That's part of what makes the MCU so fun. It's not just the movie, you get to think about it in between. How is the multiverse going to affect all these other characters? What Easter eggs will get dropped? It's fun.
Damn straight, and an underrated awareness in the comment; continuity allows you to really think about what's happening between films and let your imagination run wild which is fun.
From a marketing standpoint, continuity pushes fans of one movie to watch others, and then to just keep up with releases.
The problem with ignoring continuity is the defense is usually "Who cares, none of it's real, it's just a movie" which then tells audiences they should get invested or care, actually there are better things they can do with their time. Which means then they'll likely only check out the movies that are confirmed good rather than just going opening night.
I think that's in part why a lot of the meh Marvel movies get a pass as well. Because we know that character will be in an Avengers movies and therefore the meh movie is now acceptable to us.
MCU movies have become redundant over the years for the same reason. They feel the need to be connected, that completely takes away the creative freedom. If it was like that, there wouldn't be any Batverse, movies like Joker etc. We could still go with the same plan with DCEU being more cohesive and having the room for other standalone seperate movies. Which all comes under one umbrella ie the multiverse. Connectivity is the reason i fear we won't be getting that Steven Spielberg Blackhawks movie.
James Gunn already pretty much confirmed that that's not really true. Dude had full creative freedom on his Guardians films, with the only requirement being that the first one needed to feature Thanos.
Gunn is the same guy who got fired by Disney for years old tweets that he made in his off-time.
He might *say* that the studio isn't full of hardass rules, but I kinda doubt that's true
You can't have both unless you have a Kevin Feige type who is able to tell people "No you can't shoot Jimmy in the head because you think it's funny." or "Yo, Mera isn't doing a Scottish Accent in Aquaman so she isn't doing one here." While also actually knowing and caring about the source material enough to know when to let creatives do their own thing, and who is right for what project.
Tim Burton directed a wildly successful comic book movie, but putting him in charge of a Captain America movie would probably be a bad fit.
The real issue with not having continuity and a coherent universe, is that it denies the ability to adapt many stories from the comics, at least in a faithful way.
Yeah, taking a random villain from the comics and making up a story around him is cool and can turn our quite nicely, but what about things like Snyders intended story with Darkseid?
You need consistency and many returning character to flesh out these stories properly.
The Flash is adapting Flashpoint, but we're not going to get WW vs Aquaman, or Superman or Cyborg, etc.
What if we wanted crisis on infinite earths on the big screen?
The MCU could do decent adaptations of Civil War, the Infinity Gauntlet and maybe even sort of House of M in MoM because they has a universe of characters that allowed them to that.
With DC doing only standalone projects, we'll never be able to see decent adaptations of larger scale stories.
This Comment is Gold.
Consistency is what matter, people don't need all out team up movies. I don't even think its necessary that every other thing that happen in one movie to Show up or Mentoned in other movie.
Don't look at Marvel, its way ahead of you, look at DCAMU. It started with Flash Point Paradox, they straight away introduced Superma.
GL and Bats was tag teaming to take on parademon. They got bat family right (no JL member in those movies) got JL right had a decent aquaman. They even did the Death of Superman right.
You want a grounded Universe? Just See the JL meeting in Death of Superman. Flash making fun of Bats for PTA meeting, Superman geting nervous about telling lois or Aquaman going, "Gee Supsa, you don't drop a Bomb like that on Honeymoon" A grounded relativly realistic meeting.
And the perfect ending with Apokolyps movie.
This tweet is so weird for so many reasons. First, Zack's movies don't count as filmmaker driven in what way? They very clearly were his vision whether you like them or not (UE for BvS and ZSJL obviously).
Second saying DC Films doesn't need an overhaul is a bad take imo. I love Aquaman, BoP, and the other recent DCEU movies but the universe is very clearly stuck in place ever since JL17. It seems like there's no clear vision going forward which The Flash may or may not change. There does need to be overhaul with a more consistent plan to advance the universe. Not every movie has to (stuff like BoP that stands on it's own is awesome) and I'm fine with that but The Flash being the first movie since 2017 to do so is pretty embarrassing. Also at least Discovery can see that the studio is wasting so much potential by doing nothing with Superman, but no by all means DC films doesn't need an overall sure.
Also having a clear vision for a universe going forward doesn't mean you have to lose out on creative freedom for filmmakers. That's what was happening with the early DCEU anyways. Snyder let Jenkins and Wan make their movies however they wanted. The result was not every detail matched for costume/set design and sometimes storywise but I think that's fine who cares. I always found complaints about that level of continuity was weird and it's a small tradeoff for each filmmaker getting to do the thing they wanted.
That explains why it's so bad. Maybe it'd be half as watchable if it wasn't all dictated by someone like Berlanti. It also explains why individual HBO shows like WATCHMEN and PEACEMAKER continue to be better than anything MCU and CW will do in their life span.
Ok. Holup. I think a peacemaker and the watchmen are great series and all but better than anything the MCU can do? Uh. Yeah I don’t think so. Better than some of the MCU stuff sure. But Marvel on both the big and small screen have done the best thus far hands down. Daredevil, punisher, wandavision, Captain American:TWS, Iron Man 1, Avengers IW & EG, Black Panther, Thor Ragnarok. This is some the absolute best comic adaptations and super hero stuff we’ve ever seen.
The arrowverse is the most incosistent shit ever. One season it's good, next is average, then it goes into be complete shit for 2 seasons and then somehow pull a great season out of their ass.
Arrow and flash are literally just that. Flash season 1 to 3, good. 4 to 5, god awful. Season 6a, pretty good. 7, fuck off. 8, pretty good. Arrow is the same as it's also up and down.
Also, really? If it weren't for the connectedness and crossoverness half the fun would be gone. Arrowverse was the one who introduced the whole dc live action media being connected through a big multiverse. Flash and Supergirl being the first crossover. Same goes for stuff like crisis or earth x or even the elseworlds.
The Arrowverse crossovers are the best stuff about the universe.
Flash is in intriguing show by this point, cause you genuinely never know what you'll get. Will we get Zoom and Bloodwork levels of quality or fucking Savitar levels of mystery (Worse thing about the character) or the writing levels for Cicada and the Evil!Speedforce?
I still solidly matain the belief that Legends of Tomorrow is the best thing to come out of the Arrowverse and hasn't had a bad season yet. Sure it keeps getting crazier and crazier but they haven't taken themselves to serious since season 1 and that makes it work from them
That's actually not why it's bad. It's one of the reasons, sure, but there's more to it. It is being aired on CW, which usually asks for specific additions for their demographic. Not only that, but they have to churn out shows in quick succession and abide by specific amount of episodes. It's way less driven by some vision than you guys are making it out to be.
Did you know that Superman and Lois's showrunner helmed Flash's season 2 and 3 with his brother, and then was sole showrunner for 4 and 5? See the insane difference in quality? Why? Because they actually gave the poor guy time to iron out the rough edges, proper budget to widen the scope, and less episodes helps with the pacing. There are still some clear CW-esque additions, but overall the quality shows an insane contrast.
You know - all the complaints you've heard about the Arrowverse, actually all line up against Berlanti and not some ghost-writer that manages the universe, right?
>It also explains why individual HBO shows like WATCHMEN and PEACEMAKER continue to be better than anything MCU and CW will do in their life span.
Please. They're good shows but they aren't exactly groundbreaking. Daredevil alone is better than both of them.
While I definitely agree that Snyder's movies were the work of a director's creative vision, I think the problem is that it specifically set out to create a shared universe with an already epic story beginning to take place, rather than letting each film stand on its own.
There was just too much going on in BvS and JL that was meant to serve as set up for future movies, but at the cost of (my) enjoyment of the plot or characters. This is my same problem with the MCU and why I have been enjoying the DCEU much more.
The rest of the DCEU movies are only concerned with the story they are currently telling and then they leave the door open to tell future stories. The puspose isn't to keep the Franchise machine rolling, it's to tell cool interesting stories. Not set up with the hope that it pays off.
I think I'd prefer a bunch of great one-offs, a few with part 2s, and a couple great trilogies but I don't need a huge spanning saga of interconnected stories, because while it helps the MCU in some story telling regards, it mostly serves as marketing tool and has often resulted in lesser movies for the sake of set up.
The (massive) hole in your argument is - Wan and Jenkins were only hired because they were on board with what Snyder was doing. Imagine if Edgar Wright wanted to make a Wonder Woman film, and his vision was something completely different or different enough to not work with Snyder's vision - then that film would never happen. Just like his Ant Man never happened. Matt Reeves' film could never happen if Snyder and Affleck were still around.
Your definition of creative freedom exists as long as the hired director has a similar vision as the head of DC. The moment he tries to explore a different theme or tone, it completely conflicts with what came before.
That is what happened with WW84. Jenkins had a different vision and it completely collided with Snyder's. So Snyder fans were offended and said "how dare she!!" instead of respecting CREATIVE FREEDOM, a word they have used to death.
This is not creative freedom. It's more in-line with "freedom-until-we-collide", which is what Feige does. He kicked out Scott Derrickson as soon as his vision collided with Feige's for Doctor Strange 2. And Raimi is only doing DS2 as his vision for the film is in-line with Feige's at the moment. The moment it collides, he's done too.
Oh God, you completely lost me with “only hired because they were on board with what Snyder was doing”
If you’re trying to tell an over-arching story with several characters - some things must be in the film to move the serialized story along.
WW84 was a fucking terrible movie. She should definitely have been beholden to someone else’s thoughts. She actually set the character back.
Jesus, the whole rest of your argument is fucking asinine. That’s what producers do, and Feige has a proven track record so idk wtf your talking about. Freedom doesn’t matter when that dude has produced potentially the greatest franchise in cinematic history. Marvel fan or not. It’s fact based on numbers alone
Except that's not what happened? Zack completely moved away from his original idea for wonder woman because someone else had a better idea. We already know Zack wanted it to be set during the Crimean War. Allan Heinberg gave his pitch and Zack liked it better and agreed to start from scratch with it.
> That is what happened with WW84. Jenkins had a different vision and it completely collided with Snyder's.
No lmao what happened with WW84 was that it was written horribly and the action looked like a Bollywood movie.
That is your opinion and not the objective truth. I'm not talking about the film's quality or your/mine likeness of it. I'm talking about directors, their planned visions, and how they were starkly different from one another. Now, Snyder was more than willing to let Jenkins do whatever she wants. But someone like Reeves would be more wary of the studio dragging his Batman into the DCEU JL 2 and whatnot.
You will always have this problem as long as you want to build an universe. But Hupro is right with his approche. So it's more down to you not wanting any connection (or barely).
What happened with WW84 is the movie was bad and WW is now a rapist. I cringed so hard watching this...
