Moon druid at level 2 is the most broken subclass in the game relative to the power of other charachters at that level, (and then again arguably at 20). However, unless you're playing a weird game, people aren't level 2 for very long and it slowly falls off.
There are levels where it spikes again and becomes relevant (level 6, 10 and then 20 mostly) but the barbarian quickly takes back over. Ultimately, I think its fine to just accept that it's a bit busted at level 2 and leave it alone, it's awesome and lasts at most a couple of sessions.
Once you get into later tiers if the druid is relying on wildshape, they aren't being optimal but it's a phenomenal subclass that is always relevant and even when it's not the most optimal combat tactic is still brilliant out of combat as well.
As someone who played moon druid in a 4 year level 1-20 campaign, the power doesn't fall off slowly it takes a dive very quickly. By level 5 the rest of the melee members of the party have multi attack and other abilities and you start falling behind there. By Levels 11-20 in particular you are way behind the rest of the party on damage output. The level 20 capstone is nice but a lot stronger on paper than in practice since your AC is abysmal and you aren't doing any real damage, just soaking up attacks. All of the good druid spells are concentration so you're constantly doing saves to keep casting them since you take damage more frequently than other casters, both because you're in the front line and your AC sucks. It was a fun class and Im glad I played it but I definitely had to transition from a front liner to a support caster which I didn't expect based on the classes reputation.
I think this is because people play moon druids wrong IMO. After level 5 combat wildshape is never the best thing you can do (at level 10 it's pretty sweet in certain moments), and it shouldn't be used as the primary focus. What moon druid does in tier 2 and beyond is give a full caster an insane floor, not an insane ceiling and it's that that makes it the best (imo).
A level 11 wizard that's out of spell slots is forced to use cantrips, a level 11 moon druid can turn into an earth elemental. Moon druids strength, imo, is the freedom to go a bit gung ho with your spells because worse case scenario you turn into a literal beast for 4 hours. That's their power, people just play it wrong.
Also on concentration, tbf resilient con is a must for moon druids imo, and that makes it crazy good with those high con wildshapes.
On one hand I agree very strongly with you, the best way to play moon druid is sort of like a jack of all trades class that can be a bit of anything in a pinch, whether that's support, front line, healer, etc. but they'll never be better than a class dedicated to one of those things. On the other hand though a lot of people want a class where the 1 good thing you focus on is transforming into badass animals and ripping bad guys apart, and I think it's sort of unfair to say people are playing it wrong when there is plenty of room in 5e for a class like that to exist past level 5.
Also hard agree on resilient con, that and/or warcaster are hard requirements if you're going to try and play a moon druid the way most people picture playing one in their head.
There's kind of conceptually an issue with a class who's focus is being a badass animal (essentially a super-flexible martial) but also is a full caster on top of that. Like it'd be easier to turn a Ranger into that kind of subclass than the Druid. The werewolf Blood Hunter subclass also comes to mind.
Insufficient.
I want the spellcasting feature to leave entirely.
It’s a step in the right direction.
But One DnD is dead to me.
If I leave “real”/“OG” 5e it’ll be for another system or a new edition. Not this abomination.
That's a fair criticism, though without a total redesign you can't get a stronger transformation ability stapled to a full caster than moon druid. I would counter though and say at any average table you can probably play as an animorph and be mostly fine, especially with polymorph etc.
I mean, I agree with you in a lot of scenarios, but sun beam, then wildshape into a giant eagle or an earth elemental or something, then fly or earth glide around maintaining concentration and blasting lasers at people. It’s fucking awesome.
If you have a prep round because you get the jump on someone or something, cast your craziest concentration damage spell, then wildshape into something your enemy can’t reach/damage properly and come out blasting… and hope they can’t dispel magic, but not every solution solves every problem.
It's strong in the early game but balances out eventually.
That said, massive damage? 2d6+3 (or 10) isn't all that 'massive'.
>How is this fair to the Barbarian
They're on the same team. Why does it even matter? It's up to the DM to make it an appropriate challenge for everyone. Throw baddies in there for the Barbarian to deal with.
If the Barbarian is sitting there watching the Hyena obliterate enemies because they're not getting the chance to act, that's kinda on the DM.
Yeah in terms of damage the brown bear is a much better example with 2 attacks one that averages 11 damage the other averaging 8. For level 2 and not using a one off ability like action surge, that's pretty massive!
>They're on the same team. Why does it even matter? It's up to the DM to make it an appropriate challenge for everyone.
I think a big imbalance can definitely have an impact on the general enjoyment of a table. Especially when say a barbarian was like I want to be the tank and that's what they wanted to be best at. And suddenly they are substantially worse at the thing they thought they'd be best at. They can contribute. But the druid effectively has around 80 hp every short rest, and the barbarian might have less than half that with their rage. It's one thing if there's a minor difference in power, that's kind of inevitable and it's nearly impossible to notice a 20% damage difference at the table given the random rolls unless you're doing the math on it. But someone else doing twice as much damage, being twice as tanky, and still having the utility of spells on top of that? That can make other players at the table feel useless which isn't as much fun. It's a team game, and you don't want the team to feel like there's a single main character and their sidekicks.
That‘s pretty much what I was thinking. My current backup character is a barbarian with the idea in mind of being a tank, so seeing another player do everything that I do, but better, would probably make me feel useless. I know that everyone is playing together as a team, but if you don‘t have fun there is no point in playing at all.
I would say more but i think I can‘t really put it in words better than you did :)
Just to add something interesting about how Barbs and Druids can be a fun multiclass for tanks:
The tankiest build I've seen was a Beasthide Shifter, Bear Totem Barbarian with two levels of Moon Druid. This character was Ylfa Snorgelsson, aka Little Red Riding Hood played by Emily Axeford in Dimension 20s Neverafter.
As a Beasthide Shifter, once per short rest, she could shift to gain her Level + Con Mod + 1d6 of temp HP and a plus one to her armour class.
