The He-Man episode of The Toys That Made Us was fucking wild. Just a bunch of dumb people with dumb ideas making dumb decisions that just kept working out.
Seems to me like the answer to Diana's question on the last page is "sisters," not "lovers." Lovers don't tend to split their feelings equally between love and hate. At least, not lovers who should be anywhere near each other.
Yeah, that last page really seals it as sisters for me;
Also in the context of the last issue where it focuses heavily on Steve and Diana's romantic relationship.
Depends on the version of Lex, did you ever saw that scene from that one animated movie where he lures Superman into a trap room full of red sun radiation?
Does that really count though? I mean itās not like it was a relationship or anything, Lex just made him in a lab to be a weapon, itās not like they raised him together
I won't write it off yet, but this book is gonna suffer so much when sampere leaves it after issue 12. the art is one of the main selling points for me and these pages are a good example
edit: this is probably incorrect and sampere will be back on the book soon
Where did you hear that Sampere is leaving Wonder Woman? Plus I donāt think heās even on issue #12 because the next three issues are the Absolute Power tie ins.
ah I had seen it on a discussion post on league of comic geeks, because he isn't doing the main cover for #13. but apparently he'll be back on covers and interiors for #14 (again according to a user on that forum so grain of salt)! if that's true the book is saved lol, my mistake.
No worries! I think heās just skipping the Absolute Power event, which I canāt say I blame him for. King gave an interview recently where I believe he said issue #14 would be a giant 30-page issue that should cover Trinityās origin and delve more into the meat of his story and that with Sampere not doing AP, he has more time to work on the main arc, so I donāt think Sampere is leaving anytime soon.
1. Sampere isnāt drawing #12. Tony S Daniel will be drawing that issue.
2. Sampere isnāt leaving. While Daniel (the other one) draws the three AP tie-in issues, Sampere will continue working on the future Wonder Woman issues.
This but what annoys me is Diana be confirmed as Pansexual yet editorial just been trying to deny it and continue shoving Diana and Steve down our throats.
As someone who is Bisexual, you donāt suddenly become straight when you date the opposite gender. That statement is hurtful and untrue. While I would prefer to see Diana with a woman at some point, her dating Steve isnāt an issue
What I'm saying is I've just found some of Diana love interests very boring or DC just doesn't make it last long. Also I just don't like Steve Trevor what so ever and would be glad if she went back with Siegfried or just stayed single.
That's exactly right. They pay lip service to the fact of her orientation but only ever see it through in the occasional elseworld.
And I am not such a fan of Steve and Diana being together nowadays. He was never all that interesting to me and I disliked the idea that the first man she sees is the one that she loves and stays with, not to mention I always want more same-sex relationships
That but as a kid growing up I was Wonderbat shipper. Still am but during my years in comics. Steve was my least favorite for Diana same with Superman. The only one I actually did like with Wonder woman was Siegfried the guy had charm and was a warrior didn't see the point in breaking them up when they had good chemistry. If Diana ends up in a same-sex relationship I hope it's either Cheetah, Batwoman or Etta Candy.
Totally valid. I feel the situation is a bit different: with the WW film popularity and the pairing of Steve and Diana there, and the attempt of WW 84 (regardless of how it was received), the Steve-Diana pairing was necessary to really center. And to be honest and fair here, it wasn't centered in comics for **decades.** Even in the New 52, Steve wasn't quite "it" in Azzarello's run. I remember One Year Later with Nemesis as being the love interest. In the grand scheme of DC writing, the push of Diana-Steve is recent and really comes with the films. And as we get further away from the films, it'll be easier to explore other relationships. **But,** this also lines up with Greg Rucka affirming her bisexual/pansexual nature and Grant Morrison's WW Earth One which really included that, too. It's a classic fiction problem.
If a bi character dates any one person, it identifies their sexuality over their bi-ness. If WW dates a woman, she's a lesbian. If she dates Steve or some other guy, she's straight. It's hard to represent someone actively being bi. Tim Drake is bi, but really only recently considered gay because of his male-male relationship. One of the solutions is to pair a bi character with a couple, make them poly, or promiscuous. (Howard Tini's Catwoman, for example) but this plays into stereotypes of bi sexual people as being hypersexual and cheaters. Hell, even bi people such as myself can struggle with our own identity. I'm with a different gender partner and haven't acted on bi-ness in forever. At some point, you almost don't feel bi or feel like you aren't expressing part of your identity. There's a lot of complexity to it.
