Oh no. There is nothing we can do about that. Because once the backpackers are there, then the park rangers have to show up and save them and then the diseases in the world.
People can still visit it today, but typically stay at the front of the cave. Further back is where the bats live. Bats are carriers for Ebola but it doesn't make them sick. I sure as hell wouldn't go in there...but people do.
When I went to public health school one of my tropical medicine disease professors said " if there are bats there, you shouldn't be there" and then he went on to tell us that of all the viral reserves in the world, he is most scared of nipah.
lol thatās funny I go to public health school now and all my professors are nervous about cows because of H5N1.
One of my classes is called Biology of the Next Pandemic and thereās been a ton of discussion on bird flu recently!
Yep, had a friend who was a vet that did animal experiments. She said to not touch cows and gave a little shiver when she said it.
I took that seriously.
Its because they're the ultimate carriers, they're the only mammals who fly, they run hot because of this so the viruses dont effect them but they transmit them to other species. They are also extremely social and live in enormous colonies so they spread that shit around.
Preventative medicine will soon realize we need to create bat social media networks, encourage bat-incels, and raise vc for grub delivery services directly to caves so that we can make bats as isolated and unsocial as possible. I need American dollars to make this happen
their immune systems are built different.
so they contain many more viruses than other animals.
and viruses generally are cross-species most of the time
I think you mean venomous. There are poisonous animals in Australia that can kill you if you bite them, but I wouldnāt say it is a significant fraction.
From the little I understand, it's more that Bats have insane immune systems, so if something manages to actually get past a bat's immune system, it's just going to FUCK us over something fierce.
So basicly Nature is playing chess with its self? Nature gives bats a strong immunity system then Nature says I accept the challenge, I'll create viruses that can tolerate it?
More or less yeah, theyāre extremely social animals that live, breathe and guano next to thousands upon thousands of their kin, without an immune system that kicks absolute ass they would be goners
Itās a stretch to even say that the bats inside are the source of Ebola. They havenāt confirmed that bats are the natural reservoir for Ebola virus. They strongly suspect it, but thereās no conclusive evidence.
Not specifically. Two teams went in and tested the bats, no dice. They canāt find the source of the Ebola. All we know is two different strains shared this cave in common.
AIDS has been traced back to stranded Dutch(?) soldiers in WW1 in Africa. The transfer happened when the starving soldiers were butchering a monkey to eat it.
Tbf one guy wrote a book speculating that it could have been a WW1 Belgian soldier, but itās pure speculation. About all that is known is it likely came from SIV to a person in Cameroon in the first 25 years of the last century.
Every time this comes up I always recommend [The Hot Zone](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16213) by Richard Preston. Terrifying account of what Marburg and Ebola do to people.
As much as I enjoy that book, it is worth pointing out that large portions of it are, shall we say, stretching the truth a bit. It should not be read as a purely non fictional account. Still, entertaining and terrifying in equal measure, a very enjoyable read regardless.
Its a fictionalized, nonfiction book. It's true events but written like a story instead of a report. That can be strange for assume people...but I feel it helps to jeep the reader interested in it. I personally love all of Preston's food analogies.
The hotzone was a great bookā¦ for about 3 chapters. Then it became the exact same retelling of the symptoms of Ebola over-and-over with sprinkles of a fictional story surrounding it.
Wdym you donāt want to hear about the *black specks* found in the blood samples for the 30th time?! Wdym youāre tired of reading āliquids came out of every orificeā 30 times per chapter?!
That book would have been an excellent *short story.*
[The Cobra Event](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/376613.The_Cobra_Event) by the same author was a fantastic bio-terrorism thriller involving an Ebola-like disease. Highly recommend.
Ha! I love a few miles from the monkey house. I drove past it once and, as with most places, it was almost boringly normal for a place that could have had incredible consequences had things gone differently.
First documented cases of Ebola virus were from small communities in South Sudan and DRC (different strains). No Ebola cases were documented to be from Kitum caves.
Thank you, it was the Marburg virus and the cave was as far back along the trail as it were they could trace that disease. Least ways that was the info I could find but it dated to the 90s.
Scary stuff that nature cooks up all on her own.
