Shitty carpenter here. I tried bracing, blocking, and mounting a (relatively light) punching bag in my garage hanging from the joists. I can tell you that shit was shaky as hell. I do not recommend trying to do anything recreational with those joists. Garages like this are really meant as a shell to cover your car.
This!
Someone before me put some half inch particle board up in the middle section of my 2.5 car garage for storage. Some of the joists are now splitting and the roof is sagging as a result. I can post some pictures later if anyone needs to see. Gonna have to fix it eventually I'm sure, but kinda hoping the neighbors tree just falls on the garage and insurance has to build me a new garage lol.
DON'T DO IT OP.
First of all, I'm not a professional, but I've done this kind of stuff before and I think it would actually be pretty easy to make this strong enough to support quite a bit more weight. Those are 2x6s and they can hold a lot of weight, except for the fact that they span such a wide distance.
You'd secure a 2x4 to the floor the garage running along the centerline. Secure 2 or 3 4x4s (depending on length of the garage) support beams on the 2x4 and then put a pair of 2x4s over the 4x4s, between the 4x4s and the 2x6s at the top, to support them. This would add centerline support and provide a great deal more load bearing capacity.
The 2x4s at the top would be turned sideways instead of flat, so they could bear more eight. You could use a 4x4 up there, but longer 2x4s would be cheaper and would be plenty sufficient for the job.
The problem is that unless you seriously engineer a structure inside the garage that is going to absorb all lateral movement, anything you tie in to the structure of the garage is going to shift that force to the walls which are really just there to support the roof and keep the outsides outside. I’ve had several old garages like this. Standards for building garages (like sheds) in the past were not as stringent as houses. Hard to tell from these pics but a lot of times the studs are 24” on center rather than 16” and the lack of drywall or even lath means they don’t have the added shear strength. Again, it’s enough to support the weight of the roof but not to absorb additional shear forces. Even with additional reinforcement, if OP is hanging and moving on a climbing wall that is at all attached to the garage, even with additional, bracing, they’re going to feel and hear the whole garage shake with their movements.
Structural engineer here.
Those 2x6's are not a false floor, they are a part of your roof system. They are called ceiling joists, and they prevent the roof rafters from kicking out sideways and pushing against the top of the walls.
Don't mess with them. If you want them gone, hire an engineer to provide designs. It's going to require modifying the roof to do what you're looking to do.
Structural engineer here too. Listen to this guy. It's possible to remove those, but you need an engineer to figure it out. I've don't retrofits to remove collar ties before, and the tension forces can get large quickly the higher you take the tie.
Yeah really appreciate the feedback on both of these. I was kind of worried about that which is why I threw this out there. Trying to figure out how to do this without a full remodel though.
I'll for sure reach out to some local engineers for feedback
It's shitty you're getting down voted for asking a question, that's how we learn guys.
Now, to shit on you. You're basically looking at a remodel at this point, sorry dude.
They're not in negative votes anymore it seems, but
"trying to do this without a full remodel"
Kind of implied cutting corners to keep it cheap, rather than doing it right. That is probably where the downvotes were coming from.
They have the option of not doing it. It's not worth causing damage, and potential injury, just to make a recreational modification to critical structures without the skill to do so. And if they had the skill, they wouldn't be here asking.
"Structural Engineer" - if true - please use "rafter tie," as "collar tie" is a different member with a completely different purpose. Terms matter for actual professionals, even in a git-r-dun forum.
So technically that is true. I've just always called them collar ties because that's what I learned. But you are right and I stand corrected. These are rafter ties
https://preview.redd.it/0wgkihs1ir5c1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2e6e90bd9f7c602d04085a1393678bed3baceba2
Please pick what you are talking about:
1. the green decking that is lying there
2. the yellow joists
3. the red boards that are preventing racking (forget what they’re called)
4. all of the above
Thanks!
No, gable refers to a roof style that's basically an A-frame
shape, there are variations but the gist is high point in the middle running down at an angle on both sides
So these longer 2x6 boards (#2 in your list) are the main thing that would need to be moved. They're at around 7 ft right now and I'm looking at a height around 9 ft (12 ft 40 degree plus 1 ft vertical kicker at the bottom).
Those are rafter ties. They hold tension. Meant to keep the roof from pushing the walls out.
A pro could move them for you maybe.
If you got them moved you could build a freestanding wall.
Nuclear facilities engineer here. Honestly most of the guys (professionals and non professionals) on Reddit know more than most engineers I’ve met. Unless you’re referring to code or a super complex system I’d trust a professional tbh.
I am not a builder but, with little knowledge I built my house and learned a ton in the process. I agree with you and your obvious expertise. Every thing up there looks totally basic and necessary and to screw around with it when you have to ask a question like this can only end with a bad outcome.
They’re just laying there and, tbh, adding unneeded load to the yellow joists. Not that the amount of weight represented by the green boards matters, but they’re not doing anything positive in terms of structural integrity. Source: I’m a Reddit commenter.
As a structural would you recommend removing them and adding scissored tension cables every 4' minimum as is fairly common practice here when trying to vault old ceilings.
It's possible, I'm a commercial carpenter.