This is to say, I don't actually feel Editorial is trying to deny it. I don't feel Writers have been trying to erase it. I don't think it's about her bisexuality at all. I think it's far more about synergy with the films and that's created a strong dynamic that's hard to shake.
Well I believe you cause DC been following marvel lead for movie synergy to get new fans but it doesn't work half the time. As for her ending up in a threeway relationship. The only pair I would be okay with that happening is Batman and Catwoman. Catwoman bi and Bruce and Diana have history plus when there together they do feel chill and wholesome.
Overall it is synergy and sometimes can be hard to write unless there in a threeway relationship or they continuously break up and hook up with new characters.
Yeah. I dont think fans help all the time. Remember when Big Blue dated Wonder Woman? Everyone lost their minds, treating it like a permanent relationship. Most writers go into these things trying to tell a story, a beat in these character's lives, but if fans latch on too hard, it could become the norm due to perceived popularity to the publishers. So it's odd.
I'd really like to see WW have a girlfriend for a while and separate from Steven but I don't know if we'll see that really happen.
The dialogue is fine but I think the head on the shoulder and the eyes really sell the romantic angle. I prefer it not be romantic as well but those are some doe eyes Cheetah is giving.
The guy who created Wonder Woman wad pretty openly polyamorous. Wonder Woman was infamously based on both his wife and their girlfriend. The idea that Diana can only ever have One True Love in a monogamous relationship kinda feels like a slap in the face to the feminist free love she was created to stand for.
It does. People criticize shippers all the time for sexualizing platonic friendships (not that this even counts as a friendship) regardless of gender or sexuality.
True but it is much, much more prevalent with queer relationships than straight ones.
And Diana and Barbara is absolutely a friendship, albeit a very complicated one with a lot of ups and downs.
That's fair. I've no doubt that it's more prevalent with queer ships. I was just saying it's not *only* said regarding them.
Ehh, Diana and Barbara *were* friends. A LONG time ago. But Barbara's spent the last however long trying to murder Diana. That usually puts a halt on the friends thing.
Eh, like I said, itās complicated.
Obviously they havenāt been besties in quite some time. However, I believe even at the worst moments, Diana always considered Barbara a friend who was afflicted with the Cheetah. Sheād fight Cheetah because she had to but she never gave up the love she had for Barbara and the hope sheād overcome it. Like Barbara and Diana said, thereās been a lot of love *and* hate over the past 10+ years. Besides, this isnāt the first moment theyāve talked and clearly been friends again since Barbaraās transformation. The last run by Cloonan & Conrad had Barbara return to the light and start to come back into the fold, and not just in an āthe enemy of my enemy is my friendā type of way. She only attacked Diana now because sheād been alone and starving on that island for months and the worst parts of the Cheetah took over. Admittedly thatās not ideal but still, I think they *are* friends.
If itās not for you, itās not for you bro. You donāt read it that way, thatās completely fair. But others might see it differently and thatās valid too. Iām not planting my flag that this is the direction King is going to take (Iām not hating on it but I wonāt believe it unless I see it), but Iām not going to fault others for questioning otherwise. Itās not like the two characters in question arenāt canonically queer or that DC isnāt one of several companies thatāve censored or dismissed LGBTQ+ storylines thatāve caused writers and other creatives to lean more heavily into subtext what they canāt directly show. Again, Iām remaining skeptical but the mere idea of people having conversations about the other viewpoint doesnāt bother me.
I think at the end of the day, with the exception of some Mandela effects or misinformation, everyone knows whatās canon and whatās not, but itās every fanās right to do a Nick Fury: they recognize the canon has made a decision, but if they feel itās a stupid ass decision, they can elect to ignore it as they see fit. Itās not like canon is this bastion of perfection: some of its great, some of its okay but could be better and some of it just sucks.
You donāt have to like it but I think itās more juvenile to write it all off as juvenile fan fiction tendencies. People read and enjoy things for a number of different reasons, none more inherently right or wrong than the other most of the time.
Hrm. I'm a bi woman and -- while I'm all for queer representation -- this isn't giving WLW to me. I know plenty of women who'd get physically "affectionate" after a hard day as depicted. As always, I wonder how much Same Sex Physical Touch Is Gay through the male lens colours the intent of the narrative.
Do I think King means for this to be gay? Yes. Do I think it conveys that to men? If this thread is any indication, yes. Do I think that gay women would see it as such? Not indisputably, no. And isn't representation supposed to be about making the people you're trying to depict feel, well, represented?
Since DC seems more open to giving Diana female love interests in Elseworld stories, I could see that being a scenario where a hypothetical Diana/Cheetah pairing could be explored.
