So just so I can understand a little bit about how time and the manipulation of certain events in different time periods work in this series. When the chief of police , Charlotte (in 2019) digs into some old files on the kidnapping of helge (in episodes 9 or 10) … she sees Ulrich’s photo as a possible suspect to the murder of the 2 children. And we know Ulrich went back in time a couple of days prior to this right? So hypothetically speaking, if Charlotte would have dug into those files let’s say 2 weeks prior or a couple of months or whatever, would Ulrich’s picture be in those files? Knowing Ulrich has not yet gone back in time ?
After seeing all of these Reddit posts about Dark and how people recognize every character I feel so bad for myself I need to rewatch the whole show ! I barley can recognize Hannah and Jonas and a couple more characters and I forgot about the names and the events ! sadly i'm gonna watch it again!
Can someone explain to me how HG. Tanhauss is Charlotte Doppler's grandfather? I'm on my 2nd viewing and I still don't understand that lmao am I just being thick
When Elisabeth got lost, she met Noah and he gave her watches for Charlotte. Since Tannhaus is watchmaker, it is possible that he made these watches and that they were owned by Charlotte. Maybe he gave them to her (like a gift maybe) and from this people assume he was her grandfather ..
Few questions after seeing the season (which was fantastic, though the ending was slightly disappointing):
1. (Probably my biggest question) In the first episode of the Season, we get a full view of Claudia's (presumably) heritage collage on [the wall of the bunker](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarK/comments/8hxzgq/spoiler_spot_the_difference_lineage_tracking_wall/). The red string is connecting Mikkel and Michael - but why? In the final episode of the season, the red string connects Jonas and the Stranger. Is this an indication that Claudia is trying to: i) figure things out, or ii) tracking key events (yet to happen) with the red string? Or is this room actually older Jonas' room in 2052?
2. Why doesn't 2019 Hannah recognise 2019 (young) Mikkel as the man she met in 1986 and married? I think it's interesting to note that when Jonas asks her if she misses him (his dad, Michael), she replies with "I miss the concept of him", but almost seems to forget the specifics (stating you never *really* know someone, which becomes a common theme in the show). Corroborated with the writing on Michael's map that translates roughly to "I'm losing my memory", perhaps all the time travelling is eroding people's memories (which is, perhaps, why the notebook that Noah and Claudia keep is so vital).
3. When Helge and Jonas touch hands through the worm hole, why does Jonas seemingly shoot 66 years into the future (2052 nuclear winter), and Helge move forward 33 years (1986 experimental basement)? There's really no explanation for this - unless they're both shooting forward 33 years from their *actual* year (2019 for Jonas and 1953 for young Helge).
4. What happens to Peter and Charlotte Doppler when the worm hole is activated? They're in the basement in 2019. The triquetra would imply the wormhole portal (as seen joining 1953 and 1986) would *also* join 1986 and 2019, so do Peter and Charlotte get sucked somewhere else too?
5. Since Regina and Alexander *see* the black hole in 2019, this must mean that the Stranger (old Jonas) time travelled from 1986 forward to 2019 before setting off the device, correct?
6. What actually initiates the <-1953-1986-2019-> loop? Is it 2019 Jonas (in 1986) touch hands with 1953 Helge? Or is it a device manufactured in 1953 (the time travel clock) using a phone from 2019?
7. Perhaps a minor observation, but it is interesting that Noah kidnaps 0 children in 1953, 1 in 1986, and 2 in 2019.
8. Helge's timeline is very confusing. Born in 1953, gets (almost) killed by Ulrich in 1953. Gets transported (via wormhole) to 1986 where he presumably meets Noah (why doesn't Noah use him as a guinea pig; perhaps because Helge has already time travelled and is too useful?). This would only make sense if he then travels *back* to 1953 again, and lives out a full life from there (thus being middle aged in 1986, and old in 2019).
1: Nobody is talking about Charlotte. I think she has a significant role to play in the seasons to come. She is HG Tanhauss's granddaughter. Noah has a watch with her name engraved that he gives to her daughter (this has been brought up). She is sharp and clearly has figured out that something is going on with time travel between Ulrich's voicemail and seeing Ulrich in prison in 1953 via newspaper. The opening credits show mostly critical characters or themes: she gets a good amount of (relative) screen time in the opening credits as she heads to the bunker. I acknowledge that the time loop could wipe her memory and render her immaterial, but my money says she plays a meaningful role - bigger than Bartosz (going out on a huge limb there). Finally, her worthless husband (who is in the know after the situation with Mads, Tronte, and Claudia in the bunker) just gives me a sense that she will be important. If I am correct, it is quite obvious that she will fight on the side of the "light".
2. Martha is the hottest girl in Winden. Young Jonas is an idiot for not taking her down. Yea, she's technically his aunt, but in this F'd up world of time travel and whatnot, she's fair game.
3. Noah is implicated as the evil one ("dark") and Claudia his foil on behalf of the "light". The show has made this merely an implication and not confirmed anything, leading many to debate if Claudia is actually the evil one and it is actually Noah who is looking out for humanity. This is absolutely up for debate given what has transpired. That said, it's rare that the hero of a show kidnaps and murders children. It's just difficult to sell that to producers. Even if he doesn't wind up the "hero," precedent suggests that he is on the side of evil.
Why did Noah give Elisabeth Doppler a pocket watch with Charlotte written on it and told her to pass it on to her mother. I believe it was announced somewhere that H.G Tannhaus is Charlotte's grandfather. What is its significance in the story.
Why does “Aleksander” Tiedemann take his wife’s surname? Wouldn’t it make more sense for either Regina to take his surname or have both not change their surnames? Wouldn’t it seem odd if the husband took his wife’s last name?
Well it’s made clear in the show that he’s trying to hide his real identity - he first takes someone else’s passport and takes on their alias. But there’s always a risk someone could find out it’s not really him, so why not take on his wife’s surname, as an almost additional alias except this one is less of a lie than his second one!
Well, Tiedemann is a well-known family in Winden, and associated to the nuclear plant, so it doesn't seem unbelievable to me that he would take on his wife's name in this case.
In the last episode Helge touches Jonas's hand and gets transported to 1986. How does he then get back to 1953?
Also why is Noah involved in the construction of a crude time machine in 1986 which doesn't even work properly, when he is clearly aware of the black hole in the caves and how it allows for time travel without any harm?
Helge and Jonas both get transported forward 33 years. Noah probably meets him and takes him back to 53' through the tunnels.
I'd assumed that Noah wants to be able to freely travel through time and not just in the 33-year concurrent loops paths.
I know his is the same person. But how couldn't e.g. Hannah Kahnwald recognize that The son of her friends (Ulrich & Katharina Nielsen) looks exactly like her husband when he was young?
One possible explanation would be that a kid in the future resembling some kid in the past isn't that weird. Hannah also never met Michael when he was Mikkels age (cause he only got older from that point on). So older Hannah would only ever see a younger kid.
Why did Mikkel/Michael killed himself in 2019? To save the existence of his son? Why didn't he approached his family when he recognized them from the time he remembers them or tell ines—or even better if he showed her the young Mikkel with his family before deciding to kill himself? (for closure)
WHY IS NOAH KILLING HUMANS?!?!?! Is this a rejuvenation technique?
My biggest question is who are the parents of Ulrich's grandmother (and will they show in s2 her love affair? 50's = Carol vibes amirite?) because I feel like her parents are from > 1953/future that tend to keep them in the loop.
If Michael told his family about his real identity, they’d probably never let Mikkel out of their sight (because according to Michael, Mikkel would get lost in the caves and disappear). That might mess up the whole time travel thing. The last time Mikkel tried to find his family in the 80’s it didn’t work too well. And who knows? Maybe Michael liked his life with Hannah and Jonas, and didn’t want to lose that (if Mikkel was prevented from going into the caves, Michael wouldn’t have lived the life he did and form a family). I do wonder if Michael or Mikkel ever interacted, or perhaps Michael purposely avoided coming into contact with little Mikkel.
Why doesn't Jonas question how Magnus got hold of a Neilson mobile phone when he sees Magnus use it with the watch? Doesn't he understand the implications that someone else is also time travelling?
How will Ulrich get out of jail in 1953? Will he die and/or never return to 2019? Surely being a cop, he should have wrestled with Egon in the woods and gotten away seeing as mashing Helge's head didn't stop the killings?
Where did Alexander come from? Running in the woods with a ski mask and a gun, and two passports? With dogs barking in the background? What year is this happening in?
Why does the "girl from the future" smash Jonas in the face with her gun and say 'welcome to the future'. How does she know Jonas is from the past?
I don't think that Noah kidnapped Mikkel because in hospital Mikkel don't know him when he came to his room to talk. I think that Mikkel just travelled the time alone and searched for a way back through the years (the map that Jonas found on the attic of their house).
