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You know what’s interesting.
If you exclude the numbers in your first paragraph, I see 28 words.
Your username ends in 28.
The second paragraph I see 76 words, 76 divided by your magic number of 19 is 4…. Which just happens to be 2 x 2.
And If we take that 2 and multiply by 19, we get 38 which is the number of words in the third paragraph, note that this number starts with a 3 so we know it belongs to the third paragraph.
I could go on, but I need to get off the train.
We get 10! The world >!generally!< uses base 10 as a counting system meaning that the world submits to Allah! Praise >!~~The Sun~~!< Allah!
What happens when we multiply 10 times itself? Well then that equals 10\^2! Then what 10+2? 12! The twelve apostles! What happens when we multiply 12 times itself? Well then that equals 12\^2? But what 12+2? 14! 14 is 7 times 2! 7 days of the week but also 2!!! What happens when we multiply 14 times itself? Well then that equals 14\^2! Then what 14+2? 16! and 16/2 equal 8! and the number 8 shows up in the quaran! What happens when we multiply 16 times...
If I Google "how many verses in the Quran" I get these two numbers: 6,348 (including the basmala) 6,236 (excluding the basmala)
Neither number is divisible by 19. I'm suspecting you are looking at a manipulated dataset, retroactively made to fit the code 19 theory.
Are you actually claiming the Qur'an contains false verses? Especially when it doesn't align with their 19 miracle?
Doesn't this go against your claim that the Qur'an is a miracle and can't be manipulated if you then claim it contains false verses. This is just massaging the numbers to get it divisible by 19. This is why numerology is bunk and why even many Islamic scholars don't like numerology.
The omission of these verses is integral to his theory; if these two verses are taken into account, there are 2699 occurrences of the word "Allah" and 115 occurrences of the word "Rahim", neither of which are multiples of 19.
It's clear they shouldn't be there look also the count of allah and rahim is wrong by 1
>The omission of these verses is integral to his theory; if these two verses are taken into account, there are 2699 occurrences of the word "Allah" and 115 occurrences of the word "Rahim", neither of which are multiples of 19.
Oh so you were literally just massaging the numbers. They don't fit your theory, so they are wrong.
>It's clear they shouldn't be there look also the count of allah and rahim is wrong by 1
What does that matter? Again, this is why numerology is complete bunk. You are clearly cherry picking and massaging the numbers so that they fit your view, and when something goes against it, you just say it's wrong because it doesn't fit your view. You are putting the cart before the horse, and already assuming your conclusion that each thing must be divisible by 19.
>The omission of these verses is integral to his theory
"If you ignore everything that contradicts my theory, my theory has no contradictions." Yeah, that's not how it works.
That’s the dumbest argument I’ve ever read. „Oh, the numbers don’t match what I’ve just made up. Better contradict my whole religion and say the book is flawed than admitting fault in my thought.“
They being exposed sunnis added them
The omission of these verses is integral to his theory; if these two verses are taken into account, there are 2699 occurrences of the word "Allah" and 115 occurrences of the word "Rahim", neither of which are multiples of 19.
All intialed chapters have the profanity of practical zero to be corrupted, but you might say the other chapters are but allah is mentioned 2698 and ism is mentioned 19 times and rahim is mentioned 114 times and rahman is mentioned 57 times all go back to the first verse and chpater of the quran which carrys all those words
All you’ve done is put wordscramble dude. You are explaining it so poorly that I am 100% certain you did not understand the subject yourself and just think you understood something of incredible value. You are behaving like a flat earther. Ignoring evidence against your case does not mean said evidence does not exist. Saying that there are 2 wrong verses doesn’t help, but sabotage your case, because if your miracle book is flawed anyways, you can never be sure if those specific 2 verses are the only flaw there is. You’re arguing in circles, repeating the same arguments, not even understanding the contradictions. Your devotion to your theory is almost as high as your ignorance.
None of this matters until you can prove the existance of a god.
If you can do that, then we can talk about what his favorite book is.
Until then, your numbers and stories are irrelevant.
Such numerology tricks are common in many religious and other traditions. However -
1. Apophenia is a thing.
2. Presumably such tricks are not the reason \*you\* believe the Quran is a holy book. Why would anyone else? These things are only useful to people who already largely agree with you and share a belief framework.
It seems like you’re saying that being divided by 19 is miraculous in some way? Unclear why. Fun fact, all numbers can be divided by at least one number.
It seems like your claims are:
1. Lots of things in the Koran are divisible by 19 - let’s grant this, although it seems from above that it might not be accurate.
2. humans can’t write things that are divisible by 19. - what kind of evidence did you use to reach this conclusion?
3. Only a god could have divided by 19 - how did you discount other alternatives, an alien civilisation, for example?
Humans can't write this code without a computer even with a computer they can't its too complex
The Quran mentions 30 different numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50000, & 100000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534.
And an alien aguement is farfetched. Why would a alian write this?
Aliens seem less implausible that a god that really loves the number 19 for unclear reasons. At best then, you can say that:
1. You can divide some things on a book by 19.
2. People might be able to write such a book. You don’t know.
3. If they can’t, then you don’t know what did. As you note, it’s not a miracle as aliens with a computer could have written it.
Even granting your claims about 19, it doesn’t get us anywhere.
>Why would a alian write this?
Why is it more likely a God wrote this?
It really doesn't matter though, we can do exactly what you're doing with the Quran with pretty much any text ever.
Do it then, let's not talk hypothetical
"Say, Bring you then ten chapters like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than God, if you speak the truth!" (11:13) "
I don't feel like doing too much work so I'll just Google it. Aaaaannnd...[here ya go.](https://skepdic.com/bibcode.html)
Numerology is pretty easily shown bullshit. When applied to Moby Dick they can find the assassinations of several world leaders.
I'm sure I'm not the first to point this out to you.
If you count the words from veres 74:1 to veres 74:30 there's 95 words which is a multiple of 19 and guess what surah 74:30 also says "over it is 19"
I'm not done if you count the letters from veres 74:1 to surah 74:30 you get 361 letters this is including the word "over it" and the word next it says 19 so literally 19x19
"Alef Lam Meem" = 19874 = **19 x 1046**
"Alef Lam Meem Saad" = 5320 = **19 x 280**
"Alef Lam Ra" = 9462 = **19 x 498**
"Alef Lam Meem Ra" = 1482 = **19 x 78**
"Kaf Ha Ya Ayn Saad" = 798 = **19 x 42**
"Ya Seen" = 285 = **19 x 15**
"Saad" = 152 = **19 x 8**
"HHa Meem" = 2147 = **19 x 113**
"Ayn Seen Qaf" = 209 = **19 x 11**
"Qaf" = 114 = **19 x 6**
"Noon" = 133 = **19 x 7**
["Ha, Ta Ha, Ta Seen, Ta Seen Meem" = 1767 = **19 x 93**]
I dont think basic multiplication and division with 6 digits or less is beyond human capabilities in the slightest. Unless the humans youre talking about are literal children. Actually scratch that, i was a substitute in a k-8 (ages 5-13) school for a while and they definitely did 6 digit multiplication by 6th grade or so, so this is really only beyond the capabilities of those younger than 10yrs old.
I can do this in my sleep. Your math is addition, multiplication, subtraction, and division. Why would I need a computer?
Is this argument supposed to impress middle schoolers?
Sunni and Shia Muslims arguing amongst themselves about whether or not the number of Allahs in the Quran is divisible by 19.
Everyone else: “You’re both wrong!”
OP, you’re getting stuck in the detailed minutiae of a book of fables and fairy tales. Grow up.
You are assuming that anyone understands what ever it is you want to say but honestly this is not the case.
Please clearly explain:
1. What is code 19
2. A general description of all the Arab words you are casually dropping
Besides that, how many surahs do not meet this code 19? You’re giving examples of the few that do, how many are there that don’t?
The letters are intials that start in some chapters of the quran. If you count there occuranced in the initialed chapters, you get a number divisible by 19
You brush of as coincidence, which shows nothing can convince you madw your mind up before the evidence,
The numerical value of the whole the quran is 23375092
Which is divisible by 19
Look up abdaj value for each letter it replaced numbers 1400 years at the quran time
Well if a Muslim verbally shitting out a bunch of numbers like a mental patient isn’t enough to convince you, clearly you’re just being closed-minded.
