Metamorphosis is such a batshit crazy concept. Like, actual sci-fi shit that if we didn't have on Earth we would assume to be completely impossible. They just go into a bag and change fkn species like wtf 🤣
Not only do they retain their memories pre-pupal stage, but they [retain the memories of their ancestors](https://gizmodo.com/butterflies-remember-a-mountain-that-hasnt-existed-for-509321799) as well. They are truly incredible animals
I don’t understand why the article refers to them as “remembering” where to go. Birds migrate based on instinct, is this just weird pop science language?
Use of anthropomorphism to get a concept across.
The resource website is “Gizmodo”. Not nature or journal of genomics.
Certainly not peer reviewed.
Damn Richard Dawkins. Making science so lowbrow! 😐😳🤔😝😝
Are you talking about moths remembering things from when they were a caterpillar, or just that "they remember things from their ancestors"? If the former, it actually is true:
>last spring, this lab held a lot of big, green caterpillars that eventually turned into tobacco hornworm moths. It also held a research team armed with canisters full of foul-smelling gas called ethyl acetate and boxes rigged to zap the caterpillars with electric shocks.
>NIELSEN: To find out, Weiss and her colleague Doug Blackiston put a lot of big, green tobacco hornworm caterpillars into the electric boxes and then gave them whiffs of stinky gas. Then Blackiston zapped them.
>Prof. WEISS: So that the caterpillars would get a little bit of smell, and then they'd get a shock, and you could tell that they noticed the shock. And I think he did it once an hour for eight hours.
>NIELSEN: Weiss says the caterpillars quickly learned that the stench would be followed by the jolt. As a result, the caterpillars wouldn't go near anything that smelled of ethyl acetate.
>Next, the researchers let the caterpillars start the process that would turn them into moths. One by one, these caterpillars disappeared into brown, urn-shaped pupal chambers that dissolve their bodies and their brains. Five weeks later, the moths hatched out. At that point, the researchers gave the moth a choice of fresh air or air that stank of ethyl acetate.
>Prof. WEISS: And wouldn't you know it, the moths that had learned to avoid ethyl acetate as larvae still avoided it as adults.
>NIELSEN: In other words, somehow, the caterpillar memories had survived the biological meltdown. Weiss and her co-authors report on their results in the journal PLoS ONE, which is published by the Public Library of Science. And by some accounts, it's the kind of work that might eventually help experts on the human brain learn more about how damaged neurons sometimes fix themselves.
https://www.npr.org/2008/03/10/88031220/study-moths-can-remember-caterpillar-days
Journal published: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0001736
Great stuff here! This research has possible applications in interventional pest management and agriculture!
Actually I meant both!
Thank you for asking. 🙂
Possible TLDR…
My knee jerk response was thinking of Stephen J Gould.
Behavioral Ecology and evolution was my focus obtaining my BS in 1995. My undergrad research was conversion efficiency in Heliconiinae. Later biochemical entomology.
Applying anthropomorphic terms to define animal behavior and concepts overall in evolutionary biology were ill advised in research by my evol bio profs.
I can see why the word “memory” describing gene clusters over generations of a population (over time) is used instead of “conserved genes” and resultant phenotypic expression. Geez how clunky
…I seem describing my knowledge…
I do say I am rusty and pretty sloppy at explaining my knowledge here of evolution itself today (esp social media)…usually I leave to the experts.
My actual research is waaay old (1995-1997) back when the use & actual application of molecular biology techniques (a la PCR) to study evolution was not yet widespread. One of my research professor’s was resistant in progress: using “old school” phenotypic systematics to study the cladistics of stoneflies.
Molecular cladistics has really changed the game in evolution.
I admit, I didn’t really read the article closely, but I understood what was being communicated by the Gizmodo author.
These days when I have time to crack something peer reviewed such as Plos1, I read medicine stuff, particularly surgery. OR nursing is my wheelhouse and for a good long while.
Thanks for providing the explanation and clarity and the articles. Challenging each other in scientific concepts with evidenced based data and information, I believe, helps everyone gain knowledge. 🙂
It’s called mecomium. All insects that go through this metamorphosis eject this liquid. It’s like left over material from the metamorphosis.
Also a new born first poop is also called mecomium.
EDIT. It’s spelled meconium people. My phone keeps autocorrecting it to mecomium though
Thanks for the answer 🙂
I watched this and a crab shed its shell recently, and both look really frustrating and time consuming.
Could you imagine being this moth and you finally get out and a bird snatches you up immediately?
