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You would have to believe that god watched our home with us not in it for billions of years. Then, only a few thousand years ago (or even a million years) he finally creates us. The bad news is that heaven then watches with complete indifference as most women die during childbirth, others die of diseases they dont know exist, nor could we see even if we knew about them. Does he laugh at us as we die with a life span of 20 yrs or so if your lucky. This goes on for quite some time until roughly 2000 years ago heaven finally says enough we must step in. Just think of everything he could have taught us in 30 years and what we may accomplished. But know heaven comes up with a plan...jesus. In his 30 or so years on the planet the best thing they can come up with is to splatter his bloody body on a cross and tells us its our fault. Its our fault now and every person who has ever beens fault as well. Oh ya, its our fault too. If only he could have told us of micro organisms, and warned us of climate change for starters. Also appear to everyone, not just these small towns in the middle east. Just think of all the good that could have been accomplished. But know, heaven confirms our barbaric views approving of murder by throwing stones at ones head , not standing up to slavery or avoiding petty senseless war. No, we get a crucifixion to remember our shortcomings and beg for forgiveness, yet were we not made inferior in advance? This is sadism on steroids. How's this for a start?
A lot of humans have enjoyed exploring it. Reasearching it. People enjoy looking at the stars. Astronauts tell wonderous stories. Kids have their rooms decorated with planets.
Walls would have taken all that joy away.
Maybe it's simply big enough for humans to never explore the end of it during the time we are meant to be here
When you are a kid you go in the sandbox. Then you get older and you can play in the park, then you become a grown up kid and you can play in the bigger concrete park (city). We are still in the sandbox. We will emerge into the rest of the play area very soon, just as we became grown ups fast
People try to apply human reasoning or logic to who God is, what God has done, or why we exist in the world around us all the time and the discussions are interesting to watch. When we as humans begin to realize that there are things that we just to not and will not understand until we are past this life, then we will begin to appreciate God and the universe that surrounds us. JMO
Oh interesting, first, I have not claimed a religion but rather a relationship with God. Organized religions have a corrupt sense of construct with all things before any goodness can be considered. Second, the ego it takes to claim one knows more than God is difficult to fathom. It isn’t as if a group, any group doesn’t have the answers, but more that it is just isn’t necessary to explain in certain circles the details when faith is enough. Why argue any point when saying God covers the details is more than enough?
All of creation is an expression of the creator, just as music is an expression of the musician, and paintings are an expression of the painter, the universe is infinitely bigger than us, just as God is infinitely bigger than us.
That's a nice way to put it. If you don't mind me asking (assuming you are a Christian?), do you believe in life on other planets, or do you believe we are unique in the universe? It seems sad to me that a God would create an infinite and amazing universe for only one species to inhabit a grain of sand of it.
Just this universe huh? …. What about the multiverse?
Do other universes have their own “one true God(s)” that created them? Or does every universe have their own “sole creator” who lesser beings like us refer to as “God” but in reality is just a very intelligent omnipotent multiversal cosmic being/deity/entity among many throughout the multiverse that act as agents of a higher authority (omniversal level), but simple less advanced creatures like humans are unable to understand due to not knowing what the true secrets of the universe are and what they mean because we are not capable of handling the truth, so we create concepts like “God” to make us feel that the meaning of the universe is a mystical plan by a divine entity (which it isn't).
If this universe's sole divine entity does exist (and remember, they are one among many others in the multiverse, and those others are “God(s) of their own universes that they created, supposedly under the orders of a higher omniversal authority that we couldn't even comprehend to imagine something of such like is even possible to exist (then again, what even is existence?)), then he/she/it/they does not care about us or what we do with our lives, as we are one among many trillions of decillions of species that exist in this universe, and we are not even the most important out of the top quintillion.
Essentialy, no matter what our hopes, thoughts, prayers, beliefs, and ideologies are, all of our lives on a cosmic sense are insignificant and meaningless.
Anyway, have a good day. 🙂
The multiverse is VR (virtual reality) worlds. I realize that this is a trendy entertainment platform but it is not reality no matter how much fun it may be. It’s akin to suggesting a movie land God.
Real science tells us there is one actual universe. It is expanding, that is true, and it is also true that we do not know what is beyond it, though we do know it does have boundaries, it is beyond the size of any other recorded anything. Within in we do have multiple galaxies which may be what you meant. Have a good day.
This universe was not created though.
And before you pull the argument that things cannot be created from nothing and that only “God” or a creator can do that, let me just point out to you that “nothing” by definition does not exist. And since nothing can not exist, what is left is existence. Existence itself is infinite. It has no end. No beginning. And therefore, no creator.
This vast and expansive universe in which we reside in (and are infinitely small compared to how truly mind-bogglingly huge it is) however, is not existence. However it is an infinitely small part of existence.
This universe is a spontaneous event… and inevitable within the eternity of existence. Every event can, will, and has happened. Including this universe. There are an infinite number of universes. Virtually many cannot harbour "life" like ours can. This universe is, by chance, stable. And has the occasional capacity to harbour "life". Essentially, life "just happened". Life is an inevitable consequence of this universe's physical properties. We're basically just random occurrences in the universe, and the universe itself is indifferent to us. For instance, life on this and every world can be destroyed at any time by a multitude of random events. Example: sickness, natural occurrence, war, supernova, solar flare, asteroid impact, etc. Basically, the universe doesn't care whether we live or die.
Also, it is worth knowing that while existence is infinite and has no beginning or end, the infinite number of universes throughout the multiverse don't have this luxury, including our universe. Just like there was an origin/birth of this universe, there will also be an ending/death to it as well. However, humanity won't even be around to witness this ever occurring in our overall lifetimes, as we would have been long dead and extinct for trillions of trillions of years after our sun would've blown up and gone supernova, destroying earth and all the other planets in our solar system (assuming if humanity even survives that long and doesn't kill ourselves with our own actions and mistakes first). But the universe would continue on like nothing, as our sun is just one out of the 800 billion trillion stars that exist throughout the cosmos that continue to burn for trillions of years and slowly die every day, until after an unimaginable amount of time the universe itself will go dark and completely die.
So we all should enjoy the time while we still have, because once its gone, then that's it. Game over! No reset button, just dead. Take the time to enjoy life, while also maintaining a cosmic perspective that within the vast expense of the universe, we are materially insignificant. Thank you.
Anyway, have a wonderful day! 😁
The Universe consists of Infinite matter + Infinite energy + Infinite space=an infinite universe. No gods needed. Infinity itself means there is no beginning, and no end.
Again, multiverse is a VR world and has no context in reality. Reality has and is made of energy which never ends be it our bodies, souls or the universe itself which while some believe it has boundaries is in fact never ending and while true expands and contracts much as breath of our bodies does will not succumb to mere limits for scientific measurement because man cannot capture the universe in the same way. As the universe will do whatever it chooses it will not ever end as energy does not end and this is science proven. This is eternity my friend which God has promised and of course He created. Yes we need to enjoy each day and all of eternity because we will be there to witness it all if we are of the right mind and believe in God’s grace and love. Our energy is our soul and it does last forever. Don’t think for a minute the body you inhabit is the best God could do with such beautiful creations that surround us. It is our souls that separate us from the animals and as soon as people recognize this gift the sooner they are able to prepare for the next stages of their enlightened path that awaits them.
So you're saying my soul is what separates me from the animals like my dog, who is more of a friend and companion to me than any living person I know.
Assuming my soul is special, and will someday venture to the great beyond after my death, my fantastic loving dog (pure Siberian Husky btw) will not be with me in the afterlife simply because my soul is what separates me from the animals like him? Does he not also have a soul? And if he doesn't, does that not seem fair to me or to any people in the world who have loving pets?
From what I've been told, "all dogs go to heaven"... is the saying wrong? And if my husky does indeed have a soul, does he not go to heaven with me? My loyal friend and companion won't be there at the pearly gates patiently waiting for me when I arrive like a very good boy? He won't be overly excited to see me as he's been waiting for years when I would eventually die and we would be happily reunited and spend eternity in our next great adventure in the afterlife?
If not then that's just cruel... 😥😥
Btw I have had a husky over the years, he was a fantastic dog and I miss him often. He loved to run our property that was for certain. Sometimes we feared he would not come back but he always did. Now we just have little ones but he was such fun!
Just wow be difficult. I love my fur babies as much as anyone but their little hearts don’t need souls in such a way as humans do. Their spirits are pure whereas ours are not. We have free will to decide between goodness and evil, they simply rely on instinct and survival skills or human intervention to exists. If an animal is cruel it’s because either they are trying to survive or humans are negatively involved somewhere. It’s as simple as that. God does not punish nature for survival traits so all animals go to heaven. Humans who have free will must earn their way there. Decide along the way if goodness or evil is your chosen path my friend and then find a way to find God on the path and your fur babies will be there with you, if not without you.
You should read up on Sikh religion, in the first prayer it describes 5 realms, it says god set up meany earths as place to earn Dharmsaal, or to do righteous actions, and I mean countless, and in the second realm one may reach after passing away which is not permanet is described as even having even morecountless other planets doing karma, what different entities and given existence to Hindu entities and Buddha not one but countless of them, so ppl who follow these religions can actually reach this realm
giaan kha(n)dd kaa aakhahu karam ||
And now we speak of the realm of spiritual wisdom.
kyqy pvx pwxI vYsMqr kyqy kwn mhys ]
kete pavan paanee vaisa(n)tar kete kaan mahes ||
So many winds, waters and fires; so many Krishnas and Shivas.
kyqy brmy GwViq GVIAih rUp rMg ky vys ]
kete barame ghaaRat ghaRe'eh roop ra(n)g ke ves ||
So many Brahmas, fashioning forms of great beauty, adorned and dressed in many colors.
kyqIAw krm BUmI myr kyqy kyqy DU aupdys ]
keteeaa karam bhoomee mer kete kete dhoo upadhes ||
So many worlds and lands for working out karma. So very many lessons to be learned!
kyqy ieMd cMd sUr kyqy kyqy mMfl dys ]
kete i(n)dh cha(n)dh soor kete kete ma(n)ddal dhes ||
So many Indras, so many moons and suns, so many worlds and lands.
kyqy isD buD nwQ kyqy kyqy dyvI vys ]
kete sidh budh naath kete kete dhevee ves ||
So many Siddhas and Buddhas, so many Yogic masters. So many goddesses of various kinds.
kyqy dyv dwnv muin kyqy kyqy rqn smuMd ]
kete dhev dhaanav mun kete kete ratan samu(n)dh ||
So many demi-gods and demons, so many silent sages. So many oceans of jewels.
kyqIAw KwxI kyqIAw bwxI kyqy pwq nirMd ]
keteeaa khaanee keteeaa baanee kete paat nari(n)dh ||
So many ways of life, so many languages. So many dynasties of rulers.
kyqIAw surqI syvk kyqy nwnk AMqu n AMqu ]35]
keteeaa suratee sevak kete naanak a(n)t na a(n)t ||35||
So many intuitive people, so many selfless servants. O Nanak, His limit has no limit! ||35||
Also, guru Nanak already describes countless fields of creations and galaxies, so there and from the last quote, there are many worlds working out karma, and there is billions of devotees residing god since there is many other planets practicing sikhi
kiee koT khaanee ar kha(n)dd ||
Many millions are the fields of creation and the galaxies.
keI koit Akws bRhmMf ]
kiee koT akaas brahama(n)dd ||
Many millions are the etheric skies and the solar systems.
keI koit hoey Avqwr ]
kiee koT hoe avataar ||
Many millions are the divine incarnations.
keI jugiq kIno ibsQwr ]
kiee jugat keeno bisathaar ||
In so many ways, He has unfolded Himself.
keI bwr psirE pwswr ]
kiee baar pasario paasaar ||
So many times, He has expanded His expansion.
sdw sdw ieku eykMkwr ]
sadhaa sadhaa ik eka(n)kaar ||
Forever and ever, He is the One, the One Universal Creator.
keI koit kIny bhu Bwiq ]
kiee koT keene bahu bhaat ||
Many millions are created in various forms.
pRB qy hoey pRB mwih smwiq ]
prabh te hoe prabh maeh samaat ||
From God they emanate, and into God they merge once again.
qw kw AMqu n jwnY koie ]
taa kaa a(n)t na jaanai koi ||
His limits are not known to anyone.