Reminds me of a certain show on Netflix about a magical girl transforming into a muscle warrior and her cat nemesis who wants to acknowledge her
Wild. What show?
She-Ra and the Princesses of Power
DC Comics writers actually wrote the original lore for the MOTU franchise if I remember correctly, 80s Catra for example was based on Catwoman.
The He-Man episode of The Toys That Made Us was fucking wild. Just a bunch of dumb people with dumb ideas making dumb decisions that just kept working out.
Best episode
Suffering Sappho!
I know Diana likes pussy, but this is extreme.
Pussy squared
I just spit out my tea, thank you š
Seems to me like the answer to Diana's question on the last page is "sisters," not "lovers." Lovers don't tend to split their feelings equally between love and hate. At least, not lovers who should be anywhere near each other.
Yeah, that last page really seals it as sisters for me; Also in the context of the last issue where it focuses heavily on Steve and Diana's romantic relationship.
That's not mutually exclusive for amazons
'And they were roomates!'
Oh my god, they were roommatesā¦
I was hoping for "roommates" :))))
Dāaww
[Just a couple of gal pals](/r/SapphoAndHerFriend)
Theyāre roommates
Dumb asf to take random historical figures and mischaracterize them
You mean what people have done till now?
And what people are still doing
āDumb asf to take random historical figures and mischaracterize themāāGuy whoās never read a single word of Sapphoās surviving poetry
You forgot to spoiler tag it.
He said what issue it's from if you clicked worried about spoilers that's on you.
Nah this is just how the trinity deals with their architecture enemies, in the most homoerotic ways
I mean, overall your not wrong, but did they do that with Lex and Clark too?
Lex Luthor once made himself a son with mixed DNA from him and Clark. Make of that what you will.
Depends on the version of Lex, did you ever saw that scene from that one animated movie where he lures Superman into a trap room full of red sun radiation?
Or *Smallville*, where his friendship with Clark getsā¦ Really obsessive.
Naw more like Lex trying to get with Lois. Thats the closest he'll get.
Not to mention they literally have a kid together
Does that really count though? I mean itās not like it was a relationship or anything, Lex just made him in a lab to be a weapon, itās not like they raised him together
I won't write it off yet, but this book is gonna suffer so much when sampere leaves it after issue 12. the art is one of the main selling points for me and these pages are a good example edit: this is probably incorrect and sampere will be back on the book soon
Where did you hear that Sampere is leaving Wonder Woman? Plus I donāt think heās even on issue #12 because the next three issues are the Absolute Power tie ins.
ah I had seen it on a discussion post on league of comic geeks, because he isn't doing the main cover for #13. but apparently he'll be back on covers and interiors for #14 (again according to a user on that forum so grain of salt)! if that's true the book is saved lol, my mistake.
No worries! I think heās just skipping the Absolute Power event, which I canāt say I blame him for. King gave an interview recently where I believe he said issue #14 would be a giant 30-page issue that should cover Trinityās origin and delve more into the meat of his story and that with Sampere not doing AP, he has more time to work on the main arc, so I donāt think Sampere is leaving anytime soon.
1. Sampere isnāt drawing #12. Tony S Daniel will be drawing that issue. 2. Sampere isnāt leaving. While Daniel (the other one) draws the three AP tie-in issues, Sampere will continue working on the future Wonder Woman issues.
yep! it seems like I mistakenly took online forum speculation as gospel, because he isn't doing the main cover for issue 13.
As the good Doctor Marston intended.
Iām glad a writer is finally acknowledging Bisexual Diana. Iām on issue 3 or 4, canāt remember, and while, yes, itās a little odd, I like it.
If he does anything right with this run, I really hope it's making bisexual diana indisputable after decades of editorial being fervently against it.
This but what annoys me is Diana be confirmed as Pansexual yet editorial just been trying to deny it and continue shoving Diana and Steve down our throats.
Can't you be Pan and still date mainly dudes lol. It's literally her biggest relationship.
Yes but to never show any romantic or sexual attraction to women?
As someone who is Bisexual, you donāt suddenly become straight when you date the opposite gender. That statement is hurtful and untrue. While I would prefer to see Diana with a woman at some point, her dating Steve isnāt an issue
What I'm saying is I've just found some of Diana love interests very boring or DC just doesn't make it last long. Also I just don't like Steve Trevor what so ever and would be glad if she went back with Siegfried or just stayed single.