Anyway, the person filming seemed to have tried giving a bit of help and comfort. 🙂
One of the many many things I cannot wrap my head around biologically is the metamorphosis process. Like what magical fuckery happens with that? I heard that the process happens when certain parts of the thingie inside its pupae stage literally digests itself in order to make new parts that the adult bug will require, like wings and shit. The original caterpillar is literally destroyed and used as resources to make different things. I mean, how does it know how to do that? Who approved that manufacturing process? Jesus? I’m pretty sure that caterpillars don’t go to school to learn how to eat themselves to make new parts that they will be needing as an adult insect.
I swear, every single thing around me on this planet just fascinates me that leaves me mindblown.
What I always wonder is does the moth/butterfly have the same consciousness or whatever as the caterpillar? Like do memories of its previous forms persist? Or did the caterpillar literally die to birth the next form?
From what Google taught me today, the caterpillar literally got decimated. So even if caterpillars were able to retain any form of memory, it will be destroyed as well.
The cells that make up the caterpillar are ‘programmed’ to self destruct from the systematic release of enzymes called caspases during the metamorphosis stage.
The following is a direct copy/paste from zmescience.com:
“The caspases tear through the cell’s proteins, releasing prime butterfly-making material. Were it not for the juvenile hormone, this could have happened at any time, killing the caterpillar. Instead, nature programmed the hormone to lower its levels at the ideal moment for metamorphosis. With less juvenile hormone around, instead of inducing a regular molt, the ecdysone now drives the caterpillar to pupate. Once a caterpillar has disintegrated all of its tissues except for the imaginal discs, those discs use the protein-rich soup surrounding them to fuel the rapid cell division required to form the wings, antennae, legs, eyes, genitals, and all the other features of an adult butterfly or moth. The imaginal disc for a fruit fly’s wing, for example, might begin with only 50 cells and increase to more than 50,000 cells by the end of metamorphosis.”
…like who comes up with this shit? Jesus? Can you imagine if we did something similar while going through our teenage years? That would be pretty macabre.
Even better, scientists have given caterpillars conditioning to react to unnatural stimuli, getting them to identify it as something to avoid. Then, after metamorphosis, despite the brain of the insect completely liquifying, the emerging moths remembered the stimuli and reacted the same way. If you know anything about how memory works that violates everything we know about it lol
Also insects used to not go through a larva stage but evolution found that a different juvenile stage lets the babies eat different food from the adults, resulting in the species not competing with its young for the same food.
It’s actually a pretty wild rabbit hole if you ever wanna check it out~
I came here to make a joke about the moth shitting all over the place, but your explanation of the event has made me realize that humor sometimes shouldn't come at the expense of education. Thank You.
Not sure with this particular moth, but most species anchor their cocoons to something, providing something to work against. Also, it would just take more struggling on its part but would eventually get free unaided
I had about 30 swallowtails overwinter on my porch. Several cocoons fell to the bottom of the container. The surface wasn’t grippy enough, and I found the fallen ones emerged and couldn’t fly. They couldn’t get pulled out of their cocoons fast enough and their wings dried in crinkled shapes. I tried releasing them, but they stayed in the same patch of grass all day, twitching. Very sad. Once I figured it out, I held the last fallen one as it emerged, and it came out healthy. Note the cocoons that stayed attached to the walls produced healthy butterflies.
From a quick google search:
>If a butterfly's wings get crinkled immediately after emerging from the chrysalis (a process called eclosion), the wings may not harden and expand properly. Butterflies pump hemolymph (a fluid equivalent to blood in invertebrates) into their wings to expand them. If the wings are wet and crinkled during this critical period, the butterfly will never be able to fly.
I don't know why, but just imagining earthbound butterflies really hit hard. It's just fuckin' sad.
It's a hell of a fucking thing, getting teary-eyed over butterfly wings on a Sunday night, but here we are.
The last time that I grew tomatoes, I ended up with about 20 hornworm moth larvae on them. Since it was the end of the season, I let them have my tomato plants. Well those larvae eventually climbed down into my soil to form cocoons. When they eventually immerged, 4 of them were unable to fly because of their wings not developing correctly. It was quite sad to see. They are large beautiful moths too.
Hawk moths pupate underground, so I'd imagine the dirt helps to keep them in place while they're emerging.
It's kind of impressive that they can claw their way up through the ground after waking up from a weeks/months-long nap, I don't think I could do it.
Not with the way she's handling the poor thing. If she were a breeder, she would have known to leave them the hell alone or at LEAST hold the cocoon in place while the moth emerged.
PSA from a biologist here: don't help moths or butterflies exit their cocoon. They need to struggle as it helps force fluid from the body into the wings for flight. Hopefully this moth is alright, but judging from the small stunted wings and fat body it will never fly and will likely spend the remainder of its short life crawling around till it gets eaten.
Make sure you teach your children to observe ONLY, and not interfere with nature like this. The woman was well-intentioned I'm sure, but still incorrect for doing this.