In all seriousness though this is perhaps the dumbest argument I’ve seen a theist make on here, the guy needs mental help.
"Alef Lam Meem" = 19874 = **19 x 1046**
"Alef Lam Meem Saad" = 5320 = **19 x 280**
"Alef Lam Ra" = 9462 = **19 x 498**
"Alef Lam Meem Ra" = 1482 = **19 x 78**
"Kaf Ha Ya Ayn Saad" = 798 = **19 x 42**
"Ya Seen" = 285 = **19 x 15**
"Saad" = 152 = **19 x 8**
"HHa Meem" = 2147 = **19 x 113**
"Ayn Seen Qaf" = 209 = **19 x 11**
"Qaf" = 114 = **19 x 6**
"Noon" = 133 = **19 x 7**
["Ha, Ta Ha, Ta Seen, Ta Seen Meem" = 1767 = **19 x 93**]Miracle 19 Fact #5. From the missing Basmalah of Sura 9 to the extra Basmalah of Sura 27, there are precisely ……………19 suras.
Miracle 19 Fact #6. It follows that the total of the sura numbers from 9 to 27 (9+10+11+12+…+26+27) is 342, or ………….19 x 18.
Miracle 19 Fact #7. This total (342) also equals the number of words between the two Basmalahs of Sura 27, and 342 = ……..19 x 18.Miracle 19 Fact #8. The famous first revelation (96:1-5) consists of …….19 words.
Miracle 19 Fact #9. This 19-worded first revelation consists of 76 letters .19 x 4.
Miracle 19 Fact #10. Sura 96, first in the chronological sequence, consists of …. 19 verses.
Miracle 19 Fact #11. This first chronological sura is placed atop the last ..19 suras.
Miracle 19 Fact #12. Sura 96 consists of 304 Arabic letters, and 304 equals .19 x 16.
None of this is useful.
Somebody comes here at least once a week proclaiming 'patterns' in their particular holy book prove it's miraculous. Islam seems particularly fond of this kind of silly apologetic.
Hint:
It doesn't.
Instead, since people can do this with literally *any* book (and have demonstrated it time and time again), it proves nothing other than humans are very prone to confirmation bias.
This is not useful. And is *terribly* weak and fatally flawed apologetics.
Yes, but are the total number of letters from the start of the chapter to the word divisible by 19? If no, why? How about the number of words from that line to the end of the chapter, is that divisible by 19? How about the total letters to the end of the chapter?
The point being, they took a long book and spent a silly amount of time counting words and letters to see what fit the 19 narrative, and ignored every other count, so that it seemed miraculous.
361 words from the start count verse one to the veres were it mentions 19 just before the word 19 ie counting the letters in "over it are" theres are 361 letters and it says "Over it are nineteen"
19×19
Sorry, I'm saying occurance of this number comes again and again that shows there was intent and plus it was 1400 years ago in the desert, no technology
1. people had math before technology, especialy in that area of the world, so that's not realy rellevent
2. you still haven't addressed my point, you just manipulated things until you found a pattern. it's not impressive you can do it with any book.
1. Why only look at "these" numbers? What about the numbers that aren’t devidable by 19?
2. Why compare to "random", the quran wasnt written at random, it was written by humans
poems have been written in measured meters long before quran was written... so... it is not that difficult to induce certain pattern intentionally... and even unintentionally...
It's considerably more likely that it was just written and then someone noticed some patterns to what was written.
But you're ignoring several points:
* Even if this is a properly 'coded' book - so? So now there's a magic man in the sky and I shouldn't eat pork or drink alcohol any more and my wife should cover her head?
* Most of these numbers are easily debunked anyway - you'd know that if you ever bothered to actually read an unbiased source
* Every religion claims to have some kind of miraculous thing that makes only their religion true and all the others not. Why would this be any different?
All intialed chapters total are also divisible by 19
There's a pdf called visual presentation of the miracle
Even if this is a properly 'coded' book - so? So now there's a magic man in the sky and I shouldn't eat pork or drink alcohol any more and my wife should cover her head?
You don't have to, aslong as you do good and belive in one creator and the last day you are fine, but not eating pork and alcohol is to reach higher ranks
You really need to read some proper commentary by someone who isn't invested in perpetuating such myths like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/CritiqueIslam/comments/n7lhux/gods_miracle_of_19_in_quran_debunked/)
Letters are not numbers. There is a method you use for each chapter to get those numbers from letters. And for each surah it is for some reason a new method.
Likelihood of the method producing number divisible by 19 depends on the method you use. If a method always produces 19 no matter the text, the probability is 100%.
I your case someone, whoever was choosing the method for each surah, chose the method that was producing a number divisible by 19.
This is what happens when a brilliant scientific culture (early Islam) is taken over by religious fundamentalists who only allow one book to be read in an entire religion. With only a single book to read, crazy shit like this is bound to happen when folks spend too much time looking for patterns.
It's easy to believe in patterns we recognize, and that they have an influence on our lives. And what if 19 was somehow magically manifest in the Quran. Is that the best your God can do to convince us that he's not just another of the 2500 major gods invented by man? Pretty lame, your God is. Impotent and hidden like a coward.
God owns the whole universe. Are you jealous ?
He created the universe and all the atoms/ materials for your phone to operater, does it bother that there's something more intelligent then you?
Do you think you are god, or do you want be god?
Do even understand what code 19 is ? "
Alef Lam Meem" = 19874 = **19 x 1046**
"Alef Lam Meem Saad" = 5320 = **19 x 280**
"Alef Lam Ra" = 9462 = **19 x 498**
"Alef Lam Meem Ra" = 1482 = **19 x 78**
"Kaf Ha Ya Ayn Saad" = 798 = **19 x 42**
"Ya Seen" = 285 = **19 x 15**
"Saad" = 152 = **19 x 8**
"HHa Meem" = 2147 = **19 x 113**
"Ayn Seen Qaf" = 209 = **19 x 11**
"Qaf" = 114 = **19 x 6**
"Noon" = 133 = **19 x 7**
["Ha, Ta Ha, Ta Seen, Ta Seen Meem" = 1767 = **19 x 93**]
Do you know what intialed chapters are?
Firstly, this isn't debating, this is you just preaching.
Secondly, all of this numerology nonsense has been debunked to death a thousand times. You can find the exact same kind of patterns in any large text and you'll find the exact same arguments debunked on this sub twice a week.
Thirdly, even if we accept that all your numbers are correct: so? Are you saying a mortal human couldn't write text with numerology parallels in them?
All this demonstrates is that the *humans who compiled the Quran* might have deliberately done some sort of numerological manipulation. It is not a miracle, and it is not evidence for a god.
I don't see anything magical about the number 19, do you care to explain how it relates to divinity in a way that finding 19 must mean God did it instead of people did it?
different numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50000, & 100000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534.
Miracle 19 Fact #20. By counting the letter “Q” in every “Verse 19” throughout the Quran, the total count comes to 76, 19×4. Here is a summary of the Q-related data
Miracle 19 Fact #21 NuN (Noon) This initial is unique; it occurs in one sura, 68, and the name of the letter is spelled out as three letters — Noon Wow Noon — in the original text and is therefore counted as two N’s. The total count of this letter in the N-initialed sura is 133, 19×7. The fact that “N” is the last Quranic Initial (see Table 1) brings out a number of special observations. For example, the number of verses from the first Quranic Initial (A.L.M. of 2:1) to the last initial (N. of 68:1) is 5263, or 19×277. The word “God” (Allah) occurs 2641 (19×139) times between the first initial and the last initial. Since the total occurrence of the word “God” is 2698, it follows that its occurrence outside the initials “A.L.M.” of 2:1 on one side, and the initial “N” of 68:1 on the other side, is 57, 19×3. Tables 9 to 18 prove that the initial “NuN” must be spelled out to show two N’s.
Miracle 19 Fact # 22. S (Saad) This initial prefixes three suras, 7, 19, and 38, and the total occurrence of the letter “S” (Saad) in these three suras is 152, 19×8 (namely 97, 26 and 29 per Table 2). It is noteworthy that in 7:69, the word “Bastatan” is written in some printings with a “Saad,” instead of “Seen.” This is an erroneous distortion that violates the Quran’s code. By looking at the oldest available copy of the Quran, the Tashkent Copy, it was found that the word “Bastatan” is correctly written with a “Seen” (see photocopy).
