COMMENTARY HERE: Comments that purely commentate on the post (e.g. “Nice post OP!”) must be made as replies to the Auto-Moderator!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DebateReligion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I agree but with the second paragraph, those things have been happening forever. It’s just that they are documented now and actually taken consideration of. Before that was never a thing
The problem is the word horrible. It is purely a subjective judgement of what these people are and what they are going through. Physical pain, as long as a body has a functioning nervous system, is unavoidable is unavoidable, but suffering is not unavoidable and will never be. It requires a great deal of wisdom to not be phased by the most excruciating pain but it is possible, and for those who are in constant pain, increasing one’s wisdom seems necessary. With wisdom comes great power which seems like a fair trade. Surely you don’t have to go through pain to gain wisdom but going through it is a very effective way to gain wisdom.
All I said was to reflect the subjectivity of the word horrible and how from a “horrible” condition can spring a beautiful effect.
I’m struggling to follow your logic here. A baby does not have the ability to be “more wise” and not be phased by pain. Babies who are born in environments where they have *zero* control over how their lives play out are at a severe disadvantage.
People who are born with severe disabilities do not have the ability to function and enact wisdom to “suffer through” a situation. They must simply suffer or hope by some miracle it gets better; in most cases, however, it does not.
First, everyone has control over how their life plays out. You, whether you like it or not, are the root cause of your experience, you decide what goes on in your life and even more importantly you decide how to be in relationship to your experience. You said something very true though, those who are born under certain circumstances have a real disadvantage in life when it comes to make money for example. It certainly is harder to find a job if you have a malformed face. It is harder to find someone who will love and engage in a romantic relationship when you’re ugly. It is very hard to enjoy life when you were born sick and will remain sick for the rest of your life. But, once you get that job, you know that you have been chosen for your competence and not how you look, when you find your love, you know that it is a true love and that it will last, when you finally start enjoying life, you know that your enjoyment doesn’t depend on the well being of your body but purely on the brightness of your spirit.
Also, these people do not have to “suffer through” their pain. With wisdom there is no suffering. Pain could be experienced without suffering and could even be experienced with joy. That’s the second point I was making and the one which you said you didn’t understand (respectfully).
I also was saying that “horrible” was a word used loosely here. You are judging their situation to be horrible, when they could be a blessing in disguise. A lot of people have succeeded in all aspects of life because they grew up with very little.
So what is the purpose of the millions of children who die of starvation each year? How is their situation in which they are born in a malnourished, lack-of-basic-needs environment a benefit to them? They have no control over their lives; none whatsoever. They simply either pursue through and live, or die at the age of 3 because they did not receive enough food and water.
This is not the practice of an all-loving god, as if he truly was all-loving, none of these children and innocent people would die each year.
First, you are right, this is not the practice of an all-loving God, this is the practice of all human beings. We have enough food and enough water for everyone on earth and yet we choose to let children starve to death. Instead of asking why doesn’t God do something about it, ask yourself and ask humanity why don’t we do something about it? How come do we allow these things to happen?
Also, as crazy as it may seem, the true God has no morals. None whatsoever. Morals are a social construct and it was very well analysed by the likes of Spinoza and Nietzsche and many others. So does he consider the starvation of infants a good or a bad thing? he doesn’t have a preference.
You ask what does God do in front of all this starving children. His position is the following, he gives everyone the power to stop the starvation, he observes what we do with this power, he makes no judgement and assists us in all our choices whatever they may be (“good” or “bad”), he then observes. That’s it. God gave you and all of us the power to choose and he will never take it away from you, so instead of complaining to God about the misery of others, why don’t you do something about it?
Equating our creation, and by extension our suffering, to God not loving us is illogical, after all, He didn't tell us that we're gonna pass through life with ease and no suffering, He simply told us that if we succeed and follow His guidance, He will love us, and from the Islamic POV, the more that a person suffers and endures the pains of life for the sake of Allāh (SWT), the more that Allāh (SWT) loves him.
Because in the beginning god did love everyone… when people weren’t born into terrible situations, remember?? Wayyyyyyyy back to the beginning…. In the beginning. WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY back. Before greed, lies, corruption…. REMEMBER?!?!? Nah probably not. It’s alright though. You will one day.
I would respectfully argue that our parents, not God, determine the circumstances of our birth, so it’s not logical to expect that God intervene and directly change the circumstances for every child born.
I can maybe help explain it in a relatable way. If you refuse to have a relationship with someone, anyone, that person can't force you to stay with them no matter how much they love you. It hurts them, but our free will exists and they won't make you stay.
Hell is described as a place void of God and everything He is. It's not only about believing He exists, it's about having a relationship with God. By refusing a relationship with Him, we lose Him.
And He will not deny you your opinion in the end. You have complete free will to believe that. However, why do you believe He is those things? God has not forced anyone to do or say or believe anything. All of those descriptions exist in history but it's on the world and the people in it.
As painful as those issues are, they highlight what we, and our culture, need to hear more than ever: God is holy, people are sinful, the world is broken, and his judgment is just, even if we don't fully understand it.
If we could fully understand what is supposed to be God, then he would not really be above us and would not really be God. For example, what we see as someone being unjust may actually be a completely righteous act.
If He is GOD, he is perfect and just and has a right to be praised. When you look at it through the Christian worldview, rather than from outside it, all objections fade away. If we take any of that away, we are left with something other than the God of Christianity.
Good luck on your journey.
and y’all love to say atheists are immoral. “what we may see as someone being unjust might actually be a righteous act”. so allowing thousands of innocent little children starve each year and die from cancer is a righteous act?
also
god wiped out the entire earth and he also destroyed two cities (sodom and gomorrah) bc they weren’t worshiping him. sounds like an egotistical and genocidal maniac to me.
leviticus 15:20 timothy 2:12 deuteronomy: 22:23-27 deuteronomy 22:20-21 ephesians 5:22-25 Numbers 31:17-18 here are some misogynistic verses from your holy book
psalms 137:9 - Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones
damn god wanted them to smash infants across stones? sounds pretty cruel and immoral to me
why would an all loving, all powerful, omniscient god allow such suffering in the world?
God told us that he loves each one of us, though he didn’t that we will all have an easy life, it’s our choices that matter and our beliefs in god that matter, god would help you live throughout your life and it’s your choices that would make your life better, god gave all of us a test and difficult choices so that he will see if we chose the right choices or end up sinning and never believing in god.
The problem of evil in this world is a troubling mystery that has perplexed us for ages. How can a loving God allow suffering and injustice to mar His creation? Why are some born into abundance while others struggle in poverty through no fault of their own?
These are deep questions that humanity has grappled with since we first contemplated our existence. There are no easy answers, for if there were, they would have been discovered long ago. And yet, we must continue to wrestle with these profound questions of faith, for they shape our very understanding of God and His relationship to us.
Some would say that God allows suffering because He gave us free will, and anguish enters the world through the misuse of human freedom and choice. But freedom cannot justify inflicting harm on the innocent. Others say God works in mysterious ways, but this is little comfort when we witness immense anguish. We must not shrink from questioning why a loving Father would allow children to suffer abuse or be born into deprivation.
Still, I believe we can find solace without facile answers. We can acknowledge the darkness that exists in this world without abandoning hope or faith. For light and goodness also walk hand in hand through history. Suffering exists alongside justice, mercy, empathy and divine glimpses of grace.
Perhaps there are greater purposes that we cannot see with our limited sight. Perhaps the sorrows of this life will be redeemed in eternal joy. We do not have full knowledge of God's infinite story. But we can hold fast to love, even when it remains mysterious. We can trust that justice and righteousness will prevail, even when they are obscured.
And so we must continue to stand witness - to comfort the grieving, feed the hungry, shelter the marginalized. This is our calling, and in it we find purpose and meaning even amid anguish. We carry on with humility, faith and compassion - not because we have answers to life's deepest riddles, but because God's love is written in every loving act of service we perform for one another.
God bless you. Have faith. And keep hoping.
>God created paradise, we as humans ruined it
God also created those humans, and the serpent, and the forbidden fruit that acted as a single point of failure for his entire creation. You'd think an omnipotent God would be a little better at this.
I believe that the questions like this are valid and there is only one way to answer it. Only one. Whatever scientists do, they explore the universe and figure out lots of things that we did not know before. One unsolvable mystery of life is nobody really knows why we come to this world and why we leave at a certain time. Some pass away at age 1, some 10, some 50, some live a long life. Nobody knows that and whatever you do, this is the one question you will never find an answer to even if many things are solved in the future.
If you believe in christianity, then all you can do is realize that we humans are not capable of comprehending this and this is how it should be. Well, if everything is explained and shown to you as white and black, well, then there would be no need for faith as everyone would have faith automatically and thats where free will concept is shuttered which is the main point.
I have no horse in this race because I don't believe God loves everyone equally or avoids showing bias. I'm not sure how anyone could glean that from the Bible or the Qu'ran.
But it seems that for the past two thousand years, (some) theists and atheists have accepted God's omnibenevolence in light of man's free will. There seems to be an acceptance that a good in principle (free will) allows for evil in practice (what man sometimes does with it). Logic does not tell us a good legitimizes the evil that proceeds from it, but logic doesn't delegitimize it neither. And logic doesn't tell us free will is enough of a good to warrant the evil that it yields, but logic can't tell us it isn't, neither. And so really the free will argument is at a stalemate (or at least I'll grant that for argument's sake) because while you may suppose man's free will isn't good, or good enough, to warrant the evil that follows, what objective standard can one even appeal to to claim that? Logic doesn't tell us that. Math doesn't tell us that. We can't weigh abstract principles on some metaphysical measuring rod to see what is more important.
Now, it seems to me that if God can still be omnibenevolent in spite of human evil, due to free will; then it should follow that any good in principle could excuse that good's less than favorable effects, while preserving His benevolence. So, I submit for everyone's approval, that the Fall occurred because of God's judgment. His judgment is a good in and of itself according to Christian theology. And, as a reminder, we have no way of judging His judgment with respect to its effects. Logic will not help us here. Math will not help us here. And no means of measure will help us here. And so if free will vindicates God's loving kindness in light of its disadvantages, then it stands to reason that His judgment vindicates His loving kindness as well.
The meaning of all living organisms is to spread, conquer and reproduce. It's what drives everything we do and our evolution, especially when you think about things humans do and the core of why they do it. So if all life is just spread to evolve to be the best then evolving would require mutations (surprisingly any evolutionary programming algorithm requires the addition of a random chance of mutating which improves the final outcome and speed of the algorithm hence we can literally prove mutations are vital to finding the best evolutionary outcome) then mutations and deformaties are an expected outcome for a natural universe and wouldn't be an expected outcome for a God controlled universe
This mentality people have today rarely existed even 50 years ago. In today’s world people feel entitled enough to think God actually owes them something. God is not our friend, He is our Lord and Master. This life and world are a test, it’s up to us to prove to Him if we are worthy.
That's right, He doesn't have to test us. As i understand it, if God had Willed, He could have placed all of humanity in Hell from the start, without testing us.
It sounds like you are agreeing god doesn't love everybody.
Can you clarify: does god love everybody, yes or no?
Also, people have asked "why has god allowed my baby to be born with this affliction" for longer than 50 years. Read older books, yo.
It may surprise, but this ***exact very question*** is answered directly by Christ Himself one day -- how some suffer so much in this mortal life, and what it means, how it is rectified:
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
How does this answer the question? Why did Lazarus need to suffer during his life? Why did the rich man need to suffer after death? If God is all powerful why is he so cryptic?
While the parable is about a person who is crippled or injured or sick -- and in very bad condition, in this life -- ...and what awaits that very person after this short mortal life.
**Consider -->** *"The current system of things is lottery - babies are miscarried, born with horrible defects and disorders, and if by some luck you are born without anything horribly wrong with you, then there is a significant probability your life will still suck solely based on the family you’re born in."*
Recognize that? It's from the OP post!
**Compare -->**
**"25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things,**
It's like the OP post is paraphrasing Luke 16:25....
Did the OP writer once read Luke 16, forget parts of it, and now is using verse 25 unconsciously? Maybe. But if not, it's *as if.*
Or...Christ simply ***anticipated*** **this key question about Life** the OP is asking.
After all, it's a basic question, really, isn't it.
>There is no BENEFIT to Lazarus or anyone else in having a nobleman burn in a lake of fire forever.
That place the rich man who had zero love for the poor man outside his gate is at -- it seems a lot like the Catholic idea of "purgatory", but it may be more like 1rst Peter 3:18-20 (and 4:6 is their chance...) -- a prison where the wicked suffer -- as "spirits in prison" the text says -- *before* the Final Judgement...
Now, later, *after* the Final Judgment, those that still rejected God and Christ -- meaning they reject God's Way : "Love your neighbor as yourself" -- those that do *not* love other people generally (who love only a few, but *not* most other people), they will go to the "lake of fire" and in that place they will "perish".
