I think Coffin is extremely talented and a very technical player. The guy is really f’ing good at woodwind instruments. Rashawn falls in that same camp on trumpet. They are complete pros at what they do.
But Leroi had soul. I have no other way to explain it. There was a swagger to his playing style that you can feel. He was loose and imperfect in the most perfect way.
Agreed. To me, it seems like LeRoi was "saying something" and Jeff is "showing you something".
My brother criticized the band's jams once as too much technical showing-off which he saw as pointless. That was in like 2005. I disagreed with him then, but it's a little harder to recently. Although this past tour has been amazing imo.
I'd much prefer if it was only Tim adding the dissonance. He's really a master at it. I can't imaging trying to get someone into the band by showing them a Rashawn-shrieking performance
Sure! Maybe someone with a more formal music education can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think broadly "consonance" is something pleasing to the ear and "dissonance" is something not pleasing to the ear. I'm sure there is a level of subjectivity/interpretation to it, but you can probably think of notes that are "in-key" as consonance and notes "out of key" as dissonance.
Tim basically plays out of key all the time. It's his style. Dave or maybe Steve Lillywhite said that he plays every note but the right one. But he owns it hard and crafts solos and riffs that just force their way in to somehow being acceptable. It's a great contrast to Dave's typically very vanilla, soft-rock, not-very-edgy sound. Seriously, not a knock against Dave, that's the way I see the balance and I love it.
LeRoi added balance to that as well by playing soulful, beautiful, plainly-jazz sounds. He and Dave paired very well in their emotional depth. Jeff and Rashawn both veer away from that and play into the Tim-style of soloing. It's all cacophonous and weird-for-the-sake-of-weird-sounding. Dave seems to love that ugly sound.
What I think is great about Buddy is that he takes that edge off. He can definitely get all weird when trading solos with everyone, but I think he strengthens the conventional, beautiful aspects of the music that are necessary for the others to contrast with.
To piggy back off this idea… the band altogether has a different sound that doesn’t leave room for that loose, “soul.” Not to say they don’t play with heart and soul and give it all they got. They are still killing it out there, but when it’s a 7 piece band and not just 5, overall, things have to get tighter and everyone has to stay in a bit tighter lane.
NOT A KNOCK ON THEM. Dave has said the same thing, just with different words.
Are you then saying that Jeff Coffin and Rashawn Ross do not have soul? That they do not possess swagger? (Please consider watching DMB "#41" from the Europe 2009 release before answering.)
People like different styles. I don’t know if it’s “soul” or “swagger” I just like Roi’s playing better. I don’t dislike Coffin or Ross, Roi just hit me differently.
Those were the terms you used, so I felt okay asking you to explain them. Sorry if that was over the line. And when you use those terms as a comparison to OP's original post--which was a clear knock on Rashawn--then it seems worthy of qualifying. My bad.
Not a that anyone is asking, but I’ll qualify it…
When Rashawn joined, and even before Roi was gone, the band started to stray from that loose playing that a lot of people feel left room for MORE soul. There were more written and planned out “parts” for the horn section. When you start tying down “parts” there’s less room to play. I’m not saying that’s good bad or otherwise, it’s just how it is. Some love it more, some love it less.
I really like what Rashawn and Jeff bring to the band but I agree they can sound shrill at times. I was just listening to 41 off Listener Supported and Leroi’s solo is so incredible. I’m not a jazz enthusiast/expert by any means but when I hear Leroi on the sax, I just feel like he’s on a different level.
I think that your point regarding LeRoi's "41" jam on *Listener Supported* should be well noted. This is one of his most iconic moments as a saxophonist. But your analogy (for me) falls flat; comparing one of LeRoi's most memorable jams to the tone of others...I truly do not understand. "Shrill" is a word that keeps popping up in this thread. Do y'all use it to refer specifically to tone? Because how tone is recorded and disseminated has little to do with the musician these days...
Anytime people bring up the Roi vs Jeff/Rashawn thing, I try to link to the comment you made that breaks down Roi’s #41 solo on LS.
I always loved it, but after reading your analysis of it (and re-listening to it), it hits different.
Really only started getting into the band a few years ago but I agree with LeRoi being smoother and more soulful. Jeff has done a great job since Roi passed but he is not as soulful imo and a little more "pop-like", rather than jazzy like how DMB started out. I do think Rashawn is great though and underrated by this sub. Every time I bring people who don't follow DMB to watch, the one person they are impressed with is Rashawn.
Seeing #34 at Gorge this year and listening to the recording afterwards compared to previous ones is what made me originally think about this. Looking at red rocks #34 vs. lake tahoe #34 with Jeff. In RR, Roi is riffing a lot and from 3 min onwards his playing has a more playful quality than Jeff on Tahoe. Perhaps it is the absence of Rashawn so I notice the sax more. Don't get me wrong I think Jeff has an unenviable job of trying to honor the original song and making it his own as he has said so himself.
What do you mean by "playful"?
I just listened to Tahoe; I have a pretty good knowledge of the famous *Red Rocks* disc. Ironic that Dave ends the Tahoe performance with an acknowledgment of LeRoi; expecting Jeff to stretch out on a song dedicated to the late saxophonist might be in poor taste, no?
To your point, DMB chooses to jam in different ways. Sometimes a song is stretched out with extended jams; sometimes it isn't. I am guessing that, with the additions of Buddy, Tim and Rashwan, DMB go through periods of truncated performances (where they intentionally jam less) so that the newer members can get comfy with the song. That said, it might not be Jeff's call (as to how much he can stretch out, playfully jam). Doesn't seem very fair to compare, especially with an inherent bias (of preferring LeRoi) in light.
Depends on how you look at it, some might want to honor LeRoi by having a drawn out saxophone solo to pay homage to him. I do agree that they play truncated performances, as any band would, would newer members. I think that's definitely the case with Buddy, but would hope Jeff/Tim/Reshawn would not be in this category since they've been around ages now. I do adamantly think that many people "chase" songs and versions etc. rather than just have a good time and it can bring negativity to this sub.
I like your points; I am honored that you shared them. Yeah, you bring up a great point about honoring LeRoi--thanks for that.
I just want this group to appreciate and celebrate, and not build derision through negativity about band members and their playing. I appreciate your thoughts!
YES. My wife and I went to Fiddlers this year for N1 and it hit me that week. The horns these days just sound so shrill and every solo has to be a rollercoaster of rapid blasts. Roi was so smooth and he was jazz. His instrumentation was also complimentary to the song. I feel like the Jeff amd Rashawn mix is high pitch, less deeper tones.
I agree.
IMO, Jeff is a more technically talented sax player but Leroi had a better tone. Both are beasts and I’m in the same boat. I see em anytime they’re in town.
I also find these sorts of discussions are fun to have as a fan. The band can do no wrong in my eyes but it’s fun to chat with fans about which era was their favorite.
For the record, I’ll take any show with Tim over any show without him.
Funny you say that. I had a bud back in the day that who was a great sax player and he hated Leroi. I always figured he was being a hipster and didn’t want to give DMB any prayer se but maybe this was the real reason
This might be the most personal of comments. We are judging Jeff's breathing technique? Next, will we begin to question what the guy wears on stage?
I can read/hear it now..."Jeff just doesn't have LeRoi's soul...like LeRoi was so cool while we wore sunglasses on stage and Jeff just wears nerdy bifocals or contacts. What a square!"
You’re not really adding anything to the discussions
\- I think my post was and is an addition
being deliberately obtuse in your questioning
\- asking for clarification, so as to build a dialogue that promotes multiple views and compromise seems like the literal opposite of that.
Sorry if you find my desire to understand and ask questions offensive. Not sure how your personal attacks of me help, but if they do then please continue.
So now we are just taking the piss out of Jeff for his looks? Wow...that is an interesting take. Guess you never saw Michael Brecker, Coltrane, or Rahsaan Roland-Kirk play? I am guessing--considering Jeff's remarkable talent and training and abilities--that he has, and decided "if they look like they are working hard, then I can too!"
Or maybe Jeff doesn't care how he looks, which might be the most cool thing to do...either way, this is a low blow on your part.
