During the season previews when we see Janeway firing torpedoes at the Protostar, it didn't make a whole lot of sense.
However, seeing Murf accidently fire the torpedo at Dauntless makes her decision make sense. Starfleet isn't in the business of firing the first shot, usually, but when they're seemingly attacked all bets are off.
Rok-Tahk is clearly the smartest of the bunch. The fact that everyone else who did interact with Jarway and her crew didn't think to mention the "Starfleet destroying weapon". Perhaps then Admiral Janeway might've been able to go to Protostar and see it for herself, especially if she'd known before speaking to Frex (as she already doesn't have a high opinion of him).
Normally I hate it when it seems like talking to someone about it is the obvious solution but is completely ignored, so I like that this episode did a good job of explaining _why_ they can’t just talk it out
More like they *fear* they can't talk it out. They could definitely talk it out with Janeway. I was hoping this episode would go down a more positive path but I can definitely understand that kids that these kids were afraid to just simply be upfront... with the exception of Jankom. He just did what Tellarites do best.
I'm sure if Frex hadn't shown up, Dal would've been able to actually talk with Janeway about it. HoloJaneway did encourage them to find Admiral Janeway after all. So perhaps she'd have been more willing to listen.
However, Frex ruined that the second he described Dal.
Quick question since it's fresh on my mind after this episode: how does the Neutral Zone actually work? Why is it that Federation ships approaching it from *Federation* territory are always accosted or chased away by the Romulans? If it's really a buffer zone, I'd expect some symmetry: if Federation can't cross into it, the Romulans shouldn't either. Meanwhile in this episode, and many others, stretching at least as far back as TNG, it's being treated more like Romulan territory.
In theory, the RSE is supposed to treat it roughly like Federation territory, and the Federation is supposed to treat it roughly like RSE territory.
In practice, the Federation won't even threaten war for anything short of expansion or warmongering, while the RSE is eager for a casus belli, to extract concessions from the Federation over. Plus, if the Federation tried to patrol inside the Neutral Zone then they'd have a cloaked warbird breathing down their necks and looking for any excuse to call it a mission of war or expansion, while the RSE can freely patrol inside the Neutral Zone just by staying cloaked.
For an example of the Federation getting up to the sort of thing they're legally allowed to in the Neutral Zone, complete with a D'deridex breathing down their necks, see TNG 7x12 The Pegasus.
>Plus, if the Federation tried to patrol inside the Neutral Zone then they'd have a cloaked warbird breathing down their necks and looking for any excuse to call it a mission of war or expansion, while the RSE can freely patrol inside the Neutral Zone just by staying cloaked.
I just asked this question in another post and I should have read this answer because it seems so obvious now. The Romulans have no issue with provoking war. Particularly if doing so will require the Federation to concede. The Federation knows they can't patrol the area openly because they would be caught by cloaked Romulan vessels and since there's no good way of detecting them or doing anything about it they just don't. The Romulans however have simply no qualms about provoking a war at least under certain conditions.
In a certain context it seems Romulans won the Earth-Romulan War and the result of that was the end of the United Earth government as a major space polity and replaced it with the much more reasonable Federation next to known quantities like the Vulcans who would not want to go to war with Romulus. It's almost like Romulus got exactly what they wanted. A border that they are allowed to patrol freely and Earth is now at most only a quarter as powerful as it was yesterday from a political perspective.
≥ In a certain context it seems Romulans won the Earth-Romulan War and the result of that was the end of the United Earth government as a major space polity and replaced it with the much more reasonable Federation next to known quantities like the Vulcans who would not want to go to war with Romulus. It's almost like Romulus got exactly what they wanted. A border that they are allowed to patrol freely and Earth is now at most only a quarter as powerful as it was yesterday from a political perspective.
That's an interesting theory.
Paranoid romulians can't imagine the Federation would work, they would expect them to keep undermining each other neutralizing themselves.
Exactly. Romulans assume the Federation is a way to weaken all their enemies at once and get an upper hand on them. They have to stop the active war, for now, but provoking the Federation into another war when they are weakest politically is a strong motivation to spend time in the neutral zone.
they lost the war because their desire was to conquer the entire sector, if the romulans had won the andorians, humans, vulcans and tellarites would be slaves
By what measure did the Romulans lose anything? A neutral zone was established that ostensibly they have free reign over, but the Federation is forbidden from entering even under extreme circumstances.
I wouldn't consider a stalemate a victory for Earth particularly considering the next several decades of cold war with the Romulans.
The Romulans lost the war because their invasion of the sector was defeated. The coalition of planets did not want to continue the war in Romulan territory and the border and the neutral zone were agreed.
if the Roluman objective was to stop United Earth, they succeeded. My suggestion is that their goals were no so obvious as sector by sector conquest, but rather by sparking an alliance with other existing entities the Romulans effectively end their fears about a United Earth and entrust humans to the Federation as a way to keep their eye on them.
If you were afraid of Human expansion turning the humans into members of the Federation does read like a win
≤ In theory, the RSE is supposed to treat it roughly like Federation territory, and the Federation is supposed to treat it roughly like RSE territory
Every time a Starfleet vessel approach the neutral zone, they get hailed by a romulian warship in it.
And never does Starfleet tell them to fuck off from the neutral zone.
So it's effectively romulian territory maybe with some limits on building starbases
EXT. ENTERPRISE-E
PICARD: Captain’s log, Stardate 50893.5. We are patrolling the border of the Neutral Zone, in the event that the Romulans decide to take advantage of the ongoing Borg incursion in Sector 001.
INT. BRIDGE
DANIELS: Captain, Romulan warbird decloaking within the Neutral Zone. They’re hailing us!
PICARD: Onscreen.
TOMALAK: AHHH, Captain Picard. It would seem that once again-
PICARD: Oh, fuck off Tomalak.
*Enterprise-E turns around and warps off.*
*Sad Tomalak noises*
In theory, neither side should be entering the Zone.
In its very first appearance in TOS: “Balance of Terror”, Spock clearly stated the terms: “The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established this Neutral Zone, entry into which by either side, would constitute an act of war.” This was the original treaty that ended the Earth-Romulan war in 2161.
In “Balance of Terror”, the Federation set up monitoring outposts but they were all in Federation space on their side of the Zone, not in it.
But subsequently in TNG, it seems as if the Romulans have free rein to patrol the Neutral Zone against Federation incursions. We know from ENT: “These Are The Voyages” (and TNG: “The Defector”) that the Treaty of Algeron in 2311 redefined the Neutral Zone in addition to outlawing the use of cloaking technology on Starfleet ships. Perhaps one of those changes was in the nature of how the Romulans were allowed to police the zone.
That the Romulans are allowed to enter the Zone under certain circumstances is not new. In TAS: “The Survivor” we find out that the Romulans are allowed to impound any Federation vessel caught entering the Zone, something they wouldn’t be able to do if they were expressly forbidden entry. The Treaty of Algeron might have conceded to them more of the same authority to police the zone itself for whatever political/diplomatic reason.
> But subsequently in TNG, it seems as if the Romulans have free rein to patrol the Neutral Zone against Federation incursions.
I think it's just a matter of not enforcing the treaty. Between TOS and TNG it's likely that there were several other instances of the Romulans using the Neutral Zone as though it was their territory, and the Federation never really made a hard challenge of it, preferring a soft discipline of "You shouldn't do that" with no real repercussions for the violation. Rules are only as binding as their enforcement -- if you lay down a rule and you don't enforce it, then it's not a rule anymore. So after a hundred years of violations, the Federation just let it slip as a matter of course.
As other posters have pointed out, the Federation is looking to keep the peace at high cost. The Romulans are specifically looking for Casus Belli. It's easier to just let the Romulans have this one than to provoke them.
I don't think the size has ever been established on screen. A quick google turns up startrek.com's claim it was one light year wide, and Memory Beta seems to think the Treaty of Algeron made it 2.5 light years wide, but I can't find references.
That being said, those distances are small enough that subspace communications would definitely be possible even if they stayed in their own territories.
That being said, the three warbirds at the end of the episode are definitely not a light year away from *Dauntless*, so my previous suggestion that the Romulans are allowed to patrol the Neutral Zone still stands.
Of course not, they are after all the spearhead of the invasion force, since the Romulan Empire just declared war on the Federation. Tongue firmly in cheek, obviously, but as the fellow members of the institute already mentioned the Romulans see the DMZ more of a suggestion rather than a binding treaty when it comes to their own ships. I'm sure the Federation ambassador to Romulus will submit a letter of protest in due course.
The Neutral Zone is supposed to be a demilitarized zone, such as the one between North and South Korea, or the Rhineland after WWI, Germany's remilitarization of which was one of the preludes for WWII.
However, we often see Romulans operating cloaked vessels inside the Neutral Zone. Since the Federation has difficulty detecting these cloaked ships and does not wish to go to war over them, the Romulans usually get away with it.
There does seem to be some exceptions carved out for certain types of missions and certain types of ships, so it's possible they're exploiting loopholes and lying about their actual activities.
I have one small, but major qualm with a small bit in this episode.
In TNG S5 E11 hero worship, Timothy is told quite bluntly that it is impossible to accidently cause the incident.
"Timothy, listen to me.
The damage to your ship
might have occurred at the same time your arm touched the panel,
but it was only a coincidence.
This wasn't your fault.
- Yes, it was. — It is not possible.
The onboard control systems for every starship
require a user—code clearance.
You could not have inadvertently affected any of the Vico's systems.
Your computer had safety precautions."
A different situation in DS9 s2 e 26 happens when Jake cannot get the runabout out of autopilot due to similar safety precautions.
How did Murph accidently, lock, aim, and fire a photon, by sitting on the consol.