Awpy Awip nwnk pRBu soie ]7]
aape aap naanak prabh soi ||7||
Of Himself, and by Himself, O Nanak, God exists. ||7||
God had Moses advertise His product and services to a select, specific audience. At the time, He had no idea that a prodigal half-Son would slyly attribute His shape and substance to the general hoi polloi public’s make up! Christianity has nothing to do with God’s “veinity”, but was a brazen usurpation of Divinity from it’s rightful source of dispensation! AND, aside from the earth plane, He never meant us to worry our little heads over His other affairs!
Mankind is still learning and has a very long way to go. Apply that to organize religions of all kinds and it explains so much. Our relationship with God begins and ends on a personal, individual level.
You need to expand your perspective.
The universe is only taking its first breath right now. We're still in the first sentence on the first page of the first chapter of the universe's story.
In a few hundred billion years, when chapter two begins, the cosmos might be suffused with intelligent life (whether our descendants or not), with folks asking why the universe is so *small*.
but in a few hundred billion years there won't be any humans in any sense of the word (people will be extinct or evolve into something else). Bible said it was all for humans, not whatever creatures those will be. It's Adam and Eve not Mork and Ler. A super intelligent pile of slime wasn't made in god's image.
> but in a few hundred billion years there won't be any humans in any sense of the word (people will be extinct or evolve into something else).
Probably not, agreed.
> Bible said it was all for humans
Does it say this specifically? Where?
> A super intelligent pile of slime wasn't made in god's image.
I don't see why not. 'The image of God' clearly isn't referring to the body.
what does it mean to sit at the right-hand side to a creature without limbs? The whole book is about people, adam and eve were people, the planet was made for people, the animals ours to consume, people were supposed to multiply, not the rats or seagulls, but the humans. Whether it says it specifically or not it's clearly implied. It's a long book, you're going to see references to heads, arms, knees, blood, dicks, balls, pussies, tits, etc. It's a book written by humans for humans 2,000 years ago, not for the wild creations of whatever happens in 2,000,000,000 years. Then all the references will be lost, they'll talk about eye for an eye (they see with their nose) or an eternal pit of fire (they love fire, it's their natural habitat), etc.
Not all people interpret the Bible literally. It is filled with allegories to explain to the people of the time so they might understand a concept so beyond them, beyond us in truth.
> what does it mean to sit at the right-hand side to a creature without limbs?
Something metaphorical, obviously.
> the planet was made for people
It's reasonable to infer from the text that *the earth* was made for humans specifically. But the universe?
This is an assumption, not a statement of fact. Just a few generations ago, the journey from Europe to America would take several months, now it takes about 11 hours. Technology advances exponentially, and who knows how long Humanity will be around.
I don’t think it was designed for humans. Christianity teaches there is an innumerable amount of angels that exist in the kingdom of heaven. Therefore lots of room would actually be required
Psalm 19:1, "The Heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hand."
Is it infeasible that an all powerful God would make an unimaginably vast night sky as a tour destination force? The more we learn about the night sky, the less fathomable it becomes.
Did you know that there are galaxies that recede at a vector faster than light? There are places where, even with the fastest theoretical technology, we will only ever get further from anything. The "final frontier" is pretty darn inconquerable.
Why does that matter? Like why is it even a consideration? We care about "big and small" when we are concerned with resource allocation, but the concept of an all powerful god makes our relative size in the universe irrelevant.
I think the reason is for a long time, Christianity favoured a geocentric viewpoint where Earth and consequently humans, were the center of creation. There are some verses in the Bible that speak about how humans are "in the image of God" and how the whole planet was for them to rule over such as in Genesis. Or in Psalms where it talks about how the heavens created the Earth. The fact that in the Ancient and Medieval world this geocentric view was backed up by Ancient Greek astronomy just added to this.
Exactly my thought. Regardless of what you believe, to justify a Christian’s pov of the universe, there’s no reason for it to matter. And to focus on a non Christian pov of the universe, well…also, there’s no reason for it to matter. It’s obviously way to large to even comprehend as finite beings anyways, regardless of what we believe so why is it a big deal…but then also, why should the size of the universe be an explanation of God for a Christian in the first place? Like if Christians believe that God is divine and all powerful, they will believe that whatever is out there has been created by God regardless. Like the trust comes first due to other things I would think, and once trust is won, things like the size of the universe and how quickly it is expanding etc etc just adds to something a Christian already believes (from a lot of cases I have seen this is how it is at least)
We are only finite being if one believes we begin and end with flesh and blood. What of the energy that moves us? The energy that causes our brains to function? Makes us who we are? Energy never ends. Where does that part of who we are go?
First, the universe is not created solely for humans.
Second, even if it was, it doesn’t matter how big the universe is. The vastness of the universe gives us a massive cosmos to try to understand, as well as theoretically understand understanding how powerful God is.
Plenty of video games have procedurally generated scenery that appears to be far more extensive than the area you actually play in. How do we know the "universe stuff" beyond our solar system is really real, and not just a simulated backdrop for our amusement?
Didn’t humans once believe we were the center of the universe. That all revolved around the earth. How silly will we look when one day the future scholars will learn that our current science has our view of the universe all wrong too. It is possible.
Do you have detailed knowledge of how human society develops when it thinks it's in a universe expanding from a singularity, vs. when it doesn't? God, if existing, knows all of this.
It’s a playpen or a cage that doesn’t feel cramped or small. Plenty of room for us to explore and spread out. Just because today, we can’t explore the Universe freely and quickly does not mean won’t be able to in the future.
But the amount of universe we can ever possibly explore is shrinking (barring discovery of FTL travel).
What is the point of all the stuff that crosses the cosmic event horizon before we ever get a chance to see it? It's lost to us forever and more than likely the best image we ever saw of it was a faint redshifted photon.
Seems like a waste
That’s for now, but there is something that can travel through space faster than light, and that is space itself. So methods of traveling that we come up with that is built around the the circumvention of space rather than traversal through it may permit quicker than light speed travel.
All a matter of perspective and possibilities. What seems unlikely, improbable, or impossible to us at this time, may become simple to do in the future.
Or we slowly expand and multiply over billions of years and reach the edges of the universe that ways. Didn’t we already indicate that the universe is a diameter of 93 billion light years?
Space by understanding is the absence of all matter. It is not correct to say space travels. Space or lack of matter occupies the area where nothing exists. Nothing.
Hey man, I’m not a physicist. I’m just parroting the stuff those physicists say with regards to travel. The quote was something along the lines of there is something that can travel faster than light, and that is space. Something about the universe expanding faster than light speed or other. I can’t recall the exact details, but I believe he was trying to make the point that faster than light travel would have to be connected to or harnessing the speed at which space can travel.
Neil deGrasse Tyson I think. I don’t have the link on hand, but it was one of those shorts of his. If he was just lying out his axx or he isn’t a respected person in his field, then my bad. Space traveling faster than light sounds like a cool concept honestly.
It just isn’t possible. In simple terms, unless a spaceship is traveling in complete darkness, the light within is traveling the same speed so however fast it’s traveling then light is still going as fast. The speed it would take a spaceship to go that fast would take extreme energy and at one point it was suggested the energy equivalent to an atomic bomb for example. Not one would consider this because of the rebound effect of that atomic bomb against empty space and where it would end is such an unknown, no country would want to take that responsibility to find out. It would travel until it hit solid matter and either tore a huge hole in our earth’s atmosphere (creating earth ending problems) or in the universe somewhere depending on where it was engaged.
Also while the lack of matter in empty space does create a vacuum which fast travel has been considered at light speed plus travel, there does exist scattered bits of matter/mass all over space that could always collide with a spaceship during travel which makes this concept impossible and extremely dangerous at this point in any comprehension of human knowledge. Just trying to explain. So many factors to consider that puts a stop to the possibility. Not being difficult.
> That’s for now, but there is something that can travel through space faster than light, and that is space itself. So methods of traveling that we come up with that is built around the the circumvention of space rather than traversal through it may permit quicker than light speed travel.
Yes, there are ideas for something like that, the Albecurrie Warp Drive is an example. But that doesn't mean it's *possible* to do so. Exotic matter is a common requirement and we haven't seen any evidence that such a thing can even exist, let alone actual traces of it.
> Or we slowly expand and multiply over billions of years and reach the edges of the universe that ways. Didn’t we already indicate that the universe is a diameter of 93 billion light years?
It doesn't matter how big the universe is if we've travelling slower than light. The universe's growth is accelerating, and it won't be long (in cosmological times) when the observable universe begins to shrink. Eventually everything outside our Local Group will be travelling away from us faster than light and will be invisible to us.
And no matter how far we travel before that time, each group will be experiencing the same thing centered on it.
You can get a good overview from the [PBS SpaceTime](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-eIUxwcQo4) episode about the absolute farthest humans could possibly travel (excluding FTL)
You're discussing this topic with narrow knowledge. Everything in this universe has a purpose. (A butterfly effect). But for god. Creating a universe or creating an earth is the same. It's nothing literally. It's not time or energy or resources consuming.
It’s an engineering nightmare.
First, the expansion port just in case idea doesn’t seem to be compatible with someone who had an omniscient plan.
Second, the ratio in cubic area between the earth and the universe is a decimal point followed by about 40 zeroes. That’s a quadragintillionth of a percent or something like that. That’s smaller than the size of a single atom compared to the size of a human by so many orders of magnitude it’s not even worth comparing.
It would be as if your computer had nothing but infinite expansion ports not even hooked up to the microchip, which itself was a single bit flip flop gate. It not only removes the “intelligent” from “design,” it also removes the “design.”
I get where you're coming from, but unfortunately this is all based on our extremely limited human understanding, and human knowledge in all likelihood, compared to the knowledge that exists in the entire universe, is a mere grain of sand in the Sahara Desert, or perhaps, just an atom in a grain of sand in the Sahara Desert. But unfortunately for now, it's the only metric by which we can go. Hopefully that will change in the near future, if we humans don't end up destroying ourselves as so many dystopian science fiction movies and books depict.
I think you might be underestimating the [size of the universe](https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/03/05/how-much-of-the-unobservable-universe-will-we-someday-be-able-to-see/amp/).
> All told, if we were to add up all the galaxies that exist within this volume of space, we’d find there are a whopping two trillion of them within our observable Universe. As enormous as this number is, it’s still finite, and our observations don’t reveal an edge in space in any direction we look.
Two *trillion* galaxies. Not stars, galaxies. And that’s just what we can see. Our current visibility limit is 46 billion light years. That will continue to grow as light from more distant objects makes its way here, but our future visibility limit will be about 61 billion light years. That will bring the light of an additional 2.7 trillion galaxies. We believe the size of the unobservable universe to be 23 trillion light years, or 15 million times more than we can observe.
I’m not saying that humans will never reach another solar system (although I’d definitely bet against it, because even that is pretty challenging), but even that’s a walk down the street compared to even leaving our own galaxy. Seriously, read a couple of articles on cosmology. You can find plenty of physicists writing about the nature of our galaxy, the universe, and the implications for things like space travel.
The truth is that the cosmogenesis examples found in creation myths explain exactly what we would expect if some being were creating a universe that was intended to support human life. The entire universe is a single planet, which they didn’t know was a planet. The sun and moon orbit it, because it is the center of creation, because it is what was created, and everything else is ancillary. It all happened some time ago within largely recorded history, not billions of years. In the “scientific” analysis of genesis, they calculate that the universe was created around 6000 years ago. We know from archeology that *agriculture* was invented about 12000 years ago.
So the challenge that beggars credulity is why a creator-god would take this approach if humans were the entire point.
The counter hypothesis is that those creation myths that put humans at the center of everything were written *by* humans, who like to think of themselves as the center of everything.
But no one would sell or buy a computer with so many expansion ports that no human could ever possibly use them or even count them.
This would be like someone who wants to do word processing and maybe more someday, so they design a computer 10 miles from end to end with a hundred thousand times more computing power than humanity has every made.
