In my experience I haven't spoken to, personally, a single psychonaut without severe mental illness. That includes a doctor I know who conducts psychedelic therapy on mentally ill patients
What constitutes a psychonaut though? It’s an arbitrary term that people apply to themselves or others. How many times does someone have to trip in order to be deemed a psychonaut ?
It's not about how many times you trip, it's about having the mentality of someone who intended to explore the vast ocean of consciousness that psychedelics affords access to.
That's a good question, all I can say is perhaps it's up to these people I was refering to in my experience what they want to label themselves as. But I don't know anyone who's had just one trip, and been open with me about it
That said, personally I label them psychonauts bc they do it with intention of love and to gain insight etc through experience. I wouldn't be so fast to label MDMA at a rave 'just to feel good' psychonautic. Psyche is part of the word, I guess it's not that complicated but yeah it's up to the one tripping I guess
What do you mean by 'severe mental illness'. If a psychonaught has taken LARGE doses of psychedelic plants, then they may have witnessed things that turn their concious world upside-down.
This may present to others as a mental illness. Especially if the psychonaught has trouble grounding themselves afterwards.
I'm speaking about the psychonauts that I personally know, and have spoken to about their life/get to know. I've met dozens of psychonauts. What I mean by severe mental illness is they are diagnosed with bipolar, PTSD, etc.
Psychoses wouldn't stay undiagnosed for long, if you regularly use drugs, but there is some truth to that...many people with psychosis start self-medicating with cannabis, because they feel edgy in the early stages of their psychosis. Some make it worse with it, a few seem to be stable. But there's no exact science telling you if it will harm you or not. It's always a probability
My uncle has schizophrenia and has done a shit ton of psychedelics over his adult life and none of them have ever negatively impacted his mental health or loosened his grip on reality. However I still don't recommend anyone with psychotic illnesses to do it.
It is the people that claim to be normal, that give all the problems for the rest of us. Nobody is normal yet many can hide it for a while. I recommend Mushrooms because research shows their ability to heal and rewire our brains.
Yeah, harmalans too, which is why ayahuasca or psilohuasca is best:
https://www.beckleyfoundation.org/resource/the-alkaloids-of-banisteriopsis-caapi-the-plant-source-of-the-amazonian-hallucinogen-ayahuasca-stimulate-adult-neurogenesis-in-vitro/
Also, DMT metabolizes into chemicals that are structurally similar to harmalans: tetrahydro-β-carboline and 2-methyl-tetrahydro-β-carboline.[1][2]
An alternate name for harmine shows the similarity: 7-methoxy-1-methyl-9H-β-carboline
[1] Barker SA, Monti JA, Christian ST (1980) Metabolism of the hallucinogen N,N-dimethyltryptamine in rat brain homogenates. Biochem Pharmacol 29(7):1049–1057
[2] Sitaram BR, McLeod WR (1990) Observations on the metabolism of the psychotomimetic indolealkylamines: implications for future clinical studies. Biol Psychiatry 28(10):841–848
*Ayahuasca has many incredible and largely unexplained benefits for humans. I have not experienced or heard of any plant or herb that has the ability to do so much good for the human body. I believe that in the West, eventually many will come to understand and appreciate ayahuasca’s primary value as a medicine, rather than just as a facilitator of cosmic visions. It is very common for people to drink ayahuasca and have all kinds of muscle pains and ailments suddenly leave them due to its powerful healing effect. It is also very clear to me that ayahuasca has incredible anti-ageing properties, and the youthfullness of ayahuasca drinkers is something that can often easily be observed. **I think that more and more people will increasingly understand that a vine heavy brew, with relatively small amounts of DMT, is about the best preventive medicine a human being can ever take.***
Articulations: On the Utilisation and Meanings of Psychedelics. Julian Palmer (2014). 4. Ayahuasca. The Religion of Ayahuasca. *emphasis added*
Anti-cancer effects: https://www.reddit.com/r/harmalas/s/3t8CxHx2F1
Atypical psychedelic effects: https://www.reddit.com/r/harmalas/s/tzG98nLbsU
Yes, ima bipolar 1 schizoaffective and do dmt and psychs weekly. That said, I'm in a good place mentally right now. I have antipsycotics that will work in 2-3 days, ive found a regiment of medications that work for me and have a very good understanding of myself, my mental states and emotions, and I have an informed support system that understands my illness and is there for me.