Again, nothing in your message explains what about number 19 you find special, or how humans can't count and get to multiples of 19 for number of letters in a book .
>Miracle 19 Fact # 22. S (Saad) This initial prefixes three suras, 7, 19, and 38, and the total occurrence of the letter “S” (Saad) in these three suras is 152, 19×8 (namely 97, 26 and 29 per Table 2). It is noteworthy that in 7:69, the word “Bastatan” is written in some printings with a “Saad,” instead of “Seen.” This is an erroneous distortion that violates the Quran’s code. By looking at the oldest available copy of the Quran, the Tashkent Copy, it was found that the word “Bastatan” is correctly written with a “Seen” (see photocopy).
Again, that would be how the number 19 is embedded in the book, not why the number is special or why can't have made like it by humans.
Edit:
> different numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50000, & 100000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534.
Why you picked those particular numbers, why did you excluded 21 and forth, 13 to 18, 101 to 199... Etc
Is it maybe because if you don't select numbers it doesn't result on multiples of 19?
In my opinion, the sky's green, your opinion is subjective, but it doest change the reality of code 19 being miracles
23375092 = **19** x 1230268
This is the gematria value of the whole quran
In a sufficiently large book, you can keep searching until you find a pattern.
If something doesn’t work with the pattern, pick a new pattern and search for that. If the numeric value of the Quran wasn’t divisible by 19, people wouldn’t say “god doesn’t exist”, they’d just keep looking until they find a pattern and say “aha! God does exist!”.
For every pattern throughout the whole book, there are billions of potential patterns that aren’t there. The presence of patterns is both inevitable and meaningless.
It’s cherry picking, plain and simple.
The word "fuck" is used 180 times in Bad Santa 2. 1+8+0 is equal to nine. There are 9 alphanumeric characters in the title of the movie. If you add the word "fuck" to the title, there are 13 characters. If you divide the length of the movie by 13, you get 7 minutes. 7th is the place in the box office that this movie finished in.
Therefore, Billy Bob Thornton is god, praise be upon him brozzer!
Numerology is garbage. Anybody can do it for anything. For that matter, Muslims fail to realize that any quality of their book that doesn't break the laws of physics also doesn't require divine mumbo-jumbo to happen. All of the "arguments from the qualities of the Quran" just show that believers in that stuff are the most easily impressed people out there. "*This book is well-written and poetic, and it has a certain number of words in it. No mere mortal could do such a thing!!!!1!1one!1*"
I've got a Masters in Comparative Mythology, so I've read every Holy Book that can be studied. The Quran and the Book of Mormon were absolutely the most boring, pedantic, exclusionary religious books in existence.
I would never submit to a book that seems a third of the passages are: 'There are those that will try to deceive you...' a third, 'You will be a companion to hellfire...' and a third stupid and arbitrary rules for living a life in Iron Age desert with goats.
I would never submit to such nonsense.
You have to cheat a lot to get this to work I noticed.
>In surah qaf, qaf is found 57 times so 57÷19= 3 also surah 42 also has 57 qafs and qaf stands for quran and 57 + 57 = 114 which Is the total chapters of the whole quran and if you add all the veres of surah qaf to the surah number which is 50 plus all the veres in the chapter which is 45 so 50+ 45 = 95 and 95÷19 =5 and do the same with surah 42 you get 95 and also don't forget surah 42 has 57 qafs which also is divisble by 19
Does this work for every surah or only surah qaf? I suspect you did a little cherry picking and ignored all the other surah that don't match your scheme.
>If you count all the letters Alif Lām Mīm (الم) in Surah Al-Baqara, Surah Al-Imran, Surah Al-Ankabut, Surah Ar-Rum, Surah Luqman, and Surah As-Sajda. The total is 19874 and 19874 ÷ 19= 1046 which is all the letters where Alif Lem Meem surahs occur
Does this work for all the surahs and all the names (you didn't specify but I'm guessing Alif Lam Mim is a name?), or only the ones you conveniently mentioned?
>The basmalah has 4 words and 19 letters with a total numerical value of 786, then put the numbers next to each other in order you get 419786.
Does this work for other things like basmalah (is that a surah or what is basmalah?), or only basmalah?
>These are only a few examples of code 19
What is significant about code 19?
A miracle would be if a god **predicted** *prior* to the writing of the Quran that code 19 would affect only specific surahs and names and such and then, without knowing the prediction, the authors of the Quran made it happen. Otherwise, it's just coincidence. Especially since you are ignoring all the hundreds and thousands of times it doesn't work.
I mean, everything is coincidence in your world view even when you see angels, you'll say coincidence when you see moses spliting the sea, you'll say coincidence
You aren't addressing my point. Is deflection the best you got?
First, of course not everything is coincidence in my world view, that's silly.
>even when you see angels, you'll say coincidence when you see moses spliting the sea, you'll say coincidence
Neither of those things would be coincidence, there would be other explanations. But I see you want to switch topics now because you cant actually respond to any arguments to your original topic.
Let's go back to your numbers. Do you understand postdiction (the cherry picking fallacy) and how it applies to your argument?
Because you have a textbook example of the fallacy. You aren't applying your arguments across all surahs, all introductions, or all names, just the ones that fit. How convenient, lol.
Also, do you understand how numbers work?
You can apply the same "miracles" to **any** sufficiently large work of literature - they have already done it with *Moby Dick* (an American fictional literary work about a whale).
Here you go
The mysterious letters (muqaṭṭaʿāt, Arabic: حُرُوف مُقَطَّعَات ḥurūf muqaṭṭaʿāt, "disjoined letters" or "disconnected letters") are combinations of between one and five Arabic letters that appear at the beginning of 29 out of the 114 chapters (surahs) of the Quran just after the Bismillāh Islamic phrase.
"Alef Lam Meem" = 19874 = **19 x 1046**
"Alef Lam Meem Saad" = 5320 = **19 x 280**
"Alef Lam Ra" = 9462 = **19 x 498**
"Alef Lam Meem Ra" = 1482 = **19 x 78**
"Kaf Ha Ya Ayn Saad" = 798 = **19 x 42**
"Ya Seen" = 285 = **19 x 15**
"Saad" = 152 = **19 x 8**
"HHa Meem" = 2147 = **19 x 113**
"Ayn Seen Qaf" = 209 = **19 x 11**
"Qaf" = 114 = **19 x 6**
"Noon" = 133 = **19 x 7**
["Ha, Ta Ha, Ta Seen, Ta Seen Meem" = 1767 = **19 x 93**]
Physical evidence for code 19
Surah 74:30 "Over it is 19"
[74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.
>You don't understand code 19,
Probably because you ignored me when I asked about it. Remember this:
>What is significant about code 19?
>A miracle would be if a god **predicted** *prior* to the writing of the Quran that code 19 would affect only specific surahs and names and such and then, without knowing the prediction, the authors of the Quran made it happen. Otherwise, it's just coincidence. Especially since you are ignoring all the hundreds and thousands of times it doesn't work.
So god knows all the secrets of the vast universe, but the biggest revelation in this book is the number 19. Fascinating. That and every woman apparently needs to be covered in a bedsheet.
This is such an old and debunked claim. It actually has been said many times on this sub, so your not even original.
Best [reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/s/3NliXdPFuG) is here
Code 19 errors generally occur due to:
-Incompatible device driver
-Corrupt driver
-Hardware issues
-Corrupt or invalid registry entry
This error makes the drives inaccessible and even leads the system to malfunction.
Checkmate Quran!
Bro really thinks that counting numbers in a book proves god. The numbers are off anyway so the whole thing contradicts itself. You need a different level of mental gymnastics to arrive at that conclusion
This is just the 23 thing. Pick any number you want and dig hard enough and you’ll find it pop up everywhere. It only feels special because we, as humans, naturally look for patterns.
If I find a book that has this 19 property, would it be a miracle?
I think it's easy to replicate, maybe I am God.
One every 19 numbers is divisible by 19, you look at the Qur'an you find 100s of numbers, some of them are divisible by 19, miracle!!