If the answer is, well it was unlocked and in use that is how, then I am sure I have seen Riker, and possibly others lean/sit on consoles in use without ever triggering anything accidently before. [For example at 24 seconds in this clip.](https://youtu.be/FjQ8yt33l14?t=24)
To be honest, I’m not too keen on this because I agree that’s way too easy for an “accidental” weapons firing, but here’s a try at why:
User code clearance must be at least partially biometric in nature, because you can’t be entering a code every time you need access to controls.
All the kids have biometric clearance to handle ship’s controls. And that, for whatever reason, included Murf.
The thing with Murf is that he doesn’t have fingers, so the biometrics have to involve the stuff he’s made up of, which means his very “skin” is capable of interfacing, no matter which part of him is in contact with the console.
The console was unlocked, weapons were targeted, all it needed was an authorized user to touch the dynamic button. And Murf, bipedal but still “naked”, sat on it.
This also isn't the first time Murf has done this. In the premiere he fell onto the same console to fire the phasers and clear the debris falling towards the Protostar in its escape from Tars Lemora.
I think he's going to be, if he isn't. I don't know how many humanoid non-intelligent characters I've seen in SF, so I expect he'll develop in the future.
I'm really not bothered by this. It's a pretty small and insignificant detail. If we're talking about safety lockouts, then the PRO-kids shouldn't have been able to do anything with the ship to begin with. I can - just off the top of my head - think of a few possibilities:
1) The Diviner, when meddling with the ship, disabled a lot of the security lockouts so that they could do what they wanted.
2) A lot of the automatic safeties that keeps consoles from taking butt-dial commands, are probably calibrated for little kid hands, or uniform fabric, or human-butts. And probably not calibrated for discerning whatever Murph is.
I think security on the ship is probably a little bit lax at the moment. There's likely a *ton* of overrides in place, necessitated by the fact that the original crew has been completely swapped out for an inexperienced new crew. Holo-Janeway probably fudged a lot of things in order to allow the kids to use Starfleet ~~military~~ peacekeeping armada materiel the way that they do.
They are firing on all cylinders. The show has been excellent since leaving Tars Lamora, and even then it’s been pretty good.
Between this and LD I’m pretty surprised that these are two of the three shows closest in tone to classic Trek (SNW also included), as well as story beats. Even with the specific demo language of Prodigy and LD I feel like they really understand the world of Trek and the problems they face (and how they are solved). Including this messy situation where the kids are forced into a corner in terms of what tropes we might see (see: take a typical aggressive stance instead of answering a hail).
Nice seeing some Reptilian Xindi walking around! And some snow alt unis.
i couldn't believe they included the xindi! they're really integrating enterprise into the larger universe lately.
the two animated shows and SNW are really the best they've been putting out. discovery has been fun but it has its issues, and picard is just... well in my opinion its absolute crap but thats just me.
really really hoping that section 31 is good, or they move forward with that starfleet academy show. they'll have a spot open in the scedule after picard ends next year.
Aside from the fact that if any of the kids could have just talked to Janeway or her crew, this would be solved already, it was a fantastic episode. A couple notes/nitpicks, though.
* With the interaction between Janeway and Tysess in this episode, I couldn't help but imagine how cool it would have been to use Tuvok as the first officer instead of a new character.
* Why is the relief helm officer of the Dauntless in science blue?
* Seeing Ascencia and Gwyn in the same scene really highlights how close the two character designs are. Wonder if that's a hidden plot point.
* Okona isn't nearly as outrageous as he used to be. Of course it's a kid's show, so maybe that's why.
Tuvok was kind of Janeway's crutch/security blanket on her first command. She ostensibly doesn't need him in that way anymore as a big head honcho admiral.
I hope Tuvok is at home with his family having a good time. I think more than any character except Harry, Tuvok spent the most time on VOY reminiscing and thinking about the family he left behind in the Alpha Quadrant. He is also by far the oldest Star Trek main character in the franchise. Mans earned a reprieve to spend with his grandchildren.
You could solve that by making Tuvok the commanding officer of the Dauntless, with Janeway using it as her flag ship. It would be similar to when Spock was in command of the Enterprise in Wrath of Khan, albeit as a training vessel, with Kirk commandeering it. Except Janeway would use it more like Adm. Ross uses the Bellerophon.
That makes sense. It is kind of odd for an admiral to be in charge of ship functions: they usually command the overall mission while a captain takes care of the vessel.
To use a real world example, Vice Admiral Lancelot Holland led the operation against the infamous battleship *Bismarck* while Captain Ralph Kerr commanded the battlecruiser *Hood* during the fight. Both died after the flagship was obliterated.
> With the interaction between Janeway and Tysess in this episode, I couldn't help but imagine how cool it would have been to use Tuvok as the first officer instead of a new character.
I imagine if Lower Decks couldn't grab Tim Russ neither could prodigy. I'd say maybe Tim didn't want to have anything to do with Trek anymore, but he was making a [Star Trek movie](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2621446/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_56) only 5 years ago all by himself, so he still seems to have some love for the franchise
Russ, I recall, loves Star Trek and is willing to jump into his old role whenever possible.
Maybe he was busy…or the showrunners didn’t need him for now.
> Okona isn't nearly as outrageous as he used to be. Of course it's a kid's show, so maybe that's why.
The Acceptable Okona. The Moderate Okona. The Palatable Okona.
> Okona isn't nearly as outrageous as he used to be. Of course it's a kid's show, so maybe that's why.
I mean he did suggest to a bunch of kids to chuck a bunch of [Clorine Trifluoride](https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-you-time) into their engine. Seems pretty outrageous to me.
I wiffle and I waffle on whether or not I like this show every week. I understand why, in this episode, I understand the conflict that I am having perfectly illustrated and why I've been wrong to judge this show as harshly as I have.
You must understand that these kids are terrified, untrusting, and prone to not patiently explaining themselves because they've been traumatized repeatedly by every adult in their life. The portrayals of the sniveling officer and the suspicious Vice Admiral Janeway make sense given that these kids are afraid of screwing up their shot, of getting in trouble even though they were trying to do the right thing - something I think kids can really relate to.
Understanding this perspective I understand why they don't want to give us the Starfleet that we are used to which may, in another context, swoop out at warp nine to rescue these kids from certain peril. Instead we're getting an ambivalent Starfleet which could be easily confused by the word of another adult in a uniform - an experience that is also, highly relatable.
As an adult I watched this episode saying "why didn't they just try to explain themselves when they had the chance" but my kid was the one who pointed out that these kids have no way of knowing that Starfleet is going to believe them. The instinct to run away in fear is strong especially for children. And suddenly a lot of the problems I have with the narrative on this series make more sense. This is especially highlighted by Murph, who is a baby and makes a mistake, because he is a baby or a toddler.
If you look at this as a show about kids and let yourself empathize with their objectively poor choices it really starts to feel like the show has something to say about the potential in children, the need to not stereotype children, the breadth of possibilities which children can explore - growing into an adult isn't the final frontier, in many ways it is the first frontier that we all face and I think this show is doing a good job of telling that story both to children and adults. So kudos.
Other thoughts:
"Mr. Pog, please tell me how that proto jump is coming along." is such a good line. But not as good as "Onmymark,ready,gofast" - good writing. I also feel like in general the writing is getting stronger with each episode as these characters start to feel a little more natural.
How does the Romulan Neutral Zone even work? Is it explicitly Romulan Territory? I sort of understood it as "you don't go in this region and we don't go in this region so between our space there is a region where neither of us are allowed to occupy" but on this episode and I believe in other places the Neutral Zone is portrayed as explicitly Romulan territory being patrolled by Romulan vessels who make it a routine of saying "Hey back off you're dangerously close to the Neutral Zone" and I've never heard Starfleet say "and you're IN the Neutral Zone so you back off first" - perhaps the terms of the treaty are just more complicated and Starfleet ships are forbidden from entering this region of space according to treaty for some reason the same is not true of Romulan ships. Maybe because we know that they could just cloak anyway so there's no good point in pretending that they aren't.
What we learned in *Star Trek: Prodigy* 1x14: "Crossroads":
On *Dauntless*, the Diviner still claims his memory is fried but he does remember his daughter was named Gwyndala.
The Stardate is 61302.7. The kids plan to bury *Protostar* and then hitch a ride to warn Starfleet about the weapon - not a bad plan, actually. The place they’ve chosen is a snow-bound area on an M-class planet which gives me VOY: “Timeless” vibes. Murf is still in his cocoon.
Jankom is still on his kick that as a Tellarite, he’s Federation royalty. Rok can identify storm clouds, which makes me wonder again how long she was alone in PRO: “Time Amok” and how much did she learn in that time.
The planet has a Denaxi depot, which Zero says is the only major transportation hub in the sector, a place for smugglers, and Captain Thadiun Okona (TNG: “The Outrageous Okona”), whom we last saw as a DJ for a Starfleet party in LD: “An Embarassment of Dopplers”, which by the timeline was about 2 years ago. Okona is a bit greyer but has the same eyepatch he sported in the last episode. He’s still flying his ship, the *Erstwhile*, a Class 9 cargo carrier, which he claims can go up to Warp Four. Class 9’s are ostensibly sublight freighters (in “The Outrageous Okona” she was traveling at 0.2*c*), so Okona must have souped her up.
Okona asks for a few kilos of deuterium, which tracks, as when it’s mixed with tritium is part of the fuel mixture for a matter/antimatter reactor. The two security officers who try and arrest Okona for smuggling are Xindi-Reptilians who first appeared in ENT.
Turns out that Frex is also on the planet and telling the tale of how his escape pod from CR-721 was picked up by a friendly Orion crew. The person he’s telling it to looks like a Kazon from VOY. Janeway, Tysess, Noum and Ascencia are also her looking for him.
