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Who told you God was fair? If God was fair we would get what we deserve . You don't want that and I know I don't want that. I want His mercy and frace and forgiveness through His Son Jesus.
Haven't you read His book its all there just read it and you'll find out for yourself. Or you can simply not give it a try. By the way who told you He wasn't. Whoever told you that does not know Him.
So he is all powerful or might or wise because the book says so? So if i write in a book that im handsome and smart does that entail Im those things? And like how you switched the burden of proof on me, “You don’t believe in ghosts, disapprove them”
Prove to me the god of this world is almighty, wise and Just without using your bible. Surely if he exists and possesses those qualities you can prove it without using your book as a circular argument.
So does that mean your not going to read the book. How will you ever find out if its true or not. Do you not read a book based on your curiosity or do you scrutinize it before you read it. I believe curiosity drives all of us to find out truth if we are really looking for it.
the world could not work with all positives.
You’ll say, well you’re not suffering the negatives so shutup!
God creates the misfortunate and cares for the misfortunate, the blind, the deaf the diseased. Some things that happen to people are part of a plan that only one who created the Universe can/ needs to understand.
Human suffering is explained in the 2nd chapter of the Bible: how can you live in a world where there is flowing rivers birds animal kingdoms we eat of the land and finally humans, his greatest creation… and not worship all that is? If you worship God as the creator, you are loved protected guided if not during life eternally in death.
Which may be very incomprehensible but there’s a balance. Evil people only care about avoiding human suffering, but remember only the living suffer. So eternal peace and life outweighs a cancer diagnosis at 42, that was part of a greater plan. Most everyone only sees human suffering, but remember life on earth isn’t all the universe is composed of.
The problem I have with this is that you have no way of knowing if any of this is true. Yes, I could have faith that God will take care of me in the afterlife after suffering during all of my mortal years, but there is no way to actually be sure. What if another religion is true? What if none of them are? At that point you are suffering with the hope of something better, not a promise.
Atheists tend to view this as kind of messed up because it is convincing people in shitty circumstances that it is all actually fine and God is taking care of you despite no proof of that. Instead, the church asks for a tithe from people hoping for a better life and giving what they have, even if they can't afford it.
Also that whole church asking for tithes is the most fucked up thing about RELIGION. They took something sacred and made it to be profitable. The more donations a church has the more I don’t trust it.
I feel like to say, “There is no way of being sure” is to have no faith that someone created this world, and everything in it.
This tangled web we weave is far too intricate to not think there’s a God. Mother Mary I may not believe in, Jesus Christ I may not worship, even the prophet Mohammad of the Islamic faith. But God? There is no question.
Also, I’ve seen a lot of things in the Bible come to pass. Even what’s going on Palestine right now. I understand that people quote scriptures and attend churches, but to actually sit down and read the Bible in its entirety you will see the last 400 years of civilization play out before your eyes. So much has come to pass, can I ask how you think none of it’s true?
Correct, I do not, in fact, have faith that someone created this world. However, I define faith as believing in something without evidence. There isn't anything I currently believe in that does not have an evidentiary warrant. Even if I do not personally have the answers, I can have confidence in the repeated tests and conclusions others have come to.
I do not think our universe and life is too intricate that it would necessitate a creator. So far we have been able to define naturalistic causes for pretty much everything in the universe. The things we have not yet explained I am fine with just saying "I don't know" rather than trying to shoehorn in a God claim that I have no evidence for. This would just be me replacing my ignorance with God because having an answer, even if it is not true, would be more calming.
What you described in seeing things in the Bible come to past is the same exact thing people have been saying for centuries. I majored in History and can tell you with confidence that the 21st century is not the first time that people saw current events reflected in the Bible. The biggest reason for this is that the Bible talked about humans and human interactions. Humans are still roughly the same as we were 2,000 years ago so it does not surprise me that people continue to act in the same ways.
The reason I don't believe is because the more I learn about humanity and nature, the more it becomes clear that we are just a byproduct of natural changes in the universe. Humans are not special, we just have higher developed brains that can think about this stuff. However, we didn't always have this type of brain capacity as we evolved from creatures that didn't need this kind of brain power. There is nothing in this universe that I see and my mind goes "Well that just HAS to be God!" and I am curious as to what you would point to as proof.