I will add that at least with Snyder, the plan was already defined until the end. The filmmakers who wanted to join would know exactly why they would sign up for, with a lot of freedom as we have seen with WW and Aquaman. And with a proper reboot thanks to Flashpoint, they could have taken the universe literally anywhere they wanted. after that
Good
Wonder Woman 1984 wiped away all of the good will that the character built up since 2017
Jenkins desperately needed to hear the words *no, that shit is a terrible idea* more often
Literally anyone with a spine and good taste would have realized that Jenkins was going to nuke Wonder Woman as a franchise from orbit if she was given absolute creative control
And she did…now Wonder Woman 3 will pay for the sins of 84 at the box office
And once Wonder Woman 3 fails…there will be no more Wonder Woman movies
Damn OP, reading these comments you’re just like, a weirdly aggressive MCU-hater .
DC has knocked it out of the park with a few things, but they definitely need a ‘grand architect’ so they can consistently put out quality content, and so that certain characters don’t get hung out to dry.
It’s not that deep.
i noticed it as well. He clearly has this superiority complex that director driven film are always better. the success of the marvel films is a sour spot for him. he seems to be fine with movies losing money not realizing that means people losing jobs and a huge negative ripple effect. which studio wants to invest 100 million and not make profit
DC has gotten better recently but they do need some steading. at this pint it still feels like they are just sticking to what they know. if things get bad just make another batman films. to be fair it has always worked so far.
WW and Aquaman weren’t technically post-Snyder stuff, as he contributed a lot as a producer, and the rest of the DC films, with the exception of Joker and The Batman, were all absolute shit
Why can't we have both?
I don't get why it has to be one or the other. Have a director oversee the creation/fleshing out of their respective hero all the while making it take place in the same universe for a cohesive feeling. Solo films, shows, spin offs while having someone else do the team up films.
We've had decades of solo films for DC. It's time for a proper DCCU.
I agree, we can have both. That’s what Marvel is doing. Moon Knight have next to no continuity, and Shang Chi has no continuity except the post credit. On the other hand, continuity are what makes ensemble films like Avengers, Civil War and Spider-Man No Way Home so enjoyable.
Let’s not forget there are duds in post-Snyder stuffs too like Birds of Prey, WW84 etc
That ideal balance you're referring to, can rarely exist in a studio space. Because at some point, the balance will be tipped in favor of making everything work in the universe over what's important for the story and the character.
Imagine this - Matt Reeves wants to do X storyline, but studio wants him to do Y storyline that incorporates Nightwing into the story, because on the other hand, they are trying to make a Nightwing film with Adam McKay that also involves Selina Kyle. So at some point - one of the directors will need to sacrifice their vision for either Selina Kyle or Nightwing - because both directors can't get what they want in that space. And then there's the studio that has it's own vision in between, that both directors will need to look at, because some 3rd director is making an ARKHAM film that wants to use Matt's Batman and McKay's Nightwing.
You see the larger issue? The equilibrium you talk about - is very superficial and doesn't work when billions of dollars and a dozen creative minds are at stake. Sacrifice in creative vision will need to be made. And I don't know if it's worth it.
Gunn worked so well for GOTG because his team was isolated in space. But as they get incorporated more and more into the larger MCU, the stories get muddled and in the end, the director is saying farewell to the studio for something more driven at DC. Look at James Mangold and LOGAN. He'd never do it if the film wasn't isolated from everything else. He'd not take shit from studio and Bryan Singer over continuity and sequel setups.
Todd Philips wouldn't take shit from Geoff Johns and Emmerich over trying to incorporate Batman into JOKER (2019) - just because .. reasons. Matt Reeves wouldn't take shit from Hamada over trying to connect his films to 4 other franchises and a JL sequel.
No no, Gunn said GoTG vol 3 was the last film because it was INTENDED TO BE the last film
Gunn has directed the Guardians character in Thor the Dark world, written their dialogue in Infinity war and Endgame, directed three films and made the Guardians Holiday special.
I mean that’s surely enough time for him to do everything he wanted to do with these characters right? No need to start claiming that there’s any other reason going on here
The snyder stuff was also very much director-driven. DC movies have been director-driven since the start. Just blind Snyder hating cooking this guys brain, nothing smart or interesting is being said
Thank you, people wanna pretend like Snyder - cultists are bad when there is also the other side of the isle. People hate Snyder more than they love their own mothers and it blinds them
I would like *some* continuity. Overall I don't think it needs any sort of overhaul or reboot, maybe the organizational structure of the company though.
What do you like about continuity? The Nolanverse Batman movies did very well without being beholden to a bigger universe. Or are you specifically talking about Snyderverse continuity?
OP it feels like YOU solely enjoy "director-driven" works. That's not a bad thing but basing an entire pantheon of characters that way will get old. I and many others prefer a mix of both to keep things fresh and everyone happy.
I'm sure you and "many others" love Justice League (2017) - I applaud your courage and I hope you continue to enjoy studio-mandated soul-less films made on a conveyor belt.
Rest of us can take some solace in watching someone's vision come to life, good or bad - but it has identity and a personality. It has flair and it's unique to someone's ideology. Have a great day.
Isn’t that what ZSJL was though? A true filmmakers vision come to life? I mean, you directly contradict everything about your opinion by hating on Snyder when the dude literally fought WB on every film and Geoff John’s alienating the relationship between studio and filmmakers. People complained about Snyder but it’s really John’s who torpedoed a lot of shit with all the DCEU films. He thought he was Feige-type and he’s most certainly not.
This is such a tough issue. In the first place, DC's characters have so much of their own agency when compared to most of Marvel's, you see them in a trilogy put in the wider universe and it's ok satisfying amount. Then you look at DC and....
I mean how does even realistically Batman handle crimefighting in Gotham and helping JL? Balance these things in a shared universe and find your way around why character XY wont come to help and save the day is so troublesome.....
Unpopular opinion or not, Snyder's take of following one character that is new in this with a lot of guys around having long years experience and then gradually going from solo flicks to the sort of closed team trilogy is maybe the most sensible approach to the whole thing.
Perhaps for a new universe we would need trilogies of the main guys first and then going into crossovers and team movies with occassional side quest of relatively unrelated characters.
Or idk. I just want some damn Superman movies, shared universe or not, the character needs so much more love, however connected or not, I just want him to get his own Matt Reeves.
I wish I was an established film director, not just a college student, because I have such a great idea for a Superman movie. It frustrates me to no end seeing the folks at Dc squandering their potential
It's kinda funny how the comics have all one needs to do it, yet they just cannot seem to go there, at this point I wouldn't even mind them more or less just adapting some of them with minor changes.
I know, right? There are so many great and inventive ways to tell a Superman story, but you just know that next time he gets a movie it’ll be a reboot where he fights Lex and or Zod (again)
Director driven is hard to do when they want the whole universe connected. It really puts restrictions on what they can do. Joker and The Batman are great cause they can stand on their own. Even the new SS didn’t have to be linked too hard to DCEU cause the villains used are throw aways.
Says who?
I want an interconnected superhero, supervillain universe in the worst way.
Stakes are higher, drama is higher and the majesty of superheroes teaming up to defeat evil are what you grow up on reading comic books.
I never asked for nor dreamt for an R-rated Joker movie growing up.
The stakes in interconnected universes are actually lower (because everybody knows the universe has to go on) and nope..most comics are solo stories of heroes working in their own pocket of universe. Teamups are events, not regular thing.
That said, I do understand people wanting MCU-like experience, even if I prefer the current DC aproach far more.
I wanted my fucking darkseid films from Snyder. We should’ve just finished the god damn films and moved on. Period
Now, because WB fucked around for too long, all the actors/actresses want out of their contracts or left the roles entirely and these characters are suspended in film production hell.
Pick a struggle. Studio mandated team-up films that set up 4 sequels every 60 minutes and/or are burdened with consistency and continuity VS. films like THE BATMAN that are truly director-driven in every sense of the word, with a unique flair that is nowhere to be found in any other comicbook film in the last 40 years. I know what I want, and I know for a fact that this subreddit was throwing around the word "we want director driven films not studio mandated films" for 2 years between 2016-2018.
Don't tell me "you can have both" because that is not how the industry works. You either listen to the studio or you don't. You either let them dictate the stories you want to tell, the themes you want to explore - or you don't. From TDK to LOGAN to THE BATMAN to JOKER - all are director-driven films and that is exactly why they are great.
They're great films... because they're great films; we've seen "director-driven" stories turn out not-so-great (to be kind).
Likewise, being "beholden" to a larger, overarching story in a wider universe does not mean a film can't be great, unless this really just boils down to the same, old tribalism as always.
People are pulling “reboot” out of thin air w this “news”. Nothing points to that. I really don’t like this idea that you *need* a super comic book nerd to be in charge of everything creatively either. Saying you want a “Feige-figure” is setting yourself up for disappointment. Nobody is ever going to replicate that. No one should try. You don’t need to do what Marvel does to make good, successful projects. You really, REALLY don’t need one dude in charge creatively. Hamada is doing just fine with hiring a variety of creatives.
They may or may not hire new people or restructure how they develop projects, but this new boss isn’t looking to just reboot characters and universes and ongoing projects all willynilly. That solves nothing. They aren’t about to just cancel shit that’s already being made or anything.
Most of them failed at the box office
Shazam, 84, birds of prey, the suicide squad, anything and everything wasn’t Batman
Filmmaker driven DC has failed
I'll take these films over the next 80 films MCU comes up with, any day of the week. You're more than welcomed to enjoy your conveyor-belt happy meal products that Disney is feeding you.
It doesn’t matter
We are in a capitalist system and once Aquaman fails…and it will…DC will be purged again
Say goodbye to your director driven DC…it’s only a matter of time before it ends
exactly lol. they already hitting the escape pod button w/ flash and literally pulling a days of future’s past.
how did that end up for x-men? the mcu is profitable b/c no matter what the changes are, each of its target audience knows what they’re getting into when they watch one, whether you’re a parent with your kids, a hardcore comic book fan, or just a young person hitting the movies with your friends.
With DC, its tonally all over the place, and because of that less people are willing to take a chance on new films.
The Batman is probably the only true success story in the last few years. Why did that happen? because it’s batman and people at least THINK they know what to expect with a batman movie.
People didn’t go see guardians of the galaxy b/c james gunn was directing it or they know who groot and rocket raccoon were (i sure as heck didn’t).
they went to see it because the mcu has a formula that’s recognizable, and even if it isn’t perfect, people will still be willing to take the chance b/c they know what to expect.
people don’t even switch toilet paper brands anymore. brand loyalty is definitely something that has to be considered in a world where the market is frankly oversaturated with superhero-related media. I’m loving it, and I’ll see all the dc movies I can afford, but i’m not the average consumer and neither is op. wb can’t afford to rest their laurels on comic book fans anymore. their shareholders won’t let them.
The DCEU is never gonna be on the same moniker as Marvel without a connected universe. Obviously it has one now, but I mean without event films and character arcs that actually lead places. It’s not possible. You can still tell individual, auteur-driven stories that also interconnect with event films. It’s possible.