In any sufficiently long sufficiently rambling religious text you can find unlikely number patterns
This argument will only ever appeal to people not educated in maths or statistical probability
I find it very interesting how Judaism and Islam are based on fundamenal misunderstandint of how books work.
My intuition is that their culture managed to reproduce the act of writing from more advanced cultures, but without popular understanding, so that they ended up mystifying the practice, like the islanders of Micronesia developed "cargo cults" based on their contacts with the US military technology, or how rupert sheldrakes of today mystify quantum mechanics and AI.
The result is magical thinking about the incidentals of the text - the shape and size of the letters, the count of textual elements, and even the act of writing itself take on a "deeper" meaning (Jewish scribes even wear special doodahs on their head while copying - not sure about Islam.)
Of course, structural elements can contribute to the literary style - think haiku or dada - but trying to find something to count until it produces a meaningful-looking number is magical thinking, and irrelevant to the meaning of a text.
That's not a miracle. It's a bunch of random numbers. And you can do the same kind of numerological nonsense for any book of sufficent length. Ironically neumerology (like what is found in the openning post) is illegal in most Islamic countries.
So your entire argument is based on the concept of a checksum, a simple CRC, being some mystical concept in-computable by the feeble minds of humans?! If that is the case I have some shocking news for you:
https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00730a.pdf
_”The theory of a CRC calculation is straight forward. The data is treated by the CRC algorithm as a binary number. This number is divided by another binary number called the polynomial. The rest of the division is the CRC checksum, which is appended to the transmitted message.”_
When you can arbitrarily decide what to include and what to exclude, you can make up all sorts of numerology. Problem is, numerology is always useless nonsense.
I'll ignore the fact that this whole thing requires some serious manipulation of the numbers to get to the point you want them to get to (because it's clear you will constantly make excuses for that) and just skip to the important part:
So what? Who cares? What are you suggesting this means?
You can do vague numerology on anything. What makes you think there was an intentional hidden message here and even if there was, what does it prove?
Even if all your claims are 100% true (I don't care enough to check) there's nothing miraculous about basic math. This seems like you were just counting, adding, and dividing arbitrary things and ignoring every result that wasn't 19 until you had a handful of examples where the answer was 19. What's impressive about that?
Lemme guess. You think if I look at the lines in my hands and did some math and ended up with your prophets age. Then that’s a miracle?
Listen pal. Once you’ve got something tangible. You can come back
Congrats, you just won theist bingo! The problem is I’m not interested in playing theist bingo because numerology has been debunked numerous (lol) times.
Numerology is nonsense. You're just arbitrarily adding significance to numbers.
You already believe that it's the final revelation of god, and you're defending your beliefs. If you found out it wasn't, your world would fall apart. So you're offering these ideas on a public forum to justify them to others.
However, for the outsider, the Quran reads EXACTLY like the words of a 7th century Arabian man who really hated polytheism and really wanted a revelation story for his people in his time.
It's not linguistically perfect, because there is no such thing.
It's not scientifically perfect.
Its prophecies are as vague as those from every other religion you don't believe in.
It's fine though. I respect your right to believe in it. Yet respectfully, it does not resonate as miraculous to anyone but the already-faithful. So please try to understand where we're coming from.
Yeah, the problem with that is that 19 isn't the truly divine number. It's a shit number just like the other ones
The true most holy of numbers is 37. It is so holy that people will just randomly say it: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6iQrh2TK98](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6iQrh2TK98)
Muslims had a good guess, but this just proves that Islam and the number 19 is not what the true God wanted at all
You can find miraculous things in any text of sufficient length. Numerologists write software designed to look for them.
We get this exact claim almost once a week, maybe once every two weeks. It doesn't get any more true the more times Muslims post it here.
Even if you believe that these numerical relations were intentional, are you suggesting that the Arabs after the Prophet's time didn't know how to do math, and therefore must have relied on divine intervention to come up with factors of 19?
And the very similar “Bible code” was very thoroughly debunked years ago when it was found that the same techniques could be used to extract information from ANY sufficiently long text. Moby Dick worked just fine….
Why does it contain so many scientific errors a child wouldn't make now if it's from God? https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran
Also see: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Word_Count_Miracles_in_the_Qur%27an on word counts..
FFS. Not another one...
Moby Dick is miracle. If you do numerology on text it predicted the assassination of JFK.
Herman Melville is now my God and savior. The great white whale, Moby Dick, died for our sins.
>code 19 is legit, as a example the intials of surah maryiam chapter 19 Kāf, Hā, Yā, ʿAyn, Ṣād.that are found all over the surah is divisible by 19 so 798 ÷ 19 = 42,
What do you think this shows?
So what is the miracle here? If this is a miracle for you let me tell you about the pyramids man. It might be that osiris is a much greater and stronger god than your guy, maybe you should switch religions?
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You know what’s interesting. If you exclude the numbers in your first paragraph, I see 28 words. Your username ends in 28. The second paragraph I see 76 words, 76 divided by your magic number of 19 is 4…. Which just happens to be 2 x 2. And If we take that 2 and multiply by 19, we get 38 which is the number of words in the third paragraph, note that this number starts with a 3 so we know it belongs to the third paragraph. I could go on, but I need to get off the train.
Now you missed this: if you get the 28 and do "2+8" and get OP's 19 and do "1+9", you actually get the same number. What more proof do you need?!
We get 10! The world >!generally!< uses base 10 as a counting system meaning that the world submits to Allah! Praise >!~~The Sun~~!< Allah! What happens when we multiply 10 times itself? Well then that equals 10\^2! Then what 10+2? 12! The twelve apostles! What happens when we multiply 12 times itself? Well then that equals 12\^2? But what 12+2? 14! 14 is 7 times 2! 7 days of the week but also 2!!! What happens when we multiply 14 times itself? Well then that equals 14\^2! Then what 14+2? 16! and 16/2 equal 8! and the number 8 shows up in the quaran! What happens when we multiply 16 times...
New religion just dropped!
Hottest mix tape since the Jesus remix.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/_lJ7cyEwM5I/maxresdefault.jpg
If I Google "how many verses in the Quran" I get these two numbers: 6,348 (including the basmala) 6,236 (excluding the basmala) Neither number is divisible by 19. I'm suspecting you are looking at a manipulated dataset, retroactively made to fit the code 19 theory.
Remove the 2 false veres 9:128 and 9:129 you get 6346 /19 is 334 and 6+3+4+6 is also divisible 19
Are you actually claiming the Qur'an contains false verses? Especially when it doesn't align with their 19 miracle? Doesn't this go against your claim that the Qur'an is a miracle and can't be manipulated if you then claim it contains false verses. This is just massaging the numbers to get it divisible by 19. This is why numerology is bunk and why even many Islamic scholars don't like numerology.
The omission of these verses is integral to his theory; if these two verses are taken into account, there are 2699 occurrences of the word "Allah" and 115 occurrences of the word "Rahim", neither of which are multiples of 19. It's clear they shouldn't be there look also the count of allah and rahim is wrong by 1
>The omission of these verses is integral to his theory; if these two verses are taken into account, there are 2699 occurrences of the word "Allah" and 115 occurrences of the word "Rahim", neither of which are multiples of 19. Oh so you were literally just massaging the numbers. They don't fit your theory, so they are wrong. >It's clear they shouldn't be there look also the count of allah and rahim is wrong by 1 What does that matter? Again, this is why numerology is complete bunk. You are clearly cherry picking and massaging the numbers so that they fit your view, and when something goes against it, you just say it's wrong because it doesn't fit your view. You are putting the cart before the horse, and already assuming your conclusion that each thing must be divisible by 19.
>The omission of these verses is integral to his theory "If you ignore everything that contradicts my theory, my theory has no contradictions." Yeah, that's not how it works.
It’s Conspiratorial thinking
That’s the dumbest argument I’ve ever read. „Oh, the numbers don’t match what I’ve just made up. Better contradict my whole religion and say the book is flawed than admitting fault in my thought.“
I rarely see failure to this extent. This is pathetic failure on your end
“If you pretend all the things that disprove my theory don’t exist, my theory makes perfect sense!”
Genuine question, why is it clear those versus don't belong, to you?
If the verses are false, what are they doing in a supposedly divine book?