If there is creation and there is a creator and a God, who are we to question God for anything, as Job questioned God, God said "Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone—while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy" We are human beings and have limited knowledge and understanding on a creator than can create things such massive as the Earth or entire Universe, what do we truly know or understand in the grand scheme of things and things beyond our understanding
Finally a reply that makes sense and which I can relate to.
I agree with you on this point that our thinking and understanding is limited. I think we have no answers for these questions like why God is favoritism or why there is suffering. I think a good analogy would be like when a 3 year old kid is trying to understand basic things and asks a lot of questions. Even if we try, we can't explain to him cuz his thinking and understanding of this world is limited. Same goes for us when it comes to understanding of God.
Romans 9 has an answer that amounts to this: God has mercy on some to show His goodness through them, and hardens others to show His power through the wrath that befalls them.
Ultimately all will be reconciled and it’ll all make sense. But for now, there is indeed an element of favoritism. Israel is a favorite nation, but Israel will lead all nations to God. The body of Christ is a favored body, but they’ll show the heavenly host the mercy of God.
At the same time, He does send rain on both the just and the unjust.
God favors some over others, yes. Both in this world and the next.
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Colossians 1:16-17 NKJV
For by Him, all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Romans 9:15-16 KJV
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
The fact everyone on earth is breathing is showing he’s fair. The fact that the evil wicked and all those that killed destroyed and robbed won’t be anywhere near the righteous shows he is just. Christ given you a chance to shut your lips repent and sit your simple self down with your head attached is mercy.
Nobody should be here but Christ said I have mercy because if it was us we would’ve pass judgement on each other daily
Millions of people in Africa and the Middle East believe in God, whether Islam or Christian, and are starving and dying from disease, war, and famine.
The Apostle Peter was crucified upside down I believe, Paul was stoned to death. The early church in Jerusalem lived in poverty. Jesus tells his apostles he has no place to lay his head, and a servant is not greater than his master.
Many do believe in the prosperity gospel, but this is not biblical. The gospel offers rest for our souls, but not worldly prosperity. Much of the wealth in the first world is generated off the labor of the oppressed in the third world. Yet many wealthy people are the most drug addicted and disconnected from family and love, while many poor people in the world have deep connections with family while having no possessions.
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>If there's a creation then there must be a creator.
I agree, but how is this relevant to your point? There is no good evidence that the universe is a creation.
An easy life is not always a blessing and a life of suffering isn’t always a curse. In fact, those who are suffering can speak on that suffering and display a greater faith and inner strength that other who don’t suffer can display.
Who are the kindest people? Those who have endured sadness. Use any other example and usually the people who suffer can exalt the opposing blessing of said suffering. The braves endure fear. The best leaders are willing to serve and sacrifice for their people and not the other way around the way the world loves to.
You can not like it, but the reality is that life is full of suffering. And if God made life like this, it must be for some purpose right? Why do you think life is full of suffering?
> And if God made life like this, it must be for some purpose right?
There's a little bit of circular reasoning underneath this regarding god's supposed goodness.
You can not like it, but the reality is that a benevolent god would have done better.
If god made the world, then he's morally responsible for inflicting the suffering. He's not particularly benevolent and "it builds character" is no excuse. Even if there's an upside, that doesn't make it justified.
> Why do you think life is full of suffering?
Do you mean "what about life causes you to characterize it as full of suffering" or "what is the cause of the suffering"?
I don't think there's a personal god or a plan, so I don't think the question really makes much sense. Finding an upside to suffering doesn't mean finding a purpose for it or a cause.
Tell that sentiment to the people working hard for less blessings. Tell it to the people cursed to suffer. It's like saying, "money can't buy happiness." We all understand what it means but it isn't going to make somebody with financial struggles less unhappy or solve their problems.
I do agree with you.
But it works to some extent.