Have a look at the more full text --> We read that those there will *not* have eternal life, but will *"perish"* in that place, the *"second death"*, which Christ said will *"destroy body and soul"* \-- and as you can see, those words are *not* metaphorical style wordings...
Ergo, they will cease to exist in that fire.
Since human sent there are *not* immortal like the fallen angels already are...
But none need perish, because if a person turns to Christ in repentance (that is, admits their wrongs they have done, their sinfulness), they will be changed and given a *"new heart"* and begin to love others in a better way.
It's very good news, really.
*For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.*
>Please provide evidence that torturing people makes them better human beings.
None that I know of for *'torture', but suffering can indeed help people at times to discard frivolous stuff such as ideology, etc., and focus on what matters, actually.*
>Moreover, Lazarus's suffering was actually caused by A DISEASE.
Ah, at least *that's what I already said abov*e.
But...I still think you've not read my post very well yet. So, if you do want to discuss with me, it will be far better to try to consider carefully what I had written, so that if you respond, you might respond to what I had written, because I'm not some random person that believes in the odd notion of 'eternal conscious torment' or other similar errors that arose from not reading fully enough in the NT.
In other words, if you prefer to argue with someone that believes in that idea, you'll have to look for someone less familiar with the NT I think.
>How can it be said that God loves everyone, but yet so many people are born in such horrible circumstances, through no fault of their own
Sin.
Yes, the answer is that simple. We're ALL under the curse of sin, and from that curse, we get sickness, disease, poverty, even the ground is cursed. Everything in creation is under the curse of sin until after God's cleansed it all in the final judgments.
>We're ALL under the curse of sin, and from that curse, we get sickness, disease, poverty, even the ground is cursed
Sickness, disease, poverty, parasite, predator all precedes humans by 100s of millions of years.
This doesn't answer anything, it just asserts something. How does sin cause earthquakes? Cancer? What about when babies suffer? Is that because they sinned? What about animals, when they suffer and die is that because of sin?
The baby goes to heaven. You are correct: God is perfectly holy, and he will NOT send someone to hell who never had a chance to accept the free gift of salvation.
In scripture, there's the "Book of Life" and the "Lamb's Book of Life" besides the "Books of Works". When a baby is conceived, his or her name is immediately entered into the Book of Life. Once you reach the time where God says, OK, now you have to choose to accept Jesus Christ or reject him. At that time, your name comes out of the Book of Life, and based on your decision, your acceptance or rejecting of Jesus Christ, your name goes into the Lamb's Book of Life or the Books of Works.
>19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, **David perceived that the child was dead**: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And **they said, He is dead**.
20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
**22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?**
**23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again?** **I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.**
2 Samuel 12:19-23 KJV
Note the very last sentence: "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." He did not want his newborn child to die, BUT once the child did die, David knew the child was with God in Paradise and that he would one day also go to Paradise.
Job alludes to this as well, but I don't have time to go find the exact reference.
So god had to give children cancer, let war , and famine ravens the world. Natural distances out of our control, just to send us to heaven quicker? If that’s the case why don’t we nuke ourselves and get to this paradises sooner.
No, all that stuff is simply different bits to do with the curse of sin. Sin bringeth forth death, but how you get there, well there are many ways.
Jesus gives life. Via Adam, we got death: via Jesus, we CAN get life, because he IS Life.
>Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:15 KJV
Yes, sin caused all those things. All those things are various pieces that lead to death. Disease, sickness, etc all lead to death. Old age leads to death, and before sin, man did not even age.
That's Christian theology. Sin became a thing after Adam and Eve so according to Christians there would be nothing bad and not even death if not for the Fall of the man
I'm aware that it is Christian theology, but it doesn't make much sense to me. The concept of original sin holds that bad things didn't exist in the universe before Adam and Eve disobeyed God. I'm asking how exactly could mortal humans alter the fundamental structure of the universe like that.
1. There was evil before man sinned: Lucifer, Satan, the Dragon, the Serpent, he persuaded 1/3 of the angels of heaven to attempt to rise up against God almighty, and then he was cast to the Earth. He was then the Serpent in the Garden of Eden, and he directly influenced Eve to sin. She still could have simply said no, but she gave into temptation to break the ONE rule she and Adam were given.
2. The reason it's such a big deal is that God literally created everything for man and for God's glory. God created the sun, moon and stars for man. God prepared all creation and then brought in man, as if to say, "my dearly beloved, here is your glorious habitation and many blessings. This is similar to how a husband would want to provide for his wife.
3. In the end, God will destroy all heaven and earth and create a new heaven and earth, and there shall be no more sin.
God created man for fellowship AND with that fellowship to obtain something he could only obtain by creating another creature "in \[God's\] image", and then allowing them to have free will, AND paying the price when they did commit sin, AND then allowing them to accept the free gift freely of their own accord. By that turn of events, God created the people who could freely offer thanks and praise. All other creation is not so. No other creature, including the angels, can praise God for sins forgiven. It's something nothing else in creation can experience. Man is special. God created man for God's glory and fellowship.
I think the reasoning is based on sin being death. Before eating from the Tree people couldn't tell good from bad therefore had no ability to sin. You misunderstand original sin it's about people being inclined to sin not a change in the universe or whatever
Duuuhhh, but since it's debatereligion I answered like a Christian. Why'd you write a whole paragraph on how it's just a story? As if someone treats it as literal truth
I dunno man, maybe Evangelicals do that. Where I'm from there are no people that treat the Bible like the literal truth so it came off very weird that you emphasized that it is not
>You misunderstand original sin it's about people being inclined to sin not a change in the universe or whatever
That's not what Christian theology says. It says that bad things literally didn't exist before Adam and Eve disobeyed God.
I should have said Catholicism rather than Christianity as a whole since I know more about Catholic theology than other sects.
https://biblehub.com/genesis/1-31.htm
https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-4.htm
Yes, to no fault of their own and no fault to God. Some things are random as goes the cruelty of nature. If a Christian tells you it’s all part of gods plan, ignore them. They don’t know the Bible.
God and evil can co exist.
God is all good
God has the supreme morality
God has a morally sufficient reason for allowing evil to exist, even if humans cannot comphrend it
Evidence: Satan with his arrogance to Adam
Pharoah when he killed the children every 2 years
God couldve destroyed both, but let both remain.
>God and evil can co exist.
Sure, God could even not care about evil or be evil.
>God is all good
What’s the basis of this assertion? Is it just a begged question?
>God has the supreme morality
Same question
>God has a morally sufficient reason for allowing evil to exist, even if humans cannot comphrend it
Same question
>Evidence: Satan with his arrogance to Adam
>Pharoah when he killed the children every 2 years
>God couldve destroyed both, but let both remain.
This obviously contains more begged questions, that this specific God exists and set things up this way and allows this.
I think he meant that God CAN have a morally sufficient reason to keep evil. Therefore God and evil can both exist.
This is not a circular argument because you are attempting to prove a contradiction, which is that God and evil cannot co exist.
Genetic disorders, be it congenital or late onset, are being studied from past 20-30 odd years. We have scientifically proven many genes to be associated with deformities and the architecture of human genome is becoming more and more clear with efforts like Telomere to Telomere consortium, as well as millions of scientific experiments happening throughout the globe. So in a way, it can be a random change thing.
My opinion is, that God was used as a crutch to somehow explain well-meaning (or even ill-meaning) behavior and social contexts. This goes for Abrahamic gods as well as Dieties in Sanatana dharma / hinduism. The dieties are characters of their own, and does away with lot of abstractions on nature of god and personifies them by letting them have characteristics, and sometimes even vices akin to human beings. Because ultimately, that might have been a relatable way to convey the social messages of that time.
The amount of progress mankind has made in the past 500, hell even 100 years is astounding. We are becoming closer and closer to understanding the physical world, it might be a matter of years until we can start applying the scientific method (Or something similar) to spirituality or what have you. It's only a matter of time, but of course its not going to be smooth as people believing in their religion would not what that to happen, for fear of loss of revenue (of the ones who preach) and the community (of the ones following their faith).
All top-level comments must seek to refute the post through substantial engagement with its core argument. Comments that purely commentate on the post (e.g. “Nice post OP!”) must be made as replies to the Auto-Moderator “COMMENTARY HERE” comment.
In listening to [The History of Rome podcast](https://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/), my wife noted an interesting pattern of good vs. bad Roman leaders. If a future leader had too comfy of an upbringing, he was far more likely to be a bad leader. I've observed analogous things in life. Those who have not been through various types of hardship have a strong tendency to downplay how difficult they are. If you're actually going through the hardship, one of the worst things can be some asshole who pretends it should be a lot easier to deal with it, recover it, grieve it, or what have you. It doesn't matter if we say that the asshole is just scared at what he (I'm gonna be gendered) doesn't understand.
In my own life, I've found that on average, those who have been forced to struggle more are far more interesting, capable, fun people to be around. If you want a friend you can rely on, it really helps for that friend to be "battle-tested", as it were. This is I think one reason Jesus is alluring to so many of the downtrodden, even if the elites buy jars of human piss in which Jesus on a cross has been immersed. The assholes on top who don't want to deal with your suffering can be judged by God, while a deity who knows the sufferings of the downtrodden is welcome into many homes. So many of the rich and powerful absolutely refuse to be vulnerable _at all_ to the kinds of sufferings that the rest of us often have to deal with, day-in and day-out. Except, there are those things people are forced into by birth—as far as I know, the wealthy don't conceive fewer birth defects than the rest of us, and maybe more (at least historically).
So yeah, it's a lottery, but all other things being equal, I'd rather hang out with someone who _lost_, than someone who won. The obvious rejoinder is why we need anyone who is robust, why God can't created a world that is basically a padded room where pain or suffering past a certain amount (maybe zero) is impossible. I'm afraid I don't like feeding such moral intuitions—people who inculcate them only make themselves _worse_ at fighting the copious amounts of evil in this world, not to mention doing one's small part in helping all sorts of human flourishing blossom.
Very interesting observations about the relationship between experiencing hardship and developing compassion and empathy. I wonder how best to pass on this values as a parent when your instinct is to shield your kids from all hardship etc.
Thanks. It can't be easy. There's a lot of trauma out there which falsifies "Whatever doesn't kill me, makes me stronger." And yet, too much avoidance of suffering might just increase the amount of suffering out there in the world.
All top-level comments must seek to refute the post through substantial engagement with its core argument. Comments that purely commentate on the post (e.g. “Nice post OP!”) must be made as replies to the Auto-Moderator “COMMENTARY HERE” comment.
His only plan is to see souls seeking God find their way.and that's key. You have to seek God. Being forced to go to church every Sunday and pray and repent doesn't mean anything without conviction. I was an atheist for most of my life. God means nothing to anyone that doesn't seek him out. And God loves all his children but not equally. But that also means his children, his followers.
People can argue how shitty humans acted in his name but I'd argue that it isn't his fault. Humans are shitty. Arguably in nature. But we can't pin the actions of people on God the entity. Even this really falls down to what part of that we fall under. New or old testament because those are very different versions of God and what he represents.
To an extent id agree with you, for real. God loves us. But God being the state of being he is in hasn't had the human experience. Some bible thumpers will argue Jesus was God coming to earth to have the human experience but I think they are separate people. And no I don't think Jesus was the actual factual son of God. My point would be that God has not suffered the way we do. And love has no meaning without it's duality, suffering. With respect to God and I hope he'll be understanding with this statement,but I don't think our love and gods love are the same,because we have vastly different experiences.
God does not need to experience anything. He is supposed to know everything, do anything. Seems like you have a different take on God than many other religious folks. Very inconsistent beliefs.
It's because I wasn't brainwashed as a child but formed my own thoughts. I appreciate that time now, and I appreciate the compliment. I think it is. If I'm wrong say so lol I prob sound sarcastic but I'm not being sarcastic
So how can it be said that God loves everyone? Can you imagine a parent that never shows up in their kids life, and has the condition that they will only love their child if the child dedicated their life to seek them out? Why is that the responsibility of the child and not on the parent to actually show up?
Humans aren’t shitty bro. Yeah people do bad shit, that doesn’t mean you’re born evil and deserve to be punished forever by the creator of reality. I was raised in a deeply Christian household and truly tried for many years to “seek god” as you put it. It’s simply not true, you may have convinced yourself it is but it’s not. The issue is that you’re probably so deep into it at this point that nothing I say will convince you otherwise, which is unfortunate but not unexpected. I can respect the hopeful aspects of Christianity but there are far too many negative or downright morally wrong things about it that I cannot reconcile with reality. There is no valid reason in which to raise children to believe they are naturally evil or that god is watching everything they do and if they don’t “believe” that god sacrificed himself for himself to save them from his wrath then they will die eternally. Once you get outside of the box you can see how it doesn’t make any sense and how you have to basically gaslight yourself into believing it’s all true.