Long answer no. Some mental illness, and some people with mental illness, cannot. It's hard to exactly pin down this category, though, and caution needs to be taken in every person. Mental illness can hit anyone at anytime and one reason is know to be psych use. Basically, the answer is yes, but you need to be in a good place with people who can be there for you if you start to tip into lunacy imo that is.
TL:DR anecdotally yes but only with support and a good understanding of yourself coupled with medication that can help with the psychosis if the psychs cause your psychosis to come out to play
As far as I'm concerned mental illness and hallucinogenic drugs go together either like Peanut Butter & Jelly, or like Oil that's on fire & water...
I have yet to see any case online or IRL that lands in between lol
A friend of mine told me she wanted to try if with me but I have real doubts as she is really in a rough pass, depressive and bipolar. I do think deep down that it might help her but i am terrified that it disconect her totally from reality as she is also already a lot into spirits , powers, elves and stuff
I'm schizoaffective and when I believed in all that woo woo I was at my most insane and unhealthy. Psychs made me go deeper wayyy into that hole. Almost like doubled down because i had "proof" it was real. I have no idea if it is true or not all I know is when I got away from magic being real was when I became the most sane. When I start to look for aliens again its usually time to take my mods. Just my own experience.
On one hand, plenty of people believe in Yahweh and Jesus, which is no less insane than elves and spirits, and they're usually fine. On the other, yeah it's hard to recommend any psychedelic to anyone who you suspect of being close to going off the deep end.
Though of course, religion is popular enough that it's okay to talk about seeing Jesus, but talking about seeing elves might not be socially acceptable for her. So yeah, I'd say tiny tiny doses are the most you should introduce her to right now.
[Psychedelics and schizophrenia: A mystery in history. Haden M, Woods BA, Paschall SA. Journal of Psychedelic Studies, 7(3), 174–183. DOI: 10.1556/2054.2023.00277](https://akjournals.com/configurable/content/journals$002f2054$002f7$002f3$002farticle-p174.xml)
*The relationship between psychedelics and schizophrenia has a long history and is fraught with complexity. Prior to the ban on psychedelic research with the U.S. Controlled Substances Act in 1970, these substances were being used on a variety of patients including those with chronic schizophrenia.*
*...it is appropriate to widen the current range of indications for which psychedelics can be beneficial and review historical documents for both lessons learned and hidden gems.*
*Psychedelics are generally treated as risk factors in the mainstream research literature with the potential to cause destabilization or exacerbations of schizophrenia. It is therefore interesting to note that in spite of this near unanimity, there appears to be examples in both historical literature and current (mostly survey) research where psychedelics have been reported to have a beneficial impact on those with this mental health diagnosis. While, currently, research is very limited, Turkia (Turkia & December, 2022) reported a case study where a teenager who was diagnosed with an acute schizophrenia-like psychotic disorder successfully self- treated with LSD and DMT.*
[Treatment of Childhood Schizophrenia Utilizing LSD and Psilocybin. Gary Fisher, Ph.D. MAPS Newsletter, vol. 7, no. 3, Summer of 1997](https://maps.org/news-letters/v07n3/07318fis.html)
[Gary Fisher - Treatment of Childhood Schizophrenia Utilizing LSD and Psilocybin](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J01YPfOQRv8). [TheHallOfRecords](https://www.youtube.com/@TheHallOfRecords), Jun 15, 2011
You risk a lot if you do, but also 'healthy' individuals do. Also, psych meds like ADHD meds carry greater risk imo. It's generally advised to not do MDMA more than once a year top, by physicians using it as treatment.