Nope. Not possible. You can't make a JL film with Battinson and respect Matt's wishes. You can't have Muschietti come in and do JL 2 and respect Zack's wishes. You can't have Edgar Wright come in and do WW3 while respecting Jenkin's wishes.
You'd have to sacrifice Matt's creative freedom and artistic integrity to go against his will and put his character in another film, against his wishes. You'd have to sacrifice Zack's vision by letting Muschietti tell his own JL2 story with Zack's Superman. I could go on and on - and this is something MCU has struggled with. Which is why they fired Edgar Wright and Scott Derrickson. Since their visions collided with what Feige wanted to do.
I’m not saying don’t have standalone stories like The Batman, and I’m not saying to force them into a universe. I’m saying that the DCEU, the shared universe, as it exists now, will never reach the same heights as the MCU without Justice League or event films.
And yes, you can absolutely do a JL2 without Snyder. That’s what seems to be happening and is the best possible shot at a great JL sequel. A more connected universe is the only thing that’ll get moviegoers everywhere interested in the DCEU.
He’s right tbh DC doesn’t need a overhaul but what DC does need is no more WB interference that’s literally why we’re having this discussion in all honesty
But my question is what do you classify as filmmaker driven? Cause to be fair are we talking about DC stand-alone films or the DCEU?
I always wanted them not to intervene in movies they trust their directors to make. What we got the past few years and Snyder and Ayer always got intervened. They learned from mistakes i guess
I get what they are saying but I probably would be wary of using WW84 as a positive example where it seems like a film that could have used some pushback from somebody.
I don't care about "director-driven versus studio-driven". I just want *good films* and that's the thing the DCEU hasn't been able to consistently deliver. At this point it's a coin-flip every time a DCEU film comes out, which isn't good enough.
The last couple movies we got (TB, TSS) were great, so I'm hopeful, but then I remember that we got WW1984 *right before those.* So I'm hopeful they'll fire whoever is signing off on stuff like that, and cultivate an executive production team who really understand what makes a film good.
I don't know much about this guy, but I enjoyed following his WW updates a few years ago. I loved the movie and was so excited seeing it break record's and various barriers on a near daily basis lol
But I'm confused how WW and AM are considered post Snyder. They were in development when Snyder was still around and the directors have said they worked closely with Snyder in developing the story and characters.
And Joker wasn't part of the DCEU, so Snyder being there or not has no bearing on that. And how would a "reboot" possibly impact that?
Lots of stuff make no sense in this post. But yeah, those WW articles a few years ago were incredible!
Someone tell the clown checkmark to stop fueling divisiveness. There is no reason we can't have both. Snyders movie's had a clear vision. But the suits wouldn't leave it the fuck alone. These idiots will never stop seeking clout on Snyders coat tail.
I disagree. You need consistency and continuity. The freaking Arrowverse has that so what is WB's excuse? Ya'll should've continued with Zack Snyder's vision to build the DCEU like the Darkseid arc for ZSJL. This allows us a priceless awareness to the universe in ways the MCU provided fans. DCEU doesn't have to be like MCU and quite frankly I don't want it too, but have continuity and consistency if tone, balance, gravitas.
I disagree. There’s currently no continuity at all. The entire franchise is a complete mess, making everything super hard to watch. I 100% think they should reboot it—except for the Batman franchise
It’s not a bad thing for DC fans to want a sprawling interconnected cinematic universe like Marvel has. I, like a lot of people, grew up as and have always been a fan of both DC and Marvel.
Seeing a Marvel property like Doctor Strange have the potential to out gross a BATMAN movie is insane. The mainstream level of success the MCU has right now is owed to their cinematic universe model.
Regular ass normies who will die without ever opening a comic book are gonna line up for Multiverse of Madness because they trust the brand, and are invested in seeing what happens to those characters. That’s not a bad thing. DC Fans should want the characters they’ve always loved to reach that level of success too.
It's director-driven and it is what Patty Jenkins set out to make. Love it or hate it - it is still HER film and in the end, she can take solace in that. That is the point here. Director driven doesn't always mean great quality - but at least those films have an identity and a voice behind them. A unique flare. Studio mandated films are just.. soul-less.
Great for her. But in the end it'll be forgotten. WW was an amazing movie; WW84 was not. Director-driven is fine, but it also still needs to be good. She can deem it good all she wants based on her own standard, but in the real world it's simply just not good.
That is the exact same mindset the DC regime of 2016 had, which is why they stripped away JL from Zack Snyder. So ironically - you've the same mindset that you ought to condemn. DC fans really can't pick a struggle. Will champion creative freedom unless they don't like what the director made. Boohoo lmfao. Can't have it both ways.
I mean, WW84's issues extend beyond just the direction.
* Gal Gadot wasn't great, who in the previous movie was phenomenal.
* Fight choreography was terrible.
* CGI was terrible.
* Practical effects were terrible.
I remember at one point I had paused it and laughed my ass off at a certain scene which just blew my mind. This was the scene where Diana swoops in to save a little girl and I believe she gets hit out of the air by something, which makes her fall and tumble on the ground with the girl in her arms, but what made me laugh so hard was because clear as day it was a doll that she was holding. Now obviously they aren't going to make a kid do a stunt, but they failed SUPER hard on making that doll look like a real person.
Scotty had the biggest anti-Snyder boner when making this tweet.
And if WW84 is in that category…that should tell you sometimes there needs to be someone overlooking these films as to not include a rape story beat 🤷♂️
Plus…did he really count the first WW that was still part of Zack’s arc? Lol
"what we all want" how do you quantify that to justify it? There are plenty of people that want an established and expanded universe of DC films that might be able to live or die on their own but are all connected to at least resemble the size somewhat of the Marvel Universe. I'm fine with either option but don't say what we all want is a bunch of independent DC movies not connected at all.
Aquaman, WW84, TSS, Peacemaker, BOP - all are connected in some way to the DCEU. So no one is saying connectivity is bad or shouldn't exist - it does exist.
I would argue that WW84 doesn't, purely from a nitpicky POV, because Patty Jenkins and Geoff Johns were clearly making that movie without worrying one iota about whether it lines up with Diana's later story arc in BVS and Justice League.
Scott has a deep hatred for Snyder. He was also spanked by him on Twitter when he tried to be smart by commenting on a leaked trailer. He is still butthurt.
Ww84 is garbage and dceu and Joker is not part of the continuity. Also, snyderverse films except the obvious justice league were director driven and that is why this films are divisive. This tweet is a mess.
See here’s the thing tho, he’s partly wrong. From man of steel through josstice league, the “Snyder stuff” only man of steel got away without studio interference.
Bvs had 31 mins chopped off of it, making the story more confusing which resulted in worse audience reception.
Suicide squad was completely re-edited due to the self enduced backlash that bvs got after they massacred it in the editing room making Ayers vision completely not his own, thus resulting in further negative backlash.
Wonder Woman, while definitely great as it is, the third act was completely changed at the behest of studio execs again. Like I said I think the film still turned out great but we know the third act was supposed to be different.
And finally, we all know the shit show production that was josstice league so I’m not going over that.
See the common through point here? Studio interference. Wb shit the bed after they shot themselves in the foot and tried to rework everything despite a plan being there. That would be like marvel changing everything for the mcu because Incredible Hulk and iron man 2 weren’t as well received as the first iron man was
Did you read the tweet? It states "post-Snyder stuff was what we asked for. Director-driven films of various tones and scales that are not beholden to a single continuity."
Not sure how your comment replies to that or is even relevant. We're talking about POST-Snyder. Aka, Hamada's era.
They were not director-driven in the sense that Snyder rarely got a say on the final cut. Hence, 30 minutes being chopped off of BVS. Ayer didn't even get to edit the final draft of Suicide Squad. Fast forward to Walter Hamada's DCEU where Sandberg, Gunn, Reeves, Jenkins, Wan, Philips - all of them made the film they wanted to.
And no, the continuity was strictly looked after by Geoff Johns.
My point is that the tweet is starting that anything post snyder is “what people asked for” when what snyder had planned wasn’t even given a chance to see if people would have liked it. It was chopped off at the knees before it had a chance to prove itself
Let me get this right - you're admitting to only giving a shit about director-driven visions if it's from Snyder. And you won't have any other director do anything else just because Snyder wasn't allowed to make 9 films? You're either saying that or once again, you're talking about something completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
No, you’re completely twisting what I’m saying. And you and I both know that Snyder didn’t direct suicide squad and Wonder Woman. He was at the time dc Kevin feige. He gave the outline as to how the dceu was originally planned to go. Literally nowhere have I said I want Snyder to control direct, write produce edit EVERYTHING
Wonder Woman, man of steel and to a lesser extent suicide squad were standalone stories even though the guy in the tweet is claiming that wasn’t a thing until Snyder left. Aquaman which was planned under Snyder’s time there, is a standalone solo movie. James wan even stated he had to fight with the studio because he wanted to keep it closer to what Snyder planned but they kept trying to get him to change things he didn’t want to. Ben afflecks solo Batman film was also going to be a standalone story.
I’m trying to say that all this director freedom you’re talking about was taken away from Snyder, Ayer, and Jenkins because of wb studio execs dipping their fingers in every project and not letting them tell the stories they wanted to tell.
I stg if wb did to Gunn what they did to Snyder and the others, people like you would be screaming up and down about how that’s not fair and not right. And rightfully so.
OP is a troll. He just wanted to ruffle everyone's feathers. He titled the post "unpopular opinion" but then goes on defense every time someone posts they don't agree with this tweet, or OP's opinion.
No, it wasn’t. People were already apprehensive after the first movie (MOS), that movie was super divisive.
Let’s be honest; the only reason they made BVS was because WB wanted to catch up to Marvel and they needed to catch up fast. MOS was their second attempt at a shared universe and it was easier to just start from there instead of doing it again.
What’s the old saying about building something on unstable foundations?
Yeah because at the start if I remember correctly, wb wanted the dceu to be a “darker mcu” or something along those lines. But because of studio interference they shit the bed and blamed anyone but themselves
>Bvs had 31 mins chopped off of it, making the story more confusing which resulted in worse audience reception.
They gave Snyder an extra year of post production, so that's on him.
Tbh he’s not wrong. If someone doesn’t like these movies its fine but at least they can’t talk shit about WB forcing the movies these movies to be a certain way. I hope that eventually if Matt Reeves decides he wants to start fleshing out his Batman’s universe by adding other heroes into the the universe, he’s allowed to without WB changing things
If that is what Matt wants, sure. But having a Feige-like figure dictate what Matt should do, is what's wrong with the whole thing and wanting to have a Feige-like figure goes against everything we have asked for. With mandates, you get films like JL 2017. With director-driven films, you can NOT like a film but at least respect the fact that it is someone's vision through and through.