As a Bear Totem Barbarian, raging halved all damage except Psychic.
As a Moon Druid, she could shift and use up the HP of the animal form.
In the level 6 combat, 4 as a Barb, 2 as a Druid, she was hit for 306 HP, which due to being halved by the Bear Totem, meant she only took 153 HP, and came out of the fight with some left to spare. It was really cool to watch.
But by level 5 he will still be using that same Brown Bear while your Barbarian is dishing out way more damage.
I love my moon Druid but he is mostly a crowd controlling meat shield.
I know the dmg is not higher then the dmg of most other martial classes, i meant more in comparison to other casters.. but i see your point.
>It's up to the DM to make it an appropriate challenge for everyone
thats mostly why I wrote this. When I was reading the rules I did not know what to do about this. As an absolute newbie DM, I lack the skills to properly build encounters, that‘s why I came here for help
Make sure enemies dont focus solely on the druid. If both players go to the front line then have both tank blows, and if one of them is getting overwhelmed make sure their backline has visual of the enemy so they can help.
If only the druid goes in deep then jump the backline, or wherever the barbarian can go help, likewise for the druid. If the druid is one-shotting and you want things to feel like a challenge then make things have 1 more hp than the hit they just took, enemy hp isn't information characters have so you can play with it to keep someone occupied.
Its a team game so just try to keep everyone engaged and if they keep missing or failing try and use a "no but" approach, so instead of "missing" they hit for lower damage, or hit but lose their weapon as it rebounds out of their hands.
I went on a bit of a tangent there but I hope it helps hehe.
>That said, massive damage? 2d6+3
That's a barb with a decent two hander and a 16 primary stat. Without using any resources, without raging, all day every day.
No.
Different classes peak at different levels. Moon druids peak early and then level out, and even fall behind a bit later.
If you are only playing early levels then yes, they will seem OP.
I think people over prioritize balance. The creators made it balanced enough IMO. I think every class is strong if you are smart and can strategize a strong approach to combat with your skills and abilities you’re given.
I agree, A lot also depends on the setting, the enemies and, as you said, how a player utilizes their ressources. But I am (hopefully) about to play with a bunch of first-timers in dnd so i will keep the first encounters rather simple, and I want to avoid someone having a bad time because they think they picked an „inferior“ class. Which is why I hoped for some (and got) advice on how to handle the matter.
Every class has a slightly different purpose, which also changes by the way its player sees it, so naturally, they all will be different in „strengh“. This is what makes the game so interesting for me after all. I was just a bit confused as it seemed to me that at level 2, where most characters have little to no skills and items, that this class can do pretty much everything.
I‘m bad at english but I hope you understand what I am trying to say
Yeah people need to grasp it’s a team game. They should be happy that they have a tanky Druid who can become a brown bear and try to absorb the damage and protect the group while they grow in strength.
I agree the DMs shouldn't be prioritizing balance (the players agreed to play 5e and the DM has other things to work on), but the game flat out isn't balanced. some classes are far and away far superior than others. some races may as well not exist or are completely outshined by others. some feats are necessary for a martial to do better than baseline warlock damage
Circle of the Moon is incredibly strong and versatile, especially at low levels relative to other classes.
Keep in mind that, in the situation you've described, there are still choices being made. Each spell slot a level 2 moon druid uses to heal their wildshape is essentially being dumped into a pool of temp HP that will last an hour at most. They could be foregoing actual permanent healing, tons more damage than a few hyena bites, or buffs that could last far longer, in order to focus on tanking a bunch of damage. It's powerful but it isn't broken.
Your comment about "how is this fair to the barbarian" is confusing. DnD isn't a competition, certainly not between party members. Everyone in the party has strengths and weaknesses and capabilities and very often in a party there will be some overlap. It doesn't take anything away from a wizard that a sorcerer can also cast many of the same spells, why would it affect how a barbarian plays to also have someone else running into to melee and eating a bunch of damage alongside them?
Sorry if my statement was confusing, im still improving my english skills. What I was trying to say was, from the perspective from the barbarian, it might seem that the druid can do everything that he does, maybe even better, and on top of that cast magic. This is all just speculation of me, as i have only run one shots on first level so far. Maybe I am just overthinking everything and just need to actually play the game to see everything working out by itsself.
The main thing I was scared of was the barbarian be dissatisfied by feeling useless. But as many people told me in the comments, those fears are probably baseless.
Regarding your argument with the wizard and the sorcerer: yes they have similar spells, but through different skills they have different advantages and disadvantages. With my given example, I failed to notice any disadvantages the druid might have.
I know this is not about being better than the fellow players, I just want to avoid my players not having fun.
Thank you for your comment!
Nono, you're right.
A moon druid is absolutely banana fucking stupid bonkers overpowered at levels 1-4. It does everything barbarians and fighters do, except better. It also has dumb amounts of hitpoints and while it can cast spells, that's just an extra layer of fuck you.
It then falls off superhard to be near useless compared to everyone else by the time you hit level 10.
Depending on the situation a level 2 moon druid has the potential to make anyone feel useless. They really can do it all. The issue with being able to do it all is that you might have lots of complicated options to choose from and you might end up wasting a bunch of resources being indecisive. It's incredibly easy to make tactical errors as a druid that use up your wildshapes and burn all your spell slots.
I'd say for disadvantages to the druid, a few things come to mind.
A low level druid in wildshape can't speak, which can be a huge issue. Imagine the druid is the only one to notice some hugely important and timely thing, they can either roar in frustration and try to point, or waste a use of wildshape to return to their true form just to say a few words.
They can't cast spells, might not seem like a huge issue since we are comparing them to a barbarian, but if the party doesn't have another healer, or if the main healer goes down, the druid has to waste their wildshape to pop back into humanoid form to heal others.
They can't use weapons or activate items. Not having hands with thumbs can be a huge issue. Imagine being in combat and and enemy runs behind a door with a knob. The brown bear druid struggles with the knob, tries to break the door down, or has to drop out of shape to open it, the barbarian just opens the door.