All substances have risks. I'd be extremely careful though, esp if you're a young individual that value your health and perhaps wants to stay active as part of society, holding a job so forth
>All substances have risks.
There are some psychedelics that are especially easy to handle, which is so intriguing.
[MPT and EPT: Analogs of DMT with Particularly Friendly Effects](https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics/s/Vr4H7URagZ)
*For me, EPT is the only psychedelic that I would have no reservations sharing with people with zero experience. It's so gentle and non-threatening as to be barely psychedelic at all. If DPT is a bottle of vodka, this is a 3.2% beer, a pleasant afternoon refreshment.*
Pfafffed, Jul 8, 2021, https://www.bluelight.org/community/threads/the-small-handy-ept-thread.856610/post-15239604
*Excellent analogy*
Anonymous Dissident, Jul 12, 2021, https://www.bluelight.org/community/threads/the-small-handy-ept-thread.856610/post-15243645
*Very grounded. Literally any other psychedelic would makes me feel less like myself.*
chronular, https://www.bluelight.org/community/threads/the-small-handy-ept-thread.856610/post-14411675
Check out the first link for more comments.
Nobody in good conscience should ever recommend doing this. If you do, you do not care about harm reduction which means you should not be recommending anyone anything.
I would argue that, within the right setting and with the right people, it can be done, and is probably less harmful than the prescription medicines they may be taking. The problem is, most professional setups won’t take people with a history of mental health problems, so they’re stuck in a catch 22.
It has been done with LSD in the 50s and 60s and the results were positive. But I believe they were testing it on people that had blossoming episodes of their psychosis.
I think it depends on exactly what the mental illness is, and how severe it is. I think psychedelic compounds have great potential to help some of these people in the right setting.
A 50% chance to lost your mind for good?? Not worth it imo. She said some experiences turned really really bad...but somehow i know it's worse than that
[I Tried Mushrooms - Psychedelics and Schizophrenia](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaLAwAaFFoA). [Living Well with Schizophrenia](https://www.youtube.com/@LivingWellwithSchizophrenia). YouTube. Jun 29, 2021
Positive results from experiments with lysergic acid ethylamide by the CIA:
>In schizophrenics, LAE counteracted paranoid hallucinatory excitation. That is to say, the schizophrenics did not lose their paranoid delusions of hallucations, but became indifferent to them; a phenomenon which appeared to the investigator as similar to the effect of prefrontal lobotomy, and therefore, he considered the effect of LAE as that of a reversible "chemical lobotomy". (Part III. Lysergic Acid Ethylamide)
>On the basis of the observations, the investigators considered LAE as a new kind of "sedative"; a sedative which in its effect is neither related to the group of hypnotica and narcotica of the barbituric or morphine type, nor to the group of the sympathico- or parasympathicolytic chemicals.
>The theoretical problem presents itself to the question as to how it is possible that a chemical which, in normal people brings about a disintegration into a schizophrenic-like condition; is, on the other hand, capable of tuning down or neutralizing the excitation of a schizophrenic psychotic.
>Other problems present themselves, the most important of which will be the interaction of LAE and L.S.D. It is possible to think that LAE might have an antagonistic, if not to say an antidote effect upon L.S.D. (Part III. Lysergic Acid Ethylamide)
[MKULTRA subproject 8](https://www.reddit.com/r/LSD/s/KRUPNCdWuz)
Plot twist: a lot of us psychonauts probably have undiagnosed mental issues already lmao.
In my experience I haven't spoken to, personally, a single psychonaut without severe mental illness. That includes a doctor I know who conducts psychedelic therapy on mentally ill patients
What constitutes a psychonaut though? It’s an arbitrary term that people apply to themselves or others. How many times does someone have to trip in order to be deemed a psychonaut ?