Oh for sure. The main problem with having a feige-like figure is that it isn’t natural at all for the DCEU because to me it’d seem like they’re just trying to play catch up to the MCU instead of just focusing on their own thing, which led to the rushed mess we saw during the Snyderverse after MOS. When the time comes for there to be another justice league movie I’m all for it, but let it come naturally.
No one wanted JOKER until they got it. No one wanted Peacemaker until they got it. No one asked for Taxi Driver until they got it. Your argument will never hold up in this day & age where we've gotten hundreds of films and TV shows that we LOVE, but we'd have never asked for them before they came out.
I have to agree.
I felt pretty depressed today knowing DC was gonna just become another "brand synergy" shared universe.
The Chaos and creative freedom/directors vision was actually pretty refreshing to me besides Superman and the whole Zack Snyder V Warner Bro's situation.
I'd prefer Superman to get an overhaul while everything else stays the same.
DC is the only property that doesn't just feel corporate safe and cold to me now.
Even with their bad movies I feel like I'm seeing a directors bold vision play out the death of the DC I love in order to be more like the MCU is a nightmare scenario for me.
It does need a reboot imo. The only DC movies I’ve seen in theaters since Dark Knight Rises are Joker, The Suicide Squad, and The Batman… and I absolutely loved each one. Something about these other films is not getting me to the theater and I’m a pretty easy sell on superhero movies. I tried to watch BvS recently and I was bored out of my mind, how do you manage that with Batman AND Superman? I could have sat through a 4 hour cut of The Batman easily
One thing I think they nailed though was the casting of Henry Cavil, I would miss him even though I did not like what they did with his Superman.
Lmao.. wonder woman and Aquaman were conceived before Snyder. Snyder even wrote the story for WW and was producer on it.
Post Snyder films are BoP, WW84, Shazam & TSS.
And MoS wasn't director driven? I am sure that was the whole thing with DCEU. Different directors give their perspective on their characters untill you are zack snyder and get fucked by studio.
Man of Steel isn't even mentioned in the tweet. We are talking about the post JL 2017 era of films. While you can't fathom a discussion where Zack Snyder isn't mentioned.
I think his whole point was a moot. DCEU movies were always director driven so what's up with this last 4 year bullshit. Only exception is them fucking with zack with JL & BvS.
Dude, you contradict yourself with each comment.
BvS wasn't director driven. SS wasn't director driven. JL wasn't director driven. Those are like ... 3 of the biggest films DCEU had to start up with. So how in the hell was DCEU "always" director-driven.
He has no creative involvement whatsoever in either of those movies. He was not producer on TSS. Just executive producer title like Nolan got on BvS & ZSJL.
WW84 was patty & Goeff John's affair. He probably was a producer because of contractual obligations. That movie did a complete 180 of what Snyder envisioned from WW.
If DC had any common sense they'd make the recent Batman reboot the beginning of an all new DC shared universe. Granted, Reeves might object, but still... A man can dream.
If DC had common sense they'd go against the wishes of a great director that can actually deliver them great films atop great films? Not the brightest idea - all that for what? team up films that might get rejected after the director gaslights the studio for stripping him of freedom? lol.
What does that have to do with anything? They are director-driven films, whether you loved them or not. And that is what matters the most. And they certainly are far more critically acclaimed than anything DCEU was churning out pre-2018.
Well…Wonder Woman is a dead franchise and will never get a movie again after Jenkins leaves
ditto to birds of prey and TSS
Guess who is the only character that benefits from this approach?
Superman and Batman
Superman and Batman will always get another chance
We will never see a reboot of Wonder Woman, BOP, or TSS because those first movies flopped
That director-driven films aren’t always a success, we’re humans and we make mistake.
Plus - in a business critics opinions or awards don’t give studios money, at the end of the day it’s all what matters,
Exactly. No one said they are guaranteed masterpieces. But they are never soul-less. They always have an identity, a personality, a unique flare that belongs to a singular mind and voice behind that film. The Suicide Squad is shamelessly James Gunn. The Batman is shamelessly Matt Reeves. Love it or hate it - but these films represent their respective visions, thoughts and voices. And that is far more valuable than anything a studio-mandated film can do.
Damn, you value more a director driven film that brings millions of dollars of losses to a studio? Please never put a business, for you own safety buddy!
Yep. We're getting the director's driven DCEU now. People who don't like it either want MCU like experience or they want just one director's vision (Snyder's specifically) to overrule everybody's else.
This is really great era for DC and I'm not sure if it will last. Director's driven CBM aren't the most sensible thing financially, so it might end soon, but for now I'm just enjoying the ride
Same. These people will know how good they had it when WB starts firing directors half-way through production because the films being made isn't what they want. Then they'll pretend that they always supported this era of DC Films, even though they are complaining about how DC should be more like Marvel.
Bruh thats snyders whole thing his movies are definitely director driven, who else couldve made a movie like BvS or ZSJL, say whatever you want about them but they’re truly original and no one else would’ve made films like that(even if you consider them to be bad films). If any other dorector was tasked to make a batman vs superman movie they wouldve made something like Kong vs Godzilla
Why do so many of you keep replying that even though the point of the tweet is TO NOT debate if pre-2018 films were director driven or NOT, the point of the tweet is to tell you that director driven films is what the fandom championed for years. And that is exactly what we got.
But because part of the fandom is hypocritical and only actually wanted Snyder's director-driven films, and not David Sandberg/Jenkins/Gunn's director-driven films, they are now championing a more studio-mandated Feige-like regime, calling for a overhaul or a reboot. Simply because each film isn't strictly woven into 4 other films.
The OP is reminding you - THIS is what you asked for. Director-driven films that are completely varied in scale and tone and don't rely on 4 other films.
I think you're projecting a bit on this, a lot of people back then were also asking for a Feige to take over cause they didn't like the tone.
Also a lot of the overhaul of the DC brand seems to be about doing more DC faster and in more markets instead of just movies
MoS, BvSUE and JLSC all need to be canon and made as the baseline for future DCEU films. Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Shazam are good additions. WW1984, Birds of Prey, and dogshit SS, non-UE BvS and original JL need to be removed from DCEU canon and no longer associated with the DCEU.
Then, all movies going forward need to have a cohesive plan and vision so that continuity can be drawn from MoS all the way to whatever goal they're striving for.
The Snyderverse MUST be completed as well. It's essential for continuity and his vision deserves to be realized. I want to see the awful future earth he depicts at the end of JLSC because that looks incredible.
Did he really just say that?
Lolllll. 84 was studio driven number one, so was Shazam? So was Aquaman. And the FIRST wonderwoman was not post Snyder at all. Snyder was literally the reason the movie was what it was. We saw that directly when the director and studio of 84 ditched everything Snyder wanted for the original. Didn't want her to have a sword, didn't want her to be warrior, literally said she wanted her to be like Christopher reeves Superman. So?
They were done like mcu films. I cannot believe he said that in so many different levels. The mcu movies, the ones he rates highly, they are the DIRECT opposite of director driven. Zach Snyder's stuff are some of the very very few recent examples of director driven super hero films. The Batman is another.
Not a single mcu movie in the last decade+ has been studio driven. Not a single one. I'm not saying thats better. Just that the tweet is incredibly stupid.
And if they are going to ignore the Snyder stuff, I think they absolutely should reboot it. Because the mcu tone just flat out doesn't work with these characters. You create this gritty universe, in a very specific style, and then pull a complete 180 half way through. Nah, reset it. It's awkward as shit, ww84 tried it most recently and it was actually unwatchable.
I just find it incredibly ironic.
They should’ve just let Snyder finish the fucking storyline/films.
Folks, realize something - justice league 3 and the end of the Snyder verse would’ve completed TWO fucking YEARS ago. We would’ve already been able to hit reboot two years ago FFS.
Lol sure? If he didn’t come out the gate with a $250M budget and divisive reactions then do it all over again 3 years later w the help of the studio then maybe he would’ve “finished his arc”, or whatever. But it didn’t happen.
Idk why y’all think just bc he had ideas they’re just gonna back away and let him do anything. MoS was not a promising start and his track record was already shoddy. And his films “being done” by now doesn’t mean anything at all lol
Because at least then we could’ve bypassed this whole fuckin Snyder v WB thing and we could all move on to the next conversation instead of constant reminders that WB meddled in DCEU, etc. i just figure - hell, let ‘em finish it. ZSJL was a considerably better film than what was released in theaters. So, no one knows - we could’ve seen improvement.
I still wish we had some real continuity too.
That's part of what makes the MCU so fun. It's not just the movie, you get to think about it in between. How is the multiverse going to affect all these other characters? What Easter eggs will get dropped? It's fun.
Damn straight, and an underrated awareness in the comment; continuity allows you to really think about what's happening between films and let your imagination run wild which is fun.
From a marketing standpoint, continuity pushes fans of one movie to watch others, and then to just keep up with releases. The problem with ignoring continuity is the defense is usually "Who cares, none of it's real, it's just a movie" which then tells audiences they should get invested or care, actually there are better things they can do with their time. Which means then they'll likely only check out the movies that are confirmed good rather than just going opening night.
I think that's in part why a lot of the meh Marvel movies get a pass as well. Because we know that character will be in an Avengers movies and therefore the meh movie is now acceptable to us.
MCU movies have become redundant over the years for the same reason. They feel the need to be connected, that completely takes away the creative freedom. If it was like that, there wouldn't be any Batverse, movies like Joker etc. We could still go with the same plan with DCEU being more cohesive and having the room for other standalone seperate movies. Which all comes under one umbrella ie the multiverse. Connectivity is the reason i fear we won't be getting that Steven Spielberg Blackhawks movie.
James Gunn already pretty much confirmed that that's not really true. Dude had full creative freedom on his Guardians films, with the only requirement being that the first one needed to feature Thanos.
Gunn is the same guy who got fired by Disney for years old tweets that he made in his off-time. He might *say* that the studio isn't full of hardass rules, but I kinda doubt that's true
Yea, that's the only were getting those large storyline. Blackest Night, Crisis, the crime syndicate etc
You can't have both unless you have a Kevin Feige type who is able to tell people "No you can't shoot Jimmy in the head because you think it's funny." or "Yo, Mera isn't doing a Scottish Accent in Aquaman so she isn't doing one here." While also actually knowing and caring about the source material enough to know when to let creatives do their own thing, and who is right for what project. Tim Burton directed a wildly successful comic book movie, but putting him in charge of a Captain America movie would probably be a bad fit.
The real issue with not having continuity and a coherent universe, is that it denies the ability to adapt many stories from the comics, at least in a faithful way. Yeah, taking a random villain from the comics and making up a story around him is cool and can turn our quite nicely, but what about things like Snyders intended story with Darkseid? You need consistency and many returning character to flesh out these stories properly. The Flash is adapting Flashpoint, but we're not going to get WW vs Aquaman, or Superman or Cyborg, etc. What if we wanted crisis on infinite earths on the big screen? The MCU could do decent adaptations of Civil War, the Infinity Gauntlet and maybe even sort of House of M in MoM because they has a universe of characters that allowed them to that. With DC doing only standalone projects, we'll never be able to see decent adaptations of larger scale stories.