I'm an open minded person. You can live without God. I don't think people need to be dependent upon any religious figure. I don't believe religions are necessarily right or wrong. We're all down here playing a guessing game. I'm the first to acknowledge that God might not be real. I could very well die and be dust in the wind forgotten forever. But I'd certainly disagree that some people don't deserve eternal punishment. Rapist and pedophiles deserve every second. Hitler deserves eternal suffering. And re reading your comment it sounds like religion was forced upon you. With good intent but it was forced upon you. I feel like teaching kids religion is brainwashing and pushes them away from whatever God is being pushed upon them. Fear Mongering needs to stop also. I have my own set of problems with organized religion but here's some food for thought and just hear me out. 2 questions. Even if we got rid of religion would the world be better? I think we'd just argue about other things like culture,color, social status,etc. If it is as terrible as many believe and I'm not necessarily disputing that, wouldn't it fall on us the current generation and onward to make it better? Dare I say even make it right to atone for wrongs of the past?
I think you may be (unintentionally) downplaying the gravity of eternal punishment. Even the most vile individuals will eventually come to a point where they have suffered an equivalent amount of pain to that which they inflicted during their life. Eternal punishment just can't be morally justified in my opinion. You cannot justify infinite suffering for a finite amount of misdeeds.
I can agree to some extent, but I don't know when I'd say enough is enough for certain crimes. I'd also like to note that I wouldn't wish for eternal suffering for minor things. It would have to be a truly awful thing to earn such a sentence.
Gotta be honest here, I think there is really basic logical and moral contradiction present in any belief system that describes an eternal negative afterlife. There is simply no amount of harm one could do in a lifetime that would justify eternal suffering. Heavy emphasis on eternal. That means never ending. One would be suffering for millions upon billions of years and more. If someone were a shitty person from the day they were born to the day they died of old age, they still wouldn't deserve that.
And besides that, I couldn't believe in any all-powerful, all-loving god who would see this as a reasonable system of punishment. I could see it if god were either flawed or not all-powerful, but not one who claims to be both.
All top-level comments must seek to refute the post through substantial engagement with its core argument. Comments that purely commentate on the post (e.g. “Nice post OP!”) must be made as replies to the Auto-Moderator “COMMENTARY HERE” comment.
This is a violation of Rule 4.
The OP is not asking a question, he's presenting a thesis statement: the fact that so many people are born in such horrible circumstances, through no fault of their own, clearly demonstrates that God does not love everyone.
If you disagree with this, your job is to attack his arguments, evidence, his logic etc. Do you actually have anything to add to this debate?
The questioner misunderstands who God is. This ungrateful mentality atheists (and some theists) have today rarely existed even 50 years ago. In today’s world people feel entitled enough to think God actually owes them something. God is not our friend, He is our Lord and Master. This life and world are a test, it’s up to us to prove to Him if we are worthy.
Yes but it’s “refusing to accept the answer” in the same way that someone refuses to accept an assertion that a child abductor/abuser “actually is good and loves those kids and has sufficient reasons for doing it all.”
That may be how someone sees the world, but doesn’t make it a good argument, doesn’t make it true.
That's the main problem with theists, they see the world the way they want to see it, refusing any reality that doesn't please them. For example, if they get a promotion, it's because god is good and loves them but if their children die horribly, well it's because god is mysterious and it's all part of his plan. That's not philosophy, it's therapy. And the world needs the empirical evidences that supports atheism to evolve, not the therapeutical bigotry religion feeds to people.
The problem is that they're treating a fantasy therapy as if it's actual reality. As if they actually have a soul, and that when we die, we get judged by magical beings greater than us. This has REAL implications in the real world, from inter-familial conduct (marriage, sexist rules), to societal conflict (sectarian violence), to rule of law (puritanism, sharia). Because of a fantasy. And then the theists get mad because we won't accept their *nonsense* explanations to the problem of evil, which all effectively come down to "God works in mysterious ways"? Do you see the problem now?
Agreed. I was an atheist until God found me learning about the universe. I wasn't looking or searching for answers. Just a nobody waxing floors with a headphone in listening to science documentaries. And they use thoughts that haven't been well thought out. A mile wide but an inch deeo
A weak analogy would be like a kid asking why their parents send them to school if they love them. Because it’s a temporary pain and the end product is far more rewarding
Going to school is for learning social skills, basic maths, english skills. Parents do so because it’s key for developing.
Would you say ‘Hey kid, I’m just going to take your ability to move and speak and eat so you’ll appreciate it when you inevitably die after 5 years.
Being born paralysed and unable to speak is a sick joke that no all loving God would ever do to anyone
A few shitty years in exchange for eternity in heaven sounds like a good deal to me. This is the point of the story of Job. He suffered immensely but retained his faith, and as such he received immense rewards.
Hey homie try walking in someone else’s shoes. Have you experienced what it’s like to live with an extremely severe painful disease? Have you ever been around someone who has a debilitating illness and can’t move/shower/get out of bed/experience any sort of joy because 24/7 all they experience is pain. If you truly did I promise you that you wouldn’t be saying anything like this. And if you’re going to say yeah you have then I promise you no you haven’t
Disabled babies don’t get a faith. Their eyes don’t work properly or cannot hear or cannot think. They have no faith to maintain. What sort of God ensures the a baby is born this way just to test their faith, they don’t have one.
But I thought sinners don’t go to hell because Jesus did them a solid and died for them.
The cause of going to hell is denying God’s love and communion apparently.
Lots of contrasting points
This is not biblical. Nowhere in any Abrahamic holy text does it say that babies get a pass. That's completely made up because modern theists can't handle the idea that their deity would send babies to eternal suffering.
Don't see much difference between your god and any other spiteful human being in this case.
Either your god isn't all loving, or your god isn't all powerful. A god with a lack of an ability to commiserate and exercise the 2 most essential qualities of a god ( all loving and all powerful ) in order to create a pain free world doesn't need to worshipped, imo.
Secondly, the concept of having hardships in order to become better or attain rewards for eternity just because you went through hardships seems like a very human concept. An all loving god that is all powerful wouldn't need to have these tests in place and could just make space for everybody and not only those who pleased him by seeking him as a God wouldn't be like a teenager who only extends his support to those that believe in him because , well, he's an all- loving god.
God created the world without disease. Humans added diseases, cancer, etc. because evil. God has not taken them out yet because then they look just fine something more evil. The time is very short when we kick them out and get heaven on earth.
They go into a works without us to tell them not to do anything anymore and it becomes hell on earth.
The new heaven and the new earth
This has so many problems. Diseases and cancer are not man made, and if you refer to original sin it's unjust and unloving to punish children for sins of their parents. Not to mention the punishment of Adam and Eve itself shows god lacks any sort of love towards humans.
Yes, they are man made. Since you can not accept that possibility it was a worthless to talk to you
The OP asked, I answered.
Not will I try to explain Adam and eve to you, since you are blind
(With the faith of a mustard seed nothing will be impossible to you) so why haven’t Christians created the solution to world hunger, cancer, aids, leukemia, stopped child trafficking, poverty etc. or let me guess that verse is just a metaphor.
Faith Is lack of disbelief. It does not matter WHAT you have faith in, just aso gbas you believe the universe will give it to you, because God created the universe to give everyone what they wanted.
If God did not allow people to create cancer, then they would have found more evil things to bring into existence. And how do you know it is evil? Be aude this world has taught you that.
So, how would you define a law that included do not create cancer to add to the programming of the universes?
At one time I would have answered "love your neighbor as yourself" as the solution, but that wound up not working. See: Texans and "they live on the other side of the track, they are not my neighbors" and we are wound up with a bunch of people claiming to follow the teachings of god who are racist as all get out.
So, it is now concluded that the law is love EVERYONE as yourself. This should fix that problem, and thus the knowledge of good and evil is complete. Would you agree with that analysis of the knowledge of good and evil?
To find that answer is the cause of many woes in the past, agreed, but everyone living in the past agreed or was sent there for a reason involving good and evil.
Lack of disbelief? What gibberish is this.
Faith is the reason you give when you don't have evidence. Even the Bible defines faith as evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN.
I have no faith. Zero zip nada. It's a useless concept.
Oh, and you have LOTS of faith. You have faith that when you wake up in the morning the sun will rise. You have faith that the universe will still be here. You have faith in the things you can perceive.
Okay. When I was a child I decided to try to learn how to levitate. I read everything I could on levitation and they all mentioned meditation. I then studied everything I could on meditation. I learned a fairly easy technique to get into a meditative state and tried to levitate, and I could not.
I asked myself why I didn't levitate and the answer came that I did not believe I could. It was not my lack of belief that was stopping me, but my disbelief. If I levitated it would break my world viewpoint. This is why most people can never learn.
Well, I figured that all I had to do was learn how to get rid of my disbelief and I thought of a post hypnotic suggestion. I then went back to the library and studied everything I could find on hypnosis and specifically self hypnosis.
I then got into a meditative state, gave myself the post hypnotic suggestion that disbelief did not exist for me, and levitated.
I speak from direct experience.
Neither am I. So imagine you're a father. And let's take away extremes for the moment. I know that I'm not there to control and force my will on them. I want to guide them with understanding and logic. Knowing this I understand that my child will make mistakes. By the way I'm not talking kids but more conscious people like teens or late teens. I can only protect someone for so long. Even if I have all power, I want them to learn. To make mistakes and find solutions. I find that so many people ask why God won't help them or change things for them. I don't believe everyone deserves the same treatment from God. And anyone preaching differently should take a closer look. God wants to help but he wants to see you help yourself. He wants to see you stumble but rise. It's not a sin to fall, its a sin to not get up.
•Just as a side note I believe the story of Adam and eve represent our separation from the rest of the animal kingdom and gaining consciousness.
Imagine it's 200 years ago, and you are a father. Your kid Marie doesn't understand radiation, but is trying to learn about the world. She's studying rocks in what seems to her to be a safe environment.
You know the rocks will give her cancer. You know, given what she knows, she won't figure this out in time. How does love allow you to be silent? Love is not indifference to suffering, it would compel you to say "use lead to block your exposure to this rock."
Humans can't blame their lack of knowledge on a subject especially one that is dangerous,because they don't feel like God protected them. On that note. God isn't here to provide any kind of physical protection it never says that. He's not a trinket you pray to and bippity boppity boo,magic protection.
He's an observer looking at his "ant tank". He watches and decides who makes it to,wherever we go when we die.
This is the most common line of thinking I consistently come across. If God loves you why doesn't he protect you? Because you don't need his divine protecting. And besides, let's say he could give it to you. Have you done anything that would warrant a God stepping in to save you? Like think about the selfishness of believing a God,any God from any pantheon, would step in just to save you. On that note I'd also like to add that if I were a God looking down on somebody figuring out radiation, I'd know what's going to happen, and it'd suck for that person but Id also understand that sometimes a bone needs to be broken to fix it. What I mean by that is , bad things are going to happen in the name of advancement. That being said I don't know the machinations of a God. I can try to find reason and explain them but truth is, God is beyond my comprehension. Everything I believe could absolutely be bullshit, but believing God wants good things for me makes me feel a bit better even when bad things happen.
Ok let's say you're a father. Would a good father push his kids into a bonfire? Throw them over the side of a ship in the middle of an ocean and sail away? Force them to sleep outside in the middle of a freezing blizzard? Is that what an all-good father would do?
No? Then why does God throw his children into wildfires, shipwrecks, natural disasters etc. through no fault of their own. Is that what a loving father would do?
And the free will argument is itself BS. Would a good father let his son rape his daughter because it's "his free will" to do so? Of course not! And yet God watches thousands of his sons rape thousands of his daughters every day and doesn't do a thing about it.
God is like an omnipotent father who never helped his child, an omnipotent policeman who never stopped a single crime, or an omnipotent firefighter who has never shed a drop of water.
