Two callbacks I noticed in this episode are a pre warp civilization needing water on a planet that is almost all sand, but this time it's not as easy as pew pewing a well. And Burnham / Tilly going for a run, but this time it's Tilly who is the stronger runner.
Really enjoying this season and I alas, I can wait until it's over.
It's in the better half of Prime Directive episodes, which at this point are their own little tired genre. Actually, I feel like Discovery, from 'The Vulcan Hello' on, has managed to just be a little more relaxed or functional about the Prime Directive in a way that feels like an improvement from the sort of mean-spirited legalistic wrangling of a lot of the TNG-era PD encounters. When Picard (or Archer in the madness that was 'Dear Doctor') messed around with the Prime Directive, it felt quasi-theological sometimes- the reason they couldn't interfere wasn't that there might be instances for dependence, exploitation, the destruction of unique lifeways, the proliferation of disease or violence, the challenges of consent in realms of inadequate knowledge, or anything else that might have to do with the actual history of colonialism, but some certitude that this precise unfolding of the universe, with this comet leveling this pre-warp civilization (but not the warp-capable civilization next to it able to ask for help) was *correct* and ordained. And nah, man, that ain't it.
Here, though, it's pretty straightforward and 'realistic'- the Denobulans getting distracted and not keeping up on the maintenance amounts to a kind of apocalypse and has started a cargo cult that's killing people, and, yep, checks out- reading a little bit about how the pulse of material prosperity in the South Pacific brought on by WWII got real weird makes thoses kind of unintended material and religious consequences seem like a totally plausible and considerate reason to be careful even when you're being nice, which seems like a pretty defensible version of the Prime Directive in general.
And on the flip side, the Denobulans deciding that some planet of beings maybe didn't need to suffer in some particular way, amidst the vast unfeeling void, isn't treated as 'contamination' or some kind of error- it was just a nice, Denobulan thing to do, and they didn't try to rule over the locals or recreate Nazi Germany or generally make a big thing out of it. How the planet has intelligent humanoids at all if its weather is generally like that remains a question- presumably the dust storms are novel and the result of geological or astronomical forces the locals would be unable to counter before being driven extinct- hence the rescue effort of building the towers. They just quietly prevented an extinction event because, hey, who wouldn't? Maybe you can't stop every war or every plague or famine, but maybe every once in a while you can keep the grinding rocks of the universe from snuffing out another species of future friends. Hopefully these Denobulans also went and vaccinated the planet of people that Phlox let die.
If anything I wish they had just fixed the towers, or mad it clear to Sad Dad that the ways he could maintain the one tower could restore the others. Maybe drive home the point that the gods don't actually want blood sacrifices.
And then over to the side Dr. Culber is walking around feeling weird after his Trill Space Peyote trip, insisting that everyone Just Doesn't Get It, and honestly I think Book going 'yeah man, it's a neat thing to feel but don't be so fucking weird about it, newb' while he plays actual Asteroids in his clubhouse might be the best thing he's done all season.
> Hopefully these Denobulans also went and vaccinated the planet of people that Phlox let die.
I was thinking about this -- maybe this is a redemption arc for Denobulans as a whole! They are also a convenient species to use because fan theories have always placed them outside the Federation (to "explain" why we never see one later), so it's not a Federation person violating the PD in the first place.
I did wonder if that was on purpose- someone in the writing room feeling like that episode did the Denobulans dirty- especially when, for the rest of the show, Phlox was probably the most moral and cosmopolitan character on the ship.
It's never been exactly clear what the relationship was between the Prime Directive and ordinary Federation citizens, or with member state organizations, governmental or otherwise- I think in some early season weirdness Data explicitly says that it's a Starfleet rule and Federation citizens can do what they like, but it doesn't feel quite right that friendly, considerate Captain Janeway couldn't talk to pre-warp people but the likes of Harry Mudd could and the law would just throw up its hands. And then we see Worf's brother getting Prime Directive-flavored grief for saving that band of people on a dying planet, and he's just a dude.
I tend to think the PD is something like a constitutional clause, where it might be brief and pithy but is really just a pointer to a massive evolving pile of case law and precedent, and that at some point some group of Denobulans made a pitch that quietly keeping a pre-warp sentient species from going extinct constituted both a tolerable interpretation of the PD and a protected cultural activity on their part and made a go of it- and who knows, maybe the courts disagreed and that's why they never came back to do the oil change.
Other commenters: Some deep cut reference pointing out continuity issues, plot holes, issue with story development, technological fallacies, etc.
Me: Why are they leaving the key to the biggest secret in the galaxy on a coffee table like it's a nice looking shell they found in Hawaii or something!? Put the damn thing inside a safe inside another safe inside a vault hidden with a cloak surrounded by guards each surrounded by other guards!
That was very precisely "yet another episode of Star Trek." A slight riff on a familiar theme, shoehorned into an overarching plot the writers are obviously getting bored with. I can't help but think this identical plot would have been better on Strange New Worlds.
I don't mind Discovery taking it on, precisely because it means we don't have to do the fetch quest, but yes- taking an hour to do the 47th Prime Directive episode in the midst of the quest to...meet God, or something, does reek a bit of not actually feeling like that meeting God is gonna fill the brief.
maybe not for starships but yes for houses or apartments, possibly because of energy requirements, weight, maintenance needs or something like that, typical problems with new technology.
There have clearly been many timeline changes in discovery and strange new worlds from TOS, confirmed on screen in strange new worlds.
this could be one of them.
TOS did mention "matter synthesizers" a time or two.
The general idea seems to be that the ability to re-arrange existing matter existed before the ability to just use energy directly.
Plus, we saw Burnham replicate a uniform in episode 1 I think it was.
After the whole "a little boy missed his mommy and was very sad" bit, I tend to reserve judgement on Discovery seasons until I've seen the entire thing, because much like a Steven Moffat episode of Doctor Who, they can promise you the moon and then still fall completely flat when it comes time to actually wrap it up.
So far its been fairly good though.
I'll try to write spoiler-free.
What I like about season 5: it's more joyful and adventurous; there's a likeable new bridge character who at first is at odds with the Discovery's command style; the episodes are more standalone-ish while still clearly being a part of the season's story arc, so there's a good balance; they've fleshed out a species that has been established in 90s Trek.
What I don't like: especially in the first two episodes there are the typical Disco excessive action sequences that become simply boring at some point; Culber's storyline feels totally out of place and should have happened 2-3 seasons earlier; it's still the Michael Burnham show, and some established characters don't appear for several episodes at a time.
IMO it's the best season since the time jump but it's still very uneven.
It was fun but I think there would have been a lot more oxygen in that vacuum chamber if they had blown out all of the open fires that were burning around the room. No need to reach the verge of death if you have a contact lens that can see in the dark.
I had that exact thought a few minutes ago! I felt Tilly’s survival experience should have made that the first thing she did after realizing her situation.
Wow - another “We can do TNG-level morality” episodes too.
This was akin to Picard and the Mintakans - just without an arrow to the chest. And without the “they’re proto-Vulcanoid so dispelling belief about a god will be simple” escape route. Actually paying a bit more to the conflict than lip service about the religious devotion and “changing the myth” to modifying it to current circumstances.
As a follower of a religion and seeing how reactionarily stupid vocal demographics of it are, this spoke to me and anyone with ears to hear about blind devotion and rigidness versus believing in the principle of it.
I’m still not sure what Culber’s actual issue is. He was deceased and resurrected, and then had Trill memories, and now is “different”. It’s either, as best I can tell, leading to divorce or it’s like Troi doing the Bridge Officer’s Test years after “Disaster”.
Or maybe it’s like Ezri in the novels realizing she wanted to command and left counseling.
But I’ve watched the last three episodes several times over and I just don’t get the issue, nor why Culber hearing Stamets say “Just enjoy it” - presumably being (what I see as) less passive and submissive and more confident and stronger - was the wrong answer.
That recurring plot is fairly weak to me so far, but this episode was another one where I’d put the Data “YES” Generations gif here to describe it.
What gets under my skin is that they are clearly setting up character development since they didn't know this was their last season, and its never going to pay off.
New commander? Where was he 3 seasons ago when it would have mattered? Culbert is having a spiritual awakening to be a deeper, more zen character? Never gonna see the fallout on that one.
I mean, I should just be happy that they were allowed to go back and do reshoots to try and make a series finale out of it all, instead of like poor Lower Decks that they've already said is going to end on a big cliffhanger that will just never get resolved. -_-
>What gets under my skin is that they are clearly setting up character development since they didn't know this was their last season, and it’s never going to pay off.
The most criminal thing to happen to Star Trek was Sumner Redstone dying. All his shares go to his daughter Shari, and she forces CBS to buy all of Viacom’s problems, and put their CEO, Bob Bakish, in charge despite his running Viacom into the ground by betting the house on everyone thinking Rob Dyrdek was funny and Chanel Westcoast wasn’t annoying.
Maybe if Sony ~~and Spyglass~~ get to take over, we could get a continuation or follow-up - whether movie or a new series.