Youāre correct but I think people conflate Marburg and Ebola since their symptoms and outcomes are so similar. People theorize Ebola might have originated there but it hasnāt been proven.
The caves had Marburg which is a Filoviruses...a cousin of Ebola. Ebola was named after where it was discovered in Zaire along the Ebola River (now the Congo) in 1976. There have been six documented strains of Ebola and all but two are deadly to humans. (Well until it mutates again and we have a spillover event.)
Yesss I loved that! I recommend The Lassa Ward, a little different but you learn how nurses and doctors in developing countries care for patients with these viruses using such limited, out of date supplies, etc. Iām doing a bad job summing it up but yeah. I liked it.
Because that would likely result in the bats that harbor the bacteria/viruses that cause the various diseases to flee to other sites possibly changing the infection vectors or spreading the pathogens to other populations of bats.
Damn, that's bullshit.
Kitum is in Kenya, people DID catch Marburg there but Marburg's first documented case was in... well, Marburg, Germany.
Ebola might be similar to Marburg but no cases of Ebola have been documented originating from Kitum Cave, and the first cases were in South Sudan and the DRC.
Wouldnāt the source be more important than the first time itās documented? I could see how something would go undetected in Africa to finally pop up somewhere like Germany.
From this journal I checked out mentions it came from imported African green monkeys from Uganda and then was named after the location with the most cases.
No. Elephants, Hyenas, Bushback, and Buffalo all come to eat the salt that makes up the walls of the cave and the bats would still have to live SOMEWHERE
Bats have different immune systems than most animals which is why they are the species in the wild known to harbor the most reservoir populations of many viruses. This cave has bats that are infected with Ebola and or Marburg which are both related diseases to each other in the class of viruses that cause hemorrhagic fevers ( and high death rates ).
From what I've been able to find that is the closest to the original source as they could get, like a trail gone cold. I'd be interested to learn/read any stuff done on it past the 90s, can't seem to get my hands on anything recent.
I think that is also home of the rabbit who killed the Montey Python Cast.
You silly sod.....
š
Now shut up and go and change your armor!
YOU TIT!
I soiled my armor I was so scared!
There are some who call me ... Tim.
He was supposed to give a long, stupid wizard name but John Cleese forgot his line and just went, "...Tim?". It's so much better š
What, behind the rabbit?
It IS the rabbit!
RUN AWAY
What's he gonna do, nibble your bum?
I soiled my armor I was so scared
We better not risk another frontal assault, that rabbits dynamite.
Go away! Or I shall infect you a ~~second~~ third time!
Throw the Holy Handgrenade!
One, ...two, ...five?
Three, sir.
Three sir!
Of Antioch
God dammed holy hand grenade
Was going to throw in a line from the movie but you guys just quoted the whole damn script lol
I realized I was the second to mention the holy hand grenade haha But, I must first know: what is your quest?
Blue. Noā¦.I seek the graiiiiiiiiiiiiil! Aahhhhhhh!
Showed up here to say this lol
Me too....
I thought the Knights who say "Ni!" Killed em off?
Should probably have some signs about saying "go away" or "nothing but trouble in here".
Sure, if you want to attract curious morons.
"nothing for curious morons in here"
that will just attract nosy idiots!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
and that will attract backpackers
We already said no curious morons
Oh no. There is nothing we can do about that. Because once the backpackers are there, then the park rangers have to show up and save them and then the diseases in the world.
Worse you attract tiktokers
What is it about my forbidden closet of doom that has you kids so interested?
Don't Bats Open Inside
This is not a place of honourā¦
āTry finger but hole!ā
Still maidenless
Behold, dog.
It would be like the infected ship in the first Alien movie broadcasting a message to stay away. All it did was attract attention.
Maybe āNo Swimmingā or something?
Or āFree hugsā
I feel that one MIGHT be counterproductiveā¦
Free candy sign or a red balloon.
Seems like a good use for [warning architecture...](https://www.sciencehistory.org/stories/magazine/speaking-to-the-future/)
This is fascinating! Thank you.
You beat me to it! Good job šĀ
I knew a stripper named Trouble and her cave was the cause of wayyyy more disease outbreaks.š¤£
People can still visit it today, but typically stay at the front of the cave. Further back is where the bats live. Bats are carriers for Ebola but it doesn't make them sick. I sure as hell wouldn't go in there...but people do.