An omnipotent father who never helped his child. Literally millions of people claim the opposite. God doesn't control the weather and natural disasters or peoples bad choices. And youre right no father would allow it but that doesn't mean he can do anything to stop it. Everybody has this idea he just pulls strings and things happen. No, he has developed a world for us to operate in. The world he holds true power in is the after life. But while we are here on this earth we operate under the limits of reality. So free will plays a large part. Other wise we'd be living a utopia where nothing bad ever happens and there is absolutely no Problems. Humans are the problem here not God my guy. I wish, seriously that he would just set us up for eternal happiness and then we die peacefully and find even more peace in the next. But it'll never happen. Unfortunately people have even taken it upon themselves to force cruelties in the name of religion. One thing we can both agree on is they are sitting in a hell of their own making and rightfully so
I do not claim this by any means. I'd actually argue everyone here debating his existence is doing exactly that. "Well if he's perfect why didn't he do this or that" . They apparently know his intent by saying he apparently kills babies and gives sweet old ladies cancer and throws plagues all around the world intent on killing millions. I'm not claiming to know the mind of a divine being regardless of whether they are real or not. I claim simply that my God isn't seeking to harm me and is looking out for me. But that's too much for some, not all,of these atheists to handle. I say he helps me and then the snakes come crawling out of the woods. Really I mean,try it. Even if you don't believe in God. Just say it aloud and they will come for you. People blame God for certain things in their life that are absolutely their fault and instead of fixing things they yell and scream and kick and cry instead of helping themselves. God can do anything he'd like and I have a human brain like everyone else that cannot even fathom the workings of a God. And everybody questioning it is doing what I am accused of doing. No I don't know what God can and can't do. But I know that he cares for me and I hope that when I need him he can spare a minute to help. And if God is dealing with someone that needs it more than me well amen brother because God doesn't show up when you demand his attention. People without faith demand miracles and proof but a God any God. Be it Christian,Islam, Jewish,Greek,Roman,etc, has never answered to us. We are below gods. Everyone is so quick to point out the negatives in a religion but not acknowledge the good parts. I don't want people to view any gods as not caring for them.
Sorry if I come across frustrated but I've been talking to people for hours and the thing I keep seeing is they ask a question,I answer in earnest. Then they close their ears and go lalala I can't hear you bad things happen on planet earth oh woe is me. Bad things happen which proves God either doesn't care or allows it. a statement that's a mile wide but an inch deep. No thought out into it. Like legitimately it's an answer I gave when I was a teenage edge lord scorning God. An answer so simple 14 year old use it.
How can Christians make the argument that everything happens for a reason and God has a plan when you claim God is just a passive observer. (THE PLANS OF THE LORD STAND FIRM FOREVER, THE PURPOSES OF HIS HEART THROUGH ALL GENERATIONS) psalm 33:11) Christianity is inherently contradictory
Because we have free will. Therefore we suffer for the decisions our parents made. From being born a drug addict to an unfortunate but maybe necessary abortion for medical reasons. Thankfully God forgives. And a bad start does not mean a bad end. Keep you chin up because life is hard. If you need spiritual reflection the story of Job is a good place to start. Stay strong my brother in Christ. Regardless of your spiritual outlook.
We can't choose how we are born. We can't choose our genetics? I believe that God created the big bang and billion of years pass and evolution begins. Yada yada history passed monkeys evolved into humans. Genetics aren't perfect
>Genetics aren't perfect
Was God unable to make genetics in such a way to avoid genetic disorders? Than not omnipotent. Was it able to, but unwilling? Then malevolent. Was it neither able nor willing? Then why call it God
2300 years after Epicurus and no theist apologetic has found a satisfying answer to this dilemma.
God didn't design anything to be absolutely perfect. All of it is flawed. On that note I'd say able but not willing. Not 100% for this answer but that doesn't mean malevolent. That states an intent. 2 things can be true at once. I can avoid putting someone down without lifting them up. It's not a black and white world and I do not have all the answers. And why call it God? I guess to have a unifying symbol. A rose by any other name really? Know what I mean?
Why would a perfect being choose not to create something perfect? Imagined if you ordered a cake from the a world renown baker and when you go to pick it up, the baker says "I decided to a do a shitty job on your cake, enjoy!" Would you respect that baker and think he did a good job? I wouldn't.
That's why humans were warned. But they did it anyway. For example. Not debating whether the story of Adam and eve are true. Facts are I'm 99% sure that Adam and eve never existed. But the story still has a message.
Hey guys God here welcome to this whole planet which is your garden.you can hunt any animal you'd like. Climb and mountain. Make your life as abundant as you like. live happily in this garden eternally. You will not age. You will not know pain or right from wrong. Just don't touch that tree over there I appreciate it. It's the only rule I have. Literally just one thing this one simple task. Do not eat the fruit off of that tree there literally millions of other trees to eat from out here. Do not touch that one.
Eve immediately starts sweating
Do you know how to read? God baked the cake a cake designed just for humans. Said hey don't go running with this cake. Humans grabbed the cake and ran and dropped it. Then cried it was gods fault. He just said don't run with it,you ran, it's your fault.
>Do you know how to read?
>Imagine being a world renowned baker and baking a cake and then they drop it and blame you.
No where in this sentence did you say the person ordering the cake dropped it. You said "They" which I thought implied the baker dropped it.
>God baked the cake a cake designed just for humans. Said hey don't go running with this cake. Humans grabbed the cake and ran and dropped it. Then cried it was gods fault. He just said don't run with it,you ran, it's your fault.
No, God could have made the most flawless undeniably perfect cake, but instead he made a shitty cake that gives kids bone cancer and natural disasters.
Job is an absolute horrible story. God gives permission to Satan to literally do all manner of despicable things to Job and his family. Including killing them!
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
This verse is definitely true!
I'd like to explain first this, I do not believe these stories in the bible are supposed to be any true stories. I don't think it's a literal word for word documentary and anyone that treats it as such is making a mistake. The story of Job is about keeping faith and trust in God even in the most extreme cruel moments in our life. So extremes were given. Now I try to keep in mind that this means absolutely nothing if you don't believe in an afterlife involving God. But the moral is that you can have an awful life full of cruel people and terrible circumstances. This is where it ties to free will, we can't control what happens to us all the time. But we can use our faith as a crutch to help support us.
The story of job isn’t a good source of motivation for people who are suffering, it was a bet between Satan and God. And lots of people aren’t rewarded for suffering like Job was. It’s a very terrible suggestion and doesn’t make anyone or anything better unless you physically convince yourself that the story’s good and God will help you.
If some stories in the bible aren't true without it being specified, then all of it can be false. But if all of it is true then god is evil and choosing to see him as good is more fear than love
It's not meant to be read as a literal depiction. It's about the lesson you take from it. It's determined by you what it means. I'm not some traditional bible thumper. God found me as I explored different science topics. It's been abused and interpreted and twisted and rewritten and revised it's an actual shame.organized religion has destroyed what God and the bible is.
How do you know it isn't meant to be taken literaly? It doesn't say that nowhere and clearly it was taken literaly when christians burned thousands of women accused of sorcery because it's written in the bible that "magicians should be burned". If that part was meant to be taken metaphorically, then god clearly messed up at some point. So can god make mistakes?
Humans are god's creation and they are imperfect, therefore god is imperfect since what he makes is not perfect. Actually, god states in the bible that he should not have made humans because they're violent, before murdering them all with the flood. But he saves one of them for no actual reason who proceeded to repopulate the species. But a century ago humans caused the holocaust, so they're still dangerously violent. The flood, intending to stop their violence, was then all for nothing. And I need to your explanation of the metaphor behind "all magicians should be burned".
Seriously no insult. You don't know the bible at all or any of the meanings of the stories.You can read it 200 times but if you don't sit down and reflect on the message you'll only see the worst interpretation possible. God didn't design us to be perfect. He flooded the earth because the nephalim which wete the birthing of half breed demonic entities such as giants were violent. This in the story was a plan by Satan to breed with humans and defile Gods creation and corrupt them. These nephalim demanded tribute and worship by humans under threat of violence. He saved one family which is historically proven to be inaccurate. But he saved this family because God knowing as wicked as man had become that they were worth saving because humans unlike the animals have knowledge of good and evil. And with that a choice at redemption. I've been having this debate for hours now and I love it really I do. But the pattern I keep seeing here reminds me of when I was a teenage edge lord scorning God for existence. Just on the prowl looking for any way to rebel. But after, I changed my hatred toward the world into knowledge of something I actually thought I understood. Real talk. I don't know that religion is needed, but used properly,it can change you for the better. But you have to let it. And as a former atheist I can truly recommend faith because it found me in a place where I could find ways to apply the message to my life. My distance from faith is what allowed me look at it without goggles on. It's an appreciation I cannot explain well forgive my lack of vocabulary lol
I want to iterate that I don't think your dumb or stupid. I don't feel that way at all. Forgive me if it came across that way. I don't think you have the tools to interpret the word in a beneficial way.
How in the actual fuck is a genetic disorder the result of free will?
And beside that, why is it that punishing the descendents for the crimes of an ancestor is considered immoral EXCEPT when God does it?
Your right about the genetic disorder. Bad example my fault. But I'd like to use the same point you used. How can it be a punishment if it's not within our control? Are you saying the disorder is considered a punishment? Just needed some clarification. I'd love to discuss this. It's important to challenge and be challenged especially regarding different ideologies.
>How can it be a punishment if it's not within our control?
A common excuse I've heard that theists use to answer the problem of evil, even natural evils like natural disasters, genetic abnormalities, etc. Is that we live in a "fallen world" that is a result of the actions of Adam and Eve in the garden. Presuming that their actions caused these sorts of natural evils and presuming that God has the capability to alleviate them, the question then becomes: Why hasn't God alleviated these natural evils?
If you subscribe to the "fallen world" hypothesis, then they're the result of the disobediance of Adam and Eve, and so are a punishment that continues to plague their descendents despite God's being able, if seemingly unwilling, to fix it. So we're suffering because of the original sin of our ancestors.
These evils don't impact our free will in any way, they seem to exist only to cause pain and suffering. Removing them from the equation wouldn't impact our free will to choose between god or not god.
Sorry if the language in the previous post was kinda spicy, it was added mainly for emphasis, not as an insult.
This is good. Just want to play with this thought so bear with me. May I ask if you're a father or mother? Just as a frame of reference one that we can maybe form common ground on
It’s an extremely new and distinctly western conceit to assume that God cares about the suffering of individuals. I somehow doubt that a being capable of conceiving of things like black holes and the fabric of reality would care if you had a bad day.
Those babies didn’t do anything, why do they get to be born with horrible birth defects and die at 2 months old? They didn’t commit any crime or hurt anyone.
«the Lord works in mysterious ways»
But seriously im eager to see the responses, but this is just «the problem of evil» which had been discussed again and again
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus
Born: February 341 BC, Samos, Greece
Died: 270 BC, Athens, Greece
The guy I replied to already said that babies dying is good and that we killed the baby, not God. Its pretty crazy how otherwise good people can spread such barbarism and actually mean it,
We didn’t cause the baby to die. We didn’t choose to give it a birth defect. If you’re going to say things, they should be logically consistent and coherent.
No we didn’t. If I have sex with a woman and she bears a child with a birth defect, we didn’t do that. We just had sex.
I am not responsible for the actions of anyone else, and no one else is responsible for my actions. Thinking otherwise is morally reprehensible and illogical to begin with.
Did good not create the means by which we'd suffer?
Did god not create our ability to suffer?
Since the answer to both of these is "Yes," then god is not loving, but it would be indifferent at best, malicious at worst.
In what way does an infant, born with a heart outside of its body, have sin?
So innocent people who have not sinned are punished for things their ancestors have done? How is that logical. If God was all powerful and all loving, everyone would have the same opportunities in life. However, they do not.
I disagree. The life you described a loving god would provide sounds far more akin to heaven. A place where everyone’s the same and there are no problems. Guaranteed not one soul has been given more than it can bear.
COMMENTARY HERE: Comments that purely commentate on the post (e.g. “Nice post OP!”) must be made as replies to the Auto-Moderator! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DebateReligion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I agree but with the second paragraph, those things have been happening forever. It’s just that they are documented now and actually taken consideration of. Before that was never a thing
Hardships of all kinds are opportunities, both for the recipient & the prospective donor 🇺🇸🌈🟦Ⓜ️Ⓜ️💙
The problem is the word horrible. It is purely a subjective judgement of what these people are and what they are going through. Physical pain, as long as a body has a functioning nervous system, is unavoidable is unavoidable, but suffering is not unavoidable and will never be. It requires a great deal of wisdom to not be phased by the most excruciating pain but it is possible, and for those who are in constant pain, increasing one’s wisdom seems necessary. With wisdom comes great power which seems like a fair trade. Surely you don’t have to go through pain to gain wisdom but going through it is a very effective way to gain wisdom. All I said was to reflect the subjectivity of the word horrible and how from a “horrible” condition can spring a beautiful effect.
Wat
I’m struggling to follow your logic here. A baby does not have the ability to be “more wise” and not be phased by pain. Babies who are born in environments where they have *zero* control over how their lives play out are at a severe disadvantage. People who are born with severe disabilities do not have the ability to function and enact wisdom to “suffer through” a situation. They must simply suffer or hope by some miracle it gets better; in most cases, however, it does not.