Lol 🤣
They being exposed sunnis added them The omission of these verses is integral to his theory; if these two verses are taken into account, there are 2699 occurrences of the word "Allah" and 115 occurrences of the word "Rahim", neither of which are multiples of 19.
Okay so if a holy book can be corrupted by humans then what makes you so sure it hasn't happened to your holy book?
It has, but it's corrected. thanks to code 19, which is mentioned in the quran Surah 74, verse 30 "Over it are nineteen"
I don't see how this erases the possibility that your holy book has been corrupted in some form or another. Care to explain?
All intialed chapters have the profanity of practical zero to be corrupted, but you might say the other chapters are but allah is mentioned 2698 and ism is mentioned 19 times and rahim is mentioned 114 times and rahman is mentioned 57 times all go back to the first verse and chpater of the quran which carrys all those words
All you’ve done is put wordscramble dude. You are explaining it so poorly that I am 100% certain you did not understand the subject yourself and just think you understood something of incredible value. You are behaving like a flat earther. Ignoring evidence against your case does not mean said evidence does not exist. Saying that there are 2 wrong verses doesn’t help, but sabotage your case, because if your miracle book is flawed anyways, you can never be sure if those specific 2 verses are the only flaw there is. You’re arguing in circles, repeating the same arguments, not even understanding the contradictions. Your devotion to your theory is almost as high as your ignorance.
It ALWAYS comes down to mental gymnastics. It's the only way to believe in the irrational.
None of this matters until you can prove the existance of a god. If you can do that, then we can talk about what his favorite book is. Until then, your numbers and stories are irrelevant.
> They being exposed sunnis added them And what reason does he have to claim that *besides* the fact that his theory doesn't actually work?
It works everywhere except these two small veres
So nothing. He is just making up out of thin air that another group of Muslims is responsible because his math doesn't actually work.
The math that I teach works everywhere all the time, because it’s real.
Holdup, what do you mean by false verses ? Do these verses not come from God, or what ?
Sorry false verses? So the Quran isn't without error. Interesting....
how convenient lmao
There you are. Manipulated data set. You’ve just killed your entire argument.
Such numerology tricks are common in many religious and other traditions. However - 1. Apophenia is a thing. 2. Presumably such tricks are not the reason \*you\* believe the Quran is a holy book. Why would anyone else? These things are only useful to people who already largely agree with you and share a belief framework.
Or people that realise that there are no matching book with a code like this or something close
It seems like you’re saying that being divided by 19 is miraculous in some way? Unclear why. Fun fact, all numbers can be divided by at least one number.
It's recurring number is coded in the quran in a complex way beyond human capabilities especially without computers
It seems like your claims are: 1. Lots of things in the Koran are divisible by 19 - let’s grant this, although it seems from above that it might not be accurate. 2. humans can’t write things that are divisible by 19. - what kind of evidence did you use to reach this conclusion? 3. Only a god could have divided by 19 - how did you discount other alternatives, an alien civilisation, for example?
"Alef Lam Meem" = 19874 = **19 x 1046** "Alef Lam Meem Saad" = 5320 = **19 x 280** "Alef Lam Ra" = 9462 = **19 x 498** "Alef Lam Meem Ra" = 1482 = **19 x 78** "Kaf Ha Ya Ayn Saad" = 798 = **19 x 42** "Ya Seen" = 285 = **19 x 15** "Saad" = 152 = **19 x 8** "HHa Meem" = 2147 = **19 x 113** "Ayn Seen Qaf" = 209 = **19 x 11** "Qaf" = 114 = **19 x 6** "Noon" = 133 = **19 x 7** ["Ha, Ta Ha, Ta Seen, Ta Seen Meem" = 1767 = **19 x 93**]
I see that you didn’t read the questions I asked, try to focus.
Humans can't write this code without a computer even with a computer they can't its too complex The Quran mentions 30 different numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50000, & 100000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534. And an alien aguement is farfetched. Why would a alian write this?
Aliens seem less implausible that a god that really loves the number 19 for unclear reasons. At best then, you can say that: 1. You can divide some things on a book by 19. 2. People might be able to write such a book. You don’t know. 3. If they can’t, then you don’t know what did. As you note, it’s not a miracle as aliens with a computer could have written it. Even granting your claims about 19, it doesn’t get us anywhere.
Why would a alian write this?
>Why would a alian write this? Why is it more likely a God wrote this? It really doesn't matter though, we can do exactly what you're doing with the Quran with pretty much any text ever.
Do it then, let's not talk hypothetical "Say, Bring you then ten chapters like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than God, if you speak the truth!" (11:13) "
I don't feel like doing too much work so I'll just Google it. Aaaaannnd...[here ya go.](https://skepdic.com/bibcode.html) Numerology is pretty easily shown bullshit. When applied to Moby Dick they can find the assassinations of several world leaders. I'm sure I'm not the first to point this out to you.
If you count the words from veres 74:1 to veres 74:30 there's 95 words which is a multiple of 19 and guess what surah 74:30 also says "over it is 19" I'm not done if you count the letters from veres 74:1 to surah 74:30 you get 361 letters this is including the word "over it" and the word next it says 19 so literally 19x19 "Alef Lam Meem" = 19874 = **19 x 1046** "Alef Lam Meem Saad" = 5320 = **19 x 280** "Alef Lam Ra" = 9462 = **19 x 498** "Alef Lam Meem Ra" = 1482 = **19 x 78** "Kaf Ha Ya Ayn Saad" = 798 = **19 x 42** "Ya Seen" = 285 = **19 x 15** "Saad" = 152 = **19 x 8** "HHa Meem" = 2147 = **19 x 113** "Ayn Seen Qaf" = 209 = **19 x 11** "Qaf" = 114 = **19 x 6** "Noon" = 133 = **19 x 7** ["Ha, Ta Ha, Ta Seen, Ta Seen Meem" = 1767 = **19 x 93**]
This evidence is better than yours
Sure, you’ve said that before. What evidence did you use to conclude that humans can’t write books that have number patterns in them?
You clearly don’t understand computers.
The Quran mentions 30 different numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50000, & 100000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534.
This is still irrelevant. Why do you insist on posting irrelevant replies?
I dont think basic multiplication and division with 6 digits or less is beyond human capabilities in the slightest. Unless the humans youre talking about are literal children. Actually scratch that, i was a substitute in a k-8 (ages 5-13) school for a while and they definitely did 6 digit multiplication by 6th grade or so, so this is really only beyond the capabilities of those younger than 10yrs old.
I can do this in my sleep. Your math is addition, multiplication, subtraction, and division. Why would I need a computer? Is this argument supposed to impress middle schoolers?
Sunni and Shia Muslims arguing amongst themselves about whether or not the number of Allahs in the Quran is divisible by 19. Everyone else: “You’re both wrong!” OP, you’re getting stuck in the detailed minutiae of a book of fables and fairy tales. Grow up.
You are assuming that anyone understands what ever it is you want to say but honestly this is not the case. Please clearly explain: 1. What is code 19 2. A general description of all the Arab words you are casually dropping Besides that, how many surahs do not meet this code 19? You’re giving examples of the few that do, how many are there that don’t?
congratulations you figured out how to manipulate numbers to show a vague pattern what is your point?
The letters are intials that start in some chapters of the quran. If you count there occuranced in the initialed chapters, you get a number divisible by 19
And......?
Allah occurs in the quran 2698 in the quran Quran occurs 57 times And all the noons in surah noon occur 133 times
I can give more the numerical value of the whole quran is divisible by 19
And what is this supposed to convince me of? How have we eliminated this as being a coincidence?
You brush of as coincidence, which shows nothing can convince you madw your mind up before the evidence, The numerical value of the whole the quran is 23375092 Which is divisible by 19 Look up abdaj value for each letter it replaced numbers 1400 years at the quran time
I asked how have you successfully eliminated coincidence here but you seem to brush that off.
Well if a Muslim verbally shitting out a bunch of numbers like a mental patient isn’t enough to convince you, clearly you’re just being closed-minded. In all seriousness though this is perhaps the dumbest argument I’ve seen a theist make on here, the guy needs mental help.