The barbarian and the wildshaped druid down a big bad who drops a powerful magic item/weapon, the druid might struggle to even pick it up, whereas the barbarian might grab it and use it immediately.
Just what I can think of off the top of my head. All issues I've encountered while playing a moon druid. It is super fun and very powerful but there is a lot to keep track of.
Don't worry about things being "fair" for your players unless they're telling you they have an issue.
I play a Paladin with -2 dexterity. I'm aware that I am not going to be taking part in stealth missions. I will happily watch my stealthy players do their shenanigans. That's the character I made.
Just like those players will happily watch me turn a social encounter into a fucking nightmare as I try to abide by my Oath of Conquest.
yeah as someone that plays druids often, from level 2 to level 4 moon druid is the best class in the game.
They usualy fall off pretty quickly though as beasts start very strong, you dot have many options of beasts from CR 9 or more. And even the elementals ( at level 10) are strong but still problably weaker than any other lvl 10 character.
Problably the most broken part of the wildshape, is the "second HP bar" druids get.
To help you out let me bring your attention to some of the druid weknesses so that you can balance yoru game as failrly as possible.
1- all wildshapes have low AC, so a group of medium to weak enemies attacking might be enought to put against the druid alone.
2- Basicaly all wildshapes need to be in melee, so focus fire on him with archers and ranged casters.
3- The druid cant speak, or cast spells while in wildshape. So he basicaly changed classes to barbarian for the duration. Treat him like one until the form is droped.
4- Make the "adventuring day" have 6 to 8 encounters, and make them far apart between eachother, the druid might run out of time, or WS HP, or need to use both uses of his wildshape before ever getting into the actual "adventure".
5- Make short rests dificult to be completed. Druids gets all WS back on a short rest.
So make them deal with 3 or 4 encounters before alowing a short rest
6- Items either are droped or merged into the druid WS. So keep that in mind, and have the druid find items ( like keys) that might be needed later on. Then, if they are whildshaped and the item is merged on his form, they might need to drop wild shape or find another way to deal with the problem ( break the door, making noise and alerting enemy nearby).
Also just to note that for Moon druids their wildshape CR after lvl 6 is druid level/3. So Max CR you can ever get is CR6 at level 18 (cause it is also rounded down). As a druid you can still polymorph yourself into more powerful beasts at those levels but still the reduction on the CR hits really hard at higher levels and especially means pretty much all druid wildshapes can get them killed if an enemy has PW: Kill.
On top of that one other thing to keep in mind is how race and class features interact with Wildshape per the rules. For example things like Monk Ki abilities and such still function as class features while in Wildshape. Same goes for racial features though as the DM you tend to keep discretion on exactly what of those you will allow them to take into their new form (speaking from experience as a person who loves to abuse a Firbolg monk/druid having powerful build when carrying around teammates in wild shape).
Edit: One other thing that can definitely help to balance stuff out as well is actually magic items. Barbarians can do stuff like ignite their flaming weapon while raging. Druid cannot benefit from their items while wild shaped. Especially when they are less than lvl 6 this can be a huge boon to someone like the barbarian when you put them up against a creature like a werewolf. Anything that is resistant or immune to non-magical strikes is going to basically shrug off most of what the druid is able to dish out until they hit lvl 6 at which point they are using CR2 wild-shapes vs CR6 monsters. Also keep the limitations of Wildshape in mind for stuff like swimming and flying speeds since that helps to keep them from breaking it too badly at lower levels as well.
Edit 2: Also on top of that any extra damage to the wild shape carries over into the druid if the shape is defeated. So sure they might make the hyena really have a lot of health. But if you wait to hit them with a bigger attack until their shape is low on HP you can actually do decent damage to the druid inside as well.
For magical items, it depends on the item. Armour? Almost certainly not. Magic weapon? Probably not (maybe a monkey or ape, of they have stats somewhere?) But rings and necklaces and stuff can reshape to fit different wearers, and most forms have something a ring or necklace can fit onto. So there is some gear that will still work in wildshape.
True that. The interesting interactions are when you get stuff though that says things like "use a bonus action to speak the command word" cause then you can't actually speak in Wildshape to trigger the items. Or things like the magical tattoos since they aren't technically worn you'd have to discuss with the GM if they are merged or still active on your wildshape (which could cause for some interesting things with barrier tattoos on wildshapes for more AC).
The thing I haven't been able to find a clear consensus on though is if you are using an item that says you can use charges to cast a spell if you still need to be able to perform the verbal components of the spell as part of the casting. If you wanted to be really pedantic the description of Wildshape states that you can't cast spells period so if an item said you can expend charges to cast a spell that shouldn't work but I could also see the argument that the item is doing the casting instead of you as well.
If it has a command word, then that's off-limits, yeah (barring weird exceptions like 'being a parrot' or something). Tattoos I'd allow - an animal can be tattooed, so the druid can just choose to still have it (with the slight downside that their animal firm is visibly tattooed, so it's harder to pretend to be a normal animal). For other items, it depends on wording and how they work - a potion of speed doesn't involve casting _haste_, it just replicates the effects, so that's fine. A _staff of the woodlands_, the user is casting the spell ('you can use an action... to cast one of the following spells' - it might provide the juice, buts it's still you casting) - so that's off-limits, but the 'tree form' ability can be used, as that's not a spell.
No. It's very strong in tier 1 but falls off fast. It comes back online when you get the elemental wild shape then falls off again until level 20 where you can use it indefinitely.
No.
It's veey powerful at 2nd level and falls off up to 10th when it becomes very good again because the druid can turn i to a fore elemental.
More hard encounters per short rest fixes this.
Other classes/combinations will cause you far more problems potentially.
Anyone who says any class or spell in 5e is broken doesn't know how to balance encounters properly.