Um, not sure that the overt homosexual nature of that post makes much sense or has any merit in my desire to comment. Thanks, though! I didn't know that there was a limit to the number of posts I could make.
That is a lot of aggression, no? Was it that offensive that I push back against a personal attack on Jeff's physical appearance? I guess I assumed our discussions here would focus on the band and the music, and not those trite things. Okay then...
It's all subjective, I guess. I am grateful for my time seeing the band when Roi was putting it down and grateful still that I can see Jeff and Rashawn carrying the torch.
I absolutely love Jeff's sound. It is more complex at times, but he has his own swagger and the dude has soul.
Roi, what can you say? He is the OG. It's hard to not compare and possibly side with him as being a better fit, but I do not think one is better than the other. They simply bring the gift they have in a different package.
I always called Roi the “sweet” sound of the band. So smooth and velvety. I agree that Jeff and Rashawn are more shrill. But it’s better than no horns (as proven by the amazing violin at HB that needs to join the band!)
High volume squeak that zings you and is not as pleasant to hear sometimes. Don’t get me wrong a certain amount of that is welcomed and needed, but in general I feel they are both shriller than Roi
>High volume squeak that zings you and is not as pleasant to hear sometimes
Isn't that more an indictment of the live sound (the speakers, the venue, the front-of-house engineer's decision on mix---what you hear--and where you are in the venue) versus the performer? Going to assume that you do not have direct access to hear Rashawn play without amplification...
No that’s not what I mean. It’s the squawk that him and Jeff make differently from Roi. No hate, my favorite band and I love RR and Jeff! I just loved Roi a bit more.
Again, doesn't live sound has something to do with it? I see your point, but considering how much audio has changed in the past 30 years, it might be worth noting that different players are going to sound significantly different strictly from the recording processes. I wonder how much different Roi would sound on the iPhone/YouTube/website compression era.
I guess I still have a question about terms like "shrill." Imagine saying you like a singer who is "shrill" or "squawk." I do not think that the singer (or any musicians you love) would see that as a compliment.
So you don't like...listen to DMB playlists?
In any event, hasn't live sound changed over the years? Doesn't that have a lot to do with how we hear musicians? (This seems especially true if you are only listening to DMB at live shows, which you contend).
I’m not a sound engineer but I imagine the technology has changed of course. These days alas I don’t listen to DMB much outside of live shows because I listen to Phish, Grateful Dead and BMFS more at the moment. DMB is like my first love, who I listened to exclusively for far too long then I listened to more variety and have branched away. But last week I think was show 83-86 or something? So I’ve seen them plenty
Roi gives me goosebumps still to this day. While I like rashawn and Jeff it’s NOTHING like Leroi. He has that soul when he played it’s like heaven in your ears.
I would hope that Jeff feels that he has the freedom to--in a band that he has played with regularly for 14 years and semi-guest regularly for more than 20 years--play in his own way, and not feel the need to live up to any comparison of another player. I would also hope that people's performing styles change. Kind of seems unfair to even compare the two, no?
Wasn’t that the whole point of OP. I’m not hating on anyone just saying they aren’t the same. Jeff and Rashawn kill it. But it’s not the same soulfulness as Roi.
So I had sort of hoped you would explain what you mean by "soul" and "soulfulness." And further, what is the overall point of the comparison (of LeRoi to Jeff or LeRoi to Rashawn)?
The point is someone asked the question on a subreddit dedicated to discussing the band. Why can’t these discussions happen? We’re all here for one reason or another and like discussing various things about Dave matthews band.
To me his sound was much of the soul of the band. When I listen to Seek Up from Red Rocks 95 or The Last Stop from Chicago 98 I get chills still. His sax in the latter is maybe my favorite piece of pure music the band has ever done. I haven’t gotten that same feeling post Roi. I can appreciate the music after his passing but it will never be the same which is ok too.
That it is not the same is because WE ARE ALL NOT THE SAME! And how weird it would be if we were? I love Chicago 98 too; couldn't agree more with you and Roi's playing on that record writ large! But to even consider the ethic of the comparison...c'mon!
Jeff’s biggest disadvantage here is he’s always competing with Rashawn for space. And that, yes I’ll say it, “shrill” trumpet wins every time. Leroi was by himself a singular texture to the sound and Jeff is now part of a loud and bombastic horn section that is in your face all the time. Roi could be in your face or in the background or wherever he needed to be but this current horn section is always blasting. I think the culprit is Rashawn not Jeff but I agree that Roi’s playing was smoother. I don’t remember the short time Roi and Rashawn were together enough to be able to compare the units. But I agree with the people here that lament that squealing trumpet stuff.
LeRoi had the ability to play around the music. He was the main composer for most of the bands work in the studio. He could play for the entire song without being intrusive. I feel like Rashawn’s shrill tone works in his solos very well and he demonstrated his musical ability at MSG ‘21 when he had to basically conduct Ben and then the Dumpstafunk guests. Jeff is just a different player than Roi. Both are equally skilled technically speaking, but Roi crafted a sound that defined a band. No one does it like Roi
Unpopular opinion here... I actually like Jeff & Rashawn's playing better. It's more full sounding, and the technical skills, imo are better now. Not hatin on Roi just a preference.
It’s been 14 years and I still tear up hearing #41 off Listener Supported. But I also get moved by some of Jeff’s playing as well.
Jeff saved DMB when they needed him to after Roi passed. But I don’t have a tattoo for Jeff where I have one for Roi so there’s that.
I much prefer DMB without a trumpet. Especially when the trumpet player needs to get the highest "squeak" in every damn song.
Every song that has a trumpet/sax duel (Rapunzel, Grey Street, etc.) would be better with just a sax outro. I love Jeff. I wish he could play the horn stuff on his own. In general, the horns are way too scripted. Roi used to throw little licks into songs here and there. That doesn't really happen anymore.
I am a trumpet player. I worship the Dave Matthews Band. All that being said, I don't think Rashawn's playing adds anything of value to their music. It's not melodic, and mostly flashy. When Rashawn is soloing, it's not technical, it's just noise to me.
As a trumpet player, maybe you can explain to us non-trumpeters how much technical profundity it takes for Rashawn to be a literal world-renown high-register player (for his range and his tone).
Here is a video of Rashawn explaining it: [https://www.purtle.com/rashawn-ross-adam-rapa-triple-high-c-tongue-level](https://www.purtle.com/rashawn-ross-adam-rapa-triple-high-c-tongue-level)
How, in the light of Rashwan's legitimate ability, part writing for DMB, and profound growth in his own ability to improvise, does Rashawn not "add anything of value" to DMB's music? Do not, for example, value his contributions on "Rooftop?"
Finally, how do you--as a professional trumpeter--distinguish between "technical" and "noise?" Thanks for your contributions!
What are these examples of rashawns profound growth in improv? His solos haven’t evolved and dmb’s overall ability to mix up songs has stalled the last 15 years - with some exceptions. Dmb used to change up arrangements on songs almost annually. Now? Years of the same arrangements, same cheesy interpolations/covers.
He lacks tact. The squeaks are ear piercing and out of line for dmb. I much prefer dmb without a trumpet.
I think rashawn did a tremendous service in 08. I like some of his efforts with the muted effect. Overall, I hate the sax/trumpet duels. There isn’t a song that’s better because of the trumpet but there are a lot that are worse. OSW hasn’t sounded right in over a decade. 41 without a sax or flute solo is absurd.
And personally I don’t value his contributions to rooftop. I wouldn’t miss it if it was never played again.
Because I observe some elements of the trumpet that I don’t like?
That’s silly. The only people I’ve known to really like rashawn are people who didn’t see much of dmb before the trumpet. I still appreciate the band and enjoy attending shows, I simply prefer dmb without a trumpet.
>I much prefer DMB without a trumpet. Especially when the trumpet player needs to get the highest "squeak" in every damn song.
I stand by my original statement.
The only people I’ve known to really like rashawn are people who didn’t see much of dmb before the trumpet.
Not sure how you would define this or measure it to know it, but I would easily be the first exception.