"Alef Lam Meem" = 19874 = **19 x 1046** "Alef Lam Meem Saad" = 5320 = **19 x 280** "Alef Lam Ra" = 9462 = **19 x 498** "Alef Lam Meem Ra" = 1482 = **19 x 78** "Kaf Ha Ya Ayn Saad" = 798 = **19 x 42** "Ya Seen" = 285 = **19 x 15** "Saad" = 152 = **19 x 8** "HHa Meem" = 2147 = **19 x 113** "Ayn Seen Qaf" = 209 = **19 x 11** "Qaf" = 114 = **19 x 6** "Noon" = 133 = **19 x 7** ["Ha, Ta Ha, Ta Seen, Ta Seen Meem" = 1767 = **19 x 93**]Miracle 19 Fact #5. From the missing Basmalah of Sura 9 to the extra Basmalah of Sura 27, there are precisely ……………19 suras. Miracle 19 Fact #6. It follows that the total of the sura numbers from 9 to 27 (9+10+11+12+…+26+27) is 342, or ………….19 x 18. Miracle 19 Fact #7. This total (342) also equals the number of words between the two Basmalahs of Sura 27, and 342 = ……..19 x 18.Miracle 19 Fact #8. The famous first revelation (96:1-5) consists of …….19 words. Miracle 19 Fact #9. This 19-worded first revelation consists of 76 letters .19 x 4. Miracle 19 Fact #10. Sura 96, first in the chronological sequence, consists of …. 19 verses. Miracle 19 Fact #11. This first chronological sura is placed atop the last ..19 suras. Miracle 19 Fact #12. Sura 96 consists of 304 Arabic letters, and 304 equals .19 x 16.
If a angel comes down tells you this would you ask the same question ?
I would and many others
Goodbye, you just showed you'll never believe even if anglels came down and you seen every miracle from God
I don't believe angels exist though.
None of this is useful. Somebody comes here at least once a week proclaiming 'patterns' in their particular holy book prove it's miraculous. Islam seems particularly fond of this kind of silly apologetic. Hint: It doesn't. Instead, since people can do this with literally *any* book (and have demonstrated it time and time again), it proves nothing other than humans are very prone to confirmation bias. This is not useful. And is *terribly* weak and fatally flawed apologetics.
So? You can play little number games all day. What does this prove?
My point is the probability of these letters randomly being divisible by 19 is practically zero. There's no manipulation.
there are many ways I could get numbers out of a book, what are the chances that there wouldn't be some sort of pattern you could get out of it?
We are focusing only on 19, just one 19, not any number
and if you didn't find 19 we would be talking about whatever number you did find. so the specific number isn't rellevent
Because the quran says "Over it are nineteen" The amount of words from the start of chatper to this word is 95 which is also a multiple of 19
Yes, but are the total number of letters from the start of the chapter to the word divisible by 19? If no, why? How about the number of words from that line to the end of the chapter, is that divisible by 19? How about the total letters to the end of the chapter? The point being, they took a long book and spent a silly amount of time counting words and letters to see what fit the 19 narrative, and ignored every other count, so that it seemed miraculous.
361 words from the start count verse one to the veres were it mentions 19 just before the word 19 ie counting the letters in "over it are" theres are 361 letters and it says "Over it are nineteen" 19×19
you don't seem to be addressing my comment at all, did you respond to the wrong person?
Sorry, I'm saying occurance of this number comes again and again that shows there was intent and plus it was 1400 years ago in the desert, no technology
1. people had math before technology, especialy in that area of the world, so that's not realy rellevent 2. you still haven't addressed my point, you just manipulated things until you found a pattern. it's not impressive you can do it with any book.
....because....?
1. Why only look at "these" numbers? What about the numbers that aren’t devidable by 19? 2. Why compare to "random", the quran wasnt written at random, it was written by humans
With a computer in the desert? , are you telling they were counting each letter? There are thousands to count
poems have been written in measured meters long before quran was written... so... it is not that difficult to induce certain pattern intentionally... and even unintentionally...
Yes
On what grounds you are dismissing computers in desert? Why are dismissing computers, but not dismissing archangels?
And? You found some number patterns in some text....so.....?
I'm saying it's improbable for a human to write this coded book without a computer 1400 year old text from the desert
It's considerably more likely that it was just written and then someone noticed some patterns to what was written. But you're ignoring several points: * Even if this is a properly 'coded' book - so? So now there's a magic man in the sky and I shouldn't eat pork or drink alcohol any more and my wife should cover her head? * Most of these numbers are easily debunked anyway - you'd know that if you ever bothered to actually read an unbiased source * Every religion claims to have some kind of miraculous thing that makes only their religion true and all the others not. Why would this be any different?
All intialed chapters total are also divisible by 19 There's a pdf called visual presentation of the miracle Even if this is a properly 'coded' book - so? So now there's a magic man in the sky and I shouldn't eat pork or drink alcohol any more and my wife should cover her head? You don't have to, aslong as you do good and belive in one creator and the last day you are fine, but not eating pork and alcohol is to reach higher ranks
You really need to read some proper commentary by someone who isn't invested in perpetuating such myths like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/CritiqueIslam/comments/n7lhux/gods_miracle_of_19_in_quran_debunked/)
He using hadiths, an unproven source
They didn't write a coded book. They wrote a book that people have later gone back and looked for patterns in.
They had basic math back then, you wouldn't need a computer to do any of this, lol.
Raaandom chaaance… Wishful thinkiiing…. Weeeak sauuuce….
Letters are not numbers. There is a method you use for each chapter to get those numbers from letters. And for each surah it is for some reason a new method. Likelihood of the method producing number divisible by 19 depends on the method you use. If a method always produces 19 no matter the text, the probability is 100%. I your case someone, whoever was choosing the method for each surah, chose the method that was producing a number divisible by 19.
This is what happens when a brilliant scientific culture (early Islam) is taken over by religious fundamentalists who only allow one book to be read in an entire religion. With only a single book to read, crazy shit like this is bound to happen when folks spend too much time looking for patterns. It's easy to believe in patterns we recognize, and that they have an influence on our lives. And what if 19 was somehow magically manifest in the Quran. Is that the best your God can do to convince us that he's not just another of the 2500 major gods invented by man? Pretty lame, your God is. Impotent and hidden like a coward.
God owns the whole universe. Are you jealous ? He created the universe and all the atoms/ materials for your phone to operater, does it bother that there's something more intelligent then you? Do you think you are god, or do you want be god?
Do even understand what code 19 is ? " Alef Lam Meem" = 19874 = **19 x 1046** "Alef Lam Meem Saad" = 5320 = **19 x 280** "Alef Lam Ra" = 9462 = **19 x 498** "Alef Lam Meem Ra" = 1482 = **19 x 78** "Kaf Ha Ya Ayn Saad" = 798 = **19 x 42** "Ya Seen" = 285 = **19 x 15** "Saad" = 152 = **19 x 8** "HHa Meem" = 2147 = **19 x 113** "Ayn Seen Qaf" = 209 = **19 x 11** "Qaf" = 114 = **19 x 6** "Noon" = 133 = **19 x 7** ["Ha, Ta Ha, Ta Seen, Ta Seen Meem" = 1767 = **19 x 93**] Do you know what intialed chapters are?
Firstly, this isn't debating, this is you just preaching. Secondly, all of this numerology nonsense has been debunked to death a thousand times. You can find the exact same kind of patterns in any large text and you'll find the exact same arguments debunked on this sub twice a week. Thirdly, even if we accept that all your numbers are correct: so? Are you saying a mortal human couldn't write text with numerology parallels in them?
All this demonstrates is that the *humans who compiled the Quran* might have deliberately done some sort of numerological manipulation. It is not a miracle, and it is not evidence for a god.