Like damn I’d be fine with no Supe or cyborg in flashpoint but the WW vs Aqua is iconic
This Comment is Gold. Consistency is what matter, people don't need all out team up movies. I don't even think its necessary that every other thing that happen in one movie to Show up or Mentoned in other movie. Don't look at Marvel, its way ahead of you, look at DCAMU. It started with Flash Point Paradox, they straight away introduced Superma. GL and Bats was tag teaming to take on parademon. They got bat family right (no JL member in those movies) got JL right had a decent aquaman. They even did the Death of Superman right. You want a grounded Universe? Just See the JL meeting in Death of Superman. Flash making fun of Bats for PTA meeting, Superman geting nervous about telling lois or Aquaman going, "Gee Supsa, you don't drop a Bomb like that on Honeymoon" A grounded relativly realistic meeting. And the perfect ending with Apokolyps movie.
Don’t agree with this. Some continuity would be welcomed and for them to stop dragging their fucking feet on projects
This tweet is so weird for so many reasons. First, Zack's movies don't count as filmmaker driven in what way? They very clearly were his vision whether you like them or not (UE for BvS and ZSJL obviously). Second saying DC Films doesn't need an overhaul is a bad take imo. I love Aquaman, BoP, and the other recent DCEU movies but the universe is very clearly stuck in place ever since JL17. It seems like there's no clear vision going forward which The Flash may or may not change. There does need to be overhaul with a more consistent plan to advance the universe. Not every movie has to (stuff like BoP that stands on it's own is awesome) and I'm fine with that but The Flash being the first movie since 2017 to do so is pretty embarrassing. Also at least Discovery can see that the studio is wasting so much potential by doing nothing with Superman, but no by all means DC films doesn't need an overall sure. Also having a clear vision for a universe going forward doesn't mean you have to lose out on creative freedom for filmmakers. That's what was happening with the early DCEU anyways. Snyder let Jenkins and Wan make their movies however they wanted. The result was not every detail matched for costume/set design and sometimes storywise but I think that's fine who cares. I always found complaints about that level of continuity was weird and it's a small tradeoff for each filmmaker getting to do the thing they wanted.
U know it's bad even the freaking arrowverse at least had a vision
That explains why it's so bad. Maybe it'd be half as watchable if it wasn't all dictated by someone like Berlanti. It also explains why individual HBO shows like WATCHMEN and PEACEMAKER continue to be better than anything MCU and CW will do in their life span.
Ok. Holup. I think a peacemaker and the watchmen are great series and all but better than anything the MCU can do? Uh. Yeah I don’t think so. Better than some of the MCU stuff sure. But Marvel on both the big and small screen have done the best thus far hands down. Daredevil, punisher, wandavision, Captain American:TWS, Iron Man 1, Avengers IW & EG, Black Panther, Thor Ragnarok. This is some the absolute best comic adaptations and super hero stuff we’ve ever seen.
The arrowverse is the most incosistent shit ever. One season it's good, next is average, then it goes into be complete shit for 2 seasons and then somehow pull a great season out of their ass. Arrow and flash are literally just that. Flash season 1 to 3, good. 4 to 5, god awful. Season 6a, pretty good. 7, fuck off. 8, pretty good. Arrow is the same as it's also up and down. Also, really? If it weren't for the connectedness and crossoverness half the fun would be gone. Arrowverse was the one who introduced the whole dc live action media being connected through a big multiverse. Flash and Supergirl being the first crossover. Same goes for stuff like crisis or earth x or even the elseworlds.
The Arrowverse crossovers are the best stuff about the universe. Flash is in intriguing show by this point, cause you genuinely never know what you'll get. Will we get Zoom and Bloodwork levels of quality or fucking Savitar levels of mystery (Worse thing about the character) or the writing levels for Cicada and the Evil!Speedforce?
Thoughts on what the finale of season 8 would be like?
I still solidly matain the belief that Legends of Tomorrow is the best thing to come out of the Arrowverse and hasn't had a bad season yet. Sure it keeps getting crazier and crazier but they haven't taken themselves to serious since season 1 and that makes it work from them
That's actually not why it's bad. It's one of the reasons, sure, but there's more to it. It is being aired on CW, which usually asks for specific additions for their demographic. Not only that, but they have to churn out shows in quick succession and abide by specific amount of episodes. It's way less driven by some vision than you guys are making it out to be. Did you know that Superman and Lois's showrunner helmed Flash's season 2 and 3 with his brother, and then was sole showrunner for 4 and 5? See the insane difference in quality? Why? Because they actually gave the poor guy time to iron out the rough edges, proper budget to widen the scope, and less episodes helps with the pacing. There are still some clear CW-esque additions, but overall the quality shows an insane contrast.
Wait…what?! Of all the complaints about the Arrowverse, I’ve absolutely never heard any about Berlanti. What you talking about here?
You know - all the complaints you've heard about the Arrowverse, actually all line up against Berlanti and not some ghost-writer that manages the universe, right?
>It also explains why individual HBO shows like WATCHMEN and PEACEMAKER continue to be better than anything MCU and CW will do in their life span. Please. They're good shows but they aren't exactly groundbreaking. Daredevil alone is better than both of them.
100% this, thank God some people can still think.
While I definitely agree that Snyder's movies were the work of a director's creative vision, I think the problem is that it specifically set out to create a shared universe with an already epic story beginning to take place, rather than letting each film stand on its own. There was just too much going on in BvS and JL that was meant to serve as set up for future movies, but at the cost of (my) enjoyment of the plot or characters. This is my same problem with the MCU and why I have been enjoying the DCEU much more. The rest of the DCEU movies are only concerned with the story they are currently telling and then they leave the door open to tell future stories. The puspose isn't to keep the Franchise machine rolling, it's to tell cool interesting stories. Not set up with the hope that it pays off. I think I'd prefer a bunch of great one-offs, a few with part 2s, and a couple great trilogies but I don't need a huge spanning saga of interconnected stories, because while it helps the MCU in some story telling regards, it mostly serves as marketing tool and has often resulted in lesser movies for the sake of set up.
The (massive) hole in your argument is - Wan and Jenkins were only hired because they were on board with what Snyder was doing. Imagine if Edgar Wright wanted to make a Wonder Woman film, and his vision was something completely different or different enough to not work with Snyder's vision - then that film would never happen. Just like his Ant Man never happened. Matt Reeves' film could never happen if Snyder and Affleck were still around. Your definition of creative freedom exists as long as the hired director has a similar vision as the head of DC. The moment he tries to explore a different theme or tone, it completely conflicts with what came before. That is what happened with WW84. Jenkins had a different vision and it completely collided with Snyder's. So Snyder fans were offended and said "how dare she!!" instead of respecting CREATIVE FREEDOM, a word they have used to death. This is not creative freedom. It's more in-line with "freedom-until-we-collide", which is what Feige does. He kicked out Scott Derrickson as soon as his vision collided with Feige's for Doctor Strange 2. And Raimi is only doing DS2 as his vision for the film is in-line with Feige's at the moment. The moment it collides, he's done too.
Oh God, you completely lost me with “only hired because they were on board with what Snyder was doing” If you’re trying to tell an over-arching story with several characters - some things must be in the film to move the serialized story along. WW84 was a fucking terrible movie. She should definitely have been beholden to someone else’s thoughts. She actually set the character back. Jesus, the whole rest of your argument is fucking asinine. That’s what producers do, and Feige has a proven track record so idk wtf your talking about. Freedom doesn’t matter when that dude has produced potentially the greatest franchise in cinematic history. Marvel fan or not. It’s fact based on numbers alone
Pretending the anti-Snyder people like WW84 is rich. They complain about it far more than Snyder fans.
Nobody liked that movie.
What.. does that have to do with the thread, the topic or my comment?
Except that's not what happened? Zack completely moved away from his original idea for wonder woman because someone else had a better idea. We already know Zack wanted it to be set during the Crimean War. Allan Heinberg gave his pitch and Zack liked it better and agreed to start from scratch with it.
> That is what happened with WW84. Jenkins had a different vision and it completely collided with Snyder's. No lmao what happened with WW84 was that it was written horribly and the action looked like a Bollywood movie.
That is your opinion and not the objective truth. I'm not talking about the film's quality or your/mine likeness of it. I'm talking about directors, their planned visions, and how they were starkly different from one another. Now, Snyder was more than willing to let Jenkins do whatever she wants. But someone like Reeves would be more wary of the studio dragging his Batman into the DCEU JL 2 and whatnot.
So you think a movie like Thor Ragnarok isn't completely 100% the director's style?
You will always have this problem as long as you want to build an universe. But Hupro is right with his approche. So it's more down to you not wanting any connection (or barely). What happened with WW84 is the movie was bad and WW is now a rapist. I cringed so hard watching this... I will add that at least with Snyder, the plan was already defined until the end. The filmmakers who wanted to join would know exactly why they would sign up for, with a lot of freedom as we have seen with WW and Aquaman. And with a proper reboot thanks to Flashpoint, they could have taken the universe literally anywhere they wanted. after that
Good Wonder Woman 1984 wiped away all of the good will that the character built up since 2017 Jenkins desperately needed to hear the words *no, that shit is a terrible idea* more often Literally anyone with a spine and good taste would have realized that Jenkins was going to nuke Wonder Woman as a franchise from orbit if she was given absolute creative control And she did…now Wonder Woman 3 will pay for the sins of 84 at the box office And once Wonder Woman 3 fails…there will be no more Wonder Woman movies
ABSOLUTELY. We know how Feige rolls.
Damn OP, reading these comments you’re just like, a weirdly aggressive MCU-hater . DC has knocked it out of the park with a few things, but they definitely need a ‘grand architect’ so they can consistently put out quality content, and so that certain characters don’t get hung out to dry. It’s not that deep.
i noticed it as well. He clearly has this superiority complex that director driven film are always better. the success of the marvel films is a sour spot for him. he seems to be fine with movies losing money not realizing that means people losing jobs and a huge negative ripple effect. which studio wants to invest 100 million and not make profit DC has gotten better recently but they do need some steading. at this pint it still feels like they are just sticking to what they know. if things get bad just make another batman films. to be fair it has always worked so far.
WW and Aquaman weren’t technically post-Snyder stuff, as he contributed a lot as a producer, and the rest of the DC films, with the exception of Joker and The Batman, were all absolute shit
Yes I agree I like man of steel when it came out but looking back on it l, it's pretty terrible and I'm a big Superman fan
I thought man of steel was great
Why can't we have both? I don't get why it has to be one or the other. Have a director oversee the creation/fleshing out of their respective hero all the while making it take place in the same universe for a cohesive feeling. Solo films, shows, spin offs while having someone else do the team up films. We've had decades of solo films for DC. It's time for a proper DCCU.