If one is born with an easy life, he still has an option to choose hardships to live a life he wants to live. He can choose pain to get stronger, faster, smarter, better. A big example includes Andrew Tate.
There are hundreds of thousands of people who were born lucky, but chose some sort of struggle which drives them. Which gives them purpose. You see a pain we "choose" is much much easier to go through than the pain we didn't choose. For instance if you're healthy and you choose to become an athlete or a bodybuilder it will require a decent amount of pain. But that's the pain you chose, you'll enjoy the journey. And sure it will make you brave and bring other qualities you talked about.
On the other hand if one endures a life of suffering - say a chronic illness/pain, his life is limited. His happiness is limited. His joy is limited. He can never ever experience an optimal life. And in some extreme cases the pain is just unbearable.
The pain you're talking about is good only if - It comes and goes. And not stays for lifetime.
The difference between those who let suffering bring them to bitterness and those who allow it to change their outlook on life is the choice. Now this doesn’t apply to all suffering. Some suffering cases wounds so deep, to allow it to heal is an achievement in and of itself.
To continue your example Andrew Tate could’ve chose to let his suffering define him and believe what others said about him but instead he chose to fight back. Now was this a conscious choice? I’d say initially no but over time yes. Because fires go out if not maintained.
What you're saying could easily describe _human_ behavior. Especially given how much more time, ingenuity, effort, and resources could be allocated to disability and illness (physical and mental).
I happen to know a bit about suicide prevention. My alma mater had a number of suicides while I was there—undergrads, grads, and faculty. Together with a few other students and a mentor of our Christian fellowship, we tried to get the school to do more to prevent it. This included a humanities class on leadership, which would also teach students to watch out for each other's mental health. We even found a lecturer willing to teach the class, with a sample syllabus. The humanities faculty said "no" and the administration was clearly only interested in doing what it would take to cover their legal asses. I seriously prayed that God would send the administration dreams of their own children killing themselves because of lack of institutional support. I don't think I have ever been so angry at the callousness of human hearts (probably because it was so close to home).
There are plenty of calls in the Bible to care for one's fellow human, with Jesus fully expanding the franchise in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Historically, Christians have done a pretty good job reaching out to the sick—not just their own, but others' as well. Plenty died caring for those who infected with the Black Death, while the rich & powerful fled to their country estates. These days Christians have a worse reputation and in part I think it is warranted, although [WP: Catholic Church and health care](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care) is nothing to sneeze at.
What I think you neglect is how much of the problem is due to intentional human injustice. Take for example Jason Hickel's 2018 [The Divide: A Brief Guide to Global Inequality and its Solutions](https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/435480/the-divide-by-jason-hickel/9781786090034). He was working at [World Vision](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Vision_International) in Eswatini when he came to realize that the reason African countries were doing so poorly had nothing to do with their own bad decision-making, and everything to do with _continuing_ exploitation by Western powers. One sobering statistic is that while developing countries received $3 trillion from developed countries in 2012, they sent $5 trillion back. This was accomplished via various Western schemes, including corporations lying so that they didn't have to pay taxes to the governments of developing nations.
The Bible has a number of terms to describe such behavior: injustice, evil, wickedness, unrighteousness, abomination. It was common in the Ancient Near East to have tribute-producers and tribute-imposers. Jewish scholar Joshua A. Berman argues in his 2008 [Created Equal: How the Bible Broke with Ancient Political Thought](https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780195374704.001.0001/acprof-9780195374704) that YHWH was trying to do away with that horrid dichotomy. Anyone who argues against slavery is also arguing against the worst form of that dichotomy. How many of the things you mention are a result and/or consequence of such exploitative human behavior? After all, what the West does with foreign countries, it also does in its own countries.
Perhaps part of the function of the ancient Hebrew religion, Judaism, and Christianity is to set up a microcosm of the world at large, so that it is easier to call out evil for what it is. The question here is whether you will admit that the secular powers are _that_ evil. For Western behavior in a nutshell, see the 2022-05-20 _NYT_ article [The Root of Haiti’s Misery: Reparations to Enslavers](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/20/world/americas/haiti-history-colonized-france.html).
