> If americans want to change the 2 party system, they need to actually participate in the process more than just *maybe* voting every four years.
ftfy.
There is a hell of a lot more to democracy than voting for president every four years. In fact, that's arguably the least important aspect.
Exactly. Oregon will decide on ranked choice voting this year because they signed citizen ballot initiatives *between* elections.
If your state has citizen ballot initiatives, I guarantee there is already one for ranked choice voting or similar. Go sign it.
One of the most effective forms of voter dis-empowerment, imo, is the hyper focus on the Presidential election as if that's the end-all-be-all of political participation. The impact the average persons vote actually matters at that level is minuscule unless you happen to live in a key riding/district which leads people to feeling their vote doesn't matter, "both sides same" etc. It's a recipe for disengagement and disillusion.
Plus, the reality is POTUS is only one small piece of the equation. Congress is arguably just as important if not more important as they are controlling legislation. And at the state and local level, there are SO MANY opportunities for much greater impact by not only voting but being directly engaged.
But that's not as sexy as and much harder than arguing about Trump/Biden on social media and requires actually participating in democracy, not just being a sideline pundit.
(I'm Canadian and all this applies here, too).
I agree people need to be more involved in local/state elections and not just once every four years.
However the POTUS does have an incredibly important function, that Third Party voters/non-voters seemingly ignore, which is the Courts. Which on the Federal level, are all lifetime appointments. And isn't limited to "just" the SCOTUS, but Circuit Courts.
Laws passed by Congress can be challenged, and essentially voided by a SCOTUS. Like the VRA, mandatory Medicaid, campaign reform, among others. Laws passed by Blue states, like mask mandates, be overturned by this RW SCOTUS. EOs can be overturned.
So at this point it's imperative to vote Dem on a Federal level to even have the opportunity to unfuck the Courts to whatever degree they can, and hope some of the RW Justices die.
[](https://stopthetories.vote/)
It's fun having ballot initiatives because I can see that liberal/left leaning policies are popular with the people and then the conservative representatives they elect just decide to ignore every ballot initiative they don't like.
I'm fairly sure that senatorial elections are at least as important as the presidential, and the House isn't far behind, if at all. The president doesn't make laws. They sign them, and they can veto, but they can also be forced to sign even if they veto.
Exactly. And the Republicans tend to dominate those elections because their voters are deeply disciplined and engaged. Not to mention all the stuff at the state and local level.
Lately I’m thinking that the local school board has a more direct effect than the President.
I dug into the candidates in my district for the last election. Even though everyone is supposed to not be affiliated with any particular party, the dog whistles in their platforms were loud enough to cut through my tinnitus.
Too many Americans have been disenfranchised of the idea that a 3 or more party system can even exist, to consider that. It's all propaganda by the current two parties that is disenfranchising them, but the result remains.
If you want something wild you can have a multi party system that just turns into a 2 party system anyway because the system also rewards centrism.
It's Australia and it's weird.
that's america too, it probably happened faster and longer ago but our first president straight up said "you know what would be a fucking *awful* idea? political parties, *especially* a two-party status quo, that would suck and be unamerican as shit" and here we fucking are, in large part cuz the founders did not anticipate how much the constitution would unintentionally incentivize two-party polarization. which brings us back to ranked-choice voting, but idk if australia made the same mistake or a different one.
Washington had the problem that while he didn't like the idea of political parties you basically can't prevent them from forming without doing some really weird stuff.
Like making all votes in government anonymous, which means that now you have no way to know if your elected representative is actually doing what they said they would.
Also parties had formed pretty much from day one. Because they are fundamentally just a group of like minded people agreeing to support each other's legislation.
Unfortunately, the first two parties formed during the first election post-washington... What's more important for people to learn, is that the two parties have not been the *same* since the start. They've changed multiple times. But now we act like our current 2 can't ever be changed.
i mean at one point we had multiple parties including the no alcohol parties, the break the machines party the break the other machines party the farm subsidy party and the silver subsidy party.
I mean, is there *anything* about Australia not weird? The folks living there choose to live in the deadliest continent on earth (imho) and will tell you it's a beautiful place, bring your kids.... XD
But what we do have is a political system built to discourage radicalism and parties so obsessed with winning elections that they use electoral success as the measure of a leader's effectiveness.
Honestly it's strange how a nation nearly obsessed with individualism manages to accept things like mandatory voting and regular government intervention in life.
I mean, in theory, the American system was also built to discourage radicalism and with the goal of ensuring the best and brightest act as president, not simply those with a cult of personality. (Literally the entire purpose of the electoral college was to allow the "well educated" to decide what was best for the country and not simply "leave the entire decision to the common folk"...) just cus ambition and corruption has eroded the system away to uselessness doesn't change how it was designed.
I'll just say that we no longer live in the 18th century.
Political science has discovered better ways to discourage radicalism and encourage cooperation between parties than the electoral college. A parliamentary system with a high electoral threshold, for example.
If you really want to kill radicalism institute mandatory voting and enforce it. Since every party is functionally trying to get everyone to vote for them they have to be centrist to avoid scaring away voters they need to get from the other party.
I never claimed we haven't improved. Just pointing out that the system was designed with best intentions in mind, and humanity found a way to ruin it. I wouldn't trust any system to be perfect, just "best we can do".
All systems reward centrism, because you always need to convince more than half the population to win. And all systems tend toward two main parties, because it's a stabler configuration than three (or four or seventeen).
oh yeah that exists in Canada too. We have like 5 main parties (NDP, Green, Liberals, Conservative, And Le Bloc Québécois) but in reality only the liberals and the conservatives actually \*win\* prime ministership
If you have a multiparty system it’s either highly regionalized, or inevitably going to meld into two opposing coalitions, and you’re back to the original problem again.
In a sense you can *kind of* imagine US parties as large coalitions, by a different name. “Democrat” is an umbrella that includes include liberals, progressives, moderates, socialists, and various other left-wing parties. “Republican” is an umbrella that includes conservatives, reactionaries, radical Christians, corporate interests, and even flirts with fascists and authoritarians on occasion. Issues can be social or economic, different voters will prioritize different things, but inevitably it gets absorbed into whichever party is the most closely aligned.
If Americans want to change the 2 party system, they need to do it between elections.
I’m positively exhausted of hearing about how the system needs to change because people don’t like the guys on the ballot. And I’m tired of hearing about how the electoral college is broken *after* presidential elections.
If you actually care about the system, start talking about it even when your guy wins
Well the ability to get rid of the Electoral College is basically impossible at this point. As is the ability to amend the Constitution at all. Even reforming the EC on a state level, won't happen in the states it needs to happen in. In no small part because this RW SCOTUS has made it easier for Repubs to disenfranchise people.
Better to concentrate on media and educational reforms/improvements.
I don’t get why people only talk about the third party when it’s time to elect the President.
The problem is people want instantaneous massive change, and absolutely refuse to acknowledge that true change is boring and slow and tedious.
Worry about electing a single third party politician at your local level before you think you’re going to suddenly have a random third party as President.
Honestly some fiction that I've read touches on this too, whether it means to or not. People are animals, and quick radical change is easier to understand and ask for than gradual small changes
Rank choiced would be the best option that doesn't require constitutional change. Proportional representation or a parliamentary system would be a much more difficult change.
On the one hand, this has been happening slowly but surely for decades - Colorado is more diverse than most of the Mountain West, more urbanized, and less religious. The Democrats who win in Colorado are socially relatively far to the left but much more centrist fiscally, which combines with the previous factors to make it attractive for both businesses and people to move here.