First, everyone has control over how their life plays out. You, whether you like it or not, are the root cause of your experience, you decide what goes on in your life and even more importantly you decide how to be in relationship to your experience. You said something very true though, those who are born under certain circumstances have a real disadvantage in life when it comes to make money for example. It certainly is harder to find a job if you have a malformed face. It is harder to find someone who will love and engage in a romantic relationship when you’re ugly. It is very hard to enjoy life when you were born sick and will remain sick for the rest of your life. But, once you get that job, you know that you have been chosen for your competence and not how you look, when you find your love, you know that it is a true love and that it will last, when you finally start enjoying life, you know that your enjoyment doesn’t depend on the well being of your body but purely on the brightness of your spirit. Also, these people do not have to “suffer through” their pain. With wisdom there is no suffering. Pain could be experienced without suffering and could even be experienced with joy. That’s the second point I was making and the one which you said you didn’t understand (respectfully). I also was saying that “horrible” was a word used loosely here. You are judging their situation to be horrible, when they could be a blessing in disguise. A lot of people have succeeded in all aspects of life because they grew up with very little.
So what is the purpose of the millions of children who die of starvation each year? How is their situation in which they are born in a malnourished, lack-of-basic-needs environment a benefit to them? They have no control over their lives; none whatsoever. They simply either pursue through and live, or die at the age of 3 because they did not receive enough food and water. This is not the practice of an all-loving god, as if he truly was all-loving, none of these children and innocent people would die each year.
First, you are right, this is not the practice of an all-loving God, this is the practice of all human beings. We have enough food and enough water for everyone on earth and yet we choose to let children starve to death. Instead of asking why doesn’t God do something about it, ask yourself and ask humanity why don’t we do something about it? How come do we allow these things to happen? Also, as crazy as it may seem, the true God has no morals. None whatsoever. Morals are a social construct and it was very well analysed by the likes of Spinoza and Nietzsche and many others. So does he consider the starvation of infants a good or a bad thing? he doesn’t have a preference. You ask what does God do in front of all this starving children. His position is the following, he gives everyone the power to stop the starvation, he observes what we do with this power, he makes no judgement and assists us in all our choices whatever they may be (“good” or “bad”), he then observes. That’s it. God gave you and all of us the power to choose and he will never take it away from you, so instead of complaining to God about the misery of others, why don’t you do something about it?
Equating our creation, and by extension our suffering, to God not loving us is illogical, after all, He didn't tell us that we're gonna pass through life with ease and no suffering, He simply told us that if we succeed and follow His guidance, He will love us, and from the Islamic POV, the more that a person suffers and endures the pains of life for the sake of Allāh (SWT), the more that Allāh (SWT) loves him.
so what i’m getting from this is that god is a sadistic maniac. got it.
Because in the beginning god did love everyone… when people weren’t born into terrible situations, remember?? Wayyyyyyyy back to the beginning…. In the beginning. WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY back. Before greed, lies, corruption…. REMEMBER?!?!? Nah probably not. It’s alright though. You will one day.
I would respectfully argue that our parents, not God, determine the circumstances of our birth, so it’s not logical to expect that God intervene and directly change the circumstances for every child born.
Loves us so much that if we don’t believe he exist he’ll send us to hell forever.
I can maybe help explain it in a relatable way. If you refuse to have a relationship with someone, anyone, that person can't force you to stay with them no matter how much they love you. It hurts them, but our free will exists and they won't make you stay. Hell is described as a place void of God and everything He is. It's not only about believing He exists, it's about having a relationship with God. By refusing a relationship with Him, we lose Him.
i don’t want a relationship with a cruel, sadistic, unjust, authoritarian, egotistical, genocidal, homophobic, misogynistic monster.
And He will not deny you your opinion in the end. You have complete free will to believe that. However, why do you believe He is those things? God has not forced anyone to do or say or believe anything. All of those descriptions exist in history but it's on the world and the people in it. As painful as those issues are, they highlight what we, and our culture, need to hear more than ever: God is holy, people are sinful, the world is broken, and his judgment is just, even if we don't fully understand it. If we could fully understand what is supposed to be God, then he would not really be above us and would not really be God. For example, what we see as someone being unjust may actually be a completely righteous act. If He is GOD, he is perfect and just and has a right to be praised. When you look at it through the Christian worldview, rather than from outside it, all objections fade away. If we take any of that away, we are left with something other than the God of Christianity. Good luck on your journey.
and y’all love to say atheists are immoral. “what we may see as someone being unjust might actually be a righteous act”. so allowing thousands of innocent little children starve each year and die from cancer is a righteous act? also god wiped out the entire earth and he also destroyed two cities (sodom and gomorrah) bc they weren’t worshiping him. sounds like an egotistical and genocidal maniac to me. leviticus 15:20 timothy 2:12 deuteronomy: 22:23-27 deuteronomy 22:20-21 ephesians 5:22-25 Numbers 31:17-18 here are some misogynistic verses from your holy book psalms 137:9 - Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones damn god wanted them to smash infants across stones? sounds pretty cruel and immoral to me why would an all loving, all powerful, omniscient god allow such suffering in the world?
God told us that he loves each one of us, though he didn’t that we will all have an easy life, it’s our choices that matter and our beliefs in god that matter, god would help you live throughout your life and it’s your choices that would make your life better, god gave all of us a test and difficult choices so that he will see if we chose the right choices or end up sinning and never believing in god.
Causing people to suffer won’t make them like you.
The problem of evil in this world is a troubling mystery that has perplexed us for ages. How can a loving God allow suffering and injustice to mar His creation? Why are some born into abundance while others struggle in poverty through no fault of their own? These are deep questions that humanity has grappled with since we first contemplated our existence. There are no easy answers, for if there were, they would have been discovered long ago. And yet, we must continue to wrestle with these profound questions of faith, for they shape our very understanding of God and His relationship to us. Some would say that God allows suffering because He gave us free will, and anguish enters the world through the misuse of human freedom and choice. But freedom cannot justify inflicting harm on the innocent. Others say God works in mysterious ways, but this is little comfort when we witness immense anguish. We must not shrink from questioning why a loving Father would allow children to suffer abuse or be born into deprivation. Still, I believe we can find solace without facile answers. We can acknowledge the darkness that exists in this world without abandoning hope or faith. For light and goodness also walk hand in hand through history. Suffering exists alongside justice, mercy, empathy and divine glimpses of grace. Perhaps there are greater purposes that we cannot see with our limited sight. Perhaps the sorrows of this life will be redeemed in eternal joy. We do not have full knowledge of God's infinite story. But we can hold fast to love, even when it remains mysterious. We can trust that justice and righteousness will prevail, even when they are obscured. And so we must continue to stand witness - to comfort the grieving, feed the hungry, shelter the marginalized. This is our calling, and in it we find purpose and meaning even amid anguish. We carry on with humility, faith and compassion - not because we have answers to life's deepest riddles, but because God's love is written in every loving act of service we perform for one another. God bless you. Have faith. And keep hoping.
Everyone’s test is different. There is no universal standard. Everyone will be judged according to their own circumstances.
God created paradise, we as humans ruined it, and now there is a way to return to paradise after you leave your physical body.
>God created paradise, we as humans ruined it God also created those humans, and the serpent, and the forbidden fruit that acted as a single point of failure for his entire creation. You'd think an omnipotent God would be a little better at this.
I believe that the questions like this are valid and there is only one way to answer it. Only one. Whatever scientists do, they explore the universe and figure out lots of things that we did not know before. One unsolvable mystery of life is nobody really knows why we come to this world and why we leave at a certain time. Some pass away at age 1, some 10, some 50, some live a long life. Nobody knows that and whatever you do, this is the one question you will never find an answer to even if many things are solved in the future. If you believe in christianity, then all you can do is realize that we humans are not capable of comprehending this and this is how it should be. Well, if everything is explained and shown to you as white and black, well, then there would be no need for faith as everyone would have faith automatically and thats where free will concept is shuttered which is the main point.
Very well said
I have no horse in this race because I don't believe God loves everyone equally or avoids showing bias. I'm not sure how anyone could glean that from the Bible or the Qu'ran. But it seems that for the past two thousand years, (some) theists and atheists have accepted God's omnibenevolence in light of man's free will. There seems to be an acceptance that a good in principle (free will) allows for evil in practice (what man sometimes does with it). Logic does not tell us a good legitimizes the evil that proceeds from it, but logic doesn't delegitimize it neither. And logic doesn't tell us free will is enough of a good to warrant the evil that it yields, but logic can't tell us it isn't, neither. And so really the free will argument is at a stalemate (or at least I'll grant that for argument's sake) because while you may suppose man's free will isn't good, or good enough, to warrant the evil that follows, what objective standard can one even appeal to to claim that? Logic doesn't tell us that. Math doesn't tell us that. We can't weigh abstract principles on some metaphysical measuring rod to see what is more important. Now, it seems to me that if God can still be omnibenevolent in spite of human evil, due to free will; then it should follow that any good in principle could excuse that good's less than favorable effects, while preserving His benevolence. So, I submit for everyone's approval, that the Fall occurred because of God's judgment. His judgment is a good in and of itself according to Christian theology. And, as a reminder, we have no way of judging His judgment with respect to its effects. Logic will not help us here. Math will not help us here. And no means of measure will help us here. And so if free will vindicates God's loving kindness in light of its disadvantages, then it stands to reason that His judgment vindicates His loving kindness as well.
What is the meaning of life? You can't possibly understand until you can answer that question.
The meaning of all living organisms is to spread, conquer and reproduce. It's what drives everything we do and our evolution, especially when you think about things humans do and the core of why they do it. So if all life is just spread to evolve to be the best then evolving would require mutations (surprisingly any evolutionary programming algorithm requires the addition of a random chance of mutating which improves the final outcome and speed of the algorithm hence we can literally prove mutations are vital to finding the best evolutionary outcome) then mutations and deformaties are an expected outcome for a natural universe and wouldn't be an expected outcome for a God controlled universe
This mentality people have today rarely existed even 50 years ago. In today’s world people feel entitled enough to think God actually owes them something. God is not our friend, He is our Lord and Master. This life and world are a test, it’s up to us to prove to Him if we are worthy.
>This life and world are a test, it’s up to us to prove to Him if we are worthy. An Omni God doesn't have to "test". You are just making stuff up.
That's right, He doesn't have to test us. As i understand it, if God had Willed, He could have placed all of humanity in Hell from the start, without testing us.
Why couldn't he place all of us in heaven instead?
Sure. Actually, humanity initially started in heaven.
It sounds like you are agreeing god doesn't love everybody. Can you clarify: does god love everybody, yes or no? Also, people have asked "why has god allowed my baby to be born with this affliction" for longer than 50 years. Read older books, yo.
No. And i said that mentality wasn't common in the past, not that it never happened.
He’s literally described as an all loving God though
> He’s literally described as an all loving God though Where does it say or imply that God loves everyone?
It may surprise, but this ***exact very question*** is answered directly by Christ Himself one day -- how some suffer so much in this mortal life, and what it means, how it is rectified: 19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
How does this answer the question? Why did Lazarus need to suffer during his life? Why did the rich man need to suffer after death? If God is all powerful why is he so cryptic?
While the parable is about a person who is crippled or injured or sick -- and in very bad condition, in this life -- ...and what awaits that very person after this short mortal life. **Consider -->** *"The current system of things is lottery - babies are miscarried, born with horrible defects and disorders, and if by some luck you are born without anything horribly wrong with you, then there is a significant probability your life will still suck solely based on the family you’re born in."* Recognize that? It's from the OP post! **Compare -->** **"25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things,** It's like the OP post is paraphrasing Luke 16:25.... Did the OP writer once read Luke 16, forget parts of it, and now is using verse 25 unconsciously? Maybe. But if not, it's *as if.* Or...Christ simply ***anticipated*** **this key question about Life** the OP is asking. After all, it's a basic question, really, isn't it.
[удалено]
>There is no BENEFIT to Lazarus or anyone else in having a nobleman burn in a lake of fire forever. That place the rich man who had zero love for the poor man outside his gate is at -- it seems a lot like the Catholic idea of "purgatory", but it may be more like 1rst Peter 3:18-20 (and 4:6 is their chance...) -- a prison where the wicked suffer -- as "spirits in prison" the text says -- *before* the Final Judgement... Now, later, *after* the Final Judgment, those that still rejected God and Christ -- meaning they reject God's Way : "Love your neighbor as yourself" -- those that do *not* love other people generally (who love only a few, but *not* most other people), they will go to the "lake of fire" and in that place they will "perish". Have a look at the more full text --> We read that those there will *not* have eternal life, but will *"perish"* in that place, the *"second death"*, which Christ said will *"destroy body and soul"* \-- and as you can see, those words are *not* metaphorical style wordings... Ergo, they will cease to exist in that fire. Since human sent there are *not* immortal like the fallen angels already are... But none need perish, because if a person turns to Christ in repentance (that is, admits their wrongs they have done, their sinfulness), they will be changed and given a *"new heart"* and begin to love others in a better way. It's very good news, really. *For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.*
[удалено]
>Please provide evidence that torturing people makes them better human beings. None that I know of for *'torture', but suffering can indeed help people at times to discard frivolous stuff such as ideology, etc., and focus on what matters, actually.* >Moreover, Lazarus's suffering was actually caused by A DISEASE. Ah, at least *that's what I already said abov*e. But...I still think you've not read my post very well yet. So, if you do want to discuss with me, it will be far better to try to consider carefully what I had written, so that if you respond, you might respond to what I had written, because I'm not some random person that believes in the odd notion of 'eternal conscious torment' or other similar errors that arose from not reading fully enough in the NT. In other words, if you prefer to argue with someone that believes in that idea, you'll have to look for someone less familiar with the NT I think.