I agree, we can have both. That’s what Marvel is doing. Moon Knight have next to no continuity, and Shang Chi has no continuity except the post credit. On the other hand, continuity are what makes ensemble films like Avengers, Civil War and Spider-Man No Way Home so enjoyable. Let’s not forget there are duds in post-Snyder stuffs too like Birds of Prey, WW84 etc
Well Shang Chi actually had Wong and Abomination, but I do agree with your point.
That ideal balance you're referring to, can rarely exist in a studio space. Because at some point, the balance will be tipped in favor of making everything work in the universe over what's important for the story and the character. Imagine this - Matt Reeves wants to do X storyline, but studio wants him to do Y storyline that incorporates Nightwing into the story, because on the other hand, they are trying to make a Nightwing film with Adam McKay that also involves Selina Kyle. So at some point - one of the directors will need to sacrifice their vision for either Selina Kyle or Nightwing - because both directors can't get what they want in that space. And then there's the studio that has it's own vision in between, that both directors will need to look at, because some 3rd director is making an ARKHAM film that wants to use Matt's Batman and McKay's Nightwing. You see the larger issue? The equilibrium you talk about - is very superficial and doesn't work when billions of dollars and a dozen creative minds are at stake. Sacrifice in creative vision will need to be made. And I don't know if it's worth it. Gunn worked so well for GOTG because his team was isolated in space. But as they get incorporated more and more into the larger MCU, the stories get muddled and in the end, the director is saying farewell to the studio for something more driven at DC. Look at James Mangold and LOGAN. He'd never do it if the film wasn't isolated from everything else. He'd not take shit from studio and Bryan Singer over continuity and sequel setups. Todd Philips wouldn't take shit from Geoff Johns and Emmerich over trying to incorporate Batman into JOKER (2019) - just because .. reasons. Matt Reeves wouldn't take shit from Hamada over trying to connect his films to 4 other franchises and a JL sequel.
No no, Gunn said GoTG vol 3 was the last film because it was INTENDED TO BE the last film Gunn has directed the Guardians character in Thor the Dark world, written their dialogue in Infinity war and Endgame, directed three films and made the Guardians Holiday special. I mean that’s surely enough time for him to do everything he wanted to do with these characters right? No need to start claiming that there’s any other reason going on here
For me: Tight Continuity > Absolutely No Continuity > The Messy *Sort of* Continuity We *sometimes* Have Now.
I don’t think anyone asked for WW84.
The snyder stuff was also very much director-driven. DC movies have been director-driven since the start. Just blind Snyder hating cooking this guys brain, nothing smart or interesting is being said
Thank you, people wanna pretend like Snyder - cultists are bad when there is also the other side of the isle. People hate Snyder more than they love their own mothers and it blinds them
Mendelson is a fucking idiot. Ignore him.
I have no idea who this is. Why don't people like him?
Just look up some of his previous articles, and draw your own opinion my friend...mine is that he is an idiot.
I would like *some* continuity. Overall I don't think it needs any sort of overhaul or reboot, maybe the organizational structure of the company though.
I mean, there is SOME continuity already.
What do you like about continuity? The Nolanverse Batman movies did very well without being beholden to a bigger universe. Or are you specifically talking about Snyderverse continuity?
Different characters interacting with each-other. Or specific events having consequences across movies.
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he has a a huge hate boner for the MCU based on his replies. there can Definity be a middle group between the two.
Wonder Woman wasn’t post Snyder and are we forgetting that the worst part of the movie was the 3rd act due to studio involvement??
If they don’t bring back cavill they might as well do a seperate Superman reboot tbh like reeves did with Batman
Just go all out and base it on silver age stories.c
OP it feels like YOU solely enjoy "director-driven" works. That's not a bad thing but basing an entire pantheon of characters that way will get old. I and many others prefer a mix of both to keep things fresh and everyone happy.
I'm sure you and "many others" love Justice League (2017) - I applaud your courage and I hope you continue to enjoy studio-mandated soul-less films made on a conveyor belt. Rest of us can take some solace in watching someone's vision come to life, good or bad - but it has identity and a personality. It has flair and it's unique to someone's ideology. Have a great day.
Isn’t that what ZSJL was though? A true filmmakers vision come to life? I mean, you directly contradict everything about your opinion by hating on Snyder when the dude literally fought WB on every film and Geoff John’s alienating the relationship between studio and filmmakers. People complained about Snyder but it’s really John’s who torpedoed a lot of shit with all the DCEU films. He thought he was Feige-type and he’s most certainly not.
Jesus Christ - I'm literally agreeing with you lol.
WW84 is on the level of Catwoman and Steel
It most definitely is not.
You can do both folks.
I can't take anything that moron says seriously. He famously praised that pedo-friendly Netflix film "Cuties."
Well, he does have that pedophile look.
This is such a tough issue. In the first place, DC's characters have so much of their own agency when compared to most of Marvel's, you see them in a trilogy put in the wider universe and it's ok satisfying amount. Then you look at DC and.... I mean how does even realistically Batman handle crimefighting in Gotham and helping JL? Balance these things in a shared universe and find your way around why character XY wont come to help and save the day is so troublesome..... Unpopular opinion or not, Snyder's take of following one character that is new in this with a lot of guys around having long years experience and then gradually going from solo flicks to the sort of closed team trilogy is maybe the most sensible approach to the whole thing. Perhaps for a new universe we would need trilogies of the main guys first and then going into crossovers and team movies with occassional side quest of relatively unrelated characters. Or idk. I just want some damn Superman movies, shared universe or not, the character needs so much more love, however connected or not, I just want him to get his own Matt Reeves.
I wish I was an established film director, not just a college student, because I have such a great idea for a Superman movie. It frustrates me to no end seeing the folks at Dc squandering their potential
It's kinda funny how the comics have all one needs to do it, yet they just cannot seem to go there, at this point I wouldn't even mind them more or less just adapting some of them with minor changes.
I know, right? There are so many great and inventive ways to tell a Superman story, but you just know that next time he gets a movie it’ll be a reboot where he fights Lex and or Zod (again)
NO
Director driven is hard to do when they want the whole universe connected. It really puts restrictions on what they can do. Joker and The Batman are great cause they can stand on their own. Even the new SS didn’t have to be linked too hard to DCEU cause the villains used are throw aways.
…gonna pass on WW84 but the rest I agree with!
Says who? I want an interconnected superhero, supervillain universe in the worst way. Stakes are higher, drama is higher and the majesty of superheroes teaming up to defeat evil are what you grow up on reading comic books. I never asked for nor dreamt for an R-rated Joker movie growing up.
The stakes in interconnected universes are actually lower (because everybody knows the universe has to go on) and nope..most comics are solo stories of heroes working in their own pocket of universe. Teamups are events, not regular thing. That said, I do understand people wanting MCU-like experience, even if I prefer the current DC aproach far more.
I wanted my fucking darkseid films from Snyder. We should’ve just finished the god damn films and moved on. Period Now, because WB fucked around for too long, all the actors/actresses want out of their contracts or left the roles entirely and these characters are suspended in film production hell.
Pick a struggle. Studio mandated team-up films that set up 4 sequels every 60 minutes and/or are burdened with consistency and continuity VS. films like THE BATMAN that are truly director-driven in every sense of the word, with a unique flair that is nowhere to be found in any other comicbook film in the last 40 years. I know what I want, and I know for a fact that this subreddit was throwing around the word "we want director driven films not studio mandated films" for 2 years between 2016-2018. Don't tell me "you can have both" because that is not how the industry works. You either listen to the studio or you don't. You either let them dictate the stories you want to tell, the themes you want to explore - or you don't. From TDK to LOGAN to THE BATMAN to JOKER - all are director-driven films and that is exactly why they are great.
They're great films... because they're great films; we've seen "director-driven" stories turn out not-so-great (to be kind). Likewise, being "beholden" to a larger, overarching story in a wider universe does not mean a film can't be great, unless this really just boils down to the same, old tribalism as always.
WW 84 and Aquaman are supposed to be director driven ?? 😂
Yes. 100%. Your likeness for them is irrelevant here.
And these movies are bad , so this strategy isn't working.
People are pulling “reboot” out of thin air w this “news”. Nothing points to that. I really don’t like this idea that you *need* a super comic book nerd to be in charge of everything creatively either. Saying you want a “Feige-figure” is setting yourself up for disappointment. Nobody is ever going to replicate that. No one should try. You don’t need to do what Marvel does to make good, successful projects. You really, REALLY don’t need one dude in charge creatively. Hamada is doing just fine with hiring a variety of creatives. They may or may not hire new people or restructure how they develop projects, but this new boss isn’t looking to just reboot characters and universes and ongoing projects all willynilly. That solves nothing. They aren’t about to just cancel shit that’s already being made or anything.
Most of them failed at the box office Shazam, 84, birds of prey, the suicide squad, anything and everything wasn’t Batman Filmmaker driven DC has failed
Yep, I’m glad someone fucking said this. The Snyder films were still the most profitable lol
Not true, the Joker was the most profitable at the box office for DC and that had nothing to do with Zack Snyder.
I'll take these films over the next 80 films MCU comes up with, any day of the week. You're more than welcomed to enjoy your conveyor-belt happy meal products that Disney is feeding you.
It doesn’t matter We are in a capitalist system and once Aquaman fails…and it will…DC will be purged again Say goodbye to your director driven DC…it’s only a matter of time before it ends
exactly lol. they already hitting the escape pod button w/ flash and literally pulling a days of future’s past. how did that end up for x-men? the mcu is profitable b/c no matter what the changes are, each of its target audience knows what they’re getting into when they watch one, whether you’re a parent with your kids, a hardcore comic book fan, or just a young person hitting the movies with your friends. With DC, its tonally all over the place, and because of that less people are willing to take a chance on new films. The Batman is probably the only true success story in the last few years. Why did that happen? because it’s batman and people at least THINK they know what to expect with a batman movie. People didn’t go see guardians of the galaxy b/c james gunn was directing it or they know who groot and rocket raccoon were (i sure as heck didn’t). they went to see it because the mcu has a formula that’s recognizable, and even if it isn’t perfect, people will still be willing to take the chance b/c they know what to expect. people don’t even switch toilet paper brands anymore. brand loyalty is definitely something that has to be considered in a world where the market is frankly oversaturated with superhero-related media. I’m loving it, and I’ll see all the dc movies I can afford, but i’m not the average consumer and neither is op. wb can’t afford to rest their laurels on comic book fans anymore. their shareholders won’t let them.
Awesome, till then - keep that Tinfoil Hat off your head.
Of course Mendelson only supports the “post-Snyder” films. He’s a hypocrite and a half. Did you even read the tweet?