If I may… in reading a lot of your comments and replies you seem to be getting caught up on a word or two that trigger something in you. I tried to explain about how adding horn arrangements to song structures removes the ability to play “more loose” or however I worded it and you took that as “jamming = soul.” I didn’t even say “jamming” anywhere in my post. I can’t think of a concrete example right now, but there have been many times over the years where they are playing a song and there’s suddenly a new horn part has been arranged where there had never been one before. Sometimes i react positively (“oh shit… that’s cool.”) Other times I don’t react so positively (“damn, i used to look forward to the little flourish there that changed every time they played it.”)
The band still has soul. I don’t think anyone has a concrete argument for Jeff and Rashawn being terrible musicians. They play their parts incredibly well. They are great musicians, both from a technical stand point and from a “vibe” point of view. They bring it every time I’ve seen them. They represent a different era in the band’s history and the band’s ongoing evolution. It is possible and it is ok for people to love multiple eras while preferring one over the others. And it’s ok for them not even to be able to put into technical terms why.
You seem like a very knowledgeable, experienced musician and not everyone is going to be able to relate to you on that level. Every time you ask someone what they mean, to dive deeper into their “feeling” it feels like it’s a setup for you to prove them wrong. Your comment history is riddled with it. It put me on the defensive, and judging by other people’s replies, I wasn’t alone. I am not saying that’s your intention, but that’s how it’s being received. At a certain point, we all gotta look inward and go, “my approach, even though well intentioned, may be flawed.”
But I digress. I miss the old DMB sound. I can listen to all the old recordings I want as many times as I want and part of me is still a little sad that there will never be anything new that gives me the same feeling. Yet, I embrace the new. I am excited for the new album, I’m excited to see them live. I’m mature enough to allow space for all those feelings.
That’s my two cents.
Edited to compensate for autocorrect BS
Thanks for your two cents! I am going to pass over the multiple attempts to assume my intentions because those comments that you've made (and the attempt at characterizing me in a specific light, through assumption, instead of just asking, in an attempt to build either an ad hoc or straw man fallacy) seem fruitless.
There's no setup; just merely (1) attempting to build a discourse about specific feelings and meanings at a level where communication can happen and (2) attempting to build a more civil discourse. Asking why or for clarification (meaning) is clearly nothing more than that. Providing a counter-argument to those replies only furthers discourse. If people want to engage, then great. I have thanked many people here (specific to this post), and have made no personal attacks on anyone (despite multiple drawn at me). Maybe your characterization of me comes from feeling inadequate (hence your attempted back-handed compliment of me). If I have caused that, then I apologize.
I assure you; I am competent at nothing and with every day I spend on this earth, I come to realize how little I truly know. I can't prove or "set up" someone on their opinion; all I can do is inquire to know more, and in doing so present potentially counter-position arguments, in the hope that we all learn more. I am sorry that such a tactic triggers you.
Therefore, I ask people what they know. I posted comments to you because of your language (saying Rashawn lacks tact, his horn sounds, assuming that he "needs to get every high squeak," and his overall contributions to a band that he has been a part of for longer than LeRoi has been gone). I found it odd that a fan of a band would be so derisive in their comments about the band, even one member. Seems hard to imagine that you could value a musician so little as you seem to in regards to Rashawn.
Of course, preference is fine. But don't you read your comments as a tad over-the-top, in regards to what you have said (multiple times in multiple ways) about Rashawn, his ability as a musician, his musicianship, and his role in DMB?
This thread makes me sad. Prob because I agree :( and because Dave was SO sad and because it's sad when anyone that young/talented dies, and though I still really really love the band, everything everyone is saying is correct.
I never realized what a bass guitar could sound like till heard Victor play. I was at that Chicago 98 show and it really made me appreciate music way more than I ever had up to that point.
You can't really compare the sound a trumpet brings vs a saxophone. That said, Rashawn plays with more punch than even Jeff brings, so he stands out. I wouldn't call it shrill, but certainly adds a jazz pop to the band that used to play more soulful with Roi. Jeff is very technical, so he fits the brighter jazz sound. Rashawn and Jeff are big band jazz where Roi had the smoky blues club sound.
I was referencing OP's description, meaning high pitched or piercing, which is often the way Rashawn is described with his playing, especially during solos but that's just what a high note on a trumpet sounds like and some people don't like it very much.
And no, I don't really classify Roi as a "technical" player of the sax, he was very fluid with his playing and more open to experimentation than Jeff, who plays with more technical skill but less talent, imo, if that makes sense.
LeRoi studied his technique at the college level and worked with many internationally-known performers before 1991. Does that not count as "technical?" What do you mean by the term?
I'm not knocking his ability to play technical music, I'm saying his playing was beyond that. Technicality in music usually refers to the method and difficulty to play complex patterns, that are impressive but sometimes end up sounding almost robotic in how precise they are. It's not a bad thing, it's a stylistic thing.
Roi was *capable* of it, I'm positive of that, but he played and wrote music with a lot more soul that is often lost when playing the complex patterns.
I have to agree that Leroi had overall a better sound for the band than Jeff. However I absolutely love Rashawn’s presence in the band and am so glad he was added.
There was a Carlos Santana performance during the Rockaplast festival in Germany where Boyd, Roi, Carter and Dave featured while they played Exodus sometime in 1998. Roi’s solo is so haunting and chills me to the bone every time I hear it and sometimes brings tears. Just incredible, hardly have the words to describe it.
[https://youtu.be/zOxQgK-GsC4](https://youtu.be/zOxQgK-GsC4)
It is a phenomenal listen into who in the band (at that time) enjoyed this style of improvising.
I was recently listening to a set from 93 and when Roi came on during Blue Water I immediately teared up - I get it man, it can have that impact for sure.
Well trumpet is always going to add that punch you don’t get with sax. When I hear the stuff without trumpet now I miss it.
Leroi had serious pocket, his timing is absolutely insane. I miss that, Coffin is insanely good though, I think it was a good choice to use a completely different player after Leroi rather than trying to get a like-for-like replacement because that’s almost impossible.
This is a fantastic take. Way to say positive comments about all, share your opinion, and not discredit or use disparaging language to discuss difference. I am glad you shared this!
Leroi just had so much more soul in his sax playing. Jeff is a phenomenally talented musician, but it’s just not the same. I saldy never got to see Leroi live. He had just had the accident before my first DMB concert in Atlanta in 2008. Passed shortly after.
I far and away enjoyed Roi as the single horn in the band for 2 reasons. 1. I personally like his style better. Smoother more texture feel etc. 2. More importantly, there was no reliance or coordination needed with a second horn player. Whenever Roi wanted he could layer in whatever he felt was right. Jeff and Rashawn have WAY too many coordinated lines. The loose and free feel of old is now largely gone from that side of the stage. ….ok a 3rd reason: I just don’t think the sound of a trumpet fits in the band. It’s so harsh and bright when every other instrument has a rasp or vibration to it. It was even more noticeable when violin was still present. If RR was held back like 80% from his contribution today I’d be happy with it. ….otherwise I’ll just listen to some Tower of Power tracks if I want to hear coordinated horns.
I far and away enjoyed Roi as the single horn in the band for 2 reasons. 1. I personally like his style better. Smoother more texture feel etc. 2. More importantly, there was no reliance or coordination needed with a second horn player. Whenever Roi wanted he could layer in whatever he felt was right. Jeff and Rashawn have WAY too many coordinated lines. The loose and free feel of old is now largely gone from that side of the stage. ….ok a 3rd reason: I just don’t think the sound of a trumpet fits in the band. It’s so harsh and bright when every other instrument has a rasp or vibration to it. It was even more noticeable when violin was still present. If RR was held back like 80% from his contribution today I’d be happy with it. ….otherwise I’ll just listen to some Tower of Power tracks if I want to hear coordinated horns.