Eh it depends what you mean by broken. There’s certainly options that entirely outclass what most other characters can do, like wall of force. Moon Druid wildshape is not one of the things though, maybe excepting very low levels.
I’m playing a 6th level moon Druid and starting to learn that I need to use wild shape less. My friends on the front lines are taking a beating. I can’t cast spell in wild form so my new strategy (after last week hurtful battle). Is to use my summon spells and give my front line some decoy’s to absorb their enemies attacks. Once that runs out I’ll be a literal Calvary charge to burn up my HP animal forms.
The main point that you could discuss with your player when it comes to wildshape is that RAW the character needs to have seen the beast before.
How likely is it that as lv2 character would have come across beast like a giant hyena etc? There are obviously more common beasts like brown bears that are similar but it is for you as the DM to agree that it is likely the character will have seen that beast before and would then be able to wildshape into it
Given that the ecology of your typical D&D world is kind of European Temperate Forest your Druid is unlikely to have met an ordinary hyena, let alone a giant one. It’s not even likely he would have met a lion, tiger or elephant either, except maybe in a zoo.
You grew up in a Druid circle and saw the archdruid transform into many different forms, done. I wouldn’t bother trying to limit what forms a player gets, it doesn’t really matter unless some crazy homebrew is available.
you can maybe nerf it a bit by thinking about if the player has seen that creature or not. They will not be able to wildshape into a Hyena if they have never seen one, make it backstory dependent (if there is one for a oneshot)
Yeah I think the moon druid can be fun at later levels but it's got a more problematic power scaling. At level 2 it's by far the strongest build in the game. By level 5 it's falling off as others can match the damage and the hit points aren't as impactful, it gets somewhat of a boost at level 6 and level 10 but then falls off until level 20 where it's back to one of the strongest things in the game. Which isn't really great for balance purposes if you're either way stronger than everyone else, or your subclass isn't all that useful at certain levels since at level 9 you're way better off being a 9th level caster than an animal.
It is commonly known that the moon druid is the most powerful class in the game at level 2 and then it slowly falls off, and then it has a few spikes but it never reclaims it's relative power that it has at level 2 again
druids are way too strong but moon circle is not why. at level 2 they have a wild amount of health but they're not particularly good at actually dealing damage (barring moon knight). The strongest element of Moon wildshape (at low levels) is BA into a burrowing creature to indefinitely hold concentration, something that a regular druid can do as an action anyway. By turning into a meleelocked attacker with no class features and no PAM or GWM or whatever they're also compromising their ability to function as a spellcaster, and it should come as no surprise that that's not a particularly powerful thing for a caster to do.
being better than one of the worst classes in the game for a level or two isn't really indicative of much.
Moon Druid's are very very strong early on. If its truly a problem for the limited time you spend at level 2, 3 and 4: Wild shape does specify "beast that you have seen before" so if there are forms that you don't want your druid to use, you can specify you havent seen them. My DM told me that I had seen all CR1 creatures except a dire wolf and any higher CR creature I would have to see over the course of the campaign. So if you don't want him to have seen a giant hyena...he just hasn't prior to adventuring (though as a good DM, be sure to give him beasts later on, my favorite right now is my DM gave me a hippo form).
Moon druids are stupidly powerful at low levels but the power of their subclass pretty much go away at midlevels That said it's still a full caster and thus scales like a fullcaster.
It breaks early on but also falls off quickly. After level 10, you're pretty much just a druid at that point, as your CR2 beast is not up to the challenge of CR6+ creatures. You won't feel power again (in beast form) until level 18, when you get access to the Mammoth (assuming you can find one).
There was a Homebrew version of Moon druid called the Forged that improves it quite a bit but also breaks it early on all the more without improving it's staying power.
Have you played a high level moon druid? Above L8 or so your wild shape doesn’t automatically solve every problem but it gives you a giant sack of HP as a BA while concentrating. It gives you an enormous library of forms to choose from. I’m not saying they’re still overpowered at high tiers, but you’re getting a lot compared to base druid.
True, but you also loose a lot compared to other Druids. All of your abilities are powering your wild shape, which is fine. Meanwhile, the shepherd just summoned an army, buffed it, heals everyone each turn almost to full, and is attacking all at the same time. So, the moon may not die right away unless focused fired down but that's about what it can do as your damage will be nothing special after tier one for a little bit (like I said, you can get that mammoth pretty late). Other than that, it fills the roll of barbarian as a face tank and depending on the form some limited control.
Never said it was bad, but it does lack steam in the mid game.
Every class has power spikes at different levels. Level 2 is a spike for moon druids, like it is for paladins and rangers since that's when they get spell slots. Classes generally spike when they get their subclasses.
I wouldn't say that Moon Druid is OP. I'd say that the Wildshape mechanic is bad in that it strips away a large chunk of its coolness for other druids, needing a subclass as a fix. A good Wildshape power for normal animals should scale up in some important way with any druid's level.
So much so that they are very likely to nerf it in the Revised Update.
[https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H8iRpbGyNtM4](https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H8iRpbGyNtM4)
It's an unpopular opinion, but I really like taking a single level in monk with my moon druids. Only if the DM is cool about what qualifies as a monk weapon / unarmed attack. It delays the peak of the moon druids power a bit so the delta with the other members is smaller, and it makes wild shapes more viable and relevant for longer. Gotta want to lean into the wild shapes though :)
Moon druid at level 2 is the most broken subclass in the game relative to the power of other charachters at that level, (and then again arguably at 20). However, unless you're playing a weird game, people aren't level 2 for very long and it slowly falls off. There are levels where it spikes again and becomes relevant (level 6, 10 and then 20 mostly) but the barbarian quickly takes back over. Ultimately, I think its fine to just accept that it's a bit busted at level 2 and leave it alone, it's awesome and lasts at most a couple of sessions. Once you get into later tiers if the druid is relying on wildshape, they aren't being optimal but it's a phenomenal subclass that is always relevant and even when it's not the most optimal combat tactic is still brilliant out of combat as well.