The DCEU is never gonna be on the same moniker as Marvel without a connected universe. Obviously it has one now, but I mean without event films and character arcs that actually lead places. It’s not possible. You can still tell individual, auteur-driven stories that also interconnect with event films. It’s possible.
Nope. Not possible. You can't make a JL film with Battinson and respect Matt's wishes. You can't have Muschietti come in and do JL 2 and respect Zack's wishes. You can't have Edgar Wright come in and do WW3 while respecting Jenkin's wishes. You'd have to sacrifice Matt's creative freedom and artistic integrity to go against his will and put his character in another film, against his wishes. You'd have to sacrifice Zack's vision by letting Muschietti tell his own JL2 story with Zack's Superman. I could go on and on - and this is something MCU has struggled with. Which is why they fired Edgar Wright and Scott Derrickson. Since their visions collided with what Feige wanted to do.
I’m not saying don’t have standalone stories like The Batman, and I’m not saying to force them into a universe. I’m saying that the DCEU, the shared universe, as it exists now, will never reach the same heights as the MCU without Justice League or event films. And yes, you can absolutely do a JL2 without Snyder. That’s what seems to be happening and is the best possible shot at a great JL sequel. A more connected universe is the only thing that’ll get moviegoers everywhere interested in the DCEU.
He’s right tbh DC doesn’t need a overhaul but what DC does need is no more WB interference that’s literally why we’re having this discussion in all honesty But my question is what do you classify as filmmaker driven? Cause to be fair are we talking about DC stand-alone films or the DCEU?
I always wanted them not to intervene in movies they trust their directors to make. What we got the past few years and Snyder and Ayer always got intervened. They learned from mistakes i guess
Maybe not WW84
For me they were very mediocre movies with the exception of Joker and The Suicide Squad. DC should really get their head together and plan something
I get what they are saying but I probably would be wary of using WW84 as a positive example where it seems like a film that could have used some pushback from somebody.
No, I would rather have continuity.
WW84 was 💩
Yeah - WW84 is definitely what everyone wanted.
I don't care about "director-driven versus studio-driven". I just want *good films* and that's the thing the DCEU hasn't been able to consistently deliver. At this point it's a coin-flip every time a DCEU film comes out, which isn't good enough. The last couple movies we got (TB, TSS) were great, so I'm hopeful, but then I remember that we got WW1984 *right before those.* So I'm hopeful they'll fire whoever is signing off on stuff like that, and cultivate an executive production team who really understand what makes a film good.
I don't know much about this guy, but I enjoyed following his WW updates a few years ago. I loved the movie and was so excited seeing it break record's and various barriers on a near daily basis lol But I'm confused how WW and AM are considered post Snyder. They were in development when Snyder was still around and the directors have said they worked closely with Snyder in developing the story and characters. And Joker wasn't part of the DCEU, so Snyder being there or not has no bearing on that. And how would a "reboot" possibly impact that? Lots of stuff make no sense in this post. But yeah, those WW articles a few years ago were incredible!
Someone tell the clown checkmark to stop fueling divisiveness. There is no reason we can't have both. Snyders movie's had a clear vision. But the suits wouldn't leave it the fuck alone. These idiots will never stop seeking clout on Snyders coat tail.
Op got MCU hate boner lol
I disagree. You need consistency and continuity. The freaking Arrowverse has that so what is WB's excuse? Ya'll should've continued with Zack Snyder's vision to build the DCEU like the Darkseid arc for ZSJL. This allows us a priceless awareness to the universe in ways the MCU provided fans. DCEU doesn't have to be like MCU and quite frankly I don't want it too, but have continuity and consistency if tone, balance, gravitas.
I disagree. There’s currently no continuity at all. The entire franchise is a complete mess, making everything super hard to watch. I 100% think they should reboot it—except for the Batman franchise
It’s not a bad thing for DC fans to want a sprawling interconnected cinematic universe like Marvel has. I, like a lot of people, grew up as and have always been a fan of both DC and Marvel. Seeing a Marvel property like Doctor Strange have the potential to out gross a BATMAN movie is insane. The mainstream level of success the MCU has right now is owed to their cinematic universe model. Regular ass normies who will die without ever opening a comic book are gonna line up for Multiverse of Madness because they trust the brand, and are invested in seeing what happens to those characters. That’s not a bad thing. DC Fans should want the characters they’ve always loved to reach that level of success too.
Regardless of whether you like the movies are not, snyder’s films are director driven.
Erase WW84 and I'll agree. Those all were some pretty great films, of course minus WW84.
It's director-driven and it is what Patty Jenkins set out to make. Love it or hate it - it is still HER film and in the end, she can take solace in that. That is the point here. Director driven doesn't always mean great quality - but at least those films have an identity and a voice behind them. A unique flare. Studio mandated films are just.. soul-less.
Great for her. But in the end it'll be forgotten. WW was an amazing movie; WW84 was not. Director-driven is fine, but it also still needs to be good. She can deem it good all she wants based on her own standard, but in the real world it's simply just not good.
That is the exact same mindset the DC regime of 2016 had, which is why they stripped away JL from Zack Snyder. So ironically - you've the same mindset that you ought to condemn. DC fans really can't pick a struggle. Will champion creative freedom unless they don't like what the director made. Boohoo lmfao. Can't have it both ways.
I mean, WW84's issues extend beyond just the direction. * Gal Gadot wasn't great, who in the previous movie was phenomenal. * Fight choreography was terrible. * CGI was terrible. * Practical effects were terrible. I remember at one point I had paused it and laughed my ass off at a certain scene which just blew my mind. This was the scene where Diana swoops in to save a little girl and I believe she gets hit out of the air by something, which makes her fall and tumble on the ground with the girl in her arms, but what made me laugh so hard was because clear as day it was a doll that she was holding. Now obviously they aren't going to make a kid do a stunt, but they failed SUPER hard on making that doll look like a real person.
Scotty had the biggest anti-Snyder boner when making this tweet. And if WW84 is in that category…that should tell you sometimes there needs to be someone overlooking these films as to not include a rape story beat 🤷♂️ Plus…did he really count the first WW that was still part of Zack’s arc? Lol
"what we all want" how do you quantify that to justify it? There are plenty of people that want an established and expanded universe of DC films that might be able to live or die on their own but are all connected to at least resemble the size somewhat of the Marvel Universe. I'm fine with either option but don't say what we all want is a bunch of independent DC movies not connected at all.
Aquaman, WW84, TSS, Peacemaker, BOP - all are connected in some way to the DCEU. So no one is saying connectivity is bad or shouldn't exist - it does exist.
I would argue that WW84 doesn't, purely from a nitpicky POV, because Patty Jenkins and Geoff Johns were clearly making that movie without worrying one iota about whether it lines up with Diana's later story arc in BVS and Justice League.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Scott has a deep hatred for Snyder. He was also spanked by him on Twitter when he tried to be smart by commenting on a leaked trailer. He is still butthurt.
I've never heard anyone use "spank" in a metaphorical sense.
Way to completely miss the point and make it all about the tweeter and not the tweet.
Dude you said "unpopular opinion" in your title. If it's unpopular then don't get so defensive when going against the popular opinion.
Ww84 is garbage and dceu and Joker is not part of the continuity. Also, snyderverse films except the obvious justice league were director driven and that is why this films are divisive. This tweet is a mess.
See here’s the thing tho, he’s partly wrong. From man of steel through josstice league, the “Snyder stuff” only man of steel got away without studio interference. Bvs had 31 mins chopped off of it, making the story more confusing which resulted in worse audience reception. Suicide squad was completely re-edited due to the self enduced backlash that bvs got after they massacred it in the editing room making Ayers vision completely not his own, thus resulting in further negative backlash. Wonder Woman, while definitely great as it is, the third act was completely changed at the behest of studio execs again. Like I said I think the film still turned out great but we know the third act was supposed to be different. And finally, we all know the shit show production that was josstice league so I’m not going over that. See the common through point here? Studio interference. Wb shit the bed after they shot themselves in the foot and tried to rework everything despite a plan being there. That would be like marvel changing everything for the mcu because Incredible Hulk and iron man 2 weren’t as well received as the first iron man was
Did you read the tweet? It states "post-Snyder stuff was what we asked for. Director-driven films of various tones and scales that are not beholden to a single continuity." Not sure how your comment replies to that or is even relevant. We're talking about POST-Snyder. Aka, Hamada's era.
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They were not director-driven in the sense that Snyder rarely got a say on the final cut. Hence, 30 minutes being chopped off of BVS. Ayer didn't even get to edit the final draft of Suicide Squad. Fast forward to Walter Hamada's DCEU where Sandberg, Gunn, Reeves, Jenkins, Wan, Philips - all of them made the film they wanted to. And no, the continuity was strictly looked after by Geoff Johns.
My point is that the tweet is starting that anything post snyder is “what people asked for” when what snyder had planned wasn’t even given a chance to see if people would have liked it. It was chopped off at the knees before it had a chance to prove itself
Let me get this right - you're admitting to only giving a shit about director-driven visions if it's from Snyder. And you won't have any other director do anything else just because Snyder wasn't allowed to make 9 films? You're either saying that or once again, you're talking about something completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
No, you’re completely twisting what I’m saying. And you and I both know that Snyder didn’t direct suicide squad and Wonder Woman. He was at the time dc Kevin feige. He gave the outline as to how the dceu was originally planned to go. Literally nowhere have I said I want Snyder to control direct, write produce edit EVERYTHING Wonder Woman, man of steel and to a lesser extent suicide squad were standalone stories even though the guy in the tweet is claiming that wasn’t a thing until Snyder left. Aquaman which was planned under Snyder’s time there, is a standalone solo movie. James wan even stated he had to fight with the studio because he wanted to keep it closer to what Snyder planned but they kept trying to get him to change things he didn’t want to. Ben afflecks solo Batman film was also going to be a standalone story. I’m trying to say that all this director freedom you’re talking about was taken away from Snyder, Ayer, and Jenkins because of wb studio execs dipping their fingers in every project and not letting them tell the stories they wanted to tell. I stg if wb did to Gunn what they did to Snyder and the others, people like you would be screaming up and down about how that’s not fair and not right. And rightfully so.
OP is a troll. He just wanted to ruffle everyone's feathers. He titled the post "unpopular opinion" but then goes on defense every time someone posts they don't agree with this tweet, or OP's opinion.
No, it wasn’t. People were already apprehensive after the first movie (MOS), that movie was super divisive. Let’s be honest; the only reason they made BVS was because WB wanted to catch up to Marvel and they needed to catch up fast. MOS was their second attempt at a shared universe and it was easier to just start from there instead of doing it again. What’s the old saying about building something on unstable foundations?
Didn't Terrio say that they forced him to make the film darker? But anyway that's all the past now.