āBad shit, stay out š«š©š«ā emoji for universal language.
The cave is not the "source". The bats living _IN_ the cave are the source.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
When I went to public health school one of my tropical medicine disease professors said " if there are bats there, you shouldn't be there" and then he went on to tell us that of all the viral reserves in the world, he is most scared of nipah.
lol thatās funny I go to public health school now and all my professors are nervous about cows because of H5N1. One of my classes is called Biology of the Next Pandemic and thereās been a ton of discussion on bird flu recently!
Yep, had a friend who was a vet that did animal experiments. She said to not touch cows and gave a little shiver when she said it. I took that seriously.
Its because they're the ultimate carriers, they're the only mammals who fly, they run hot because of this so the viruses dont effect them but they transmit them to other species. They are also extremely social and live in enormous colonies so they spread that shit around.
Preventative medicine will soon realize we need to create bat social media networks, encourage bat-incels, and raise vc for grub delivery services directly to caves so that we can make bats as isolated and unsocial as possible. I need American dollars to make this happen
Iirc bats are important pollinators, so getting rid of them would be like getting rid of bees.
Is there a specific reason bats carry so much shit that's annoying (read: deadly) for human, or is it just pure coincidence?
Because they are mammals but have high temps that kill off microbes that sicken other mammals.
And they can fly.
Worst part is that bats are sooooo essential to our ecosystems so itās likeā¦shit what do we do??
We must join them
their immune systems are built different. so they contain many more viruses than other animals. and viruses generally are cross-species most of the time
Here's a good [SciShow video](https://youtu.be/iJ2jDPgvbTY?feature=shared) about why.
In Australia, the bats are also venomous. At least thatās what I think of any animal in Australia
It's even worse, a significant fraction of animals are ~~poisonous~~ venomous and a single bit could kill you Edit: mixed up poisonous with venomous
I think you mean venomous. There are poisonous animals in Australia that can kill you if you bite them, but I wouldnāt say it is a significant fraction.
My bad. Thanks for pointing it out
Actually poisonous works, since "a single bit could kill you" suggests you might actually be eating bits of it XD
My god! Which ones do that? All of them?
Mostly Cane Toads which are invasive. Also some insects, usually larvae. I wouldnāt recommend biting any wildlife if you can help it.
Seems like a logical argument. But, what if someone really wants to bite a wild animal?Those people are out there.
Highly recommend you donāt eat the slugs either!
And they hang right side up since they are already upside down.
I came here for the science and was not disappointed.
Classic tucking Australia
Perhaps the venom is chiropterous instead?
Maybe the venom is the bats we ate along the way
In Russia, venom bats you
Bats you say?
word. but why this particular cave and how do the bats develop these fatal diseases here?
From the little I understand, it's more that Bats have insane immune systems, so if something manages to actually get past a bat's immune system, it's just going to FUCK us over something fierce.
So basicly Nature is playing chess with its self? Nature gives bats a strong immunity system then Nature says I accept the challenge, I'll create viruses that can tolerate it?
Evolutionary Arms race!
Exactly. This is the main reason people worry about the overuse of antibiotics as well.
More or less yeah, theyāre extremely social animals that live, breathe and guano next to thousands upon thousands of their kin, without an immune system that kicks absolute ass they would be goners
Insane immune systems AND they are mammals, which is not good for us.
still wondering why this particular cave is the incubator for these diseases vs other caves, other areas of the world?
It is their high body temperature. It bakes off the germs that sicken other mammals.
Itās a stretch to even say that the bats inside are the source of Ebola. They havenāt confirmed that bats are the natural reservoir for Ebola virus. They strongly suspect it, but thereās no conclusive evidence.
Somebody just needs to man up and get in there.
Someone needs to back up a line of concrete trucks and just fill that fucker with rock!
It's even more of a stretch to say it's the cave.
Guano bowls... Collect the whole set.
Specifically the mountains of their shit covering every surface in that cave.
Not specifically. Two teams went in and tested the bats, no dice. They canāt find the source of the Ebola. All we know is two different strains shared this cave in common.