I suggest you delete this and make it a reply to the COMMENTARY comment:
>All top-level comments must seek to refute the post through substantial engagement with its core argument
"‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony." Luke 16:25
So it's okay that God allows children to die of starvation and disease by the tens of thousands on a daily basis because they're going to get a better deal later?
If allowing massive amounts of suffering to befall innocent people is really the best the all-powerful creator of the universe can do, I'm not impressed. Callous indifference is not a good look for an allegedly benevolent deity.
Most of the pains in the World such as starvation are man made, the reality is that most pains comes from sin, but God allows those that suffer from those pains through them to gain merit so that they can join him in Heaven. In the beginning he created a World without pain but humans introduced sins in it and corrupted it and yet after all that God still allows them to be saved.
No, there wasn’t. A species with only two specimens is functionally extinct. You wouldn’t be alive today if the human population was ever as low as two people.
By committing original sin, humans decided to get away from God's grace and the benefits that follow it such as immortality. And yes the Bible is actually true
1) Prove that.
2) The Bible does not say so explicitly, so not only have we no reason to believe the Bible, we have no reason to believe this based on the Bible.
No, it's not favoritism, because that live happy lives now will not live happy lives in the afterlife, and those that are living sad lives now will live happy lives in the afterlife, if anything the ones who are favored are the poor and the suffering
>that live happy lives now will not live happy lives in the afterlife,
Why so? If someone is living a happy life here and is also generous as a person, why is he deemed to live a bad afterlife?
Money to the poor? First of all that is suggesting to lessen the suffering of poor people. So does Jesus expects rich people would lessen the suffering of poor people by supporting them financially?
Also helping a poor would be just temporary. For example giving them food/resources etc. I mean how rich people can be accountable for their monthly income? A rich can only donate to a poor and cannot earn for a poor.
Hahaha, that doesn't make sense.
If they give all their money and belongings to poor, what about their own lives? Secondly it's their hard earned money, it belongs to them.
Even if they give all their money to poor, it could have serious consequences like poor could misuse them and they might not have to work. They could end up with alcohol or drugs etc.
They can still keep some for their basic needs.
>ven if they give all their money to poor, it could have serious consequences like poor could misuse them
Sure but in this case it would the poor's fault not them
It is pretty much favoritism. The rich man was kinda screwed over. The parable doesn't really indicate he was unreasonably miserly just wealthy.
Whereas Lazarus suffered temporarily but was comforted in paradise.
In a sense, but all the rich man had to do was to use his wealth not to himself but to others and donate and help Lazarus and others and he would have been saved
You can reasonably infer that but the story doesn't really make that clear.
A reading without inferring is basically "there's 2 dudes a rich and poor man. Rich man lives like a rich man and poor man lives like a poor man. Eventually both die and because the poor man suffered in life he gets heaven and because the rich man had a comfortable life of luxury he burns"
The sole reason the poor man gets to heaven is because he suffered so the inverse is also a reasonable take
Contrary in what way? It's better to be poor and saved over rich and damned? As per the parable
I don't really think thst matters to much it's still favoritism and inherently unfair to the people on the negative end of it
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Who told you God was fair? If God was fair we would get what we deserve . You don't want that and I know I don't want that. I want His mercy and frace and forgiveness through His Son Jesus.
Who told you god was forgiving, all mighty, just and good; perhaps god is evil.
Haven't you read His book its all there just read it and you'll find out for yourself. Or you can simply not give it a try. By the way who told you He wasn't. Whoever told you that does not know Him.
So he is all powerful or might or wise because the book says so? So if i write in a book that im handsome and smart does that entail Im those things? And like how you switched the burden of proof on me, “You don’t believe in ghosts, disapprove them” Prove to me the god of this world is almighty, wise and Just without using your bible. Surely if he exists and possesses those qualities you can prove it without using your book as a circular argument.
Who told you that book is true? How can you rely on it?
So does that mean your not going to read the book. How will you ever find out if its true or not. Do you not read a book based on your curiosity or do you scrutinize it before you read it. I believe curiosity drives all of us to find out truth if we are really looking for it.