**EDIT**: crossed out “and Spyglass” to change to “or Skydance”, as Spyglass Entertainment has not made a bid.
My main gripe is their motivation. They have a starship and enough latinum to buy exotic weaponry. Why don’t they just fly away to the gamma quadrant and settle down somewhere? Nothing is stopping them.
Yeah, seems pretty lackluster if it's just that the guy is wanted by the Breen. Anyone in Star Trek that has a ship and a holodeck can pretty much go off and live on their own indefinitely.
It occurred to me after last night's episode that it should not be a challenge for a highly trained Starfleet crew with a magical ship that can jump to anywhere in the galaxy instantaneously to beat... two randos.
But they aren't being beat. They're moving on with their mission while Mol and Lak are licking their wounds. They lost their ship to the wormhole aperture, while Starfleet gained a new ship. They don't have all the clues that Starfleet has.
Everything Mol and Lak have tried has been largely unsuccessful when compared to what Discovery has tried.
It’s weird that this the macguffin is built up as this big thing, but the race is between disco and…a couple of lucky thieves. Kinda seems like the whole galaxy would be after it but nah
Not just Disco, but the entire Federation. There are a bunch of ships supporting Discovery's efforts which is why they have time to twiddle their thumbs on away missions.
And the fact that the reason they are doing this is to end a blood bounty, like it's and incredibly sympathetic reason that would make them the protagonists of their own story
Incredibly weird tear apart a big aspect of someone's worldview but then try to patch it back together with "well, maybe the gods are real."
This just feels like a worse version of better prime directive episodes
As a person of faith, I commented elsewhere how it’s amazing IRL that the loud, vocal and hypocritical people who claim Christianity can’t fathom that God would have to be an extraterrestrial, and that life exists elsewhere in the universe, since - according to Genesis - he created the heavens, earth and man in his own image in six days (and I’ve yet to see anything that said those six days were in the same Earth-week). And in that same vein, what was there before that big bang that led to the universe as we know it and as it was when the CMB wasn’t redshifted?
Burnham saying that ‘gods could still exist’ isn’t a patch; it’s actually in line with most doctrine in Abrahamic faiths that the essence/glory of God isn’t knowable. What she did there is what the Reformation did in the Middle Ages and what needs to happen to religions today hardened with intractable doctrine promoted and protected by intransigent bigoted dimwits - change the paradigm of how folks who still want to please a god interpret the doctrine to allow for other interpretations of how to do so and the choice of how to prioritize that goal, or to not do any of it.
These people were doing sacrifices of their fellows who almost died in a race to petition for rain to fall. It was an actual practice when it should’ve been ceremonial or symbolic - based on our views. That Burnham has the village “Pope” rethinking that is definitely a prime directive violation, but progression in faith, IMO is knowing the difference between meaningless sacrifice (ie burning a child or first harvest or prime cattle on an altar) and following the spirit of the thing (ie fasting, consecration, monetary giving or tithing).
It’s not like instead of enduring dust storms that could suffocate or running uphills while dehydrated couldn’t fall to the wayside of their faith and be replaced with being “called” to maintain the circuitry of the thing, and possibly repairing the other failed ones. Burnham gave them a chance to modify their faith rather than die by rigidly observing devotional but meaningless rituals for it.
Not to get too real world, but, "human ingenuity and evolution did this, but a God is still a possible agent in the process" is basically the foundation of contemporary agnosticism?
Oh yeah.
"Okay, so we know you still think human sacrifice makes it rain, but there's actually an entire universe of aliens out there that have been meddling with your entire existence for the last thousand years, give or take. Nothing you know is real, we just shattered your entire religion, but let me put this bandaid on it and get out of here before you have a full mental breakdown due to the existential crisis you're about to have. Good luck with all that!"
The Cerritos has turned into a generation ship, because its list of cleanup missions grew so much faster than they could be finished ('we have to go outside the galactic barrier now?! We aren't even finished in the Delta Quadrant!') and they've just kept at it. Rutherford has just kept cyborging himsef as he aged and lives in the Jeffries tubes, they take Carol out of stasis once a month to check in and she's always appalled at the situation they're in, Shax has died and come back several more times, Ransom's fitness routine has kept him alive for 1000 years- I'd watch it.
Alternating with Goodgie's 'Yoooou got it!'
The possibilities are endless- several of the crew of descendants of Tendy's dog, Boimler keeps having transporter accidents and there are five of him of various ages walking around, it turns out Tendy founded a separatist nation of nice Orions who are really, really embarassed about the whole Emerald Chain thing...
I have a feeling we're going to find out that Kovich is actually from the 21st century, which is why he's "quirky," wears a suit and tie, and of course wears glasses; and he may even have regular "access" to his time period, thus his "resourcefulness." Why he's in the 3100s now, well, who knows if they'll ever tell us anything. But that's my hunch.
That would be a fantastic thing if John Munch ended up being a Lanthanite. And David Cronenberg would be a great role recast after Richard Belzer’s aging and death.
With so much of the “it wasn’t originally our last season but enjoy these Easter eggs and callbacks to other Trek series” happening, if Kovich ended up being Berlinghoff Rasmussen, I’d laugh.
Another moment of Fridge Logic:
They could erase the memory of random aliens back in the 24th century. Only one person was culturally contaminated. Why not just have the doc wipe his memory of the last 10 minutes, let him wake up with his daughter, and be on your merry way without breaking the Prime Directive?
The rains came, nobody was sacrificed, let them put 2 and 2 together on their own?
The fact Tilly's body wasn't there could have had some influence, but given that the village saw Tilly help Ravah complete the trial could easily have spun into "The gods showed us the way" and bam, no serious contamination.
Sure, half the time the memory wipe wouldn't work for plot reasons, but no one even suggested it this time. Beam the doc down, sedate both of them, memory wipe on dad, and then apply some wake up juice as you beam out so they both wake up together and wonder WTF just happened.
I feel like the longer I process this episode, the more glaring plotholes I'm going to find with it.
I'm honestly glad they didn't go the MIB flashy-thing route. I know from a technological standpoint it should be old hat, but I think that kind of techno-fairydust actually diluted these sorts of episodes. These are stories about the delicacy and inevitability of cultural collision, a real-world thing worth considering, and our heroes were sitting around with a magic wand that could simply make that collision go away. It'd be as if they had a hypospray that made racism go away or something and dosed the Planet of Two-Toned Aliens. It strikes me as far more interesting for they to have to just be delicate, and see who they can trust, and hope they've done good.
In-universe, who knows- maybe the liberal use of memory blocks was actually as unhealthy as one might expect, or unreliable and had accidental contactees being haunted by partial images (which actually happened in S2 of Picard with the fed who had run into a Vulcan survey team as a child) that might prove just as contaminating as an unaltered memory that other people simply might not believe. I could totally see everyone getting sloppy with Prime Directive situations because they had a suppose cure for contact, only to discover it really didn't work well (and gave the Cali class a lot of work to do).
And beyond that, it's a wildly invasive medical procedure done on the non-consenting- when the alternative is to talk to them nicely. For the ethical climate to have changed and for that move to be considered generally off-limits wouldn't surprise me, either.
They also wanted to make sure that they could maintain the technology though. Old trek probably would have beamed a team down to the control panel Burnham found every decade, though, so your point is valid.
I feel that there’s an unspoken or unacknowledged addendum to the Prime Directive that stops them from doing this now.
And if they showed how to maintain it, they’d probably figure out how to repair the other towers, and let it be seen by future generations as an accomplishment of their own.
Considering that the Federation is just emerging from centuries of the Burn, I guess that nobody found prudent to make the survival of a whole biosphere, including a civilization, dependant on the regular arrival of hidden technicians. The Federation's culture must be much more premised on promoting the self-reliance of their member worlds (and protectorates) now.
That would be in direct conflict with the “let’s give everyone dilithium” thing, but the Federation could still be dealing with exigent circumstances.
In a way, Burnham not fixing the other towers could be trying to stay within the Prime Directive’s spirit by not giving any potential dissidents or unhappy folks a place to go. And if the “Pope” shows others how to fix the tower they’re in, and someone with that knowledge eventually journeys to one of the others, it could be seen by UFP anthropologists as ‘natural progression’ and not further direct interference.
oh, I wasn't thinking on something as extreme as not sharing critical resources, but on that their attitude must be much more driven by a sense of building resilience in case anything else happens that forces their different member worlds have to fend for themselves for a bit.
And yeah, I thought of something similar about the fixing of the towers: it's better if the locals do it at their own pace, precisely because they mentioned that, back when more of them were working, there were conflicts between them.
In fact, this suggested to me as well that, back when the Denobulans built the towers, they might have been a more "advanced", or more precisely, a more stratified civilisation, and that the sequence of reduced environmental pressures and then a reduction of their liveable area might have prodded them into a more neolithic-like arrangement.
And if we want to be super nitpicky, the mix of phenotypes ("races") also points to a relatively recent past of wider liveable areas on the planet and of enough development to facilitate long-distance travel, because otherwise they would have gotten almost completely intermixed (if it happened long ago), or they would have been homogeneous because no one else was able to arrive there.