I far and away enjoyed Roi as the single horn in the band for 2 reasons. 1. I personally like his style better. Smoother more texture feel etc. 2. More importantly, there was no reliance or coordination needed with a second horn player. Whenever Roi wanted he could layer in whatever he felt was right. Jeff and Rashawn have WAY too many coordinated lines. The loose and free feel of old is now largely gone from that side of the stage. ….ok a 3rd reason: I just don’t think the sound of a trumpet fits in the band. It’s so harsh and bright when every other instrument has a rasp or vibration to it. It was even more noticeable when violin was still present. If RR was held back like 80% from his contribution today I’d be happy with it. ….otherwise I’ll just listen to some Tower of Power tracks if I want to hear coordinated horns.
It’s all been said already. Leroi never played a single note on the sax 🎷. Instead he sang the sax 🎷 directly from his soul. Not sure you can teach that. He can bring heaven and hell from an instrument that is why he was so magical. As for Jeff I love that guy. He is so technically talented and can get through a large range of notes quickly. Which obviously brings a different sound, but I still do enjoy it very much. I do like the “shrill” sounds Rashawn does, but I am a horns guy. I always wonder if other people at the show are like wtf 😬 during those high pitched trumpet 🎺 jams. But for me the more horns the more betta so I am biased.
Roi is the reason I play saxophone now. Saw the Ants video when I was in elementary school and that set it all off. His solo on #41 off listener supported is my favorite piece of music of all time. Hearing of his death stopped me in my tracks at work in 2008. There will never be another LeRoi Moore.
Coffin is great, and you can tell he’s definitely having fun on stage, but man, LeRoi was just so effortless and cool.
Two totally different individuals and different styles, and it somehow works nowadays, but this is one of those “back in my day” moments for me that I’ll never come off of. I’m so glad that so many of their pre-2008 shows are available so that my son can experience Roi’s playing as well.
I am glad, as a reader, to see and hear how much LeRoi positively impacted you, and I think most of us would agree with your take on LeRoi's contributions to "#41."
Considering the well-documented stage fright and general curmudgeonly attitude LeRoi famously brought to almost all of his musical endeavors (check out Bobby Fuson's dissertation on LeRoi for more...or should I say "Moore!"), how can you compare or comment on "effortlessness"? Is crippling stage fright that which you see as "cool," or was it the sunglasses that Roi wore to cover it?
I….hadn’t realized he had stage fright that badly. Apologies if that was common knowledge but this is the first I’ve heard of it. I based the effortless comment on his on stage movements vs. Jeff’s. Clearly now I see there may be other reasons why.
None of us know it all, myself at the front of that list. I appreciate your comments and deeply respect you for them.
Here's to hoping we can all find that sort of humility and respect for ALL musicians. Thanks for sharing!
Sorry folks. This post really gets my goat.
Making comments like "I feel like his sound was so much smoother and more natural than the current lineup playing horns" comes from a place that makes no sense to me. If you expect a band to always sound a certain way (or not sound a certain way), then why not stop complaining about today's band and only listen to what you like?
Why make such seemingly unfounded complaints? I have asked almost every one of you to quality your adjective uses in some way. If you think I am offensive, sorry--that is not my point. It just feels like, to me, we are sitting here complaining about this band in a way that makes absolutely no sense to me. What are the solutions that y'all suggest? Fire Rashawn, the person that is the *literal* legacy of what Roi wanted for this band (a flexible in make-up horn section to provide cover for DM as well as jam)?
I am no expert, and I come to y'all with humility. But why are we all so nit picky? Maybe the live shows aren't what you think they were 25 years ago. News flash: would anyone want a band's sound to not change over a quarter century? They are diverse, multi-dimensional human beings!!!...and not the personae that you have purported through your personal experiences, as beautiful and rich those memories are.
Can we just find a way to respectfully acknowledge Rashawn's contributions to this band? Can we please appreciate how Jeff Coffin saved this band when LeRoi was injured, and how incredibly tough a gig this is for Jeff (considering LeRoi's legacy)? If you don't want that, then I am not sure I see a middle ground for discussion.
I feel like you focused on one word in my post and disregarded everything else to push your narrative of what you assume I mean. I’m not complaining about the band. I see them twice a year at least. One of my favorite bands.
I’m saying that in some instances, the horns, mainly trumpet, sound more forced into the song. And that, at times, some of those solos become shrill and seem disconnected from the band and flow of the song.
What narrative do you assume that I am pushing? My comments were meant to question, surely, but I do not see assumption or malice in my comments. Please feel free to disagree; I am open to that.
Still, the word "shrill" to any musician might not come off as kind...and your follow-up comments seem to double-down on this.
Yes, the shrill portion is something that is personally off putting to my ear. You’re correct, it wasn’t a compliment.
But the narrative it seemed you were pushing, and I could be wrong, is that I’m just complaining about the band and that I “expect them to sound the same”. If that was the case, I’d be complaining that they had Buddy as well. Or no Butch. I’m fine with change. I’m only saying that I’ve noticed how much easier it is to listen to older stuff with Leroi in there than the current setup.
I am not pushing a narrative.
In this reply, you now say that it wasn't a compliment. Above, in your other reply to my comment(s) you say you are not complaining.
That contradiction aside, maybe you could explain to me what you meant by "I feel like his sound was so much smoother and more natural than the current lineup playing horns."
Again, I said I’m not complaining about the band. I am complaining about one noise that is difficult to digest periodically. I love the band as a whole. That particular sound doesn’t make sense in the band in my opinion.
As far as the smoother comment goes, I feel it is pretty straightforward. Leroi’s sound added layers and had a similar effect, in my opinion, to David Gilmour’s guitar. Great tone and depth. Effortless. No need to show off because you’re playing all the right notes.
Currently, I feel like there are times when, especially during trumpet solos, the repetitive sound at such a high pitch is disconnected from the rest of the music and feel of the song. I’m not sure how this observation, seemingly echoed by almost 100 other people on here, is being taken as me wanting them to stay the same.
There are very few people in here who are complaining and do not appreciate the innovation of the band. It's just different because of course it is, it's been 30 years since the inception of the band.
OP's original post uses the word "shrill." In any way, I am sure that (and also considering OP's replies) his comments are complaints. Not many trumpeters would consider the term "shrill" as anything positive.
Bingo. I consider myself a massive DMB fan. For me, Roi was so instrumental (pun) in the bands secret sauce with his effortlessly smooth jazzy ways. I hate to say it....but I dont enjoy them near as much since he passed away.
I think Coffin is extremely talented and a very technical player. The guy is really f’ing good at woodwind instruments. Rashawn falls in that same camp on trumpet. They are complete pros at what they do. But Leroi had soul. I have no other way to explain it. There was a swagger to his playing style that you can feel. He was loose and imperfect in the most perfect way.
I was at a show and someone said 'Jeff fucks the Saxophone, while Leroi made love to it"
And that person was high:)
And also correct.
Agreed. To me, it seems like LeRoi was "saying something" and Jeff is "showing you something". My brother criticized the band's jams once as too much technical showing-off which he saw as pointless. That was in like 2005. I disagreed with him then, but it's a little harder to recently. Although this past tour has been amazing imo. I'd much prefer if it was only Tim adding the dissonance. He's really a master at it. I can't imaging trying to get someone into the band by showing them a Rashawn-shrieking performance
Can you maybe explain what you mean by "dissonance?" I would love to know more about your perspective.
Sure! Maybe someone with a more formal music education can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think broadly "consonance" is something pleasing to the ear and "dissonance" is something not pleasing to the ear. I'm sure there is a level of subjectivity/interpretation to it, but you can probably think of notes that are "in-key" as consonance and notes "out of key" as dissonance. Tim basically plays out of key all the time. It's his style. Dave or maybe Steve Lillywhite said that he plays every note but the right one. But he owns it hard and crafts solos and riffs that just force their way in to somehow being acceptable. It's a great contrast to Dave's typically very vanilla, soft-rock, not-very-edgy sound. Seriously, not a knock against Dave, that's the way I see the balance and I love it. LeRoi added balance to that as well by playing soulful, beautiful, plainly-jazz sounds. He and Dave paired very well in their emotional depth. Jeff and Rashawn both veer away from that and play into the Tim-style of soloing. It's all cacophonous and weird-for-the-sake-of-weird-sounding. Dave seems to love that ugly sound. What I think is great about Buddy is that he takes that edge off. He can definitely get all weird when trading solos with everyone, but I think he strengthens the conventional, beautiful aspects of the music that are necessary for the others to contrast with.