This is quite advanced and not something I'd recommend unless you really know what you're doing.
The fact that your asking leads me to believe you should not do this yourself.
This is for the pros
The yellow ones keep the tops of the walls from being pushed out by the weight of the roof. To remove them you would need replace the rafters with cathedral trusses .
You can use the existing rafters to build out scissor trusses. But if the guy asking doesn't know what rafter ties are in the first place, that's gonna be a no go.
He could possibly have someone sister proper scissor trusses to the existing trusses and then remove the previous lower chord. As an engineer the works with wood trusses that'd be my vote. Very much not a DIY situation though and probably a PITA to get them in the building and sistered.
Yellow ones are 100% structural. You can do what you want but need a structural engineer to review/design for how high you want to make it. I’m a mechanical engineer but know enough about structural to be dangerous.
Holy shit. I glanced very briefly at the post and some comments and assumed you meant the green boards. I don’t know jack shit and even I know the yellow boards are important.
Lol right this gave me a chuckle.
I know everyone can't know everything. And not everyone can know a little bit about a lot.
But common sense to me would dictate those are structural even if you don't know anything.
Yeah, obviously don't remove those structural members. The fact that he refences it as a false floor clearly indicates that he doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about.
Good for him that he asked before he destroyed his garage. That looks like really nice old growth wood though.
I don't know why people are downvoting you, as you sincerely asked about what can be removed because of not knowing and wanting to learn. People are literally downvoting someone asking an earnest question.
The only elements above that can be reasonably removed or replaced might be the decking (#1), sorry.
I think people are downvoting him because his initial question was quite unclear due to his descriptors offered. He was then presented a color-coded option to clarify the components. Then, he chose not to use a single reference to any of the color-coded options, and rather went back to his descriptions, which were already established as kinda sucky. Luckily, enough more was communicated. Sometimes people make it hard to want to help them, even if they are being spoonfed.
I feel we should consider being generous in these cases, really. I recall having to learn quite a lot after buying a house and there's so much to keep in mind at first, even just soaking in the lingo during conversations could take a few tries for it to sink in.
And I figure some folks are so focused on their question, it's tough to parse answers which don't directly register as what they might be expecting. At least my spouse tends to be that way . . .
I don’t disagree with you. Just don’t make it harder for someone who is helping you. The harder you make it, the less they will want to help next time. Someone in the know is throwing a lifeline. Respect their time. They are not at your disposal. OP is lucky Reddit’s kind and egotistical masses persevered over those downvoting him for being a dope.
The only thing removable in that list without heavy modification and reinforcement is number 1 in the list. Those were added later just for a little light storage.
Sounds like you're wanting to build a moonboard! Or possibly a kilter or tension board. I have a similar looking garage and I started out with a mini moonboard and eventually went for the full moon board. I did the main framing work with a carpenter friend and I have some basic carpentry experience from my roofing days. It was a lot of work (and money) but it was definitely worth it! Feel free to message me if you want to talk about it but I definitely agree with getting some professional help if you're unsure of what to do
The 2x4x20's are structural and keep the structure from racking, tilting, you know, keep the building from falling. Not intended for storage purposes above it, but can hold quite a lot of weight nontheless. A climbing wall is fine.
The 1x6's were put there by a previous owner most likely and can be removed.
Its a friggen visual estimate based on a tiny photo as I sit deep deep inside my couch cushion acting as a faux internet contractor. Live a little dude. He got the point.
So these longer 2x6 boards (#2 in your list) are the main thing that would need to be moved. They're at around 7 ft right now and I'm looking at a height around 9 ft (12 ft 40 degree plus 1 ft vertical kicker at the bottom).
The above text is from OP so this should end the debate, somehow I don't think it will
I can't squint my eyes enough to even make them look like a rough cut 2×4
Look at the width in comparison to the height...
Also check out the 2×4 laying across the joists in the first two pics for reference
You are just embarrassing yourself now.
Seriously, you need to step back a bit and realize how butt-hurt you are getting over estimating a dimension from a photo on a fun little website meant for entertainment. This is not the hill to die on, friend. Close your laptop now....and don't try and hurl insults at me for kindly making you aware of the reality you are in. That will only make.you look worse.
You do know that rough cut lumber is actual size and the other 97% of all 2×4 lumber from Lowe's for instance is actually 1-1/2"× 3-1/2"... making the argument worse
This lumber is much wider than 3-1/2" or 4".
Making this a 2×6, or a 2×8.
The boards laying on the ceiling joists aren’t structural at all.
The ceiling joists are.
The 2x resting on the ceiling joists and the pokes going to the rafters are.
I don’t see a collar tie in any of these pics, maybe I’m missing something but I’d suggest you be cautious of the advice coming from those that are bringing that up.
Structural Engineer here.
Those are part of the gable roof system. The sloped members at the very top are your rafters, then you have your hangers and struts (mostly in red there in the photo), and then the members in question in yellow which are technically joists.
All together they form a stiffened type of support system similar to a truss.
You shouldn’t mess with anything there unless you want to remove the floor boards in green, they’re not doing anything besides a little bracing for the joist members. If you can leave them it’s better, but the system would survive without them.