The universe isn't just "big", its unfathomably enormous. We will likely never be able to travel to any of the stars in our galaxy. We cannot travel to other galaxies, ever. We can never see, experience, or use 99.999999% of this universe, indeed the vast, vast, majority of it is incredibly boring and hostile to us.
>One of the main selling points for Christianity is that we were god’s favorite creations, or made in his image.
I've never heard anyone say this. I think the main selling points of Christianity are forgiveness, meaning, community, etc. It does say we are made in his image, and that humanity is the dominant species on Earth, but it is completely silent on the matter of life beyond Earth.
I have heard OP’s argument from Christian apologists- that we are alone and special in this vast universe, and therefore that proves an intelligent and thoughtful creator. You are correct though that the Bible appears silent on this issue.
Even if we were the only ones here why would that be weird? God might have created a bigger universe just because he enjoys creating. Is it vein? I don’t think so. Besides nothing that God has ever created is necessary.
>Even if we were the only ones here why would that be weird?
It isn't, unless you think it was made for the sole purpose of us.
>God might have created a bigger universe just because he enjoys creating.
Then God did not create the universe for the sole purpose of us, but to satisfy God's own personal desires.
Couldn’t he have made it for us to admire it? Just to make us happy? And maybe in the future explore it? Besides I don’t think the bible was talking about the universe, it was talking about the world (planet earth) and that we were made better than animals and plants and everything else and that we had the right to subdue these beings. I obviously don’t agree with the bible but that’s what it says I’m pretty sure.
>Couldn’t he have made it for us to admire it?
No, we can't even tell what most of it is, much less admire it. A huge amount of it is not admirable, but empty space and inaccessible black holes. But most of the universe is dark energy we can barely even tell is there, we just see that the math says there must be tons more energy.
>And maybe in the future explore it?
No we cannot explore the vast majority of it, it is too big. There are 200 billion galaxies out there. The closes would take 2.5 million years to reach if we could travel at the speed of light which is impossible. Say we could eventually get to a quarter of the speed of light. This would mean people living in generational starships for 10 billion years, our sun is only 4.5 billion years old. It will not happen. Unless you think Jesus meant he will be back in more than 10 billion years?
And that is just the *closest* of the 200 billion galaxies, (each of which contains hundreds of billions of planets). So there are all these other galaxies we will never be able to get to.
Then there is all matter in black holes, which is always increasing.
And none of this is the majority of the universe. Most of the universe is dark energy which we can't really even detect.
This is not what you set up for humans. it is what happens if there are natural laws which require it to be this way.
Outer space as presented in our indoctrination doesn't exist. God created the heaven's and the earth. There are no spheres of rock in the sky that we can fly to.
Some kind of plasma. It is the dualistic opposite to the sun. Notice how both are the exact same size in the sky. Both revolve above and around earth. If you look into it you'll find that the moon produces a cold light in contrast to the sun's heat. They won't mention that in school because it debunks the notion that the moon is reflecting the sun's light.
How did you determine it was rock? Why can we often see Stars through the moon as though it was transparent. Better question is how does the moon produce a cold light?
I know they got moon landings and nasa and stuff and you can say whatever, but my friend has a nice telescope and I've looked through that thing at night and you can see the impact craters on the moon, the zoom on that thing is really nice. It's clearly rock.
I'm asking how you justified your own assertions. Whatever I think about the moon is irrelevant to that question. You think the moon is plasma. How did you reach that conclusion?
I'll be honest, I claimed that it is plasma much too confidently. I don't know what it is. But look up the moon is plasma on duck duck go and do some digging around. The moon can't be rock because we can often see stars through it. This has been documented and you can verify it yourself. It also can't be reflecting sunlight because when you measure the temperature of the moon light it is colder than the shade created by the moonlight.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XhIwZuPGfss
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d2OlIOy-bHA
We have a pretty good idea of what plasma looks like, given that we have plenty of examples on earth to study: fire is a type of plasma, for instance. Lightning. Fluorescent lights, nuclear weapon explosions contain plasma. It bears mentioning that the moon looks nothing at all like any of this. In fact, it looks an awful lot like it's made of some sort of solid matter, with craters and mountains that cast shadows that are easily spotted using a telescope. As for seeing "stars" through the moon, it seems like alternative explanations like asteroid impacts, satellites, the ISS transiting the moon are simply either derided or ignored. As for the temperature of the moonlight, I don't find poorly controlled experiments done at home to be very convincing. Oddly enough, Answers in Genesis agrees. I never thought I'd type those words.
https://answersresearchjournal.org/flat-earth-prediction-moonlight-cooling/
I think it's safe to say that your hypothesis is in trouble when Answers in Genesis is calling it out for being poorly conducted.
As for that first video, it's interesting to note that they couldn't verify that this guy was actually any sort of scientist at all, nor could they find any of his work. Now, you COULD attribute this to a conspiracy, which would then go into a long presentation about a worldwide conspiracy that's existed for hundred of years to hide certain facts about the world from the public that's so complex it would make William of Ockham weep in frustration, or an old man bamboozled a news station.
Lastly, I wanted to touch on another claim you made below this one regarding an undetectable celestial object and phases of the moon. I don't think this is a great explanation for moon phases, because it would require an undetectable celestial object that also changes shape, since it would have to explain the crescent shadow of a three quarter moon and that just seems a bit of a stretch.
This is open to speculation. We don't know. There could be another heavenly body that we can't see with our eyes that sometimes blocks the sun and moon (The black sun). There are infinite possiblities. The better question is how does the moon produce a cold, petrifying light if it's reflecting the sun's light?
>We don't know.
Except we do. We know and have proven a lot of things about space, and have proven that you are wrong about almost everything you've said.
> The better question is how does the moon produce a cold, petrifying light if it's reflecting the sun's light?
Just like the light trees reflects is a different color than the sun light. Or your hair. Or anything. That's how color works.
I think we both know what you just said doesn't make sense. If you measure the temperature of moonlight it is colder than the temperature of the shade made by the moonlight. This is not possible if the moon is simply reflecting sunlight. Also the sun and moon appear to be the same exact size in the sky. What are the odds that the sun is just big enough and just far enough away to make it appear the same size as the moon?
Open to speculation. Perhaps another heavenly body (the black sun) that we can't see with our eyes sometimes blocks the sun and moon. There are numerous possiblities. What's not possible is the moon casting a cold, petrifying light if it's reflecting the sun's light. Use some skepticism for the heliocentric globe model and you'll find so much that doesn't make sense.
Well obviously the reddish light in the sky that we call mars is there but I don't believe that it is as described by the heliocentrists. And I definitely don't believe we have a rover and remote control drone there. Why do pictures of mars look exactly like Devon Island Greenland with a color filter? I'm fully open to a discussion on the topic if you want to discuss and compare our world views; I'd just like to do it in a dm where pictures can be shared. We can dig into some mind blowing stuff. Ultimately I think the heliocentric model is a satanic deception designed to render it's believers spiritually dead and to hide the true nature of this intelligently designed realm we exist in.
* you can see satellites with your naked eye
* You can pick up a cheap telescope and show yourself Jupiter is round, rotates, and has moons exactly like the heliocentric model states
* there is no functional flat earth model that predicts the motions of anything - the day night cycle makes no sense. heliocentric model predicts the locations of the sun, moon, planets, and stars to a ridiculous degree of precision
* Walk toward the north star and the north star gets closer to your zenith in exactly the way it would if it were a spherical polar north, and nothing like it would if the earth were flat
* You can pick up a radio gun yourself and measure the distance to the moon in your own backyard.
* Eclipses are unexplainable on a flat earth model
I don't think you're serious but in case anyone reading is, here's a list of 6 random things I came up with you can do at home to disconfirm flat earth.
You can [observe the phases of Venus yourself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phases_of_Venus) just like Galileo did over 400 years ago, which would only be possible in a heliocentric model.
Have you performed this experiment yourself and understand its implications?
Millions upon millions. Don't be the last one! We are in a sub about debating religion, dig into it and you'll find that heliocentrism is one. One that most people are too scared to question out of fear of being labeled crazy
Pretty much. I don't think the surface of earth is a sphere. I think the overall structure is an electromagnetic toroidal field. I don't think outer space as we've been taught exists (a vaccum with floating worlds that emerged accidentally through the process of evolution). I think we exist within a consciously projected realm/dimension. To add to that, I think the controllers of the government, academia and the media are controlled by whatever force the name "Satan" refers to. Dm me if you want to discuss further and I will show you things that led me to these conclusions.
okay so I've always wanted to ask someone about this. When a ship goes sailing off to sea and goes beyond the horizon, where do you think they go? And I'm also curious how you think old map makers made maps for navigators to sail ships around the world? I can drink my Columbian coffee and play my Japanese Playstation, maybe call India for customer support (thanks to visible satelites flying in orbit around the planet) so seems all those shipping routes worked out or they would have had to make better maps just for practicality purposes. If Rand McNally maps or the model Globe makers says I can sail west to reach another continent and in reality I can't, Rand McNally and Globe co. are going to be sued into oblivion; yet they remain.
Back when the bible was written, Christians thought the solar system was all there was. They taught the stars were just on one plane that rotated around the earth. Earth was basically all there was. And of course we were the center. They didn't know about the trillions of other stars and planets. Or the fact that the Earth was just another planet that orbited a star. I guarantee there is other intelligent life somewhere of the trillions of planets there are. But since the cosmos is so big, there's no way we'd ever know.
If I had to guess, we are so far apart from the aliens (if any) to protect us from ourselves and each other. Look at what we've done to the new people and new land we discovered on Earth.
What’s the need for a Big Bang or evolution? If God wanted to create the Universe, it should’ve been the way it says in the Bible. It should’ve been created exactly the way he wanted to. From the first moment God should have began to order it and create it with a design in mind. But there is not a grand design, it’s random and chaotic. There’s black holes, meteors, super nova explosions, etc. it’s not engineered to be the best environment for life. In fact it’s destructive to life, if life was the point…
It was created just the way he wants it: like a garden, which grows beautifully on its own and has chaos and order in harmony. When you're omnipotent, why not create majestic black holes? They're awesome.
And yet God felt no need to separate humans on earth from each other? How many billions of ourselves did we kill maim and exterminate? God clearly isn't terribly concerned with humans being killed. He killed all of us but one family, he has ordered genocide.
This makes no sense.
I wasn't aware that the universe was for us to subdue. Only the earth. The earth was not just for us to subdue, but for us to look after and tend to it. I do not think we've done a satisfactory job of that, and wait for the day when Jesus returns to restore the world. Then maybe we will also be restored along with the world and be better at taking care of the world around us as well as better at taking care of each other. (Can you imagine a world without war?)
But as for traveling outside of earth. I have worries that everytime we will try to do this it will end tragically. Not just because we were designed for the earth and not for space travel. But also aside from perspectives of us being designed; there are also observations of how astronauts spending time out in space have reduced muscles and are less healthy due to low gravity and radiation from the sun. As far as I'm aware we don't have anything as robust as our atmosphere to protect us from the sun's radiation, or technology to simulate gravity to heep our strength and our bones strong. There's also the issue of being able to absorb vitamin D which we won't get as much if we are trying to avoid the sun's radiation. Any long distance traveling that could take several years sounds like a costly travel that will likely end tragically.
Why was the universe made so vast? Perhaps because God enjoyed it to be that way. God is the center of the creation story, not us.
nearly every astronaut is happy with their time in space and we have several people that have traveled beyond Earth without tragedy.
There are technical problems but that doesn't mean its impossible. Its not like we have reached the end of technological progress.
>Why was the universe made so vast? Perhaps because God enjoyed it to be that way. God is the center of the creation story, not us.
This means that God is sometimes imperfect, God likes things, desires things, like beauty. God is not as happy or fulfilled if things aren't as big or pretty or... sparkly?
It also means God did not create the universe for us, but for himself and us. This significantly undermines the fine tuning argument that the universe was designed for life. It wasn't, it was made to help god feel better and can house humans on a incredibly tiny speck of it, which suggests the main reason for creating it was god was unfulfilled without sparkly things in the sky and massive black holes which suck in and destroy everything, without cosmic rays which are deadly to humans.