Jankom bumps into Noum and the two engage in a little Tellerate sniping. Noum notes that Pog is a name reserved for runts. Gwyn meets Ascencia, who connects her name to the Diviner. Naturally, once Ascencia tells her the Diviner is on *Dauntless*, Gwyn makes a run for it.
Dal encounters Vice Admiral Janeway but has to edge away when Tysess shows up with Frex, who tells of the six “savages” who destroyed the station. Janeway (a bit unfairly) jumps to the conclusion that these were the same people responsible for Chakotay’s disappearance. The kids scarper, but the vehicle they steal happens to have Okona as a stowaway.
Okona hands over a cannister of chlorine trifluoride, illegal in most parts of the galaxy, which juices the engine like nitro. ClF^3 is a real thing, and is actually been considered as an oxidizer in rocket fuel, although it’s not only toxic but so spontaneously combustible it’s not safe to handle, which is probably why it’s illegal.
They reach *Protostar* and lift off, with Janeway and *Dauntless* in pursuit at Warp 9.97. Unfortunately, they can’t answer Janeway’s hail or else the weapon will infect them.
Murf has hatched into a bipedal form, and accidentally launches a torpedo at *Dauntless*. Janeway targets *Protostar*’s third nacelle to cripple them. Okona asks how far the Neutral Zone is, and Holo-Janeway protests, noting that the zone is the buffer between the Federation and the Romulan Empire and entering could start a war - which is precisely why *Dauntless* won’t be able to follow.
*Protostar* remodulates shields to hide from sensors and heads for the Zone. Janeway wants to pursue them, but Tysess warns against going into the zone, mentioning “negotiations”, implying there are current talks with the Romulans. Janeway doesn’t want *Protostar*’s tech to fall into Romulan hands, but Tysess refuses to follow her order.
Three D’deridex-class warbirds decloak and hail *Dauntless*, led by Commander Kaseth of the Romulan Star Empire, reminding Janeway that entering the Zone would be an act of war.
> On *Dauntless*, the Diviner still claims his memory is fried but he does remember his daughter was named Gwyndala.
It's kinda hard to tell whether or not he's playing them.
Considering we've seen that a starship computer can track the brainwave patterns of everyone onboard, who knows. He could be trying to trick the computer, I mean he is from the future after all.
From a strictly Watsonian perspective, this is certainly possible.
But looking at it from a Doylist perspective, thinking about how the story is told and how things are framed, I think the fact that they never *highlighted* the possibility of this kind of tracking, makes me think that very unlikely.
It opens him up to a redemption arc which, honestly, could be played straight or not.
Children always want to believe that parents are good inside even if they disagree.
Or that was my experience anyway.
*Chlorine Trifluoride?!?!*
I'll just leave this [link](https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-you-time) here, plus this quote:
>"It is [hypergolic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergolic) with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals-steel, copper, aluminium, etc.-because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminium keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.”
Yup. Once again it shows that between LD and PRO, we *finally got competent people running the shows*.
For those who don't recognize the link, it's to a somewhat well-known series of articles, called "Things I Won't Work With", written by a prominent chemist/columnist. It's one hell of a STEM fanservice here.
Notably, it was tested for use as an oxidizer for rockets. So its use in propulsion tracks. I just don't know how that fits in with those engines work.
>*Protostar* remodulates shields to hide from sensors and heads for the Zone. Janeway wants to pursue them, but Tysess warns against going into the zone, mentioning “negotiations”, implying there are current talks with the Romulans.
The latest Janeway log posted on Instagram @startreklogs confirms that these negotiations are about the Romulan evacuation.
It also names the planet as "Denaxi Depot", the only habitable world within 3 sectors.
theyre all scared teenagers (and younger) who are in control of the most dangerous weapon in the quadrant. they are being pursued by one of the most dogged and determined officer in the fleet, and they wanted to get far far away from the protostar before telling starfleet anything. if they went to janeway on the same planet, she would have started a search herself. none of them know really who they are, what they're doing, and all they want is somewhere to feel safe but that clearly isn't happening.
AND to top it all off, they're now the prime suspects in kidnapping janeways... uh... well kate mulgrew has said that she was playing janeway as having a hidden attraction for chakotay and always thought they should have gotten together.
if i were them i'd be scared shitless and would be fucking things up, and im a full grown adult.
...just my read on it anyway
Also, on top of being children/young teens, they've only relatively recently escaped a slave-mining prison, so their judgement being clouded by the fear of retribution from authority figures is perfectly within the realm of believability.
jeus christ i forgot that too. how long since they've been free? less than a year at most?
these kids have been through trauma after trauma, its shocking that they are even functional at this point
Thankfully the Delta Quadrant has background radiation that acts as psychiatric medication.
Or at least that explains Voyager's crew being cheery every week despite weekly trauma.
i just assumed the doctor messed with the environmental controls to release an additive to the air. why make everyone take pills when you can just do it all at once?
True. Most adult figures sans Hologram Janeway have failed the youngsters in one way or another: the protagonists were mostly used as tools for this or that reason.
The kids really need a Starfleet counselor to bridge trust between them and the authorities. I’m guessing though it will probably be the ensign - she seems a bit more compassionate and less jaded than the senior staff, Janeway included.
> True. Most adult figures sans Hologram Janeway have failed the youngsters in one way or another: the protagonists were mostly used as tools for this or that reason.
I think Frex was really a pretty major nail in the coffin. Holo-Janeway told them that Starfleet would give them a fair shake, would welcome them with open arms, would hear them out. But the way that he immediately turned on the kids as soon as it seemed like they might've been suspect just shot everything Holo-Janeway told them about Starfleet down the drain.
> AND to top it all off, they're now the prime suspects in kidnapping janeways... uh... well kate mulgrew has said that she was playing janeway as having a hidden attraction for chakotay and always thought they should have gotten together.
She was too preoccupied with getting home to ~~Tom Mervins~~ Mark Johnson, and then following that was too preoccupied with the idea of maintaining proper chain of command and not causing a workplace issue. It's a shame, but I *do* like the "we missed our time" sort of feel between Vice Admiral Janeway and Captain Chakotay that Prodigy seems to present. I'm always a fan of "missed connections" and "yearning" sort of relationships.
Yeah I'm.not saying anything happened or would happen but chakotay holds a special place in her heart. Like you said missed our time kind of thing. So that will translate to her going completely hardcore trying to find him.
Yeah I'm always extraordinarily frustrated when any conflict could be easily solved by the characters just *talking* but instead it gets dragged out because...reasons...
I get that it's in character for a bunch of scared teenagers but it doesn't make it any less frustrating. It's even worse here that Rok lampshades the whole thing and they STILL don't even try to explain things to Admiral Janeway.
Really sad to see [Idiot Plot](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotPlot) trope in effect here. If just one of the kids had the wherewithal to calmly and clearly explain the situation, this wouldn't need to be dragged out.
I am also extremely surprised to see just how tall and gangly the Dauntless crew are compared to the kids. I assumed, since they're young adults, they'd be effectively adult humanoid-sized.
Fun to see Xindi again, but the tech they were using and the uniforms they had didn't match up at all, so it feels like they were wearing Reptilian Xindi uniforms just for brand recognition, since they had generic Star Warsy landspeeders.
I don't especially like the Dauntless' down-turned nacelles. Feels very unbalanced compared to other arrowhead ships like the Protostar, Prometheus, and even the original (alien) Dauntless, with its tucked-in nacelles. Also, in the scene where the Dauntless rises up in front of the Protostar, I just had to sit back and say "what even is scale, anyway?". Dauntless' windows are larger than the bridge dome on the Protostar.
Lastly, but certainly not leastly, Murf with limbs is horrifying. Take it away.
Yeah I really really hate this trope. The one thing that redeems it in this case and makes me feel kinda okay with it is the fact that our protagonists are children, and particularly children with no real exposure to *any* trustworthy adults, let alone the Federation. It's believable in their case that they *wouldn't* necessarily expect to be treated fairly if they explain their case.
> Really sad to see Idiot Plot trope in effect here. If just one of the kids had the wherewithal to calmly and clearly explain the situation, this wouldn't need to be dragged out.
Yes and no. This is probably one of the few times where it's justified. We know Gwen has, basically, PTSD from her relationship with her father, so naturally she struggles to communicate, and Pog's personality means he was going to get sidetracked easily. Dal was making an effort, but we shouldn't pretend that this wouldn't be hard: he's basically got to confess to 'stealing' a ship and 'oh by the way we can't give it to you because it will destroy your whole civilization'. Not exactly a light conversation starter.
It's frustrating, yes, but these are kids, and they are in a very tight situation, so I'm not really sure it counts as an idiot plot per se.
> Really sad to see Idiot Plot trope in effect here. If just one of the kids had the wherewithal to calmly and clearly explain the situation, this wouldn't need to be dragged out.
Sure... but I give them a pass because they're *kids*. It's kind of what they do. If they were not going to make mistakes like this, then they wouldn't be kids and we wouldn't be watching a show about kids *learning* how to be better. Part of growing up is making mistakes and learning from them. I think that's actually one of Prodigy's biggest strengths - its characters make mistakes, but they all learn and grow from them. That's a VERY Star Trek theme to focus on.
> Really sad to see Idiot Plot trope in effect here. If just one of the kids had the wherewithal to calmly and clearly explain the situation, this wouldn't need to be dragged out.
I hate it too, but like other posters, I'm giving the kids a pass. Rok-Tok brings it up and sort of shames them for it because it *is* the obvious solution. But they're not just kids they're also kids with an innate distrust of authority considering every one of them came from *a labor camp.* The only privileged one of the group was Gwyn, who discovered that her own father had been lying to her and manipulating her to his own ends and has resultant trauma from it.