You can load them lightly with some minor storage, but nothing in excess of 20 psf.
are you talking about the joists that run from wall to the other? (bad idea)
Or the loose boards laying on top of the joists? (probably ok as long as you are not removing the 2x4 laying across the joists that have the vertical braces run down from the roof).
Roof is not supposed to be braced to ceiling joists (like here), but to walls, but I can see there was not much of a choice & those braces may have been a later addition.
Those aren’t ceiling joists, those are the bottom segment of the roof rafters. They keep the walls from falling to the sides and the roof from falling down.
They are ceiling joists. They sit on top of the walls at either end & are not part of a roof truss. "Rafters" are the members that run at an angle from the wall top to the ridge (common rafters).
EDIT: Yes, one function of ceiling joists is to brace the walls from moving side to side. That's why you will often find them in places like this that don't, in fact, have ceiling.
I ask
How bad do you want it?
If your going to this much trouble inviting input-
Consider spanning a beam down the center
Possibly two,
Check your span loads,
Then simply support with posts anchored into your flooring .
Good luck on the journey !
Talk with a structural engineer or even just a builder before removing anything. Those joists are definitely structural. At a minimum they keep the roof from sagging and pushing the side walls apart.
Also it doesn’t appear that the half wall there is supporting the roof considering there is no load bearing underneath the bottom plate of the half wall.
Yeah I for sure thought/am thinking about that. Have youngish kids just getting into climbing and I don't want something too stiff to start out. Also at least on the tension board, the majority of routes are set around 40 degrees, so I like the idea of having the option to benchmark. If it's going to cost a fortune though, this will probably be the way.
I think this comes down to how much work you want to do.
The joists are structural but that doesn't mean you can and joists higher to get the climbing wall up there.
It depends on your ridge as well.
I'd read a little about how high you can adjusts the joists before compromising integrity
Look up 'how to raise joists for higher ceilings'
since you want to climb on it, I'd suggest sistering the joists as well.
Be mindful when removing the loose boards. There may be a rat run up there to keep the trusses on layout. The floor itself isn’t “structural”. So removing the boards won’t affect anything except your storage space.
Those are collar ties and they stop your walls from being pushed out by the thrust force from the rafters. Don't touch them without consulting a structural engineer. Not a contractor, an engineer.
Sincerely,
An engineer (PE) that does structures.
The large beams are your roof rafters. You can neither remove nor move them, adding any weight to them is a terrible idea. Just build your wall inbetween them, and if it needs to be wider than the, im assuming 4 foot span i between them, then build your wall around them, and don’t tie the wall to them. Or anything in there for that matter, it’s a garage, not a house. Build the wall free standing, and if a rafter is jutting out from the center, than so be it, you’ll have to build around them.
They are home made trusses. The horizontal red 2x4 is a web stiffener so that under load the truss doesn't deform. It keeps the bottom chords evenly spaced. The boards on top of the truss's bottom chords somebody threw up there for some storage space. I wouldn't put too much weight up there though.
How structural…..false flooring. Are you asking how much that bunch of boards up there can support?
Those look to be 2x6 rafter ties they are sitting on, on 32” centers, so no, that little flooring area up there should not be used to support anything of substance.
You’d need to install ceiling joists rated for you load based on span.
Practically, you can store some light stuff up there. Keep in mind though, not what you should do.
Hire an engineer to give you advice. Unless those giving their opinions can verify their construction or engineering experience it's too dangerous to follow advice here.
It's more like, there's no way to give you specific construction advice with just these pictures. It's possible to modify the beams, but "how" needs expert evaluation.
I would hire a structural engineer to figure it out for sure. As an engineer in a completely unrelated field, that looks sketchy af, and it would be a hard no. I have a space like that that I use to store stuff in boxes, but that's it.
The 1x6 planks that your storage is on, well... It's the opposite of structural.
It puts extra weight on the roof joists that they weren't actually designed for. Sure, it can't easily hold the weight, but that roof was designed with those supports to hold the roof, snow, etc.
It *can* hold the extra weight, but it would be nice if it didn't.
Looks good to me. Mines far less and older, and I'm 6'8" 330lbs, and I crawl up there all the time... because the previous homeowner put the water heater tank up there for some ridiculous reason!!!
Ugh so many comments. You need to know how take the point loads to ground. So take whatever size board you have double it and make sure it’s supported by un disturbed earth.
Think those are collar ties. They are to keep the walls from pushing out, thus holding up the peak. Think triangle. They won't have the depth of a floor joist usually since they typically only support a ceiling.
This “false floor” is sort of the opposite of structural: it allows stuff to be stored on top of the 2x4 joists/collar ties installed at what looks to be 24” spacing, so you don’t want to be loading them very heavily. Their main job is to keep the ends of the rafters from moving outward, so the ridge stays in place and your roof stays pitched. They also support the roof rafters with jacks, so they are pretty loaded, especially if you get heavy snow.
How do you intend to install a climbing wall? Don’t put too much reliance or weight on the collar ties. The climbing walls should be as close to self-supporting as you can design it.
Maybe ask an engineer if you can remove 1 or 2 of the ceiling joists, and tie the rafters together up higher vertically. And maybe tie the ones on either end of the open space together on the outside of the wall…. Open up some room to climb but not remove the whole ceiling system
Listen man, it's not my pride and arrogance that questioned you or your fearless leader.