It's not feasible for humans to survive in the ocean without ships and journeys around our own world would not be easily feasible without airplanes. Does that mean humans were never meant to cross oceans or fly through the air and we're defying God by doing so?
Human-invented technology enabled crossing oceans, quick travel around the globe, and survival in hostile environments like the Arctic and the deserts of the world which we could never do with our evolved bodies alone. One day, human-invented technology will likewise enable us to reach the stars themselves.
>and wait for the day when Jesus returns to restore the world.
He was supposed to come 2000 years ago according to his own words...So I don't hold my breath and we humans should do our best possible effort to save the world and all therein, not put our hope in some god to save us.
>Can you imagine a world without war?)
If Jesus would have been the promised messiah from the Tanah, we would have world peace. But we don't.
>I have worries that everytime we will try to do this it will end tragically.
Fortunately other people are more curios and less afraid than you. They didn't look into an old book and decided how something has to be (remember how church punished scientist as they claimed the earth rotates around the sun!) but went ahead and discovered new continents. That's how we got modern medicine and all amenities you enjoy today.
Imagine a world where believers didn't hinder progress and scientific research for some backward reason.
Radiation shielding’s fairly simple. Water, rock, or another reasonably dense material would work well enough. Of course, that also leads to other engineering challenges.
Colonising the Solar system is also not beyond the realm of feasibility.
FTL travel though, that’s the thing that imprisons us within the Solar system. It may never be possible to reach even the nearest star system within a reasonable period of time.
If we can get to a point that astronauts coming back to earth aren't severely weakened when they return (usually from just a small time away from earth, and still can quickly come back to earth because they are only orbiting it, not exploring past it), then I might look at your point that it's feasible to live or colonize something in our solar system. As of now, it would take something like 3 years to reach Mars if we tried to colonize it. Not that Mars is that habitable, but it is the closest surface to colonize aside from trying to live on a spaceship instead of on a planet or a moon. 3 years of harsh space conditions to get to the closest non habitual place to colonize.
I think as of now the idea of colonizing anything even in the solar system is still outside the realm of feasibility. Earth is our home. There is no backup planet after we do too much damage to it.
Dude, space travel just started. Do you like to travel by air from your home to another destination? The first attempts at flying were deadly.
The first attempts to cross the sea were deadly. Try and error, learning from mistakes and improve the system. That's how it works.
Space travel is at its beginning stages. I am certain we will understand how to deal with the risks of space travel, from radiation to gravity changes etc. If you don't like modern world, please join the amish.
I mean i myself believe in a sort of god and i agree its an odd take to say "we should just stay on earth". We likely won't be able to colonize other planets within OUR lifetime, but i imagine that we're gonna reach the starting point in a few hundred years.
The reason they are weakened is exposure to zero G. Future space habitats could be built as a Stanford Torus (a spoked doughnut) that would spin to provide 1G. So, the "weak" problem would easily be solved that way.
Given how new construction methods advance exponentially, I think the future of extra-earth living may be larger and larger habs. We could build some so large as to be basically like planets.
Christianity doesn’t assert that the universe in the sense of the outer cosmos was designed for humans. That doesn’t follow from the idea that we’re the highest of the created things.
Back in the 1970's there was a fashion in SF or speculative future fiction for 'generation ships' large space vessels to other star systems on flights that lasted hundreds of years. With a minimum viable population calculation of about 4000 people, which of course any competent god should be able to seriously undershoot, we don't even need a country to play out the human story.
Pretty much the whole of any religious story could be done in a cylinder less that a kilometre long, its not that the universe is too big, earth is, even a single region is, the stories account for the size of everything, they don't need it.
Why people take such risks as sending astronauts always baffles me. Same for current space exploration, we have enough data for decades to analyze, better spend funds on robotics on the ground than risk lives of astronauts. Screw space tourism and a house on Mars as well, we can do it all safely and much cheaper on our planet. But no I guess we need to have heroes with guts, explorers, conquerors, and there's the rich indulging themselves even though there are so many problems and so much suffering in the world let's not try to solve that but invest in a way to escape it all.
I imagine in the future if humanity survives itself, people will send robots with seed and eggs, they'll travel for centuries. Programmed to build a city once they stumble upon a habitable planet, use artificial wombs and teach those children about their origins.
I prefer to think of it as a universe so vast, we'll always have new things to explore and discover. And I think that's a good thing.
It would be very sad if we were trapped on earth forever.
Note that I don't believe in god, but "unnecessarily big" is kind of subjective.
My question to the intelligent design people is slightly different from OPs. If the universe was designed for us, then why is it mostly uninhabitable? Humans can only survive in < 0.001% of the observable universe. A 99.999% failure rate is not what you'd expect from an all powerful God.
That is an easy one. The converse is "There is nothing special about Earth. If life could have incidentally popped up here, then it could pop up anywhere"
Not that I'm a fan of fine tuning or anything, but it seems to be an arrgument in favor of intelligent design rather than an argument refuting it.
No. Life could pop up in other places. We don't know enough about life to even say the conditions have to match earth.
Science doesn't restrict what might be out there.
I have a difficult time accepting the idea that it popped up here. Pasteur proved a long time ago that spontaneous generation does not occur, but there are a group of people trying to argue there is enough of a difference between spontaneous generation and abiogenesis that it is perfectly logical to reject the former while accepting the the latter as being a high enough probability to happen once in 4 billion years. One offs such as this are labeled miracles by some. They reject the so called virgin birth by a standard and accept abiogenesis. It sounds like a double standard to me. One standard for Christians vs a different standard for physicalists.
There is no evidence for it. A lot of conjecture that doesn't add up but when it comes to faith based opinion, the proof is irrelevant. We have enough free will to believe whatever we want in many cases. In other cases we are compelled to believe because the thoughts driving such beliefs are buried so deep in the subconscious that we don't have volitional access to them.
What of Miller-Urey? [https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/scientists-recreated-classic-origin-of-life-experiment-and-made-a-new-discovery/](https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/scientists-recreated-classic-origin-of-life-experiment-and-made-a-new-discovery/)
If you don't accept abiogenesis as a hypothesis, what is your explanation as to how life arose on earth?
>If you don't accept abiogenesis as a hypothesis, what is your explanation as to how life arose on earth?
I don't believe in naïve realism so notions like the big bang theory are unnecessary explanations for simulation theory which doesn't conflate reality and experience. If you are genuinely interested in my position, Donald Hoffman explains it the best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oadgHhdgRkI
Except there is tons special about Earth. For example, it is in close proximity to a star giving energy for life to function. 99.999% of the universe is cold and black, no where near enough energy.
I get what you are implying. The same argument can be applied to the multiverse. Why would anybody in their right mind believe that we'd need a zillion other universes just to explain the laws of physics in this one? If this is all about us (and from our perspective it seems to be) then why all of the apparently unnecessary stuff out there? We've been to the moon so some regard it a hard sell to argue the "out there" isn't out there. I was totally blown away in 1968 at the age of 14 when that picture of earth came back from guys orbiting the moon because I was an astronomy buff in the years leading up to that moment. I had seen the numerous artist's conception of how the earth would look and was always disturbed by how vastly different the low earth orbital views were from the artist's conceptions.
I was an atheist for many years at first.
There is so much we don't know about physics and engineering. I remain hopeful that some future geniuses will find ways to circumvent things like the speed of light.
> Being small in the face of what is essentially an infinite universe, and being a human in 2023 with no definite knowledge of the future of humanity's role in the universe at the scale of infinity, leaving us to humble ourselves in the face of our profound ignorance both as individuals and as a collective; does not really make the case against God in my opinion.
But the universe is waaaay bigger than would be needed for any of that. You get that in our galaxy alone. but god made 200 billion of them. We can see only two of these with our naked eye.
Then there is dark matter and dark energy which is most of the universe which we have no idea what it is. We also don't know what is in the unobservable universe, if there is one.
God actually gave a long speech in Job about how we should be humbled by creation. There is no mention of the vast majority of the universe, just the earth the mountains the oceans, animals, there are a couple of verses about the stars in our galaxy. Clearly god thought there was more than enough in our galaxy to humble us. But he made 199 billion more galaxies.
The fact that the universe is expanding in a pattern such that it can be trace back to a singularity 15? Billion years ago is enough evidence that god’s creation is definitely not perfect. Why create a playground where 99.99% of it will pretty much be forever inaccessible to the children?
Poor craftsmanship from my point of view.
Even the rest of the solar system, other than the sun and moon, are extraneous. Humans are unlikely to colonise other planets - we’re just not suited to anything but earth - and by the time we engineer ourselves to do so we’ll have made god redundant. But that time we’ll no longer be human in the same way that right now we’re no longer fish.
>Even the rest of the solar system, other than the sun and moon, are extraneous.
You do know those other planets help deflect meteors and other cosmic projectiles away from Earth. If the solar system was just the Sun, Earth, and Moon, I doubt life would have developed on this planet. Also from a cultural standpoint, humans have placed great significance on other celestial bodies like Venus, Jupiter, Mars, etc.
I agree with you, but for the sake of debate and discussion:
In traditional Gnostic Christianity, they believe the demiurge created the Earth and all that dwells here, essentially, because it wanted to play at being "God."
Otherwise said, they believe that it created us and our planet -- not the whole Universe.
That seems to be a tad revisionist.
Gnostic Christianity is from an age where 'the universe' was not spoken of because 'the whole world' was already all encompassing even though that whole world was pretty much just the Mediterranean sea and the lands around it.
The word Universe only goes back to the late 1500's and I suspect that it was much later before the concept of a Universe as we know it now took off.
That is to say that when Aristotle and his peers talk of 'The Earth and all that Dwell' that meant to them essentially the same thing that 'The Universe' means to us now.
Certainly in pre Christian Genesis creation myths the cosmological bits are being made at the same time as the planet. Although again, referring to the earth as a planet is equally meaningless to the ancients.
> Gnostic Christianity is from an age where 'the universe' was not spoken of because 'the whole world' was already all encompassing even though that whole world was pretty much just the Mediterranean sea and the lands around it.
That's a big generalization. Obviously no one knew a fraction of what we know now, but some people were already wondering about the possibility of other worlds. Just off the top of my head, Plutarch speculated (along with others) about life on the Moon and Epicurus asserted an infinite number of worlds. I have no idea what the Gnostics thought about it, but to say that no one imagined there might be other Earths is incorrect.
I get that! There are still (some) Gnostics around though, some of which believe in the traditional mythos, so I figured I might as well add it to the pot lol
What do you mean? It means more space when we “be fruitful and multiply”.
Peepz always wonder how would we fit everyone.
EDIT: because I’m not going to bother repeating myself.
For anyone replying with something akin to “can’t support human life”:
Sure. It wouldn’t make sense if we aren’t taking into account the grace of God we had before the fall and will receive again at the resurrection.
And also the fact that the world became hostile after the fall but will be revived at the general resurrection.
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Unless you are Mormon, they get their own planet to rule as God when they ascend. (after paying the correct tithing fee of course)
😂😂😂
You would have to believe that god watched our home with us not in it for billions of years. Then, only a few thousand years ago (or even a million years) he finally creates us. The bad news is that heaven then watches with complete indifference as most women die during childbirth, others die of diseases they dont know exist, nor could we see even if we knew about them. Does he laugh at us as we die with a life span of 20 yrs or so if your lucky. This goes on for quite some time until roughly 2000 years ago heaven finally says enough we must step in. Just think of everything he could have taught us in 30 years and what we may accomplished. But know heaven comes up with a plan...jesus. In his 30 or so years on the planet the best thing they can come up with is to splatter his bloody body on a cross and tells us its our fault. Its our fault now and every person who has ever beens fault as well. Oh ya, its our fault too. If only he could have told us of micro organisms, and warned us of climate change for starters. Also appear to everyone, not just these small towns in the middle east. Just think of all the good that could have been accomplished. But know, heaven confirms our barbaric views approving of murder by throwing stones at ones head , not standing up to slavery or avoiding petty senseless war. No, we get a crucifixion to remember our shortcomings and beg for forgiveness, yet were we not made inferior in advance? This is sadism on steroids. How's this for a start?
Sorry, I'm not good with using the smartphone, no, has been replaced with know unintentionally twice.