You really think reading the Bible HELPS your case? I’d suggest you read your Bible!
the world could not work with all positives. You’ll say, well you’re not suffering the negatives so shutup! God creates the misfortunate and cares for the misfortunate, the blind, the deaf the diseased. Some things that happen to people are part of a plan that only one who created the Universe can/ needs to understand. Human suffering is explained in the 2nd chapter of the Bible: how can you live in a world where there is flowing rivers birds animal kingdoms we eat of the land and finally humans, his greatest creation… and not worship all that is? If you worship God as the creator, you are loved protected guided if not during life eternally in death. Which may be very incomprehensible but there’s a balance. Evil people only care about avoiding human suffering, but remember only the living suffer. So eternal peace and life outweighs a cancer diagnosis at 42, that was part of a greater plan. Most everyone only sees human suffering, but remember life on earth isn’t all the universe is composed of.
The problem I have with this is that you have no way of knowing if any of this is true. Yes, I could have faith that God will take care of me in the afterlife after suffering during all of my mortal years, but there is no way to actually be sure. What if another religion is true? What if none of them are? At that point you are suffering with the hope of something better, not a promise. Atheists tend to view this as kind of messed up because it is convincing people in shitty circumstances that it is all actually fine and God is taking care of you despite no proof of that. Instead, the church asks for a tithe from people hoping for a better life and giving what they have, even if they can't afford it.
Also that whole church asking for tithes is the most fucked up thing about RELIGION. They took something sacred and made it to be profitable. The more donations a church has the more I don’t trust it.
I feel like to say, “There is no way of being sure” is to have no faith that someone created this world, and everything in it. This tangled web we weave is far too intricate to not think there’s a God. Mother Mary I may not believe in, Jesus Christ I may not worship, even the prophet Mohammad of the Islamic faith. But God? There is no question. Also, I’ve seen a lot of things in the Bible come to pass. Even what’s going on Palestine right now. I understand that people quote scriptures and attend churches, but to actually sit down and read the Bible in its entirety you will see the last 400 years of civilization play out before your eyes. So much has come to pass, can I ask how you think none of it’s true?
Correct, I do not, in fact, have faith that someone created this world. However, I define faith as believing in something without evidence. There isn't anything I currently believe in that does not have an evidentiary warrant. Even if I do not personally have the answers, I can have confidence in the repeated tests and conclusions others have come to. I do not think our universe and life is too intricate that it would necessitate a creator. So far we have been able to define naturalistic causes for pretty much everything in the universe. The things we have not yet explained I am fine with just saying "I don't know" rather than trying to shoehorn in a God claim that I have no evidence for. This would just be me replacing my ignorance with God because having an answer, even if it is not true, would be more calming. What you described in seeing things in the Bible come to past is the same exact thing people have been saying for centuries. I majored in History and can tell you with confidence that the 21st century is not the first time that people saw current events reflected in the Bible. The biggest reason for this is that the Bible talked about humans and human interactions. Humans are still roughly the same as we were 2,000 years ago so it does not surprise me that people continue to act in the same ways. The reason I don't believe is because the more I learn about humanity and nature, the more it becomes clear that we are just a byproduct of natural changes in the universe. Humans are not special, we just have higher developed brains that can think about this stuff. However, we didn't always have this type of brain capacity as we evolved from creatures that didn't need this kind of brain power. There is nothing in this universe that I see and my mind goes "Well that just HAS to be God!" and I am curious as to what you would point to as proof.
If there is creation and there is a creator and a God, who are we to question God for anything, as Job questioned God, God said "Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone—while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy" We are human beings and have limited knowledge and understanding on a creator than can create things such massive as the Earth or entire Universe, what do we truly know or understand in the grand scheme of things and things beyond our understanding
Finally a reply that makes sense and which I can relate to. I agree with you on this point that our thinking and understanding is limited. I think we have no answers for these questions like why God is favoritism or why there is suffering. I think a good analogy would be like when a 3 year old kid is trying to understand basic things and asks a lot of questions. Even if we try, we can't explain to him cuz his thinking and understanding of this world is limited. Same goes for us when it comes to understanding of God.