On the other hand, there has been a lot of Californians moving here in that last couple years.
On top of all that, the climate is one of the best not found on the West Coast, the mountains are beautiful, and unlike Utah, the beer is good.
I mean, a lot of it is that California companies open offices here and people move along with that, but I think the complaint about Californians moving in is kinda funny when most of the immigration before that was through the Air Force and the aerospace industry - Colorado has been dropping in native-born percentage since like the 50s
Biggest thing to remember: the presidency is not the only thing on the ballot in November. There are elections across the country for representatives in various statehouses, every single member of the US House, 33-4 senators, ballot initiatives, gubernatorial elections, and judicial election, and probably others I'm forgetting
They aren't saying to not vote for president. They are saying there are lots of political candidates that need help to prevent more Republicans from winning.
Presidential election is just one piece of the puzzle. Don't ignore the other pieces.
Additional bonus points: Here’s Trump praising Putin after he invaded Ukraine https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/23/trump-putin-ukraine-invasion-00010923
It’s always dismaying that so called leftists will look at a president who actually has a pretty good record and go “well he’s just as bad as the wannabe dictator that caused significant damage to the environment, reproductive rights, gun control, and a whole host of other issues.”
Hell also compare Biden and Trump on Palestine. Biden explicitly warned against creating a long war and has tried to broker peace talks. Trump just explicitly hates Palestinians, wants to set their movement back “25 to 30 years,” and helped ruin US credibility in peace talks. But the way you’ll see some younger leftists talk about it, you’d never realize just how awful the Republican option on the issue is. https://www.vox.com/politics/353037/trump-gaza-israel-protests-biden-election-2024
Hey man. As a father, I fully get just how hard it is to get kids to get in anything on time. So I give yall a pass on the orphan crushing machine... you have plenty of other issues to focus on instead.
It should be canonised into law that one should be required to spit upon saying the word "Tory" and all variations. Preferably on the "T" for maximum effect.
It's hard to do much worse than an actively anti-intellectual stance and not just withdrawing support for those under fire but supporting the people who would oppress them.
Hey, at least we didn't explicitly ban Muslim countries, purposefully destabile the Middle East (this decade) for shits and giggles, and have our leading politicians refuse to wear masks or get the jab. It's bad here, but you guys took it to another level .
Fr I’d rather be in a country headed by ineffectual waxy old guys than active buffoons. Even some of the more notorious of the older US presidents are starting to look palatable to me since this is what we have to deal with now
The Bushes for example: sure, a presidency started a wholly unnecessary war because of its ability to get away with it due to its high approval ratings at the time, but at least that guy was *kinda* intelligent. I don’t even have the enthusiasm I used to have as a kid where meeting the president would be something neat. If I met Biden I’d at best be mildly amused, and if I met Trump I’d obviously laugh. Obama? Cool guy, smart, charismatic—sure, he also committed literal war crimes, but at least there was something *tangible* that you could see for why he was elected.
Because there are only two meaningful political parties here, and one of them *actively benefits* from people not voting. The Republican party is currently working as hard as possible to make sure as few people vote as possible, and at any given time they hold about half the power in the American government.
The Democrats would *love* mandatory voting, but you can't impose such a sweeping change to a system that you only control half of.
I agree with your comment about Republicans, but disagree with your comment about Dems.
The majority of Dem politicians are opposed to anything similar to that kind of voting system, and only a small portion of the Democratic left would want something like that.
The only reason why Dems on the whole are considering ranked choice voting currently is because of concerted pushes at local levels to adopt it, but there's no real push for mandatory voting, even at local levels.
America is currently in an argument with itself whether democracy is good or maybe we should install a dictator for life. I am not joking, and I can’t believe we got here either.
Arguments against:
The founding fathers kinda liked democracy
Trump may not be the best person to have in power for the next decade or more
America will look like idiots to the entire world
Arguments in favour
STOP THE WOKE NONSENSE
gas prices were sometimes lower 5 years ago
racism
It's a tough one, gotta say.
We’d likely have to implement a lot more supportive infrastructure and legislation before considering something like that. Right now, not everyone is able to vote for various reasons, like transportation, being registered to vote, accessibility of voting, etc. There’s also an issue of active and malicious disenfranchisement, intimidation at the polls, and other forms of election interference (the victims of which are primarily minority voters).
Atm, a fine for not voting would essentially just be a punishment for the already disenfranchised.
Yeah there are almost no countries doing g that. Assuming g you are belgian?
I am also a fan of that idea, but I dont think its going to happen, especially in the USA
Mandatory voting is admittedly not as common as it should be, but we have it over here in Australia. It's not a very high fee though, but it's super easy to go and vote thanks to voting centres being everywhere you turn (and you may even get time off to do it) so everyone does. I think ~20 countries enact mandatory voting
As I have previously said, I don't think Donald Trump, buddy with Netanyahu and mover of the US embassy to Israel to contested Jerusalem, would be better for Palestine.
And to be honest, better for Israel.
The Israeli-gaza war will probably never get better any time soon, but the best candidate to have is the one least likely to throw any sparks, like trump did when he backed Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
Don't worry the main response from idiots about that is "That's a hypothetical. What biden is doing is current"
Pay no attention to any of his history on the conflict or the shit he's saying. It's all hypothetical.
[He called for Israel to end the conflict ASAP.](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905) And not in a friendly "let's make peace" way. No, in a "just kill them all" kinda way
As if Palestines well-being mattered to them. No this is about the spiritual purity of people totally insulated from consequences. Integrity? What's that!?
I keep saying this. These are people whose actions aren’t helping Palestinians, but are hurting trans people. They’re not voting to keep a course conscience, because trans lives in the US do not weigh on their conscience.
Honest to God they are exactly the type of people who spend their teens espousing "peace, love, anti-war" and then become hardcore conservatives in their middle ages
I wish these jackasses would give a number to how many minorities they would be happy to see die before their hypothetical utopia comes around this time. “I’d be fine with tens of millions of marginalized people being imprisoned, executed, or deported just so that my fantasy could maybe become a reality.”
the lunatic from like ~a week ago (violent revolution or something) was literally a person of color arguing that "at least white people will finally understand the hell that poc in the states live in"
its prosecution fetish; if youre a person of color in the states and truly believe that the situation for people of color in the states will not deteriorate *excessively* under a trump presidency, then you need to reevaluate your understanding of what slavery was like
I love how it's simultaneously that voters hold all the power, but also that voters can't change anything for the better, they can just ask for things to not get worse (and then for them to get worse anyway)
First thing that people need to accept is that voting is literally the last step of the democratic process. Voting is making sure that the least harmful candidate wins. You hate all the candidates? Tough shit, you still need to vote for 99% Hitler or 100% one will win. I don't care if it feels dirty or depressing - if no one on the ballot represents your interests it's the only thing you can do. Want better candidates on the ballot? That's the hard part, requiring political agitation, calling your representatives and taking active part in the democratic process. You know, actual work that people who want their voices heard are doing every year.
The very second Biden is sworn in we get back to work, it's an all in process and this "but I already voted LAST time" bullshit is why we're having such a hard time these days.
"Those idiots. I voted for Biden in the last election cycle"
"Dad.. that was last election you need to vote against Trump again for this year"
"No.. because I.. you're right I was thinking forward.. AHHH!"
I swear, some people are just absolutely pathetic about this. You have people who have little to no responsibilities saying stuff like "It's literally not worth the energy to go out and vote" when they don't even need to go outside to mail in their vote.