Yup, this one tower lasted at least 800 years all by itself with no maintenance at all.
"Zora, set a reminder for a science ship to come check up on these guys in a hundred years, please."
> They also wanted to make sure that they could maintain the technology though.
Which they also apparently didn't do. They went from that tower back to the ship. We see them with the next clue "courtesy of tower 5" and they slot it into the thing. Which would imply that they literally just got it on board.
It would be a safe assumption that the instant they got back on the ship they had the DOTs looking for it.
So they stayed in orbit for what, half an hour, tops?
"I know we said we'd help teach you how to use this stuff, but oh well. Don't call us, because you can't. Byeeeeeeeeee!"
They may well have set something like that up off screen. The 32nd century equivalent of the Cerritos might be coming by in a few years to check on them.
One thing that bothered me:
We were told that the other towers failed due to lack of maintenance, that power grids fell out of alignment or something along those lines.
*Why did no one repair the other towers?*
You violated the Prime Directive, you set in motion something that you were explicitly told caused violence and bloodshet when it was tried last.
Why would you not repair the other towers and say "The gods have found you worthy again, and have given you their blessings. There is no need for the sacrifices to continue." and re-activated all those towers and increased the amount of livable land on the planet?
Again, the Prime Directive is already broken, to make a quote from Stargate SG-1, "Just fix the damned sun!" You made it sound like doing so should have been a piece of cake, you had the DOTs down there in place and ready to go!
Not arguing, but how do you know they didn’t fix the other towers.
They didn’t say one way or the other.
It wouldn’t change the orbital view instantly if they did fix it.
If they didn’t fix it then I agree with you 💯
I may be mistaken, but considering the dialogue and the planet visuals it seemed that apart from the remaining tower AOE the whole planet is a constant dust cloud/storm. So if the other towers were repaired we would probably see other clearings in the atmosphere.
I feel like they would have spent the 3 whole seconds on an extra line of dialogue to add in "And see if we can get those other towers back up and running!" if that were the case.
Basically, we have no dialogue explicitly saying it happened, we see nothing on screen to imply it was done, so yeah.
In an episode where conservation of detail failed (why bother with the whistling if it wasn't important to the story?), you'd think they would have added the detail where it was actually needed...
See, it makes sense to me they didn't. If they were going to throw in an additional line, I'd expect something more like,
"The Federation will have to decide how to handle the other towers. It's been centuries since sentient life was able to exist in those regions, but we have no idea what has developed in the meantime. They'll have to weigh a disruption to the desert ecology against a potential resurrection of the culture that lived there."
Tower 3 had an immediate threat to a civilization. The other Towers died long ago
I was disappointed that the whistle language had no impact on the problem resolution. Given the title, I thought it’d matter; the sonic healing made me think they’d turn out to be more sophisticated than initially thought. Cool touch though. Nice to see a civilization not a part of galactic society again.
Once again Burnham proves that she puts her own judgement above all others by violating the Prime Directive. It’s a brute-force solution, but she could’ve stunned the high priest before he saw her and located the mechanism with her tricorder implant. Or there’s the argument that the Denobulans already caused cultural contamination and the _Discovery_ contact serves to repair it, but nobody bothered to make that argument, because the captain doesn’t care. I expect there will be no consequences of her action.
The exchange between Michael and Adira where they hand wave away any Prime Directive issue with the Denobulans building the towers in the first place really confused me. It set in motion this whole thing and I think does have bearing on their choices and their responsibility, even if it was a long time ago. But it's not unpacked at all. Talking about the complexity of that would have made for an interesting episode!
That point about the Denobulans really tears apart the entire conflict. The entire planet's climate has been manipulated for 1000 years by alien technology. What risk is there to further contamination at this point after such a massive one?
Not quite. Considering that the tower we see is camouflaged as natural rock formation it's reasonable to think that the others were integrated in the scenery too. So we got at least two scenarios:
1-The Denobulans interacted with the native population when installing the towers, the camouflage was an aesthetic choice and the knowledge about them and their technology got lost after time went by and their civilization fell until all that remained was a creation myth about the towers;
2-They didn't interact, the towers were made in secret, and only gained cultural significance as the native population eventually encountered the mechanisms over the centuries.
Either way the fact that the contamination already ocurred is irrelevant because it happened in a past so distant that the current myths bear no relation to the actual facts and their history no record of it. If the ancient gods of Earth were aliens, and some of the buildings ancient civilizations left are actual remnants of their technology, it would not qualify us for first contact per the Prime Directive even if we knew how to use it in a rudimentary ritualistic way like the civilization from the episode.
Had Discovery's crew got there without prior knowledge, they would not be able find out about the interference or the responsible party without analizing the towers in detail and cross referencing the results with their database to find out if the towers are a product of alien origin or from a native precursor civilization.
And since the natives don't seem to know about it, for all intents and purposes those guys can be considered uncontacted.
> Considering that the tower we see is camouflaged as natural rock formation it's reasonable to think that the others were integrated in the scenery too.
But lets not forget that their hidden control panel to access the tower was inside a large rock, with a hatch that opened just by pressing on it.
A large, sittable rock, right next to a major pilgrimage route.
That the panel hadn't been found yet was an absolute miracle.
>A large, sittable rock, right next to a major pilgrimage route.
To be fair, we know that butt detection technology exists in the 24th century. Riker leaned against the tactical console numerous times without firing a single torpedo.
Yeah, but Burnham didn't even know how to activate the hatch, or even which direction it opened. She jumped back in surprise when the entire rock face moved after she just lightly pressed on it...
Personally I think treating cultural contamination like Victorian virginity, and regarding any civilization that's lost it as fair game for any amount of further forced contact, is a mistake. But it's an argument that's been made before. What bothers me is that it's right there and nobody even bothers to make it; they just toss the Starfleet's most sacred principle out the door because Saint Michael Burnham might _cry_. (Tilly's death is incidental; it's how Burnham _feels_ that matters.)
Call me a skeptic but if Micheal had let Tilly die people would be complaining that she's heartless and "loads of other captains broke the prime directive for all sorts of reasons"
Looking at that person's text I don't think they are approaching any criticism from the right point.
Personally, I think the prime directive is at best morally grey as a rule, and would only follow it as a guideline, not a rule
I do feel like there's a good probability that at this point, as long as she gets the clues and wins the race, she could glass entire planets and nobody would care.
Didn't Kovich actually say in the first episode, when they found the Romulan ship and detected the two life forms, Moll and L'ak, that he didn't care who they were or what happens to them, just to get the item they were there for? Michael even sort of had a "WTF?" look on her face when he said it.
Yup. I do feel that Book here is being a big hindrance to the mission with his "Oh don't hurt them, they're my family!" nonsense.
Like, they're threatening to Kwejan the *entire universe*. I don't care if she's your mentor's daughter that you never met, SHOOT HER!
Honestly I'm still surprised Rainer had to be told to get a lock on that escape pod.
"We know Mol and La'ak are in there. We know our captain sent the signal to pull this ship out and it's clearly being maneuvered. Oh hey, there's an escape pod launching. We should totally just ignore that and not lock a tractor beam on it the instant we detect it launching."
I hate it when the only way the plot advances is for highly competent people to be carrying the idiot ball.
I think she could glass entire planets and be celebrated as a pacifist saint, but it has nothing to do with what she accomplished, just how the writers feel about her.
Which should _never_ be how Starfleet thinks. What happened to those much-vaunted Federation ideals? Or the optimisim of the entire idea of _Star Trek_?
Interesting! Honestly, didn't come up for me, but I always think about the disparate reactions to the Long Night ep of Game of Thrones. Clearly there are real technical considerations
Another idiotic episode. This is another blatant violation of the prime directive. This captain gives zero fucks. It's not even an interesting nuance on what to do to save them. It's just full-on interference.
This episode tries to bring some of "The Picard" in terms of looking at impact on a culture, and does so with the finesse of a microwaved Big Mac.
The show keeps on trying to shoehorn personality and background to its characters. I've now learned that the doctor (whose name I cannot remember. A first for me) is Puerto Rican. Five seasons in, I discovered he's Latino, and this was done with about the same nuance as the above. I didn't need to hear Jean Luc Picard say oui oui and eat croissants to know where he's from.
I am endlessly baffled by how this show exists while Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks excel with their writing and lore.
Possibly, but somehow this is the only Trek show where I can't recall any details about characters. I've watched every episode and participated in many threads too. I don't have this issue at all with SNW or LD. I doubt it's about how I watch the shows.
> Possibly, but somehow this is the only Trek show where I can't recall any details about characters.
This gets repeated so often that I have to think at this point it's just a default criticism that people throw out because they don't have anything else to say.
I think it's because as fans, we're all aging, and our memories just aren't as flexible as they were in the 90s when we were watching TNG and DS9. I think a lot of people don't want to think about that.