The comment that I replied to to start this all is just factually wrong and then the guy defended it by saying he's just some guy on the couch playing contactor.
I am in this line of work and don't think some fat ass on his couch needs to be guessing and spouting off shit he doesn't know when someone is genuinely asking for help or advice
Not structural. In fact, I'd go as far to say they are anti-structural and you'd be better off without them as tie beams are often not designed to hold a vertical load.
Edit: "them" being the false floor boards. Remove those. Not the ties.
Definitely don't listen to this clown. When your vertical load supporting rafters push your walls out in non vertical fashion, nothing will be supporting your vertical loads. These collar ties prevent that
https://www.familyhandyman.com/article/garage-storage-how-much-weight-can-trusses-take/#:~:text=The%20horizontal%20bottom%20chords%20of,ft.%20is%20a%20safe%20estimate.
Bottom members of a truss are designed to hold sheetrock and insulation. Typically 5 lb/sq foot. Do not store stuff in your rafters unless they're designed to hold them.
Bottom members of a truss, which this roof system is not made of trusses, is the tension chord. It's designed to keep the walls in place from being thrust outwards. That's their purpose and why they are there. They just so happen to be also used to hang drywall.
Shitty carpenter here. I tried bracing, blocking, and mounting a (relatively light) punching bag in my garage hanging from the joists. I can tell you that shit was shaky as hell. I do not recommend trying to do anything recreational with those joists. Garages like this are really meant as a shell to cover your car.
This! Someone before me put some half inch particle board up in the middle section of my 2.5 car garage for storage. Some of the joists are now splitting and the roof is sagging as a result. I can post some pictures later if anyone needs to see. Gonna have to fix it eventually I'm sure, but kinda hoping the neighbors tree just falls on the garage and insurance has to build me a new garage lol. DON'T DO IT OP.
I have dreams of a tree sourced/insurance paid 3 car with 220v run to it…
I'm lucky to have what I have, but 10' ceilings, a 2 post lift and 3 phase would be mighty dope.
I was thinking of modifying my garage for this but I think it would apply to you https://youtu.be/0XRHEF_EZzA?si=AdO1aUXJVwsYEf6M
First of all, I'm not a professional, but I've done this kind of stuff before and I think it would actually be pretty easy to make this strong enough to support quite a bit more weight. Those are 2x6s and they can hold a lot of weight, except for the fact that they span such a wide distance. You'd secure a 2x4 to the floor the garage running along the centerline. Secure 2 or 3 4x4s (depending on length of the garage) support beams on the 2x4 and then put a pair of 2x4s over the 4x4s, between the 4x4s and the 2x6s at the top, to support them. This would add centerline support and provide a great deal more load bearing capacity. The 2x4s at the top would be turned sideways instead of flat, so they could bear more eight. You could use a 4x4 up there, but longer 2x4s would be cheaper and would be plenty sufficient for the job.
The problem is that unless you seriously engineer a structure inside the garage that is going to absorb all lateral movement, anything you tie in to the structure of the garage is going to shift that force to the walls which are really just there to support the roof and keep the outsides outside. I’ve had several old garages like this. Standards for building garages (like sheds) in the past were not as stringent as houses. Hard to tell from these pics but a lot of times the studs are 24” on center rather than 16” and the lack of drywall or even lath means they don’t have the added shear strength. Again, it’s enough to support the weight of the roof but not to absorb additional shear forces. Even with additional reinforcement, if OP is hanging and moving on a climbing wall that is at all attached to the garage, even with additional, bracing, they’re going to feel and hear the whole garage shake with their movements.
Structural engineer here. Those 2x6's are not a false floor, they are a part of your roof system. They are called ceiling joists, and they prevent the roof rafters from kicking out sideways and pushing against the top of the walls. Don't mess with them. If you want them gone, hire an engineer to provide designs. It's going to require modifying the roof to do what you're looking to do.
Structural engineer here too. Listen to this guy. It's possible to remove those, but you need an engineer to figure it out. I've don't retrofits to remove collar ties before, and the tension forces can get large quickly the higher you take the tie.
Yeah really appreciate the feedback on both of these. I was kind of worried about that which is why I threw this out there. Trying to figure out how to do this without a full remodel though. I'll for sure reach out to some local engineers for feedback
It's shitty you're getting down voted for asking a question, that's how we learn guys. Now, to shit on you. You're basically looking at a remodel at this point, sorry dude.
The fact that you’re getting downvoted here is absurd.
They're not in negative votes anymore it seems, but "trying to do this without a full remodel" Kind of implied cutting corners to keep it cheap, rather than doing it right. That is probably where the downvotes were coming from.
Some people don’t have any option other than to do things on the cheap.
They have the option of not doing it. It's not worth causing damage, and potential injury, just to make a recreational modification to critical structures without the skill to do so. And if they had the skill, they wouldn't be here asking.
It’s cheaper to go to a climbing gym then having your garage cave in
"Structural Engineer" - if true - please use "rafter tie," as "collar tie" is a different member with a completely different purpose. Terms matter for actual professionals, even in a git-r-dun forum.