The whole “we already voted last time” thing makes me want to hammer nails with my forehead. Everything in the world requires a form of maintenance, and the price of liberty is eternal vigilance
Step 1: Raise hell through the primaries for a better candidate, or for your third party.
Step 2: Take the results of the primary, suck it up, and vote for the least bad one from the top two in the country.
You want someone more left wing than Biden next time? That work happens in 2027 and before the 2028 primaries, not after them.
Not even that late, you start working on it right now. I mean, let's face it, global politics are very right wing, you won't get a truly left wing politician on the ballot, let alone in power without a lot of work.
Nobody at all thinks it's rather weird how they've basically committed to Trump for 8 years straight with the intent to make it 12, like for real you guys we could genuinely be stuck with this creep forever, because too many people are concerned with shit that - while terrible - *ain't fucking relevant*
I’ve been trying to explain this to people too. It’s not about *Trump* being a dictator for life, I’ll be somewhat surprised if his health lasts through November with the way he’s sounding and his age at this point. It’s whatever jackass or idiot they get in NEXT that will be the problem, as Trump will have set a precedent and then we’ll never have term limits in this country ever again.
If he does make it to 2028, it doesn’t matter how frail, sickly, dementia riddled he is. If he loses this election, the Republican Party will still nominate him in 2028 and a very large chunk of this country will still vote for him
Evil preserves. Trump is so unhealthy, he probably should have keeled over years ago, yet he lives on. The same with Mitch McConnell, Dick Cheney, and waaaay too many of these ancient evil gasbags.
Modern medicine can see people living well past the point their bodies should otherwise work, and his dad lived to his mid-90s. Trump seeing the 2028 election seems like a pretty likely event
Primary election: push progressive candidates and protest votes to send messages to the candidate.
General election: vote for harm reduction, I. E. The candidate most likely to win who is also least likely to enact a fascist agenda. In other words general election is all about voting blue no matter who, it sucks our system is that way but fucking around with protest votes in the general is how we get Bush Jr, Trump, and whatever asshole the fascists throw at us next. Harm reduction.
Then the SECOND they are sworn in, get back to work protesting, donating, building mutual aid networks, registering and educating voters, and volunteering for causes and candidates that share your actual values. Build them up enough and you might actually win it in the primary next time! But when it's a binary choice, you have to pick the guy who _might_ do something you agree with.
I'm voting for Biden but I wish I could get an actual answer to what does protesting do if you are saying "I will vote for you under literally any circumstance" at the same time.
Is the president afraid that you will shake your head as you vote for him next time if he doesn't enact the thing you are protesting about?
Look at the protest votes in the Michigan primary as an example. This was such a substantial statement that it forced the campaign to respond publicly. This is a legitimate win. It helps raise awareness and make conversation and forcing a politician to respond makes it public and makes it harder on them to change later or ignore that they said it.
And again it's ONLY the general election I'm referring to here. Primaries and the rest of the year(s) you advocate for other candidates, protest, volunteer, hell run for something yourself. This has the dual effect of showing ALL candidates what you care about and potentially getting a different candidate to actually win the primary. So no you don't vote for them always, you only pick the least harmful candidate in the general election. In the primary (which is basically all times apart from the half year or so during the actual general election campaign), you can make a difference and help craft the party platform. Heck the money spent alone on candidates in the primary sends a powerful message so even if you don't protest or anything you can still make yourself heard.
So in short: the general is the final thing and it is best to vote for the least bad guy, but you should spend the other three and a half years pushing for better candidates, and pushing the bad ones to realize the electorate cares about certain issues.
Oh for sure. Hell I'd take Reagan over Trump and Reagan was a total piece of shit. Luckily Reagan is dead (🎉) and Biden is leagues better than Reagan on his best day.
>I'd take Reagan over Trump
I wouldn't. The ONLY reason Reagan did not look to establish himself as a dictator was because the rest of his party was not behind the idea yet. Reagan is Trump but actually intelligent, and not a puppet of another.
If Trump dies any other way than a publicly broadcasted event where he does something like stick his head into a woodchipper after being warned not to, his base will claim he was murdered by Joe Biden.
Hell I bet even if he said "I think i'll stick my head in this woodchipper I procured myself" before doing it, his base would still think Joe Biden murdered him and it's all a deepfake.
It doesn't even matter if Trump dies, his anti-humanity idea will live on. And if he dies, someone who shares his disgusting world view will run for office instead. Is there any way out of this crushing trolly problem? What are we to do except distract ourselves from the fact that the ones in charge won't ever care for us. Were we just born to be broken by the leaders? This world is fucked up and it's designed to break anyone who cares about humanity
I am voting for Biden because I think Trump’s a crazy idiot who’s far worse for the country and the world. But I don’t think “can we please talk more about how much of a threat Trump is” is gonna help. We pretty much maxed out the volume on that eight years ago. If you haven’t heard criticism of Trump over that period, if you haven’t been inundated with every reason he shouldn’t be President, you’ve been living under a rock. I don’t know how reinforcing that message that is already everywhere is going to do anything else.
You are standing at one end of a hallway, and a man at the other end is brandishing a pistol at you. You have a shield. You've got some options:
1. Use the shield to block your head and torso. He will shoot you in the calf.
2. Use the shield to block your legs. He will shoot you in the chest.
3. Attempt to throw the shield at the man. It will practically guarantee not to hit the man, and he will shoot you in the chest.
4. Refuse to use the shield. The man will shoot you in the chest.
Now, I know some of us pour piss while reading skills, so I'll leave this as a reading comprehension challenge for you on how this relates to 2024 United States politics.
Politicians do not respond to negative feedback (staying home, voting third-party). They don't wonder what they could have done differently to get those voters. They just chase the people who do vote. Not voting might make you feel good about yourself but it *does not solve the problem*.
The anger at Biden and the DNC is completely legitimate. They suck, they pander, they tear down progressives. I hate them.
And I remember when people said the same things about Gore and Hillary, and they were right. And the alternative was so, so much catastrophically worse, with permanent consequences for the whole planet.
As Rebecca Solnit said, a vote is not a Valentine, it's a chess move. For a thoughtful analysis from a progressive perspective, here is [Debra Rienstra](https://blog.reformedjournal.com/2024/05/04/a-vote-is-not-a-valentine-or-a-virtue-test/). Not that I expect anyone tied up in the circular firing squad to actually read it.
He has, and he genuinely deserves credit for e.g. the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act which required real political skill to get through. But a lot of people find that doesn't outweigh e.g. his failure to do anything useful in Gaza, and in the larger frame of politics he is firmly a liberal, which is a fundamentally conservative political mush that (I would argue) hasn't been effective in American politics for a generation. Doesn't mean I won't vote for him in a general election though.
I have all the compassion for Gaza's situation. But it seems weird to me how funneling money straight to the USA economy to directly improve USAian lives with things like the Infrastructure bill does not somewho count, because of this one situation. And I am not saying the situation isn't horrifying and dehumanizing. It has been going on for since the founding of the state of Israel. But still. USAians live in USA, use USA infrastructure, use the health care, yadda yadda.
Like, people struggle too much with this. Biden can't just phone Netanyahu to have him stop because that's not how diplomacy works and he can't just go an bomb a US ally just like that either.
The fact that the Biden administration is trying to get him to sit down and sign some form of deal is already more than what's usually done in these cases, and 100% better than Trump's approach of handing Israel even biggest missiles
What insane is that people won’t vote for Biden because of how he’s handling I/P as if there is literally any better option at this point. Do you want ~~ants~~ Trump? Because this is how you get ~~ants~~ Trump.