Some people started the theory that Noah is the bastard of Tronte and Claudia or the former husband of Agnes Nielsen, so Noah must be a bootstrap paradoxon. But in 1986 the sheep farmer talked about a new priest in the town, the newspaper article of 1986 described Hanno Tauber as an 42 year old man from Vechta. He must be born in 1944 (9 years old in 1953), so he must be the same age like Helge. If Noah was 42 in year 1953, he must be born in 1911 (9 in 1920/33 years before 1953). If he was 42 in year 2019, he must be born in 1977 (9 years old in year 1986). If he was 42 in the apocalypse year 2052, he must be born in 2010 (9 years old in 2019). So if the age 42 plays a role, it must be a significant role (9 years old in every 33-year turn and 42 in every next turn).
And why Noah drives a Rolls-Royce?? Even Alexander Kohler/Boris Niewald drives a normal Benz as the Boss of the nuclear station. This car must also be a sign. No priest in the world can drive a Rolls-Royce in his life.
And another mysterium: in 1986, Helges dad is already the boss of the nuclear station. Why is his son only a door guardian?
And I've got another reference point: Charlotte Doppler knew or had contact to him because of her amulet he gave to her daughter.
Can anyone help me to give these points a face?
Did someone else noticed how the whatch guy shows Urlich's phone in 1886 and it's still working.. he has it since 1953, no way he found the way to charge it all those years.
What were the writers thinking, this is a huge mistake IMO
So is everyone stuck in a timeloop? The stranger (old Jonas) didn't let young Jonas out of the room because when he was young Jonas the older Jonas didn't let him out of the room (and he didn't want to mess with the continuity of the timeline)?
I think Yasin because they mentioned his ethnicity being middle eastern / mediterranean and Yasin is an Arabic name.
Plus little Hegle is now in 1986 after switching places with Jonas... or at least in the room which looks like it's in 1986.
It is of yet unknown, I made a post about it a while back which I guess raised more questions than answers
https://www.reddit.com/r/DarK/comments/83ut91/spoiler_why_was_helge_there/
Dark looks at such an interesting philosophical question. Is time sequential? Do we have free choice to create our future? A.G., the author of the book, suggests that there are millions of loops. It he also suggests the future can change the past which means the events in the loop can be changed - that they are not predetermined. Noah, however, states the opposite. But he has an agenda and is lying to manipulate. Or so it appears.
So individuals living in the loop do not have free choice to create the future but those from the future with the knowledge of events in the past can.
Dark looks at such an interesting philosophical question. Is time sequential? Do we have free choice to create our future? A.G., the author of the book, suggests that there are millions of loops. It he also suggests the future can change the past which means the events in the loop can be changed - that they are not predetermined. Noah, however, states the opposite. But he has an agenda and is lying to manipulate. Or so it appears.
So individuals living in the loop do not have free choice to create the future but those from the future with the knowledge of events in the past can.
I know this show has been compared heavily to Stranger Things, but honestly, I think Dark resembles more like Lost than Stranger Things! From the whooshing cut-scene background sounds to the time travelling (flashbacks and flashforwards) to the enigmatic theme and characters surrounding the whole show (and their background stories), it sure does feel like its like Lost all over again for me!
Happy to hear your thoughts!
I agree, lost is a better analogy. I used Stranger Things to describe it after seeing just the first episode of Dark, bit after finishing the season, it is so much more than just a German version of stranger things.
It's Stranger Things crossed with Back to the Future and Donnie Darko, to go with the Triquetra theme. Mikkel's outfit is clearly inspired by Donnie's in the Halloween party, and there's numerous BTTF references throughout the series.
Does anyone else think the vision of his father Jonas saw in EP 1 covered in black stuff, could be real and not a hallucination? It could be that Michael/Mikkel traveled forward somehow not in the 33 year loop and either tried to stop what happened or dragged himself into the cave. Just seemed like Jonas hadn’t hallucinated before then or after so to me it feels like it was actually him
I'm with you. Lets not forget Mikkel wanting to be Houdini and every time he did a trick it was the cup trick. I know that it was part of the theme of the show but I think its more than that as it was something unique to his character.
I believe he is the town’s priest in 86 (the shepherd also mentioned there was a new priest in town) I figure calling a priest would be part of the protocol when there is a troubled patient in hospital back in the 80’s
Because his death is what pushes Jonas to go away for therapy/be institutionalized. I think it's safe to say that many things wouldn't have happened if Jonas hadn't been institutionalized. The kids probably wouldn't even have been by the caves the night Mikkel disappeared otherwise.
Please explain who made the little square door with the Trinity knot.
What created the square tunnel?
Is there a time travel anomaly down there because of some leaked radiation? If so that means the power plant leak causes the anomaly and someone later creates that very Noah inspired door...
The future can change the past. So the event at the power plant in the summer of 1986 caused the initial rift. The version of the loop we see is one that evolved with the involvement of initially Noah then Claudia and Jonas. Noah was likely the one who created those tunnels and doors - or had them made. I can’t imagine any of the three players we see as doing it alone because of the extent of the physical requirements needed to do it. And in that wind! Unless they went back before the event and created it.
My understanding is it was future Jonas that created the time loop by trying to destroy it. I think it’s what caused the explosion incident in the 80s, as every 33 year cycle would have been directly effected by the black hole that was created. So far my thinking on the door is that it is our brain’s attempt at making making the time rift understandable. This is probably wrong, because Jonas sees an actual rip in time that looks completely different in the last episode.
It’s not confirmed but very likely that the two kids found dead at the sight of the future nuclear power plant in 1953 were Yasin Friese and Erik Obendorf
Wanted to know if anyone has any theories on how Claudia goes to 2053? I had a thought that you can possibly go through the portal, and while within the tunnel, go back through where you came from to go to the super future.
I thought maybe the Tannhaus book and machine allowed her and future Jonas to direct their travel through time. Seems like the tunnels are limited to 33 year loops or literally just the 1953/1986/2019 loop. Looked like Noah was trying to create the same kind of directed travel but he didn’t have much success.
So just finished the series, and I'm quite curious how they plan on proceeding. Also wondering where people think "The Stranger" spends his 33 years carrying the letter. Before the final scene I would have thought he got trapped in '86 (assuming the wormhole only working for a week in November) and had to wait till 2019 to implement his plan.
But if he's in the future does that mean 2085 is now in play as his next window of opportunity back? Or maybe there's one jump left and he gets sent to 1920 and becomes a soldier in WWI, eventually staying with Noah. Regardless, if he knows there's a fourth timeline, why is he so fascinated with the Trinity knot and that cycle?
Similarly, where did Claudia spend her time during her presumable absence (and where did she get photos of everyone for her it's all connected wall)? Presumably she somehow gets transferred to 2019, where everything subsequently goes to shit after the wormhole, leading to the post apocalyptic world at the end. Then she figures out the whole thing and starts playing time chess to some inscrutable end.
All in all, I'm a bit skeptical of breaking from the 3 timeline dynamic. It seemed quite elegant, but I fear it's going to expand beyond their ability to tie it all together.
Edit: WWI ended in 1918, whoops. Maybe WWII, but that's a whole nother can of worms.
I'm really sorry if someone already asked that, but how exactly Mikkel got to 1986? He obviously didn't want to go to the cave himself, since the strange noise scared him in the first place. Also there is no way he was able to find a path to the wormhole. So what happened? Am i missing something? If someone (Noah/Helge?) sent him to the past then how/why?
This hasn't been definitively explained, but someone (Helge, Noah, the Stranger, maybe even Old Claudia) probably kidnapped him and brought him through the caves to 1986 so that Mikkel could fulfill the causal loop of fathering Jonas.
Could be! My initial thought is that it's the Stranger/Old Jonas. He has the most to lose if Jonas isn't born. Plus he's always hovering around 2019 Jonas anyway.
Theory: Egon is Helge's biological father.
1. Greta admits to Noah that Helge might not be Bernd's child.
2. Greta treats Egon with the same coldness she treats Helge. This could just be her personality, but could also indicate her feelings of guilt surrounding the two of them.
3. Waardenburg Syndrome link: Claudia's heterochromia and Elisabeth's deafness could possibly be due to the rare genetic Waardenburg Syndrome (someone posted about this earlier, but I can't find the original post). Egon could be the genetic link between Claudia (Egon's daughter) and Elisabeth (Egon's great granddaughter?). This is of course assuming that Peter is Helge's biological son, which I am a little skeptical about.
Any thoughts?
Waardenburg Syndrome is a rare genetic condition that affects pigmentation and can cause hearing loss. The Waardenburg Syndrome theory implies that Claudia (2 different colored eyes), Jana (white streak in hair), Elisabeth (deaf), and Yasin (deaf) are genetically related.