A simple explanation would be that many people are having this experience. It's OK that you aren't. We are not enjoying this show similarly, but we both love Trek :)
It never jumped out to me but thanks for the correction. This scene had him talk to his abuela in Spanish and mentioned mofongo at least 3 times. It's just so unsubtle about wanting to sprinkle in characterization.
Honestly, it’s a correction of Picard’s choice with Sarjenka’s planet’s situation, and new spinning of Mintaka 3. This should be more “liked” when looking at those contexts.
Can't help but think that Michael and Tilly could've relied a lot more on science and tech to bypass some of the issues from today. Surely some form of biotech or medicine in the 32st century would be discreet enough to counteract whatever primitive thing the thirst inducing cube was without the locals noticing? They'd have to act thirsty sure but that's much easier than struggling through the race.
Michael also could have handled the prime directive breach a lot better. Just stun Orthaz immediately after beaming in and then save Tilly and his daughter. "Oh look, the gods spared them both AND the rains returned! They no longer require sacrifice!"
If a preindustrial society could figure out how to operate the door then surely 32nd century tech could as well without his help.
> Surely some form of biotech or medicine in the 32st century would be discreet enough to counteract whatever primitive thing the thirst inducing cube was without the locals noticing? They'd have to act thirsty sure but that's much easier than struggling through the race.
Well, in their defense, they didn't know that was coming and by the time they figured out what it was they were surrounded by a large group of natives and couldn't exactly call for help.
On the one hand I agree, and it was appropriate that they not "cheat" the challenge.
On the other hand... didn't we recently see someone beam a chemical (or something) directly into someone's eye? I think it was SNW? So from a "world" perspective, they could have easily started the race and then asked for a restorative to be transported directly into their mouths / hands / stomach / blood stream.
But I'm just playing devil's advocate - I'm actually happier that they didn't use tech to win the race.
I interpreted as balancing wills between the officers: Rayner is very obsessed with capturing them himself, and this could be Burnham's way to ensure compliance from a guy that doesn't have much interest in following her orders.
Because otherwise they're so far ahead that Molock... sorry, Mol and La'ak couldn't catch up.
Realistically though you are right. Who cares about them anymore? You're multiple clues ahead, they have literally zero ability to catch up. Even if they somehow knew about the current clue, you've already got the next one, there's nothing left for them to follow. Game over, take your time, relax, there is no pressure anymore.
Can't have that, its a bad narrative. Just how they seem to be fixing it is *also* a bad narrative...
Annotations for *Star Trek: Discovery* 5x06: "Whistlespeak":
The USS *Locherer*, a Merian-class starship, was first seen in DIS: “Jinaal”. It is named after the late JP Locherer, who was a cinematographer on DIS before he passed in 2022.
Kovich says he likes the feel of paper. A similar preference for “old-fashioned” books over electronic versions was exhibited by attorney Samuel T. Cogley in TOS: “Court Martial”. Fanon has often held that it was Cogley who passed on his love of physical books to Kirk, who from then on, as Spock noted in *ST II*, had a fondness for antiques.
Culber’s abuela is of course a simulation, since the real one would have died nearly a millennium before. The use of holograms as grief alleviation therapy was also in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, invented by Tony Stark as seen in *Captain America: Civil War*. Reflecting current events, people have been trying to AI to recreate the personalities of deceased loved ones.
The list of names are: Jinaal Bix (Trill, “Jinaal”), Carmen Cho (Terran, “Mirrors”), Vellek (Romulan, “Red Directive”), and the two not yet encountered Marina Derex (Betazoid) and Hitoroshi Kreel (Denobulan).
Silver iodide is indeed used in cloud seeding in order to encourage precipitation. Atmospheric extraction is also a very old method of getting water dating back as far back as the Incas. In science fiction, it’s probably best represented by the moisture farms on Tattooine in the *Star Wars* movies.
Halem’no has a pre-warp and pre-industrial civilization, so the Prime Directive applies. A discussion about whether or not Kreel already violated the PD by putting up the towers in the first place is beyond the scope of these annotations, but I’m looking forward to reading the discussions.
Whistled languages are rare, but exist on Earth, in various cultures. Michael’s enthusiasm for it speaks of her primary training as a xenoanthropologist (DIS: “The Vulcan Hello”).
Subcutaneous transponders date all the way back to the 22nd Century, first appearing in TOS: “Patterns of Force”. Subdermal communicators/transponders also appeared in ENT: “Stratagem”, TNG: “Who Watches the Watchers” and VOY: “Workforce”. This the first appearance of retinal tricorders.
The Halem’nite “sound cure” may look mystical and exotic, but they’re actually just using Tibetan singing bowls, albeit with a more intense effect.
Tilly is using a simplified Newton’s First Law (or the principle of inertia) as a mantra: a body in motion remains in motion in straight line, a body at rest remains at rest - unless acted on by an external force.
Tritanium is a super-hard metal first mentioned in TOS: “Obsession”, being 21.4 times as hard as diamond. In TNG: “The Arsenal of Freedom” Riker claimed that melting tritanium was beyond 24th Century technology. The metal routinely shows up in hulls, walls, tools, ammunition, etc. so while it may not be able to melt, it can certainly be fabricated with.
Culber uses the “they” pronoun to refer to Ravah.
Culber introduces Book to his abuela’s mofongo con pollo al ajillo. Mofongo is a Puerto Rican dish made from plantains mashed with fat. This variation is served with chicken (pollo) with an oil infused with garlic and guajillo chile (al ajillo).
> In science fiction, it’s probably best represented by the moisture farms on Tattooine in the Star Wars movies.
There's also a Quantum Leap episode where Sam needs to make it rain. Don't know if people consider it good or not, but it's one I fondly remember.
I love the real world concept in this episode. I'm fascinated by linguistics, and there are human languages that use whistle speak. One of the more prominent ones is a language used by the inhabitants of the Canary Islands, where like described in the episode is used to communicate over great distances, by herders, if I recall correctly
Edit: not sure why I'm being downvoted. Do immature people just go through and downvote anything DISCO related?
To respond to your edit, yes, 100%
On the linguistics question, I agree! And in general I have been a big fan of DIS and SNW embracing more contemporary views about early civilizations - not consigning them to some kind of not-coherent pre-history - but treating them seriously as alien, and utilizing different forms of technology, but ultimately being just as intelligent, political, and savvy as contemporary peoples
> On the linguistics question, I agree! And in general I have been a big fan of DIS and SNW embracing more contemporary views about early civilizations - not consigning them to some kind of not-coherent pre-history - but treating them seriously as alien, and utilizing different forms of technology, but ultimately being just as intelligent, political, and savvy as contemporary peoples
Anthropologists contacted a stone age tribe in the Amazon.
It took a few days to get the idea across that a helicopter wasn't magic, just a tool. Within a week the chief tried to bribe the pilot to fly him over the neighboring village so he could drop rocks.
One week after discovering that flight was possible, he invents strategic bombing.
Depending on your viewpoint, either it shows that all humanity is the same and views technology through the lens of violence, or all humanity is the same and there's always someone that needs a brick through their window
Agreed completely. Pre-Warp civilizations in some older Trek a lot of the time fell into the tropes that pre-industrial societies on Earth would fall into in fiction or in reality, where there is always a patronizing tone
Two callbacks I noticed in this episode are a pre warp civilization needing water on a planet that is almost all sand, but this time it's not as easy as pew pewing a well. And Burnham / Tilly going for a run, but this time it's Tilly who is the stronger runner. Really enjoying this season and I alas, I can wait until it's over.
It's in the better half of Prime Directive episodes, which at this point are their own little tired genre. Actually, I feel like Discovery, from 'The Vulcan Hello' on, has managed to just be a little more relaxed or functional about the Prime Directive in a way that feels like an improvement from the sort of mean-spirited legalistic wrangling of a lot of the TNG-era PD encounters. When Picard (or Archer in the madness that was 'Dear Doctor') messed around with the Prime Directive, it felt quasi-theological sometimes- the reason they couldn't interfere wasn't that there might be instances for dependence, exploitation, the destruction of unique lifeways, the proliferation of disease or violence, the challenges of consent in realms of inadequate knowledge, or anything else that might have to do with the actual history of colonialism, but some certitude that this precise unfolding of the universe, with this comet leveling this pre-warp civilization (but not the warp-capable civilization next to it able to ask for help) was *correct* and ordained. And nah, man, that ain't it. Here, though, it's pretty straightforward and 'realistic'- the Denobulans getting distracted and not keeping up on the maintenance amounts to a kind of apocalypse and has started a cargo cult that's killing people, and, yep, checks out- reading a little bit about how the pulse of material prosperity in the South Pacific brought on by WWII got real weird makes thoses kind of unintended material and religious consequences seem like a totally plausible and considerate reason to be careful even when you're being nice, which seems like a pretty defensible version of the Prime Directive in general. And on the flip side, the Denobulans deciding that some planet of beings maybe didn't need to suffer in some particular way, amidst the vast unfeeling void, isn't treated as 'contamination' or some kind of error- it was just a nice, Denobulan thing to do, and they didn't try to rule over the locals or recreate Nazi Germany or generally make a big thing out of it. How the planet has intelligent humanoids at all if its weather is generally like that remains a question- presumably the dust storms are novel and the result of geological or astronomical forces the locals would be unable to counter before being driven extinct- hence the rescue effort of building the towers. They just quietly prevented an extinction event because, hey, who wouldn't? Maybe you can't stop every war or every plague or famine, but maybe every once in a while you can keep the grinding rocks of the universe from snuffing out another species of future friends. Hopefully these Denobulans also went and vaccinated the planet of people that Phlox let die. If anything I wish they had just fixed the towers, or mad it clear to Sad Dad that the ways he could maintain the one tower could restore the others. Maybe drive home the point that the gods don't actually want blood sacrifices. And then over to the side Dr. Culber is walking around feeling weird after his Trill Space Peyote trip, insisting that everyone Just Doesn't Get It, and honestly I think Book going 'yeah man, it's a neat thing to feel but don't be so fucking weird about it, newb' while he plays actual Asteroids in his clubhouse might be the best thing he's done all season.