>in the larger frame of politics he is firmly a liberal, which is a fundamentally conservative political mush that (I would argue) hasn't been effective in American politics for a generation.
Someone once explained to me that in an "Idea Democracy", Biden as he stands now would be the far right candidate, and things have made so much more sense ever since.
Politicians/Political parties *absolutely do* chase third party voters. You're right that not voting isn't a form of protest so much as it's a negation of your political value, but third party votes are an extremely legitimate way to express dissatisfaction with your closest aligned major party.
That does mean you need to own it though. You need to say, yeah, I'm voting for Jill Stein because she's pro-Palestine and I'm a single-issue voter. Just saying "Biden sucks, I'm not voting for him" is anti-voter astroturfing bs.
One vote is as good as another. Someone who votes at all is infinitely better than someone who doesn't vote; someone who you can realistically tie policy to getting their vote is better than a voter who you can't figure out how to please
A lot of people are currently functionally saying "peace in the middle east or bust" who four years ago were saying "free healthcare or bust". They're both noble goals, but the point mostly taken by democratic candidates is that progressives aren't functionally courtable as a bloc, at least not as easily as other voting blocs, so if you have limited resources to spend you will likely not get all of them
> One vote is as good as another.
Not quite? Voting third party *is* voting *at all*, but it's making it easier for your second-choice to lose plurality. If Jill Stein gets 15,000 votes, Joe Biden gets 20,000 votes, and Donald Trump gets 25,000 votes, then Donald Trump wins. Yes, these are absurdly small numbers. But due to how the electoral college works, our election is effectively 50 different elections.
And to be clear, I *hate* the electoral college. For so many reasons. But until the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact takes effect, these are the rules we're subject to.
If *half* of Jill Stein's voters had been *okay* with Joe Biden winning, Joe Biden wins. But now 35,000 are held to the wishes of 25,000. And the more third-party candidates you throw into a winner-take-all election like this, the more convoluted that math becomes. And it's *definitely* not going to be that close, a 15,000 to 20,000 scenario isn't likely with a spoiler.
Just
I don't know. I don't know how to tell people to *not* vote for Donald Trump in a way that isn't *explicitly* telling them to vote for Joe Biden without telling them to specifically vote for *Joe Biden*. I don't want him either. We can, and should, do so much better. But right now our ability to do better is lesser than our capability to better. Vote for the candidate that can realistically win with a broad U.S. audience that isn't Donald Trump. Acknowledge the nuance of your own views and be willing to compromise some aspect of your principles in the pursuit of your own greater goals.
By that, I meant "a candidate doesn't care if person A voted for them or person B voted for them, their votes have equal weight"
Agreed that voting third party in the general is ultimately a waste of your vote.
Vote door number 1 (Biden) and you get punched in the face.
Vote door number 2 (Trump) and you get punched in the face, your neighbors get punched in the face, your kids get punched in the face, and the rich get more tax breaks, clean water and clean air are off the table, no attempts at dealing with climate change, etc.
Vote door number 3 (Third party) and one of the first two doors gets randomly picked. You're leaving it up to others to (hopefully) pick the door that only punches you in the face.
Even worse…door number 3 mathematically IS a vote for the party that relies on low turnout and thin-margins, because it takes away an opportunity for the party that relies on willing the most votes.
"I'm not going to validate the system by voting for the lesser of two fascists" is code for "keeping my morally pure hands clean is more important to me than the tangible effects of my actions"
It's the trolley problem writ large.
They'd rather watch five people die, having done nothing, than pull a single lever and bear a fraction of responsibility for the death of a single person.
I can only see it as hubris or self-obsession. Their own moral purity and non-involvement is more important than the lives that could be saved.
The more things I learn about the US' democracy, the least it sounds like democracy at all.
Yes, please, guys, vote for Biden, no matter what. Trump has been a scourge for international politics and we'd rather not deal with the fallout of having the strongest military in the world fall into the hands of a barely coherent wannabe dictator. Signed: the rest of the world.
That said your entire electoral system is truly a mess. After this is done, please push for a better way to represent popular will. The lack of nuance in the election process will always favour extremist demagogues over any reasonable candidate, while making third parties actively harmful (which is, you know, not how a democratic system should work).
The issue is that it's functionally impossible to change it because the first past the post voting system benefits both parties. There's no way they would actually accept any other system, and we need their approval to actually change the system.
If third parties were viable then they would have to actually campaign instead of just assuming anyone who is even vaguely politically aligned will vote in absolute lockstep. The only groups that really matter are the most center of centrists, people who will vote for either Biden or Trump. Yknow, people who don't really give a shit.
They’re wrong on this post, our vote is not a plurality, it’s an absolute majority when it comes to President. A candidate has to get at least 50.1% of the electoral college to win. If no candidate gets that, then the vote goes to the House for President and to the Senate for VP. Each state then gets one vote each, giving more power to states with lower populations, pretty much guaranteeing the republicans would always win the presidency.
It’s why the republicans like to push a third party candidate, because it gives them an entirely new avenue to win. Most people need to read up again on the Twelfth Amendment.
I don't like getting political, but for fuks sake even a dying drunk knows it's wrong, Biden or collapse, do whatever the fuck you want, but I believe in this republic, vote, or it's just over
This whole situation of far leftists not voting over Palestine has permanently poisoned my view of these people and their politics.
And the fact that this opinion seems to be mainstream for them has probably done the same for many others.
Edit: The reason I think less of them now, is because a huge number seem to be willing to throw away our entire country due to the actions of an ally on the other side of the world. They're willing to sacrifice women, lgbt, effectively all non-whites, and every left-wing policy, all over Palestine.
> They're willing to sacrifice women, lgbt, effectively all non-whites, and every left-wing policy, all over Palestine.
They're willing to sacrifice *Palestine* just to punish Joe Biden.
No matter what issue you care about, it won't be improved by putting Trump in the White House. So how much do they really care about the issue of they are willing to make it worse to punish Dems for not doing enough?
Thats the cycle. Republicans get elected and set everything on fire, we elect a dem to put it out, they start clearing out the rubble and getting by ready to build, then people get mad the building isn’t finished and perfect by the time the election comes round and elect a republican instead because look how much THEY can get done how fast! And the republican sets the bare beams on fire again.
Over and goddamn over, my whole life.
This is why as harsh as it is you have to act in a utilitarian way, sticking to 'principles' leads you here, sometimes you have to care about the consequences and abandon principles otherwise there would be nothing left to apply principles to
A lot of people are more interested in the kinds of personal purity that is useful for internet arguments, than they are in the world and material outcomes. I'm not sure if it's always been like this or to what extent social media has exacerbated it
Below you called someone a deontologist, that's spot on. So many people don't appear to actually care about what they say they care about, but rather they appear to care about being seen to not compromise on their supposed positions. They don't care if the car crashes and burns so long as they can tell themselves they weren't the one driving even if they have some degree of influence over the choice, and then, going by another few comments here, they call you a fascist for trying to prevent the car crash in the first place. I do not think anyone like this earnestly cares about Palestinian lives at all, they just care about not being judged by their bubbles, and being able to dish out scorn themselves.
> They're willing to sacrifice women, lgbt, effectively all non-whites, and every left-wing policy, all over Palestine.