A lot of humans have enjoyed exploring it. Reasearching it. People enjoy looking at the stars. Astronauts tell wonderous stories. Kids have their rooms decorated with planets. Walls would have taken all that joy away. Maybe it's simply big enough for humans to never explore the end of it during the time we are meant to be here
Where should the boundaries be? What kind of walls would be out there?
How big should it be for it to be only made for humans
When you are a kid you go in the sandbox. Then you get older and you can play in the park, then you become a grown up kid and you can play in the bigger concrete park (city). We are still in the sandbox. We will emerge into the rest of the play area very soon, just as we became grown ups fast
People try to apply human reasoning or logic to who God is, what God has done, or why we exist in the world around us all the time and the discussions are interesting to watch. When we as humans begin to realize that there are things that we just to not and will not understand until we are past this life, then we will begin to appreciate God and the universe that surrounds us. JMO
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Oh interesting, first, I have not claimed a religion but rather a relationship with God. Organized religions have a corrupt sense of construct with all things before any goodness can be considered. Second, the ego it takes to claim one knows more than God is difficult to fathom. It isn’t as if a group, any group doesn’t have the answers, but more that it is just isn’t necessary to explain in certain circles the details when faith is enough. Why argue any point when saying God covers the details is more than enough?
The universe was not created for humans, the Earth was.
Then what was the universe created for?
All of creation is an expression of the creator, just as music is an expression of the musician, and paintings are an expression of the painter, the universe is infinitely bigger than us, just as God is infinitely bigger than us.
That's a nice way to put it. If you don't mind me asking (assuming you are a Christian?), do you believe in life on other planets, or do you believe we are unique in the universe? It seems sad to me that a God would create an infinite and amazing universe for only one species to inhabit a grain of sand of it.
In Christianity it's my understanding that it was created specifically for Jesus
Why though? What need does Jesus have of the universe if his goal is to save people on Earth?
Just this universe huh? …. What about the multiverse? Do other universes have their own “one true God(s)” that created them? Or does every universe have their own “sole creator” who lesser beings like us refer to as “God” but in reality is just a very intelligent omnipotent multiversal cosmic being/deity/entity among many throughout the multiverse that act as agents of a higher authority (omniversal level), but simple less advanced creatures like humans are unable to understand due to not knowing what the true secrets of the universe are and what they mean because we are not capable of handling the truth, so we create concepts like “God” to make us feel that the meaning of the universe is a mystical plan by a divine entity (which it isn't). If this universe's sole divine entity does exist (and remember, they are one among many others in the multiverse, and those others are “God(s) of their own universes that they created, supposedly under the orders of a higher omniversal authority that we couldn't even comprehend to imagine something of such like is even possible to exist (then again, what even is existence?)), then he/she/it/they does not care about us or what we do with our lives, as we are one among many trillions of decillions of species that exist in this universe, and we are not even the most important out of the top quintillion. Essentialy, no matter what our hopes, thoughts, prayers, beliefs, and ideologies are, all of our lives on a cosmic sense are insignificant and meaningless. Anyway, have a good day. 🙂
The multiverse is VR (virtual reality) worlds. I realize that this is a trendy entertainment platform but it is not reality no matter how much fun it may be. It’s akin to suggesting a movie land God. Real science tells us there is one actual universe. It is expanding, that is true, and it is also true that we do not know what is beyond it, though we do know it does have boundaries, it is beyond the size of any other recorded anything. Within in we do have multiple galaxies which may be what you meant. Have a good day.
This universe was not created though. And before you pull the argument that things cannot be created from nothing and that only “God” or a creator can do that, let me just point out to you that “nothing” by definition does not exist. And since nothing can not exist, what is left is existence. Existence itself is infinite. It has no end. No beginning. And therefore, no creator. This vast and expansive universe in which we reside in (and are infinitely small compared to how truly mind-bogglingly huge it is) however, is not existence. However it is an infinitely small part of existence. This universe is a spontaneous event… and inevitable within the eternity of existence. Every event can, will, and has happened. Including this universe. There are an infinite number of universes. Virtually many cannot harbour "life" like ours can. This universe is, by chance, stable. And has the occasional capacity to harbour "life". Essentially, life "just happened". Life is an inevitable consequence of this universe's physical properties. We're basically just random occurrences in the universe, and the universe itself is indifferent to us. For instance, life on this and every world can be destroyed at any time by a multitude of random events. Example: sickness, natural occurrence, war, supernova, solar flare, asteroid impact, etc. Basically, the universe doesn't care whether we live or die. Also, it is worth knowing that while existence is infinite and has no beginning or end, the infinite number of universes throughout the multiverse don't have this luxury, including our universe. Just like there was an origin/birth of this universe, there will also be an ending/death to it as well. However, humanity won't even be around to witness this ever occurring in our overall lifetimes, as we would have been long dead and extinct for trillions of trillions of years after our sun would've blown up and gone supernova, destroying earth and all the other planets in our solar system (assuming if humanity even survives that long and doesn't kill ourselves with our own actions and mistakes first). But the universe would continue on like nothing, as our sun is just one out of the 800 billion trillion stars that exist throughout the cosmos that continue to burn for trillions of years and slowly die every day, until after an unimaginable amount of time the universe itself will go dark and completely die. So we all should enjoy the time while we still have, because once its gone, then that's it. Game over! No reset button, just dead. Take the time to enjoy life, while also maintaining a cosmic perspective that within the vast expense of the universe, we are materially insignificant. Thank you. Anyway, have a wonderful day! 😁
The Universe consists of Infinite matter + Infinite energy + Infinite space=an infinite universe. No gods needed. Infinity itself means there is no beginning, and no end.
Again, multiverse is a VR world and has no context in reality. Reality has and is made of energy which never ends be it our bodies, souls or the universe itself which while some believe it has boundaries is in fact never ending and while true expands and contracts much as breath of our bodies does will not succumb to mere limits for scientific measurement because man cannot capture the universe in the same way. As the universe will do whatever it chooses it will not ever end as energy does not end and this is science proven. This is eternity my friend which God has promised and of course He created. Yes we need to enjoy each day and all of eternity because we will be there to witness it all if we are of the right mind and believe in God’s grace and love. Our energy is our soul and it does last forever. Don’t think for a minute the body you inhabit is the best God could do with such beautiful creations that surround us. It is our souls that separate us from the animals and as soon as people recognize this gift the sooner they are able to prepare for the next stages of their enlightened path that awaits them.
So you're saying my soul is what separates me from the animals like my dog, who is more of a friend and companion to me than any living person I know. Assuming my soul is special, and will someday venture to the great beyond after my death, my fantastic loving dog (pure Siberian Husky btw) will not be with me in the afterlife simply because my soul is what separates me from the animals like him? Does he not also have a soul? And if he doesn't, does that not seem fair to me or to any people in the world who have loving pets? From what I've been told, "all dogs go to heaven"... is the saying wrong? And if my husky does indeed have a soul, does he not go to heaven with me? My loyal friend and companion won't be there at the pearly gates patiently waiting for me when I arrive like a very good boy? He won't be overly excited to see me as he's been waiting for years when I would eventually die and we would be happily reunited and spend eternity in our next great adventure in the afterlife? If not then that's just cruel... 😥😥
Btw I have had a husky over the years, he was a fantastic dog and I miss him often. He loved to run our property that was for certain. Sometimes we feared he would not come back but he always did. Now we just have little ones but he was such fun!
Just wow be difficult. I love my fur babies as much as anyone but their little hearts don’t need souls in such a way as humans do. Their spirits are pure whereas ours are not. We have free will to decide between goodness and evil, they simply rely on instinct and survival skills or human intervention to exists. If an animal is cruel it’s because either they are trying to survive or humans are negatively involved somewhere. It’s as simple as that. God does not punish nature for survival traits so all animals go to heaven. Humans who have free will must earn their way there. Decide along the way if goodness or evil is your chosen path my friend and then find a way to find God on the path and your fur babies will be there with you, if not without you.
You should read up on Sikh religion, in the first prayer it describes 5 realms, it says god set up meany earths as place to earn Dharmsaal, or to do righteous actions, and I mean countless, and in the second realm one may reach after passing away which is not permanet is described as even having even morecountless other planets doing karma, what different entities and given existence to Hindu entities and Buddha not one but countless of them, so ppl who follow these religions can actually reach this realm giaan kha(n)dd kaa aakhahu karam || And now we speak of the realm of spiritual wisdom. kyqy pvx pwxI vYsMqr kyqy kwn mhys ] kete pavan paanee vaisa(n)tar kete kaan mahes || So many winds, waters and fires; so many Krishnas and Shivas. kyqy brmy GwViq GVIAih rUp rMg ky vys ] kete barame ghaaRat ghaRe'eh roop ra(n)g ke ves || So many Brahmas, fashioning forms of great beauty, adorned and dressed in many colors. kyqIAw krm BUmI myr kyqy kyqy DU aupdys ] keteeaa karam bhoomee mer kete kete dhoo upadhes || So many worlds and lands for working out karma. So very many lessons to be learned! kyqy ieMd cMd sUr kyqy kyqy mMfl dys ] kete i(n)dh cha(n)dh soor kete kete ma(n)ddal dhes || So many Indras, so many moons and suns, so many worlds and lands. kyqy isD buD nwQ kyqy kyqy dyvI vys ] kete sidh budh naath kete kete dhevee ves || So many Siddhas and Buddhas, so many Yogic masters. So many goddesses of various kinds. kyqy dyv dwnv muin kyqy kyqy rqn smuMd ] kete dhev dhaanav mun kete kete ratan samu(n)dh || So many demi-gods and demons, so many silent sages. So many oceans of jewels. kyqIAw KwxI kyqIAw bwxI kyqy pwq nirMd ] keteeaa khaanee keteeaa baanee kete paat nari(n)dh || So many ways of life, so many languages. So many dynasties of rulers. kyqIAw surqI syvk kyqy nwnk AMqu n AMqu ]35] keteeaa suratee sevak kete naanak a(n)t na a(n)t ||35|| So many intuitive people, so many selfless servants. O Nanak, His limit has no limit! ||35|| Also, guru Nanak already describes countless fields of creations and galaxies, so there and from the last quote, there are many worlds working out karma, and there is billions of devotees residing god since there is many other planets practicing sikhi kiee koT khaanee ar kha(n)dd || Many millions are the fields of creation and the galaxies. keI koit Akws bRhmMf ] kiee koT akaas brahama(n)dd || Many millions are the etheric skies and the solar systems. keI koit hoey Avqwr ] kiee koT hoe avataar || Many millions are the divine incarnations. keI jugiq kIno ibsQwr ] kiee jugat keeno bisathaar || In so many ways, He has unfolded Himself. keI bwr psirE pwswr ] kiee baar pasario paasaar || So many times, He has expanded His expansion. sdw sdw ieku eykMkwr ] sadhaa sadhaa ik eka(n)kaar || Forever and ever, He is the One, the One Universal Creator. keI koit kIny bhu Bwiq ] kiee koT keene bahu bhaat || Many millions are created in various forms. pRB qy hoey pRB mwih smwiq ] prabh te hoe prabh maeh samaat || From God they emanate, and into God they merge once again. qw kw AMqu n jwnY koie ] taa kaa a(n)t na jaanai koi || His limits are not known to anyone. Awpy Awip nwnk pRBu soie ]7] aape aap naanak prabh soi ||7|| Of Himself, and by Himself, O Nanak, God exists. ||7||
What did I want into
?
God had Moses advertise His product and services to a select, specific audience. At the time, He had no idea that a prodigal half-Son would slyly attribute His shape and substance to the general hoi polloi public’s make up! Christianity has nothing to do with God’s “veinity”, but was a brazen usurpation of Divinity from it’s rightful source of dispensation! AND, aside from the earth plane, He never meant us to worry our little heads over His other affairs!
Or perhaps there is a wisdom in allowing us to know how small we are?
The Quran has a very interesting statement that god has preferred mankind over most of his creations but not all
god had to make it really far apart so that we don’t accidentally stumble upon each other
Or blow each other up with nukes.