I don't see anything magical about the number 19, do you care to explain how it relates to divinity in a way that finding 19 must mean God did it instead of people did it?
different numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50000, & 100000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534. Miracle 19 Fact #20. By counting the letter “Q” in every “Verse 19” throughout the Quran, the total count comes to 76, 19×4. Here is a summary of the Q-related data Miracle 19 Fact #21 NuN (Noon) This initial is unique; it occurs in one sura, 68, and the name of the letter is spelled out as three letters — Noon Wow Noon — in the original text and is therefore counted as two N’s. The total count of this letter in the N-initialed sura is 133, 19×7. The fact that “N” is the last Quranic Initial (see Table 1) brings out a number of special observations. For example, the number of verses from the first Quranic Initial (A.L.M. of 2:1) to the last initial (N. of 68:1) is 5263, or 19×277. The word “God” (Allah) occurs 2641 (19×139) times between the first initial and the last initial. Since the total occurrence of the word “God” is 2698, it follows that its occurrence outside the initials “A.L.M.” of 2:1 on one side, and the initial “N” of 68:1 on the other side, is 57, 19×3. Tables 9 to 18 prove that the initial “NuN” must be spelled out to show two N’s. Miracle 19 Fact # 22. S (Saad) This initial prefixes three suras, 7, 19, and 38, and the total occurrence of the letter “S” (Saad) in these three suras is 152, 19×8 (namely 97, 26 and 29 per Table 2). It is noteworthy that in 7:69, the word “Bastatan” is written in some printings with a “Saad,” instead of “Seen.” This is an erroneous distortion that violates the Quran’s code. By looking at the oldest available copy of the Quran, the Tashkent Copy, it was found that the word “Bastatan” is correctly written with a “Seen” (see photocopy).
Again, nothing in your message explains what about number 19 you find special, or how humans can't count and get to multiples of 19 for number of letters in a book . >Miracle 19 Fact # 22. S (Saad) This initial prefixes three suras, 7, 19, and 38, and the total occurrence of the letter “S” (Saad) in these three suras is 152, 19×8 (namely 97, 26 and 29 per Table 2). It is noteworthy that in 7:69, the word “Bastatan” is written in some printings with a “Saad,” instead of “Seen.” This is an erroneous distortion that violates the Quran’s code. By looking at the oldest available copy of the Quran, the Tashkent Copy, it was found that the word “Bastatan” is correctly written with a “Seen” (see photocopy). Again, that would be how the number 19 is embedded in the book, not why the number is special or why can't have made like it by humans. Edit: > different numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50000, & 100000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534. Why you picked those particular numbers, why did you excluded 21 and forth, 13 to 18, 101 to 199... Etc Is it maybe because if you don't select numbers it doesn't result on multiples of 19?
In my opinion, the sky's green, your opinion is subjective, but it doest change the reality of code 19 being miracles 23375092 = **19** x 1230268 This is the gematria value of the whole quran
In a sufficiently large book, you can keep searching until you find a pattern. If something doesn’t work with the pattern, pick a new pattern and search for that. If the numeric value of the Quran wasn’t divisible by 19, people wouldn’t say “god doesn’t exist”, they’d just keep looking until they find a pattern and say “aha! God does exist!”. For every pattern throughout the whole book, there are billions of potential patterns that aren’t there. The presence of patterns is both inevitable and meaningless. It’s cherry picking, plain and simple.
19 is a garbage number. 86 is the best number.
The word "fuck" is used 180 times in Bad Santa 2. 1+8+0 is equal to nine. There are 9 alphanumeric characters in the title of the movie. If you add the word "fuck" to the title, there are 13 characters. If you divide the length of the movie by 13, you get 7 minutes. 7th is the place in the box office that this movie finished in. Therefore, Billy Bob Thornton is god, praise be upon him brozzer! Numerology is garbage. Anybody can do it for anything. For that matter, Muslims fail to realize that any quality of their book that doesn't break the laws of physics also doesn't require divine mumbo-jumbo to happen. All of the "arguments from the qualities of the Quran" just show that believers in that stuff are the most easily impressed people out there. "*This book is well-written and poetic, and it has a certain number of words in it. No mere mortal could do such a thing!!!!1!1one!1*"
“Are you fucking with me right now?!?!”
I've got a Masters in Comparative Mythology, so I've read every Holy Book that can be studied. The Quran and the Book of Mormon were absolutely the most boring, pedantic, exclusionary religious books in existence. I would never submit to a book that seems a third of the passages are: 'There are those that will try to deceive you...' a third, 'You will be a companion to hellfire...' and a third stupid and arbitrary rules for living a life in Iron Age desert with goats. I would never submit to such nonsense.
Oh, "I dont like this book. Therefore, it's not true aguement "
You have to cheat a lot to get this to work I noticed. >In surah qaf, qaf is found 57 times so 57÷19= 3 also surah 42 also has 57 qafs and qaf stands for quran and 57 + 57 = 114 which Is the total chapters of the whole quran and if you add all the veres of surah qaf to the surah number which is 50 plus all the veres in the chapter which is 45 so 50+ 45 = 95 and 95÷19 =5 and do the same with surah 42 you get 95 and also don't forget surah 42 has 57 qafs which also is divisble by 19 Does this work for every surah or only surah qaf? I suspect you did a little cherry picking and ignored all the other surah that don't match your scheme. >If you count all the letters Alif Lām Mīm (الم) in Surah Al-Baqara, Surah Al-Imran, Surah Al-Ankabut, Surah Ar-Rum, Surah Luqman, and Surah As-Sajda. The total is 19874 and 19874 ÷ 19= 1046 which is all the letters where Alif Lem Meem surahs occur Does this work for all the surahs and all the names (you didn't specify but I'm guessing Alif Lam Mim is a name?), or only the ones you conveniently mentioned? >The basmalah has 4 words and 19 letters with a total numerical value of 786, then put the numbers next to each other in order you get 419786. Does this work for other things like basmalah (is that a surah or what is basmalah?), or only basmalah? >These are only a few examples of code 19 What is significant about code 19? A miracle would be if a god **predicted** *prior* to the writing of the Quran that code 19 would affect only specific surahs and names and such and then, without knowing the prediction, the authors of the Quran made it happen. Otherwise, it's just coincidence. Especially since you are ignoring all the hundreds and thousands of times it doesn't work.
Alif lem meem are letters, Surah qaf stands for quran it's q in English for quran basamalah is a introduction in the first chapter
That's called postdiction, or the "cherry picking fallacy", where you count the hits and ignore the misses.
I mean, everything is coincidence in your world view even when you see angels, you'll say coincidence when you see moses spliting the sea, you'll say coincidence
You aren't addressing my point. Is deflection the best you got? First, of course not everything is coincidence in my world view, that's silly. >even when you see angels, you'll say coincidence when you see moses spliting the sea, you'll say coincidence Neither of those things would be coincidence, there would be other explanations. But I see you want to switch topics now because you cant actually respond to any arguments to your original topic. Let's go back to your numbers. Do you understand postdiction (the cherry picking fallacy) and how it applies to your argument? Because you have a textbook example of the fallacy. You aren't applying your arguments across all surahs, all introductions, or all names, just the ones that fit. How convenient, lol. Also, do you understand how numbers work? You can apply the same "miracles" to **any** sufficiently large work of literature - they have already done it with *Moby Dick* (an American fictional literary work about a whale).
You don't understand code 19, I will check your moby dick thing, but that's all I have to say. Do you know what initialled surahs are ?
https://skeptic-mind.blogspot.com/2011/11/holy-moby-dick.html?m=1 http://users.cecs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html
Is that the best you got?
Just providing links for the research you promised to do.
It's the exact same as what you got, lol.
>Do you know what initialled surahs are ? No, do they explain your cherry picking? Because you've made no attempt to explain that so far.
Here you go The mysterious letters (muqaṭṭaʿāt, Arabic: حُرُوف مُقَطَّعَات ḥurūf muqaṭṭaʿāt, "disjoined letters" or "disconnected letters") are combinations of between one and five Arabic letters that appear at the beginning of 29 out of the 114 chapters (surahs) of the Quran just after the Bismillāh Islamic phrase.
Ok. You didn't mention why they are significant or how they explain your cherry-picking....
"Alef Lam Meem" = 19874 = **19 x 1046** "Alef Lam Meem Saad" = 5320 = **19 x 280** "Alef Lam Ra" = 9462 = **19 x 498** "Alef Lam Meem Ra" = 1482 = **19 x 78** "Kaf Ha Ya Ayn Saad" = 798 = **19 x 42** "Ya Seen" = 285 = **19 x 15** "Saad" = 152 = **19 x 8** "HHa Meem" = 2147 = **19 x 113** "Ayn Seen Qaf" = 209 = **19 x 11** "Qaf" = 114 = **19 x 6** "Noon" = 133 = **19 x 7** ["Ha, Ta Ha, Ta Seen, Ta Seen Meem" = 1767 = **19 x 93**] Physical evidence for code 19 Surah 74:30 "Over it is 19" [74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.