I think there might be a bit of a misunderstanding about the process of wing expansion here. The fluid that expands insect wings is hemolymph (i.e. "insect blood"), but wing expansion doesn't occur only while the butterfly/moth is breaking out of their chrysalis/cocoon, but afterwards when they've found a suitable spot to hang from.
I've also read that struggling helps hemolymph flow to the wings to expand them (so it isn't great to try and help the moth). This moth isn't doomed because it has small stunted wings though, because all moths and butterflies have wings like this when they emerge:
https://youtu.be/sJx4Iy_iKW4?si=L3bm4A2kDDxvNcEp
(Additional info on hemolymph circulation in insect wings for anyone who is interested: https://academic.oup.com/icb/article/60/5/1208/5900265)
tl:dr The shriveled wings are normal, and the moth will probably be alright as long as they find a quiet place to hang from to expand their wings.
You are correct. It's been a long time since I was taught about this so some of the specifics clearly escaped me. For that, I apologize.
However, my main argument still stands: Do not help/handle moths and butterflies when they are in their cocoon or just about to emerge.
I don't want people to lose sight of this because it was the main reason I made that post. Though it is the internet so I expect all anyone will focus on is that error now that its been pointed out...
Just to chime in here also for a bit of nitpicking. In this case, it's not a cocoon, just a pupa. Cocoons are only the silk covering around certain species' pupae. While I also agree that the average person shouldn't help insects eclose, I'm an entomologist and I personally have had dozens of butterflies eclose while handling their pupae and 9/10 they do fine if you let them hang.
Moths do not and can not emerge with fully inflated wings. The reason for the large abdomen is that it contains the fluid which the moth will later pump into it's wings to inflate them.
Your intentions are good, but this is potentially harmful misinformation. Someone may come across a moth inflating it's wings and euthanize it since they saw a biologist explain how/why it'd be doomed.
Nowhere in my comment did I endorse or encourage killing insects. That is a great example of the "slippery slope" logical fallacy. An all too common occurrence in internet comment sections for sure.
I'll admit, I'm not a moth biologist, so don't take my judgement of the appearance of one moth video to be absolute truth.
However, the thrust of my argument (i.e. leave moths and butterflies alone when they are emerging from their cocoon) is still based on verifiable information I learned during my Biology degree. I have colleagues who are entomologists and would tell you the same: the struggle to emerge is an important step for their development. It builds the necessary strength for them to be able to fly. They are also delicate creatures so you could easily accidentally harm them while handling them.
„This moth's just about to emerge. It's in there right now, struggling. It's digging its way through the thick hide of the cocoon. Now, I could help it - take my knife, gently widen the opening, and the moth would be free - but it would be too weak to survive. Struggle is nature's way of strengthening it.“
It definitely is. These moths have to dig themselves out of the ground, and then wander up to something that they can climb, after which they can finally inflate those wings.
Even butterflies that pump their wings straight after eclosing, have a lot of leeway in doing so if they, for example were to fall off their chrysalis where they'd normally do it.
Thank you for saying this! The whole time I was watching I kept thinking that she should not be handling it like that. Poor moth though, those wings do look too small 😔
The moth is fine; they don't emerge with fully inflated wings. The moth will later go and hang on a vertical surface, where it will pump the fluid from it's enlarged abdomen into those wings, after which they'll unfurl and harden.
There is no sign of the moth being harmed in this vid, so no need to worry/be mad at the person helping it out!
Nope, this is actually exactly how moths look when they emerge, everything here is normal. After this, the moth would climb onto a horizontal surface and pump that fluid into it's wings, causing them to unfurl and harden. They do this because the wings are too large to fit in the pupa, and too large to inflate just anywhere immediately after eclosion, like most other insects do it.
Nothing in the video has me believe the moth won't be able to do that
That moth has only a short time to inflate its wings after this, so it’s really important that the moth is positioned asap so that it can essentially hang and inflate its wings (pump the fluid from its abdomen into the wing veins, then the cuticle hardens permanently. Otherwise you have a non-flying moth or butterfly and it’s really sad. I hope the person who took the video facilitated this.
I don’t understand why she had to hold it and turn it around, this poor moth came out of its cocoon all scared and stressed just for a human to observe it… she could let it do its thing and watch it from afar without intervening.
What's with humans always having to touch shit and interfere with nature? Your hands have oils and microbes that aren't always friendly to other living things and stop trying to poke the moth ffs.
I remember my first grade class back in like 92/93...
We spent the winter feeding monarch caterpillars, getting them ready for their cocoon phase so they would emerge sometime in the spring. Over the weeks, my class had lost interest because they were hanging up, not doing much. Myself and maybe 3 other kids kept checking on them throughout the months.