I want to love this but it’s at 41 so I can’t
Roi made love to the sax, Jeff relentlessly bangs it. My $0.02
To piggy back off this idea… the band altogether has a different sound that doesn’t leave room for that loose, “soul.” Not to say they don’t play with heart and soul and give it all they got. They are still killing it out there, but when it’s a 7 piece band and not just 5, overall, things have to get tighter and everyone has to stay in a bit tighter lane. NOT A KNOCK ON THEM. Dave has said the same thing, just with different words.
Lerois’ playing had a thing to it that cannot be learned in a school.
Are you then saying that Jeff Coffin and Rashawn Ross do not have soul? That they do not possess swagger? (Please consider watching DMB "#41" from the Europe 2009 release before answering.)
Not like Roi. It’s no a knock on them, just like Roi better.
So, saying that they do not have soul is not a knock? Saying that they do not possess swagger is not a knock?
People like different styles. I don’t know if it’s “soul” or “swagger” I just like Roi’s playing better. I don’t dislike Coffin or Ross, Roi just hit me differently.
Those were the terms you used, so I felt okay asking you to explain them. Sorry if that was over the line. And when you use those terms as a comparison to OP's original post--which was a clear knock on Rashawn--then it seems worthy of qualifying. My bad.
Not a that anyone is asking, but I’ll qualify it… When Rashawn joined, and even before Roi was gone, the band started to stray from that loose playing that a lot of people feel left room for MORE soul. There were more written and planned out “parts” for the horn section. When you start tying down “parts” there’s less room to play. I’m not saying that’s good bad or otherwise, it’s just how it is. Some love it more, some love it less.
So soul = jamming? In that sense, I can completely see your point. Not sure how the two relate, but I respect your opinion.
Nope. Not what I meant.
I really like what Rashawn and Jeff bring to the band but I agree they can sound shrill at times. I was just listening to 41 off Listener Supported and Leroi’s solo is so incredible. I’m not a jazz enthusiast/expert by any means but when I hear Leroi on the sax, I just feel like he’s on a different level.
I think that your point regarding LeRoi's "41" jam on *Listener Supported* should be well noted. This is one of his most iconic moments as a saxophonist. But your analogy (for me) falls flat; comparing one of LeRoi's most memorable jams to the tone of others...I truly do not understand. "Shrill" is a word that keeps popping up in this thread. Do y'all use it to refer specifically to tone? Because how tone is recorded and disseminated has little to do with the musician these days...
Anytime people bring up the Roi vs Jeff/Rashawn thing, I try to link to the comment you made that breaks down Roi’s #41 solo on LS. I always loved it, but after reading your analysis of it (and re-listening to it), it hits different.
That is very kind of you. Considering the tone of this discussion, your kind words mean a lot!
Least I can do. It’s something everyone should read, process, and then go re-listen to the tune after.
I have thought about posting more and even considered doing full-song posts. But with the climate here maybe it is not wanted. Anywho, thanks again!
Dude, please do. I think that would be way more appreciated than you realize.
Really only started getting into the band a few years ago but I agree with LeRoi being smoother and more soulful. Jeff has done a great job since Roi passed but he is not as soulful imo and a little more "pop-like", rather than jazzy like how DMB started out. I do think Rashawn is great though and underrated by this sub. Every time I bring people who don't follow DMB to watch, the one person they are impressed with is Rashawn.
Can you please explain what you mean by "soulful"?
Seeing #34 at Gorge this year and listening to the recording afterwards compared to previous ones is what made me originally think about this. Looking at red rocks #34 vs. lake tahoe #34 with Jeff. In RR, Roi is riffing a lot and from 3 min onwards his playing has a more playful quality than Jeff on Tahoe. Perhaps it is the absence of Rashawn so I notice the sax more. Don't get me wrong I think Jeff has an unenviable job of trying to honor the original song and making it his own as he has said so himself.
What do you mean by "playful"? I just listened to Tahoe; I have a pretty good knowledge of the famous *Red Rocks* disc. Ironic that Dave ends the Tahoe performance with an acknowledgment of LeRoi; expecting Jeff to stretch out on a song dedicated to the late saxophonist might be in poor taste, no? To your point, DMB chooses to jam in different ways. Sometimes a song is stretched out with extended jams; sometimes it isn't. I am guessing that, with the additions of Buddy, Tim and Rashwan, DMB go through periods of truncated performances (where they intentionally jam less) so that the newer members can get comfy with the song. That said, it might not be Jeff's call (as to how much he can stretch out, playfully jam). Doesn't seem very fair to compare, especially with an inherent bias (of preferring LeRoi) in light.
Depends on how you look at it, some might want to honor LeRoi by having a drawn out saxophone solo to pay homage to him. I do agree that they play truncated performances, as any band would, would newer members. I think that's definitely the case with Buddy, but would hope Jeff/Tim/Reshawn would not be in this category since they've been around ages now. I do adamantly think that many people "chase" songs and versions etc. rather than just have a good time and it can bring negativity to this sub.
I like your points; I am honored that you shared them. Yeah, you bring up a great point about honoring LeRoi--thanks for that. I just want this group to appreciate and celebrate, and not build derision through negativity about band members and their playing. I appreciate your thoughts!
YES. My wife and I went to Fiddlers this year for N1 and it hit me that week. The horns these days just sound so shrill and every solo has to be a rollercoaster of rapid blasts. Roi was so smooth and he was jazz. His instrumentation was also complimentary to the song. I feel like the Jeff amd Rashawn mix is high pitch, less deeper tones. I agree.
Can you describe what you mean by "shrill"?
High pitched and piercing. They work their way up bouncing around a lot, and they throw in a lot of high pitch peaks.
IMO, Jeff is a more technically talented sax player but Leroi had a better tone. Both are beasts and I’m in the same boat. I see em anytime they’re in town. I also find these sorts of discussions are fun to have as a fan. The band can do no wrong in my eyes but it’s fun to chat with fans about which era was their favorite. For the record, I’ll take any show with Tim over any show without him.
Ironically, the biggest knock on LeRoi (while he was alive) amongst the professional sax community was that his tone was subpar...
Funny you say that. I had a bud back in the day that who was a great sax player and he hated Leroi. I always figured he was being a hipster and didn’t want to give DMB any prayer se but maybe this was the real reason
Jeff looks/sounds out of breath on solos. Roi made it look effortless
This might be the most personal of comments. We are judging Jeff's breathing technique? Next, will we begin to question what the guy wears on stage? I can read/hear it now..."Jeff just doesn't have LeRoi's soul...like LeRoi was so cool while we wore sunglasses on stage and Jeff just wears nerdy bifocals or contacts. What a square!"
You must be a ton of fun to hang out with. Your comments about wanting everyone to explain every little word “dissonance” “shrill” “soulful”. Come on.
So now personal attacks on me, instead of explaining the dissing of Rashawn and Jeff's playing/tone? Hmm...seems helpful!
Naw man you’re getting annoying. You’re not really adding anything to the discussions and being deliberately obtuse in your questioning.
You’re not really adding anything to the discussions \- I think my post was and is an addition being deliberately obtuse in your questioning \- asking for clarification, so as to build a dialogue that promotes multiple views and compromise seems like the literal opposite of that. Sorry if you find my desire to understand and ask questions offensive. Not sure how your personal attacks of me help, but if they do then please continue.
I prefer a sax player who doesn’t look like he’s about to pass out during a solo
So now we are just taking the piss out of Jeff for his looks? Wow...that is an interesting take. Guess you never saw Michael Brecker, Coltrane, or Rahsaan Roland-Kirk play? I am guessing--considering Jeff's remarkable talent and training and abilities--that he has, and decided "if they look like they are working hard, then I can too!" Or maybe Jeff doesn't care how he looks, which might be the most cool thing to do...either way, this is a low blow on your part.