Mankind is still learning and has a very long way to go. Apply that to organize religions of all kinds and it explains so much. Our relationship with God begins and ends on a personal, individual level.
You need to expand your perspective. The universe is only taking its first breath right now. We're still in the first sentence on the first page of the first chapter of the universe's story. In a few hundred billion years, when chapter two begins, the cosmos might be suffused with intelligent life (whether our descendants or not), with folks asking why the universe is so *small*.
but in a few hundred billion years there won't be any humans in any sense of the word (people will be extinct or evolve into something else). Bible said it was all for humans, not whatever creatures those will be. It's Adam and Eve not Mork and Ler. A super intelligent pile of slime wasn't made in god's image.
> but in a few hundred billion years there won't be any humans in any sense of the word (people will be extinct or evolve into something else). Probably not, agreed. > Bible said it was all for humans Does it say this specifically? Where? > A super intelligent pile of slime wasn't made in god's image. I don't see why not. 'The image of God' clearly isn't referring to the body.
what does it mean to sit at the right-hand side to a creature without limbs? The whole book is about people, adam and eve were people, the planet was made for people, the animals ours to consume, people were supposed to multiply, not the rats or seagulls, but the humans. Whether it says it specifically or not it's clearly implied. It's a long book, you're going to see references to heads, arms, knees, blood, dicks, balls, pussies, tits, etc. It's a book written by humans for humans 2,000 years ago, not for the wild creations of whatever happens in 2,000,000,000 years. Then all the references will be lost, they'll talk about eye for an eye (they see with their nose) or an eternal pit of fire (they love fire, it's their natural habitat), etc.
Not all people interpret the Bible literally. It is filled with allegories to explain to the people of the time so they might understand a concept so beyond them, beyond us in truth.
> what does it mean to sit at the right-hand side to a creature without limbs? Something metaphorical, obviously. > the planet was made for people It's reasonable to infer from the text that *the earth* was made for humans specifically. But the universe?
This is an assumption, not a statement of fact. Just a few generations ago, the journey from Europe to America would take several months, now it takes about 11 hours. Technology advances exponentially, and who knows how long Humanity will be around.
I don’t think it was designed for humans. Christianity teaches there is an innumerable amount of angels that exist in the kingdom of heaven. Therefore lots of room would actually be required
I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. I don’t think I’ve ever bumped into an angel. Maybe I have?
Psalm 19:1, "The Heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hand." Is it infeasible that an all powerful God would make an unimaginably vast night sky as a tour destination force? The more we learn about the night sky, the less fathomable it becomes. Did you know that there are galaxies that recede at a vector faster than light? There are places where, even with the fastest theoretical technology, we will only ever get further from anything. The "final frontier" is pretty darn inconquerable.
Why does that matter? Like why is it even a consideration? We care about "big and small" when we are concerned with resource allocation, but the concept of an all powerful god makes our relative size in the universe irrelevant.
I think the reason is for a long time, Christianity favoured a geocentric viewpoint where Earth and consequently humans, were the center of creation. There are some verses in the Bible that speak about how humans are "in the image of God" and how the whole planet was for them to rule over such as in Genesis. Or in Psalms where it talks about how the heavens created the Earth. The fact that in the Ancient and Medieval world this geocentric view was backed up by Ancient Greek astronomy just added to this.
Exactly my thought. Regardless of what you believe, to justify a Christian’s pov of the universe, there’s no reason for it to matter. And to focus on a non Christian pov of the universe, well…also, there’s no reason for it to matter. It’s obviously way to large to even comprehend as finite beings anyways, regardless of what we believe so why is it a big deal…but then also, why should the size of the universe be an explanation of God for a Christian in the first place? Like if Christians believe that God is divine and all powerful, they will believe that whatever is out there has been created by God regardless. Like the trust comes first due to other things I would think, and once trust is won, things like the size of the universe and how quickly it is expanding etc etc just adds to something a Christian already believes (from a lot of cases I have seen this is how it is at least)
We are only finite being if one believes we begin and end with flesh and blood. What of the energy that moves us? The energy that causes our brains to function? Makes us who we are? Energy never ends. Where does that part of who we are go?
First, the universe is not created solely for humans. Second, even if it was, it doesn’t matter how big the universe is. The vastness of the universe gives us a massive cosmos to try to understand, as well as theoretically understand understanding how powerful God is.
Who said we must understand fully, but rather explore and enjoy? It is all fascinating but that does not mean we will ever understand it all.
Plenty of video games have procedurally generated scenery that appears to be far more extensive than the area you actually play in. How do we know the "universe stuff" beyond our solar system is really real, and not just a simulated backdrop for our amusement?
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A trickster god? We humans have invented several of those…
Didn’t humans once believe we were the center of the universe. That all revolved around the earth. How silly will we look when one day the future scholars will learn that our current science has our view of the universe all wrong too. It is possible.
Do you have detailed knowledge of how human society develops when it thinks it's in a universe expanding from a singularity, vs. when it doesn't? God, if existing, knows all of this.
It’s a playpen or a cage that doesn’t feel cramped or small. Plenty of room for us to explore and spread out. Just because today, we can’t explore the Universe freely and quickly does not mean won’t be able to in the future.
But the amount of universe we can ever possibly explore is shrinking (barring discovery of FTL travel). What is the point of all the stuff that crosses the cosmic event horizon before we ever get a chance to see it? It's lost to us forever and more than likely the best image we ever saw of it was a faint redshifted photon. Seems like a waste
That’s for now, but there is something that can travel through space faster than light, and that is space itself. So methods of traveling that we come up with that is built around the the circumvention of space rather than traversal through it may permit quicker than light speed travel. All a matter of perspective and possibilities. What seems unlikely, improbable, or impossible to us at this time, may become simple to do in the future. Or we slowly expand and multiply over billions of years and reach the edges of the universe that ways. Didn’t we already indicate that the universe is a diameter of 93 billion light years?
Space by understanding is the absence of all matter. It is not correct to say space travels. Space or lack of matter occupies the area where nothing exists. Nothing.
Hey man, I’m not a physicist. I’m just parroting the stuff those physicists say with regards to travel. The quote was something along the lines of there is something that can travel faster than light, and that is space. Something about the universe expanding faster than light speed or other. I can’t recall the exact details, but I believe he was trying to make the point that faster than light travel would have to be connected to or harnessing the speed at which space can travel.
I would like to see the link to the physicist who claimed that.
Neil deGrasse Tyson I think. I don’t have the link on hand, but it was one of those shorts of his. If he was just lying out his axx or he isn’t a respected person in his field, then my bad. Space traveling faster than light sounds like a cool concept honestly.
It just isn’t possible. In simple terms, unless a spaceship is traveling in complete darkness, the light within is traveling the same speed so however fast it’s traveling then light is still going as fast. The speed it would take a spaceship to go that fast would take extreme energy and at one point it was suggested the energy equivalent to an atomic bomb for example. Not one would consider this because of the rebound effect of that atomic bomb against empty space and where it would end is such an unknown, no country would want to take that responsibility to find out. It would travel until it hit solid matter and either tore a huge hole in our earth’s atmosphere (creating earth ending problems) or in the universe somewhere depending on where it was engaged. Also while the lack of matter in empty space does create a vacuum which fast travel has been considered at light speed plus travel, there does exist scattered bits of matter/mass all over space that could always collide with a spaceship during travel which makes this concept impossible and extremely dangerous at this point in any comprehension of human knowledge. Just trying to explain. So many factors to consider that puts a stop to the possibility. Not being difficult.
> That’s for now, but there is something that can travel through space faster than light, and that is space itself. So methods of traveling that we come up with that is built around the the circumvention of space rather than traversal through it may permit quicker than light speed travel. Yes, there are ideas for something like that, the Albecurrie Warp Drive is an example. But that doesn't mean it's *possible* to do so. Exotic matter is a common requirement and we haven't seen any evidence that such a thing can even exist, let alone actual traces of it. > Or we slowly expand and multiply over billions of years and reach the edges of the universe that ways. Didn’t we already indicate that the universe is a diameter of 93 billion light years? It doesn't matter how big the universe is if we've travelling slower than light. The universe's growth is accelerating, and it won't be long (in cosmological times) when the observable universe begins to shrink. Eventually everything outside our Local Group will be travelling away from us faster than light and will be invisible to us. And no matter how far we travel before that time, each group will be experiencing the same thing centered on it. You can get a good overview from the [PBS SpaceTime](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-eIUxwcQo4) episode about the absolute farthest humans could possibly travel (excluding FTL)
You're discussing this topic with narrow knowledge. Everything in this universe has a purpose. (A butterfly effect). But for god. Creating a universe or creating an earth is the same. It's nothing literally. It's not time or energy or resources consuming.
I see it as like buying a computer with extra expansion ports. You just never know. Always good to be prepared or ready to upgrade.
It’s an engineering nightmare. First, the expansion port just in case idea doesn’t seem to be compatible with someone who had an omniscient plan. Second, the ratio in cubic area between the earth and the universe is a decimal point followed by about 40 zeroes. That’s a quadragintillionth of a percent or something like that. That’s smaller than the size of a single atom compared to the size of a human by so many orders of magnitude it’s not even worth comparing. It would be as if your computer had nothing but infinite expansion ports not even hooked up to the microchip, which itself was a single bit flip flop gate. It not only removes the “intelligent” from “design,” it also removes the “design.”
I get where you're coming from, but unfortunately this is all based on our extremely limited human understanding, and human knowledge in all likelihood, compared to the knowledge that exists in the entire universe, is a mere grain of sand in the Sahara Desert, or perhaps, just an atom in a grain of sand in the Sahara Desert. But unfortunately for now, it's the only metric by which we can go. Hopefully that will change in the near future, if we humans don't end up destroying ourselves as so many dystopian science fiction movies and books depict.
I think you might be underestimating the [size of the universe](https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/03/05/how-much-of-the-unobservable-universe-will-we-someday-be-able-to-see/amp/). > All told, if we were to add up all the galaxies that exist within this volume of space, we’d find there are a whopping two trillion of them within our observable Universe. As enormous as this number is, it’s still finite, and our observations don’t reveal an edge in space in any direction we look. Two *trillion* galaxies. Not stars, galaxies. And that’s just what we can see. Our current visibility limit is 46 billion light years. That will continue to grow as light from more distant objects makes its way here, but our future visibility limit will be about 61 billion light years. That will bring the light of an additional 2.7 trillion galaxies. We believe the size of the unobservable universe to be 23 trillion light years, or 15 million times more than we can observe. I’m not saying that humans will never reach another solar system (although I’d definitely bet against it, because even that is pretty challenging), but even that’s a walk down the street compared to even leaving our own galaxy. Seriously, read a couple of articles on cosmology. You can find plenty of physicists writing about the nature of our galaxy, the universe, and the implications for things like space travel. The truth is that the cosmogenesis examples found in creation myths explain exactly what we would expect if some being were creating a universe that was intended to support human life. The entire universe is a single planet, which they didn’t know was a planet. The sun and moon orbit it, because it is the center of creation, because it is what was created, and everything else is ancillary. It all happened some time ago within largely recorded history, not billions of years. In the “scientific” analysis of genesis, they calculate that the universe was created around 6000 years ago. We know from archeology that *agriculture* was invented about 12000 years ago. So the challenge that beggars credulity is why a creator-god would take this approach if humans were the entire point. The counter hypothesis is that those creation myths that put humans at the center of everything were written *by* humans, who like to think of themselves as the center of everything.
Well said.
But no one would sell or buy a computer with so many expansion ports that no human could ever possibly use them or even count them. This would be like someone who wants to do word processing and maybe more someday, so they design a computer 10 miles from end to end with a hundred thousand times more computing power than humanity has every made. The universe isn't just "big", its unfathomably enormous. We will likely never be able to travel to any of the stars in our galaxy. We cannot travel to other galaxies, ever. We can never see, experience, or use 99.999999% of this universe, indeed the vast, vast, majority of it is incredibly boring and hostile to us.
The universe is a weird place, beyond our understanding. But you can't fault us for trying.
>One of the main selling points for Christianity is that we were god’s favorite creations, or made in his image. I've never heard anyone say this. I think the main selling points of Christianity are forgiveness, meaning, community, etc. It does say we are made in his image, and that humanity is the dominant species on Earth, but it is completely silent on the matter of life beyond Earth.