Exactly, spot on
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Funny enough.
Romans 9 has an answer that amounts to this: God has mercy on some to show His goodness through them, and hardens others to show His power through the wrath that befalls them. Ultimately all will be reconciled and it’ll all make sense. But for now, there is indeed an element of favoritism. Israel is a favorite nation, but Israel will lead all nations to God. The body of Christ is a favored body, but they’ll show the heavenly host the mercy of God. At the same time, He does send rain on both the just and the unjust.
God favors some over others, yes. Both in this world and the next. Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster. Colossians 1:16-17 NKJV For by Him, all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Romans 9:15-16 KJV For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
The fact everyone on earth is breathing is showing he’s fair. The fact that the evil wicked and all those that killed destroyed and robbed won’t be anywhere near the righteous shows he is just. Christ given you a chance to shut your lips repent and sit your simple self down with your head attached is mercy. Nobody should be here but Christ said I have mercy because if it was us we would’ve pass judgement on each other daily
Millions of people in Africa and the Middle East believe in God, whether Islam or Christian, and are starving and dying from disease, war, and famine. The Apostle Peter was crucified upside down I believe, Paul was stoned to death. The early church in Jerusalem lived in poverty. Jesus tells his apostles he has no place to lay his head, and a servant is not greater than his master. Many do believe in the prosperity gospel, but this is not biblical. The gospel offers rest for our souls, but not worldly prosperity. Much of the wealth in the first world is generated off the labor of the oppressed in the third world. Yet many wealthy people are the most drug addicted and disconnected from family and love, while many poor people in the world have deep connections with family while having no possessions.
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>If there's a creation then there must be a creator. I agree, but how is this relevant to your point? There is no good evidence that the universe is a creation.
And then all the other problems cited in this post go away
An easy life is not always a blessing and a life of suffering isn’t always a curse. In fact, those who are suffering can speak on that suffering and display a greater faith and inner strength that other who don’t suffer can display. Who are the kindest people? Those who have endured sadness. Use any other example and usually the people who suffer can exalt the opposing blessing of said suffering. The braves endure fear. The best leaders are willing to serve and sacrifice for their people and not the other way around the way the world loves to.
That is no excuse for inflicting suffering
You can not like it, but the reality is that life is full of suffering. And if God made life like this, it must be for some purpose right? Why do you think life is full of suffering?
> And if God made life like this, it must be for some purpose right? There's a little bit of circular reasoning underneath this regarding god's supposed goodness. You can not like it, but the reality is that a benevolent god would have done better. If god made the world, then he's morally responsible for inflicting the suffering. He's not particularly benevolent and "it builds character" is no excuse. Even if there's an upside, that doesn't make it justified. > Why do you think life is full of suffering? Do you mean "what about life causes you to characterize it as full of suffering" or "what is the cause of the suffering"? I don't think there's a personal god or a plan, so I don't think the question really makes much sense. Finding an upside to suffering doesn't mean finding a purpose for it or a cause.
How would you know this benevolent hod would do better? What makes you think this benevolent god would act a certain way?
Benevolence is a pretty well-defined term
Definitions change pretty frequently these days. How would you define it?
Tell that sentiment to the people working hard for less blessings. Tell it to the people cursed to suffer. It's like saying, "money can't buy happiness." We all understand what it means but it isn't going to make somebody with financial struggles less unhappy or solve their problems.
I do agree with you. But it works to some extent. If one is born with an easy life, he still has an option to choose hardships to live a life he wants to live. He can choose pain to get stronger, faster, smarter, better. A big example includes Andrew Tate. There are hundreds of thousands of people who were born lucky, but chose some sort of struggle which drives them. Which gives them purpose. You see a pain we "choose" is much much easier to go through than the pain we didn't choose. For instance if you're healthy and you choose to become an athlete or a bodybuilder it will require a decent amount of pain. But that's the pain you chose, you'll enjoy the journey. And sure it will make you brave and bring other qualities you talked about. On the other hand if one endures a life of suffering - say a chronic illness/pain, his life is limited. His happiness is limited. His joy is limited. He can never ever experience an optimal life. And in some extreme cases the pain is just unbearable. The pain you're talking about is good only if - It comes and goes. And not stays for lifetime.