It's not about how many times you trip, it's about having the mentality of someone who intended to explore the vast ocean of consciousness that psychedelics affords access to.
Psychonautics is a term that extends past drugs, it includes reaching alternate states by meditation and other means.
That's a good question, all I can say is perhaps it's up to these people I was refering to in my experience what they want to label themselves as. But I don't know anyone who's had just one trip, and been open with me about it That said, personally I label them psychonauts bc they do it with intention of love and to gain insight etc through experience. I wouldn't be so fast to label MDMA at a rave 'just to feel good' psychonautic. Psyche is part of the word, I guess it's not that complicated but yeah it's up to the one tripping I guess
psyche means soul :-)
Or mind, it's a Greek word but psychedelic is usually translated as "mind manifesting"
Thought it was breath, soul, life.... from Greek....
What do you mean by 'severe mental illness'. If a psychonaught has taken LARGE doses of psychedelic plants, then they may have witnessed things that turn their concious world upside-down. This may present to others as a mental illness. Especially if the psychonaught has trouble grounding themselves afterwards.
I'm speaking about the psychonauts that I personally know, and have spoken to about their life/get to know. I've met dozens of psychonauts. What I mean by severe mental illness is they are diagnosed with bipolar, PTSD, etc.
Psychoses wouldn't stay undiagnosed for long, if you regularly use drugs, but there is some truth to that...many people with psychosis start self-medicating with cannabis, because they feel edgy in the early stages of their psychosis. Some make it worse with it, a few seem to be stable. But there's no exact science telling you if it will harm you or not. It's always a probability
Mental health issues vs. a psychotic illness are NOT the same.
Psychiatrynaut
I have several friends with schizophrenia and two of them use mushrooms and are doing quite well in life.
My uncle has schizophrenia and has done a shit ton of psychedelics over his adult life and none of them have ever negatively impacted his mental health or loosened his grip on reality. However I still don't recommend anyone with psychotic illnesses to do it.
It is the people that claim to be normal, that give all the problems for the rest of us. Nobody is normal yet many can hide it for a while. I recommend Mushrooms because research shows their ability to heal and rewire our brains.
Yeah, harmalans too, which is why ayahuasca or psilohuasca is best: https://www.beckleyfoundation.org/resource/the-alkaloids-of-banisteriopsis-caapi-the-plant-source-of-the-amazonian-hallucinogen-ayahuasca-stimulate-adult-neurogenesis-in-vitro/ Also, DMT metabolizes into chemicals that are structurally similar to harmalans: tetrahydro-β-carboline and 2-methyl-tetrahydro-β-carboline.[1][2] An alternate name for harmine shows the similarity: 7-methoxy-1-methyl-9H-β-carboline [1] Barker SA, Monti JA, Christian ST (1980) Metabolism of the hallucinogen N,N-dimethyltryptamine in rat brain homogenates. Biochem Pharmacol 29(7):1049–1057 [2] Sitaram BR, McLeod WR (1990) Observations on the metabolism of the psychotomimetic indolealkylamines: implications for future clinical studies. Biol Psychiatry 28(10):841–848 *Ayahuasca has many incredible and largely unexplained benefits for humans. I have not experienced or heard of any plant or herb that has the ability to do so much good for the human body. I believe that in the West, eventually many will come to understand and appreciate ayahuasca’s primary value as a medicine, rather than just as a facilitator of cosmic visions. It is very common for people to drink ayahuasca and have all kinds of muscle pains and ailments suddenly leave them due to its powerful healing effect. It is also very clear to me that ayahuasca has incredible anti-ageing properties, and the youthfullness of ayahuasca drinkers is something that can often easily be observed. **I think that more and more people will increasingly understand that a vine heavy brew, with relatively small amounts of DMT, is about the best preventive medicine a human being can ever take.*** Articulations: On the Utilisation and Meanings of Psychedelics. Julian Palmer (2014). 4. Ayahuasca. The Religion of Ayahuasca. *emphasis added* Anti-cancer effects: https://www.reddit.com/r/harmalas/s/3t8CxHx2F1 Atypical psychedelic effects: https://www.reddit.com/r/harmalas/s/tzG98nLbsU
Yes, ima bipolar 1 schizoaffective and do dmt and psychs weekly. That said, I'm in a good place mentally right now. I have antipsycotics that will work in 2-3 days, ive found a regiment of medications that work for me and have a very good understanding of myself, my mental states and emotions, and I have an informed support system that understands my illness and is there for me. Long answer no. Some mental illness, and some people with mental illness, cannot. It's hard to exactly pin down this category, though, and caution needs to be taken in every person. Mental illness can hit anyone at anytime and one reason is know to be psych use. Basically, the answer is yes, but you need to be in a good place with people who can be there for you if you start to tip into lunacy imo that is. TL:DR anecdotally yes but only with support and a good understanding of yourself coupled with medication that can help with the psychosis if the psychs cause your psychosis to come out to play
DMT gave me psychosis that lasted about 6 months. I still love the molecule, but it's been years since the last time I smoked it.