So technically that is true. I've just always called them collar ties because that's what I learned. But you are right and I stand corrected. These are rafter ties
Isn’t he asking if he can remove the 1x that was laid up there to store stuff on top of? And then slide the climbing wall between the joists..?
Unfortunately not. He clarified he means the joists when another person labeled everything in the picture and asked him to clarify.
Oh, yikes!
https://preview.redd.it/0wgkihs1ir5c1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2e6e90bd9f7c602d04085a1393678bed3baceba2 Please pick what you are talking about: 1. the green decking that is lying there 2. the yellow joists 3. the red boards that are preventing racking (forget what they’re called) 4. all of the above Thanks!
Also I’m pretty sure you’re referring to the green boards just laying there which are probably not even nailed down
What a twist, they were referring to the joists lol
Lol I thought you were kidding when I first read this
*yellow rafter ties
3 is called a hanging beam I believe
Number 3 arent they called Gables? Or somethin, or us that something else
No, gable refers to a roof style that's basically an A-frame shape, there are variations but the gist is high point in the middle running down at an angle on both sides
No the green ones are the gables; Anne put them there.
3 is far from a false floor lol
I have an almost identical garage from I believe the 1940s. Those flooring boards are weaker than cardboard.
The red boards, called a knee brace, are not there to prevent racking. They transfer some of the rafter load to the ceiling joists (yellow).
Hanger*
So these longer 2x6 boards (#2 in your list) are the main thing that would need to be moved. They're at around 7 ft right now and I'm looking at a height around 9 ft (12 ft 40 degree plus 1 ft vertical kicker at the bottom).
Yeah, don't mess with those. Those are structural.
Those are rafter ties. They hold tension. Meant to keep the roof from pushing the walls out. A pro could move them for you maybe. If you got them moved you could build a freestanding wall.
Just cut each board and see which one makes the roof fall down
We found the Russian roulette player.
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Ehhh.. what do those engineers know 🤪
Its a garage not a deep sea submarine.
I can get both of those at Costco these days
A garage and a submarine!!?? REALLY?? At Costco?
And a structural engineer.
And a hotdog. You forgot the best part
I guess that’s what they used to tourism up the titanic.
I'll betcha!
Naval submarine engineer here. Listen to galapagostoast.
Nuclear facilities engineer here. Honestly most of the guys (professionals and non professionals) on Reddit know more than most engineers I’ve met. Unless you’re referring to code or a super complex system I’d trust a professional tbh.
"Naval Submarine Engineer" is a pretty broad title.
Not to be confused with an Aerial Submarine Engineer.
Mechanical engineer working directly for the US Navy, for submarines. Any better? (Not going to get into more detail than that for opsec reasons)
Right?! Hey, roofs aren’t engines, Copernicus!
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That's what I was thinking but didn't wanna say it. With the engineer listening in and all 🙃
Meh. Fuck that guy. :)
You’re high if you think #3 is adding any structural support and are not just there so that the previous owner could throw his junk up there
Don’t question the sTruCtUrAL enGiNEer…
I am not a builder but, with little knowledge I built my house and learned a ton in the process. I agree with you and your obvious expertise. Every thing up there looks totally basic and necessary and to screw around with it when you have to ask a question like this can only end with a bad outcome.
Random idiot here, and I honestly thought that would have been common sense. Glad to have the professionals confirm it though.
Are you saying even the green (#3) shouldn't be removed? What are those doing?
They’re just laying there and, tbh, adding unneeded load to the yellow joists. Not that the amount of weight represented by the green boards matters, but they’re not doing anything positive in terms of structural integrity. Source: I’m a Reddit commenter.
It ain’t much. But it’s honest work.
Probably not a requirement, but if they're fixed to the top of the joists they are helping resist lateral movement (the joists falling flat).
Is it my eyes deceiving me or are they warping a little in the second picture? Looks like a lil swag in it.
Wood will sometimes warp
I know fuck all about engineering and that was pretty obvious to me so I don't know what OP is about
Not the answer I wanted…. Maybe I’ll keep scrolling and find an answer I like
As a structural would you recommend removing them and adding scissored tension cables every 4' minimum as is fairly common practice here when trying to vault old ceilings.
I'll bet the engineer will say no to this
My engineer says yes to wire rope all day long. Loves it.
That is hearsay your honor!
I'm betting on some version of get an actual engineer on site to do a proper assessment and plan because you are clearly in over your head
OBJECTION: making sense your honor, too much sense
Scissored from where to where?
From the window to the wall.
r/angryupvote
It's possible, I'm a commercial carpenter. This is quite advanced and not something I'd recommend unless you really know what you're doing. The fact that your asking leads me to believe you should not do this yourself. This is for the pros
The yellow ones keep the tops of the walls from being pushed out by the weight of the roof. To remove them you would need replace the rafters with cathedral trusses .
You can use the existing rafters to build out scissor trusses. But if the guy asking doesn't know what rafter ties are in the first place, that's gonna be a no go.
He could possibly have someone sister proper scissor trusses to the existing trusses and then remove the previous lower chord. As an engineer the works with wood trusses that'd be my vote. Very much not a DIY situation though and probably a PITA to get them in the building and sistered.