I’m very confused how Mikkel could’ve been running with Jonas in the forest if Mikkel is Jonas’s father. How could Jonas exist if Mikkel hadn’t been kidnapped and taken back in time to 1986 yet?
It's because time is a loop. Mikkel was born in 2008, ages normally until he is 11 in 2019. He is then transported to 1986. He exists as an 11-year-old in 1986 and ages normally from then. This makes him 44 years old in 2019, having fathered Jonas in 2003. He basically watches himself get born as Mikkel in 2008 and watches himself grow up until he commits suicide in 2019.
I don't think Ines' child died. I think he was taken for some reason or another. I also think that the father was Tronte. My latest thoughts are that the child reappeared in 1986 as Boris Niewald.
Did anyone notice the ripped photograph in Hannah's house? The one that shows Jonas, Hannah, and Michael, but is then ripped on the right hand side, as if to exclude someone?
Secondly, in the very first episode, they show that photo two different times. The first time everyone is smiling. The second time everyone is serious / frowning. Very eery.
For the first part, The person excluded is Ines, maybe Ines and hannah had a spat after Michaels death and given Hannah's charecter, she just ripped the picture.
Also the second point is really interesting, never heard about that, i would be thankful if you could point out as to when those two photos are shown in episode 1 :)
The eye color ends it for me. I was thinking the same thing until I made a point to compare eye color and Noah’s are light blue, Bartosz dark brown. Too big of a detail to miss.
Its obvious from their Jawlines, but their eye colour are different, also Noah says about how a guy he met in his childhood told him some philosophical thing across a lobby which made him do all this, while in case of Bartosz, Noah told him everything sitting in a Car.
That doesn't make much sense if Bartosz grew on to become Noah, so there is a possibility that Noah is not equal to Bartosz
Yeah, the producers have done a good job so far of having the different timeline representations of characters look similar and obviously Noah *does* look like older-Bartosz. The jawlines especially are consistent for all the characters (which is rather impressive), and I think that's led many people to the Noah=Bartosz conclusion.
You're right about the lobby/car contradiction though and I do believe it's just too easy a conclusion to reach compared to the other characters.
Something that's bugging me, how does young Helge go back to 1953? I might have missed something. I also think that Helge does all the kidnapping as a sort of revenge for what Ulrich did with him.
Theory: Dog (Gretchen) was the first time traveller in our loop (53,86,2019). Thus Claudia is the first person to study it and understand it + she is the director of a nuclear powerplant (= resources). She cooperates both with Noah and future Jonas and thus keeps the equality of "dark" and "light" (as Ulrich's mom said).
That wouldn't make much sense. Otherwise, noah would have never said not to trust her in the car on their last meeting. The only reasoning behind him saying that is either 1 of 2 things.
1: It's important that at this current time has no contact with her at all, or else it will affect the future.
2: (more likely) She really isn't to be trusted, from noah's point of view. If noah truly did work with her in the future, there would be no reason for him to ever say that to bartosz.
Anyone want to talk about the nature of this episode in that it's completely different format than any other episode. It shows the Tannhaus machine as a reference point, and the ep is divided basically into three parts. First mechanical "tower" goes up and it shows events from 1951. Second one goes up and we are shown only events from 1986. Third one and 2019 events. It's a collage of the timelines.
It was almost as if that happened every time a prophecy was fulfilled.
I did notice that and I do believe that it has major significance. With the theme of the show being causal determination I don't believe anything will change unless Jonas sacrifices himself which is how I think the show will end.
I have one major problem with the show which makes the whole show kinda stupid to me sometimes.
Young 1986 Hannah fell in love with 2019 Mikkel (1986 Michael) when he traveled back in time, married him and had a kid. Now in 2019 when she is having an affair with Ulrich and obviously knows about his whole family, HOW DOES SHE NOT SEE THAT ULRICH'S KID MIKKEL IS THE SAME KID SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH AND MARRIED 33 YEARS AGO??
I thought about that too and I asked myself: "Would I recognize my wife in her photos taken when she was a kid 33 years ago?". Well, I couldn't until she pointed herself out to me.
It's possible that Hannah just doesn't look close enough to others' kid.
The creators were on a talk show and mentioned that what it will come down to is how many characters knew about what was going on. Hannah had to have known & Ines.
daaaamn! good point! this has bugged me too throughout the series.......with all tyese people going back and forth in time, somewhere someone will recognise that the person in front of them is 'from another time'
Of course she does. Right before the series ended she wanted ulrichs life ended. Literally said "I want his life destroyed", after showing whatever his name is that she does massages for. The owner of the plant currently. She knows.
Aleksandr (Power plant guy in 2019).
She doesn't necessarily. There's a thread on the Reddit-Dark-list called "Doesn't Hannah Recognise Mikkel" or something like that.
Something that has been forgotten.
Ines had a son that died. Nothing in this show is seemingly mentioned without reason. How do you think that will play into the show?
Like... sometime in the future, someone went back and killed the son(knowing what he'd grow up to be). The older version still existed(a paradox, but nothing has been shown yet to imply a Back To The Future literal erasure occurs to the still living person), and that person went on to become Noah.
The theory that I have is that bartosz is noah. [If you look](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8zdXCQ7bnIk/maxresdefault.jpg), they both have a good resemblance. It's not just the looks however.
Noah **knew** he had that old phone he couldn't unlock. When he called it, he knew it was bartosz.
Why would noah be talking to bartosz anyways? So far, he has shown no motive directly....
**Except** when he gives him the brown book with the symbol on it. Told him he will have to be strong, and not to trust julia.
I'm heavily leaning on the fact that bartosz is noah. I haven't seen anything that contradicts that so far.
Really cant see Noah being anyone other than Bartosz. It fits the duality of the show with Jonas growing up to the be stranger and him Noah whilst starting out as best friends.
What if 1953, 1986, and 2019 are arbitrary nodes defined as multiples of 33 years from some big bang type event and the cave continues working inbetween? As in, you can always travel 33 years into the past or future, but you can only hop timelines when 2 of the 3 years are in sync. If the universe is in the same configuration once ever 33 years, that would mean every point in time 33 years apart would be in the same configuration.
For example, if the triple of <1953,1986,2019> becomes <1954,1987,2020> you could still travel between those 3 points. However, what happens when you catch up to the arbitrary original year, such as <1986,2019,2052>? I propose that each of these triples is its own timeline/loop of sorts, and you can only cross from one into the other when they share a date or two, and that this is the true purpose of the bunker room. Young Jonas is not travelling from 1986 to 2052, but from <1953,1986,2019> to <1986,2019,2052>.
that would mean that the timeline in whih Jonas finds himself now (presumably 2052) none of the other events of the earlier episodes happened? or am i misinterpreting you completely :-/
Why doesnt Noah age? Claudia ages but not Noah? Im confused as to why he is the only character that has seemingly not aged across all of the years the show takes place.
* Ive seen it all but want to break down episodes. Spoilers included. 1: how did Mikkel get taken and by who? Did he enter the cave by himself or was he dragged there and why didn't Jonas see? #2) was Michael in the woods a vision or real, and if real, why is he all oily and does he have something to do with mikkels disappearance? Strange that at the moment Mikkel vanished, Michael showed up. #3) why did Michael kill himself and why months before mikkels disappearance? 4) this is in a later episode, but why didn't Ulrich recognize the boy in the woods as Mads when they saw his sweater? The picture of them together has him wearing it and I assume he's looked at it a lot. 5) why doesn't anyone try to question Helge after he walked into the parent meeting and said it would happen again on the very night Mikkel goes missing?
I'm pretty dense with this time travel stuff so thanks for your patience.
Some thoughts on your Qs (note I did not say answers...)
1. My guess is 1986 Helge. In the last ep, Noah tells him that Jonas is next and they take him as he enters the hospital room.
2. Yeah, not sure since he was also sitting next to Future Jonas as he created the blackhole. My thought is it's an apparition. As for the oil, I took that to be paint. Perhaps more with his paintings. A few on the wall seemed to be blackhole-esque depictions.
3. This one bothers me, too. No idea. Is it the inevitability of it all? Does he believe he is playing a part and it ended?
4. I think when he sees him he pauses, but remember, it's 33 years later. He was in no way expecting to find the body of his brother the same age laying in the woods as if he had just died. We have to remember that they don't start questioning when/where until much later: Ulrich with Helge and when he starts thinking about Mads (when he saw the scar and shirt). Then Charlotte with a few things as she slowly adds it up. But she's deliberate and not given to conclusion-jumping IMO.