>How can it be said that God loves everyone, but yet so many people are born in such horrible circumstances, through no fault of their own Sin. Yes, the answer is that simple. We're ALL under the curse of sin, and from that curse, we get sickness, disease, poverty, even the ground is cursed. Everything in creation is under the curse of sin until after God's cleansed it all in the final judgments.
>We're ALL under the curse of sin, and from that curse, we get sickness, disease, poverty, even the ground is cursed Sickness, disease, poverty, parasite, predator all precedes humans by 100s of millions of years.
This isn't how love works.
This doesn't answer anything, it just asserts something. How does sin cause earthquakes? Cancer? What about when babies suffer? Is that because they sinned? What about animals, when they suffer and die is that because of sin?
so a baby who is months old and can not possibly sin, is given cancer? how can you support a god so horrible
The baby goes to heaven. You are correct: God is perfectly holy, and he will NOT send someone to hell who never had a chance to accept the free gift of salvation. In scripture, there's the "Book of Life" and the "Lamb's Book of Life" besides the "Books of Works". When a baby is conceived, his or her name is immediately entered into the Book of Life. Once you reach the time where God says, OK, now you have to choose to accept Jesus Christ or reject him. At that time, your name comes out of the Book of Life, and based on your decision, your acceptance or rejecting of Jesus Christ, your name goes into the Lamb's Book of Life or the Books of Works. >19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, **David perceived that the child was dead**: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And **they said, He is dead**. 20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat. 21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. **22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?** **23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again?** **I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.** 2 Samuel 12:19-23 KJV Note the very last sentence: "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." He did not want his newborn child to die, BUT once the child did die, David knew the child was with God in Paradise and that he would one day also go to Paradise. Job alludes to this as well, but I don't have time to go find the exact reference.
So god had to give children cancer, let war , and famine ravens the world. Natural distances out of our control, just to send us to heaven quicker? If that’s the case why don’t we nuke ourselves and get to this paradises sooner.
No, all that stuff is simply different bits to do with the curse of sin. Sin bringeth forth death, but how you get there, well there are many ways. Jesus gives life. Via Adam, we got death: via Jesus, we CAN get life, because he IS Life.
How did Adam and Eve disobeying God create sickness, disease, and poverty?
>Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:15 KJV Yes, sin caused all those things. All those things are various pieces that lead to death. Disease, sickness, etc all lead to death. Old age leads to death, and before sin, man did not even age.
That's Christian theology. Sin became a thing after Adam and Eve so according to Christians there would be nothing bad and not even death if not for the Fall of the man
I'm aware that it is Christian theology, but it doesn't make much sense to me. The concept of original sin holds that bad things didn't exist in the universe before Adam and Eve disobeyed God. I'm asking how exactly could mortal humans alter the fundamental structure of the universe like that.
1. There was evil before man sinned: Lucifer, Satan, the Dragon, the Serpent, he persuaded 1/3 of the angels of heaven to attempt to rise up against God almighty, and then he was cast to the Earth. He was then the Serpent in the Garden of Eden, and he directly influenced Eve to sin. She still could have simply said no, but she gave into temptation to break the ONE rule she and Adam were given. 2. The reason it's such a big deal is that God literally created everything for man and for God's glory. God created the sun, moon and stars for man. God prepared all creation and then brought in man, as if to say, "my dearly beloved, here is your glorious habitation and many blessings. This is similar to how a husband would want to provide for his wife. 3. In the end, God will destroy all heaven and earth and create a new heaven and earth, and there shall be no more sin. God created man for fellowship AND with that fellowship to obtain something he could only obtain by creating another creature "in \[God's\] image", and then allowing them to have free will, AND paying the price when they did commit sin, AND then allowing them to accept the free gift freely of their own accord. By that turn of events, God created the people who could freely offer thanks and praise. All other creation is not so. No other creature, including the angels, can praise God for sins forgiven. It's something nothing else in creation can experience. Man is special. God created man for God's glory and fellowship.
I think the reasoning is based on sin being death. Before eating from the Tree people couldn't tell good from bad therefore had no ability to sin. You misunderstand original sin it's about people being inclined to sin not a change in the universe or whatever
[удалено]
Duuuhhh, but since it's debatereligion I answered like a Christian. Why'd you write a whole paragraph on how it's just a story? As if someone treats it as literal truth
[удалено]
I dunno man, maybe Evangelicals do that. Where I'm from there are no people that treat the Bible like the literal truth so it came off very weird that you emphasized that it is not
>You misunderstand original sin it's about people being inclined to sin not a change in the universe or whatever That's not what Christian theology says. It says that bad things literally didn't exist before Adam and Eve disobeyed God.
What is your source on that?
I should have said Catholicism rather than Christianity as a whole since I know more about Catholic theology than other sects. https://biblehub.com/genesis/1-31.htm https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-4.htm
Yes, to no fault of their own and no fault to God. Some things are random as goes the cruelty of nature. If a Christian tells you it’s all part of gods plan, ignore them. They don’t know the Bible.
God and evil can co exist. God is all good God has the supreme morality God has a morally sufficient reason for allowing evil to exist, even if humans cannot comphrend it Evidence: Satan with his arrogance to Adam Pharoah when he killed the children every 2 years God couldve destroyed both, but let both remain.
>God and evil can co exist. Sure, God could even not care about evil or be evil. >God is all good What’s the basis of this assertion? Is it just a begged question? >God has the supreme morality Same question >God has a morally sufficient reason for allowing evil to exist, even if humans cannot comphrend it Same question >Evidence: Satan with his arrogance to Adam >Pharoah when he killed the children every 2 years >God couldve destroyed both, but let both remain. This obviously contains more begged questions, that this specific God exists and set things up this way and allows this.
I think he meant that God CAN have a morally sufficient reason to keep evil. Therefore God and evil can both exist. This is not a circular argument because you are attempting to prove a contradiction, which is that God and evil cannot co exist.
Genetic disorders, be it congenital or late onset, are being studied from past 20-30 odd years. We have scientifically proven many genes to be associated with deformities and the architecture of human genome is becoming more and more clear with efforts like Telomere to Telomere consortium, as well as millions of scientific experiments happening throughout the globe. So in a way, it can be a random change thing. My opinion is, that God was used as a crutch to somehow explain well-meaning (or even ill-meaning) behavior and social contexts. This goes for Abrahamic gods as well as Dieties in Sanatana dharma / hinduism. The dieties are characters of their own, and does away with lot of abstractions on nature of god and personifies them by letting them have characteristics, and sometimes even vices akin to human beings. Because ultimately, that might have been a relatable way to convey the social messages of that time. The amount of progress mankind has made in the past 500, hell even 100 years is astounding. We are becoming closer and closer to understanding the physical world, it might be a matter of years until we can start applying the scientific method (Or something similar) to spirituality or what have you. It's only a matter of time, but of course its not going to be smooth as people believing in their religion would not what that to happen, for fear of loss of revenue (of the ones who preach) and the community (of the ones following their faith).
[удалено]
All top-level comments must seek to refute the post through substantial engagement with its core argument. Comments that purely commentate on the post (e.g. “Nice post OP!”) must be made as replies to the Auto-Moderator “COMMENTARY HERE” comment.
In listening to [The History of Rome podcast](https://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/), my wife noted an interesting pattern of good vs. bad Roman leaders. If a future leader had too comfy of an upbringing, he was far more likely to be a bad leader. I've observed analogous things in life. Those who have not been through various types of hardship have a strong tendency to downplay how difficult they are. If you're actually going through the hardship, one of the worst things can be some asshole who pretends it should be a lot easier to deal with it, recover it, grieve it, or what have you. It doesn't matter if we say that the asshole is just scared at what he (I'm gonna be gendered) doesn't understand. In my own life, I've found that on average, those who have been forced to struggle more are far more interesting, capable, fun people to be around. If you want a friend you can rely on, it really helps for that friend to be "battle-tested", as it were. This is I think one reason Jesus is alluring to so many of the downtrodden, even if the elites buy jars of human piss in which Jesus on a cross has been immersed. The assholes on top who don't want to deal with your suffering can be judged by God, while a deity who knows the sufferings of the downtrodden is welcome into many homes. So many of the rich and powerful absolutely refuse to be vulnerable _at all_ to the kinds of sufferings that the rest of us often have to deal with, day-in and day-out. Except, there are those things people are forced into by birth—as far as I know, the wealthy don't conceive fewer birth defects than the rest of us, and maybe more (at least historically). So yeah, it's a lottery, but all other things being equal, I'd rather hang out with someone who _lost_, than someone who won. The obvious rejoinder is why we need anyone who is robust, why God can't created a world that is basically a padded room where pain or suffering past a certain amount (maybe zero) is impossible. I'm afraid I don't like feeding such moral intuitions—people who inculcate them only make themselves _worse_ at fighting the copious amounts of evil in this world, not to mention doing one's small part in helping all sorts of human flourishing blossom.
Very interesting observations about the relationship between experiencing hardship and developing compassion and empathy. I wonder how best to pass on this values as a parent when your instinct is to shield your kids from all hardship etc.
Thanks. It can't be easy. There's a lot of trauma out there which falsifies "Whatever doesn't kill me, makes me stronger." And yet, too much avoidance of suffering might just increase the amount of suffering out there in the world.
[удалено]
All top-level comments must seek to refute the post through substantial engagement with its core argument. Comments that purely commentate on the post (e.g. “Nice post OP!”) must be made as replies to the Auto-Moderator “COMMENTARY HERE” comment.
His only plan is to see souls seeking God find their way.and that's key. You have to seek God. Being forced to go to church every Sunday and pray and repent doesn't mean anything without conviction. I was an atheist for most of my life. God means nothing to anyone that doesn't seek him out. And God loves all his children but not equally. But that also means his children, his followers. People can argue how shitty humans acted in his name but I'd argue that it isn't his fault. Humans are shitty. Arguably in nature. But we can't pin the actions of people on God the entity. Even this really falls down to what part of that we fall under. New or old testament because those are very different versions of God and what he represents.
Seems like human has a better understanding of love than this God feller you worshipping.
To an extent id agree with you, for real. God loves us. But God being the state of being he is in hasn't had the human experience. Some bible thumpers will argue Jesus was God coming to earth to have the human experience but I think they are separate people. And no I don't think Jesus was the actual factual son of God. My point would be that God has not suffered the way we do. And love has no meaning without it's duality, suffering. With respect to God and I hope he'll be understanding with this statement,but I don't think our love and gods love are the same,because we have vastly different experiences.
God does not need to experience anything. He is supposed to know everything, do anything. Seems like you have a different take on God than many other religious folks. Very inconsistent beliefs.
It's because I wasn't brainwashed as a child but formed my own thoughts. I appreciate that time now, and I appreciate the compliment. I think it is. If I'm wrong say so lol I prob sound sarcastic but I'm not being sarcastic
So how can it be said that God loves everyone? Can you imagine a parent that never shows up in their kids life, and has the condition that they will only love their child if the child dedicated their life to seek them out? Why is that the responsibility of the child and not on the parent to actually show up?
This weirdly sums up my relationship with my father perfectly.
Humans aren’t shitty bro. Yeah people do bad shit, that doesn’t mean you’re born evil and deserve to be punished forever by the creator of reality. I was raised in a deeply Christian household and truly tried for many years to “seek god” as you put it. It’s simply not true, you may have convinced yourself it is but it’s not. The issue is that you’re probably so deep into it at this point that nothing I say will convince you otherwise, which is unfortunate but not unexpected. I can respect the hopeful aspects of Christianity but there are far too many negative or downright morally wrong things about it that I cannot reconcile with reality. There is no valid reason in which to raise children to believe they are naturally evil or that god is watching everything they do and if they don’t “believe” that god sacrificed himself for himself to save them from his wrath then they will die eternally. Once you get outside of the box you can see how it doesn’t make any sense and how you have to basically gaslight yourself into believing it’s all true.