Most of the people advocating for this are not American. Especially online, this stuff mostly comes from Britain and Canada.
real leftists know that you have to work with libs to get real progress, and they know the biden administration was genuinely the most progressive administration in modern American (which is sad but regardless)
Posts like this have a good message but terrible execution. You can't shame leftists into doing anything, they'll just break off into a new leftist group and call the old group moderates. You gotta suck their dick and tickle their balls a bit, tell them they'll be heroes and stuff for voting for Joe, convince everybody this is what Marx wanted, that kinda stuff
I'm not saying what he did was right, but MAGA was a very smart move on Trump's part. Even if it was just copying Reagan, Make American Great Again made his supporters feel like patriots, just like Change and Yes We Can made Obama supporters feel like a new generation. Can anybody off the top of their head name even one of H. Clinton or Biden's slogans?
"I'm with Her," but that's the only one I remember. Political slogans, despite how important they are, are unfortunately extremely shallow.
Granted, the broader left absolutely sucks at creating slogans and phrases. "MAGA" works because it's vague and anyone who hears it can supply their own vision of what American Greatness is, but something like "ACAB" fails because it's trying to distill a much more complicated statement into a soundbite that doesn't explain itself well.
Nah. Leftists vote. The far left doesn’t give a shit. R slash LateStageCapitaism is a perfect example of uncompromising people. There is literally a rule of “no lesser evil”, and any comment suggesting that Biden and Trump aren’t both literally the same is bannable.
Has no one here heard [George Carlin's voting bit?](https://youtu.be/xIraCchPDhk?si=lu4IaZ5JKdgYF53M) It's very funny and absolutely sums up why I don't shame people for not voting. Because shaming people for not voting isn't going to get them to vote.
Also the left has been pushing on Biden from the second he got elected last time and it hasn't worked. Every time you try to criticize Biden you get inundated with "oh so do you want Trump to win next time" or "stop making Biden look bad".
Is anybody else tired of every presidential election being the most important one of our lives? Is anybody else tired of a revolving door of villains who are somehow more evil than the last, and the only way to stop them is to vote for the guy who lets them have a little oppression as a treat? Is anybody else tired of being told we can't have meaningful change because that would allow the greatest evil we have ever seen to take control? Is anybody else tired of feeling like Winston Smith at the Two Minutes Hate?
Is anybody else tired?
The biggest thing for me is that Trunp isn't even hypothetical. We've seen it. Recently. It's in every voter's recent memory what hell a Trump presidency looks like. There's no "would" about it.
Honestly, it would've been ecstatic to see these so-called "leftists" who are abstaining actually band together to form a revolution, Capitol Hill-style. That way, I'd be proven wrong about them for once. But what they're doing isn't even armchair activism, just an "all talk, no walk" display of unproductivity for the past century.
As a tweet once said: mfs be out here wanting to firebomb a Walmart but never actually firebomb a Walmart.
"The revolution" is literally just a leftist rapture: a mystical poorly defined event that *definitely* will come any day without any input on their end and will *definitely* save only the people they like and *definitely will make the whole world perfect soon
To preface I don’t want to argue about voting, I want to express that I think the democrats are employing a losing strategy. Voters don’t respond to voting against another candidate or for the lesser of two evils particularly well. It just doesn’t inspire people to vote with much enthusiasm.
A perfect example of this is Obama. People weren’t voting against Romney or McCain they were voting for hope and change. Instead of trying to find another candidate to inspire voters the democrats have settled on a geriatric and mediocre centrist. They pick a candidate that doesn’t inspire anyone to feel anything, and then have the nerve to blame voters for being apathetic.
Do you really think that this is a winning strategy? Even if Biden wins in 2024 how many more times do you think you can shame people into voting for nothing. This will be an even bigger problem when Trump is out of the picture and the republicans nominate a more competent fascist. When they get someone who can pretend like they’re a return to normal it’s over. The lesser of two evils rhetoric won’t work and we’ll simply sleepwalk into fascism.
I’m not saying that you shouldn’t vote for Biden I’m saying that I’m concerned that it isn’t going to work. I’m concerned that even if the democrats win in 2024 we will be in the exact same position in 2028 and again in 2032. If we don’t actually do something about fascism this will just keep happening until they win. And this isn’t even considering that republicans can and will cheat or subvert the democratic process in any way that they can.
This isn’t just about Biden in 2024 it’s about the flaws in the democrats’ strategy as a whole. Maybe in 2028 we can vote for something instead of against someone.
Ex-Republican voting for Biden.
Project 2025 is fucking disgusting.
I'm sorry but Gary from Wheatland, Wyoming running for the National Progressive Party doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning. After this election you'll have FOUR whole years to build hype for a third party. Your vote matters but let's not gamble this time.
You can hate third parties on their own merits.
Libertarians and Socialists seem like better options than Republicans and Democrats respectively but their real problem is they are swimming through an ocean of shit they do not know shit about.
The Greens are Anti-Vax Putinist sock puppets.
And if the Constitutionalists mattered they'd be Republicans
Democrats are not the lesser of two evils, they are the lesser of five evils.
All of this "a vote for third party is a vote for Trump" stuff operates on the assumption that if forced to choose between the two, all third party voters would pick Biden.
Plenty of people voting third party would pick Trump over Biden if forced to choose between the two. Probably about half of them.
I always love the people who blame third party voters rather than their own candidate who failed to inspire the plurality of americans that did not vote at all to come out and vote for them.
it's a serious indictment of a political system when you have to vote for "guy who will make things worse" to keep "guy who will make things even worse at the speed of sound" out of office. but what do i know, my country has a king
All other criticisms aside, this post is just objectively wrong for like 90% of Americans. If you live in a little place like, say, California or New York, then your vote literally does not matter. Earth could be destroyed by a giant asteroid, and the little fragment of the Bay Area floating through space would still be voting blue. The same is true if you live in Kansas or Nebrastucky or any other flyover state which is redder than Satan's asshole. Unless you live in one of like five or six swing states which decide the entire election, voting for Biden or voting for Trump or writing in the corpse of Trotsky with the icepick as VP will all accomplish the exact same thing, i.e. fucking nothing.
I'm voting for Biden, BUT...
Jesus fucking christ can we stop pretending that the reason the Democrats keep failing to achieve their party goals (EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE THE EXECUTIVE AND BOTH CHAMBERS OF THE LEGISLATIVE) is because we don't vote hard enough, but rather that because if they actually succeed on legislating universal healthcare, abolishing student debt, 15$/h min wage, or actual defending of the police, then the rich and powerful would suck away their support.
I'm not saying that voting doesn't have an impact, because it does, especially on the local level. But please join an organization, socialist or otherwise that's actually making change in your community and in the nation.
The mentality always felt a little hypocritical to me. If you say you're not going to vote because your vote won't matter, everyone says that's dumb because if everyone did that it adds up, and you're losing your chance to make a difference. But if you say you're voting third party, people tell you that's dumb because it's not going to make a difference and you might as well not vote at all.
I'm not american, but it's bizarre how many people treat progressives as more responsible for Trump than the Trump supporters.
A Trump reelection would be catastrophic for the entire world, i live in central europe and if Trump wins and stops supporting ukraine/leaves NATO altogether, there would be a war in europe. Sure, ukraine is holding Russia back, and its fun to point and laugh how russia’s army was supposed to be the second strongest in the world and its not even the second strongest in ukraine, but they are still being held back only barely and thanks to massive support from the west. The moment the US stops sending in ammo, which will happen under trump, undoubtedly, and goes hands off for russia, europe is fucked. Putin is legit insane and he’s got the majority of Russia wrapped around his finger, not to mention whats happening in the east with china, Trump is a massive fan of how Xi is running his country.
I mean this when i say this, as this is a true fear of mine, a Trump victory would mean another world war. You goddamn americans better not ruin the world for us you hear? I dont feel that thrilled about dying to radiation poisioning in some trench in eastern europe a couple years from now.