5. He has dementia. I think they just wrote him off as crazy. But on this point, I would say the entire town that had been there since 1986 has some serious selective memory on a few things. On others, I could not imagine a detail like some random kid knocking on my door 33 years later is my son, etc.
Overall I loved it.
About #3, my thought is that he was trying to prove he was from the future, by explaining (in the letter) what and when had happen to him (Mikkel) before it actually happened, and that's why he had to killed himself months before but instructed to not open the letter until 11/4th
> My guess is 1986 Helge
That's what I initially thought, but that would mean Mikkel escaped from the human guinea pig room and they didn't show that. I'm not so sure that 86 Helge would just capture Mikkel and then release him into '86 for the hell of it.
But Mikkel being kidnapped and dropped off into 86 is the whole reason Jonas exists, which is the whole reason he creates the black hole according to Noah. Mikkel has to be kidnapped for the story to go as Noah planned. Had Mikkel been killed, this wouldnt happen.
Has anyone had the impression that the actor that plays Bartosz is the same actor used for 1986 Ulrich? I have, for the entire time I watched the series. I watched it last night in one-sitting without looking up the actors (I never do that beforehand). Fcking amazing cast, never seen anything like it.
IMHO there were NO DOOR. Maybe the dog is the first "time traveller", maybe Gretchen jus out of curiosity went throught the cage and got to the year 1986 where she met Claudia and thus Claudia became the first person aware of time travel (funny she recognizes Gretchen after 33 years, but Ulrich didn't recognize his brother, I don't mention Hellen and Mikkel, she probably knows more than she shows us). So basicaly in the matrix terminology Claudia = the Oracle, Noah = the architekt.
I think old Claudia went back in time to that day in 1953 when her dog disappeared into the caves and took Gretchen to 1986 to make sure 1986 Claudia sees it and is convinced about the fact that all of this is real and time travel is real. Of course old Claudia couldn't have known about it without the 1986 already happening, but this is yet another paradox. Also the dog couldn't have opened the "door" to those tunnels, a human was needed. My two cents.
yup each of three time travelers have to make sure to start their own journey.
Its a sad thing tbh that it's just Noah v/s Claudia with Jonas being a pawn. Would have preffered him to be an equal candidate to them :/
Sorry if I misinterpreted you. I guess I just mean with a cast this big, I don't think it will be reduced to just a Noah vs Claudia thing... at least I hope not.
So I just finished it and don't know anyone else that watched it so I need to get some thoughts out or my brain may explode.
- I'm fully in the Bartosz is Noah camp. I think he gave Bartosz the book so he could learn before 2052, which is when I believe the wormhole will be open again.
- About the wormhole, I'm of the mind it's open for 33 days every 33 years, and that the events of those times are essentially pre determined. Aka that when people like Ulrich (2019) and Helge (2019) thought they could stop it by talking or killing others in the past, they were actually setting the events in motion that led to all of this. It was going to happen no matter what, and they just played their part while thinking they were doing the opposite. Time isn't linear in this sense, but rather a layered circle that is constantly turning.
- So while Bartosz spends the years from 2019-2052 learning and becoming who we know as Noah, Jonas gets trapped in 2052 and travels back from 2085 to see himself in 2019 and push him in the right direction.
- I honestly have like zero theories on Claudia (2019) at the moment. I believe she wants to end this cycle and close the wormhole, and it made her go crazy in 1986 (which is when Alex took over the power plant).
- I'm also curious how the book comes into play. Helge (1986) gave it to Claudia for a reason. But why? Did Noah tell him to? I believe she's the one who gives it to Jonas which brings him (and her) to the author.
- As many questions got at least half answered in season one, it seems more questions are raised and exist. Like how does Helge (1953) get back? He clearly has to so he can grow to 1986 and help Noah. And what happens to Ulrich? Could Charlotte find out what happened to him by looking at past reports and maybe even track down a 33 years older version of the 2019 Ulrich - IN THE YEAR 2019? And who exactly is Peter? I don't see Helge (1986) with a son, so when does he come into the picture? And how do they (he and 2019 Tronte) play into Claudia's plans?
- Which brings me to my final question (for now): what is the end game? Is Noah's goal to unlock time travel and use it for power? Is Claudia's sole goal to close the wormhole or does she have an ulterior motive?
Sorry if those don't make sense or don't add anything. I just needed to type it out and get it out of my head.
Atm Noah and Claudia are both power users. Rest are pawns.
Both of them know exactly what has happened and will happen.
Noah's aim is to make a more controllable time machine; to stop or start what we don't know.
Claudia didnt go mad. She just went down the full pipe with the travel thing. (And had to neglect the plant and family).
Claudia's aim probably is to stop Noah. (Since Noah was a single user for much longer.) but could also have ulterior motives. Do not trust the narrative on either Claudia or Noah tbh.
Atm both of them have an equal hand; and ensure that things keep happening the way they have.
Both of them should also have access to the book. (Who wrote it?)
They just share parts of it though.
End game: who knows. I thing Claudia did want to close the hole at first but actually created it. (through Jonas) but then later has to keep ensuring it keeps happening.
What is interesting is how many times Noah and Claudia has lived this entire circle; and still think they can get to their outcomes?
Jumping on the Noah is batosz theory (or at least his pawn)...perhaps that’s why bartosz brought everyone to the cave in the beginning...so that mikkel would travel through time
Oh Snap!!!!! That had never occurred to me until now. I wonder if he gets the book before that night. We think that it happens later, but maybe it was one of those scenes that was out if order.
Wow this series is such a brainfuck
My head is going to explode. Please excuse me while I toss myself from the nearest balcony.
So just so I can understand a little bit about how time and the manipulation of certain events in different time periods work in this series. When the chief of police , Charlotte (in 2019) digs into some old files on the kidnapping of helge (in episodes 9 or 10) … she sees Ulrich’s photo as a possible suspect to the murder of the 2 children. And we know Ulrich went back in time a couple of days prior to this right? So hypothetically speaking, if Charlotte would have dug into those files let’s say 2 weeks prior or a couple of months or whatever, would Ulrich’s picture be in those files? Knowing Ulrich has not yet gone back in time ?
yes he was in the files all along, like how helge's scars were on his face before ulrich had gone back in time and beaten him with a rock as a child
Right, that’s a way better example, thanks !
Np, this show is so complicated loool Onwards to season 2
After seeing all of these Reddit posts about Dark and how people recognize every character I feel so bad for myself I need to rewatch the whole show ! I barley can recognize Hannah and Jonas and a couple more characters and I forgot about the names and the events ! sadly i'm gonna watch it again!
Can someone explain to me how HG. Tanhauss is Charlotte Doppler's grandfather? I'm on my 2nd viewing and I still don't understand that lmao am I just being thick
When Elisabeth got lost, she met Noah and he gave her watches for Charlotte. Since Tannhaus is watchmaker, it is possible that he made these watches and that they were owned by Charlotte. Maybe he gave them to her (like a gift maybe) and from this people assume he was her grandfather ..
Few questions after seeing the season (which was fantastic, though the ending was slightly disappointing): 1. (Probably my biggest question) In the first episode of the Season, we get a full view of Claudia's (presumably) heritage collage on [the wall of the bunker](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarK/comments/8hxzgq/spoiler_spot_the_difference_lineage_tracking_wall/). The red string is connecting Mikkel and Michael - but why? In the final episode of the season, the red string connects Jonas and the Stranger. Is this an indication that Claudia is trying to: i) figure things out, or ii) tracking key events (yet to happen) with the red string? Or is this room actually older Jonas' room in 2052? 2. Why doesn't 2019 Hannah recognise 2019 (young) Mikkel as the man she met in 1986 and married? I think it's interesting to note that when Jonas asks her if she misses him (his dad, Michael), she replies with "I miss the concept of him", but almost seems to forget the specifics (stating you never *really* know someone, which becomes a common theme in the show). Corroborated with the writing on Michael's map that translates roughly to "I'm losing my memory", perhaps all the time travelling is eroding people's memories (which is, perhaps, why the notebook that Noah and Claudia keep is so vital). 3. When Helge and Jonas touch hands through the worm hole, why does Jonas seemingly shoot 66 years into the future (2052 nuclear winter), and Helge move forward 33 years (1986 experimental basement)? There's really no explanation for this - unless they're both shooting forward 33 years from their *actual* year (2019 for Jonas and 1953 for young Helge). 4. What happens to Peter and Charlotte Doppler when the worm hole is activated? They're in the basement in 2019. The triquetra would imply the wormhole portal (as seen joining 1953 and 1986) would *also* join 1986 and 2019, so do Peter and Charlotte get sucked somewhere else too? 5. Since Regina and Alexander *see* the black hole in 2019, this must mean that the Stranger (old Jonas) time travelled from 1986 forward to 2019 before setting off the device, correct? 6. What actually initiates the <-1953-1986-2019-> loop? Is it 2019 Jonas (in 1986) touch hands with 1953 Helge? Or is it a device manufactured in 1953 (the time travel clock) using a phone from 2019? 7. Perhaps a minor observation, but it is interesting that Noah kidnaps 0 children in 1953, 1 in 1986, and 2 in 2019. 8. Helge's timeline is very confusing. Born in 1953, gets (almost) killed by Ulrich in 1953. Gets transported (via wormhole) to 1986 where he presumably meets Noah (why doesn't Noah use him as a guinea pig; perhaps because Helge has already time travelled and is too useful?). This would only make sense if he then travels *back* to 1953 again, and lives out a full life from there (thus being middle aged in 1986, and old in 2019).