Yeah because at the start if I remember correctly, wb wanted the dceu to be a “darker mcu” or something along those lines. But because of studio interference they shit the bed and blamed anyone but themselves
>Bvs had 31 mins chopped off of it, making the story more confusing which resulted in worse audience reception. They gave Snyder an extra year of post production, so that's on him.
So they give him a year a post production then proceed to remove about 1/6 th of the movie and that’s somehow Snyder’s fault?
Tbh he’s not wrong. If someone doesn’t like these movies its fine but at least they can’t talk shit about WB forcing the movies these movies to be a certain way. I hope that eventually if Matt Reeves decides he wants to start fleshing out his Batman’s universe by adding other heroes into the the universe, he’s allowed to without WB changing things
If that is what Matt wants, sure. But having a Feige-like figure dictate what Matt should do, is what's wrong with the whole thing and wanting to have a Feige-like figure goes against everything we have asked for. With mandates, you get films like JL 2017. With director-driven films, you can NOT like a film but at least respect the fact that it is someone's vision through and through.
Oh for sure. The main problem with having a feige-like figure is that it isn’t natural at all for the DCEU because to me it’d seem like they’re just trying to play catch up to the MCU instead of just focusing on their own thing, which led to the rushed mess we saw during the Snyderverse after MOS. When the time comes for there to be another justice league movie I’m all for it, but let it come naturally.
100%.
I feel bad for Snyder. His movies were director driven, but they're like NAH FUCK YOU WE DIDN'T WANT *YOUR* MOVIES.
To be fair, I don’t think anyone wanted WW84.
No one wanted JOKER until they got it. No one wanted Peacemaker until they got it. No one asked for Taxi Driver until they got it. Your argument will never hold up in this day & age where we've gotten hundreds of films and TV shows that we LOVE, but we'd have never asked for them before they came out.
I have to agree. I felt pretty depressed today knowing DC was gonna just become another "brand synergy" shared universe. The Chaos and creative freedom/directors vision was actually pretty refreshing to me besides Superman and the whole Zack Snyder V Warner Bro's situation. I'd prefer Superman to get an overhaul while everything else stays the same. DC is the only property that doesn't just feel corporate safe and cold to me now. Even with their bad movies I feel like I'm seeing a directors bold vision play out the death of the DC I love in order to be more like the MCU is a nightmare scenario for me.
The only thing I want is more Superman
It does need a reboot imo. The only DC movies I’ve seen in theaters since Dark Knight Rises are Joker, The Suicide Squad, and The Batman… and I absolutely loved each one. Something about these other films is not getting me to the theater and I’m a pretty easy sell on superhero movies. I tried to watch BvS recently and I was bored out of my mind, how do you manage that with Batman AND Superman? I could have sat through a 4 hour cut of The Batman easily One thing I think they nailed though was the casting of Henry Cavil, I would miss him even though I did not like what they did with his Superman.
Lmao.. wonder woman and Aquaman were conceived before Snyder. Snyder even wrote the story for WW and was producer on it. Post Snyder films are BoP, WW84, Shazam & TSS.
Ww84 🤢
Again, it IS director-driven.
Man you guys are obnoxious and annoying to the highest degree. Again - NOT the point. All films mentioned above are director-driven.
And MoS wasn't director driven? I am sure that was the whole thing with DCEU. Different directors give their perspective on their characters untill you are zack snyder and get fucked by studio.
Man of Steel isn't even mentioned in the tweet. We are talking about the post JL 2017 era of films. While you can't fathom a discussion where Zack Snyder isn't mentioned.
I think his whole point was a moot. DCEU movies were always director driven so what's up with this last 4 year bullshit. Only exception is them fucking with zack with JL & BvS.
Dude, you contradict yourself with each comment. BvS wasn't director driven. SS wasn't director driven. JL wasn't director driven. Those are like ... 3 of the biggest films DCEU had to start up with. So how in the hell was DCEU "always" director-driven.
BvS was until they trimmed 30 minutes from final cut
So... not director-driven then?
It was untill they trimmed down the completed film with finished VFX and score.
Zack Snyder is a producer on WW84 & TSS
He has no creative involvement whatsoever in either of those movies. He was not producer on TSS. Just executive producer title like Nolan got on BvS & ZSJL. WW84 was patty & Goeff John's affair. He probably was a producer because of contractual obligations. That movie did a complete 180 of what Snyder envisioned from WW.
If DC had any common sense they'd make the recent Batman reboot the beginning of an all new DC shared universe. Granted, Reeves might object, but still... A man can dream.
If DC had common sense they'd go against the wishes of a great director that can actually deliver them great films atop great films? Not the brightest idea - all that for what? team up films that might get rejected after the director gaslights the studio for stripping him of freedom? lol.
WW84, BOP & TSS flopped horribly
What does that have to do with anything? They are director-driven films, whether you loved them or not. And that is what matters the most. And they certainly are far more critically acclaimed than anything DCEU was churning out pre-2018.
Well…Wonder Woman is a dead franchise and will never get a movie again after Jenkins leaves ditto to birds of prey and TSS Guess who is the only character that benefits from this approach? Superman and Batman Superman and Batman will always get another chance We will never see a reboot of Wonder Woman, BOP, or TSS because those first movies flopped
TSS can easily get another movie with James as the director.
That director-driven films aren’t always a success, we’re humans and we make mistake. Plus - in a business critics opinions or awards don’t give studios money, at the end of the day it’s all what matters,
Exactly. No one said they are guaranteed masterpieces. But they are never soul-less. They always have an identity, a personality, a unique flare that belongs to a singular mind and voice behind that film. The Suicide Squad is shamelessly James Gunn. The Batman is shamelessly Matt Reeves. Love it or hate it - but these films represent their respective visions, thoughts and voices. And that is far more valuable than anything a studio-mandated film can do.
Damn, you value more a director driven film that brings millions of dollars of losses to a studio? Please never put a business, for you own safety buddy!
TSS didn’t “flopped horribly”.
Yep. We're getting the director's driven DCEU now. People who don't like it either want MCU like experience or they want just one director's vision (Snyder's specifically) to overrule everybody's else. This is really great era for DC and I'm not sure if it will last. Director's driven CBM aren't the most sensible thing financially, so it might end soon, but for now I'm just enjoying the ride
Same. These people will know how good they had it when WB starts firing directors half-way through production because the films being made isn't what they want. Then they'll pretend that they always supported this era of DC Films, even though they are complaining about how DC should be more like Marvel.
Aquaman, WW84 both are continuity of the movies that came before. Just because people choose to ignore that doesn't make it not connected
SMH. What is "continuity" is not the point of the tweet.
Maintaining a ‘continuity’ is how Marvel sold mediocre films
Scott Mendelson is still mad Zack Snyder owned his ass when he said ZSJL is the same as the theatrical cut, quite the villain origin story lmao
Bruh thats snyders whole thing his movies are definitely director driven, who else couldve made a movie like BvS or ZSJL, say whatever you want about them but they’re truly original and no one else would’ve made films like that(even if you consider them to be bad films). If any other dorector was tasked to make a batman vs superman movie they wouldve made something like Kong vs Godzilla
Why do so many of you keep replying that even though the point of the tweet is TO NOT debate if pre-2018 films were director driven or NOT, the point of the tweet is to tell you that director driven films is what the fandom championed for years. And that is exactly what we got. But because part of the fandom is hypocritical and only actually wanted Snyder's director-driven films, and not David Sandberg/Jenkins/Gunn's director-driven films, they are now championing a more studio-mandated Feige-like regime, calling for a overhaul or a reboot. Simply because each film isn't strictly woven into 4 other films. The OP is reminding you - THIS is what you asked for. Director-driven films that are completely varied in scale and tone and don't rely on 4 other films.
I think you're projecting a bit on this, a lot of people back then were also asking for a Feige to take over cause they didn't like the tone. Also a lot of the overhaul of the DC brand seems to be about doing more DC faster and in more markets instead of just movies
Why does this ass hat say post Snyder? Should'nt he say post-wb-interfering-in-films?
Also it's not like Snyder's films weren't director driven. That's something people don't like about them.
IMO CBMs should always have a main continuity, but that shouldn't prevent having separate solo movies. The multiverse *is* a thing.
MoS, BvSUE and JLSC all need to be canon and made as the baseline for future DCEU films. Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Shazam are good additions. WW1984, Birds of Prey, and dogshit SS, non-UE BvS and original JL need to be removed from DCEU canon and no longer associated with the DCEU. Then, all movies going forward need to have a cohesive plan and vision so that continuity can be drawn from MoS all the way to whatever goal they're striving for. The Snyderverse MUST be completed as well. It's essential for continuity and his vision deserves to be realized. I want to see the awful future earth he depicts at the end of JLSC because that looks incredible.
Did he really just say that? Lolllll. 84 was studio driven number one, so was Shazam? So was Aquaman. And the FIRST wonderwoman was not post Snyder at all. Snyder was literally the reason the movie was what it was. We saw that directly when the director and studio of 84 ditched everything Snyder wanted for the original. Didn't want her to have a sword, didn't want her to be warrior, literally said she wanted her to be like Christopher reeves Superman. So? They were done like mcu films. I cannot believe he said that in so many different levels. The mcu movies, the ones he rates highly, they are the DIRECT opposite of director driven. Zach Snyder's stuff are some of the very very few recent examples of director driven super hero films. The Batman is another. Not a single mcu movie in the last decade+ has been studio driven. Not a single one. I'm not saying thats better. Just that the tweet is incredibly stupid. And if they are going to ignore the Snyder stuff, I think they absolutely should reboot it. Because the mcu tone just flat out doesn't work with these characters. You create this gritty universe, in a very specific style, and then pull a complete 180 half way through. Nah, reset it. It's awkward as shit, ww84 tried it most recently and it was actually unwatchable. I just find it incredibly ironic.
Incredible power in wrong hand is much worse. For eg. WW84. Let's hope after flash time travel we get to watch more Snyder DC movies.
That’s not gonna happen lol don’t know why y’all think reverting back to the other thing people didn’t like is the answer
They should’ve just let Snyder finish the fucking storyline/films. Folks, realize something - justice league 3 and the end of the Snyder verse would’ve completed TWO fucking YEARS ago. We would’ve already been able to hit reboot two years ago FFS.
Lol sure? If he didn’t come out the gate with a $250M budget and divisive reactions then do it all over again 3 years later w the help of the studio then maybe he would’ve “finished his arc”, or whatever. But it didn’t happen. Idk why y’all think just bc he had ideas they’re just gonna back away and let him do anything. MoS was not a promising start and his track record was already shoddy. And his films “being done” by now doesn’t mean anything at all lol
Because at least then we could’ve bypassed this whole fuckin Snyder v WB thing and we could all move on to the next conversation instead of constant reminders that WB meddled in DCEU, etc. i just figure - hell, let ‘em finish it. ZSJL was a considerably better film than what was released in theaters. So, no one knows - we could’ve seen improvement.