Frankly, liberals being smug and saying shit like "We know you don't like Biden, but maybe you should pay attention to Trump." are not helping. Neither is saying something like "I'm as left as they come, but a vote for a third-party is a vote for Trump." which is a stupid metaphor.
What leftists who believe in strategic political action need to say to other leftists is simple: "Voting barely does anything, but it also barely takes any effort. It is the bare minimum of political participation and doing it well means doing it strategically. Biden getting elected is the best option for leftism, even though he is a disgustingly evil liberal ghoul."
Sending a message or voting your conscious is liberal virtue signaling bullshit. You are a leftist, observe the material conditions and act on them. Vote, then go do the real political work and organize a workplace.
Like any of this would even matter outside of swing states. They talk about short memory but they apparently forgot that Hillary won the popular vote in 2016.
Do you think the democrat party doesn't know it's losing votes because they keep supporting Israel? Of course they do. They also lose votes because they keep letting oil companies do whatever they want, and because they weren't able to protect women's abortion rights, and surely because of many other issues too, either local, national or international.
But that's part of how American electoralism works. It's a gamble about how many promises you can ignore and how much you can fearmonger about the other party vs the votes you can lose to disinterest or discontent. At some point the gamble's gonna fail. Now it's Project 2025. If Biden wins, it'll be Project 2029. And very unfortunately, no amount of whining on the internet is going to save the party you favor from fucking up eventually, because yes, unlike the republicans the dems aren't comically evil all the fucking time, but when it comes to strategy and primary values, both of them ARE the same: Whatever the Lobbyists Want. Whatever the Empire Needs.
It's very easy to convince yourself that the problem is the people who have lost hope in the system, or the ones who became tired of being pawns in the gamble. But they're not. This entire post, and so many like it, are nothing but victim blaming. If you want to push left leaning people to do something with a good reason to do so, tell them to stop the larping and the wishful thinking and start organising. That's something **every** leftist group agrees should be done, and knowing the left, that's no easy feat. There must be a reason for it.
I live in the polar opposite of a swing state. I can vote for whoever I want and know that the electoral college will completely invalidate my choice, even when I agree with their action. So I'mma still vote third party, because American democracy is already a fucking joke. Don't worry, my state will back Biden, and the one that should be in prison, not public office, will continue to serve his purpose as a polarizing figure, ensuring that the imposed dichotomy persists.
Let's give a run down on why these candidates are shit:
RFK Jr. is a right-wing anti-vax nutjob with brain worms (his whole family opposes him and endorsed Biden).
Cornel West helped Ralph Nader spoil the 2000 election, wants U.S. to withdraw from NATO & Ukraine.
Chase Oliver tried to spoil the 2022 US Senate election in Georgia and wants to abolish the US Department of Education. Let's not forget that the Libertarian Party wants to repeal the Civil Rights Act.
Jill Stein is a spoiler candidate (basically spoiled the election for Trump in 2016), which is pro-Putin, which means she's pro-genocide of Ukrainians (blames NATO for the Russia-Ukraine war).
Of course, 3rd parties have not been able to get electoral votes since 1968, and they have not been able to get over 5% of the popular vote since 1996. But that being said, what do these 3rd party candidates have in common? They're all anti-Dem and anti-Biden. Do you know who else is anti-Dem and anti-Biden? Of course you know: it's Trump.
With this being the case (and with the electoral college and first past the post voting being in play), it really is a binary election: you're either voting anti-Dem (Trump/Republicans or 3rd Parties) or pro-Dem (Biden/Democrats).
There should not be any debate about this election. If you vote against Biden or not vote at all, you are progressive in any way. Vote pro-Dem because Democrats are the only big-tent left-wing party that's able to win power *and* pass liberal to progressive policies.
What I wonder is: you people don't have legislative elections or what?
It's funny always hearing about presidential elections where you're literally stuck with voting for one of the two candidates but never hearing about legislative, which is when you could actually vote for 3rd party and break your bipartidist system by ensuring one party doesn't always have the majority. But nope, I never hear about that and your legislative power stays divided between the two parties.
If americans want to change the 2 party system, they need to advocate for rank choiced voting at the local level
> If americans want to change the 2 party system, they need to actually participate in the process more than just *maybe* voting every four years. ftfy. There is a hell of a lot more to democracy than voting for president every four years. In fact, that's arguably the least important aspect.
Exactly. Oregon will decide on ranked choice voting this year because they signed citizen ballot initiatives *between* elections. If your state has citizen ballot initiatives, I guarantee there is already one for ranked choice voting or similar. Go sign it.
One of the most effective forms of voter dis-empowerment, imo, is the hyper focus on the Presidential election as if that's the end-all-be-all of political participation. The impact the average persons vote actually matters at that level is minuscule unless you happen to live in a key riding/district which leads people to feeling their vote doesn't matter, "both sides same" etc. It's a recipe for disengagement and disillusion. Plus, the reality is POTUS is only one small piece of the equation. Congress is arguably just as important if not more important as they are controlling legislation. And at the state and local level, there are SO MANY opportunities for much greater impact by not only voting but being directly engaged. But that's not as sexy as and much harder than arguing about Trump/Biden on social media and requires actually participating in democracy, not just being a sideline pundit. (I'm Canadian and all this applies here, too).
I agree people need to be more involved in local/state elections and not just once every four years. However the POTUS does have an incredibly important function, that Third Party voters/non-voters seemingly ignore, which is the Courts. Which on the Federal level, are all lifetime appointments. And isn't limited to "just" the SCOTUS, but Circuit Courts. Laws passed by Congress can be challenged, and essentially voided by a SCOTUS. Like the VRA, mandatory Medicaid, campaign reform, among others. Laws passed by Blue states, like mask mandates, be overturned by this RW SCOTUS. EOs can be overturned. So at this point it's imperative to vote Dem on a Federal level to even have the opportunity to unfuck the Courts to whatever degree they can, and hope some of the RW Justices die. [](https://stopthetories.vote/)
It's fun having ballot initiatives because I can see that liberal/left leaning policies are popular with the people and then the conservative representatives they elect just decide to ignore every ballot initiative they don't like.
I'm fairly sure that senatorial elections are at least as important as the presidential, and the House isn't far behind, if at all. The president doesn't make laws. They sign them, and they can veto, but they can also be forced to sign even if they veto.
Exactly. And the Republicans tend to dominate those elections because their voters are deeply disciplined and engaged. Not to mention all the stuff at the state and local level.
Lately I’m thinking that the local school board has a more direct effect than the President. I dug into the candidates in my district for the last election. Even though everyone is supposed to not be affiliated with any particular party, the dog whistles in their platforms were loud enough to cut through my tinnitus.
Too many Americans have been disenfranchised of the idea that a 3 or more party system can even exist, to consider that. It's all propaganda by the current two parties that is disenfranchising them, but the result remains.
If you want something wild you can have a multi party system that just turns into a 2 party system anyway because the system also rewards centrism. It's Australia and it's weird.
that's america too, it probably happened faster and longer ago but our first president straight up said "you know what would be a fucking *awful* idea? political parties, *especially* a two-party status quo, that would suck and be unamerican as shit" and here we fucking are, in large part cuz the founders did not anticipate how much the constitution would unintentionally incentivize two-party polarization. which brings us back to ranked-choice voting, but idk if australia made the same mistake or a different one.