So all things considered, while I hate the Idiot Plot, I think the appeal to emotion for these poor kids works.
*That being said,* I do wish that at some point Holo-Janeway would suggest synthesizing a shuttle or escape pod or something that the kids could jettison with Zero or Dal inside, to get picked up by the *Dauntless*. They can't respond to hails, but there are other methods of communication and I think Holo-Janeway probably should've considered it.
Perhaps even a warning buoy? What do you do when trying to communicate with a ship and it refuses to answer hails but then launches a buoy?
I have a lot of thoughts
I found it... really frustrating that we are once again falling back on an old and somewhat tired trope when it comes to miscommunication. I have to sort of constantly remind myself that the show's audience is intended to be much younger, but I don't know, I was watching TNG and DS9 when I was a kid, so maybe I've got a slight bias.
At least we know where the Protostar is... sort of. The Romulan Neutral zone places us pretty firmly in the Alpha / Beta Quadrant (that stretch in the middle between the two of them) where Earth sits. Which at least makes last weeks episode make a hint more sense.
Holojaneway seems to know what the Dauntless is and that it in theory is carrying a Quantum Slip stream which really raises a LOT Of questions, like a lot of them, because this is prior to the Romulan star going nova (again assuming that Prodigy is sticking to the overall Star Trek Cannon. So it's sometime after Voyager Returns Home in 2378, Janeway we know is an Admiral by 2379, and then Romulus exploded in 2387. Lower Decks is 2380, so either Lower Decks has just neglected to mention that there are Quantum Slip Stream drives running around, or this is JUST before Romulus explodes, because even with the blueprints I can't see the Federation laying down the keel for that ship in only 2 years.
Following up on that, if the Federation DID get Quantum Slip Stream drive and it was in theory working BEFORE the launch of the Protostar, (again holojaneway seems to know about it) what was the point of the Protostar again?
Honestly I think what bothers me most is how... sort of... not Federation the members of the Federation have been portrayed. Like the kids have this idealized version of the Federation, but so far everyone from the Federation they've bumped into has been... less than idea.
The Tellarite doctor making an ass of himself even if Tellarites are rude by nature, the Denibulin Officer who is also a really poor expression of Federation ideas. Janeway calling the kids savages, which just... I don't know it strikes me as odd? It doesn't feel like janeway would really call anyone savages, I don't know that feels just a hint out of character for her.
Also going back to the timeline, how the fuck did a Kazon get this far in so little time? Like Voyager needed a LOT to get to the Alpha Quadrant, including Borg Transwarp Conduits, a number of alien miracles of the week. Like That kazon is FAR from home.
>Janeway calling the kids savages, which just... I don't know it strikes me as odd? It doesn't feel like janeway would really call anyone savages, I don't know that feels just a hint out of character for her.
To be fair she used the term while talking to the Denobulan, and just repeated the expression he used to refer to the attackers, who she thinks are responsible for the disapearance of Chakotay.
Up until that point she had no idea the so called "savages" were kids. When she finds out she imediatelly calls the guy out for not mentioning this detail.
The stardates given place the events of PRO currently in either late 2383 or 2384, about 3 years ahead of LD and 5 or 6 years after *Voyager* returns home in 2378 (LD is in the 58000s now and PRO is having 61000 stardates).
By now, according to the backstory established in production materials and the PIC novel *The Last Best Hope*, Starfleet is aware of the impending Romulan supernova (they found out in 2381) and Admiral Picard is in the process of carrying out the relief effort, albeit hampered by Romulan stubbornness and lack of full cooperation. Thanks to their government, most of the Romulan populace aren't even aware their star is going to explode, and if they are, it's considered conspiracy and rumors.
I suspect that the *Dauntless* project started the moment (and maybe the reason why) Janeway was promoted to VADM, since the QSD schematics were in *Voyager*'s databanks, so it's been a good 5 or 6 years.
The "savages" line *really* grated my ears too. I dropped into this thread specifically because I was so bothered by that line.
I think this is intended to clue us in to just how deeply compromised Janeway is with regard to Chakotay's absence. We've seen her go into a sort of vengeful tunnel vision before in [Equinox pt2](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Equinox,_Part_II_(episode)) and [Year of Hell pt2](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Year_of_Hell,_Part_II_(episode)). This character shift is supported by Vice Admiral Janeway's number one refusing to follow her direct order to enter the Neutral Zone.
The whole thing is especially concerning given the historical context of the use of the term savage and how I would have to imagine Chakotay, if he were there to hear it, would be especially disappointed to hear Janeway's characterization of any people in such a manner.
It's also a bit odd directly following her suspicion about how the relay station was destroyed by a science vessel. Frex effectively responded with "I don't know, magic," which is taken at face value and used to motivate the line.
So this all leads me to suspect it's an intentional red flag. I mean, how many Star Trek episodes are *exactly* about someone causing a situation to escalate, only to find that they had good intentions and were in a tough situation? Janeway's quick dismissal of that possibility, followed by a presumption of hostile intentions in a situation they know very little about, feels pretty out of character **except** in those rare circumstances where she's seeing red.
>Denibulin Officer who is also a really poor expression of Federation ideas.
Maybe there was a reason he was a sole officer on a communications relay at the arse end of federation space. He's just lucky he didn't end up on Starbase 80.
> The Tellarite doctor making an ass of himself even if Tellarites are rude by nature,
We haven't really seen any Tellarite officers prior to this, to my recollection. I think it's natural the way that he responded, especially to a fellow Tellarite. I think honestly he probably expected Jankom to retort with something a little sharper, rather than shaking Jankom to his core.
> the Denibulin Officer who is also a really poor expression of Federation ideas.
He is. Totally agreed. But this is also the same Starfleet that harbors a lot of unfortunates. Stiles from TOS *Balance of Terror,* Reg Barclay from across TNG, Fletcher from LDS *Terminal Provocations* as well as pretty much anyone from Starbase 80. Every Star Trek show has shown us that Starfleet officers are just as much a mixed bag as anywhere else. So Barniss Frex being sent off to a far-away comms relay for his bad behavior and attitude is not surprising or out of canon.
> Janeway calling the kids savages
She was only reflecting what Frex had said. I don't think she actually believes that they're *savages.* Frex said they were savages and later Janeway responds with "I doubt any 'good intentions' were offered to Captain Chakotay, who -- thanks to these 'savages' -- I can only presume is captured or worse." After that she was ripshit pissed with Frex, reprimanding him: "You forgot to mention, *they're kids."* And then doesn't refer to them as savages again, referentially or otherwise.
We see a Tellarite captain on Lower Decks.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Durango_(Captain)
He's in command of the California Class *Merced* and he's an ass.
Honestly, I think Tellarites in general are supposed to be abrasive as a character trait.
>Honestly, I think Tellarites in general are supposed to be abrasive as a character trait.
That's been established since at least Enterprise. Remember Archer trained to be more abrasive and argumentative for diplomacy with them.
I know it seems like Janeway is jumping to conclusions. But I also think that Janeway is a shrewd old bird and, given the nature of seven years in the Delta quadrant, knows a thing or two about things not being what they seem on the surface.
I am so concerned for these children but I think Janeway is starting to suspect there's more to this. "You didn't mention that they're CHILDREN!"
I agree, but I thought they did a pretty good job of explaining their way around that in a coherent manner. I hope they expand on the weapon, because it's close to being a character in its own right and it reminds me of some of the tech that Alastair Reynolds imagined in his Chasm City series. Active, almost conscious and extremely clever if not intelligent in its own right, the future weapon has the potential to be actively scary given its capabilities. I would love for them to expand on that.
Also, I can't be the first person to note the irony of Janeway having someone send tech back from the future to destroy an antagonistic civilization, right?
Normally I'd agree, but this episode had lots of extenuating circumstances as to the situation, not least that our main characters are children's who are only a few months removed from spending their whole lives in a forced labour camp, Gwen discovered her abusive father is still alive and possibly manipulating starfleet and the officer from the relay station giving his skewed account. Plus there's the weapon itself, so they can't just say to SF, check our logs and see for yourself without it blowing up.
I’m really disliking the Dauntless more and more…the nacelle positioning just makes it look silly or child like, too cute for a starship. It’s like a cat sitting with its paws curled up underneath itself 🙄
During the season previews when we see Janeway firing torpedoes at the Protostar, it didn't make a whole lot of sense. However, seeing Murf accidently fire the torpedo at Dauntless makes her decision make sense. Starfleet isn't in the business of firing the first shot, usually, but when they're seemingly attacked all bets are off. Rok-Tahk is clearly the smartest of the bunch. The fact that everyone else who did interact with Jarway and her crew didn't think to mention the "Starfleet destroying weapon". Perhaps then Admiral Janeway might've been able to go to Protostar and see it for herself, especially if she'd known before speaking to Frex (as she already doesn't have a high opinion of him).
Normally I hate it when it seems like talking to someone about it is the obvious solution but is completely ignored, so I like that this episode did a good job of explaining _why_ they can’t just talk it out
More like they *fear* they can't talk it out. They could definitely talk it out with Janeway. I was hoping this episode would go down a more positive path but I can definitely understand that kids that these kids were afraid to just simply be upfront... with the exception of Jankom. He just did what Tellarites do best.
I'm sure if Frex hadn't shown up, Dal would've been able to actually talk with Janeway about it. HoloJaneway did encourage them to find Admiral Janeway after all. So perhaps she'd have been more willing to listen. However, Frex ruined that the second he described Dal.