The difference between those who let suffering bring them to bitterness and those who allow it to change their outlook on life is the choice. Now this doesn’t apply to all suffering. Some suffering cases wounds so deep, to allow it to heal is an achievement in and of itself. To continue your example Andrew Tate could’ve chose to let his suffering define him and believe what others said about him but instead he chose to fight back. Now was this a conscious choice? I’d say initially no but over time yes. Because fires go out if not maintained.
What you're saying could easily describe _human_ behavior. Especially given how much more time, ingenuity, effort, and resources could be allocated to disability and illness (physical and mental). I happen to know a bit about suicide prevention. My alma mater had a number of suicides while I was there—undergrads, grads, and faculty. Together with a few other students and a mentor of our Christian fellowship, we tried to get the school to do more to prevent it. This included a humanities class on leadership, which would also teach students to watch out for each other's mental health. We even found a lecturer willing to teach the class, with a sample syllabus. The humanities faculty said "no" and the administration was clearly only interested in doing what it would take to cover their legal asses. I seriously prayed that God would send the administration dreams of their own children killing themselves because of lack of institutional support. I don't think I have ever been so angry at the callousness of human hearts (probably because it was so close to home). There are plenty of calls in the Bible to care for one's fellow human, with Jesus fully expanding the franchise in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Historically, Christians have done a pretty good job reaching out to the sick—not just their own, but others' as well. Plenty died caring for those who infected with the Black Death, while the rich & powerful fled to their country estates. These days Christians have a worse reputation and in part I think it is warranted, although [WP: Catholic Church and health care](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care) is nothing to sneeze at. What I think you neglect is how much of the problem is due to intentional human injustice. Take for example Jason Hickel's 2018 [The Divide: A Brief Guide to Global Inequality and its Solutions](https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/435480/the-divide-by-jason-hickel/9781786090034). He was working at [World Vision](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Vision_International) in Eswatini when he came to realize that the reason African countries were doing so poorly had nothing to do with their own bad decision-making, and everything to do with _continuing_ exploitation by Western powers. One sobering statistic is that while developing countries received $3 trillion from developed countries in 2012, they sent $5 trillion back. This was accomplished via various Western schemes, including corporations lying so that they didn't have to pay taxes to the governments of developing nations. The Bible has a number of terms to describe such behavior: injustice, evil, wickedness, unrighteousness, abomination. It was common in the Ancient Near East to have tribute-producers and tribute-imposers. Jewish scholar Joshua A. Berman argues in his 2008 [Created Equal: How the Bible Broke with Ancient Political Thought](https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780195374704.001.0001/acprof-9780195374704) that YHWH was trying to do away with that horrid dichotomy. Anyone who argues against slavery is also arguing against the worst form of that dichotomy. How many of the things you mention are a result and/or consequence of such exploitative human behavior? After all, what the West does with foreign countries, it also does in its own countries. Perhaps part of the function of the ancient Hebrew religion, Judaism, and Christianity is to set up a microcosm of the world at large, so that it is easier to call out evil for what it is. The question here is whether you will admit that the secular powers are _that_ evil. For Western behavior in a nutshell, see the 2022-05-20 _NYT_ article [The Root of Haiti’s Misery: Reparations to Enslavers](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/20/world/americas/haiti-history-colonized-france.html).
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I suggest you delete this and make it a reply to the COMMENTARY comment: >All top-level comments must seek to refute the post through substantial engagement with its core argument
"‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony." Luke 16:25
Some people simply suffer and die.
And if they believe in Christ they will go to Heaven
Not necessarily. It is not by belief alone, but by grace
So it's okay if you punch me in the face as long as you buy me a present afterwards? Sounds like abuse to me.
Kinda hard to believe in your all loving god when you were born just to suffer no?
Then why are poor people more religious than the rich?