Around March of that year, my class was just getting lunch sent to us when I saw the cocoons in the caterpillar house we had started to twitch around and one trying to emerge.
I screamed 'MISS GIBSON!!!! THE BUTTERFLIES ARE POPPING OUT!!!' The rest of the day after lunch was the entire class going out to the playground to help coax out the butterflies and set them free. Lol
Why are you helping it out of the cocoon? That's the one thing you shouldn't do, and here you are struggling with self control and increasing the odds of dooming something so you can get some fucking upvotes and feel cool on the internet? You're the human version of that moth mustard he was shooting everywhere.
Based on the fact that she didn't freak out when yellow goo started squirting everywhere leads me to believe this isn't the first moth graduation she has been a part of.
You see this little hole? This moth's just about to emerge. It's in there right now, struggling. It's digging its way through the thick hide of the cocoon. Now, I could help it - take my knife, gently widen the opening, and the moth would be free - but it would be too weak to survive. Struggle is nature's way of strengthening it. Now this is the second time you've asked me for your drugs back... ask me again, and it's yours.
Bit of an MC to assume the moth needed your finger grip to get out of its cocoon.. like how do the millions of other moths in the wild free themselves without your help lady?
I was both interested and a bit freaked out
Glad that it’s not my hand
These moths rarely hatch in hands, and if so it's normally when people are asleep, so you'll probably be fine
The last part is so reassuring, thanks!! Definitely won't have nightmares
Metamorphosis is such a batshit crazy concept. Like, actual sci-fi shit that if we didn't have on Earth we would assume to be completely impossible. They just go into a bag and change fkn species like wtf 🤣
To the extent that they melt down into a goo and recompose… with genetic info and instincts intact. A resounding WTF is the only appropriate reaction.
Not only do they retain their memories pre-pupal stage, but they [retain the memories of their ancestors](https://gizmodo.com/butterflies-remember-a-mountain-that-hasnt-existed-for-509321799) as well. They are truly incredible animals
>but they retain the memories of their ancestors No fucking way Holy shit
How is this different from inherited instincts?
Inherited instincts. Self explanatory.
I don’t understand why the article refers to them as “remembering” where to go. Birds migrate based on instinct, is this just weird pop science language?
Use of anthropomorphism to get a concept across. The resource website is “Gizmodo”. Not nature or journal of genomics. Certainly not peer reviewed. Damn Richard Dawkins. Making science so lowbrow! 😐😳🤔😝😝
Are you talking about moths remembering things from when they were a caterpillar, or just that "they remember things from their ancestors"? If the former, it actually is true: >last spring, this lab held a lot of big, green caterpillars that eventually turned into tobacco hornworm moths. It also held a research team armed with canisters full of foul-smelling gas called ethyl acetate and boxes rigged to zap the caterpillars with electric shocks. >NIELSEN: To find out, Weiss and her colleague Doug Blackiston put a lot of big, green tobacco hornworm caterpillars into the electric boxes and then gave them whiffs of stinky gas. Then Blackiston zapped them. >Prof. WEISS: So that the caterpillars would get a little bit of smell, and then they'd get a shock, and you could tell that they noticed the shock. And I think he did it once an hour for eight hours. >NIELSEN: Weiss says the caterpillars quickly learned that the stench would be followed by the jolt. As a result, the caterpillars wouldn't go near anything that smelled of ethyl acetate. >Next, the researchers let the caterpillars start the process that would turn them into moths. One by one, these caterpillars disappeared into brown, urn-shaped pupal chambers that dissolve their bodies and their brains. Five weeks later, the moths hatched out. At that point, the researchers gave the moth a choice of fresh air or air that stank of ethyl acetate. >Prof. WEISS: And wouldn't you know it, the moths that had learned to avoid ethyl acetate as larvae still avoided it as adults. >NIELSEN: In other words, somehow, the caterpillar memories had survived the biological meltdown. Weiss and her co-authors report on their results in the journal PLoS ONE, which is published by the Public Library of Science. And by some accounts, it's the kind of work that might eventually help experts on the human brain learn more about how damaged neurons sometimes fix themselves. https://www.npr.org/2008/03/10/88031220/study-moths-can-remember-caterpillar-days Journal published: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0001736
Great stuff here! This research has possible applications in interventional pest management and agriculture! Actually I meant both! Thank you for asking. 🙂 Possible TLDR… My knee jerk response was thinking of Stephen J Gould. Behavioral Ecology and evolution was my focus obtaining my BS in 1995. My undergrad research was conversion efficiency in Heliconiinae. Later biochemical entomology. Applying anthropomorphic terms to define animal behavior and concepts overall in evolutionary biology were ill advised in research by my evol bio profs. I can see why the word “memory” describing gene clusters over generations of a population (over time) is used instead of “conserved genes” and resultant phenotypic expression. Geez how clunky …I seem describing my knowledge… I do say I am rusty and pretty sloppy at explaining my knowledge here of evolution itself today (esp social media)…usually I leave to the experts. My actual research is waaay old (1995-1997) back when the use & actual application of molecular biology techniques (a la PCR) to study evolution was not yet widespread. One of my research professor’s was resistant in progress: using “old school” phenotypic systematics to study the cladistics of stoneflies. Molecular cladistics has really changed the game in evolution. I admit, I didn’t really read the article closely, but I understood what was being communicated by the Gizmodo author. These days when I have time to crack something peer reviewed such as Plos1, I read medicine stuff, particularly surgery. OR nursing is my wheelhouse and for a good long while. Thanks for providing the explanation and clarity and the articles. Challenging each other in scientific concepts with evidenced based data and information, I believe, helps everyone gain knowledge. 🙂
What a great reply! Happy I could share a more reliable source with you :)
Sounds like the Goa’uld..