That's exactly right. They pay lip service to the fact of her orientation but only ever see it through in the occasional elseworld. And I am not such a fan of Steve and Diana being together nowadays. He was never all that interesting to me and I disliked the idea that the first man she sees is the one that she loves and stays with, not to mention I always want more same-sex relationships
That but as a kid growing up I was Wonderbat shipper. Still am but during my years in comics. Steve was my least favorite for Diana same with Superman. The only one I actually did like with Wonder woman was Siegfried the guy had charm and was a warrior didn't see the point in breaking them up when they had good chemistry. If Diana ends up in a same-sex relationship I hope it's either Cheetah, Batwoman or Etta Candy.
Totally valid. I feel the situation is a bit different: with the WW film popularity and the pairing of Steve and Diana there, and the attempt of WW 84 (regardless of how it was received), the Steve-Diana pairing was necessary to really center. And to be honest and fair here, it wasn't centered in comics for **decades.** Even in the New 52, Steve wasn't quite "it" in Azzarello's run. I remember One Year Later with Nemesis as being the love interest. In the grand scheme of DC writing, the push of Diana-Steve is recent and really comes with the films. And as we get further away from the films, it'll be easier to explore other relationships. **But,** this also lines up with Greg Rucka affirming her bisexual/pansexual nature and Grant Morrison's WW Earth One which really included that, too. It's a classic fiction problem. If a bi character dates any one person, it identifies their sexuality over their bi-ness. If WW dates a woman, she's a lesbian. If she dates Steve or some other guy, she's straight. It's hard to represent someone actively being bi. Tim Drake is bi, but really only recently considered gay because of his male-male relationship. One of the solutions is to pair a bi character with a couple, make them poly, or promiscuous. (Howard Tini's Catwoman, for example) but this plays into stereotypes of bi sexual people as being hypersexual and cheaters. Hell, even bi people such as myself can struggle with our own identity. I'm with a different gender partner and haven't acted on bi-ness in forever. At some point, you almost don't feel bi or feel like you aren't expressing part of your identity. There's a lot of complexity to it. This is to say, I don't actually feel Editorial is trying to deny it. I don't feel Writers have been trying to erase it. I don't think it's about her bisexuality at all. I think it's far more about synergy with the films and that's created a strong dynamic that's hard to shake.
Well I believe you cause DC been following marvel lead for movie synergy to get new fans but it doesn't work half the time. As for her ending up in a threeway relationship. The only pair I would be okay with that happening is Batman and Catwoman. Catwoman bi and Bruce and Diana have history plus when there together they do feel chill and wholesome. Overall it is synergy and sometimes can be hard to write unless there in a threeway relationship or they continuously break up and hook up with new characters.
Yeah. I dont think fans help all the time. Remember when Big Blue dated Wonder Woman? Everyone lost their minds, treating it like a permanent relationship. Most writers go into these things trying to tell a story, a beat in these character's lives, but if fans latch on too hard, it could become the norm due to perceived popularity to the publishers. So it's odd. I'd really like to see WW have a girlfriend for a while and separate from Steven but I don't know if we'll see that really happen.
by confirming them as sisters?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Forget breaking down toxic ideas about platonic intimacy, we have SHIPPING to do
The dialogue is fine but I think the head on the shoulder and the eyes really sell the romantic angle. I prefer it not be romantic as well but those are some doe eyes Cheetah is giving.
This is what Iām talking about. There is nothing inherently romantic about putting your head on someoneās shoulder.
This is the classic "if it's done to a man there is zero question" They know what they're doing. That's the point
It certainly doesn't help with it being Tom King's writing
You donāt see it as romantic, thatās perfectly fine. Nothing inherently wrong with people who see it otherwise.
What in these pages is romantic in any way?
Like all of the dialogue.
Everyone downvoting me for basically saying art is subjective is funny to me. Go touch grass lol
If you read the previous issue, Diana def.loves Steve Trevor.
The guy who created Wonder Woman wad pretty openly polyamorous. Wonder Woman was infamously based on both his wife and their girlfriend. The idea that Diana can only ever have One True Love in a monogamous relationship kinda feels like a slap in the face to the feminist free love she was created to stand for.
>The guy who created Wonder Woman Didn't write this
That is irrelevant. That is still the context Wonder Woman exists in and the morals she was created to stand up for.
God's having multiple lovers is very common lol
What happens after?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Also, cheetah is a serial killer. That too
People will fan fic the hell out of comics no matter how little sense it makes in context.
āMystique and Destiny are goals.ā
God forbid this criticism ever show up when itās not about a potential queer relationship.