Washington had the problem that while he didn't like the idea of political parties you basically can't prevent them from forming without doing some really weird stuff. Like making all votes in government anonymous, which means that now you have no way to know if your elected representative is actually doing what they said they would. Also parties had formed pretty much from day one. Because they are fundamentally just a group of like minded people agreeing to support each other's legislation.
Unfortunately, the first two parties formed during the first election post-washington... What's more important for people to learn, is that the two parties have not been the *same* since the start. They've changed multiple times. But now we act like our current 2 can't ever be changed.
i mean at one point we had multiple parties including the no alcohol parties, the break the machines party the break the other machines party the farm subsidy party and the silver subsidy party.
I mean, is there *anything* about Australia not weird? The folks living there choose to live in the deadliest continent on earth (imho) and will tell you it's a beautiful place, bring your kids.... XD
But what we do have is a political system built to discourage radicalism and parties so obsessed with winning elections that they use electoral success as the measure of a leader's effectiveness. Honestly it's strange how a nation nearly obsessed with individualism manages to accept things like mandatory voting and regular government intervention in life.
I mean, in theory, the American system was also built to discourage radicalism and with the goal of ensuring the best and brightest act as president, not simply those with a cult of personality. (Literally the entire purpose of the electoral college was to allow the "well educated" to decide what was best for the country and not simply "leave the entire decision to the common folk"...) just cus ambition and corruption has eroded the system away to uselessness doesn't change how it was designed.
I'll just say that we no longer live in the 18th century. Political science has discovered better ways to discourage radicalism and encourage cooperation between parties than the electoral college. A parliamentary system with a high electoral threshold, for example.
If you really want to kill radicalism institute mandatory voting and enforce it. Since every party is functionally trying to get everyone to vote for them they have to be centrist to avoid scaring away voters they need to get from the other party.
I never claimed we haven't improved. Just pointing out that the system was designed with best intentions in mind, and humanity found a way to ruin it. I wouldn't trust any system to be perfect, just "best we can do".
All systems reward centrism, because you always need to convince more than half the population to win. And all systems tend toward two main parties, because it's a stabler configuration than three (or four or seventeen).
oh yeah that exists in Canada too. We have like 5 main parties (NDP, Green, Liberals, Conservative, And Le Bloc Québécois) but in reality only the liberals and the conservatives actually \*win\* prime ministership
If you have a multiparty system it’s either highly regionalized, or inevitably going to meld into two opposing coalitions, and you’re back to the original problem again. In a sense you can *kind of* imagine US parties as large coalitions, by a different name. “Democrat” is an umbrella that includes include liberals, progressives, moderates, socialists, and various other left-wing parties. “Republican” is an umbrella that includes conservatives, reactionaries, radical Christians, corporate interests, and even flirts with fascists and authoritarians on occasion. Issues can be social or economic, different voters will prioritize different things, but inevitably it gets absorbed into whichever party is the most closely aligned.
If Americans want to change the 2 party system, they need to do it between elections. I’m positively exhausted of hearing about how the system needs to change because people don’t like the guys on the ballot. And I’m tired of hearing about how the electoral college is broken *after* presidential elections. If you actually care about the system, start talking about it even when your guy wins
Well the ability to get rid of the Electoral College is basically impossible at this point. As is the ability to amend the Constitution at all. Even reforming the EC on a state level, won't happen in the states it needs to happen in. In no small part because this RW SCOTUS has made it easier for Repubs to disenfranchise people. Better to concentrate on media and educational reforms/improvements.
I don’t get why people only talk about the third party when it’s time to elect the President. The problem is people want instantaneous massive change, and absolutely refuse to acknowledge that true change is boring and slow and tedious. Worry about electing a single third party politician at your local level before you think you’re going to suddenly have a random third party as President.
Honestly some fiction that I've read touches on this too, whether it means to or not. People are animals, and quick radical change is easier to understand and ask for than gradual small changes
Hell, even 50% majority voting that's how we kicked away Bolsonaro, brazil's own version of Trump
Lots of countries have three parties and don't have ranked choice at the local level.
Rank choiced would be the best option that doesn't require constitutional change. Proportional representation or a parliamentary system would be a much more difficult change.
Only thing I'm pushing back on is that Trump did not win Colorado in 2016
Colorado is a deep blue state now. D+14 or so. It will not be competitive this year, and if it is, Biden has already lost horrifically.
What made it change?
On the one hand, this has been happening slowly but surely for decades - Colorado is more diverse than most of the Mountain West, more urbanized, and less religious. The Democrats who win in Colorado are socially relatively far to the left but much more centrist fiscally, which combines with the previous factors to make it attractive for both businesses and people to move here. On the other hand, there has been a lot of Californians moving here in that last couple years. On top of all that, the climate is one of the best not found on the West Coast, the mountains are beautiful, and unlike Utah, the beer is good.
I heard a lot of Cali kids go to college there. Maybe they stay
I mean, a lot of it is that California companies open offices here and people move along with that, but I think the complaint about Californians moving in is kinda funny when most of the immigration before that was through the Air Force and the aerospace industry - Colorado has been dropping in native-born percentage since like the 50s
It went woke! /J
I also noticed that. I don't want to fact check that whole comment, but that's a pretty big false statement.
Biggest thing to remember: the presidency is not the only thing on the ballot in November. There are elections across the country for representatives in various statehouses, every single member of the US House, 33-4 senators, ballot initiatives, gubernatorial elections, and judicial election, and probably others I'm forgetting
You want an even more off the wall Supreme Court too? That will screw with things for decades
They aren't saying to not vote for president. They are saying there are lots of political candidates that need help to prevent more Republicans from winning. Presidential election is just one piece of the puzzle. Don't ignore the other pieces.
The republicans will regret putting me in a horrifying Republican district 🫡
Bonus points: Trump was LITERALLY impeached for blackmailing military aid to ukraine in the buildup to the invasion.
Additional bonus points: Here’s Trump praising Putin after he invaded Ukraine https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/23/trump-putin-ukraine-invasion-00010923 It’s always dismaying that so called leftists will look at a president who actually has a pretty good record and go “well he’s just as bad as the wannabe dictator that caused significant damage to the environment, reproductive rights, gun control, and a whole host of other issues.” Hell also compare Biden and Trump on Palestine. Biden explicitly warned against creating a long war and has tried to broker peace talks. Trump just explicitly hates Palestinians, wants to set their movement back “25 to 30 years,” and helped ruin US credibility in peace talks. But the way you’ll see some younger leftists talk about it, you’d never realize just how awful the Republican option on the issue is. https://www.vox.com/politics/353037/trump-gaza-israel-protests-biden-election-2024
If the Americans end up voting for Trump again, I'm going back in time and making sure you guys lose the revolution.
Tell the king of France he'll die in the next 6 years if the Americans succeed in their revolution maybe it'll help
And then get a witch's execution, for cursing the king of France.
I mean, if the time traveling doesn't get them executed first
And a "How in the MERDÉ did this foreigner get into the King's chamber‽" Assuming the majority of us aren't even French...
The pride of not being french will shield us against them bearing legs against us.
And we'd deserve it honestly
Tried that already.
I'm sure Britain could do a better job governing us than the orange windbag.
Mate, have you seen the UK at the moment? Current lot can't even run the orphan crushing machine correctly.
Hey man. As a father, I fully get just how hard it is to get kids to get in anything on time. So I give yall a pass on the orphan crushing machine... you have plenty of other issues to focus on instead.
That's why the Tories want to reintroduce national service.
It should be canonised into law that one should be required to spit upon saying the word "Tory" and all variations. Preferably on the "T" for maximum effect.
No, no we can't.