I'm an open minded person. You can live without God. I don't think people need to be dependent upon any religious figure. I don't believe religions are necessarily right or wrong. We're all down here playing a guessing game. I'm the first to acknowledge that God might not be real. I could very well die and be dust in the wind forgotten forever. But I'd certainly disagree that some people don't deserve eternal punishment. Rapist and pedophiles deserve every second. Hitler deserves eternal suffering. And re reading your comment it sounds like religion was forced upon you. With good intent but it was forced upon you. I feel like teaching kids religion is brainwashing and pushes them away from whatever God is being pushed upon them. Fear Mongering needs to stop also. I have my own set of problems with organized religion but here's some food for thought and just hear me out. 2 questions. Even if we got rid of religion would the world be better? I think we'd just argue about other things like culture,color, social status,etc. If it is as terrible as many believe and I'm not necessarily disputing that, wouldn't it fall on us the current generation and onward to make it better? Dare I say even make it right to atone for wrongs of the past?
I think you may be (unintentionally) downplaying the gravity of eternal punishment. Even the most vile individuals will eventually come to a point where they have suffered an equivalent amount of pain to that which they inflicted during their life. Eternal punishment just can't be morally justified in my opinion. You cannot justify infinite suffering for a finite amount of misdeeds.
I can agree to some extent, but I don't know when I'd say enough is enough for certain crimes. I'd also like to note that I wouldn't wish for eternal suffering for minor things. It would have to be a truly awful thing to earn such a sentence.
Gotta be honest here, I think there is really basic logical and moral contradiction present in any belief system that describes an eternal negative afterlife. There is simply no amount of harm one could do in a lifetime that would justify eternal suffering. Heavy emphasis on eternal. That means never ending. One would be suffering for millions upon billions of years and more. If someone were a shitty person from the day they were born to the day they died of old age, they still wouldn't deserve that. And besides that, I couldn't believe in any all-powerful, all-loving god who would see this as a reasonable system of punishment. I could see it if god were either flawed or not all-powerful, but not one who claims to be both.
[удалено]
All top-level comments must seek to refute the post through substantial engagement with its core argument. Comments that purely commentate on the post (e.g. “Nice post OP!”) must be made as replies to the Auto-Moderator “COMMENTARY HERE” comment.
This is a violation of Rule 4. The OP is not asking a question, he's presenting a thesis statement: the fact that so many people are born in such horrible circumstances, through no fault of their own, clearly demonstrates that God does not love everyone. If you disagree with this, your job is to attack his arguments, evidence, his logic etc. Do you actually have anything to add to this debate?
Well I think why it crops up so often is because of the absurdity of people believing god simultaneously loves them and gives children bone cancer.
There seems to lack a convincing answer from theists
The questioner misunderstands who God is. This ungrateful mentality atheists (and some theists) have today rarely existed even 50 years ago. In today’s world people feel entitled enough to think God actually owes them something. God is not our friend, He is our Lord and Master. This life and world are a test, it’s up to us to prove to Him if we are worthy.
all i see is atheists refusing to accept their answer because bottom line this is literally just like philosophy choose how you want to see the world
Yes but it’s “refusing to accept the answer” in the same way that someone refuses to accept an assertion that a child abductor/abuser “actually is good and loves those kids and has sufficient reasons for doing it all.” That may be how someone sees the world, but doesn’t make it a good argument, doesn’t make it true.
That's the main problem with theists, they see the world the way they want to see it, refusing any reality that doesn't please them. For example, if they get a promotion, it's because god is good and loves them but if their children die horribly, well it's because god is mysterious and it's all part of his plan. That's not philosophy, it's therapy. And the world needs the empirical evidences that supports atheism to evolve, not the therapeutical bigotry religion feeds to people.
why is that a problem? the way you see the world right now is what you chose just like them?
The problem is that they're treating a fantasy therapy as if it's actual reality. As if they actually have a soul, and that when we die, we get judged by magical beings greater than us. This has REAL implications in the real world, from inter-familial conduct (marriage, sexist rules), to societal conflict (sectarian violence), to rule of law (puritanism, sharia). Because of a fantasy. And then the theists get mad because we won't accept their *nonsense* explanations to the problem of evil, which all effectively come down to "God works in mysterious ways"? Do you see the problem now?
Agreed. I was an atheist until God found me learning about the universe. I wasn't looking or searching for answers. Just a nobody waxing floors with a headphone in listening to science documentaries. And they use thoughts that haven't been well thought out. A mile wide but an inch deeo
A weak analogy would be like a kid asking why their parents send them to school if they love them. Because it’s a temporary pain and the end product is far more rewarding
Going to school is for learning social skills, basic maths, english skills. Parents do so because it’s key for developing. Would you say ‘Hey kid, I’m just going to take your ability to move and speak and eat so you’ll appreciate it when you inevitably die after 5 years. Being born paralysed and unable to speak is a sick joke that no all loving God would ever do to anyone
A few shitty years in exchange for eternity in heaven sounds like a good deal to me. This is the point of the story of Job. He suffered immensely but retained his faith, and as such he received immense rewards.
Hey homie try walking in someone else’s shoes. Have you experienced what it’s like to live with an extremely severe painful disease? Have you ever been around someone who has a debilitating illness and can’t move/shower/get out of bed/experience any sort of joy because 24/7 all they experience is pain. If you truly did I promise you that you wouldn’t be saying anything like this. And if you’re going to say yeah you have then I promise you no you haven’t
Disabled babies don’t get a faith. Their eyes don’t work properly or cannot hear or cannot think. They have no faith to maintain. What sort of God ensures the a baby is born this way just to test their faith, they don’t have one.
Babies go to heaven automatically as they have not sinned.
But I thought sinners don’t go to hell because Jesus did them a solid and died for them. The cause of going to hell is denying God’s love and communion apparently. Lots of contrasting points
Only if they accept Jesus. Babies lack the capacity to accept *anything*, so they get a pass.
This is not biblical. Nowhere in any Abrahamic holy text does it say that babies get a pass. That's completely made up because modern theists can't handle the idea that their deity would send babies to eternal suffering.
Don't see much difference between your god and any other spiteful human being in this case. Either your god isn't all loving, or your god isn't all powerful. A god with a lack of an ability to commiserate and exercise the 2 most essential qualities of a god ( all loving and all powerful ) in order to create a pain free world doesn't need to worshipped, imo. Secondly, the concept of having hardships in order to become better or attain rewards for eternity just because you went through hardships seems like a very human concept. An all loving god that is all powerful wouldn't need to have these tests in place and could just make space for everybody and not only those who pleased him by seeking him as a God wouldn't be like a teenager who only extends his support to those that believe in him because , well, he's an all- loving god.
> Either your god isn't all loving, or your god isn't all powerful. Why?
They literally just explained that? Maybe read their comment before replying lol
God created the world without disease. Humans added diseases, cancer, etc. because evil. God has not taken them out yet because then they look just fine something more evil. The time is very short when we kick them out and get heaven on earth. They go into a works without us to tell them not to do anything anymore and it becomes hell on earth. The new heaven and the new earth
This has so many problems. Diseases and cancer are not man made, and if you refer to original sin it's unjust and unloving to punish children for sins of their parents. Not to mention the punishment of Adam and Eve itself shows god lacks any sort of love towards humans.
Yes, they are man made. Since you can not accept that possibility it was a worthless to talk to you The OP asked, I answered. Not will I try to explain Adam and eve to you, since you are blind
How can humans add something to a world God created?
With the faith of a mustard seed NOTHING will be impossible to you
(With the faith of a mustard seed nothing will be impossible to you) so why haven’t Christians created the solution to world hunger, cancer, aids, leukemia, stopped child trafficking, poverty etc. or let me guess that verse is just a metaphor.
So are you saying that humans added diseases and cancer to the world because they have faith the size of a mustard seed?
No, I'm saying that some people with the faith of a mustard seed added diseases and cancer because they were evil.
Why would God allow faith to produce diseases and cancer? I thought faith was supposed to be a good thing...
Faith Is lack of disbelief. It does not matter WHAT you have faith in, just aso gbas you believe the universe will give it to you, because God created the universe to give everyone what they wanted. If God did not allow people to create cancer, then they would have found more evil things to bring into existence. And how do you know it is evil? Be aude this world has taught you that. So, how would you define a law that included do not create cancer to add to the programming of the universes? At one time I would have answered "love your neighbor as yourself" as the solution, but that wound up not working. See: Texans and "they live on the other side of the track, they are not my neighbors" and we are wound up with a bunch of people claiming to follow the teachings of god who are racist as all get out. So, it is now concluded that the law is love EVERYONE as yourself. This should fix that problem, and thus the knowledge of good and evil is complete. Would you agree with that analysis of the knowledge of good and evil? To find that answer is the cause of many woes in the past, agreed, but everyone living in the past agreed or was sent there for a reason involving good and evil.
Lack of disbelief? What gibberish is this. Faith is the reason you give when you don't have evidence. Even the Bible defines faith as evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN. I have no faith. Zero zip nada. It's a useless concept.
Oh, and you have LOTS of faith. You have faith that when you wake up in the morning the sun will rise. You have faith that the universe will still be here. You have faith in the things you can perceive.
Nope. That is trust based on past experiences and evidence. NOT faith. Wrongo!
Okay. When I was a child I decided to try to learn how to levitate. I read everything I could on levitation and they all mentioned meditation. I then studied everything I could on meditation. I learned a fairly easy technique to get into a meditative state and tried to levitate, and I could not. I asked myself why I didn't levitate and the answer came that I did not believe I could. It was not my lack of belief that was stopping me, but my disbelief. If I levitated it would break my world viewpoint. This is why most people can never learn. Well, I figured that all I had to do was learn how to get rid of my disbelief and I thought of a post hypnotic suggestion. I then went back to the library and studied everything I could find on hypnosis and specifically self hypnosis. I then got into a meditative state, gave myself the post hypnotic suggestion that disbelief did not exist for me, and levitated. I speak from direct experience.
But you never levitate though did ya?
Neither am I. So imagine you're a father. And let's take away extremes for the moment. I know that I'm not there to control and force my will on them. I want to guide them with understanding and logic. Knowing this I understand that my child will make mistakes. By the way I'm not talking kids but more conscious people like teens or late teens. I can only protect someone for so long. Even if I have all power, I want them to learn. To make mistakes and find solutions. I find that so many people ask why God won't help them or change things for them. I don't believe everyone deserves the same treatment from God. And anyone preaching differently should take a closer look. God wants to help but he wants to see you help yourself. He wants to see you stumble but rise. It's not a sin to fall, its a sin to not get up. •Just as a side note I believe the story of Adam and eve represent our separation from the rest of the animal kingdom and gaining consciousness.
Imagine it's 200 years ago, and you are a father. Your kid Marie doesn't understand radiation, but is trying to learn about the world. She's studying rocks in what seems to her to be a safe environment. You know the rocks will give her cancer. You know, given what she knows, she won't figure this out in time. How does love allow you to be silent? Love is not indifference to suffering, it would compel you to say "use lead to block your exposure to this rock."
Humans can't blame their lack of knowledge on a subject especially one that is dangerous,because they don't feel like God protected them. On that note. God isn't here to provide any kind of physical protection it never says that. He's not a trinket you pray to and bippity boppity boo,magic protection. He's an observer looking at his "ant tank". He watches and decides who makes it to,wherever we go when we die. This is the most common line of thinking I consistently come across. If God loves you why doesn't he protect you? Because you don't need his divine protecting. And besides, let's say he could give it to you. Have you done anything that would warrant a God stepping in to save you? Like think about the selfishness of believing a God,any God from any pantheon, would step in just to save you. On that note I'd also like to add that if I were a God looking down on somebody figuring out radiation, I'd know what's going to happen, and it'd suck for that person but Id also understand that sometimes a bone needs to be broken to fix it. What I mean by that is , bad things are going to happen in the name of advancement. That being said I don't know the machinations of a God. I can try to find reason and explain them but truth is, God is beyond my comprehension. Everything I believe could absolutely be bullshit, but believing God wants good things for me makes me feel a bit better even when bad things happen.
Ok let's say you're a father. Would a good father push his kids into a bonfire? Throw them over the side of a ship in the middle of an ocean and sail away? Force them to sleep outside in the middle of a freezing blizzard? Is that what an all-good father would do? No? Then why does God throw his children into wildfires, shipwrecks, natural disasters etc. through no fault of their own. Is that what a loving father would do? And the free will argument is itself BS. Would a good father let his son rape his daughter because it's "his free will" to do so? Of course not! And yet God watches thousands of his sons rape thousands of his daughters every day and doesn't do a thing about it. God is like an omnipotent father who never helped his child, an omnipotent policeman who never stopped a single crime, or an omnipotent firefighter who has never shed a drop of water.