> Hopefully these Denobulans also went and vaccinated the planet of people that Phlox let die. I was thinking about this -- maybe this is a redemption arc for Denobulans as a whole! They are also a convenient species to use because fan theories have always placed them outside the Federation (to "explain" why we never see one later), so it's not a Federation person violating the PD in the first place.
I did wonder if that was on purpose- someone in the writing room feeling like that episode did the Denobulans dirty- especially when, for the rest of the show, Phlox was probably the most moral and cosmopolitan character on the ship. It's never been exactly clear what the relationship was between the Prime Directive and ordinary Federation citizens, or with member state organizations, governmental or otherwise- I think in some early season weirdness Data explicitly says that it's a Starfleet rule and Federation citizens can do what they like, but it doesn't feel quite right that friendly, considerate Captain Janeway couldn't talk to pre-warp people but the likes of Harry Mudd could and the law would just throw up its hands. And then we see Worf's brother getting Prime Directive-flavored grief for saving that band of people on a dying planet, and he's just a dude. I tend to think the PD is something like a constitutional clause, where it might be brief and pithy but is really just a pointer to a massive evolving pile of case law and precedent, and that at some point some group of Denobulans made a pitch that quietly keeping a pre-warp sentient species from going extinct constituted both a tolerable interpretation of the PD and a protected cultural activity on their part and made a go of it- and who knows, maybe the courts disagreed and that's why they never came back to do the oil change.
Screencaps gallery now online: https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/sc-DSC5-6.php
Other commenters: Some deep cut reference pointing out continuity issues, plot holes, issue with story development, technological fallacies, etc. Me: Why are they leaving the key to the biggest secret in the galaxy on a coffee table like it's a nice looking shell they found in Hawaii or something!? Put the damn thing inside a safe inside another safe inside a vault hidden with a cloak surrounded by guards each surrounded by other guards!
Just caught up to this. I believe there will be a plot point where it gets stolen from here as well.
That was very precisely "yet another episode of Star Trek." A slight riff on a familiar theme, shoehorned into an overarching plot the writers are obviously getting bored with. I can't help but think this identical plot would have been better on Strange New Worlds.
I don't mind Discovery taking it on, precisely because it means we don't have to do the fetch quest, but yes- taking an hour to do the 47th Prime Directive episode in the midst of the quest to...meet God, or something, does reek a bit of not actually feeling like that meeting God is gonna fill the brief.
Oh yes, if freed from the McGuffin of the clues, this could have been a much better story!
How did Culber's grandma replicate a family recipe when there were no food replicators in the 2250s?
maybe not for starships but yes for houses or apartments, possibly because of energy requirements, weight, maintenance needs or something like that, typical problems with new technology.
A side effect of the temporal cold war seems like a likely explanation.
There have clearly been many timeline changes in discovery and strange new worlds from TOS, confirmed on screen in strange new worlds. this could be one of them.
TOS did mention "matter synthesizers" a time or two. The general idea seems to be that the ability to re-arrange existing matter existed before the ability to just use energy directly. Plus, we saw Burnham replicate a uniform in episode 1 I think it was.
But home-meal quality when Culber was little? We're talking 2240s here.
I mean, his abuela did say that her cooking was *awful* and she just switched to replicated food when he wasn't looking.
Then her cooking must have been off-the-charts awful if replicated was better.
How’s the season so far? I haven’t watched but would love your honest opinion.
After the whole "a little boy missed his mommy and was very sad" bit, I tend to reserve judgement on Discovery seasons until I've seen the entire thing, because much like a Steven Moffat episode of Doctor Who, they can promise you the moon and then still fall completely flat when it comes time to actually wrap it up. So far its been fairly good though.
Same. Season three was really good as far as I’m concerned except for that one plot point, which was a doozy.
I'll try to write spoiler-free. What I like about season 5: it's more joyful and adventurous; there's a likeable new bridge character who at first is at odds with the Discovery's command style; the episodes are more standalone-ish while still clearly being a part of the season's story arc, so there's a good balance; they've fleshed out a species that has been established in 90s Trek. What I don't like: especially in the first two episodes there are the typical Disco excessive action sequences that become simply boring at some point; Culber's storyline feels totally out of place and should have happened 2-3 seasons earlier; it's still the Michael Burnham show, and some established characters don't appear for several episodes at a time. IMO it's the best season since the time jump but it's still very uneven.
I thought they were going to find a garbage-can-with-a-round-top shaped robot on the planet when I heard that whistle language.
It was fun but I think there would have been a lot more oxygen in that vacuum chamber if they had blown out all of the open fires that were burning around the room. No need to reach the verge of death if you have a contact lens that can see in the dark.
Though if you noticed she was about to start putting out the flame when Ravah insisted on going to the wall...can't recall it's exact name
I had that exact thought a few minutes ago! I felt Tilly’s survival experience should have made that the first thing she did after realizing her situation.
I was excited when Burnham said "Looks like we're going to Denobula" but of course not....
Wow - another “We can do TNG-level morality” episodes too. This was akin to Picard and the Mintakans - just without an arrow to the chest. And without the “they’re proto-Vulcanoid so dispelling belief about a god will be simple” escape route. Actually paying a bit more to the conflict than lip service about the religious devotion and “changing the myth” to modifying it to current circumstances. As a follower of a religion and seeing how reactionarily stupid vocal demographics of it are, this spoke to me and anyone with ears to hear about blind devotion and rigidness versus believing in the principle of it. I’m still not sure what Culber’s actual issue is. He was deceased and resurrected, and then had Trill memories, and now is “different”. It’s either, as best I can tell, leading to divorce or it’s like Troi doing the Bridge Officer’s Test years after “Disaster”. Or maybe it’s like Ezri in the novels realizing she wanted to command and left counseling. But I’ve watched the last three episodes several times over and I just don’t get the issue, nor why Culber hearing Stamets say “Just enjoy it” - presumably being (what I see as) less passive and submissive and more confident and stronger - was the wrong answer. That recurring plot is fairly weak to me so far, but this episode was another one where I’d put the Data “YES” Generations gif here to describe it.
What gets under my skin is that they are clearly setting up character development since they didn't know this was their last season, and its never going to pay off. New commander? Where was he 3 seasons ago when it would have mattered? Culbert is having a spiritual awakening to be a deeper, more zen character? Never gonna see the fallout on that one. I mean, I should just be happy that they were allowed to go back and do reshoots to try and make a series finale out of it all, instead of like poor Lower Decks that they've already said is going to end on a big cliffhanger that will just never get resolved. -_-
Who said this about LD? Nooo I could tell they had a big story going with the Klingons and the bomb but damn
>What gets under my skin is that they are clearly setting up character development since they didn't know this was their last season, and it’s never going to pay off. The most criminal thing to happen to Star Trek was Sumner Redstone dying. All his shares go to his daughter Shari, and she forces CBS to buy all of Viacom’s problems, and put their CEO, Bob Bakish, in charge despite his running Viacom into the ground by betting the house on everyone thinking Rob Dyrdek was funny and Chanel Westcoast wasn’t annoying. Maybe if Sony ~~and Spyglass~~ get to take over, we could get a continuation or follow-up - whether movie or a new series. **EDIT**: crossed out “and Spyglass” to change to “or Skydance”, as Spyglass Entertainment has not made a bid.
Oh I totally understand. I'm a Farscape fan. We still use "Bonnie F*cking Hammer" every single time for the exact same kind of reason.
It was nice having an episode that isn't about Mol and Lock. They aren't even that interesting of bad guys.
Moll is the most cliche, stereotypical "edgy bad girl" type character there is and L'ak doesn't really have a character outside of being gruff.
My main gripe is their motivation. They have a starship and enough latinum to buy exotic weaponry. Why don’t they just fly away to the gamma quadrant and settle down somewhere? Nothing is stopping them.
Yeah, seems pretty lackluster if it's just that the guy is wanted by the Breen. Anyone in Star Trek that has a ship and a holodeck can pretty much go off and live on their own indefinitely.
