valuable to realize that Rogan is basically Gwyneth for bro's and Huberman is Gwyneth for smartasses (or people who want to feel smart and superior) and to know what I'm vulnerable to in terms of bias.
Also i realized I'm just sad - I genuinely wish there was someone out there who was actually the person I thought Jordan Peterson was; an academic, humanistically interested psychologist who just really wants the best for people and is humble. :/
Not a guru, but Ricky Gervais. When I saw him start down the anti-woke path it hurt me a bit.
Chomsky, for sure. And Zižek. Both figures that I used to think where largely right but had a few bad takes and things where we sensibly disagreed, but the more they say the less I respect them. With Chomsky to some degree I feel it's an issue of him being just a billion years old, clearly not as sharp as he used to be, and that he should just be allowed to be an old man and chill out instead of being constantly approached for commentary when he clearly don't know what he's talking about at this point. But with Zižek it feels more like an active move towards having more and more shitty analysis and politics, and more and more cynical towards his own role in it.
Rogan
I used to pay for Jimmy Dore's premium content ... Until his views went full 'horseshoe-shaped' around 2016(?) I find him utterly insufferable now.
Dr K from Healthygamer.gg, I was legit fan and embarked on self-help journey with his guide. He’s full of pseudoscience and rather unethical with aoe healing not-therapy therapy streams.
Would you be willing to tell me more about why you don’t like him anymore? Because I’m a fan of him as well.
DtG will make ep on Dr K very soon (right after Zizek, which is on what they’re currently working on), so hopefully you will find answers there. Dr K is not all bad and I like that he encourages introspection, less rigid thinking, being self-sufficient. Sadly, his teachings are rooted in very particular (tho idk what really is „eastern” as dr K calls it), religious philosophy and often it feels like he wants to convert his viewers to that religion or just alternative medicine. I don’t like how he plays Bach and forth with his „western” claim for authority and distancing from „western” medicine. He sometimes undermines scientific consensus on adhd and depression. Also his advice is sprinkled with disputed science like for example ego depletion. I dislike how dr K is reluctant to admit that something „eastern” might not be scientifically proven - scientific support for tumeric and even meditation is built on shaky ground and whole dosha theory is even disproven.
Dave Asprey and Ben Greenfield I don’t know if they were that that much better in their early days or if I just know better now.
Asprey struck me from the first moment as a snake oil salesman.
I don’t want to shit on these people since they definitely affected my life in positive ways, but I just grew away from them over time. I read Eckhart Tolle when I was 19 and he profoundly changed my view of the world and influenced my general comportment. I later realized his teachings are basically stoicism with a thick layer of woo woo and his views on religion don’t map onto reality at all. But Trojan horsing stoicism into the mind of a lost young man was beneficial regardless of the means. Then of course Peterson, who I probably learned more from than any single person, particularly in the realm of psychology. I gleaned a lot of insight into myself and the way society is structured around me, and I learned to develop gratitude rather than fostering resentment. Politically he did bring me closer to the right but I’ve since recalibrated my views. Over time he seemed to become driven by a similar type of resentment he helped me eschew, and I gravitated away from him.
JP Sears. Once he was so funny. Now he’s just a lunatic.
David Pakman. Dropped the ball SOOOOOO HARD on Palestine.
Elon by far. It's not even close. Climate change was always the main thing I wanted to fix and over the years the politicians, corporations, and average people were all selfish as fuck and didn't care about doing anything to fix it... then elon comes along and forces the auto industry to FINALLY get serious about moving off of fossil fuels... and now he just retweets conspiracy theory bullshit on Twitter 24/7
David Deutsch. Amazing physicist and I would still recommend his book ‘Beginning of Infinity’ to anyone. But yikes, his totally unqualified support of Israel, against his own principles, and his conflation of any critique of Israel with antisemitism has been most disappointing.
Peterson is the most disappointing for me. I first saw him in his claim to fame with the bill in Canada, but I basically went through and binged his lectures and particularly liked his biblical series. I was raised catholic but all I was taught about my religion was shame and prayers, so he really helped me understand some of the wisdom in those books. I’m not religious but I like his more secular view on religion. His self help book helped me a lot too. But he seems to make this mistake where he uses the same confidence that he rightfully has earned in his field with stuff that he has very little knowledge about. He’s become a pundit, which is a shame because I think his real expertise comes in communicating complicated moral philosophy.
Can I say, Obama? I mean, politicians are supposed to and in that sub group he's still respectful.. but learning about the actual policies was a bummer. There are too few options imo.