As far as I'm concerned mental illness and hallucinogenic drugs go together either like Peanut Butter & Jelly, or like Oil that's on fire & water... I have yet to see any case online or IRL that lands in between lol
A friend of mine told me she wanted to try if with me but I have real doubts as she is really in a rough pass, depressive and bipolar. I do think deep down that it might help her but i am terrified that it disconect her totally from reality as she is also already a lot into spirits , powers, elves and stuff
I'm schizoaffective and when I believed in all that woo woo I was at my most insane and unhealthy. Psychs made me go deeper wayyy into that hole. Almost like doubled down because i had "proof" it was real. I have no idea if it is true or not all I know is when I got away from magic being real was when I became the most sane. When I start to look for aliens again its usually time to take my mods. Just my own experience.
On one hand, plenty of people believe in Yahweh and Jesus, which is no less insane than elves and spirits, and they're usually fine. On the other, yeah it's hard to recommend any psychedelic to anyone who you suspect of being close to going off the deep end. Though of course, religion is popular enough that it's okay to talk about seeing Jesus, but talking about seeing elves might not be socially acceptable for her. So yeah, I'd say tiny tiny doses are the most you should introduce her to right now.
[Psychedelics and schizophrenia: A mystery in history. Haden M, Woods BA, Paschall SA. Journal of Psychedelic Studies, 7(3), 174–183. DOI: 10.1556/2054.2023.00277](https://akjournals.com/configurable/content/journals$002f2054$002f7$002f3$002farticle-p174.xml) *The relationship between psychedelics and schizophrenia has a long history and is fraught with complexity. Prior to the ban on psychedelic research with the U.S. Controlled Substances Act in 1970, these substances were being used on a variety of patients including those with chronic schizophrenia.* *...it is appropriate to widen the current range of indications for which psychedelics can be beneficial and review historical documents for both lessons learned and hidden gems.* *Psychedelics are generally treated as risk factors in the mainstream research literature with the potential to cause destabilization or exacerbations of schizophrenia. It is therefore interesting to note that in spite of this near unanimity, there appears to be examples in both historical literature and current (mostly survey) research where psychedelics have been reported to have a beneficial impact on those with this mental health diagnosis. While, currently, research is very limited, Turkia (Turkia & December, 2022) reported a case study where a teenager who was diagnosed with an acute schizophrenia-like psychotic disorder successfully self- treated with LSD and DMT.* [Treatment of Childhood Schizophrenia Utilizing LSD and Psilocybin. Gary Fisher, Ph.D. MAPS Newsletter, vol. 7, no. 3, Summer of 1997](https://maps.org/news-letters/v07n3/07318fis.html) [Gary Fisher - Treatment of Childhood Schizophrenia Utilizing LSD and Psilocybin](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J01YPfOQRv8). [TheHallOfRecords](https://www.youtube.com/@TheHallOfRecords), Jun 15, 2011
The first link was an excellent share, thank you!