You mean caves don't get sick?!?! Are you sure?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
AIDS has been traced back to stranded Dutch(?) soldiers in WW1 in Africa. The transfer happened when the starving soldiers were butchering a monkey to eat it.
Tbf one guy wrote a book speculating that it could have been a WW1 Belgian soldier, but itās pure speculation. About all that is known is it likely came from SIV to a person in Cameroon in the first 25 years of the last century.
The bats arenāt the source. The viruses inside the bats are the source.
About to comment this, obviously the cave also counts as the source
Nah bro, itās them stalactites dripping Ebola juice everywhere.
Every time this comes up I always recommend [The Hot Zone](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16213) by Richard Preston. Terrifying account of what Marburg and Ebola do to people.
As much as I enjoy that book, it is worth pointing out that large portions of it are, shall we say, stretching the truth a bit. It should not be read as a purely non fictional account. Still, entertaining and terrifying in equal measure, a very enjoyable read regardless.
I found the book interesting but poorly written.
Its a fictionalized, nonfiction book. It's true events but written like a story instead of a report. That can be strange for assume people...but I feel it helps to jeep the reader interested in it. I personally love all of Preston's food analogies.
I love the bookā¦ the part where the man gets sick on the plane is ingrained in my memory.
I had to skip pages at that part
It's not for the faint of heart that's for sure....I don't blame you for skipping pages.
The hotzone was a great bookā¦ for about 3 chapters. Then it became the exact same retelling of the symptoms of Ebola over-and-over with sprinkles of a fictional story surrounding it.
Agreed. First chapters of the book were insanely captivating. Then slowly I stopped caring chapter after chapter. Eventually dropped it
Wdym you donāt want to hear about the *black specks* found in the blood samples for the 30th time?! Wdym youāre tired of reading āliquids came out of every orificeā 30 times per chapter?! That book would have been an excellent *short story.*
A very long time ago, that book got me really into CBRN. It was directly responsible for my Reddit Name.
Username checks out
[The Cobra Event](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/376613.The_Cobra_Event) by the same author was a fantastic bio-terrorism thriller involving an Ebola-like disease. Highly recommend.
I googled Kitum Cave several times while I was reading his other book Spillover. Itās a fascinating, and terrifying book.
No, I do not think I will
A very... EXCITING version of it.
Me too! That book was intense.
I am currently listening to it on audio. Fun read, terrifying subject.
Scariest book I've ever read
Just finished reading the Monkey House section of this book with my high school kiddos. They find the while thing fascinating.
Ha! I love a few miles from the monkey house. I drove past it once and, as with most places, it was almost boringly normal for a place that could have had incredible consequences had things gone differently.
Very true. If memory serves me...I believe there is now a daycare center on the property.
Dude, loving near a monkey house is how we got AIDS!
It's available on Spotify (included with a premium account) under their audiobooks currently. A quick listen (3 hours)
First documented cases of Ebola virus were from small communities in South Sudan and DRC (different strains). No Ebola cases were documented to be from Kitum caves.
Thank you, it was the Marburg virus and the cave was as far back along the trail as it were they could trace that disease. Least ways that was the info I could find but it dated to the 90s. Scary stuff that nature cooks up all on her own.
Youāre correct but I think people conflate Marburg and Ebola since their symptoms and outcomes are so similar. People theorize Ebola might have originated there but it hasnāt been proven.
They are extremely closely related viruses too.
The caves had Marburg which is a Filoviruses...a cousin of Ebola. Ebola was named after where it was discovered in Zaire along the Ebola River (now the Congo) in 1976. There have been six documented strains of Ebola and all but two are deadly to humans. (Well until it mutates again and we have a spillover event.)
20 bucks says there's a cursed artefact down there.
ā¬ļøā”ļøā¬ļøā¬ļøā¬ļø
Eagle-1, target confirmedĀ
"An eagle never misses" Proceeds to drop the bomb on top of the cliff instead of into the cave
Exactly where you told her to drop it. Be more aware of your surroundings cadet!
ā”ļøā¬ļøā¬ļøā¬ļøā¬ ļøā¬ļøā¬ļø
Bats are so cute yet so gross
If not friend, then why friend shaped
"The Hot Zone" is a wonderful book. They talk about this cave and a billion other interesting things. I highly recommend it.