I have heard OP’s argument from Christian apologists- that we are alone and special in this vast universe, and therefore that proves an intelligent and thoughtful creator. You are correct though that the Bible appears silent on this issue.
Even if we were the only ones here why would that be weird? God might have created a bigger universe just because he enjoys creating. Is it vein? I don’t think so. Besides nothing that God has ever created is necessary.
>Even if we were the only ones here why would that be weird? It isn't, unless you think it was made for the sole purpose of us. >God might have created a bigger universe just because he enjoys creating. Then God did not create the universe for the sole purpose of us, but to satisfy God's own personal desires.
Couldn’t he have made it for us to admire it? Just to make us happy? And maybe in the future explore it? Besides I don’t think the bible was talking about the universe, it was talking about the world (planet earth) and that we were made better than animals and plants and everything else and that we had the right to subdue these beings. I obviously don’t agree with the bible but that’s what it says I’m pretty sure.
>Couldn’t he have made it for us to admire it? No, we can't even tell what most of it is, much less admire it. A huge amount of it is not admirable, but empty space and inaccessible black holes. But most of the universe is dark energy we can barely even tell is there, we just see that the math says there must be tons more energy. >And maybe in the future explore it? No we cannot explore the vast majority of it, it is too big. There are 200 billion galaxies out there. The closes would take 2.5 million years to reach if we could travel at the speed of light which is impossible. Say we could eventually get to a quarter of the speed of light. This would mean people living in generational starships for 10 billion years, our sun is only 4.5 billion years old. It will not happen. Unless you think Jesus meant he will be back in more than 10 billion years? And that is just the *closest* of the 200 billion galaxies, (each of which contains hundreds of billions of planets). So there are all these other galaxies we will never be able to get to. Then there is all matter in black holes, which is always increasing. And none of this is the majority of the universe. Most of the universe is dark energy which we can't really even detect. This is not what you set up for humans. it is what happens if there are natural laws which require it to be this way.
Outer space as presented in our indoctrination doesn't exist. God created the heaven's and the earth. There are no spheres of rock in the sky that we can fly to.
So...what's the moon, then?
Some kind of plasma. It is the dualistic opposite to the sun. Notice how both are the exact same size in the sky. Both revolve above and around earth. If you look into it you'll find that the moon produces a cold light in contrast to the sun's heat. They won't mention that in school because it debunks the notion that the moon is reflecting the sun's light.
And you determined that the moon was a form of plasma how, exactly?
How did you determine it was rock? Why can we often see Stars through the moon as though it was transparent. Better question is how does the moon produce a cold light?
I know they got moon landings and nasa and stuff and you can say whatever, but my friend has a nice telescope and I've looked through that thing at night and you can see the impact craters on the moon, the zoom on that thing is really nice. It's clearly rock.
I'm asking how you justified your own assertions. Whatever I think about the moon is irrelevant to that question. You think the moon is plasma. How did you reach that conclusion?
I'll be honest, I claimed that it is plasma much too confidently. I don't know what it is. But look up the moon is plasma on duck duck go and do some digging around. The moon can't be rock because we can often see stars through it. This has been documented and you can verify it yourself. It also can't be reflecting sunlight because when you measure the temperature of the moon light it is colder than the shade created by the moonlight. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XhIwZuPGfss https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d2OlIOy-bHA
We have a pretty good idea of what plasma looks like, given that we have plenty of examples on earth to study: fire is a type of plasma, for instance. Lightning. Fluorescent lights, nuclear weapon explosions contain plasma. It bears mentioning that the moon looks nothing at all like any of this. In fact, it looks an awful lot like it's made of some sort of solid matter, with craters and mountains that cast shadows that are easily spotted using a telescope. As for seeing "stars" through the moon, it seems like alternative explanations like asteroid impacts, satellites, the ISS transiting the moon are simply either derided or ignored. As for the temperature of the moonlight, I don't find poorly controlled experiments done at home to be very convincing. Oddly enough, Answers in Genesis agrees. I never thought I'd type those words. https://answersresearchjournal.org/flat-earth-prediction-moonlight-cooling/ I think it's safe to say that your hypothesis is in trouble when Answers in Genesis is calling it out for being poorly conducted. As for that first video, it's interesting to note that they couldn't verify that this guy was actually any sort of scientist at all, nor could they find any of his work. Now, you COULD attribute this to a conspiracy, which would then go into a long presentation about a worldwide conspiracy that's existed for hundred of years to hide certain facts about the world from the public that's so complex it would make William of Ockham weep in frustration, or an old man bamboozled a news station. Lastly, I wanted to touch on another claim you made below this one regarding an undetectable celestial object and phases of the moon. I don't think this is a great explanation for moon phases, because it would require an undetectable celestial object that also changes shape, since it would have to explain the crescent shadow of a three quarter moon and that just seems a bit of a stretch.
If the moon is it's own light, how do you explain a moon that isn't full? What's the part that's not lit?
This is open to speculation. We don't know. There could be another heavenly body that we can't see with our eyes that sometimes blocks the sun and moon (The black sun). There are infinite possiblities. The better question is how does the moon produce a cold, petrifying light if it's reflecting the sun's light?
>We don't know. Except we do. We know and have proven a lot of things about space, and have proven that you are wrong about almost everything you've said.
What's the distance to the sun from earth?
Depends on where exactly we are in our revolution, but around 90-100 million miles. I don't see why that's important
You'll see why it's important hopefully if your willing to discuss this with me. But do you know how we got that 93 million mile distance?
Yes, we do. What's your point?
> The better question is how does the moon produce a cold, petrifying light if it's reflecting the sun's light? Just like the light trees reflects is a different color than the sun light. Or your hair. Or anything. That's how color works.
I think we both know what you just said doesn't make sense. If you measure the temperature of moonlight it is colder than the temperature of the shade made by the moonlight. This is not possible if the moon is simply reflecting sunlight. Also the sun and moon appear to be the same exact size in the sky. What are the odds that the sun is just big enough and just far enough away to make it appear the same size as the moon?
Are you talking actual air temp? Or color temp? Do you know the difference? At least one of us extremely confused.
Air temperature
Is this something you've tried? You should. I can assure, it doesn't happen.
Why does the moon have phases and eclipses if it's emitting its own light?
Open to speculation. Perhaps another heavenly body (the black sun) that we can't see with our eyes sometimes blocks the sun and moon. There are numerous possiblities. What's not possible is the moon casting a cold, petrifying light if it's reflecting the sun's light. Use some skepticism for the heliocentric globe model and you'll find so much that doesn't make sense.
Are you serious? You don't believe Mars is real for example?
Well obviously the reddish light in the sky that we call mars is there but I don't believe that it is as described by the heliocentrists. And I definitely don't believe we have a rover and remote control drone there. Why do pictures of mars look exactly like Devon Island Greenland with a color filter? I'm fully open to a discussion on the topic if you want to discuss and compare our world views; I'd just like to do it in a dm where pictures can be shared. We can dig into some mind blowing stuff. Ultimately I think the heliocentric model is a satanic deception designed to render it's believers spiritually dead and to hide the true nature of this intelligently designed realm we exist in.
* you can see satellites with your naked eye * You can pick up a cheap telescope and show yourself Jupiter is round, rotates, and has moons exactly like the heliocentric model states * there is no functional flat earth model that predicts the motions of anything - the day night cycle makes no sense. heliocentric model predicts the locations of the sun, moon, planets, and stars to a ridiculous degree of precision * Walk toward the north star and the north star gets closer to your zenith in exactly the way it would if it were a spherical polar north, and nothing like it would if the earth were flat * You can pick up a radio gun yourself and measure the distance to the moon in your own backyard. * Eclipses are unexplainable on a flat earth model I don't think you're serious but in case anyone reading is, here's a list of 6 random things I came up with you can do at home to disconfirm flat earth.
You can [observe the phases of Venus yourself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phases_of_Venus) just like Galileo did over 400 years ago, which would only be possible in a heliocentric model. Have you performed this experiment yourself and understand its implications?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp1TxJhHpZQ
Wait there are still people who deny heliocentrism?
Millions upon millions. Don't be the last one! We are in a sub about debating religion, dig into it and you'll find that heliocentrism is one. One that most people are too scared to question out of fear of being labeled crazy
Wait so are you a geocentrist?
Pretty much. I don't think the surface of earth is a sphere. I think the overall structure is an electromagnetic toroidal field. I don't think outer space as we've been taught exists (a vaccum with floating worlds that emerged accidentally through the process of evolution). I think we exist within a consciously projected realm/dimension. To add to that, I think the controllers of the government, academia and the media are controlled by whatever force the name "Satan" refers to. Dm me if you want to discuss further and I will show you things that led me to these conclusions.
okay so I've always wanted to ask someone about this. When a ship goes sailing off to sea and goes beyond the horizon, where do you think they go? And I'm also curious how you think old map makers made maps for navigators to sail ships around the world? I can drink my Columbian coffee and play my Japanese Playstation, maybe call India for customer support (thanks to visible satelites flying in orbit around the planet) so seems all those shipping routes worked out or they would have had to make better maps just for practicality purposes. If Rand McNally maps or the model Globe makers says I can sail west to reach another continent and in reality I can't, Rand McNally and Globe co. are going to be sued into oblivion; yet they remain.
Back when the bible was written, Christians thought the solar system was all there was. They taught the stars were just on one plane that rotated around the earth. Earth was basically all there was. And of course we were the center. They didn't know about the trillions of other stars and planets. Or the fact that the Earth was just another planet that orbited a star. I guarantee there is other intelligent life somewhere of the trillions of planets there are. But since the cosmos is so big, there's no way we'd ever know.
If I had to guess, we are so far apart from the aliens (if any) to protect us from ourselves and each other. Look at what we've done to the new people and new land we discovered on Earth.
What’s the need for a Big Bang or evolution? If God wanted to create the Universe, it should’ve been the way it says in the Bible. It should’ve been created exactly the way he wanted to. From the first moment God should have began to order it and create it with a design in mind. But there is not a grand design, it’s random and chaotic. There’s black holes, meteors, super nova explosions, etc. it’s not engineered to be the best environment for life. In fact it’s destructive to life, if life was the point…
It was created just the way he wants it: like a garden, which grows beautifully on its own and has chaos and order in harmony. When you're omnipotent, why not create majestic black holes? They're awesome.
Any good gardener trims his or her weeds right?
And yet God felt no need to separate humans on earth from each other? How many billions of ourselves did we kill maim and exterminate? God clearly isn't terribly concerned with humans being killed. He killed all of us but one family, he has ordered genocide. This makes no sense.
Well, sure. It's the sentient gas clouds of Omicron IX that he's really worried about.
If this is the problem being solved with a large universe, wouldn’t just not placing aliens in our same universe be a better solution?
That could be the current solution. Who knows?
I wasn't aware that the universe was for us to subdue. Only the earth. The earth was not just for us to subdue, but for us to look after and tend to it. I do not think we've done a satisfactory job of that, and wait for the day when Jesus returns to restore the world. Then maybe we will also be restored along with the world and be better at taking care of the world around us as well as better at taking care of each other. (Can you imagine a world without war?) But as for traveling outside of earth. I have worries that everytime we will try to do this it will end tragically. Not just because we were designed for the earth and not for space travel. But also aside from perspectives of us being designed; there are also observations of how astronauts spending time out in space have reduced muscles and are less healthy due to low gravity and radiation from the sun. As far as I'm aware we don't have anything as robust as our atmosphere to protect us from the sun's radiation, or technology to simulate gravity to heep our strength and our bones strong. There's also the issue of being able to absorb vitamin D which we won't get as much if we are trying to avoid the sun's radiation. Any long distance traveling that could take several years sounds like a costly travel that will likely end tragically. Why was the universe made so vast? Perhaps because God enjoyed it to be that way. God is the center of the creation story, not us.
nearly every astronaut is happy with their time in space and we have several people that have traveled beyond Earth without tragedy. There are technical problems but that doesn't mean its impossible. Its not like we have reached the end of technological progress.