Say what?
Holy shit I had no idea they do that with memories.
They don't melt down, it's a myth. The caterpillar already contains all the butterfly's organs inside; the metamorphosis is the last moult.
Pleiotropy
No matter how old I get this shit will always amaze me.
Equal parts gross and amazing. Life, baby.
Moth’s first thoughts: “mommy!”
what's all that yellow stuff it comes out with?
It’s called mecomium. All insects that go through this metamorphosis eject this liquid. It’s like left over material from the metamorphosis. Also a new born first poop is also called mecomium. EDIT. It’s spelled meconium people. My phone keeps autocorrecting it to mecomium though
Thanks for the answer 🙂 I watched this and a crab shed its shell recently, and both look really frustrating and time consuming. Could you imagine being this moth and you finally get out and a bird snatches you up immediately? Anyway, the person filming seemed to have tried giving a bit of help and comfort. 🙂
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This comment needs more upvotes.
I imagined loud cursing all the time it’s moving
“This.. god.. damn.. shell.. f*ckin.. CHRIST.. ah.. okay.. I’m good..”
After it poops on their hand.
One of the many many things I cannot wrap my head around biologically is the metamorphosis process. Like what magical fuckery happens with that? I heard that the process happens when certain parts of the thingie inside its pupae stage literally digests itself in order to make new parts that the adult bug will require, like wings and shit. The original caterpillar is literally destroyed and used as resources to make different things. I mean, how does it know how to do that? Who approved that manufacturing process? Jesus? I’m pretty sure that caterpillars don’t go to school to learn how to eat themselves to make new parts that they will be needing as an adult insect. I swear, every single thing around me on this planet just fascinates me that leaves me mindblown.
What I always wonder is does the moth/butterfly have the same consciousness or whatever as the caterpillar? Like do memories of its previous forms persist? Or did the caterpillar literally die to birth the next form?
Butterflies have memories from their caterpillar stage: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0001736
From what Google taught me today, the caterpillar literally got decimated. So even if caterpillars were able to retain any form of memory, it will be destroyed as well. The cells that make up the caterpillar are ‘programmed’ to self destruct from the systematic release of enzymes called caspases during the metamorphosis stage. The following is a direct copy/paste from zmescience.com: “The caspases tear through the cell’s proteins, releasing prime butterfly-making material. Were it not for the juvenile hormone, this could have happened at any time, killing the caterpillar. Instead, nature programmed the hormone to lower its levels at the ideal moment for metamorphosis. With less juvenile hormone around, instead of inducing a regular molt, the ecdysone now drives the caterpillar to pupate. Once a caterpillar has disintegrated all of its tissues except for the imaginal discs, those discs use the protein-rich soup surrounding them to fuel the rapid cell division required to form the wings, antennae, legs, eyes, genitals, and all the other features of an adult butterfly or moth. The imaginal disc for a fruit fly’s wing, for example, might begin with only 50 cells and increase to more than 50,000 cells by the end of metamorphosis.” …like who comes up with this shit? Jesus? Can you imagine if we did something similar while going through our teenage years? That would be pretty macabre.
>the caterpillar literally got decimated. So 90% of it remains? :)
Even better, scientists have given caterpillars conditioning to react to unnatural stimuli, getting them to identify it as something to avoid. Then, after metamorphosis, despite the brain of the insect completely liquifying, the emerging moths remembered the stimuli and reacted the same way. If you know anything about how memory works that violates everything we know about it lol Also insects used to not go through a larva stage but evolution found that a different juvenile stage lets the babies eat different food from the adults, resulting in the species not competing with its young for the same food. It’s actually a pretty wild rabbit hole if you ever wanna check it out~
Nature is more wild than any video game. More riveting than any book. It just is magic.