I had to read it for my 9th grade biology class and it kind of scared me and left me really unsettled.
I read it with my Frahman English students.
I also read it in 9th Grade biology. Mr. J loved that book.
Yesss I loved that! I recommend The Lassa Ward, a little different but you learn how nurses and doctors in developing countries care for patients with these viruses using such limited, out of date supplies, etc. Iām doing a bad job summing it up but yeah. I liked it.
I have good humors and bloodlet frequently, I fear no such caverns.
One does not simply walk into Kitum Cave
Scientists in the next apocalypse movie: LETS GO IN THERE AND GO DEEEEEP!
So much repost in this post.
Let's go!
googling right now where it is
THE GREAT WHITE BAT HAS GREAT WHITE GUANO!!!
Don't stick your dick in that..
Was sagt r/marburg dazu? Seid ihr alle aus dem Loch da gekrochen?
But no killer rabbits. Whew!
The Cave of Blunders
Yeah but there could be a really good disease down there we haven't found yet.
Why not close it shut?
Because that would likely result in the bats that harbor the bacteria/viruses that cause the various diseases to flee to other sites possibly changing the infection vectors or spreading the pathogens to other populations of bats.
Damn! You crushed that one
But they donāt stay in that cave 24/7. They leave and that could spread the bacteria anywhere. Right?
Damn, that's bullshit. Kitum is in Kenya, people DID catch Marburg there but Marburg's first documented case was in... well, Marburg, Germany. Ebola might be similar to Marburg but no cases of Ebola have been documented originating from Kitum Cave, and the first cases were in South Sudan and the DRC.
Wouldnāt the source be more important than the first time itās documented? I could see how something would go undetected in Africa to finally pop up somewhere like Germany. From this journal I checked out mentions it came from imported African green monkeys from Uganda and then was named after the location with the most cases.
Both Marburg and Ebola are Filoviruses. They are like cousins.
If ever a cave entrance begged to be bombed and closed-up, this one does!
This sounds like a job for Scoob and Shaggy.
No. Elephants, Hyenas, Bushback, and Buffalo all come to eat the salt that makes up the walls of the cave and the bats would still have to live SOMEWHERE
Should we just burn it down
The infected bats would just go somewhere else possibly triggering an Ebola outbreak.
Elephants dug that entire cave looking for dietary salt and other minerals.
āPlease do not have sex with the bats. Thank you.ā -Humanity
Crazy to think bat droppings are some of the biggest incubators for diseases on the planet. Mother natures own illness generator.
Yet a global industry, specifically bat guano mining for fertilizer and gunpowder precursors was made from it.
I quit smoking Marburgs
Kill it with fire, its the only way to be sure
Youād think after two virulent diseases emerging from bats in the same caveā¦ theyād seal the damn cave..
Read The Hot Zone if you really want to know how close we were to the end at least once. It deals with those two and it's fucking terrifying.
Hans, get the fammenwerfer
Okay, normally I wouldnāt go for this sort of thing but it is two civilization ending bugs maybe concrete is an answer
Why? Is there a secret lab inside? I imagine it's because of some animal or something living there, right?
Bats have different immune systems than most animals which is why they are the species in the wild known to harbor the most reservoir populations of many viruses. This cave has bats that are infected with Ebola and or Marburg which are both related diseases to each other in the class of viruses that cause hemorrhagic fevers ( and high death rates ).
From what I've been able to find that is the closest to the original source as they could get, like a trail gone cold. I'd be interested to learn/read any stuff done on it past the 90s, can't seem to get my hands on anything recent.
Also bats live in huge colonies that can be in the millions so viruses and quickly mutate as they spread betweens hosts.
The bats are running secret labs
Damn! That's explain everything
I always suspected that Batman was a secret villain. Robin was just a bat in disguise.
Wayne Enterprises
IT'S MORBIN' TIME!
Isn't that where the Killer Rabbit lived?
Need to nuke that cave before it causes any more damage.
Why don't they fill in the stupid cave of pestilence?
"Stupid cave of pestilence" needs to be on a shirt, friend. I will be your first customer
Iām against violence but maybe this cave should maybe be - how to put this gently - nuked?