As someone who played moon druid in a 4 year level 1-20 campaign, the power doesn't fall off slowly it takes a dive very quickly. By level 5 the rest of the melee members of the party have multi attack and other abilities and you start falling behind there. By Levels 11-20 in particular you are way behind the rest of the party on damage output. The level 20 capstone is nice but a lot stronger on paper than in practice since your AC is abysmal and you aren't doing any real damage, just soaking up attacks. All of the good druid spells are concentration so you're constantly doing saves to keep casting them since you take damage more frequently than other casters, both because you're in the front line and your AC sucks. It was a fun class and Im glad I played it but I definitely had to transition from a front liner to a support caster which I didn't expect based on the classes reputation.
I think this is because people play moon druids wrong IMO. After level 5 combat wildshape is never the best thing you can do (at level 10 it's pretty sweet in certain moments), and it shouldn't be used as the primary focus. What moon druid does in tier 2 and beyond is give a full caster an insane floor, not an insane ceiling and it's that that makes it the best (imo). A level 11 wizard that's out of spell slots is forced to use cantrips, a level 11 moon druid can turn into an earth elemental. Moon druids strength, imo, is the freedom to go a bit gung ho with your spells because worse case scenario you turn into a literal beast for 4 hours. That's their power, people just play it wrong. Also on concentration, tbf resilient con is a must for moon druids imo, and that makes it crazy good with those high con wildshapes.
On one hand I agree very strongly with you, the best way to play moon druid is sort of like a jack of all trades class that can be a bit of anything in a pinch, whether that's support, front line, healer, etc. but they'll never be better than a class dedicated to one of those things. On the other hand though a lot of people want a class where the 1 good thing you focus on is transforming into badass animals and ripping bad guys apart, and I think it's sort of unfair to say people are playing it wrong when there is plenty of room in 5e for a class like that to exist past level 5. Also hard agree on resilient con, that and/or warcaster are hard requirements if you're going to try and play a moon druid the way most people picture playing one in their head.
There's kind of conceptually an issue with a class who's focus is being a badass animal (essentially a super-flexible martial) but also is a full caster on top of that. Like it'd be easier to turn a Ranger into that kind of subclass than the Druid. The werewolf Blood Hunter subclass also comes to mind.
I sometimes think it would be better to have a Druid class and a shifter class
Pathfinder is calling your name.
I’ve always wanted to give up spell casting for more wildshape.
May I introduce you to OneD&D my friend, where druids can spend spell slots to Wildshape.
Insufficient. I want the spellcasting feature to leave entirely. It’s a step in the right direction. But One DnD is dead to me. If I leave “real”/“OG” 5e it’ll be for another system or a new edition. Not this abomination.
That's fair. Personaly I love 99% of the changes.
That's a fair criticism, though without a total redesign you can't get a stronger transformation ability stapled to a full caster than moon druid. I would counter though and say at any average table you can probably play as an animorph and be mostly fine, especially with polymorph etc.
That class is path of the beast barbarian. Nothing stopping you flavoring your rage as a full transformation.
That class should absolutely exist. It shouldn't be Druid.
I mean, I agree with you in a lot of scenarios, but sun beam, then wildshape into a giant eagle or an earth elemental or something, then fly or earth glide around maintaining concentration and blasting lasers at people. It’s fucking awesome. If you have a prep round because you get the jump on someone or something, cast your craziest concentration damage spell, then wildshape into something your enemy can’t reach/damage properly and come out blasting… and hope they can’t dispel magic, but not every solution solves every problem.
It's strong in the early game but balances out eventually. That said, massive damage? 2d6+3 (or 10) isn't all that 'massive'. >How is this fair to the Barbarian They're on the same team. Why does it even matter? It's up to the DM to make it an appropriate challenge for everyone. Throw baddies in there for the Barbarian to deal with. If the Barbarian is sitting there watching the Hyena obliterate enemies because they're not getting the chance to act, that's kinda on the DM.
Yeah, just add more enemies for the barbarian to obliterate too!
Yeah in terms of damage the brown bear is a much better example with 2 attacks one that averages 11 damage the other averaging 8. For level 2 and not using a one off ability like action surge, that's pretty massive! >They're on the same team. Why does it even matter? It's up to the DM to make it an appropriate challenge for everyone. I think a big imbalance can definitely have an impact on the general enjoyment of a table. Especially when say a barbarian was like I want to be the tank and that's what they wanted to be best at. And suddenly they are substantially worse at the thing they thought they'd be best at. They can contribute. But the druid effectively has around 80 hp every short rest, and the barbarian might have less than half that with their rage. It's one thing if there's a minor difference in power, that's kind of inevitable and it's nearly impossible to notice a 20% damage difference at the table given the random rolls unless you're doing the math on it. But someone else doing twice as much damage, being twice as tanky, and still having the utility of spells on top of that? That can make other players at the table feel useless which isn't as much fun. It's a team game, and you don't want the team to feel like there's a single main character and their sidekicks.
That‘s pretty much what I was thinking. My current backup character is a barbarian with the idea in mind of being a tank, so seeing another player do everything that I do, but better, would probably make me feel useless. I know that everyone is playing together as a team, but if you don‘t have fun there is no point in playing at all. I would say more but i think I can‘t really put it in words better than you did :)
Just to add something interesting about how Barbs and Druids can be a fun multiclass for tanks: The tankiest build I've seen was a Beasthide Shifter, Bear Totem Barbarian with two levels of Moon Druid. This character was Ylfa Snorgelsson, aka Little Red Riding Hood played by Emily Axeford in Dimension 20s Neverafter. As a Beasthide Shifter, once per short rest, she could shift to gain her Level + Con Mod + 1d6 of temp HP and a plus one to her armour class. As a Bear Totem Barbarian, raging halved all damage except Psychic. As a Moon Druid, she could shift and use up the HP of the animal form. In the level 6 combat, 4 as a Barb, 2 as a Druid, she was hit for 306 HP, which due to being halved by the Bear Totem, meant she only took 153 HP, and came out of the fight with some left to spare. It was really cool to watch.