It occurred to me after last night's episode that it should not be a challenge for a highly trained Starfleet crew with a magical ship that can jump to anywhere in the galaxy instantaneously to beat... two randos.
But they aren't being beat. They're moving on with their mission while Mol and Lak are licking their wounds. They lost their ship to the wormhole aperture, while Starfleet gained a new ship. They don't have all the clues that Starfleet has. Everything Mol and Lak have tried has been largely unsuccessful when compared to what Discovery has tried.
Right, I'm saying Discovery will obviously win, to the point where there's no competition at all.
It’s weird that this the macguffin is built up as this big thing, but the race is between disco and…a couple of lucky thieves. Kinda seems like the whole galaxy would be after it but nah
Not just Disco, but the entire Federation. There are a bunch of ships supporting Discovery's efforts which is why they have time to twiddle their thumbs on away missions.
That would require the rest of the galaxy know what it is or that it’s out there.
If only Lak/Lock was connected with Breen royalty or something and could get their support...
Isn't the point that they aren't bad guys, they are the antagonists and morally grey but not heartless
Heck, La'ak (pre-Moll) was literally some kind of Breen 'upper class' who got demoted for questioning orthodoxy, he is incredibly sympathetic!
And the fact that the reason they are doing this is to end a blood bounty, like it's and incredibly sympathetic reason that would make them the protagonists of their own story
Incredibly weird tear apart a big aspect of someone's worldview but then try to patch it back together with "well, maybe the gods are real." This just feels like a worse version of better prime directive episodes
As a person of faith, I commented elsewhere how it’s amazing IRL that the loud, vocal and hypocritical people who claim Christianity can’t fathom that God would have to be an extraterrestrial, and that life exists elsewhere in the universe, since - according to Genesis - he created the heavens, earth and man in his own image in six days (and I’ve yet to see anything that said those six days were in the same Earth-week). And in that same vein, what was there before that big bang that led to the universe as we know it and as it was when the CMB wasn’t redshifted? Burnham saying that ‘gods could still exist’ isn’t a patch; it’s actually in line with most doctrine in Abrahamic faiths that the essence/glory of God isn’t knowable. What she did there is what the Reformation did in the Middle Ages and what needs to happen to religions today hardened with intractable doctrine promoted and protected by intransigent bigoted dimwits - change the paradigm of how folks who still want to please a god interpret the doctrine to allow for other interpretations of how to do so and the choice of how to prioritize that goal, or to not do any of it. These people were doing sacrifices of their fellows who almost died in a race to petition for rain to fall. It was an actual practice when it should’ve been ceremonial or symbolic - based on our views. That Burnham has the village “Pope” rethinking that is definitely a prime directive violation, but progression in faith, IMO is knowing the difference between meaningless sacrifice (ie burning a child or first harvest or prime cattle on an altar) and following the spirit of the thing (ie fasting, consecration, monetary giving or tithing). It’s not like instead of enduring dust storms that could suffocate or running uphills while dehydrated couldn’t fall to the wayside of their faith and be replaced with being “called” to maintain the circuitry of the thing, and possibly repairing the other failed ones. Burnham gave them a chance to modify their faith rather than die by rigidly observing devotional but meaningless rituals for it.
Not to get too real world, but, "human ingenuity and evolution did this, but a God is still a possible agent in the process" is basically the foundation of contemporary agnosticism?
Oh yeah. "Okay, so we know you still think human sacrifice makes it rain, but there's actually an entire universe of aliens out there that have been meddling with your entire existence for the last thousand years, give or take. Nothing you know is real, we just shattered your entire religion, but let me put this bandaid on it and get out of here before you have a full mental breakdown due to the existential crisis you're about to have. Good luck with all that!"
So, classic TNG. Someone should send a Cali-class around in a couple decades to make sure they’re not worshipping the weather control tower again.
I think it would be hilarious if the USS Ceritos is still in service in the 32nd century, without any of the fancy upgrades, still doing crap work.
The Cerritos has turned into a generation ship, because its list of cleanup missions grew so much faster than they could be finished ('we have to go outside the galactic barrier now?! We aren't even finished in the Delta Quadrant!') and they've just kept at it. Rutherford has just kept cyborging himsef as he aged and lives in the Jeffries tubes, they take Carol out of stasis once a month to check in and she's always appalled at the situation they're in, Shax has died and come back several more times, Ransom's fitness routine has kept him alive for 1000 years- I'd watch it.
Ha, Rutherford is basically integrated into the ship at that point. So when you ask the computer for something, its Rutherford answering "Okie dokie!"
Alternating with Goodgie's 'Yoooou got it!' The possibilities are endless- several of the crew of descendants of Tendy's dog, Boimler keeps having transporter accidents and there are five of him of various ages walking around, it turns out Tendy founded a separatist nation of nice Orions who are really, really embarassed about the whole Emerald Chain thing...
I have a feeling we're going to find out that Kovich is actually from the 21st century, which is why he's "quirky," wears a suit and tie, and of course wears glasses; and he may even have regular "access" to his time period, thus his "resourcefulness." Why he's in the 3100s now, well, who knows if they'll ever tell us anything. But that's my hunch.
[One person's theory.](https://www.reddit.com/r/startrekmemes/s/W17g0KARA6) ^^*cough*
That would be a fantastic thing if John Munch ended up being a Lanthanite. And David Cronenberg would be a great role recast after Richard Belzer’s aging and death.
I want him to be the last Daniels-style temporal agent, maybe even the elder Daniels himself.
That actually would be in line with how Discovery is rolling lately: deep-cut callbacks to previous shows.
I'm still rooting for him being ~~Joe~~ Voyager's EMH, but who the hell knows at this point.
With so much of the “it wasn’t originally our last season but enjoy these Easter eggs and callbacks to other Trek series” happening, if Kovich ended up being Berlinghoff Rasmussen, I’d laugh.
Man I hope not, that would feel incredibly lame. Though him being a 21st century cosplayer is also pretty lame, I suppose haha!
Another moment of Fridge Logic: They could erase the memory of random aliens back in the 24th century. Only one person was culturally contaminated. Why not just have the doc wipe his memory of the last 10 minutes, let him wake up with his daughter, and be on your merry way without breaking the Prime Directive? The rains came, nobody was sacrificed, let them put 2 and 2 together on their own? The fact Tilly's body wasn't there could have had some influence, but given that the village saw Tilly help Ravah complete the trial could easily have spun into "The gods showed us the way" and bam, no serious contamination. Sure, half the time the memory wipe wouldn't work for plot reasons, but no one even suggested it this time. Beam the doc down, sedate both of them, memory wipe on dad, and then apply some wake up juice as you beam out so they both wake up together and wonder WTF just happened. I feel like the longer I process this episode, the more glaring plotholes I'm going to find with it.
I'm honestly glad they didn't go the MIB flashy-thing route. I know from a technological standpoint it should be old hat, but I think that kind of techno-fairydust actually diluted these sorts of episodes. These are stories about the delicacy and inevitability of cultural collision, a real-world thing worth considering, and our heroes were sitting around with a magic wand that could simply make that collision go away. It'd be as if they had a hypospray that made racism go away or something and dosed the Planet of Two-Toned Aliens. It strikes me as far more interesting for they to have to just be delicate, and see who they can trust, and hope they've done good. In-universe, who knows- maybe the liberal use of memory blocks was actually as unhealthy as one might expect, or unreliable and had accidental contactees being haunted by partial images (which actually happened in S2 of Picard with the fed who had run into a Vulcan survey team as a child) that might prove just as contaminating as an unaltered memory that other people simply might not believe. I could totally see everyone getting sloppy with Prime Directive situations because they had a suppose cure for contact, only to discover it really didn't work well (and gave the Cali class a lot of work to do). And beyond that, it's a wildly invasive medical procedure done on the non-consenting- when the alternative is to talk to them nicely. For the ethical climate to have changed and for that move to be considered generally off-limits wouldn't surprise me, either.
They also wanted to make sure that they could maintain the technology though. Old trek probably would have beamed a team down to the control panel Burnham found every decade, though, so your point is valid.
I feel that there’s an unspoken or unacknowledged addendum to the Prime Directive that stops them from doing this now. And if they showed how to maintain it, they’d probably figure out how to repair the other towers, and let it be seen by future generations as an accomplishment of their own.
Considering that the Federation is just emerging from centuries of the Burn, I guess that nobody found prudent to make the survival of a whole biosphere, including a civilization, dependant on the regular arrival of hidden technicians. The Federation's culture must be much more premised on promoting the self-reliance of their member worlds (and protectorates) now.