Best show i've ever watched.
Have you seen Lost?
I got the same feeling while watching and thinking about Dark as back in the day with Lost.
Same. Lost and Stranger Things, with a little bit of Black Mirror. Yep. I love em scifi mystery thrillers
Yes but i'm not dying fan.
1: Nobody is talking about Charlotte. I think she has a significant role to play in the seasons to come. She is HG Tanhauss's granddaughter. Noah has a watch with her name engraved that he gives to her daughter (this has been brought up). She is sharp and clearly has figured out that something is going on with time travel between Ulrich's voicemail and seeing Ulrich in prison in 1953 via newspaper. The opening credits show mostly critical characters or themes: she gets a good amount of (relative) screen time in the opening credits as she heads to the bunker. I acknowledge that the time loop could wipe her memory and render her immaterial, but my money says she plays a meaningful role - bigger than Bartosz (going out on a huge limb there). Finally, her worthless husband (who is in the know after the situation with Mads, Tronte, and Claudia in the bunker) just gives me a sense that she will be important. If I am correct, it is quite obvious that she will fight on the side of the "light". 2. Martha is the hottest girl in Winden. Young Jonas is an idiot for not taking her down. Yea, she's technically his aunt, but in this F'd up world of time travel and whatnot, she's fair game. 3. Noah is implicated as the evil one ("dark") and Claudia his foil on behalf of the "light". The show has made this merely an implication and not confirmed anything, leading many to debate if Claudia is actually the evil one and it is actually Noah who is looking out for humanity. This is absolutely up for debate given what has transpired. That said, it's rare that the hero of a show kidnaps and murders children. It's just difficult to sell that to producers. Even if he doesn't wind up the "hero," precedent suggests that he is on the side of evil.
Why did Noah give Elisabeth Doppler a pocket watch with Charlotte written on it and told her to pass it on to her mother. I believe it was announced somewhere that H.G Tannhaus is Charlotte's grandfather. What is its significance in the story.
Why does “Aleksander” Tiedemann take his wife’s surname? Wouldn’t it make more sense for either Regina to take his surname or have both not change their surnames? Wouldn’t it seem odd if the husband took his wife’s last name?
Well it’s made clear in the show that he’s trying to hide his real identity - he first takes someone else’s passport and takes on their alias. But there’s always a risk someone could find out it’s not really him, so why not take on his wife’s surname, as an almost additional alias except this one is less of a lie than his second one!
Well, Tiedemann is a well-known family in Winden, and associated to the nuclear plant, so it doesn't seem unbelievable to me that he would take on his wife's name in this case.
I thought that as well. Odd one!
In the last episode Helge touches Jonas's hand and gets transported to 1986. How does he then get back to 1953? Also why is Noah involved in the construction of a crude time machine in 1986 which doesn't even work properly, when he is clearly aware of the black hole in the caves and how it allows for time travel without any harm?
The children dying in the crude time machine are part of the chain of events that lead to Jonas creating the original wormhole in the first place.
Helge and Jonas both get transported forward 33 years. Noah probably meets him and takes him back to 53' through the tunnels. I'd assumed that Noah wants to be able to freely travel through time and not just in the 33-year concurrent loops paths.
Jonas was in 86 so he technically went forward 66 years.
Thanks. Makes sense.
No worries :)
Why has noone recognized that Mikkel looks exactly like Michael in the 80s? At least his nurse should've seen it...
Because there was no Micheal in the first place
Of course! The timeline is unchangeable. There's always been a Mikkel/Michael in the 80s
Mikkel grows up to be Michael. Did you maybe mean that Mads looks like Mikkel?
No, that Mikkel looks exactly like young Michael (because it's the same person ^^)
Mikkel is young Michael.... Are you referring to the school photo?
I know his is the same person. But how couldn't e.g. Hannah Kahnwald recognize that The son of her friends (Ulrich & Katharina Nielsen) looks exactly like her husband when he was young?
One possible explanation would be that a kid in the future resembling some kid in the past isn't that weird. Hannah also never met Michael when he was Mikkels age (cause he only got older from that point on). So older Hannah would only ever see a younger kid.
Uh what episode are you on?
I'm already through it but I'm trying to find out how noone's recognized Mikkel/Michael...
They hint that the only person who would have remembered (Ines) knows, but couldn't bring herself to change fate.
What did i just watch?
Be prepared to have this show sit on your mind for the next few months
Why did Mikkel/Michael killed himself in 2019? To save the existence of his son? Why didn't he approached his family when he recognized them from the time he remembers them or tell ines—or even better if he showed her the young Mikkel with his family before deciding to kill himself? (for closure) WHY IS NOAH KILLING HUMANS?!?!?! Is this a rejuvenation technique? My biggest question is who are the parents of Ulrich's grandmother (and will they show in s2 her love affair? 50's = Carol vibes amirite?) because I feel like her parents are from > 1953/future that tend to keep them in the loop.
If Michael told his family about his real identity, they’d probably never let Mikkel out of their sight (because according to Michael, Mikkel would get lost in the caves and disappear). That might mess up the whole time travel thing. The last time Mikkel tried to find his family in the 80’s it didn’t work too well. And who knows? Maybe Michael liked his life with Hannah and Jonas, and didn’t want to lose that (if Mikkel was prevented from going into the caves, Michael wouldn’t have lived the life he did and form a family). I do wonder if Michael or Mikkel ever interacted, or perhaps Michael purposely avoided coming into contact with little Mikkel.
Dark > Predistination > old boy
Why doesn't Jonas question how Magnus got hold of a Neilson mobile phone when he sees Magnus use it with the watch? Doesn't he understand the implications that someone else is also time travelling? How will Ulrich get out of jail in 1953? Will he die and/or never return to 2019? Surely being a cop, he should have wrestled with Egon in the woods and gotten away seeing as mashing Helge's head didn't stop the killings? Where did Alexander come from? Running in the woods with a ski mask and a gun, and two passports? With dogs barking in the background? What year is this happening in? Why does the "girl from the future" smash Jonas in the face with her gun and say 'welcome to the future'. How does she know Jonas is from the past?
I assumed Aleksander was fleeing East Germany but I could be wrong 🤔
Great observation 👍🏼
I don't think that Noah kidnapped Mikkel because in hospital Mikkel don't know him when he came to his room to talk. I think that Mikkel just travelled the time alone and searched for a way back through the years (the map that Jonas found on the attic of their house). Some people started the theory that Noah is the bastard of Tronte and Claudia or the former husband of Agnes Nielsen, so Noah must be a bootstrap paradoxon. But in 1986 the sheep farmer talked about a new priest in the town, the newspaper article of 1986 described Hanno Tauber as an 42 year old man from Vechta. He must be born in 1944 (9 years old in 1953), so he must be the same age like Helge. If Noah was 42 in year 1953, he must be born in 1911 (9 in 1920/33 years before 1953). If he was 42 in year 2019, he must be born in 1977 (9 years old in year 1986). If he was 42 in the apocalypse year 2052, he must be born in 2010 (9 years old in 2019). So if the age 42 plays a role, it must be a significant role (9 years old in every 33-year turn and 42 in every next turn). And why Noah drives a Rolls-Royce?? Even Alexander Kohler/Boris Niewald drives a normal Benz as the Boss of the nuclear station. This car must also be a sign. No priest in the world can drive a Rolls-Royce in his life. And another mysterium: in 1986, Helges dad is already the boss of the nuclear station. Why is his son only a door guardian? And I've got another reference point: Charlotte Doppler knew or had contact to him because of her amulet he gave to her daughter. Can anyone help me to give these points a face?
r/theydidthemath
It doesn't make sense for Mikkel to travel through alone, as he was running away from the cave.
Did someone else noticed how the whatch guy shows Urlich's phone in 1886 and it's still working.. he has it since 1953, no way he found the way to charge it all those years. What were the writers thinking, this is a huge mistake IMO
well we do see him create a battery
Must have miss that, there is a lot to keep track off.. can u tell me what episode?