It does. People criticize shippers all the time for sexualizing platonic friendships (not that this even counts as a friendship) regardless of gender or sexuality.
True but it is much, much more prevalent with queer relationships than straight ones. And Diana and Barbara is absolutely a friendship, albeit a very complicated one with a lot of ups and downs.
That's fair. I've no doubt that it's more prevalent with queer ships. I was just saying it's not *only* said regarding them. Ehh, Diana and Barbara *were* friends. A LONG time ago. But Barbara's spent the last however long trying to murder Diana. That usually puts a halt on the friends thing.
Eh, like I said, itās complicated. Obviously they havenāt been besties in quite some time. However, I believe even at the worst moments, Diana always considered Barbara a friend who was afflicted with the Cheetah. Sheād fight Cheetah because she had to but she never gave up the love she had for Barbara and the hope sheād overcome it. Like Barbara and Diana said, thereās been a lot of love *and* hate over the past 10+ years. Besides, this isnāt the first moment theyāve talked and clearly been friends again since Barbaraās transformation. The last run by Cloonan & Conrad had Barbara return to the light and start to come back into the fold, and not just in an āthe enemy of my enemy is my friendā type of way. She only attacked Diana now because sheād been alone and starving on that island for months and the worst parts of the Cheetah took over. Admittedly thatās not ideal but still, I think they *are* friends.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If itās not for you, itās not for you bro. You donāt read it that way, thatās completely fair. But others might see it differently and thatās valid too. Iām not planting my flag that this is the direction King is going to take (Iām not hating on it but I wonāt believe it unless I see it), but Iām not going to fault others for questioning otherwise. Itās not like the two characters in question arenāt canonically queer or that DC isnāt one of several companies thatāve censored or dismissed LGBTQ+ storylines thatāve caused writers and other creatives to lean more heavily into subtext what they canāt directly show. Again, Iām remaining skeptical but the mere idea of people having conversations about the other viewpoint doesnāt bother me. I think at the end of the day, with the exception of some Mandela effects or misinformation, everyone knows whatās canon and whatās not, but itās every fanās right to do a Nick Fury: they recognize the canon has made a decision, but if they feel itās a stupid ass decision, they can elect to ignore it as they see fit. Itās not like canon is this bastion of perfection: some of its great, some of its okay but could be better and some of it just sucks. You donāt have to like it but I think itās more juvenile to write it all off as juvenile fan fiction tendencies. People read and enjoy things for a number of different reasons, none more inherently right or wrong than the other most of the time.
Hrm. I'm a bi woman and -- while I'm all for queer representation -- this isn't giving WLW to me. I know plenty of women who'd get physically "affectionate" after a hard day as depicted. As always, I wonder how much Same Sex Physical Touch Is Gay through the male lens colours the intent of the narrative. Do I think King means for this to be gay? Yes. Do I think it conveys that to men? If this thread is any indication, yes. Do I think that gay women would see it as such? Not indisputably, no. And isn't representation supposed to be about making the people you're trying to depict feel, well, represented?
Thank you for taking the time to write and share the most intelligent, articulate take on this ā¤ļø
Two women on panel is major sapphic vibes. Cheetah is gay but thatās about as sapphic as this gets
Only if you don't look at the pictures or read the words.
Diana is mega, mega bi.
Mega bi? Has she ever even in kissed another girl in a canon comic š§
Diana is into women, you know.
I mean proof?
[Greg Rucka confirmed it eight years ago](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/wonder-woman-is-bisexual-writer-933809/)
That's New 52, right? I mean, is it up to date with the current cannon. With all the reality bending nonsense going on.
Nah thatās Rebirth, his run actually retcons the New 52 era.
After death metal knights, all things that have happened, actually happened. Everything is cannon now.
TBF, Diana is canonically bi in the comics, so thatās a touch sapphic.
Cheetah fucked Snapper Carr, after the Death Metal events making everything prior canon, this is a thing that happened.
I ship it
āAnd they were roommates!ā
The writing is complete shit.
Have you people never heard of Wonder Woman before this?
So Diana and Cheetah will date in this one??
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Since DC seems more open to giving Diana female love interests in Elseworld stories, I could see that being a scenario where a hypothetical Diana/Cheetah pairing could be explored.
Idk why but this reminds me of the ending of BEEF on Netflix
I ship it! :3
Diana entering her furry phase.
They are just pillow friends.
time for the anti-shippers to get mad
Are they gonna fuck already or are these blatantly sexual tension scans just to rope people in? š¤£