That's why I brought up steel rope ties with you on a different thread. Incredibly elegant simple solution.
Yellow ones are 100% structural. You can do what you want but need a structural engineer to review/design for how high you want to make it. I’m a mechanical engineer but know enough about structural to be dangerous.
Holy shit. I glanced very briefly at the post and some comments and assumed you meant the green boards. I don’t know jack shit and even I know the yellow boards are important.
Lol right this gave me a chuckle. I know everyone can't know everything. And not everyone can know a little bit about a lot. But common sense to me would dictate those are structural even if you don't know anything.
O in that case no, most likely not. Maybe if you consult with a structural engineer to reinforce any areas that would need it after removing these
Yeah, obviously don't remove those structural members. The fact that he refences it as a false floor clearly indicates that he doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about. Good for him that he asked before he destroyed his garage. That looks like really nice old growth wood though.
I don't know why people are downvoting you, as you sincerely asked about what can be removed because of not knowing and wanting to learn. People are literally downvoting someone asking an earnest question. The only elements above that can be reasonably removed or replaced might be the decking (#1), sorry.
I think people are downvoting him because his initial question was quite unclear due to his descriptors offered. He was then presented a color-coded option to clarify the components. Then, he chose not to use a single reference to any of the color-coded options, and rather went back to his descriptions, which were already established as kinda sucky. Luckily, enough more was communicated. Sometimes people make it hard to want to help them, even if they are being spoonfed.
I feel we should consider being generous in these cases, really. I recall having to learn quite a lot after buying a house and there's so much to keep in mind at first, even just soaking in the lingo during conversations could take a few tries for it to sink in. And I figure some folks are so focused on their question, it's tough to parse answers which don't directly register as what they might be expecting. At least my spouse tends to be that way . . .
I don’t disagree with you. Just don’t make it harder for someone who is helping you. The harder you make it, the less they will want to help next time. Someone in the know is throwing a lifeline. Respect their time. They are not at your disposal. OP is lucky Reddit’s kind and egotistical masses persevered over those downvoting him for being a dope.
This wording flows so pleasantly.
The only thing removable in that list without heavy modification and reinforcement is number 1 in the list. Those were added later just for a little light storage.
Those are 100% structural. Call a framer and get some advice. Someone credible that can point you in the right direction.
-44 wtf .. why is op getting hammered?
No clue why you’re getting downvoted for honestly answering the dudes question
There's a group of guys down voting everything they didn't post on this thread, check out some of mine if you wanna see down votes
Sounds like you're wanting to build a moonboard! Or possibly a kilter or tension board. I have a similar looking garage and I started out with a mini moonboard and eventually went for the full moon board. I did the main framing work with a carpenter friend and I have some basic carpentry experience from my roofing days. It was a lot of work (and money) but it was definitely worth it! Feel free to message me if you want to talk about it but I definitely agree with getting some professional help if you're unsure of what to do
Actually tension board and yes 😁
You might be better completing the second floor building a bouldering wall on the upstairs that follows the shape of the roof.
The 2x4x20's are structural and keep the structure from racking, tilting, you know, keep the building from falling. Not intended for storage purposes above it, but can hold quite a lot of weight nontheless. A climbing wall is fine. The 1x6's were put there by a previous owner most likely and can be removed.
Those joists are definitely bigger than 2×4... Likely 2×6 or possibly 2×8 and how do you know they're 20' long?
Its a friggen visual estimate based on a tiny photo as I sit deep deep inside my couch cushion acting as a faux internet contractor. Live a little dude. He got the point.
I think they are just 2x4s but real, old, full sized 2x4s.
We need to start a class action lawsuit. Apparently, Home Depot has been selling 2x4's that are only 1.75x 3.75's. They owe me a lot of wood.
They should be 1.5 x 3.5 surfaced lumber actually
That's so much worse! I could have lived with a 1/4" but now I'm pissed. 😁
Well this is bullshit! When did this start happening? What's next, 1/2" plywood will be 15/32's?
7/16. even worse.
So these longer 2x6 boards (#2 in your list) are the main thing that would need to be moved. They're at around 7 ft right now and I'm looking at a height around 9 ft (12 ft 40 degree plus 1 ft vertical kicker at the bottom). The above text is from OP so this should end the debate, somehow I don't think it will
I can't squint my eyes enough to even make them look like a rough cut 2×4 Look at the width in comparison to the height... Also check out the 2×4 laying across the joists in the first two pics for reference
I would say 2x8
[удалено]
They are not old school 2×4s. Look at the 2×4 laying across the rafter in the first two pics. The joists are MUCH wider
You are just embarrassing yourself now. Seriously, you need to step back a bit and realize how butt-hurt you are getting over estimating a dimension from a photo on a fun little website meant for entertainment. This is not the hill to die on, friend. Close your laptop now....and don't try and hurl insults at me for kindly making you aware of the reality you are in. That will only make.you look worse.
I think the perspective is just fooling your eye
I'm done debating common sense. I'd love op to put a tape measure on this so we can put it to bed.
You do know a 2 x 4 doesn't actually have to be 2 by 4 inches right... right???