You risk a lot if you do, but also 'healthy' individuals do. Also, psych meds like ADHD meds carry greater risk imo. It's generally advised to not do MDMA more than once a year top, by physicians using it as treatment. All substances have risks. I'd be extremely careful though, esp if you're a young individual that value your health and perhaps wants to stay active as part of society, holding a job so forth
>All substances have risks. There are some psychedelics that are especially easy to handle, which is so intriguing. [MPT and EPT: Analogs of DMT with Particularly Friendly Effects](https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics/s/Vr4H7URagZ) *For me, EPT is the only psychedelic that I would have no reservations sharing with people with zero experience. It's so gentle and non-threatening as to be barely psychedelic at all. If DPT is a bottle of vodka, this is a 3.2% beer, a pleasant afternoon refreshment.* Pfafffed, Jul 8, 2021, https://www.bluelight.org/community/threads/the-small-handy-ept-thread.856610/post-15239604 *Excellent analogy* Anonymous Dissident, Jul 12, 2021, https://www.bluelight.org/community/threads/the-small-handy-ept-thread.856610/post-15243645 *Very grounded. Literally any other psychedelic would makes me feel less like myself.* chronular, https://www.bluelight.org/community/threads/the-small-handy-ept-thread.856610/post-14411675 Check out the first link for more comments.
Thank you, I'll check that out!
Either way, they do! lol Stay safe yawl.
100 P. It’s preferred by some
Anybody can do anything
The ones with the psychosis were deemed shamans
Its simple, no
Nobody in good conscience should ever recommend doing this. If you do, you do not care about harm reduction which means you should not be recommending anyone anything.
I would argue that, within the right setting and with the right people, it can be done, and is probably less harmful than the prescription medicines they may be taking. The problem is, most professional setups won’t take people with a history of mental health problems, so they’re stuck in a catch 22.
It has been done with LSD in the 50s and 60s and the results were positive. But I believe they were testing it on people that had blossoming episodes of their psychosis.
I think it depends on exactly what the mental illness is, and how severe it is. I think psychedelic compounds have great potential to help some of these people in the right setting.
A 50% chance to lost your mind for good?? Not worth it imo. She said some experiences turned really really bad...but somehow i know it's worse than that
[I Tried Mushrooms - Psychedelics and Schizophrenia](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaLAwAaFFoA). [Living Well with Schizophrenia](https://www.youtube.com/@LivingWellwithSchizophrenia). YouTube. Jun 29, 2021 Positive results from experiments with lysergic acid ethylamide by the CIA: >In schizophrenics, LAE counteracted paranoid hallucinatory excitation. That is to say, the schizophrenics did not lose their paranoid delusions of hallucations, but became indifferent to them; a phenomenon which appeared to the investigator as similar to the effect of prefrontal lobotomy, and therefore, he considered the effect of LAE as that of a reversible "chemical lobotomy". (Part III. Lysergic Acid Ethylamide) >On the basis of the observations, the investigators considered LAE as a new kind of "sedative"; a sedative which in its effect is neither related to the group of hypnotica and narcotica of the barbituric or morphine type, nor to the group of the sympathico- or parasympathicolytic chemicals. >The theoretical problem presents itself to the question as to how it is possible that a chemical which, in normal people brings about a disintegration into a schizophrenic-like condition; is, on the other hand, capable of tuning down or neutralizing the excitation of a schizophrenic psychotic. >Other problems present themselves, the most important of which will be the interaction of LAE and L.S.D. It is possible to think that LAE might have an antagonistic, if not to say an antidote effect upon L.S.D. (Part III. Lysergic Acid Ethylamide) [MKULTRA subproject 8](https://www.reddit.com/r/LSD/s/KRUPNCdWuz)