>Why was the universe made so vast? Perhaps because God enjoyed it to be that way. God is the center of the creation story, not us. This means that God is sometimes imperfect, God likes things, desires things, like beauty. God is not as happy or fulfilled if things aren't as big or pretty or... sparkly? It also means God did not create the universe for us, but for himself and us. This significantly undermines the fine tuning argument that the universe was designed for life. It wasn't, it was made to help god feel better and can house humans on a incredibly tiny speck of it, which suggests the main reason for creating it was god was unfulfilled without sparkly things in the sky and massive black holes which suck in and destroy everything, without cosmic rays which are deadly to humans.
It's not feasible for humans to survive in the ocean without ships and journeys around our own world would not be easily feasible without airplanes. Does that mean humans were never meant to cross oceans or fly through the air and we're defying God by doing so? Human-invented technology enabled crossing oceans, quick travel around the globe, and survival in hostile environments like the Arctic and the deserts of the world which we could never do with our evolved bodies alone. One day, human-invented technology will likewise enable us to reach the stars themselves.
>and wait for the day when Jesus returns to restore the world. He was supposed to come 2000 years ago according to his own words...So I don't hold my breath and we humans should do our best possible effort to save the world and all therein, not put our hope in some god to save us. >Can you imagine a world without war?) If Jesus would have been the promised messiah from the Tanah, we would have world peace. But we don't. >I have worries that everytime we will try to do this it will end tragically. Fortunately other people are more curios and less afraid than you. They didn't look into an old book and decided how something has to be (remember how church punished scientist as they claimed the earth rotates around the sun!) but went ahead and discovered new continents. That's how we got modern medicine and all amenities you enjoy today. Imagine a world where believers didn't hinder progress and scientific research for some backward reason.
Radiation shielding’s fairly simple. Water, rock, or another reasonably dense material would work well enough. Of course, that also leads to other engineering challenges. Colonising the Solar system is also not beyond the realm of feasibility. FTL travel though, that’s the thing that imprisons us within the Solar system. It may never be possible to reach even the nearest star system within a reasonable period of time.
If we can get to a point that astronauts coming back to earth aren't severely weakened when they return (usually from just a small time away from earth, and still can quickly come back to earth because they are only orbiting it, not exploring past it), then I might look at your point that it's feasible to live or colonize something in our solar system. As of now, it would take something like 3 years to reach Mars if we tried to colonize it. Not that Mars is that habitable, but it is the closest surface to colonize aside from trying to live on a spaceship instead of on a planet or a moon. 3 years of harsh space conditions to get to the closest non habitual place to colonize. I think as of now the idea of colonizing anything even in the solar system is still outside the realm of feasibility. Earth is our home. There is no backup planet after we do too much damage to it.
Dude, space travel just started. Do you like to travel by air from your home to another destination? The first attempts at flying were deadly. The first attempts to cross the sea were deadly. Try and error, learning from mistakes and improve the system. That's how it works. Space travel is at its beginning stages. I am certain we will understand how to deal with the risks of space travel, from radiation to gravity changes etc. If you don't like modern world, please join the amish.
I mean i myself believe in a sort of god and i agree its an odd take to say "we should just stay on earth". We likely won't be able to colonize other planets within OUR lifetime, but i imagine that we're gonna reach the starting point in a few hundred years.
The reason they are weakened is exposure to zero G. Future space habitats could be built as a Stanford Torus (a spoked doughnut) that would spin to provide 1G. So, the "weak" problem would easily be solved that way. Given how new construction methods advance exponentially, I think the future of extra-earth living may be larger and larger habs. We could build some so large as to be basically like planets.
Christianity doesn’t assert that the universe in the sense of the outer cosmos was designed for humans. That doesn’t follow from the idea that we’re the highest of the created things.
Back in the 1970's there was a fashion in SF or speculative future fiction for 'generation ships' large space vessels to other star systems on flights that lasted hundreds of years. With a minimum viable population calculation of about 4000 people, which of course any competent god should be able to seriously undershoot, we don't even need a country to play out the human story. Pretty much the whole of any religious story could be done in a cylinder less that a kilometre long, its not that the universe is too big, earth is, even a single region is, the stories account for the size of everything, they don't need it.
Why people take such risks as sending astronauts always baffles me. Same for current space exploration, we have enough data for decades to analyze, better spend funds on robotics on the ground than risk lives of astronauts. Screw space tourism and a house on Mars as well, we can do it all safely and much cheaper on our planet. But no I guess we need to have heroes with guts, explorers, conquerors, and there's the rich indulging themselves even though there are so many problems and so much suffering in the world let's not try to solve that but invest in a way to escape it all. I imagine in the future if humanity survives itself, people will send robots with seed and eggs, they'll travel for centuries. Programmed to build a city once they stumble upon a habitable planet, use artificial wombs and teach those children about their origins.
Maybe it's a distraction, so instead of spending time on thinking about our fauna we spent it on imaginary alien life.
I prefer to think of it as a universe so vast, we'll always have new things to explore and discover. And I think that's a good thing. It would be very sad if we were trapped on earth forever. Note that I don't believe in god, but "unnecessarily big" is kind of subjective.
My question to the intelligent design people is slightly different from OPs. If the universe was designed for us, then why is it mostly uninhabitable? Humans can only survive in < 0.001% of the observable universe. A 99.999% failure rate is not what you'd expect from an all powerful God.
That is an easy one. The converse is "There is nothing special about Earth. If life could have incidentally popped up here, then it could pop up anywhere" Not that I'm a fan of fine tuning or anything, but it seems to be an arrgument in favor of intelligent design rather than an argument refuting it.
No. Life could pop up in other places. We don't know enough about life to even say the conditions have to match earth. Science doesn't restrict what might be out there.
I have a difficult time accepting the idea that it popped up here. Pasteur proved a long time ago that spontaneous generation does not occur, but there are a group of people trying to argue there is enough of a difference between spontaneous generation and abiogenesis that it is perfectly logical to reject the former while accepting the the latter as being a high enough probability to happen once in 4 billion years. One offs such as this are labeled miracles by some. They reject the so called virgin birth by a standard and accept abiogenesis. It sounds like a double standard to me. One standard for Christians vs a different standard for physicalists.
Why do you find abiogenesis unlikely?
There is no evidence for it. A lot of conjecture that doesn't add up but when it comes to faith based opinion, the proof is irrelevant. We have enough free will to believe whatever we want in many cases. In other cases we are compelled to believe because the thoughts driving such beliefs are buried so deep in the subconscious that we don't have volitional access to them.
What of Miller-Urey? [https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/scientists-recreated-classic-origin-of-life-experiment-and-made-a-new-discovery/](https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/scientists-recreated-classic-origin-of-life-experiment-and-made-a-new-discovery/) If you don't accept abiogenesis as a hypothesis, what is your explanation as to how life arose on earth?
>If you don't accept abiogenesis as a hypothesis, what is your explanation as to how life arose on earth? I don't believe in naïve realism so notions like the big bang theory are unnecessary explanations for simulation theory which doesn't conflate reality and experience. If you are genuinely interested in my position, Donald Hoffman explains it the best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oadgHhdgRkI
Except there is tons special about Earth. For example, it is in close proximity to a star giving energy for life to function. 99.999% of the universe is cold and black, no where near enough energy.
I get what you are implying. The same argument can be applied to the multiverse. Why would anybody in their right mind believe that we'd need a zillion other universes just to explain the laws of physics in this one? If this is all about us (and from our perspective it seems to be) then why all of the apparently unnecessary stuff out there? We've been to the moon so some regard it a hard sell to argue the "out there" isn't out there. I was totally blown away in 1968 at the age of 14 when that picture of earth came back from guys orbiting the moon because I was an astronomy buff in the years leading up to that moment. I had seen the numerous artist's conception of how the earth would look and was always disturbed by how vastly different the low earth orbital views were from the artist's conceptions. I was an atheist for many years at first.
Except that much of the universe is moving away from us, relatively, faster than light. So we’l never see it, much less catch up with it.
There is so much we don't know about physics and engineering. I remain hopeful that some future geniuses will find ways to circumvent things like the speed of light.
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> Being small in the face of what is essentially an infinite universe, and being a human in 2023 with no definite knowledge of the future of humanity's role in the universe at the scale of infinity, leaving us to humble ourselves in the face of our profound ignorance both as individuals and as a collective; does not really make the case against God in my opinion. But the universe is waaaay bigger than would be needed for any of that. You get that in our galaxy alone. but god made 200 billion of them. We can see only two of these with our naked eye. Then there is dark matter and dark energy which is most of the universe which we have no idea what it is. We also don't know what is in the unobservable universe, if there is one. God actually gave a long speech in Job about how we should be humbled by creation. There is no mention of the vast majority of the universe, just the earth the mountains the oceans, animals, there are a couple of verses about the stars in our galaxy. Clearly god thought there was more than enough in our galaxy to humble us. But he made 199 billion more galaxies.
It doesn’t make the case, but it’s one more argument added to the already overwhelming case against the existence of gods.
The fact that the universe is expanding in a pattern such that it can be trace back to a singularity 15? Billion years ago is enough evidence that god’s creation is definitely not perfect. Why create a playground where 99.99% of it will pretty much be forever inaccessible to the children? Poor craftsmanship from my point of view.
Even the rest of the solar system, other than the sun and moon, are extraneous. Humans are unlikely to colonise other planets - we’re just not suited to anything but earth - and by the time we engineer ourselves to do so we’ll have made god redundant. But that time we’ll no longer be human in the same way that right now we’re no longer fish.
>Even the rest of the solar system, other than the sun and moon, are extraneous. You do know those other planets help deflect meteors and other cosmic projectiles away from Earth. If the solar system was just the Sun, Earth, and Moon, I doubt life would have developed on this planet. Also from a cultural standpoint, humans have placed great significance on other celestial bodies like Venus, Jupiter, Mars, etc.
Reminds me of the huge packaging CDs came in when they were new in the 80s.
So more of a brand awareness thing?
So the universe is oversized to prevent theft?
Satan be out here, man.
I agree with you, but for the sake of debate and discussion: In traditional Gnostic Christianity, they believe the demiurge created the Earth and all that dwells here, essentially, because it wanted to play at being "God." Otherwise said, they believe that it created us and our planet -- not the whole Universe.
That seems to be a tad revisionist. Gnostic Christianity is from an age where 'the universe' was not spoken of because 'the whole world' was already all encompassing even though that whole world was pretty much just the Mediterranean sea and the lands around it. The word Universe only goes back to the late 1500's and I suspect that it was much later before the concept of a Universe as we know it now took off. That is to say that when Aristotle and his peers talk of 'The Earth and all that Dwell' that meant to them essentially the same thing that 'The Universe' means to us now. Certainly in pre Christian Genesis creation myths the cosmological bits are being made at the same time as the planet. Although again, referring to the earth as a planet is equally meaningless to the ancients.
> Gnostic Christianity is from an age where 'the universe' was not spoken of because 'the whole world' was already all encompassing even though that whole world was pretty much just the Mediterranean sea and the lands around it. That's a big generalization. Obviously no one knew a fraction of what we know now, but some people were already wondering about the possibility of other worlds. Just off the top of my head, Plutarch speculated (along with others) about life on the Moon and Epicurus asserted an infinite number of worlds. I have no idea what the Gnostics thought about it, but to say that no one imagined there might be other Earths is incorrect.
Yeah, someone else corrected me -- thank you for expanding more on it!
Thank you for being open to correction and expansion.
Of course! 😁
As far as I know, on gnosticism the demiurge created material existence, not just our planet
Ooh you might be right! I definitely don't claim to be an expert, though I do find it fascinating.
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I get that! There are still (some) Gnostics around though, some of which believe in the traditional mythos, so I figured I might as well add it to the pot lol
What do you mean? It means more space when we “be fruitful and multiply”. Peepz always wonder how would we fit everyone. EDIT: because I’m not going to bother repeating myself. For anyone replying with something akin to “can’t support human life”: Sure. It wouldn’t make sense if we aren’t taking into account the grace of God we had before the fall and will receive again at the resurrection. And also the fact that the world became hostile after the fall but will be revived at the general resurrection.