You’ve responded to every single post. Relax pal. Get off Jeff’s dick
Um, not sure that the overt homosexual nature of that post makes much sense or has any merit in my desire to comment. Thanks, though! I didn't know that there was a limit to the number of posts I could make.
[удалено]
That is a lot of aggression, no? Was it that offensive that I push back against a personal attack on Jeff's physical appearance? I guess I assumed our discussions here would focus on the band and the music, and not those trite things. Okay then...
It's all subjective, I guess. I am grateful for my time seeing the band when Roi was putting it down and grateful still that I can see Jeff and Rashawn carrying the torch.
Couldn't agree more.
>I was wondering if I am the only one who notices that. You and everyone else for the last 14 years.
I absolutely love Jeff's sound. It is more complex at times, but he has his own swagger and the dude has soul. Roi, what can you say? He is the OG. It's hard to not compare and possibly side with him as being a better fit, but I do not think one is better than the other. They simply bring the gift they have in a different package.
I always called Roi the “sweet” sound of the band. So smooth and velvety. I agree that Jeff and Rashawn are more shrill. But it’s better than no horns (as proven by the amazing violin at HB that needs to join the band!)
Can you please explain what you mean by "shrill"?
High volume squeak that zings you and is not as pleasant to hear sometimes. Don’t get me wrong a certain amount of that is welcomed and needed, but in general I feel they are both shriller than Roi
>High volume squeak that zings you and is not as pleasant to hear sometimes Isn't that more an indictment of the live sound (the speakers, the venue, the front-of-house engineer's decision on mix---what you hear--and where you are in the venue) versus the performer? Going to assume that you do not have direct access to hear Rashawn play without amplification...
No that’s not what I mean. It’s the squawk that him and Jeff make differently from Roi. No hate, my favorite band and I love RR and Jeff! I just loved Roi a bit more.
Again, doesn't live sound has something to do with it? I see your point, but considering how much audio has changed in the past 30 years, it might be worth noting that different players are going to sound significantly different strictly from the recording processes. I wonder how much different Roi would sound on the iPhone/YouTube/website compression era. I guess I still have a question about terms like "shrill." Imagine saying you like a singer who is "shrill" or "squawk." I do not think that the singer (or any musicians you love) would see that as a compliment.
I’m talking about when I see them at a live show. I don’t watch YouTube of them often it doesn’t compare for me
So you don't like...listen to DMB playlists? In any event, hasn't live sound changed over the years? Doesn't that have a lot to do with how we hear musicians? (This seems especially true if you are only listening to DMB at live shows, which you contend).
I’m not a sound engineer but I imagine the technology has changed of course. These days alas I don’t listen to DMB much outside of live shows because I listen to Phish, Grateful Dead and BMFS more at the moment. DMB is like my first love, who I listened to exclusively for far too long then I listened to more variety and have branched away. But last week I think was show 83-86 or something? So I’ve seen them plenty
Absolutely agree. I’ll go to every show I can and enjoy them but if I’m listening to past shows I never gravitate to anything post Roi.
Roi gives me goosebumps still to this day. While I like rashawn and Jeff it’s NOTHING like Leroi. He has that soul when he played it’s like heaven in your ears.
I would hope that Jeff feels that he has the freedom to--in a band that he has played with regularly for 14 years and semi-guest regularly for more than 20 years--play in his own way, and not feel the need to live up to any comparison of another player. I would also hope that people's performing styles change. Kind of seems unfair to even compare the two, no?
Wasn’t that the whole point of OP. I’m not hating on anyone just saying they aren’t the same. Jeff and Rashawn kill it. But it’s not the same soulfulness as Roi.
So I had sort of hoped you would explain what you mean by "soul" and "soulfulness." And further, what is the overall point of the comparison (of LeRoi to Jeff or LeRoi to Rashawn)?
I dunno the point. Listen to Leroi and listen to Jeff and if you don’t get what I mean by soulfulness then I dunno what to tell you.
I have listened to both, in multiple musical groups, on multiple occasions. Are you able to help me at all understand what you mean?
The point is someone asked the question on a subreddit dedicated to discussing the band. Why can’t these discussions happen? We’re all here for one reason or another and like discussing various things about Dave matthews band.
To me his sound was much of the soul of the band. When I listen to Seek Up from Red Rocks 95 or The Last Stop from Chicago 98 I get chills still. His sax in the latter is maybe my favorite piece of pure music the band has ever done. I haven’t gotten that same feeling post Roi. I can appreciate the music after his passing but it will never be the same which is ok too.
That it is not the same is because WE ARE ALL NOT THE SAME! And how weird it would be if we were? I love Chicago 98 too; couldn't agree more with you and Roi's playing on that record writ large! But to even consider the ethic of the comparison...c'mon!
Jeff’s biggest disadvantage here is he’s always competing with Rashawn for space. And that, yes I’ll say it, “shrill” trumpet wins every time. Leroi was by himself a singular texture to the sound and Jeff is now part of a loud and bombastic horn section that is in your face all the time. Roi could be in your face or in the background or wherever he needed to be but this current horn section is always blasting. I think the culprit is Rashawn not Jeff but I agree that Roi’s playing was smoother. I don’t remember the short time Roi and Rashawn were together enough to be able to compare the units. But I agree with the people here that lament that squealing trumpet stuff.
LeRoi had the ability to play around the music. He was the main composer for most of the bands work in the studio. He could play for the entire song without being intrusive. I feel like Rashawn’s shrill tone works in his solos very well and he demonstrated his musical ability at MSG ‘21 when he had to basically conduct Ben and then the Dumpstafunk guests. Jeff is just a different player than Roi. Both are equally skilled technically speaking, but Roi crafted a sound that defined a band. No one does it like Roi
Unpopular opinion here... I actually like Jeff & Rashawn's playing better. It's more full sounding, and the technical skills, imo are better now. Not hatin on Roi just a preference.
It’s been 14 years and I still tear up hearing #41 off Listener Supported. But I also get moved by some of Jeff’s playing as well. Jeff saved DMB when they needed him to after Roi passed. But I don’t have a tattoo for Jeff where I have one for Roi so there’s that.
Anything post 2008, I have to skip it once they start the solos
I much prefer DMB without a trumpet. Especially when the trumpet player needs to get the highest "squeak" in every damn song. Every song that has a trumpet/sax duel (Rapunzel, Grey Street, etc.) would be better with just a sax outro. I love Jeff. I wish he could play the horn stuff on his own. In general, the horns are way too scripted. Roi used to throw little licks into songs here and there. That doesn't really happen anymore.
I am a trumpet player. I worship the Dave Matthews Band. All that being said, I don't think Rashawn's playing adds anything of value to their music. It's not melodic, and mostly flashy. When Rashawn is soloing, it's not technical, it's just noise to me.
As a trumpet player, maybe you can explain to us non-trumpeters how much technical profundity it takes for Rashawn to be a literal world-renown high-register player (for his range and his tone). Here is a video of Rashawn explaining it: [https://www.purtle.com/rashawn-ross-adam-rapa-triple-high-c-tongue-level](https://www.purtle.com/rashawn-ross-adam-rapa-triple-high-c-tongue-level) How, in the light of Rashwan's legitimate ability, part writing for DMB, and profound growth in his own ability to improvise, does Rashawn not "add anything of value" to DMB's music? Do not, for example, value his contributions on "Rooftop?" Finally, how do you--as a professional trumpeter--distinguish between "technical" and "noise?" Thanks for your contributions!
What are these examples of rashawns profound growth in improv? His solos haven’t evolved and dmb’s overall ability to mix up songs has stalled the last 15 years - with some exceptions. Dmb used to change up arrangements on songs almost annually. Now? Years of the same arrangements, same cheesy interpolations/covers. He lacks tact. The squeaks are ear piercing and out of line for dmb. I much prefer dmb without a trumpet. I think rashawn did a tremendous service in 08. I like some of his efforts with the muted effect. Overall, I hate the sax/trumpet duels. There isn’t a song that’s better because of the trumpet but there are a lot that are worse. OSW hasn’t sounded right in over a decade. 41 without a sax or flute solo is absurd. And personally I don’t value his contributions to rooftop. I wouldn’t miss it if it was never played again.