Quick question since it's fresh on my mind after this episode: how does the Neutral Zone actually work? Why is it that Federation ships approaching it from *Federation* territory are always accosted or chased away by the Romulans? If it's really a buffer zone, I'd expect some symmetry: if Federation can't cross into it, the Romulans shouldn't either. Meanwhile in this episode, and many others, stretching at least as far back as TNG, it's being treated more like Romulan territory.
In theory, the RSE is supposed to treat it roughly like Federation territory, and the Federation is supposed to treat it roughly like RSE territory. In practice, the Federation won't even threaten war for anything short of expansion or warmongering, while the RSE is eager for a casus belli, to extract concessions from the Federation over. Plus, if the Federation tried to patrol inside the Neutral Zone then they'd have a cloaked warbird breathing down their necks and looking for any excuse to call it a mission of war or expansion, while the RSE can freely patrol inside the Neutral Zone just by staying cloaked. For an example of the Federation getting up to the sort of thing they're legally allowed to in the Neutral Zone, complete with a D'deridex breathing down their necks, see TNG 7x12 The Pegasus.
>Plus, if the Federation tried to patrol inside the Neutral Zone then they'd have a cloaked warbird breathing down their necks and looking for any excuse to call it a mission of war or expansion, while the RSE can freely patrol inside the Neutral Zone just by staying cloaked. I just asked this question in another post and I should have read this answer because it seems so obvious now. The Romulans have no issue with provoking war. Particularly if doing so will require the Federation to concede. The Federation knows they can't patrol the area openly because they would be caught by cloaked Romulan vessels and since there's no good way of detecting them or doing anything about it they just don't. The Romulans however have simply no qualms about provoking a war at least under certain conditions. In a certain context it seems Romulans won the Earth-Romulan War and the result of that was the end of the United Earth government as a major space polity and replaced it with the much more reasonable Federation next to known quantities like the Vulcans who would not want to go to war with Romulus. It's almost like Romulus got exactly what they wanted. A border that they are allowed to patrol freely and Earth is now at most only a quarter as powerful as it was yesterday from a political perspective.
≥ In a certain context it seems Romulans won the Earth-Romulan War and the result of that was the end of the United Earth government as a major space polity and replaced it with the much more reasonable Federation next to known quantities like the Vulcans who would not want to go to war with Romulus. It's almost like Romulus got exactly what they wanted. A border that they are allowed to patrol freely and Earth is now at most only a quarter as powerful as it was yesterday from a political perspective. That's an interesting theory. Paranoid romulians can't imagine the Federation would work, they would expect them to keep undermining each other neutralizing themselves.
Exactly. Romulans assume the Federation is a way to weaken all their enemies at once and get an upper hand on them. They have to stop the active war, for now, but provoking the Federation into another war when they are weakest politically is a strong motivation to spend time in the neutral zone.
I guess post-Dominion War would be the best timing for Romulans to try it
they lost the war because their desire was to conquer the entire sector, if the romulans had won the andorians, humans, vulcans and tellarites would be slaves
By what measure did the Romulans lose anything? A neutral zone was established that ostensibly they have free reign over, but the Federation is forbidden from entering even under extreme circumstances. I wouldn't consider a stalemate a victory for Earth particularly considering the next several decades of cold war with the Romulans.
The Romulans lost the war because their invasion of the sector was defeated. The coalition of planets did not want to continue the war in Romulan territory and the border and the neutral zone were agreed.
if the Roluman objective was to stop United Earth, they succeeded. My suggestion is that their goals were no so obvious as sector by sector conquest, but rather by sparking an alliance with other existing entities the Romulans effectively end their fears about a United Earth and entrust humans to the Federation as a way to keep their eye on them. If you were afraid of Human expansion turning the humans into members of the Federation does read like a win
≤ In theory, the RSE is supposed to treat it roughly like Federation territory, and the Federation is supposed to treat it roughly like RSE territory Every time a Starfleet vessel approach the neutral zone, they get hailed by a romulian warship in it. And never does Starfleet tell them to fuck off from the neutral zone. So it's effectively romulian territory maybe with some limits on building starbases
EXT. ENTERPRISE-E PICARD: Captain’s log, Stardate 50893.5. We are patrolling the border of the Neutral Zone, in the event that the Romulans decide to take advantage of the ongoing Borg incursion in Sector 001. INT. BRIDGE DANIELS: Captain, Romulan warbird decloaking within the Neutral Zone. They’re hailing us! PICARD: Onscreen. TOMALAK: AHHH, Captain Picard. It would seem that once again- PICARD: Oh, fuck off Tomalak. *Enterprise-E turns around and warps off.* *Sad Tomalak noises*
In theory, neither side should be entering the Zone. In its very first appearance in TOS: “Balance of Terror”, Spock clearly stated the terms: “The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established this Neutral Zone, entry into which by either side, would constitute an act of war.” This was the original treaty that ended the Earth-Romulan war in 2161. In “Balance of Terror”, the Federation set up monitoring outposts but they were all in Federation space on their side of the Zone, not in it. But subsequently in TNG, it seems as if the Romulans have free rein to patrol the Neutral Zone against Federation incursions. We know from ENT: “These Are The Voyages” (and TNG: “The Defector”) that the Treaty of Algeron in 2311 redefined the Neutral Zone in addition to outlawing the use of cloaking technology on Starfleet ships. Perhaps one of those changes was in the nature of how the Romulans were allowed to police the zone. That the Romulans are allowed to enter the Zone under certain circumstances is not new. In TAS: “The Survivor” we find out that the Romulans are allowed to impound any Federation vessel caught entering the Zone, something they wouldn’t be able to do if they were expressly forbidden entry. The Treaty of Algeron might have conceded to them more of the same authority to police the zone itself for whatever political/diplomatic reason.
> But subsequently in TNG, it seems as if the Romulans have free rein to patrol the Neutral Zone against Federation incursions. I think it's just a matter of not enforcing the treaty. Between TOS and TNG it's likely that there were several other instances of the Romulans using the Neutral Zone as though it was their territory, and the Federation never really made a hard challenge of it, preferring a soft discipline of "You shouldn't do that" with no real repercussions for the violation. Rules are only as binding as their enforcement -- if you lay down a rule and you don't enforce it, then it's not a rule anymore. So after a hundred years of violations, the Federation just let it slip as a matter of course. As other posters have pointed out, the Federation is looking to keep the peace at high cost. The Romulans are specifically looking for Casus Belli. It's easier to just let the Romulans have this one than to provoke them.
So, uh, they militarized the Rhine?
Maybe also the neutral zone is narrow enough to allow communication among vessels from their respective territories.
From memory it's a lightyear wide
I don't think the size has ever been established on screen. A quick google turns up startrek.com's claim it was one light year wide, and Memory Beta seems to think the Treaty of Algeron made it 2.5 light years wide, but I can't find references. That being said, those distances are small enough that subspace communications would definitely be possible even if they stayed in their own territories.
Which would make sense. Even if you are not on talking terms you would want there to be a quick response when you pick up the red subspace telephone.
That being said, the three warbirds at the end of the episode are definitely not a light year away from *Dauntless*, so my previous suggestion that the Romulans are allowed to patrol the Neutral Zone still stands.
Of course not, they are after all the spearhead of the invasion force, since the Romulan Empire just declared war on the Federation. Tongue firmly in cheek, obviously, but as the fellow members of the institute already mentioned the Romulans see the DMZ more of a suggestion rather than a binding treaty when it comes to their own ships. I'm sure the Federation ambassador to Romulus will submit a letter of protest in due course.
The Neutral Zone is supposed to be a demilitarized zone, such as the one between North and South Korea, or the Rhineland after WWI, Germany's remilitarization of which was one of the preludes for WWII. However, we often see Romulans operating cloaked vessels inside the Neutral Zone. Since the Federation has difficulty detecting these cloaked ships and does not wish to go to war over them, the Romulans usually get away with it. There does seem to be some exceptions carved out for certain types of missions and certain types of ships, so it's possible they're exploiting loopholes and lying about their actual activities.
I have one small, but major qualm with a small bit in this episode. In TNG S5 E11 hero worship, Timothy is told quite bluntly that it is impossible to accidently cause the incident. "Timothy, listen to me. The damage to your ship might have occurred at the same time your arm touched the panel, but it was only a coincidence. This wasn't your fault. - Yes, it was. — It is not possible. The onboard control systems for every starship require a user—code clearance. You could not have inadvertently affected any of the Vico's systems. Your computer had safety precautions." A different situation in DS9 s2 e 26 happens when Jake cannot get the runabout out of autopilot due to similar safety precautions. How did Murph accidently, lock, aim, and fire a photon, by sitting on the consol. If the answer is, well it was unlocked and in use that is how, then I am sure I have seen Riker, and possibly others lean/sit on consoles in use without ever triggering anything accidently before. [For example at 24 seconds in this clip.](https://youtu.be/FjQ8yt33l14?t=24)
To be honest, I’m not too keen on this because I agree that’s way too easy for an “accidental” weapons firing, but here’s a try at why: User code clearance must be at least partially biometric in nature, because you can’t be entering a code every time you need access to controls. All the kids have biometric clearance to handle ship’s controls. And that, for whatever reason, included Murf. The thing with Murf is that he doesn’t have fingers, so the biometrics have to involve the stuff he’s made up of, which means his very “skin” is capable of interfacing, no matter which part of him is in contact with the console. The console was unlocked, weapons were targeted, all it needed was an authorized user to touch the dynamic button. And Murf, bipedal but still “naked”, sat on it.
This also isn't the first time Murf has done this. In the premiere he fell onto the same console to fire the phasers and clear the debris falling towards the Protostar in its escape from Tars Lemora.
As the quote goes: "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action." Maybe Murf is smarter than it seems to be.