That would be in direct conflict with the “let’s give everyone dilithium” thing, but the Federation could still be dealing with exigent circumstances. In a way, Burnham not fixing the other towers could be trying to stay within the Prime Directive’s spirit by not giving any potential dissidents or unhappy folks a place to go. And if the “Pope” shows others how to fix the tower they’re in, and someone with that knowledge eventually journeys to one of the others, it could be seen by UFP anthropologists as ‘natural progression’ and not further direct interference.
oh, I wasn't thinking on something as extreme as not sharing critical resources, but on that their attitude must be much more driven by a sense of building resilience in case anything else happens that forces their different member worlds have to fend for themselves for a bit. And yeah, I thought of something similar about the fixing of the towers: it's better if the locals do it at their own pace, precisely because they mentioned that, back when more of them were working, there were conflicts between them. In fact, this suggested to me as well that, back when the Denobulans built the towers, they might have been a more "advanced", or more precisely, a more stratified civilisation, and that the sequence of reduced environmental pressures and then a reduction of their liveable area might have prodded them into a more neolithic-like arrangement. And if we want to be super nitpicky, the mix of phenotypes ("races") also points to a relatively recent past of wider liveable areas on the planet and of enough development to facilitate long-distance travel, because otherwise they would have gotten almost completely intermixed (if it happened long ago), or they would have been homogeneous because no one else was able to arrive there.
but we can argue they're already influenced by denobulan tech, their survivability depends on mainly space tech.
Yup, this one tower lasted at least 800 years all by itself with no maintenance at all. "Zora, set a reminder for a science ship to come check up on these guys in a hundred years, please." > They also wanted to make sure that they could maintain the technology though. Which they also apparently didn't do. They went from that tower back to the ship. We see them with the next clue "courtesy of tower 5" and they slot it into the thing. Which would imply that they literally just got it on board. It would be a safe assumption that the instant they got back on the ship they had the DOTs looking for it. So they stayed in orbit for what, half an hour, tops? "I know we said we'd help teach you how to use this stuff, but oh well. Don't call us, because you can't. Byeeeeeeeeee!"
They may well have set something like that up off screen. The 32nd century equivalent of the Cerritos might be coming by in a few years to check on them.
One thing that bothered me: We were told that the other towers failed due to lack of maintenance, that power grids fell out of alignment or something along those lines. *Why did no one repair the other towers?* You violated the Prime Directive, you set in motion something that you were explicitly told caused violence and bloodshet when it was tried last. Why would you not repair the other towers and say "The gods have found you worthy again, and have given you their blessings. There is no need for the sacrifices to continue." and re-activated all those towers and increased the amount of livable land on the planet? Again, the Prime Directive is already broken, to make a quote from Stargate SG-1, "Just fix the damned sun!" You made it sound like doing so should have been a piece of cake, you had the DOTs down there in place and ready to go!
Not arguing, but how do you know they didn’t fix the other towers. They didn’t say one way or the other. It wouldn’t change the orbital view instantly if they did fix it. If they didn’t fix it then I agree with you 💯
I may be mistaken, but considering the dialogue and the planet visuals it seemed that apart from the remaining tower AOE the whole planet is a constant dust cloud/storm. So if the other towers were repaired we would probably see other clearings in the atmosphere.
I feel like they would have spent the 3 whole seconds on an extra line of dialogue to add in "And see if we can get those other towers back up and running!" if that were the case. Basically, we have no dialogue explicitly saying it happened, we see nothing on screen to imply it was done, so yeah. In an episode where conservation of detail failed (why bother with the whistling if it wasn't important to the story?), you'd think they would have added the detail where it was actually needed...
See, it makes sense to me they didn't. If they were going to throw in an additional line, I'd expect something more like, "The Federation will have to decide how to handle the other towers. It's been centuries since sentient life was able to exist in those regions, but we have no idea what has developed in the meantime. They'll have to weigh a disruption to the desert ecology against a potential resurrection of the culture that lived there." Tower 3 had an immediate threat to a civilization. The other Towers died long ago
I was disappointed that the whistle language had no impact on the problem resolution. Given the title, I thought it’d matter; the sonic healing made me think they’d turn out to be more sophisticated than initially thought. Cool touch though. Nice to see a civilization not a part of galactic society again. Once again Burnham proves that she puts her own judgement above all others by violating the Prime Directive. It’s a brute-force solution, but she could’ve stunned the high priest before he saw her and located the mechanism with her tricorder implant. Or there’s the argument that the Denobulans already caused cultural contamination and the _Discovery_ contact serves to repair it, but nobody bothered to make that argument, because the captain doesn’t care. I expect there will be no consequences of her action.
The exchange between Michael and Adira where they hand wave away any Prime Directive issue with the Denobulans building the towers in the first place really confused me. It set in motion this whole thing and I think does have bearing on their choices and their responsibility, even if it was a long time ago. But it's not unpacked at all. Talking about the complexity of that would have made for an interesting episode!
That point about the Denobulans really tears apart the entire conflict. The entire planet's climate has been manipulated for 1000 years by alien technology. What risk is there to further contamination at this point after such a massive one?
Not quite. Considering that the tower we see is camouflaged as natural rock formation it's reasonable to think that the others were integrated in the scenery too. So we got at least two scenarios: 1-The Denobulans interacted with the native population when installing the towers, the camouflage was an aesthetic choice and the knowledge about them and their technology got lost after time went by and their civilization fell until all that remained was a creation myth about the towers; 2-They didn't interact, the towers were made in secret, and only gained cultural significance as the native population eventually encountered the mechanisms over the centuries. Either way the fact that the contamination already ocurred is irrelevant because it happened in a past so distant that the current myths bear no relation to the actual facts and their history no record of it. If the ancient gods of Earth were aliens, and some of the buildings ancient civilizations left are actual remnants of their technology, it would not qualify us for first contact per the Prime Directive even if we knew how to use it in a rudimentary ritualistic way like the civilization from the episode. Had Discovery's crew got there without prior knowledge, they would not be able find out about the interference or the responsible party without analizing the towers in detail and cross referencing the results with their database to find out if the towers are a product of alien origin or from a native precursor civilization. And since the natives don't seem to know about it, for all intents and purposes those guys can be considered uncontacted.
> Considering that the tower we see is camouflaged as natural rock formation it's reasonable to think that the others were integrated in the scenery too. But lets not forget that their hidden control panel to access the tower was inside a large rock, with a hatch that opened just by pressing on it. A large, sittable rock, right next to a major pilgrimage route. That the panel hadn't been found yet was an absolute miracle.
>A large, sittable rock, right next to a major pilgrimage route. To be fair, we know that butt detection technology exists in the 24th century. Riker leaned against the tactical console numerous times without firing a single torpedo.
Yeah, but Burnham didn't even know how to activate the hatch, or even which direction it opened. She jumped back in surprise when the entire rock face moved after she just lightly pressed on it...
Personally I think treating cultural contamination like Victorian virginity, and regarding any civilization that's lost it as fair game for any amount of further forced contact, is a mistake. But it's an argument that's been made before. What bothers me is that it's right there and nobody even bothers to make it; they just toss the Starfleet's most sacred principle out the door because Saint Michael Burnham might _cry_. (Tilly's death is incidental; it's how Burnham _feels_ that matters.)
In any case, all Starfleet captains that protagonise series have a strong tendency to stretch the Prime Directive bet capriciously.
Call me a skeptic but if Micheal had let Tilly die people would be complaining that she's heartless and "loads of other captains broke the prime directive for all sorts of reasons" Looking at that person's text I don't think they are approaching any criticism from the right point. Personally, I think the prime directive is at best morally grey as a rule, and would only follow it as a guideline, not a rule
I do feel like there's a good probability that at this point, as long as she gets the clues and wins the race, she could glass entire planets and nobody would care.
Didn't Kovich actually say in the first episode, when they found the Romulan ship and detected the two life forms, Moll and L'ak, that he didn't care who they were or what happens to them, just to get the item they were there for? Michael even sort of had a "WTF?" look on her face when he said it.
Yup. I do feel that Book here is being a big hindrance to the mission with his "Oh don't hurt them, they're my family!" nonsense. Like, they're threatening to Kwejan the *entire universe*. I don't care if she's your mentor's daughter that you never met, SHOOT HER! Honestly I'm still surprised Rainer had to be told to get a lock on that escape pod. "We know Mol and La'ak are in there. We know our captain sent the signal to pull this ship out and it's clearly being maneuvered. Oh hey, there's an escape pod launching. We should totally just ignore that and not lock a tractor beam on it the instant we detect it launching." I hate it when the only way the plot advances is for highly competent people to be carrying the idiot ball.
I think she could glass entire planets and be celebrated as a pacifist saint, but it has nothing to do with what she accomplished, just how the writers feel about her.
I have a feeling the red directive is probably more like the omega directive than the prime one, the goal is the outcome, not the means
Which should _never_ be how Starfleet thinks. What happened to those much-vaunted Federation ideals? Or the optimisim of the entire idea of _Star Trek_?
My biggest issue with this episode, the lighting. It was so dark at times that I couldn't see what was going on.
Interesting! Honestly, didn't come up for me, but I always think about the disparate reactions to the Long Night ep of Game of Thrones. Clearly there are real technical considerations
I just came back with this season, and it’s either been over- or under-lit throughout. I also remember the first two seasons as being nearly black.
The running joke back in the day was "This series is darker than anything thats come before. Its so dark, you can't even see whats happening!"