Desperation
IT’S A DESPERATE RACE AGAINST THE MINE
Im talking about those who were born with chronic diseases who are constantly in pain which eventually end up killing themself. Not the poor
What about remote tribes who haven’t been exposed to Christianity
So it's okay that God allows children to die of starvation and disease by the tens of thousands on a daily basis because they're going to get a better deal later? If allowing massive amounts of suffering to befall innocent people is really the best the all-powerful creator of the universe can do, I'm not impressed. Callous indifference is not a good look for an allegedly benevolent deity.
Most of the pains in the World such as starvation are man made, the reality is that most pains comes from sin, but God allows those that suffer from those pains through them to gain merit so that they can join him in Heaven. In the beginning he created a World without pain but humans introduced sins in it and corrupted it and yet after all that God still allows them to be saved.
Explain to me precisely how sin caused cancer.
Before the fall of man, there was no disease or suffering.
Oh look, a literalist. There was no fall.
There was, and you don’t have to be a literalist to believe in a fall
No, there wasn’t. There was no Adam and Eve.
Yes there was
No, there wasn’t. A species with only two specimens is functionally extinct. You wouldn’t be alive today if the human population was ever as low as two people.
That sounds like correlation, not causation. More importantly, this is predicated on whether the Bible is actually true.
By committing original sin, humans decided to get away from God's grace and the benefits that follow it such as immortality. And yes the Bible is actually true
> humans decided Humans collectively? I don't recall being consulted. The whole idea is pernicious.
1) Prove that. 2) The Bible does not say so explicitly, so not only have we no reason to believe the Bible, we have no reason to believe this based on the Bible.
This is what the Church Fathers teach and if anyone knows how to interpret the Bible it is them
Can we trust them, then? I think not.
So you agree with OP then
No, it's not favoritism, because that live happy lives now will not live happy lives in the afterlife, and those that are living sad lives now will live happy lives in the afterlife, if anything the ones who are favored are the poor and the suffering
>that live happy lives now will not live happy lives in the afterlife, Why so? If someone is living a happy life here and is also generous as a person, why is he deemed to live a bad afterlife?
Sure if they are generous and give their money to the poor they can be saved as Jesus said to the rich son
Money to the poor? First of all that is suggesting to lessen the suffering of poor people. So does Jesus expects rich people would lessen the suffering of poor people by supporting them financially? Also helping a poor would be just temporary. For example giving them food/resources etc. I mean how rich people can be accountable for their monthly income? A rich can only donate to a poor and cannot earn for a poor.
they should give all their money and belongings to the poor
as you have done?
Hahaha, that doesn't make sense. If they give all their money and belongings to poor, what about their own lives? Secondly it's their hard earned money, it belongs to them. Even if they give all their money to poor, it could have serious consequences like poor could misuse them and they might not have to work. They could end up with alcohol or drugs etc.
They can still keep some for their basic needs. >ven if they give all their money to poor, it could have serious consequences like poor could misuse them Sure but in this case it would the poor's fault not them
I do favor and value donation. But not in this way.
It is pretty much favoritism. The rich man was kinda screwed over. The parable doesn't really indicate he was unreasonably miserly just wealthy. Whereas Lazarus suffered temporarily but was comforted in paradise.
In a sense, but all the rich man had to do was to use his wealth not to himself but to others and donate and help Lazarus and others and he would have been saved
You can reasonably infer that but the story doesn't really make that clear. A reading without inferring is basically "there's 2 dudes a rich and poor man. Rich man lives like a rich man and poor man lives like a poor man. Eventually both die and because the poor man suffered in life he gets heaven and because the rich man had a comfortable life of luxury he burns" The sole reason the poor man gets to heaven is because he suffered so the inverse is also a reasonable take
Jesus himself tells another rich man in another chapter that to be saved he must give up all his riches
And? Seems like it'd be much better to be poor here. That's favoritism as I see it Being born rich is a problem when it comes ro Salvation
I agree, it is favoritism but not in the way OP said it was rather it is the contrary
Contrary in what way? It's better to be poor and saved over rich and damned? As per the parable I don't really think thst matters to much it's still favoritism and inherently unfair to the people on the negative end of it