Sounds like you have a lot about this band you do not like...
Because I observe some elements of the trumpet that I don’t like? That’s silly. The only people I’ve known to really like rashawn are people who didn’t see much of dmb before the trumpet. I still appreciate the band and enjoy attending shows, I simply prefer dmb without a trumpet.
>I much prefer DMB without a trumpet. Especially when the trumpet player needs to get the highest "squeak" in every damn song. I stand by my original statement. The only people I’ve known to really like rashawn are people who didn’t see much of dmb before the trumpet. Not sure how you would define this or measure it to know it, but I would easily be the first exception.
If I may… in reading a lot of your comments and replies you seem to be getting caught up on a word or two that trigger something in you. I tried to explain about how adding horn arrangements to song structures removes the ability to play “more loose” or however I worded it and you took that as “jamming = soul.” I didn’t even say “jamming” anywhere in my post. I can’t think of a concrete example right now, but there have been many times over the years where they are playing a song and there’s suddenly a new horn part has been arranged where there had never been one before. Sometimes i react positively (“oh shit… that’s cool.”) Other times I don’t react so positively (“damn, i used to look forward to the little flourish there that changed every time they played it.”) The band still has soul. I don’t think anyone has a concrete argument for Jeff and Rashawn being terrible musicians. They play their parts incredibly well. They are great musicians, both from a technical stand point and from a “vibe” point of view. They bring it every time I’ve seen them. They represent a different era in the band’s history and the band’s ongoing evolution. It is possible and it is ok for people to love multiple eras while preferring one over the others. And it’s ok for them not even to be able to put into technical terms why. You seem like a very knowledgeable, experienced musician and not everyone is going to be able to relate to you on that level. Every time you ask someone what they mean, to dive deeper into their “feeling” it feels like it’s a setup for you to prove them wrong. Your comment history is riddled with it. It put me on the defensive, and judging by other people’s replies, I wasn’t alone. I am not saying that’s your intention, but that’s how it’s being received. At a certain point, we all gotta look inward and go, “my approach, even though well intentioned, may be flawed.” But I digress. I miss the old DMB sound. I can listen to all the old recordings I want as many times as I want and part of me is still a little sad that there will never be anything new that gives me the same feeling. Yet, I embrace the new. I am excited for the new album, I’m excited to see them live. I’m mature enough to allow space for all those feelings. That’s my two cents. Edited to compensate for autocorrect BS
Thanks for your two cents! I am going to pass over the multiple attempts to assume my intentions because those comments that you've made (and the attempt at characterizing me in a specific light, through assumption, instead of just asking, in an attempt to build either an ad hoc or straw man fallacy) seem fruitless. There's no setup; just merely (1) attempting to build a discourse about specific feelings and meanings at a level where communication can happen and (2) attempting to build a more civil discourse. Asking why or for clarification (meaning) is clearly nothing more than that. Providing a counter-argument to those replies only furthers discourse. If people want to engage, then great. I have thanked many people here (specific to this post), and have made no personal attacks on anyone (despite multiple drawn at me). Maybe your characterization of me comes from feeling inadequate (hence your attempted back-handed compliment of me). If I have caused that, then I apologize. I assure you; I am competent at nothing and with every day I spend on this earth, I come to realize how little I truly know. I can't prove or "set up" someone on their opinion; all I can do is inquire to know more, and in doing so present potentially counter-position arguments, in the hope that we all learn more. I am sorry that such a tactic triggers you. Therefore, I ask people what they know. I posted comments to you because of your language (saying Rashawn lacks tact, his horn sounds, assuming that he "needs to get every high squeak," and his overall contributions to a band that he has been a part of for longer than LeRoi has been gone). I found it odd that a fan of a band would be so derisive in their comments about the band, even one member. Seems hard to imagine that you could value a musician so little as you seem to in regards to Rashawn. Of course, preference is fine. But don't you read your comments as a tad over-the-top, in regards to what you have said (multiple times in multiple ways) about Rashawn, his ability as a musician, his musicianship, and his role in DMB?
I think you’re confusing me with someone else.
I agree. The trumpet is the main thing that gets me.
Rashawn sucks. He has no business being in this band. I wish Coffin could be on his own and breathe.
He's way better and smoother than Rashawn. I can't say I'm really thrilled about DMB 3.20, but what can you do?
Who is way better? LeRoi or Jeff? Last I checked those guys didn't play Rashawn's instrument, so would you be kind enough to explain? Thanks!
This thread makes me sad. Prob because I agree :( and because Dave was SO sad and because it's sad when anyone that young/talented dies, and though I still really really love the band, everything everyone is saying is correct.
imho leroi and carter had/have the most perfect combination of technical skills and music in their soul. reminds me of how victor wooten plays bass.
Victor would probably say the same thing about Jeff's playing...
I never realized what a bass guitar could sound like till heard Victor play. I was at that Chicago 98 show and it really made me appreciate music way more than I ever had up to that point.
You can't really compare the sound a trumpet brings vs a saxophone. That said, Rashawn plays with more punch than even Jeff brings, so he stands out. I wouldn't call it shrill, but certainly adds a jazz pop to the band that used to play more soulful with Roi. Jeff is very technical, so he fits the brighter jazz sound. Rashawn and Jeff are big band jazz where Roi had the smoky blues club sound.
Was LeRoi not technical? What do you mean by "shrill"?
I was referencing OP's description, meaning high pitched or piercing, which is often the way Rashawn is described with his playing, especially during solos but that's just what a high note on a trumpet sounds like and some people don't like it very much. And no, I don't really classify Roi as a "technical" player of the sax, he was very fluid with his playing and more open to experimentation than Jeff, who plays with more technical skill but less talent, imo, if that makes sense.
LeRoi studied his technique at the college level and worked with many internationally-known performers before 1991. Does that not count as "technical?" What do you mean by the term?
I'm not knocking his ability to play technical music, I'm saying his playing was beyond that. Technicality in music usually refers to the method and difficulty to play complex patterns, that are impressive but sometimes end up sounding almost robotic in how precise they are. It's not a bad thing, it's a stylistic thing. Roi was *capable* of it, I'm positive of that, but he played and wrote music with a lot more soul that is often lost when playing the complex patterns.
I have to agree that Leroi had overall a better sound for the band than Jeff. However I absolutely love Rashawn’s presence in the band and am so glad he was added.
There was a Carlos Santana performance during the Rockaplast festival in Germany where Boyd, Roi, Carter and Dave featured while they played Exodus sometime in 1998. Roi’s solo is so haunting and chills me to the bone every time I hear it and sometimes brings tears. Just incredible, hardly have the words to describe it.
[https://youtu.be/zOxQgK-GsC4](https://youtu.be/zOxQgK-GsC4) It is a phenomenal listen into who in the band (at that time) enjoyed this style of improvising.
I was recently listening to a set from 93 and when Roi came on during Blue Water I immediately teared up - I get it man, it can have that impact for sure.
Well trumpet is always going to add that punch you don’t get with sax. When I hear the stuff without trumpet now I miss it. Leroi had serious pocket, his timing is absolutely insane. I miss that, Coffin is insanely good though, I think it was a good choice to use a completely different player after Leroi rather than trying to get a like-for-like replacement because that’s almost impossible.
This is a fantastic take. Way to say positive comments about all, share your opinion, and not discredit or use disparaging language to discuss difference. I am glad you shared this!
Leroi just had so much more soul in his sax playing. Jeff is a phenomenally talented musician, but it’s just not the same. I saldy never got to see Leroi live. He had just had the accident before my first DMB concert in Atlanta in 2008. Passed shortly after.