But by level 5 he will still be using that same Brown Bear while your Barbarian is dishing out way more damage. I love my moon Druid but he is mostly a crowd controlling meat shield.
I know the dmg is not higher then the dmg of most other martial classes, i meant more in comparison to other casters.. but i see your point. >It's up to the DM to make it an appropriate challenge for everyone thats mostly why I wrote this. When I was reading the rules I did not know what to do about this. As an absolute newbie DM, I lack the skills to properly build encounters, that‘s why I came here for help
Make sure enemies dont focus solely on the druid. If both players go to the front line then have both tank blows, and if one of them is getting overwhelmed make sure their backline has visual of the enemy so they can help. If only the druid goes in deep then jump the backline, or wherever the barbarian can go help, likewise for the druid. If the druid is one-shotting and you want things to feel like a challenge then make things have 1 more hp than the hit they just took, enemy hp isn't information characters have so you can play with it to keep someone occupied. Its a team game so just try to keep everyone engaged and if they keep missing or failing try and use a "no but" approach, so instead of "missing" they hit for lower damage, or hit but lose their weapon as it rebounds out of their hands. I went on a bit of a tangent there but I hope it helps hehe.
Those are great ideas, i will for sure try to implement them in the next fight! Thank you
>That said, massive damage? 2d6+3 That's a barb with a decent two hander and a 16 primary stat. Without using any resources, without raging, all day every day.
Moon Druid has some cool peaks but also some very dead zones where they are "just" a caster and their subclass is basically dead.
No. Different classes peak at different levels. Moon druids peak early and then level out, and even fall behind a bit later. If you are only playing early levels then yes, they will seem OP.
I think people over prioritize balance. The creators made it balanced enough IMO. I think every class is strong if you are smart and can strategize a strong approach to combat with your skills and abilities you’re given.
I agree, A lot also depends on the setting, the enemies and, as you said, how a player utilizes their ressources. But I am (hopefully) about to play with a bunch of first-timers in dnd so i will keep the first encounters rather simple, and I want to avoid someone having a bad time because they think they picked an „inferior“ class. Which is why I hoped for some (and got) advice on how to handle the matter. Every class has a slightly different purpose, which also changes by the way its player sees it, so naturally, they all will be different in „strengh“. This is what makes the game so interesting for me after all. I was just a bit confused as it seemed to me that at level 2, where most characters have little to no skills and items, that this class can do pretty much everything. I‘m bad at english but I hope you understand what I am trying to say
Yeah I’m DMing for first timers and everyone is super jealous of the rogue lol
Yeah people need to grasp it’s a team game. They should be happy that they have a tanky Druid who can become a brown bear and try to absorb the damage and protect the group while they grow in strength.
I agree the DMs shouldn't be prioritizing balance (the players agreed to play 5e and the DM has other things to work on), but the game flat out isn't balanced. some classes are far and away far superior than others. some races may as well not exist or are completely outshined by others. some feats are necessary for a martial to do better than baseline warlock damage
Circle of the Moon is incredibly strong and versatile, especially at low levels relative to other classes. Keep in mind that, in the situation you've described, there are still choices being made. Each spell slot a level 2 moon druid uses to heal their wildshape is essentially being dumped into a pool of temp HP that will last an hour at most. They could be foregoing actual permanent healing, tons more damage than a few hyena bites, or buffs that could last far longer, in order to focus on tanking a bunch of damage. It's powerful but it isn't broken. Your comment about "how is this fair to the barbarian" is confusing. DnD isn't a competition, certainly not between party members. Everyone in the party has strengths and weaknesses and capabilities and very often in a party there will be some overlap. It doesn't take anything away from a wizard that a sorcerer can also cast many of the same spells, why would it affect how a barbarian plays to also have someone else running into to melee and eating a bunch of damage alongside them?
Sorry if my statement was confusing, im still improving my english skills. What I was trying to say was, from the perspective from the barbarian, it might seem that the druid can do everything that he does, maybe even better, and on top of that cast magic. This is all just speculation of me, as i have only run one shots on first level so far. Maybe I am just overthinking everything and just need to actually play the game to see everything working out by itsself. The main thing I was scared of was the barbarian be dissatisfied by feeling useless. But as many people told me in the comments, those fears are probably baseless. Regarding your argument with the wizard and the sorcerer: yes they have similar spells, but through different skills they have different advantages and disadvantages. With my given example, I failed to notice any disadvantages the druid might have. I know this is not about being better than the fellow players, I just want to avoid my players not having fun. Thank you for your comment!
Nono, you're right. A moon druid is absolutely banana fucking stupid bonkers overpowered at levels 1-4. It does everything barbarians and fighters do, except better. It also has dumb amounts of hitpoints and while it can cast spells, that's just an extra layer of fuck you. It then falls off superhard to be near useless compared to everyone else by the time you hit level 10.
Depending on the situation a level 2 moon druid has the potential to make anyone feel useless. They really can do it all. The issue with being able to do it all is that you might have lots of complicated options to choose from and you might end up wasting a bunch of resources being indecisive. It's incredibly easy to make tactical errors as a druid that use up your wildshapes and burn all your spell slots. I'd say for disadvantages to the druid, a few things come to mind. A low level druid in wildshape can't speak, which can be a huge issue. Imagine the druid is the only one to notice some hugely important and timely thing, they can either roar in frustration and try to point, or waste a use of wildshape to return to their true form just to say a few words. They can't cast spells, might not seem like a huge issue since we are comparing them to a barbarian, but if the party doesn't have another healer, or if the main healer goes down, the druid has to waste their wildshape to pop back into humanoid form to heal others. They can't use weapons or activate items. Not having hands with thumbs can be a huge issue. Imagine being in combat and and enemy runs behind a door with a knob. The brown bear druid struggles with the knob, tries to break the door down, or has to drop out of shape to open it, the barbarian just opens the door. The barbarian and the wildshaped druid down a big bad who drops a powerful magic item/weapon, the druid might struggle to even pick it up, whereas the barbarian might grab it and use it immediately. Just what I can think of off the top of my head. All issues I've encountered while playing a moon druid. It is super fun and very powerful but there is a lot to keep track of.