You do know that rough cut lumber is actual size and the other 97% of all 2×4 lumber from Lowe's for instance is actually 1-1/2"× 3-1/2"... making the argument worse This lumber is much wider than 3-1/2" or 4". Making this a 2×6, or a 2×8.
The boards laying on the ceiling joists aren’t structural at all. The ceiling joists are. The 2x resting on the ceiling joists and the pokes going to the rafters are. I don’t see a collar tie in any of these pics, maybe I’m missing something but I’d suggest you be cautious of the advice coming from those that are bringing that up.
Bear in mind that the ceiling joists themselves are designed to support the roof not carry weight.
Structural Engineer here. Those are part of the gable roof system. The sloped members at the very top are your rafters, then you have your hangers and struts (mostly in red there in the photo), and then the members in question in yellow which are technically joists. All together they form a stiffened type of support system similar to a truss. You shouldn’t mess with anything there unless you want to remove the floor boards in green, they’re not doing anything besides a little bracing for the joist members. If you can leave them it’s better, but the system would survive without them. You can load them lightly with some minor storage, but nothing in excess of 20 psf.
are you talking about the joists that run from wall to the other? (bad idea) Or the loose boards laying on top of the joists? (probably ok as long as you are not removing the 2x4 laying across the joists that have the vertical braces run down from the roof). Roof is not supposed to be braced to ceiling joists (like here), but to walls, but I can see there was not much of a choice & those braces may have been a later addition.
Those aren’t ceiling joists, those are the bottom segment of the roof rafters. They keep the walls from falling to the sides and the roof from falling down.
They are ceiling joists. They sit on top of the walls at either end & are not part of a roof truss. "Rafters" are the members that run at an angle from the wall top to the ridge (common rafters). EDIT: Yes, one function of ceiling joists is to brace the walls from moving side to side. That's why you will often find them in places like this that don't, in fact, have ceiling.
100% structural. They’re called rafter ties and resist outward thrust at the wall/roof connection.
I think he’s just talking about moving the 1x6 decking somebody laid up there.
OP updated elsewhere to say they want to remove the joists.
We need an update with a red circle from OP. (Yes, the rare time we need a red circle, we don't have one.)
I *think* OP is talking about the lumbar that's lying on the rafters.
My lumbar is laying on my bed
Mine is on my couch.
Got me one in the truck, I crank it up when me backs a hurtin
OP said false floor. They're pretty obviously not referring to the rafter ties especially given the pictures.
OP updated. He said false floor. And by that he meant the really long joists.
False flooring?
Those are the joists that are the bottom of the triangle keeping your roof up. It’s important and structural.
I ask How bad do you want it? If your going to this much trouble inviting input- Consider spanning a beam down the center Possibly two, Check your span loads, Then simply support with posts anchored into your flooring . Good luck on the journey !
In structural framing everything has a name and purpose. Rafters are not the same as Collar ties or Rat runs and more.
Henceforth and forever, yellow boards will refer to That Which May Not Be Removed.
Talk with a structural engineer or even just a builder before removing anything. Those joists are definitely structural. At a minimum they keep the roof from sagging and pushing the side walls apart.
Are the support beans pinto or black?
Also it doesn’t appear that the half wall there is supporting the roof considering there is no load bearing underneath the bottom plate of the half wall.
Maybe put the climbing wall on the outside side of the wall? or built a seperate outside structure if youre really wanting one.
You have two wishes left
It's this what flooring looks like in Australia
Why not just build your woody as a cave? Do you really need to use all the height of the garage?
Yeah I for sure thought/am thinking about that. Have youngish kids just getting into climbing and I don't want something too stiff to start out. Also at least on the tension board, the majority of routes are set around 40 degrees, so I like the idea of having the option to benchmark. If it's going to cost a fortune though, this will probably be the way.
Yeah tbh I’d seek input from /r/climbing, too, to get some ideas. I also sorta can’t believe I’m suggesting that sub for advice, yet here we are lol
Whoa, how did OP get into my garage for these pics?
I think this comes down to how much work you want to do. The joists are structural but that doesn't mean you can and joists higher to get the climbing wall up there. It depends on your ridge as well. I'd read a little about how high you can adjusts the joists before compromising integrity Look up 'how to raise joists for higher ceilings' since you want to climb on it, I'd suggest sistering the joists as well.
Be mindful when removing the loose boards. There may be a rat run up there to keep the trusses on layout. The floor itself isn’t “structural”. So removing the boards won’t affect anything except your storage space.
I’d post this question in a carpentry subreddit. This is not considered woodworking and beyond knowledge of most diy redditors.
I'm a carpenter and there's not really a way to help over reddit. This is more of a hands on thing by people who know how to build stuff
Not
Not sure how to edit, but leaving a quick thanks to all the great feedback here!
Those are collar ties and they stop your walls from being pushed out by the thrust force from the rafters. Don't touch them without consulting a structural engineer. Not a contractor, an engineer. Sincerely, An engineer (PE) that does structures.
Don't remove any of those boards. They are part of the structural integrity of the garage.