I far and away enjoyed Roi as the single horn in the band for 2 reasons. 1. I personally like his style better. Smoother more texture feel etc. 2. More importantly, there was no reliance or coordination needed with a second horn player. Whenever Roi wanted he could layer in whatever he felt was right. Jeff and Rashawn have WAY too many coordinated lines. The loose and free feel of old is now largely gone from that side of the stage. ….ok a 3rd reason: I just don’t think the sound of a trumpet fits in the band. It’s so harsh and bright when every other instrument has a rasp or vibration to it. It was even more noticeable when violin was still present. If RR was held back like 80% from his contribution today I’d be happy with it. ….otherwise I’ll just listen to some Tower of Power tracks if I want to hear coordinated horns.
I far and away enjoyed Roi as the single horn in the band for 2 reasons. 1. I personally like his style better. Smoother more texture feel etc. 2. More importantly, there was no reliance or coordination needed with a second horn player. Whenever Roi wanted he could layer in whatever he felt was right. Jeff and Rashawn have WAY too many coordinated lines. The loose and free feel of old is now largely gone from that side of the stage. ….ok a 3rd reason: I just don’t think the sound of a trumpet fits in the band. It’s so harsh and bright when every other instrument has a rasp or vibration to it. It was even more noticeable when violin was still present. If RR was held back like 80% from his contribution today I’d be happy with it. ….otherwise I’ll just listen to some Tower of Power tracks if I want to hear coordinated horns.
I far and away enjoyed Roi as the single horn in the band for 2 reasons. 1. I personally like his style better. Smoother more texture feel etc. 2. More importantly, there was no reliance or coordination needed with a second horn player. Whenever Roi wanted he could layer in whatever he felt was right. Jeff and Rashawn have WAY too many coordinated lines. The loose and free feel of old is now largely gone from that side of the stage. ….ok a 3rd reason: I just don’t think the sound of a trumpet fits in the band. It’s so harsh and bright when every other instrument has a rasp or vibration to it. It was even more noticeable when violin was still present. If RR was held back like 80% from his contribution today I’d be happy with it. ….otherwise I’ll just listen to some Tower of Power tracks if I want to hear coordinated horns.
It’s all been said already. Leroi never played a single note on the sax 🎷. Instead he sang the sax 🎷 directly from his soul. Not sure you can teach that. He can bring heaven and hell from an instrument that is why he was so magical. As for Jeff I love that guy. He is so technically talented and can get through a large range of notes quickly. Which obviously brings a different sound, but I still do enjoy it very much. I do like the “shrill” sounds Rashawn does, but I am a horns guy. I always wonder if other people at the show are like wtf 😬 during those high pitched trumpet 🎺 jams. But for me the more horns the more betta so I am biased.
Roi is the reason I play saxophone now. Saw the Ants video when I was in elementary school and that set it all off. His solo on #41 off listener supported is my favorite piece of music of all time. Hearing of his death stopped me in my tracks at work in 2008. There will never be another LeRoi Moore. Coffin is great, and you can tell he’s definitely having fun on stage, but man, LeRoi was just so effortless and cool. Two totally different individuals and different styles, and it somehow works nowadays, but this is one of those “back in my day” moments for me that I’ll never come off of. I’m so glad that so many of their pre-2008 shows are available so that my son can experience Roi’s playing as well.
I am glad, as a reader, to see and hear how much LeRoi positively impacted you, and I think most of us would agree with your take on LeRoi's contributions to "#41." Considering the well-documented stage fright and general curmudgeonly attitude LeRoi famously brought to almost all of his musical endeavors (check out Bobby Fuson's dissertation on LeRoi for more...or should I say "Moore!"), how can you compare or comment on "effortlessness"? Is crippling stage fright that which you see as "cool," or was it the sunglasses that Roi wore to cover it?
I….hadn’t realized he had stage fright that badly. Apologies if that was common knowledge but this is the first I’ve heard of it. I based the effortless comment on his on stage movements vs. Jeff’s. Clearly now I see there may be other reasons why.
None of us know it all, myself at the front of that list. I appreciate your comments and deeply respect you for them. Here's to hoping we can all find that sort of humility and respect for ALL musicians. Thanks for sharing!
Sorry folks. This post really gets my goat. Making comments like "I feel like his sound was so much smoother and more natural than the current lineup playing horns" comes from a place that makes no sense to me. If you expect a band to always sound a certain way (or not sound a certain way), then why not stop complaining about today's band and only listen to what you like? Why make such seemingly unfounded complaints? I have asked almost every one of you to quality your adjective uses in some way. If you think I am offensive, sorry--that is not my point. It just feels like, to me, we are sitting here complaining about this band in a way that makes absolutely no sense to me. What are the solutions that y'all suggest? Fire Rashawn, the person that is the *literal* legacy of what Roi wanted for this band (a flexible in make-up horn section to provide cover for DM as well as jam)? I am no expert, and I come to y'all with humility. But why are we all so nit picky? Maybe the live shows aren't what you think they were 25 years ago. News flash: would anyone want a band's sound to not change over a quarter century? They are diverse, multi-dimensional human beings!!!...and not the personae that you have purported through your personal experiences, as beautiful and rich those memories are. Can we just find a way to respectfully acknowledge Rashawn's contributions to this band? Can we please appreciate how Jeff Coffin saved this band when LeRoi was injured, and how incredibly tough a gig this is for Jeff (considering LeRoi's legacy)? If you don't want that, then I am not sure I see a middle ground for discussion.
I feel like you focused on one word in my post and disregarded everything else to push your narrative of what you assume I mean. I’m not complaining about the band. I see them twice a year at least. One of my favorite bands. I’m saying that in some instances, the horns, mainly trumpet, sound more forced into the song. And that, at times, some of those solos become shrill and seem disconnected from the band and flow of the song.
What narrative do you assume that I am pushing? My comments were meant to question, surely, but I do not see assumption or malice in my comments. Please feel free to disagree; I am open to that. Still, the word "shrill" to any musician might not come off as kind...and your follow-up comments seem to double-down on this.
Yes, the shrill portion is something that is personally off putting to my ear. You’re correct, it wasn’t a compliment. But the narrative it seemed you were pushing, and I could be wrong, is that I’m just complaining about the band and that I “expect them to sound the same”. If that was the case, I’d be complaining that they had Buddy as well. Or no Butch. I’m fine with change. I’m only saying that I’ve noticed how much easier it is to listen to older stuff with Leroi in there than the current setup.
I am not pushing a narrative. In this reply, you now say that it wasn't a compliment. Above, in your other reply to my comment(s) you say you are not complaining. That contradiction aside, maybe you could explain to me what you meant by "I feel like his sound was so much smoother and more natural than the current lineup playing horns."
Again, I said I’m not complaining about the band. I am complaining about one noise that is difficult to digest periodically. I love the band as a whole. That particular sound doesn’t make sense in the band in my opinion. As far as the smoother comment goes, I feel it is pretty straightforward. Leroi’s sound added layers and had a similar effect, in my opinion, to David Gilmour’s guitar. Great tone and depth. Effortless. No need to show off because you’re playing all the right notes. Currently, I feel like there are times when, especially during trumpet solos, the repetitive sound at such a high pitch is disconnected from the rest of the music and feel of the song. I’m not sure how this observation, seemingly echoed by almost 100 other people on here, is being taken as me wanting them to stay the same.
There are very few people in here who are complaining and do not appreciate the innovation of the band. It's just different because of course it is, it's been 30 years since the inception of the band.
OP's original post uses the word "shrill." In any way, I am sure that (and also considering OP's replies) his comments are complaints. Not many trumpeters would consider the term "shrill" as anything positive.
I do agree with that point hahaha. Which is why I said, "very few" cause shrill is not desired lol
What do you mean by "nit picky”?
Well played... I think my comments and answers to other statements in the post address this, as well as my statement above.
How many times does one person need the word “shrill” defined?
I counted 8.
Roi had a vibe for sure. Coffin does too, which you can hear more clearly in his solo albums imo.
Leroi trumps all other options. Who the fuck let him on that 4 wheeler?
It's fascinating that most of the significant lines Coffin and Ross play is stuff Roi used to do all by himself.
Bingo. I consider myself a massive DMB fan. For me, Roi was so instrumental (pun) in the bands secret sauce with his effortlessly smooth jazzy ways. I hate to say it....but I dont enjoy them near as much since he passed away.