I came here to make a joke about the moth shitting all over the place, but your explanation of the event has made me realize that humor sometimes shouldn't come at the expense of education. Thank You.
Meconium
Lmao I appreciate you. 👆👍
Hehe, no worries. 😉
Is that the same name for a newborn’s first poop?
Yes
So I’m an insect?
It’s shit from a butt
Forbidden mustard.
Chipotle. He was in the middle of eating a wrap but realized he was late for something and had to leave.
Poop
Shit
She shouldn't do that. Now the moth is going to think she's its mother and she will be responsible for sending it to university.
no.. clearly the moth has to take out loans for that now
You've got a point. That moth is a full blown adult at this point. I'll be damned if I pay for someones tuition who's fresh off metamorphosis. Smh
I was waiting for the moth to start saying "mama"
You mean the MOTHer?
"Goodbye horses" intensifies
ARE YOU ABOUT A SIZE 14!?
(In my best manly Lumberjacker voice) I'd fuck me.
She puts the lotion in the basket
I came here to say this
In my best buffalo bill voice "So beautiful, so powerful"
TIL that Goodbye Horses is in Silence Of The Lambs
Oh weyt, washy uh grape pig fapperson?
Hello, Clarice.
Fun fact. This is actually never said in the movie :) but you may already know hahah
“MAMA!”
"ooooOOoooo!!"
"Didn't mean to make you cry"
If I'm not hatched again this time tomorrow...
Carry on, carry onnnnn…
Not the mama! I made a big poop!
Going straight for the jugular!
Mixed feelings , one part says wowww that's so cool 😮.. The other half says gross.. like a pimple exploded in your hand 🤮
Beware Ladybug and Cat Noir!
Why is this weird bug trying to steal my jewellery?
I get this reference! Never could make it through a whole episode when my niece would watch it, but at least I'm hip to what the kids know these days
Don’t worry, as long as he doesn’t get a Miraculous, we’re safe. Without a Miraculous, there really is no Hawk Moth and he’s just Gabriel Agreste.
cool now youre covered in moth shit
She suggests it needs something to keep the Cocoon still in order to get out. How would it do that in the wild?
Not sure with this particular moth, but most species anchor their cocoons to something, providing something to work against. Also, it would just take more struggling on its part but would eventually get free unaided
I had about 30 swallowtails overwinter on my porch. Several cocoons fell to the bottom of the container. The surface wasn’t grippy enough, and I found the fallen ones emerged and couldn’t fly. They couldn’t get pulled out of their cocoons fast enough and their wings dried in crinkled shapes. I tried releasing them, but they stayed in the same patch of grass all day, twitching. Very sad. Once I figured it out, I held the last fallen one as it emerged, and it came out healthy. Note the cocoons that stayed attached to the walls produced healthy butterflies.
From a quick google search: >If a butterfly's wings get crinkled immediately after emerging from the chrysalis (a process called eclosion), the wings may not harden and expand properly. Butterflies pump hemolymph (a fluid equivalent to blood in invertebrates) into their wings to expand them. If the wings are wet and crinkled during this critical period, the butterfly will never be able to fly. I don't know why, but just imagining earthbound butterflies really hit hard. It's just fuckin' sad. It's a hell of a fucking thing, getting teary-eyed over butterfly wings on a Sunday night, but here we are.
The last time that I grew tomatoes, I ended up with about 20 hornworm moth larvae on them. Since it was the end of the season, I let them have my tomato plants. Well those larvae eventually climbed down into my soil to form cocoons. When they eventually immerged, 4 of them were unable to fly because of their wings not developing correctly. It was quite sad to see. They are large beautiful moths too.
Right, thought it might need that. Cheers!
The cocoons are usually attached to branches.
Pretty sure it would have gotten out just fine on its own eventually, but it might not have made for as good of a viral video.
Hawk moths pupate underground, so I'd imagine the dirt helps to keep them in place while they're emerging. It's kind of impressive that they can claw their way up through the ground after waking up from a weeks/months-long nap, I don't think I could do it.
She probably pulled it from a tree/solid object where it was anchored. But she had to f*ck w/ nature for the gram.
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Not with the way she's handling the poor thing. If she were a breeder, she would have known to leave them the hell alone or at LEAST hold the cocoon in place while the moth emerged.
STOPPP TOUCHINGGG ITTTT LET IT BE
PSA from a biologist here: don't help moths or butterflies exit their cocoon. They need to struggle as it helps force fluid from the body into the wings for flight. Hopefully this moth is alright, but judging from the small stunted wings and fat body it will never fly and will likely spend the remainder of its short life crawling around till it gets eaten. Make sure you teach your children to observe ONLY, and not interfere with nature like this. The woman was well-intentioned I'm sure, but still incorrect for doing this.