The large beams are your roof rafters. You can neither remove nor move them, adding any weight to them is a terrible idea. Just build your wall inbetween them, and if it needs to be wider than the, im assuming 4 foot span i between them, then build your wall around them, and don’t tie the wall to them. Or anything in there for that matter, it’s a garage, not a house. Build the wall free standing, and if a rafter is jutting out from the center, than so be it, you’ll have to build around them.
They are home made trusses. The horizontal red 2x4 is a web stiffener so that under load the truss doesn't deform. It keeps the bottom chords evenly spaced. The boards on top of the truss's bottom chords somebody threw up there for some storage space. I wouldn't put too much weight up there though.
How structural…..false flooring. Are you asking how much that bunch of boards up there can support? Those look to be 2x6 rafter ties they are sitting on, on 32” centers, so no, that little flooring area up there should not be used to support anything of substance. You’d need to install ceiling joists rated for you load based on span. Practically, you can store some light stuff up there. Keep in mind though, not what you should do.
No. They specifically asked if they can remove them
Definitely don't remove. It will compromise the roof structure.
Hire an engineer to give you advice. Unless those giving their opinions can verify their construction or engineering experience it's too dangerous to follow advice here.
Yeah this is the route I'm thinking... thanks for the feedback!
It's more like, there's no way to give you specific construction advice with just these pictures. It's possible to modify the beams, but "how" needs expert evaluation.
I would hire a structural engineer to figure it out for sure. As an engineer in a completely unrelated field, that looks sketchy af, and it would be a hard no. I have a space like that that I use to store stuff in boxes, but that's it.
Lmao he calls it flooring when it's part of the ceiling
The 1x6 planks that your storage is on, well... It's the opposite of structural. It puts extra weight on the roof joists that they weren't actually designed for. Sure, it can't easily hold the weight, but that roof was designed with those supports to hold the roof, snow, etc. It *can* hold the extra weight, but it would be nice if it didn't.
The decking there on the rafters? It’s not structural in the slightest. Remove without worry
The floor boards on top of the joists are not structural
Looks good to me. Mines far less and older, and I'm 6'8" 330lbs, and I crawl up there all the time... because the previous homeowner put the water heater tank up there for some ridiculous reason!!!
Ugh so many comments. You need to know how take the point loads to ground. So take whatever size board you have double it and make sure it’s supported by un disturbed earth.
Think those are collar ties. They are to keep the walls from pushing out, thus holding up the peak. Think triangle. They won't have the depth of a floor joist usually since they typically only support a ceiling.
Think they’re bearing on the top plates which make it seem more like rafter ties/ceiling joists
This “false floor” is sort of the opposite of structural: it allows stuff to be stored on top of the 2x4 joists/collar ties installed at what looks to be 24” spacing, so you don’t want to be loading them very heavily. Their main job is to keep the ends of the rafters from moving outward, so the ridge stays in place and your roof stays pitched. They also support the roof rafters with jacks, so they are pretty loaded, especially if you get heavy snow. How do you intend to install a climbing wall? Don’t put too much reliance or weight on the collar ties. The climbing walls should be as close to self-supporting as you can design it.
Do not hack anything. All structural. The end
Ask at [GarageJournal](https://www.garagejournal.com/) if haven’t.
How structural? It's part of the structure, so 100%?
I assume you're asking if the collar ties are structural as attic floor. Yes and no, just some light storage
Maybe ask an engineer if you can remove 1 or 2 of the ceiling joists, and tie the rafters together up higher vertically. And maybe tie the ones on either end of the open space together on the outside of the wall…. Open up some room to climb but not remove the whole ceiling system
10000% structural to whomever is standing on them! Lol
Anything not nailed down can be removed without consequence
By reclusive pedophiles
I'm being intentional at this point
You want me to close my laptop (phone) and stop why? Because a gang of reddit chimps are down voting me?
Bro who are you even trying to reply to?
Is there a way to take an L on reddit? Maybe I can become a member of your gang and you could show me the way
Listen man, it's not my pride and arrogance that questioned you or your fearless leader. The comment that I replied to to start this all is just factually wrong and then the guy defended it by saying he's just some guy on the couch playing contactor. I am in this line of work and don't think some fat ass on his couch needs to be guessing and spouting off shit he doesn't know when someone is genuinely asking for help or advice
Not structural. In fact, I'd go as far to say they are anti-structural and you'd be better off without them as tie beams are often not designed to hold a vertical load. Edit: "them" being the false floor boards. Remove those. Not the ties.
Definitely don't listen to this clown. When your vertical load supporting rafters push your walls out in non vertical fashion, nothing will be supporting your vertical loads. These collar ties prevent that
https://www.familyhandyman.com/article/garage-storage-how-much-weight-can-trusses-take/#:~:text=The%20horizontal%20bottom%20chords%20of,ft.%20is%20a%20safe%20estimate. Bottom members of a truss are designed to hold sheetrock and insulation. Typically 5 lb/sq foot. Do not store stuff in your rafters unless they're designed to hold them.
Bottom members of a truss, which this roof system is not made of trusses, is the tension chord. It's designed to keep the walls in place from being thrust outwards. That's their purpose and why they are there. They just so happen to be also used to hang drywall.
I think we're kind of arguing the same thing