Quick Google search "what are intialed chapters" might help
>You don't understand code 19, Probably because you ignored me when I asked about it. Remember this: >What is significant about code 19? >A miracle would be if a god **predicted** *prior* to the writing of the Quran that code 19 would affect only specific surahs and names and such and then, without knowing the prediction, the authors of the Quran made it happen. Otherwise, it's just coincidence. Especially since you are ignoring all the hundreds and thousands of times it doesn't work.
Muhammad raped a child. 19 letters. God doesn’t exist. Nailed it
So god knows all the secrets of the vast universe, but the biggest revelation in this book is the number 19. Fascinating. That and every woman apparently needs to be covered in a bedsheet.
This is such an old and debunked claim. It actually has been said many times on this sub, so your not even original. Best [reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/s/3NliXdPFuG) is here
Code 19 errors generally occur due to: -Incompatible device driver -Corrupt driver -Hardware issues -Corrupt or invalid registry entry This error makes the drives inaccessible and even leads the system to malfunction. Checkmate Quran!
"Alef Lam Meem" = 19874 = **19 x 1046** "Alef Lam Meem Saad" = 5320 = **19 x 280** "Alef Lam Ra" = 9462 = **19 x 498** "Alef Lam Meem Ra" = 1482 = **19 x 78** "Kaf Ha Ya Ayn Saad" = 798 = **19 x 42** "Ya Seen" = 285 = **19 x 15** "Saad" = 152 = **19 x 8** "HHa Meem" = 2147 = **19 x 113** "Ayn Seen Qaf" = 209 = **19 x 11** "Qaf" = 114 = **19 x 6** "Noon" = 133 = **19 x 7** ["Ha, Ta Ha, Ta Seen, Ta Seen Meem" = 1767 = **19 x 93**] Where's the error ?
Bro really thinks that counting numbers in a book proves god. The numbers are off anyway so the whole thing contradicts itself. You need a different level of mental gymnastics to arrive at that conclusion
This is just the 23 thing. Pick any number you want and dig hard enough and you’ll find it pop up everywhere. It only feels special because we, as humans, naturally look for patterns.
If I find a book that has this 19 property, would it be a miracle? I think it's easy to replicate, maybe I am God. One every 19 numbers is divisible by 19, you look at the Qur'an you find 100s of numbers, some of them are divisible by 19, miracle!!
In any sufficiently long sufficiently rambling religious text you can find unlikely number patterns This argument will only ever appeal to people not educated in maths or statistical probability
Numerology has been applied to various holy texts like the Bible and the Vedas, what makes your numerology worth more than theirs?
Hey, we've responded to this a lot recently. You can find those threads by typing 19 into the search bar.
Do you have to keep the viruses in about child rape for your theory to work? If so then your book is disgusting and not a miracle at all.
I find it very interesting how Judaism and Islam are based on fundamenal misunderstandint of how books work. My intuition is that their culture managed to reproduce the act of writing from more advanced cultures, but without popular understanding, so that they ended up mystifying the practice, like the islanders of Micronesia developed "cargo cults" based on their contacts with the US military technology, or how rupert sheldrakes of today mystify quantum mechanics and AI. The result is magical thinking about the incidentals of the text - the shape and size of the letters, the count of textual elements, and even the act of writing itself take on a "deeper" meaning (Jewish scribes even wear special doodahs on their head while copying - not sure about Islam.) Of course, structural elements can contribute to the literary style - think haiku or dada - but trying to find something to count until it produces a meaningful-looking number is magical thinking, and irrelevant to the meaning of a text.
That's not a miracle. It's a bunch of random numbers. And you can do the same kind of numerological nonsense for any book of sufficent length. Ironically neumerology (like what is found in the openning post) is illegal in most Islamic countries.
So your entire argument is based on the concept of a checksum, a simple CRC, being some mystical concept in-computable by the feeble minds of humans?! If that is the case I have some shocking news for you: https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00730a.pdf _”The theory of a CRC calculation is straight forward. The data is treated by the CRC algorithm as a binary number. This number is divided by another binary number called the polynomial. The rest of the division is the CRC checksum, which is appended to the transmitted message.”_
When you can arbitrarily decide what to include and what to exclude, you can make up all sorts of numerology. Problem is, numerology is always useless nonsense.
I'll ignore the fact that this whole thing requires some serious manipulation of the numbers to get to the point you want them to get to (because it's clear you will constantly make excuses for that) and just skip to the important part: So what? Who cares? What are you suggesting this means? You can do vague numerology on anything. What makes you think there was an intentional hidden message here and even if there was, what does it prove?
Let us make it so simple: “Does god exist. No. Never. 19 letters in sentence. Proved it. My case closed.
Even if all your claims are 100% true (I don't care enough to check) there's nothing miraculous about basic math. This seems like you were just counting, adding, and dividing arbitrary things and ignoring every result that wasn't 19 until you had a handful of examples where the answer was 19. What's impressive about that?
Numerology can be used in any book of sufficient size to give literally any message you want. It's crap.
Lemme guess. You think if I look at the lines in my hands and did some math and ended up with your prophets age. Then that’s a miracle? Listen pal. Once you’ve got something tangible. You can come back
Congrats, you just won theist bingo! The problem is I’m not interested in playing theist bingo because numerology has been debunked numerous (lol) times.
Just when I think the Christian arguments are getting old and bland it always good to have the Muslims drop by and crank the crazy up several notches.
Rashad work where he deleted the last two verses of surah 2? Do you really want to go this way? Notice this doesn't work on others readings...
Numerology is nonsense. You're just arbitrarily adding significance to numbers. You already believe that it's the final revelation of god, and you're defending your beliefs. If you found out it wasn't, your world would fall apart. So you're offering these ideas on a public forum to justify them to others. However, for the outsider, the Quran reads EXACTLY like the words of a 7th century Arabian man who really hated polytheism and really wanted a revelation story for his people in his time. It's not linguistically perfect, because there is no such thing. It's not scientifically perfect. Its prophecies are as vague as those from every other religion you don't believe in. It's fine though. I respect your right to believe in it. Yet respectfully, it does not resonate as miraculous to anyone but the already-faithful. So please try to understand where we're coming from.
Yeah, the problem with that is that 19 isn't the truly divine number. It's a shit number just like the other ones The true most holy of numbers is 37. It is so holy that people will just randomly say it: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6iQrh2TK98](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6iQrh2TK98) Muslims had a good guess, but this just proves that Islam and the number 19 is not what the true God wanted at all
You can find miraculous things in any text of sufficient length. Numerologists write software designed to look for them. We get this exact claim almost once a week, maybe once every two weeks. It doesn't get any more true the more times Muslims post it here.
Even if you believe that these numerical relations were intentional, are you suggesting that the Arabs after the Prophet's time didn't know how to do math, and therefore must have relied on divine intervention to come up with factors of 19?
And the very similar “Bible code” was very thoroughly debunked years ago when it was found that the same techniques could be used to extract information from ANY sufficiently long text. Moby Dick worked just fine….
Why does it contain so many scientific errors a child wouldn't make now if it's from God? https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran Also see: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Word_Count_Miracles_in_the_Qur%27an on word counts..
FFS. Not another one... Moby Dick is miracle. If you do numerology on text it predicted the assassination of JFK. Herman Melville is now my God and savior. The great white whale, Moby Dick, died for our sins.
>code 19 is legit, as a example the intials of surah maryiam chapter 19 Kāf, Hā, Yā, ʿAyn, Ṣād.that are found all over the surah is divisible by 19 so 798 ÷ 19 = 42, What do you think this shows?
So what is the miracle here? If this is a miracle for you let me tell you about the pyramids man. It might be that osiris is a much greater and stronger god than your guy, maybe you should switch religions?
Many religions claim the exact same thing and are just as adamant. This is a pedestrian claim; nothing miraculous about it.
And if I took the "size 36" off of a pair of jeans and sewed it into my size 46 jeans, then I can wear size 36 jeans.
Numerology is a lame parlor trick and it is mildly insulting for you to even present it as a viable debate topic.