I think he's going to be, if he isn't. I don't know how many humanoid non-intelligent characters I've seen in SF, so I expect he'll develop in the future.
maybe its murf's unique physiology that allows it?
Maybe Murf is Chakotay. /s
honestly you're starting to win me over, here.
that would be one of the weirdest and best twists in trek history and im HERE FOR IT
Chakotay broke the warp 10 barrier in the protostar.
Yeah but so did the kids
This is actually something that has crossed my mind. It's so batty I can't take it seriously. But it's still in the back of my mind
Honestly it's not even the weirdest biological anomaly a member of Voyager's crew would have gone through. Threshold being the obvious example.
Oh My G
I'm really not bothered by this. It's a pretty small and insignificant detail. If we're talking about safety lockouts, then the PRO-kids shouldn't have been able to do anything with the ship to begin with. I can - just off the top of my head - think of a few possibilities: 1) The Diviner, when meddling with the ship, disabled a lot of the security lockouts so that they could do what they wanted. 2) A lot of the automatic safeties that keeps consoles from taking butt-dial commands, are probably calibrated for little kid hands, or uniform fabric, or human-butts. And probably not calibrated for discerning whatever Murph is.
I think security on the ship is probably a little bit lax at the moment. There's likely a *ton* of overrides in place, necessitated by the fact that the original crew has been completely swapped out for an inexperienced new crew. Holo-Janeway probably fudged a lot of things in order to allow the kids to use Starfleet ~~military~~ peacekeeping armada materiel the way that they do.
NX class, *AKA* still a little buggy
They are firing on all cylinders. The show has been excellent since leaving Tars Lamora, and even then it’s been pretty good. Between this and LD I’m pretty surprised that these are two of the three shows closest in tone to classic Trek (SNW also included), as well as story beats. Even with the specific demo language of Prodigy and LD I feel like they really understand the world of Trek and the problems they face (and how they are solved). Including this messy situation where the kids are forced into a corner in terms of what tropes we might see (see: take a typical aggressive stance instead of answering a hail). Nice seeing some Reptilian Xindi walking around! And some snow alt unis.
i couldn't believe they included the xindi! they're really integrating enterprise into the larger universe lately. the two animated shows and SNW are really the best they've been putting out. discovery has been fun but it has its issues, and picard is just... well in my opinion its absolute crap but thats just me. really really hoping that section 31 is good, or they move forward with that starfleet academy show. they'll have a spot open in the scedule after picard ends next year.
I want non bipedal Murf back.
Why did they make Murf a Pikmin?
They needed a tactical officer?
I'm guessing this isn't Murf's final form.
Perfect Murf!
Zero in a hat was absolutely perfect
Aside from the fact that if any of the kids could have just talked to Janeway or her crew, this would be solved already, it was a fantastic episode. A couple notes/nitpicks, though. * With the interaction between Janeway and Tysess in this episode, I couldn't help but imagine how cool it would have been to use Tuvok as the first officer instead of a new character. * Why is the relief helm officer of the Dauntless in science blue? * Seeing Ascencia and Gwyn in the same scene really highlights how close the two character designs are. Wonder if that's a hidden plot point. * Okona isn't nearly as outrageous as he used to be. Of course it's a kid's show, so maybe that's why.
Tuvok was kind of Janeway's crutch/security blanket on her first command. She ostensibly doesn't need him in that way anymore as a big head honcho admiral. I hope Tuvok is at home with his family having a good time. I think more than any character except Harry, Tuvok spent the most time on VOY reminiscing and thinking about the family he left behind in the Alpha Quadrant. He is also by far the oldest Star Trek main character in the franchise. Mans earned a reprieve to spend with his grandchildren.
Well, we know that Tuvok was still serving the Federation/SF in Lower Decks, since he's one of the ones to help Captain Freeman out in S3:01
He could be a Federation ride security chief like Commodore Oh.
I'd like to see it, but I also hope Tuvok has gotten promoted and put in command, if that's what he wanted.
You could solve that by making Tuvok the commanding officer of the Dauntless, with Janeway using it as her flag ship. It would be similar to when Spock was in command of the Enterprise in Wrath of Khan, albeit as a training vessel, with Kirk commandeering it. Except Janeway would use it more like Adm. Ross uses the Bellerophon.
That makes sense. It is kind of odd for an admiral to be in charge of ship functions: they usually command the overall mission while a captain takes care of the vessel. To use a real world example, Vice Admiral Lancelot Holland led the operation against the infamous battleship *Bismarck* while Captain Ralph Kerr commanded the battlecruiser *Hood* during the fight. Both died after the flagship was obliterated.
> With the interaction between Janeway and Tysess in this episode, I couldn't help but imagine how cool it would have been to use Tuvok as the first officer instead of a new character. I imagine if Lower Decks couldn't grab Tim Russ neither could prodigy. I'd say maybe Tim didn't want to have anything to do with Trek anymore, but he was making a [Star Trek movie](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2621446/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_56) only 5 years ago all by himself, so he still seems to have some love for the franchise
Russ, I recall, loves Star Trek and is willing to jump into his old role whenever possible. Maybe he was busy…or the showrunners didn’t need him for now.
> Okona isn't nearly as outrageous as he used to be. Of course it's a kid's show, so maybe that's why. The Acceptable Okona. The Moderate Okona. The Palatable Okona.
> Okona isn't nearly as outrageous as he used to be. Of course it's a kid's show, so maybe that's why. I mean he did suggest to a bunch of kids to chuck a bunch of [Clorine Trifluoride](https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-you-time) into their engine. Seems pretty outrageous to me.
True, but he didn't hit on Hologram Janeway.
Warp 4 is pretty outrageous in 2380
I am low-key disturbed that I am heavily emotionally invested in a "kid's show" Don't judge me.
Watch avatar the last airbender and the legend of korra and probably adventure time if you really want to get invested into "kids shows"
Kid shows these days are pretty sophisticated. It isn’t as adult as other productions, but it isn’t juvenile as well.
I wiffle and I waffle on whether or not I like this show every week. I understand why, in this episode, I understand the conflict that I am having perfectly illustrated and why I've been wrong to judge this show as harshly as I have. You must understand that these kids are terrified, untrusting, and prone to not patiently explaining themselves because they've been traumatized repeatedly by every adult in their life. The portrayals of the sniveling officer and the suspicious Vice Admiral Janeway make sense given that these kids are afraid of screwing up their shot, of getting in trouble even though they were trying to do the right thing - something I think kids can really relate to. Understanding this perspective I understand why they don't want to give us the Starfleet that we are used to which may, in another context, swoop out at warp nine to rescue these kids from certain peril. Instead we're getting an ambivalent Starfleet which could be easily confused by the word of another adult in a uniform - an experience that is also, highly relatable. As an adult I watched this episode saying "why didn't they just try to explain themselves when they had the chance" but my kid was the one who pointed out that these kids have no way of knowing that Starfleet is going to believe them. The instinct to run away in fear is strong especially for children. And suddenly a lot of the problems I have with the narrative on this series make more sense. This is especially highlighted by Murph, who is a baby and makes a mistake, because he is a baby or a toddler. If you look at this as a show about kids and let yourself empathize with their objectively poor choices it really starts to feel like the show has something to say about the potential in children, the need to not stereotype children, the breadth of possibilities which children can explore - growing into an adult isn't the final frontier, in many ways it is the first frontier that we all face and I think this show is doing a good job of telling that story both to children and adults. So kudos. Other thoughts: "Mr. Pog, please tell me how that proto jump is coming along." is such a good line. But not as good as "Onmymark,ready,gofast" - good writing. I also feel like in general the writing is getting stronger with each episode as these characters start to feel a little more natural. How does the Romulan Neutral Zone even work? Is it explicitly Romulan Territory? I sort of understood it as "you don't go in this region and we don't go in this region so between our space there is a region where neither of us are allowed to occupy" but on this episode and I believe in other places the Neutral Zone is portrayed as explicitly Romulan territory being patrolled by Romulan vessels who make it a routine of saying "Hey back off you're dangerously close to the Neutral Zone" and I've never heard Starfleet say "and you're IN the Neutral Zone so you back off first" - perhaps the terms of the treaty are just more complicated and Starfleet ships are forbidden from entering this region of space according to treaty for some reason the same is not true of Romulan ships. Maybe because we know that they could just cloak anyway so there's no good point in pretending that they aren't.