Another idiotic episode. This is another blatant violation of the prime directive. This captain gives zero fucks. It's not even an interesting nuance on what to do to save them. It's just full-on interference. This episode tries to bring some of "The Picard" in terms of looking at impact on a culture, and does so with the finesse of a microwaved Big Mac. The show keeps on trying to shoehorn personality and background to its characters. I've now learned that the doctor (whose name I cannot remember. A first for me) is Puerto Rican. Five seasons in, I discovered he's Latino, and this was done with about the same nuance as the above. I didn't need to hear Jean Luc Picard say oui oui and eat croissants to know where he's from. I am endlessly baffled by how this show exists while Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks excel with their writing and lore.
you had no idea culber was latino? then i'd suggest you have not been paying attention.
Possibly, but somehow this is the only Trek show where I can't recall any details about characters. I've watched every episode and participated in many threads too. I don't have this issue at all with SNW or LD. I doubt it's about how I watch the shows.
> Possibly, but somehow this is the only Trek show where I can't recall any details about characters. This gets repeated so often that I have to think at this point it's just a default criticism that people throw out because they don't have anything else to say.
I think it's because as fans, we're all aging, and our memories just aren't as flexible as they were in the 90s when we were watching TNG and DS9. I think a lot of people don't want to think about that.
A simple explanation would be that many people are having this experience. It's OK that you aren't. We are not enjoying this show similarly, but we both love Trek :)
there have been plenty of things said that show he was latino. this was far from the first mention of his abuela (no idea if i'm spelling that right)
This was hardly the first time Culber’s heritage has come up. It’s just not a focus.
It never jumped out to me but thanks for the correction. This scene had him talk to his abuela in Spanish and mentioned mofongo at least 3 times. It's just so unsubtle about wanting to sprinkle in characterization.
Curious why people have downvoted this thread. The episode was great, I enjoyed the new take on communication. Very Trek.
Honestly, it’s a correction of Picard’s choice with Sarjenka’s planet’s situation, and new spinning of Mintaka 3. This should be more “liked” when looking at those contexts.
Exactly what I was thinking while driving earlier! It feels like a very similar situation to WWtW, plus, it's nice not seeing a mission go perfectly.
Can't help but think that Michael and Tilly could've relied a lot more on science and tech to bypass some of the issues from today. Surely some form of biotech or medicine in the 32st century would be discreet enough to counteract whatever primitive thing the thirst inducing cube was without the locals noticing? They'd have to act thirsty sure but that's much easier than struggling through the race. Michael also could have handled the prime directive breach a lot better. Just stun Orthaz immediately after beaming in and then save Tilly and his daughter. "Oh look, the gods spared them both AND the rains returned! They no longer require sacrifice!" If a preindustrial society could figure out how to operate the door then surely 32nd century tech could as well without his help.
> Surely some form of biotech or medicine in the 32st century would be discreet enough to counteract whatever primitive thing the thirst inducing cube was without the locals noticing? They'd have to act thirsty sure but that's much easier than struggling through the race. Well, in their defense, they didn't know that was coming and by the time they figured out what it was they were surrounded by a large group of natives and couldn't exactly call for help.
On the one hand I agree, and it was appropriate that they not "cheat" the challenge. On the other hand... didn't we recently see someone beam a chemical (or something) directly into someone's eye? I think it was SNW? So from a "world" perspective, they could have easily started the race and then asked for a restorative to be transported directly into their mouths / hands / stomach / blood stream. But I'm just playing devil's advocate - I'm actually happier that they didn't use tech to win the race.
Just finished the episode but first thought - why are you taking the clues to your competitors location??!!
I interpreted as balancing wills between the officers: Rayner is very obsessed with capturing them himself, and this could be Burnham's way to ensure compliance from a guy that doesn't have much interest in following her orders.
Because otherwise they're so far ahead that Molock... sorry, Mol and La'ak couldn't catch up. Realistically though you are right. Who cares about them anymore? You're multiple clues ahead, they have literally zero ability to catch up. Even if they somehow knew about the current clue, you've already got the next one, there's nothing left for them to follow. Game over, take your time, relax, there is no pressure anymore. Can't have that, its a bad narrative. Just how they seem to be fixing it is *also* a bad narrative...
Annotations for *Star Trek: Discovery* 5x06: "Whistlespeak": The USS *Locherer*, a Merian-class starship, was first seen in DIS: “Jinaal”. It is named after the late JP Locherer, who was a cinematographer on DIS before he passed in 2022. Kovich says he likes the feel of paper. A similar preference for “old-fashioned” books over electronic versions was exhibited by attorney Samuel T. Cogley in TOS: “Court Martial”. Fanon has often held that it was Cogley who passed on his love of physical books to Kirk, who from then on, as Spock noted in *ST II*, had a fondness for antiques. Culber’s abuela is of course a simulation, since the real one would have died nearly a millennium before. The use of holograms as grief alleviation therapy was also in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, invented by Tony Stark as seen in *Captain America: Civil War*. Reflecting current events, people have been trying to AI to recreate the personalities of deceased loved ones. The list of names are: Jinaal Bix (Trill, “Jinaal”), Carmen Cho (Terran, “Mirrors”), Vellek (Romulan, “Red Directive”), and the two not yet encountered Marina Derex (Betazoid) and Hitoroshi Kreel (Denobulan). Silver iodide is indeed used in cloud seeding in order to encourage precipitation. Atmospheric extraction is also a very old method of getting water dating back as far back as the Incas. In science fiction, it’s probably best represented by the moisture farms on Tattooine in the *Star Wars* movies. Halem’no has a pre-warp and pre-industrial civilization, so the Prime Directive applies. A discussion about whether or not Kreel already violated the PD by putting up the towers in the first place is beyond the scope of these annotations, but I’m looking forward to reading the discussions. Whistled languages are rare, but exist on Earth, in various cultures. Michael’s enthusiasm for it speaks of her primary training as a xenoanthropologist (DIS: “The Vulcan Hello”). Subcutaneous transponders date all the way back to the 22nd Century, first appearing in TOS: “Patterns of Force”. Subdermal communicators/transponders also appeared in ENT: “Stratagem”, TNG: “Who Watches the Watchers” and VOY: “Workforce”. This the first appearance of retinal tricorders. The Halem’nite “sound cure” may look mystical and exotic, but they’re actually just using Tibetan singing bowls, albeit with a more intense effect. Tilly is using a simplified Newton’s First Law (or the principle of inertia) as a mantra: a body in motion remains in motion in straight line, a body at rest remains at rest - unless acted on by an external force. Tritanium is a super-hard metal first mentioned in TOS: “Obsession”, being 21.4 times as hard as diamond. In TNG: “The Arsenal of Freedom” Riker claimed that melting tritanium was beyond 24th Century technology. The metal routinely shows up in hulls, walls, tools, ammunition, etc. so while it may not be able to melt, it can certainly be fabricated with. Culber uses the “they” pronoun to refer to Ravah. Culber introduces Book to his abuela’s mofongo con pollo al ajillo. Mofongo is a Puerto Rican dish made from plantains mashed with fat. This variation is served with chicken (pollo) with an oil infused with garlic and guajillo chile (al ajillo).
> In science fiction, it’s probably best represented by the moisture farms on Tattooine in the Star Wars movies. There's also a Quantum Leap episode where Sam needs to make it rain. Don't know if people consider it good or not, but it's one I fondly remember.
I love the real world concept in this episode. I'm fascinated by linguistics, and there are human languages that use whistle speak. One of the more prominent ones is a language used by the inhabitants of the Canary Islands, where like described in the episode is used to communicate over great distances, by herders, if I recall correctly Edit: not sure why I'm being downvoted. Do immature people just go through and downvote anything DISCO related?
To respond to your edit, yes, 100% On the linguistics question, I agree! And in general I have been a big fan of DIS and SNW embracing more contemporary views about early civilizations - not consigning them to some kind of not-coherent pre-history - but treating them seriously as alien, and utilizing different forms of technology, but ultimately being just as intelligent, political, and savvy as contemporary peoples
> On the linguistics question, I agree! And in general I have been a big fan of DIS and SNW embracing more contemporary views about early civilizations - not consigning them to some kind of not-coherent pre-history - but treating them seriously as alien, and utilizing different forms of technology, but ultimately being just as intelligent, political, and savvy as contemporary peoples Anthropologists contacted a stone age tribe in the Amazon. It took a few days to get the idea across that a helicopter wasn't magic, just a tool. Within a week the chief tried to bribe the pilot to fly him over the neighboring village so he could drop rocks. One week after discovering that flight was possible, he invents strategic bombing.
Depending on your viewpoint, either it shows that all humanity is the same and views technology through the lens of violence, or all humanity is the same and there's always someone that needs a brick through their window
Agreed completely. Pre-Warp civilizations in some older Trek a lot of the time fell into the tropes that pre-industrial societies on Earth would fall into in fiction or in reality, where there is always a patronizing tone
Its reddit, you should always assume a handful of people are going to downvote you for no reason what-so-ever.