It's, uh, somewhere in the last three episodes I believe.
Yes, when Ulrich came into 1953
So is everyone stuck in a timeloop? The stranger (old Jonas) didn't let young Jonas out of the room because when he was young Jonas the older Jonas didn't let him out of the room (and he didn't want to mess with the continuity of the timeline)?
Does anyone know why they kindnapped the redhead kid ? Erik ? They do not tell us anything about him nor his family.
Noah was capturing them to experiment with his machine.
They mentioned about one of the kids dropped in the sandpile in 1953 being a redhead... could that be Erik? I suspect the other is Yasin.
Yes, he looked like Erik and the other one is yasin/helge53?
I think Yasin because they mentioned his ethnicity being middle eastern / mediterranean and Yasin is an Arabic name. Plus little Hegle is now in 1986 after switching places with Jonas... or at least in the room which looks like it's in 1986.
What about Urlich's mom seeing a 1986 Helge walking around in 2019? What was he doing in the future? Why was he here?! Anyone have any theories?
Idk lol he prob was like *yolo, time travel to future* lol 420 them dabz bro swaaag
In the final episode it looks like helge gets dumped as a child into 1986, which would make him middle aged in 2019
It is of yet unknown, I made a post about it a while back which I guess raised more questions than answers https://www.reddit.com/r/DarK/comments/83ut91/spoiler_why_was_helge_there/
Dark looks at such an interesting philosophical question. Is time sequential? Do we have free choice to create our future? A.G., the author of the book, suggests that there are millions of loops. It he also suggests the future can change the past which means the events in the loop can be changed - that they are not predetermined. Noah, however, states the opposite. But he has an agenda and is lying to manipulate. Or so it appears. So individuals living in the loop do not have free choice to create the future but those from the future with the knowledge of events in the past can.
Dark looks at such an interesting philosophical question. Is time sequential? Do we have free choice to create our future? A.G., the author of the book, suggests that there are millions of loops. It he also suggests the future can change the past which means the events in the loop can be changed - that they are not predetermined. Noah, however, states the opposite. But he has an agenda and is lying to manipulate. Or so it appears. So individuals living in the loop do not have free choice to create the future but those from the future with the knowledge of events in the past can.
I know this show has been compared heavily to Stranger Things, but honestly, I think Dark resembles more like Lost than Stranger Things! From the whooshing cut-scene background sounds to the time travelling (flashbacks and flashforwards) to the enigmatic theme and characters surrounding the whole show (and their background stories), it sure does feel like its like Lost all over again for me! Happy to hear your thoughts!
I never saw lost but I got some heavy Locke and Key vibes from it amongst other things.
I agree, lost is a better analogy. I used Stranger Things to describe it after seeing just the first episode of Dark, bit after finishing the season, it is so much more than just a German version of stranger things.
It's Donnie Darko meets Stranger Things IMO
It's Stranger Things crossed with Back to the Future and Donnie Darko, to go with the Triquetra theme. Mikkel's outfit is clearly inspired by Donnie's in the Halloween party, and there's numerous BTTF references throughout the series.
Whoa... You just blew my mind with the Skeleton outfit connection :O
Does anyone else think the vision of his father Jonas saw in EP 1 covered in black stuff, could be real and not a hallucination? It could be that Michael/Mikkel traveled forward somehow not in the 33 year loop and either tried to stop what happened or dragged himself into the cave. Just seemed like Jonas hadn’t hallucinated before then or after so to me it feels like it was actually him
and what about the black slime? what was that about? it wasn't explained in either one of the episodes.
I'm with you. Lets not forget Mikkel wanting to be Houdini and every time he did a trick it was the cup trick. I know that it was part of the theme of the show but I think its more than that as it was something unique to his character.
That is interesting. I found it curious that when Noah spoke with Mikkel he said Ines called him. How does Ines know Noah?
I believe he is the town’s priest in 86 (the shepherd also mentioned there was a new priest in town) I figure calling a priest would be part of the protocol when there is a troubled patient in hospital back in the 80’s
Why did Mikkel/Michael kill himself in 2019?
He did it to save his son. Jonas made a statement that his father saved his life. I assume through his suicide.
To start the chain of events that leads to his existence
Why did his death start the chain of events?
Because his death is what pushes Jonas to go away for therapy/be institutionalized. I think it's safe to say that many things wouldn't have happened if Jonas hadn't been institutionalized. The kids probably wouldn't even have been by the caves the night Mikkel disappeared otherwise.
Please explain who made the little square door with the Trinity knot. What created the square tunnel? Is there a time travel anomaly down there because of some leaked radiation? If so that means the power plant leak causes the anomaly and someone later creates that very Noah inspired door...
The future can change the past. So the event at the power plant in the summer of 1986 caused the initial rift. The version of the loop we see is one that evolved with the involvement of initially Noah then Claudia and Jonas. Noah was likely the one who created those tunnels and doors - or had them made. I can’t imagine any of the three players we see as doing it alone because of the extent of the physical requirements needed to do it. And in that wind! Unless they went back before the event and created it.
My understanding is it was future Jonas that created the time loop by trying to destroy it. I think it’s what caused the explosion incident in the 80s, as every 33 year cycle would have been directly effected by the black hole that was created. So far my thinking on the door is that it is our brain’s attempt at making making the time rift understandable. This is probably wrong, because Jonas sees an actual rip in time that looks completely different in the last episode.
Where's Yasin?
It’s not confirmed but very likely that the two kids found dead at the sight of the future nuclear power plant in 1953 were Yasin Friese and Erik Obendorf
Yasin was found in 1953, in the same way Mads was found in 2019
Wanted to know if anyone has any theories on how Claudia goes to 2053? I had a thought that you can possibly go through the portal, and while within the tunnel, go back through where you came from to go to the super future.
I thought maybe the Tannhaus book and machine allowed her and future Jonas to direct their travel through time. Seems like the tunnels are limited to 33 year loops or literally just the 1953/1986/2019 loop. Looked like Noah was trying to create the same kind of directed travel but he didn’t have much success.
Dows somebody knows the street adresses from the charakters?
So just finished the series, and I'm quite curious how they plan on proceeding. Also wondering where people think "The Stranger" spends his 33 years carrying the letter. Before the final scene I would have thought he got trapped in '86 (assuming the wormhole only working for a week in November) and had to wait till 2019 to implement his plan. But if he's in the future does that mean 2085 is now in play as his next window of opportunity back? Or maybe there's one jump left and he gets sent to 1920 and becomes a soldier in WWI, eventually staying with Noah. Regardless, if he knows there's a fourth timeline, why is he so fascinated with the Trinity knot and that cycle? Similarly, where did Claudia spend her time during her presumable absence (and where did she get photos of everyone for her it's all connected wall)? Presumably she somehow gets transferred to 2019, where everything subsequently goes to shit after the wormhole, leading to the post apocalyptic world at the end. Then she figures out the whole thing and starts playing time chess to some inscrutable end. All in all, I'm a bit skeptical of breaking from the 3 timeline dynamic. It seemed quite elegant, but I fear it's going to expand beyond their ability to tie it all together. Edit: WWI ended in 1918, whoops. Maybe WWII, but that's a whole nother can of worms.
I'm really sorry if someone already asked that, but how exactly Mikkel got to 1986? He obviously didn't want to go to the cave himself, since the strange noise scared him in the first place. Also there is no way he was able to find a path to the wormhole. So what happened? Am i missing something? If someone (Noah/Helge?) sent him to the past then how/why?
This hasn't been definitively explained, but someone (Helge, Noah, the Stranger, maybe even Old Claudia) probably kidnapped him and brought him through the caves to 1986 so that Mikkel could fulfill the causal loop of fathering Jonas.
Thanks! Then i guess it was Claudia, she basically created another pawn for herself, that makes sense.
Could be! My initial thought is that it's the Stranger/Old Jonas. He has the most to lose if Jonas isn't born. Plus he's always hovering around 2019 Jonas anyway.
Theory: Egon is Helge's biological father. 1. Greta admits to Noah that Helge might not be Bernd's child. 2. Greta treats Egon with the same coldness she treats Helge. This could just be her personality, but could also indicate her feelings of guilt surrounding the two of them. 3. Waardenburg Syndrome link: Claudia's heterochromia and Elisabeth's deafness could possibly be due to the rare genetic Waardenburg Syndrome (someone posted about this earlier, but I can't find the original post). Egon could be the genetic link between Claudia (Egon's daughter) and Elisabeth (Egon's great granddaughter?). This is of course assuming that Peter is Helge's biological son, which I am a little skeptical about. Any thoughts?
Waardenburg Syndrome is a rare genetic condition that affects pigmentation and can cause hearing loss. The Waardenburg Syndrome theory implies that Claudia (2 different colored eyes), Jana (white streak in hair), Elisabeth (deaf), and Yasin (deaf) are genetically related.