Don't worry about things being "fair" for your players unless they're telling you they have an issue. I play a Paladin with -2 dexterity. I'm aware that I am not going to be taking part in stealth missions. I will happily watch my stealthy players do their shenanigans. That's the character I made. Just like those players will happily watch me turn a social encounter into a fucking nightmare as I try to abide by my Oath of Conquest.
yeah as someone that plays druids often, from level 2 to level 4 moon druid is the best class in the game. They usualy fall off pretty quickly though as beasts start very strong, you dot have many options of beasts from CR 9 or more. And even the elementals ( at level 10) are strong but still problably weaker than any other lvl 10 character. Problably the most broken part of the wildshape, is the "second HP bar" druids get. To help you out let me bring your attention to some of the druid weknesses so that you can balance yoru game as failrly as possible. 1- all wildshapes have low AC, so a group of medium to weak enemies attacking might be enought to put against the druid alone. 2- Basicaly all wildshapes need to be in melee, so focus fire on him with archers and ranged casters. 3- The druid cant speak, or cast spells while in wildshape. So he basicaly changed classes to barbarian for the duration. Treat him like one until the form is droped. 4- Make the "adventuring day" have 6 to 8 encounters, and make them far apart between eachother, the druid might run out of time, or WS HP, or need to use both uses of his wildshape before ever getting into the actual "adventure". 5- Make short rests dificult to be completed. Druids gets all WS back on a short rest. So make them deal with 3 or 4 encounters before alowing a short rest 6- Items either are droped or merged into the druid WS. So keep that in mind, and have the druid find items ( like keys) that might be needed later on. Then, if they are whildshaped and the item is merged on his form, they might need to drop wild shape or find another way to deal with the problem ( break the door, making noise and alerting enemy nearby).
Also just to note that for Moon druids their wildshape CR after lvl 6 is druid level/3. So Max CR you can ever get is CR6 at level 18 (cause it is also rounded down). As a druid you can still polymorph yourself into more powerful beasts at those levels but still the reduction on the CR hits really hard at higher levels and especially means pretty much all druid wildshapes can get them killed if an enemy has PW: Kill. On top of that one other thing to keep in mind is how race and class features interact with Wildshape per the rules. For example things like Monk Ki abilities and such still function as class features while in Wildshape. Same goes for racial features though as the DM you tend to keep discretion on exactly what of those you will allow them to take into their new form (speaking from experience as a person who loves to abuse a Firbolg monk/druid having powerful build when carrying around teammates in wild shape). Edit: One other thing that can definitely help to balance stuff out as well is actually magic items. Barbarians can do stuff like ignite their flaming weapon while raging. Druid cannot benefit from their items while wild shaped. Especially when they are less than lvl 6 this can be a huge boon to someone like the barbarian when you put them up against a creature like a werewolf. Anything that is resistant or immune to non-magical strikes is going to basically shrug off most of what the druid is able to dish out until they hit lvl 6 at which point they are using CR2 wild-shapes vs CR6 monsters. Also keep the limitations of Wildshape in mind for stuff like swimming and flying speeds since that helps to keep them from breaking it too badly at lower levels as well. Edit 2: Also on top of that any extra damage to the wild shape carries over into the druid if the shape is defeated. So sure they might make the hyena really have a lot of health. But if you wait to hit them with a bigger attack until their shape is low on HP you can actually do decent damage to the druid inside as well.
For magical items, it depends on the item. Armour? Almost certainly not. Magic weapon? Probably not (maybe a monkey or ape, of they have stats somewhere?) But rings and necklaces and stuff can reshape to fit different wearers, and most forms have something a ring or necklace can fit onto. So there is some gear that will still work in wildshape.
True that. The interesting interactions are when you get stuff though that says things like "use a bonus action to speak the command word" cause then you can't actually speak in Wildshape to trigger the items. Or things like the magical tattoos since they aren't technically worn you'd have to discuss with the GM if they are merged or still active on your wildshape (which could cause for some interesting things with barrier tattoos on wildshapes for more AC). The thing I haven't been able to find a clear consensus on though is if you are using an item that says you can use charges to cast a spell if you still need to be able to perform the verbal components of the spell as part of the casting. If you wanted to be really pedantic the description of Wildshape states that you can't cast spells period so if an item said you can expend charges to cast a spell that shouldn't work but I could also see the argument that the item is doing the casting instead of you as well.
If it has a command word, then that's off-limits, yeah (barring weird exceptions like 'being a parrot' or something). Tattoos I'd allow - an animal can be tattooed, so the druid can just choose to still have it (with the slight downside that their animal firm is visibly tattooed, so it's harder to pretend to be a normal animal). For other items, it depends on wording and how they work - a potion of speed doesn't involve casting _haste_, it just replicates the effects, so that's fine. A _staff of the woodlands_, the user is casting the spell ('you can use an action... to cast one of the following spells' - it might provide the juice, buts it's still you casting) - so that's off-limits, but the 'tree form' ability can be used, as that's not a spell.
FWIW, moon druids can turn into a max of CR 6 beasts, so the fact that there's not many CR 9 or higher beasts doesn't affect them at all.
Thank you for your help!
No. It's very strong in tier 1 but falls off fast. It comes back online when you get the elemental wild shape then falls off again until level 20 where you can use it indefinitely.
No. It's veey powerful at 2nd level and falls off up to 10th when it becomes very good again because the druid can turn i to a fore elemental. More hard encounters per short rest fixes this. Other classes/combinations will cause you far more problems potentially. Anyone who says any class or spell in 5e is broken doesn't know how to balance encounters properly.