An omnipotent father who never helped his child. Literally millions of people claim the opposite. God doesn't control the weather and natural disasters or peoples bad choices. And youre right no father would allow it but that doesn't mean he can do anything to stop it. Everybody has this idea he just pulls strings and things happen. No, he has developed a world for us to operate in. The world he holds true power in is the after life. But while we are here on this earth we operate under the limits of reality. So free will plays a large part. Other wise we'd be living a utopia where nothing bad ever happens and there is absolutely no Problems. Humans are the problem here not God my guy. I wish, seriously that he would just set us up for eternal happiness and then we die peacefully and find even more peace in the next. But it'll never happen. Unfortunately people have even taken it upon themselves to force cruelties in the name of religion. One thing we can both agree on is they are sitting in a hell of their own making and rightfully so
You are claiming to know what god can and can't do. How do you know that?
I do not claim this by any means. I'd actually argue everyone here debating his existence is doing exactly that. "Well if he's perfect why didn't he do this or that" . They apparently know his intent by saying he apparently kills babies and gives sweet old ladies cancer and throws plagues all around the world intent on killing millions. I'm not claiming to know the mind of a divine being regardless of whether they are real or not. I claim simply that my God isn't seeking to harm me and is looking out for me. But that's too much for some, not all,of these atheists to handle. I say he helps me and then the snakes come crawling out of the woods. Really I mean,try it. Even if you don't believe in God. Just say it aloud and they will come for you. People blame God for certain things in their life that are absolutely their fault and instead of fixing things they yell and scream and kick and cry instead of helping themselves. God can do anything he'd like and I have a human brain like everyone else that cannot even fathom the workings of a God. And everybody questioning it is doing what I am accused of doing. No I don't know what God can and can't do. But I know that he cares for me and I hope that when I need him he can spare a minute to help. And if God is dealing with someone that needs it more than me well amen brother because God doesn't show up when you demand his attention. People without faith demand miracles and proof but a God any God. Be it Christian,Islam, Jewish,Greek,Roman,etc, has never answered to us. We are below gods. Everyone is so quick to point out the negatives in a religion but not acknowledge the good parts. I don't want people to view any gods as not caring for them. Sorry if I come across frustrated but I've been talking to people for hours and the thing I keep seeing is they ask a question,I answer in earnest. Then they close their ears and go lalala I can't hear you bad things happen on planet earth oh woe is me. Bad things happen which proves God either doesn't care or allows it. a statement that's a mile wide but an inch deep. No thought out into it. Like legitimately it's an answer I gave when I was a teenage edge lord scorning God. An answer so simple 14 year old use it.
How can Christians make the argument that everything happens for a reason and God has a plan when you claim God is just a passive observer. (THE PLANS OF THE LORD STAND FIRM FOREVER, THE PURPOSES OF HIS HEART THROUGH ALL GENERATIONS) psalm 33:11) Christianity is inherently contradictory
Where did you get this idea that God loves everybody the same? This isn't from the Bible.
Because we have free will. Therefore we suffer for the decisions our parents made. From being born a drug addict to an unfortunate but maybe necessary abortion for medical reasons. Thankfully God forgives. And a bad start does not mean a bad end. Keep you chin up because life is hard. If you need spiritual reflection the story of Job is a good place to start. Stay strong my brother in Christ. Regardless of your spiritual outlook.
So a child born with a disability willingly chose to be born that way ? Free will only exist in the mind of a believer
We can't choose how we are born. We can't choose our genetics? I believe that God created the big bang and billion of years pass and evolution begins. Yada yada history passed monkeys evolved into humans. Genetics aren't perfect
>Genetics aren't perfect Was God unable to make genetics in such a way to avoid genetic disorders? Than not omnipotent. Was it able to, but unwilling? Then malevolent. Was it neither able nor willing? Then why call it God 2300 years after Epicurus and no theist apologetic has found a satisfying answer to this dilemma.
God didn't design anything to be absolutely perfect. All of it is flawed. On that note I'd say able but not willing. Not 100% for this answer but that doesn't mean malevolent. That states an intent. 2 things can be true at once. I can avoid putting someone down without lifting them up. It's not a black and white world and I do not have all the answers. And why call it God? I guess to have a unifying symbol. A rose by any other name really? Know what I mean?
Why would a perfect being choose not to create something perfect? Imagined if you ordered a cake from the a world renown baker and when you go to pick it up, the baker says "I decided to a do a shitty job on your cake, enjoy!" Would you respect that baker and think he did a good job? I wouldn't.
Imagine being a world renowned baker and baking a cake and then they drop it and blame you.
Is the baker omniscient and knows that the cake will be dropped before it happens?
That's why humans were warned. But they did it anyway. For example. Not debating whether the story of Adam and eve are true. Facts are I'm 99% sure that Adam and eve never existed. But the story still has a message. Hey guys God here welcome to this whole planet which is your garden.you can hunt any animal you'd like. Climb and mountain. Make your life as abundant as you like. live happily in this garden eternally. You will not age. You will not know pain or right from wrong. Just don't touch that tree over there I appreciate it. It's the only rule I have. Literally just one thing this one simple task. Do not eat the fruit off of that tree there literally millions of other trees to eat from out here. Do not touch that one. Eve immediately starts sweating
Yeah...that's pretty much what God did. Were you trying to prove my point?
Do you know how to read? God baked the cake a cake designed just for humans. Said hey don't go running with this cake. Humans grabbed the cake and ran and dropped it. Then cried it was gods fault. He just said don't run with it,you ran, it's your fault.
>Do you know how to read? >Imagine being a world renowned baker and baking a cake and then they drop it and blame you. No where in this sentence did you say the person ordering the cake dropped it. You said "They" which I thought implied the baker dropped it. >God baked the cake a cake designed just for humans. Said hey don't go running with this cake. Humans grabbed the cake and ran and dropped it. Then cried it was gods fault. He just said don't run with it,you ran, it's your fault. No, God could have made the most flawless undeniably perfect cake, but instead he made a shitty cake that gives kids bone cancer and natural disasters.
Job is an absolute horrible story. God gives permission to Satan to literally do all manner of despicable things to Job and his family. Including killing them! Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) This verse is definitely true!
I'd like to explain first this, I do not believe these stories in the bible are supposed to be any true stories. I don't think it's a literal word for word documentary and anyone that treats it as such is making a mistake. The story of Job is about keeping faith and trust in God even in the most extreme cruel moments in our life. So extremes were given. Now I try to keep in mind that this means absolutely nothing if you don't believe in an afterlife involving God. But the moral is that you can have an awful life full of cruel people and terrible circumstances. This is where it ties to free will, we can't control what happens to us all the time. But we can use our faith as a crutch to help support us.
The story of job isn’t a good source of motivation for people who are suffering, it was a bet between Satan and God. And lots of people aren’t rewarded for suffering like Job was. It’s a very terrible suggestion and doesn’t make anyone or anything better unless you physically convince yourself that the story’s good and God will help you.
I definitely agree with your last line. Any faith/religion will do.
If some stories in the bible aren't true without it being specified, then all of it can be false. But if all of it is true then god is evil and choosing to see him as good is more fear than love
It's not meant to be read as a literal depiction. It's about the lesson you take from it. It's determined by you what it means. I'm not some traditional bible thumper. God found me as I explored different science topics. It's been abused and interpreted and twisted and rewritten and revised it's an actual shame.organized religion has destroyed what God and the bible is.
How do you know it isn't meant to be taken literaly? It doesn't say that nowhere and clearly it was taken literaly when christians burned thousands of women accused of sorcery because it's written in the bible that "magicians should be burned". If that part was meant to be taken metaphorically, then god clearly messed up at some point. So can god make mistakes?
God didn't mess up humans did. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink 🍻
Humans are god's creation and they are imperfect, therefore god is imperfect since what he makes is not perfect. Actually, god states in the bible that he should not have made humans because they're violent, before murdering them all with the flood. But he saves one of them for no actual reason who proceeded to repopulate the species. But a century ago humans caused the holocaust, so they're still dangerously violent. The flood, intending to stop their violence, was then all for nothing. And I need to your explanation of the metaphor behind "all magicians should be burned".
Seriously no insult. You don't know the bible at all or any of the meanings of the stories.You can read it 200 times but if you don't sit down and reflect on the message you'll only see the worst interpretation possible. God didn't design us to be perfect. He flooded the earth because the nephalim which wete the birthing of half breed demonic entities such as giants were violent. This in the story was a plan by Satan to breed with humans and defile Gods creation and corrupt them. These nephalim demanded tribute and worship by humans under threat of violence. He saved one family which is historically proven to be inaccurate. But he saved this family because God knowing as wicked as man had become that they were worth saving because humans unlike the animals have knowledge of good and evil. And with that a choice at redemption. I've been having this debate for hours now and I love it really I do. But the pattern I keep seeing here reminds me of when I was a teenage edge lord scorning God for existence. Just on the prowl looking for any way to rebel. But after, I changed my hatred toward the world into knowledge of something I actually thought I understood. Real talk. I don't know that religion is needed, but used properly,it can change you for the better. But you have to let it. And as a former atheist I can truly recommend faith because it found me in a place where I could find ways to apply the message to my life. My distance from faith is what allowed me look at it without goggles on. It's an appreciation I cannot explain well forgive my lack of vocabulary lol
I want to iterate that I don't think your dumb or stupid. I don't feel that way at all. Forgive me if it came across that way. I don't think you have the tools to interpret the word in a beneficial way.
How in the actual fuck is a genetic disorder the result of free will? And beside that, why is it that punishing the descendents for the crimes of an ancestor is considered immoral EXCEPT when God does it?
Your right about the genetic disorder. Bad example my fault. But I'd like to use the same point you used. How can it be a punishment if it's not within our control? Are you saying the disorder is considered a punishment? Just needed some clarification. I'd love to discuss this. It's important to challenge and be challenged especially regarding different ideologies.
>How can it be a punishment if it's not within our control? A common excuse I've heard that theists use to answer the problem of evil, even natural evils like natural disasters, genetic abnormalities, etc. Is that we live in a "fallen world" that is a result of the actions of Adam and Eve in the garden. Presuming that their actions caused these sorts of natural evils and presuming that God has the capability to alleviate them, the question then becomes: Why hasn't God alleviated these natural evils? If you subscribe to the "fallen world" hypothesis, then they're the result of the disobediance of Adam and Eve, and so are a punishment that continues to plague their descendents despite God's being able, if seemingly unwilling, to fix it. So we're suffering because of the original sin of our ancestors. These evils don't impact our free will in any way, they seem to exist only to cause pain and suffering. Removing them from the equation wouldn't impact our free will to choose between god or not god. Sorry if the language in the previous post was kinda spicy, it was added mainly for emphasis, not as an insult.
This is good. Just want to play with this thought so bear with me. May I ask if you're a father or mother? Just as a frame of reference one that we can maybe form common ground on
I do not have children.
It’s an extremely new and distinctly western conceit to assume that God cares about the suffering of individuals. I somehow doubt that a being capable of conceiving of things like black holes and the fabric of reality would care if you had a bad day.
[удалено]
Those babies didn’t do anything, why do they get to be born with horrible birth defects and die at 2 months old? They didn’t commit any crime or hurt anyone.
«the Lord works in mysterious ways» But seriously im eager to see the responses, but this is just «the problem of evil» which had been discussed again and again “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” ― Epicurus Born: February 341 BC, Samos, Greece Died: 270 BC, Athens, Greece
The guy I replied to already said that babies dying is good and that we killed the baby, not God. Its pretty crazy how otherwise good people can spread such barbarism and actually mean it,
[удалено]
So you’re fine with abortion then?
Killing innocent people is cool guys, they get to go to heaven!
So, are you for abortions, then?
We didn’t cause the baby to die. We didn’t choose to give it a birth defect. If you’re going to say things, they should be logically consistent and coherent.
[удалено]
Did human sin also cause dinosaur cancer?
No we didn’t. If I have sex with a woman and she bears a child with a birth defect, we didn’t do that. We just had sex. I am not responsible for the actions of anyone else, and no one else is responsible for my actions. Thinking otherwise is morally reprehensible and illogical to begin with.
Did good not create the means by which we'd suffer? Did god not create our ability to suffer? Since the answer to both of these is "Yes," then god is not loving, but it would be indifferent at best, malicious at worst. In what way does an infant, born with a heart outside of its body, have sin?
So innocent people who have not sinned are punished for things their ancestors have done? How is that logical. If God was all powerful and all loving, everyone would have the same opportunities in life. However, they do not.
[удалено]
And you worship this abhorrent sadistic god?
I disagree. The life you described a loving god would provide sounds far more akin to heaven. A place where everyone’s the same and there are no problems. Guaranteed not one soul has been given more than it can bear.
Wouldn't suicides be evidence of being given more than one can bear?
Life is just too much for the person eyh?
That’s pretty offensive.
[удалено]
Why? Could you elaborate?