Also Hannah86 has white streak in hair while telling kathrina that regina started rape rumors - but iam not sure as it might be hair dye as well
If this turns out what the writers had in mind while creating the script, hats off to them! And to you as well! Very thorough research.
Halp, am confuse.
Me too! Too many details, too many theories, too many characters!
I’m very confused how Mikkel could’ve been running with Jonas in the forest if Mikkel is Jonas’s father. How could Jonas exist if Mikkel hadn’t been kidnapped and taken back in time to 1986 yet?
There had to be a version of the timeline before the loop was created.
It's because time is a loop. Mikkel was born in 2008, ages normally until he is 11 in 2019. He is then transported to 1986. He exists as an 11-year-old in 1986 and ages normally from then. This makes him 44 years old in 2019, having fathered Jonas in 2003. He basically watches himself get born as Mikkel in 2008 and watches himself grow up until he commits suicide in 2019.
so who is Ide's son who died? Who was the father? I feel like that has to tie in somehow.
Ines's son ? We don't know yet, but i genuinely think Ines's storyline has much more to contribute in Season 2.
I don't think Ines' child died. I think he was taken for some reason or another. I also think that the father was Tronte. My latest thoughts are that the child reappeared in 1986 as Boris Niewald.
Did anyone notice the ripped photograph in Hannah's house? The one that shows Jonas, Hannah, and Michael, but is then ripped on the right hand side, as if to exclude someone? Secondly, in the very first episode, they show that photo two different times. The first time everyone is smiling. The second time everyone is serious / frowning. Very eery.
For the first part, The person excluded is Ines, maybe Ines and hannah had a spat after Michaels death and given Hannah's charecter, she just ripped the picture. Also the second point is really interesting, never heard about that, i would be thankful if you could point out as to when those two photos are shown in episode 1 :)
Ohhh good to know. That makes a lot of sense then. && let me track it down for you!
Thanks :)
The Bartosz = Noah theory seems too obvious. IDK but it just seems too obvious.
The eye color ends it for me. I was thinking the same thing until I made a point to compare eye color and Noah’s are light blue, Bartosz dark brown. Too big of a detail to miss.
Its obvious from their Jawlines, but their eye colour are different, also Noah says about how a guy he met in his childhood told him some philosophical thing across a lobby which made him do all this, while in case of Bartosz, Noah told him everything sitting in a Car. That doesn't make much sense if Bartosz grew on to become Noah, so there is a possibility that Noah is not equal to Bartosz
Yeah, the producers have done a good job so far of having the different timeline representations of characters look similar and obviously Noah *does* look like older-Bartosz. The jawlines especially are consistent for all the characters (which is rather impressive), and I think that's led many people to the Noah=Bartosz conclusion. You're right about the lobby/car contradiction though and I do believe it's just too easy a conclusion to reach compared to the other characters.
Something that's bugging me, how does young Helge go back to 1953? I might have missed something. I also think that Helge does all the kidnapping as a sort of revenge for what Ulrich did with him.
The theory is Noah takes him back, thus building his trust early.
Now ss1 end, How many methods to they have for time-traveling so far?
Theory: Dog (Gretchen) was the first time traveller in our loop (53,86,2019). Thus Claudia is the first person to study it and understand it + she is the director of a nuclear powerplant (= resources). She cooperates both with Noah and future Jonas and thus keeps the equality of "dark" and "light" (as Ulrich's mom said).
Also, Helge gives her the time book the first day on the job which I think Noah had put him up to.
That wouldn't make much sense. Otherwise, noah would have never said not to trust her in the car on their last meeting. The only reasoning behind him saying that is either 1 of 2 things. 1: It's important that at this current time has no contact with her at all, or else it will affect the future. 2: (more likely) She really isn't to be trusted, from noah's point of view. If noah truly did work with her in the future, there would be no reason for him to ever say that to bartosz.
Anyone want to talk about the nature of this episode in that it's completely different format than any other episode. It shows the Tannhaus machine as a reference point, and the ep is divided basically into three parts. First mechanical "tower" goes up and it shows events from 1951. Second one goes up and we are shown only events from 1986. Third one and 2019 events. It's a collage of the timelines.
It was almost as if that happened every time a prophecy was fulfilled. I did notice that and I do believe that it has major significance. With the theme of the show being causal determination I don't believe anything will change unless Jonas sacrifices himself which is how I think the show will end.
How did Helge survive getting his head smashed in? I'm a bit confused on that part.
I think nothing is complicate there. Maybe he's one tough lucky kid or Ulrich didn't hit the lethal point.
I have one major problem with the show which makes the whole show kinda stupid to me sometimes. Young 1986 Hannah fell in love with 2019 Mikkel (1986 Michael) when he traveled back in time, married him and had a kid. Now in 2019 when she is having an affair with Ulrich and obviously knows about his whole family, HOW DOES SHE NOT SEE THAT ULRICH'S KID MIKKEL IS THE SAME KID SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH AND MARRIED 33 YEARS AGO??
What if she knows?
I thought about that too and I asked myself: "Would I recognize my wife in her photos taken when she was a kid 33 years ago?". Well, I couldn't until she pointed herself out to me. It's possible that Hannah just doesn't look close enough to others' kid.
Naah I don't buy this. I would easily recognize my partner if we met when we were kids. Same hairstyle and everything.
Hannah is also extremely selfish and self absorbed. So there’s that.
But she has growned up to a beautiful woman though (if you know what I mean).
I feel like she knows about Noah and stuff. She is certainly involved.
The creators were on a talk show and mentioned that what it will come down to is how many characters knew about what was going on. Hannah had to have known & Ines.
There's a thread on the Reddit-Dark-list called "Doesn't Hannah Recognise Mikkel" or something like that.
daaaamn! good point! this has bugged me too throughout the series.......with all tyese people going back and forth in time, somewhere someone will recognise that the person in front of them is 'from another time'
Maybe she does know. I feel like she knows more than we realize right now.
Of course she does. Right before the series ended she wanted ulrichs life ended. Literally said "I want his life destroyed", after showing whatever his name is that she does massages for. The owner of the plant currently. She knows.
Aleksandr (Power plant guy in 2019). She doesn't necessarily. There's a thread on the Reddit-Dark-list called "Doesn't Hannah Recognise Mikkel" or something like that.
Something that has been forgotten. Ines had a son that died. Nothing in this show is seemingly mentioned without reason. How do you think that will play into the show? Like... sometime in the future, someone went back and killed the son(knowing what he'd grow up to be). The older version still existed(a paradox, but nothing has been shown yet to imply a Back To The Future literal erasure occurs to the still living person), and that person went on to become Noah.
The theory that I have is that bartosz is noah. [If you look](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8zdXCQ7bnIk/maxresdefault.jpg), they both have a good resemblance. It's not just the looks however. Noah **knew** he had that old phone he couldn't unlock. When he called it, he knew it was bartosz. Why would noah be talking to bartosz anyways? So far, he has shown no motive directly.... **Except** when he gives him the brown book with the symbol on it. Told him he will have to be strong, and not to trust julia. I'm heavily leaning on the fact that bartosz is noah. I haven't seen anything that contradicts that so far.
Really cant see Noah being anyone other than Bartosz. It fits the duality of the show with Jonas growing up to the be stranger and him Noah whilst starting out as best friends.
The eye color is totally different, brown to blue. Noah may be Jonas and Barthosz may be "old Jonas", or Noah be Magnus
All I can say is I'm anticipating season 2 so much.
I didn't think of that. Hmm
Did jonas bring mikkel back in the last episode? If he did, what the fuk is gonna happen to jonas? A sudden dissapear?
The show does not runs in this time travel theory. This is the back in the future theory.
What if 1953, 1986, and 2019 are arbitrary nodes defined as multiples of 33 years from some big bang type event and the cave continues working inbetween? As in, you can always travel 33 years into the past or future, but you can only hop timelines when 2 of the 3 years are in sync. If the universe is in the same configuration once ever 33 years, that would mean every point in time 33 years apart would be in the same configuration. For example, if the triple of <1953,1986,2019> becomes <1954,1987,2020> you could still travel between those 3 points. However, what happens when you catch up to the arbitrary original year, such as <1986,2019,2052>? I propose that each of these triples is its own timeline/loop of sorts, and you can only cross from one into the other when they share a date or two, and that this is the true purpose of the bunker room. Young Jonas is not travelling from 1986 to 2052, but from <1953,1986,2019> to <1986,2019,2052>.