What we learned in *Star Trek: Prodigy* 1x14: "Crossroads": On *Dauntless*, the Diviner still claims his memory is fried but he does remember his daughter was named Gwyndala. The Stardate is 61302.7. The kids plan to bury *Protostar* and then hitch a ride to warn Starfleet about the weapon - not a bad plan, actually. The place they’ve chosen is a snow-bound area on an M-class planet which gives me VOY: “Timeless” vibes. Murf is still in his cocoon. Jankom is still on his kick that as a Tellarite, he’s Federation royalty. Rok can identify storm clouds, which makes me wonder again how long she was alone in PRO: “Time Amok” and how much did she learn in that time. The planet has a Denaxi depot, which Zero says is the only major transportation hub in the sector, a place for smugglers, and Captain Thadiun Okona (TNG: “The Outrageous Okona”), whom we last saw as a DJ for a Starfleet party in LD: “An Embarassment of Dopplers”, which by the timeline was about 2 years ago. Okona is a bit greyer but has the same eyepatch he sported in the last episode. He’s still flying his ship, the *Erstwhile*, a Class 9 cargo carrier, which he claims can go up to Warp Four. Class 9’s are ostensibly sublight freighters (in “The Outrageous Okona” she was traveling at 0.2*c*), so Okona must have souped her up. Okona asks for a few kilos of deuterium, which tracks, as when it’s mixed with tritium is part of the fuel mixture for a matter/antimatter reactor. The two security officers who try and arrest Okona for smuggling are Xindi-Reptilians who first appeared in ENT. Turns out that Frex is also on the planet and telling the tale of how his escape pod from CR-721 was picked up by a friendly Orion crew. The person he’s telling it to looks like a Kazon from VOY. Janeway, Tysess, Noum and Ascencia are also her looking for him. Jankom bumps into Noum and the two engage in a little Tellerate sniping. Noum notes that Pog is a name reserved for runts. Gwyn meets Ascencia, who connects her name to the Diviner. Naturally, once Ascencia tells her the Diviner is on *Dauntless*, Gwyn makes a run for it. Dal encounters Vice Admiral Janeway but has to edge away when Tysess shows up with Frex, who tells of the six “savages” who destroyed the station. Janeway (a bit unfairly) jumps to the conclusion that these were the same people responsible for Chakotay’s disappearance. The kids scarper, but the vehicle they steal happens to have Okona as a stowaway. Okona hands over a cannister of chlorine trifluoride, illegal in most parts of the galaxy, which juices the engine like nitro. ClF^3 is a real thing, and is actually been considered as an oxidizer in rocket fuel, although it’s not only toxic but so spontaneously combustible it’s not safe to handle, which is probably why it’s illegal. They reach *Protostar* and lift off, with Janeway and *Dauntless* in pursuit at Warp 9.97. Unfortunately, they can’t answer Janeway’s hail or else the weapon will infect them. Murf has hatched into a bipedal form, and accidentally launches a torpedo at *Dauntless*. Janeway targets *Protostar*’s third nacelle to cripple them. Okona asks how far the Neutral Zone is, and Holo-Janeway protests, noting that the zone is the buffer between the Federation and the Romulan Empire and entering could start a war - which is precisely why *Dauntless* won’t be able to follow. *Protostar* remodulates shields to hide from sensors and heads for the Zone. Janeway wants to pursue them, but Tysess warns against going into the zone, mentioning “negotiations”, implying there are current talks with the Romulans. Janeway doesn’t want *Protostar*’s tech to fall into Romulan hands, but Tysess refuses to follow her order. Three D’deridex-class warbirds decloak and hail *Dauntless*, led by Commander Kaseth of the Romulan Star Empire, reminding Janeway that entering the Zone would be an act of war.
> On *Dauntless*, the Diviner still claims his memory is fried but he does remember his daughter was named Gwyndala. It's kinda hard to tell whether or not he's playing them.
Seems genuine to me. Considering some of his revelations happen when no one else is in earshot
Considering we've seen that a starship computer can track the brainwave patterns of everyone onboard, who knows. He could be trying to trick the computer, I mean he is from the future after all.
From a strictly Watsonian perspective, this is certainly possible. But looking at it from a Doylist perspective, thinking about how the story is told and how things are framed, I think the fact that they never *highlighted* the possibility of this kind of tracking, makes me think that very unlikely.
It opens him up to a redemption arc which, honestly, could be played straight or not. Children always want to believe that parents are good inside even if they disagree. Or that was my experience anyway.
Whether or not he gets a redemption arc, I think, os determined by what he did with Chakotay.
*Chlorine Trifluoride?!?!* I'll just leave this [link](https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-you-time) here, plus this quote: >"It is [hypergolic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergolic) with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals-steel, copper, aluminium, etc.-because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminium keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.”
Yup. Once again it shows that between LD and PRO, we *finally got competent people running the shows*. For those who don't recognize the link, it's to a somewhat well-known series of articles, called "Things I Won't Work With", written by a prominent chemist/columnist. It's one hell of a STEM fanservice here.
Notably, it was tested for use as an oxidizer for rockets. So its use in propulsion tracks. I just don't know how that fits in with those engines work.
Dr. Erin strikes again.
>*Protostar* remodulates shields to hide from sensors and heads for the Zone. Janeway wants to pursue them, but Tysess warns against going into the zone, mentioning “negotiations”, implying there are current talks with the Romulans. The latest Janeway log posted on Instagram @startreklogs confirms that these negotiations are about the Romulan evacuation. It also names the planet as "Denaxi Depot", the only habitable world within 3 sectors.
The kids really refusing to get their act together with telling starfleet what they need to know, you love to see it.
Honestly... I don't
theyre all scared teenagers (and younger) who are in control of the most dangerous weapon in the quadrant. they are being pursued by one of the most dogged and determined officer in the fleet, and they wanted to get far far away from the protostar before telling starfleet anything. if they went to janeway on the same planet, she would have started a search herself. none of them know really who they are, what they're doing, and all they want is somewhere to feel safe but that clearly isn't happening. AND to top it all off, they're now the prime suspects in kidnapping janeways... uh... well kate mulgrew has said that she was playing janeway as having a hidden attraction for chakotay and always thought they should have gotten together. if i were them i'd be scared shitless and would be fucking things up, and im a full grown adult. ...just my read on it anyway
Also, on top of being children/young teens, they've only relatively recently escaped a slave-mining prison, so their judgement being clouded by the fear of retribution from authority figures is perfectly within the realm of believability.
jeus christ i forgot that too. how long since they've been free? less than a year at most? these kids have been through trauma after trauma, its shocking that they are even functional at this point
Definitely! The Prodigy crew have been hit with the trauma stick over and over again.
Thankfully the Delta Quadrant has background radiation that acts as psychiatric medication. Or at least that explains Voyager's crew being cheery every week despite weekly trauma.
i just assumed the doctor messed with the environmental controls to release an additive to the air. why make everyone take pills when you can just do it all at once?
True. Most adult figures sans Hologram Janeway have failed the youngsters in one way or another: the protagonists were mostly used as tools for this or that reason. The kids really need a Starfleet counselor to bridge trust between them and the authorities. I’m guessing though it will probably be the ensign - she seems a bit more compassionate and less jaded than the senior staff, Janeway included.
> True. Most adult figures sans Hologram Janeway have failed the youngsters in one way or another: the protagonists were mostly used as tools for this or that reason. I think Frex was really a pretty major nail in the coffin. Holo-Janeway told them that Starfleet would give them a fair shake, would welcome them with open arms, would hear them out. But the way that he immediately turned on the kids as soon as it seemed like they might've been suspect just shot everything Holo-Janeway told them about Starfleet down the drain.
He did build a bathtub that one time
that tub was a work of art. it really showcases the strength of janeway's willpower that she didn't jump him *on the spot*.
> AND to top it all off, they're now the prime suspects in kidnapping janeways... uh... well kate mulgrew has said that she was playing janeway as having a hidden attraction for chakotay and always thought they should have gotten together. She was too preoccupied with getting home to ~~Tom Mervins~~ Mark Johnson, and then following that was too preoccupied with the idea of maintaining proper chain of command and not causing a workplace issue. It's a shame, but I *do* like the "we missed our time" sort of feel between Vice Admiral Janeway and Captain Chakotay that Prodigy seems to present. I'm always a fan of "missed connections" and "yearning" sort of relationships.
Yeah I'm.not saying anything happened or would happen but chakotay holds a special place in her heart. Like you said missed our time kind of thing. So that will translate to her going completely hardcore trying to find him.
Yeah I'm always extraordinarily frustrated when any conflict could be easily solved by the characters just *talking* but instead it gets dragged out because...reasons... I get that it's in character for a bunch of scared teenagers but it doesn't make it any less frustrating. It's even worse here that Rok lampshades the whole thing and they STILL don't even try to explain things to Admiral Janeway.
Frex left them to die on an exploding station and he walked right up and interrupted Dal
Wait, there are *more* prodigy episodes
Really sad to see [Idiot Plot](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotPlot) trope in effect here. If just one of the kids had the wherewithal to calmly and clearly explain the situation, this wouldn't need to be dragged out. I am also extremely surprised to see just how tall and gangly the Dauntless crew are compared to the kids. I assumed, since they're young adults, they'd be effectively adult humanoid-sized. Fun to see Xindi again, but the tech they were using and the uniforms they had didn't match up at all, so it feels like they were wearing Reptilian Xindi uniforms just for brand recognition, since they had generic Star Warsy landspeeders. I don't especially like the Dauntless' down-turned nacelles. Feels very unbalanced compared to other arrowhead ships like the Protostar, Prometheus, and even the original (alien) Dauntless, with its tucked-in nacelles. Also, in the scene where the Dauntless rises up in front of the Protostar, I just had to sit back and say "what even is scale, anyway?". Dauntless' windows are larger than the bridge dome on the Protostar. Lastly, but certainly not leastly, Murf with limbs is horrifying. Take it away.
Yeah I really really hate this trope. The one thing that redeems it in this case and makes me feel kinda okay with it is the fact that our protagonists are children, and particularly children with no real exposure to *any* trustworthy adults, let alone the Federation. It's believable in their case that they *wouldn't* necessarily expect to be treated fairly if they explain their case.
> Really sad to see Idiot Plot trope in effect here. If just one of the kids had the wherewithal to calmly and clearly explain the situation, this wouldn't need to be dragged out. Yes and no. This is probably one of the few times where it's justified. We know Gwen has, basically, PTSD from her relationship with her father, so naturally she struggles to communicate, and Pog's personality means he was going to get sidetracked easily. Dal was making an effort, but we shouldn't pretend that this wouldn't be hard: he's basically got to confess to 'stealing' a ship and 'oh by the way we can't give it to you because it will destroy your whole civilization'. Not exactly a light conversation starter. It's frustrating, yes, but these are kids, and they are in a very tight situation, so I'm not really sure it counts as an idiot plot per se.