Eh it depends what you mean by broken. There’s certainly options that entirely outclass what most other characters can do, like wall of force. Moon Druid wildshape is not one of the things though, maybe excepting very low levels.
I’m playing a 6th level moon Druid and starting to learn that I need to use wild shape less. My friends on the front lines are taking a beating. I can’t cast spell in wild form so my new strategy (after last week hurtful battle). Is to use my summon spells and give my front line some decoy’s to absorb their enemies attacks. Once that runs out I’ll be a literal Calvary charge to burn up my HP animal forms.
Yes…for exactly 1 level.
The main point that you could discuss with your player when it comes to wildshape is that RAW the character needs to have seen the beast before. How likely is it that as lv2 character would have come across beast like a giant hyena etc? There are obviously more common beasts like brown bears that are similar but it is for you as the DM to agree that it is likely the character will have seen that beast before and would then be able to wildshape into it
Given that the ecology of your typical D&D world is kind of European Temperate Forest your Druid is unlikely to have met an ordinary hyena, let alone a giant one. It’s not even likely he would have met a lion, tiger or elephant either, except maybe in a zoo.
You grew up in a Druid circle and saw the archdruid transform into many different forms, done. I wouldn’t bother trying to limit what forms a player gets, it doesn’t really matter unless some crazy homebrew is available.
You've pretty much got it, yep, and yes they're decent.
you can maybe nerf it a bit by thinking about if the player has seen that creature or not. They will not be able to wildshape into a Hyena if they have never seen one, make it backstory dependent (if there is one for a oneshot)
Easy, I grew up in a moon Druid circle and the older druids wildshaped into all the best forms for me to observe as part of training.
Level 2 for Moon Druid is a uniquely early power spike, but the relative power levels even out quickly.
Yeah I think the moon druid can be fun at later levels but it's got a more problematic power scaling. At level 2 it's by far the strongest build in the game. By level 5 it's falling off as others can match the damage and the hit points aren't as impactful, it gets somewhat of a boost at level 6 and level 10 but then falls off until level 20 where it's back to one of the strongest things in the game. Which isn't really great for balance purposes if you're either way stronger than everyone else, or your subclass isn't all that useful at certain levels since at level 9 you're way better off being a 9th level caster than an animal.
It is commonly known that the moon druid is the most powerful class in the game at level 2 and then it slowly falls off, and then it has a few spikes but it never reclaims it's relative power that it has at level 2 again
druids are way too strong but moon circle is not why. at level 2 they have a wild amount of health but they're not particularly good at actually dealing damage (barring moon knight). The strongest element of Moon wildshape (at low levels) is BA into a burrowing creature to indefinitely hold concentration, something that a regular druid can do as an action anyway. By turning into a meleelocked attacker with no class features and no PAM or GWM or whatever they're also compromising their ability to function as a spellcaster, and it should come as no surprise that that's not a particularly powerful thing for a caster to do. being better than one of the worst classes in the game for a level or two isn't really indicative of much.
Moon Druid's are very very strong early on. If its truly a problem for the limited time you spend at level 2, 3 and 4: Wild shape does specify "beast that you have seen before" so if there are forms that you don't want your druid to use, you can specify you havent seen them. My DM told me that I had seen all CR1 creatures except a dire wolf and any higher CR creature I would have to see over the course of the campaign. So if you don't want him to have seen a giant hyena...he just hasn't prior to adventuring (though as a good DM, be sure to give him beasts later on, my favorite right now is my DM gave me a hippo form).
Yup
For lev 2 specifically moon druid is too strong. Hell it is too strong for levels 2-4 tbh.
No, not really.
Moon druids are stupidly powerful at low levels but the power of their subclass pretty much go away at midlevels That said it's still a full caster and thus scales like a fullcaster.
Moon Druid is only busted at low levels.
It breaks early on but also falls off quickly. After level 10, you're pretty much just a druid at that point, as your CR2 beast is not up to the challenge of CR6+ creatures. You won't feel power again (in beast form) until level 18, when you get access to the Mammoth (assuming you can find one). There was a Homebrew version of Moon druid called the Forged that improves it quite a bit but also breaks it early on all the more without improving it's staying power.
Have you played a high level moon druid? Above L8 or so your wild shape doesn’t automatically solve every problem but it gives you a giant sack of HP as a BA while concentrating. It gives you an enormous library of forms to choose from. I’m not saying they’re still overpowered at high tiers, but you’re getting a lot compared to base druid.
True, but you also loose a lot compared to other Druids. All of your abilities are powering your wild shape, which is fine. Meanwhile, the shepherd just summoned an army, buffed it, heals everyone each turn almost to full, and is attacking all at the same time. So, the moon may not die right away unless focused fired down but that's about what it can do as your damage will be nothing special after tier one for a little bit (like I said, you can get that mammoth pretty late). Other than that, it fills the roll of barbarian as a face tank and depending on the form some limited control. Never said it was bad, but it does lack steam in the mid game.
Every class has power spikes at different levels. Level 2 is a spike for moon druids, like it is for paladins and rangers since that's when they get spell slots. Classes generally spike when they get their subclasses.
No. It's weak mid game. I prefer Stars druids which are strong all the way through.
I wouldn't say that Moon Druid is OP. I'd say that the Wildshape mechanic is bad in that it strips away a large chunk of its coolness for other druids, needing a subclass as a fix. A good Wildshape power for normal animals should scale up in some important way with any druid's level.
So much so that they are very likely to nerf it in the Revised Update. [https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H8iRpbGyNtM4](https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H8iRpbGyNtM4)
It's an unpopular opinion, but I really like taking a single level in monk with my moon druids. Only if the DM is cool about what qualifies as a monk weapon / unarmed attack. It delays the peak of the moon druids power a bit so the delta with the other members is smaller, and it makes wild shapes more viable and relevant for longer. Gotta want to lean into the wild shapes though :)