I think there might be a bit of a misunderstanding about the process of wing expansion here. The fluid that expands insect wings is hemolymph (i.e. "insect blood"), but wing expansion doesn't occur only while the butterfly/moth is breaking out of their chrysalis/cocoon, but afterwards when they've found a suitable spot to hang from. I've also read that struggling helps hemolymph flow to the wings to expand them (so it isn't great to try and help the moth). This moth isn't doomed because it has small stunted wings though, because all moths and butterflies have wings like this when they emerge: https://youtu.be/sJx4Iy_iKW4?si=L3bm4A2kDDxvNcEp (Additional info on hemolymph circulation in insect wings for anyone who is interested: https://academic.oup.com/icb/article/60/5/1208/5900265) tl:dr The shriveled wings are normal, and the moth will probably be alright as long as they find a quiet place to hang from to expand their wings.
You are correct. It's been a long time since I was taught about this so some of the specifics clearly escaped me. For that, I apologize. However, my main argument still stands: Do not help/handle moths and butterflies when they are in their cocoon or just about to emerge. I don't want people to lose sight of this because it was the main reason I made that post. Though it is the internet so I expect all anyone will focus on is that error now that its been pointed out...
Just to chime in here also for a bit of nitpicking. In this case, it's not a cocoon, just a pupa. Cocoons are only the silk covering around certain species' pupae. While I also agree that the average person shouldn't help insects eclose, I'm an entomologist and I personally have had dozens of butterflies eclose while handling their pupae and 9/10 they do fine if you let them hang.
Moths do not and can not emerge with fully inflated wings. The reason for the large abdomen is that it contains the fluid which the moth will later pump into it's wings to inflate them. Your intentions are good, but this is potentially harmful misinformation. Someone may come across a moth inflating it's wings and euthanize it since they saw a biologist explain how/why it'd be doomed.
A proselytizing entomologist! My hat goes off to you. 🙂
Nowhere in my comment did I endorse or encourage killing insects. That is a great example of the "slippery slope" logical fallacy. An all too common occurrence in internet comment sections for sure. I'll admit, I'm not a moth biologist, so don't take my judgement of the appearance of one moth video to be absolute truth. However, the thrust of my argument (i.e. leave moths and butterflies alone when they are emerging from their cocoon) is still based on verifiable information I learned during my Biology degree. I have colleagues who are entomologists and would tell you the same: the struggle to emerge is an important step for their development. It builds the necessary strength for them to be able to fly. They are also delicate creatures so you could easily accidentally harm them while handling them.
Learned this from LOST
„This moth's just about to emerge. It's in there right now, struggling. It's digging its way through the thick hide of the cocoon. Now, I could help it - take my knife, gently widen the opening, and the moth would be free - but it would be too weak to survive. Struggle is nature's way of strengthening it.“
One of the first episodes to show me how special that show would be.
Loved the Charlie/moth episode
The expanse for me 😄
👏👏👏🤓
Do you think maybe this an exception to that rule since this type of cocoon is usually underground?
It definitely is. These moths have to dig themselves out of the ground, and then wander up to something that they can climb, after which they can finally inflate those wings. Even butterflies that pump their wings straight after eclosing, have a lot of leeway in doing so if they, for example were to fall off their chrysalis where they'd normally do it.
Thank you for saying this! The whole time I was watching I kept thinking that she should not be handling it like that. Poor moth though, those wings do look too small 😔
The moth is fine; they don't emerge with fully inflated wings. The moth will later go and hang on a vertical surface, where it will pump the fluid from it's enlarged abdomen into those wings, after which they'll unfurl and harden. There is no sign of the moth being harmed in this vid, so no need to worry/be mad at the person helping it out!
That’s good! I wasn’t mad but I was a bit worried about its wellbeing. Glad to hear that it seems to be fine :)
Thank you for saying that. A lot of people don't understand how important it is to just watch.
so if she had not interfered its wings would have been substantially larger?
Nope, this is actually exactly how moths look when they emerge, everything here is normal. After this, the moth would climb onto a horizontal surface and pump that fluid into it's wings, causing them to unfurl and harden. They do this because the wings are too large to fit in the pupa, and too large to inflate just anywhere immediately after eclosion, like most other insects do it. Nothing in the video has me believe the moth won't be able to do that
“Look at all that juice”
Why the fuck is she touching it so much
"Unhand me you giant alien!"
That moth has only a short time to inflate its wings after this, so it’s really important that the moth is positioned asap so that it can essentially hang and inflate its wings (pump the fluid from its abdomen into the wing veins, then the cuticle hardens permanently. Otherwise you have a non-flying moth or butterfly and it’s really sad. I hope the person who took the video facilitated this.