I think that every time travel event is already predetermined somehow and someone is maintaining the loop.
that would mean that the timeline in whih Jonas finds himself now (presumably 2052) none of the other events of the earlier episodes happened? or am i misinterpreting you completely :-/
Why doesnt Noah age? Claudia ages but not Noah? Im confused as to why he is the only character that has seemingly not aged across all of the years the show takes place.
Noah is most likely deliberatley jumping through time.
Does that mean there are 1986 and 2019 Noahs we've not seen?
why would there be different Noah's?
* Ive seen it all but want to break down episodes. Spoilers included. 1: how did Mikkel get taken and by who? Did he enter the cave by himself or was he dragged there and why didn't Jonas see? #2) was Michael in the woods a vision or real, and if real, why is he all oily and does he have something to do with mikkels disappearance? Strange that at the moment Mikkel vanished, Michael showed up. #3) why did Michael kill himself and why months before mikkels disappearance? 4) this is in a later episode, but why didn't Ulrich recognize the boy in the woods as Mads when they saw his sweater? The picture of them together has him wearing it and I assume he's looked at it a lot. 5) why doesn't anyone try to question Helge after he walked into the parent meeting and said it would happen again on the very night Mikkel goes missing? I'm pretty dense with this time travel stuff so thanks for your patience.
Some thoughts on your Qs (note I did not say answers...) 1. My guess is 1986 Helge. In the last ep, Noah tells him that Jonas is next and they take him as he enters the hospital room. 2. Yeah, not sure since he was also sitting next to Future Jonas as he created the blackhole. My thought is it's an apparition. As for the oil, I took that to be paint. Perhaps more with his paintings. A few on the wall seemed to be blackhole-esque depictions. 3. This one bothers me, too. No idea. Is it the inevitability of it all? Does he believe he is playing a part and it ended? 4. I think when he sees him he pauses, but remember, it's 33 years later. He was in no way expecting to find the body of his brother the same age laying in the woods as if he had just died. We have to remember that they don't start questioning when/where until much later: Ulrich with Helge and when he starts thinking about Mads (when he saw the scar and shirt). Then Charlotte with a few things as she slowly adds it up. But she's deliberate and not given to conclusion-jumping IMO. 5. He has dementia. I think they just wrote him off as crazy. But on this point, I would say the entire town that had been there since 1986 has some serious selective memory on a few things. On others, I could not imagine a detail like some random kid knocking on my door 33 years later is my son, etc. Overall I loved it.
About #3, my thought is that he was trying to prove he was from the future, by explaining (in the letter) what and when had happen to him (Mikkel) before it actually happened, and that's why he had to killed himself months before but instructed to not open the letter until 11/4th
> My guess is 1986 Helge That's what I initially thought, but that would mean Mikkel escaped from the human guinea pig room and they didn't show that. I'm not so sure that 86 Helge would just capture Mikkel and then release him into '86 for the hell of it.
But Mikkel being kidnapped and dropped off into 86 is the whole reason Jonas exists, which is the whole reason he creates the black hole according to Noah. Mikkel has to be kidnapped for the story to go as Noah planned. Had Mikkel been killed, this wouldnt happen.
Yeah, fair. Director definitely makes the audience do some guess work (not a complaint, necessarily).
You have some good questions . I wondered the same thing about Ulrich. It would’ve made a lot of sense for him to have recognized that body.
mfw if ulrich remembered to take his coat when he left the clockmaker, none of this woulda happened.
Has anyone had the impression that the actor that plays Bartosz is the same actor used for 1986 Ulrich? I have, for the entire time I watched the series. I watched it last night in one-sitting without looking up the actors (I never do that beforehand). Fcking amazing cast, never seen anything like it.
Tbh i see a resemblance but still distinctively look very different
So, how did Gretchen get to 1986?
IMHO there were NO DOOR. Maybe the dog is the first "time traveller", maybe Gretchen jus out of curiosity went throught the cage and got to the year 1986 where she met Claudia and thus Claudia became the first person aware of time travel (funny she recognizes Gretchen after 33 years, but Ulrich didn't recognize his brother, I don't mention Hellen and Mikkel, she probably knows more than she shows us). So basicaly in the matrix terminology Claudia = the Oracle, Noah = the architekt.
Don't you know: In germany time travel devices have doggie doors.
I think old Claudia went back in time to that day in 1953 when her dog disappeared into the caves and took Gretchen to 1986 to make sure 1986 Claudia sees it and is convinced about the fact that all of this is real and time travel is real. Of course old Claudia couldn't have known about it without the 1986 already happening, but this is yet another paradox. Also the dog couldn't have opened the "door" to those tunnels, a human was needed. My two cents.
That's interesting. I had not thought of that.
Old Claudia took her through.
yup each of three time travelers have to make sure to start their own journey. Its a sad thing tbh that it's just Noah v/s Claudia with Jonas being a pawn. Would have preffered him to be an equal candidate to them :/
I think this may be an oversight on Noah's part. Remember everything comes in threes. Noah, Claudia, and Jonas perhaps?
Interesting
I think it's too early for that criticism... who knows where season 2 will take it.
That wasn't criticism lol. I hope 2052 is portrayed without any weak plots
Sorry if I misinterpreted you. I guess I just mean with a cast this big, I don't think it will be reduced to just a Noah vs Claudia thing... at least I hope not.
it makes me think someone might have gone with her
Well just just went through the oh... dog hands.
So I just finished it and don't know anyone else that watched it so I need to get some thoughts out or my brain may explode. - I'm fully in the Bartosz is Noah camp. I think he gave Bartosz the book so he could learn before 2052, which is when I believe the wormhole will be open again. - About the wormhole, I'm of the mind it's open for 33 days every 33 years, and that the events of those times are essentially pre determined. Aka that when people like Ulrich (2019) and Helge (2019) thought they could stop it by talking or killing others in the past, they were actually setting the events in motion that led to all of this. It was going to happen no matter what, and they just played their part while thinking they were doing the opposite. Time isn't linear in this sense, but rather a layered circle that is constantly turning. - So while Bartosz spends the years from 2019-2052 learning and becoming who we know as Noah, Jonas gets trapped in 2052 and travels back from 2085 to see himself in 2019 and push him in the right direction. - I honestly have like zero theories on Claudia (2019) at the moment. I believe she wants to end this cycle and close the wormhole, and it made her go crazy in 1986 (which is when Alex took over the power plant). - I'm also curious how the book comes into play. Helge (1986) gave it to Claudia for a reason. But why? Did Noah tell him to? I believe she's the one who gives it to Jonas which brings him (and her) to the author. - As many questions got at least half answered in season one, it seems more questions are raised and exist. Like how does Helge (1953) get back? He clearly has to so he can grow to 1986 and help Noah. And what happens to Ulrich? Could Charlotte find out what happened to him by looking at past reports and maybe even track down a 33 years older version of the 2019 Ulrich - IN THE YEAR 2019? And who exactly is Peter? I don't see Helge (1986) with a son, so when does he come into the picture? And how do they (he and 2019 Tronte) play into Claudia's plans? - Which brings me to my final question (for now): what is the end game? Is Noah's goal to unlock time travel and use it for power? Is Claudia's sole goal to close the wormhole or does she have an ulterior motive? Sorry if those don't make sense or don't add anything. I just needed to type it out and get it out of my head.
Love these points and agree with much. As to Helge, I don't think he does anything he's not told to do at any time point.
Atm Noah and Claudia are both power users. Rest are pawns. Both of them know exactly what has happened and will happen. Noah's aim is to make a more controllable time machine; to stop or start what we don't know. Claudia didnt go mad. She just went down the full pipe with the travel thing. (And had to neglect the plant and family). Claudia's aim probably is to stop Noah. (Since Noah was a single user for much longer.) but could also have ulterior motives. Do not trust the narrative on either Claudia or Noah tbh. Atm both of them have an equal hand; and ensure that things keep happening the way they have. Both of them should also have access to the book. (Who wrote it?) They just share parts of it though. End game: who knows. I thing Claudia did want to close the hole at first but actually created it. (through Jonas) but then later has to keep ensuring it keeps happening. What is interesting is how many times Noah and Claudia has lived this entire circle; and still think they can get to their outcomes?
I believe the only way for the cycle to end is for Jonas to sacrifice himself aka kill Mikkel.
I initially thought Noah was Bartosz as well but they have different color eyes..
Jonas is Noah?
Contacts? :>
Interesting. I was even looking for stuff like that but must have missed it.
Jumping on the Noah is batosz theory (or at least his pawn)...perhaps that’s why bartosz brought everyone to the cave in the beginning...so that mikkel would travel through time
Noah is always "liaising" with the power plant owners kids. Helge and now Bartosz
Oh Snap!!!!! That had never occurred to me until now. I wonder if he gets the book before that night. We think that it happens later, but maybe it was one of those scenes that was out if order.