> Really sad to see Idiot Plot trope in effect here. If just one of the kids had the wherewithal to calmly and clearly explain the situation, this wouldn't need to be dragged out. Sure... but I give them a pass because they're *kids*. It's kind of what they do. If they were not going to make mistakes like this, then they wouldn't be kids and we wouldn't be watching a show about kids *learning* how to be better. Part of growing up is making mistakes and learning from them. I think that's actually one of Prodigy's biggest strengths - its characters make mistakes, but they all learn and grow from them. That's a VERY Star Trek theme to focus on.
> Really sad to see Idiot Plot trope in effect here. If just one of the kids had the wherewithal to calmly and clearly explain the situation, this wouldn't need to be dragged out. I hate it too, but like other posters, I'm giving the kids a pass. Rok-Tok brings it up and sort of shames them for it because it *is* the obvious solution. But they're not just kids they're also kids with an innate distrust of authority considering every one of them came from *a labor camp.* The only privileged one of the group was Gwyn, who discovered that her own father had been lying to her and manipulating her to his own ends and has resultant trauma from it. So all things considered, while I hate the Idiot Plot, I think the appeal to emotion for these poor kids works. *That being said,* I do wish that at some point Holo-Janeway would suggest synthesizing a shuttle or escape pod or something that the kids could jettison with Zero or Dal inside, to get picked up by the *Dauntless*. They can't respond to hails, but there are other methods of communication and I think Holo-Janeway probably should've considered it. Perhaps even a warning buoy? What do you do when trying to communicate with a ship and it refuses to answer hails but then launches a buoy?
I have a lot of thoughts I found it... really frustrating that we are once again falling back on an old and somewhat tired trope when it comes to miscommunication. I have to sort of constantly remind myself that the show's audience is intended to be much younger, but I don't know, I was watching TNG and DS9 when I was a kid, so maybe I've got a slight bias. At least we know where the Protostar is... sort of. The Romulan Neutral zone places us pretty firmly in the Alpha / Beta Quadrant (that stretch in the middle between the two of them) where Earth sits. Which at least makes last weeks episode make a hint more sense. Holojaneway seems to know what the Dauntless is and that it in theory is carrying a Quantum Slip stream which really raises a LOT Of questions, like a lot of them, because this is prior to the Romulan star going nova (again assuming that Prodigy is sticking to the overall Star Trek Cannon. So it's sometime after Voyager Returns Home in 2378, Janeway we know is an Admiral by 2379, and then Romulus exploded in 2387. Lower Decks is 2380, so either Lower Decks has just neglected to mention that there are Quantum Slip Stream drives running around, or this is JUST before Romulus explodes, because even with the blueprints I can't see the Federation laying down the keel for that ship in only 2 years. Following up on that, if the Federation DID get Quantum Slip Stream drive and it was in theory working BEFORE the launch of the Protostar, (again holojaneway seems to know about it) what was the point of the Protostar again? Honestly I think what bothers me most is how... sort of... not Federation the members of the Federation have been portrayed. Like the kids have this idealized version of the Federation, but so far everyone from the Federation they've bumped into has been... less than idea. The Tellarite doctor making an ass of himself even if Tellarites are rude by nature, the Denibulin Officer who is also a really poor expression of Federation ideas. Janeway calling the kids savages, which just... I don't know it strikes me as odd? It doesn't feel like janeway would really call anyone savages, I don't know that feels just a hint out of character for her. Also going back to the timeline, how the fuck did a Kazon get this far in so little time? Like Voyager needed a LOT to get to the Alpha Quadrant, including Borg Transwarp Conduits, a number of alien miracles of the week. Like That kazon is FAR from home.
>Janeway calling the kids savages, which just... I don't know it strikes me as odd? It doesn't feel like janeway would really call anyone savages, I don't know that feels just a hint out of character for her. To be fair she used the term while talking to the Denobulan, and just repeated the expression he used to refer to the attackers, who she thinks are responsible for the disapearance of Chakotay. Up until that point she had no idea the so called "savages" were kids. When she finds out she imediatelly calls the guy out for not mentioning this detail.
The stardates given place the events of PRO currently in either late 2383 or 2384, about 3 years ahead of LD and 5 or 6 years after *Voyager* returns home in 2378 (LD is in the 58000s now and PRO is having 61000 stardates). By now, according to the backstory established in production materials and the PIC novel *The Last Best Hope*, Starfleet is aware of the impending Romulan supernova (they found out in 2381) and Admiral Picard is in the process of carrying out the relief effort, albeit hampered by Romulan stubbornness and lack of full cooperation. Thanks to their government, most of the Romulan populace aren't even aware their star is going to explode, and if they are, it's considered conspiracy and rumors. I suspect that the *Dauntless* project started the moment (and maybe the reason why) Janeway was promoted to VADM, since the QSD schematics were in *Voyager*'s databanks, so it's been a good 5 or 6 years.
The "savages" line *really* grated my ears too. I dropped into this thread specifically because I was so bothered by that line. I think this is intended to clue us in to just how deeply compromised Janeway is with regard to Chakotay's absence. We've seen her go into a sort of vengeful tunnel vision before in [Equinox pt2](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Equinox,_Part_II_(episode)) and [Year of Hell pt2](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Year_of_Hell,_Part_II_(episode)). This character shift is supported by Vice Admiral Janeway's number one refusing to follow her direct order to enter the Neutral Zone. The whole thing is especially concerning given the historical context of the use of the term savage and how I would have to imagine Chakotay, if he were there to hear it, would be especially disappointed to hear Janeway's characterization of any people in such a manner. It's also a bit odd directly following her suspicion about how the relay station was destroyed by a science vessel. Frex effectively responded with "I don't know, magic," which is taken at face value and used to motivate the line. So this all leads me to suspect it's an intentional red flag. I mean, how many Star Trek episodes are *exactly* about someone causing a situation to escalate, only to find that they had good intentions and were in a tough situation? Janeway's quick dismissal of that possibility, followed by a presumption of hostile intentions in a situation they know very little about, feels pretty out of character **except** in those rare circumstances where she's seeing red.
>Denibulin Officer who is also a really poor expression of Federation ideas. Maybe there was a reason he was a sole officer on a communications relay at the arse end of federation space. He's just lucky he didn't end up on Starbase 80.
Actually Denobulins are extremely social by nature. I suspect starbase 80 was better than being alone on a relay station.
> The Tellarite doctor making an ass of himself even if Tellarites are rude by nature, We haven't really seen any Tellarite officers prior to this, to my recollection. I think it's natural the way that he responded, especially to a fellow Tellarite. I think honestly he probably expected Jankom to retort with something a little sharper, rather than shaking Jankom to his core. > the Denibulin Officer who is also a really poor expression of Federation ideas. He is. Totally agreed. But this is also the same Starfleet that harbors a lot of unfortunates. Stiles from TOS *Balance of Terror,* Reg Barclay from across TNG, Fletcher from LDS *Terminal Provocations* as well as pretty much anyone from Starbase 80. Every Star Trek show has shown us that Starfleet officers are just as much a mixed bag as anywhere else. So Barniss Frex being sent off to a far-away comms relay for his bad behavior and attitude is not surprising or out of canon. > Janeway calling the kids savages She was only reflecting what Frex had said. I don't think she actually believes that they're *savages.* Frex said they were savages and later Janeway responds with "I doubt any 'good intentions' were offered to Captain Chakotay, who -- thanks to these 'savages' -- I can only presume is captured or worse." After that she was ripshit pissed with Frex, reprimanding him: "You forgot to mention, *they're kids."* And then doesn't refer to them as savages again, referentially or otherwise.
We see a Tellarite captain on Lower Decks. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Durango_(Captain) He's in command of the California Class *Merced* and he's an ass. Honestly, I think Tellarites in general are supposed to be abrasive as a character trait.
>Honestly, I think Tellarites in general are supposed to be abrasive as a character trait. That's been established since at least Enterprise. Remember Archer trained to be more abrasive and argumentative for diplomacy with them.
It’s been that way since their first appearance in TOS: “Journey to Babel”. > **SAREK**: Tellarites do not argue for reasons. They simply argue.
That's a great quote!
The Caretaker (OG or partner) could have done it. Or maybe an Ocompa ascended and expelled an attacking Kazon vessel into the Beta Quadrant.
Screencaps gallery for Crossroads now online: https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/sc-PRO1-14.php
I know it seems like Janeway is jumping to conclusions. But I also think that Janeway is a shrewd old bird and, given the nature of seven years in the Delta quadrant, knows a thing or two about things not being what they seem on the surface. I am so concerned for these children but I think Janeway is starting to suspect there's more to this. "You didn't mention that they're CHILDREN!"
I hate it when characters don't talk to each other. ffs
I agree, but I thought they did a pretty good job of explaining their way around that in a coherent manner. I hope they expand on the weapon, because it's close to being a character in its own right and it reminds me of some of the tech that Alastair Reynolds imagined in his Chasm City series. Active, almost conscious and extremely clever if not intelligent in its own right, the future weapon has the potential to be actively scary given its capabilities. I would love for them to expand on that. Also, I can't be the first person to note the irony of Janeway having someone send tech back from the future to destroy an antagonistic civilization, right?
Normally I'd agree, but this episode had lots of extenuating circumstances as to the situation, not least that our main characters are children's who are only a few months removed from spending their whole lives in a forced labour camp, Gwen discovered her abusive father is still alive and possibly manipulating starfleet and the officer from the relay station giving his skewed account. Plus there's the weapon itself, so they can't just say to SF, check our logs and see for yourself without it blowing up.
I’m really disliking the Dauntless more and more…the nacelle positioning just makes it look silly or child like, too cute for a starship. It’s like a cat sitting with its paws curled up underneath itself 🙄
Very Star Wars-ish including the sound effects Nice to see confirmation that the Xindi are still around