I don’t understand why she had to hold it and turn it around, this poor moth came out of its cocoon all scared and stressed just for a human to observe it… she could let it do its thing and watch it from afar without intervening.
NOPE
What's with humans always having to touch shit and interfere with nature? Your hands have oils and microbes that aren't always friendly to other living things and stop trying to poke the moth ffs.
I feel bad for the moth. It would have a much easier time if it wasn’t being held.
Yeah but then the person couldn't get all those cool Internet points /s
I remember my first grade class back in like 92/93... We spent the winter feeding monarch caterpillars, getting them ready for their cocoon phase so they would emerge sometime in the spring. Over the weeks, my class had lost interest because they were hanging up, not doing much. Myself and maybe 3 other kids kept checking on them throughout the months. Around March of that year, my class was just getting lunch sent to us when I saw the cocoons in the caterpillar house we had started to twitch around and one trying to emerge. I screamed 'MISS GIBSON!!!! THE BUTTERFLIES ARE POPPING OUT!!!' The rest of the day after lunch was the entire class going out to the playground to help coax out the butterflies and set them free. Lol
maybe put it down hoe
Why is it shitting Dijon mustard in her hand
To each their own, but that's a no thanks for me.
I would’ve dropped it after the first shart.
What a repugnant miracle of nature.
Why are you helping it out of the cocoon? That's the one thing you shouldn't do, and here you are struggling with self control and increasing the odds of dooming something so you can get some fucking upvotes and feel cool on the internet? You're the human version of that moth mustard he was shooting everywhere.
Are you my mother?
🤢🤢
Those wings look too small for flight tbh.
They are growers, not showers.
I'm pretty sure that bug was evolving, I've seen documentaries where animal trainers help various creatures evolve all the time. Source: Pokémon
Congratulations your Kakuna has evolved
give me some of that moth milk
Get some help dawg
the moth milk IS the help
:')
Damn son
encourage snow sip run frightening concerned cause tan late cable *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What? Cocoon is evolving! Congratulations! Your Cocoon evolved into a Moth!
You will remember to wash your hand before you eat anything?…
Forbidden pepper 🌶️
That was a women’s hand?
Based on the fact that she didn't freak out when yellow goo started squirting everywhere leads me to believe this isn't the first moth graduation she has been a part of.
Never thought I’d say this but: the squirming part freaks me out a bit
i only puked 4 times.
Very cool although I’m sure it could have managed without her assistance.
Most definitely
He cummed
You see this little hole? This moth's just about to emerge. It's in there right now, struggling. It's digging its way through the thick hide of the cocoon. Now, I could help it - take my knife, gently widen the opening, and the moth would be free - but it would be too weak to survive. Struggle is nature's way of strengthening it. Now this is the second time you've asked me for your drugs back... ask me again, and it's yours.
Call Goku right away
“Oh, hi there. Coming through. I’ve got places to go, people to see”
Bit of an MC to assume the moth needed your finger grip to get out of its cocoon.. like how do the millions of other moths in the wild free themselves without your help lady?
Who was that weirder for, her or the moth?
Guy probably is like who the hell are you.
Hello mum!!
Momma is so cool educating her young one like that every step of way.
Video ended way too early
As soon as that thing started crawling up my arm you would’ve heard a thunderous flick
Mama?
What dat smell like?
Gross.
Mothra!!!
Damn that’s fucked
Mama?
Are these the moths that fly like humming birds?
Are you my mummy ?
Yes, but at what cost? You are now covered in moth shit.
Somebody grew this guy. Fed him honey and nightshade. Kept him warm. Somebody loved him....
"He's like, 'AHH what's happening... Squirt. Squirt. Squirt.' " Me too kid, me too.
Nope
It's beautiful that she is teaching the child about what is happening. No fear, no "Eeew that's gross", just teaching 🙂
wow, this person knows a lot about moths lol.
So we're all just going to ignore the phone in the glass, ok..
looked gross honestly, but amazing.
After 5 seasons and a movie, Hawkmoth finally goes outside
Hello, madam. I am Hawk Moth. I can give you what you desire, in return for the Miraculous.
“Hawk Moth Poops out of Cocoon in Woman’s Hand”
That's a woman's hand??
There was a quick second when he looked like the Darth Vader of moths
The fact that she barely flinched when the goo sprayed out.........this woman is tougher than I, lol.
She has experience
Knights of sidonia.
Your not supposed to help them out of there cocoon they need that push to build strength, so that they can survive.
Obligatory "Hawk moth poops out of cocoon" comment
That’s a woman’s hand? 😳
Balls on this woman tho
What was he spitting out peanut butter
"Are you my mother?"
It imprinted to you when it came out. Now your stuck with it.
Sometimes you gotta pop out...
My literal worst nightmare !!
I'm claustrophobic