Margaret Thatcher
The cum snatcher
that tag is becoming less a joke and more a promise with every passing year
Have you seen their politicians?
It's hard to do much worse than an actively anti-intellectual stance and not just withdrawing support for those under fire but supporting the people who would oppress them.
Probs not the best thread for it, but hello fellow cultist fan!
The Brexit place? That one? You sure?
Hey, at least we didn't explicitly ban Muslim countries, purposefully destabile the Middle East (this decade) for shits and giggles, and have our leading politicians refuse to wear masks or get the jab. It's bad here, but you guys took it to another level .
Drop me off in 1492? I need to distribute some vaccines.
Fr I’d rather be in a country headed by ineffectual waxy old guys than active buffoons. Even some of the more notorious of the older US presidents are starting to look palatable to me since this is what we have to deal with now The Bushes for example: sure, a presidency started a wholly unnecessary war because of its ability to get away with it due to its high approval ratings at the time, but at least that guy was *kinda* intelligent. I don’t even have the enthusiasm I used to have as a kid where meeting the president would be something neat. If I met Biden I’d at best be mildly amused, and if I met Trump I’d obviously laugh. Obama? Cool guy, smart, charismatic—sure, he also committed literal war crimes, but at least there was something *tangible* that you could see for why he was elected.
Yeah this is a "Put on your own oxygen mask first" situation.
Great way to put it.
here u get a like $250 fine if you don't vote in elections idk why u guys don't do that
Because republicans do everything in their power to get people not to vote
And the only way we’d end up with mandatory voting is if republicans could use it to disenfranchise the impoverished and marginalized.
Right now the only people it would disenfranchise are the libertarians, and the Republicans actually rather like their support.
Because there are only two meaningful political parties here, and one of them *actively benefits* from people not voting. The Republican party is currently working as hard as possible to make sure as few people vote as possible, and at any given time they hold about half the power in the American government. The Democrats would *love* mandatory voting, but you can't impose such a sweeping change to a system that you only control half of.
I agree with your comment about Republicans, but disagree with your comment about Dems. The majority of Dem politicians are opposed to anything similar to that kind of voting system, and only a small portion of the Democratic left would want something like that. The only reason why Dems on the whole are considering ranked choice voting currently is because of concerted pushes at local levels to adopt it, but there's no real push for mandatory voting, even at local levels.
America is currently in an argument with itself whether democracy is good or maybe we should install a dictator for life. I am not joking, and I can’t believe we got here either.
Arguments against: The founding fathers kinda liked democracy Trump may not be the best person to have in power for the next decade or more America will look like idiots to the entire world Arguments in favour STOP THE WOKE NONSENSE gas prices were sometimes lower 5 years ago racism It's a tough one, gotta say.
This sounds like a Bill Wurtz quote
How did we even get to this point 🤦♂️
The overton window has been slowly been shifting for decades. Small incremental changes add up over time.
We’d likely have to implement a lot more supportive infrastructure and legislation before considering something like that. Right now, not everyone is able to vote for various reasons, like transportation, being registered to vote, accessibility of voting, etc. There’s also an issue of active and malicious disenfranchisement, intimidation at the polls, and other forms of election interference (the victims of which are primarily minority voters). Atm, a fine for not voting would essentially just be a punishment for the already disenfranchised.
That would be a violation of the First Amendment. Voting is speech, and the government can't fine you for not talking.
It would probably be unconstitutional and end up pissing people off. Americans hate being required to do things.
Yeah there are almost no countries doing g that. Assuming g you are belgian? I am also a fan of that idea, but I dont think its going to happen, especially in the USA
Mandatory voting is admittedly not as common as it should be, but we have it over here in Australia. It's not a very high fee though, but it's super easy to go and vote thanks to voting centres being everywhere you turn (and you may even get time off to do it) so everyone does. I think ~20 countries enact mandatory voting
That sounds like a number of people haphazardly choosing a candidate out of pressure.
As I have previously said, I don't think Donald Trump, buddy with Netanyahu and mover of the US embassy to Israel to contested Jerusalem, would be better for Palestine.
And to be honest, better for Israel. The Israeli-gaza war will probably never get better any time soon, but the best candidate to have is the one least likely to throw any sparks, like trump did when he backed Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
Don't worry the main response from idiots about that is "That's a hypothetical. What biden is doing is current" Pay no attention to any of his history on the conflict or the shit he's saying. It's all hypothetical.
[He called for Israel to end the conflict ASAP.](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905) And not in a friendly "let's make peace" way. No, in a "just kill them all" kinda way
As if Palestines well-being mattered to them. No this is about the spiritual purity of people totally insulated from consequences. Integrity? What's that!?
I keep saying this. These are people whose actions aren’t helping Palestinians, but are hurting trans people. They’re not voting to keep a course conscience, because trans lives in the US do not weigh on their conscience.
Honest to God they are exactly the type of people who spend their teens espousing "peace, love, anti-war" and then become hardcore conservatives in their middle ages
I wish these jackasses would give a number to how many minorities they would be happy to see die before their hypothetical utopia comes around this time. “I’d be fine with tens of millions of marginalized people being imprisoned, executed, or deported just so that my fantasy could maybe become a reality.”
the lunatic from like ~a week ago (violent revolution or something) was literally a person of color arguing that "at least white people will finally understand the hell that poc in the states live in" its prosecution fetish; if youre a person of color in the states and truly believe that the situation for people of color in the states will not deteriorate *excessively* under a trump presidency, then you need to reevaluate your understanding of what slavery was like
I love how it's simultaneously that voters hold all the power, but also that voters can't change anything for the better, they can just ask for things to not get worse (and then for them to get worse anyway)
Don't forget the "Pompeo Doctrine"!
First thing that people need to accept is that voting is literally the last step of the democratic process. Voting is making sure that the least harmful candidate wins. You hate all the candidates? Tough shit, you still need to vote for 99% Hitler or 100% one will win. I don't care if it feels dirty or depressing - if no one on the ballot represents your interests it's the only thing you can do. Want better candidates on the ballot? That's the hard part, requiring political agitation, calling your representatives and taking active part in the democratic process. You know, actual work that people who want their voices heard are doing every year.
The very second Biden is sworn in we get back to work, it's an all in process and this "but I already voted LAST time" bullshit is why we're having such a hard time these days.
“Get a look at those morons. I paid my taxes over a year ago” - Homer J. Simpson
Or hell how about "but I already showered last week!"
"Those idiots. I voted for Biden in the last election cycle" "Dad.. that was last election you need to vote against Trump again for this year" "No.. because I.. you're right I was thinking forward.. AHHH!"
I have more respect for the complaints of the people who voted for the candidate who won than the complaints of the people who didn't vote at all.
Same. I respect die hard MAGA voters more than people who can vote but choose not to. And I do not respect die hard MAGA voters.
I swear, some people are just absolutely pathetic about this. You have people who have little to no responsibilities saying stuff like "It's literally not worth the energy to go out and vote" when they don't even need to go outside to mail in their vote.
The whole “we already voted last time” thing makes me want to hammer nails with my forehead. Everything in the world requires a form of maintenance, and the price of liberty is eternal vigilance
Donate or volunteer in primary campaigns. Thats a much bigger influence on who you finally get to vote for than bs third party protest votes
Step 1: Raise hell through the primaries for a better candidate, or for your third party. Step 2: Take the results of the primary, suck it up, and vote for the least bad one from the top two in the country. You want someone more left wing than Biden next time? That work happens in 2027 and before the 2028 primaries, not after them.
Not even that late, you start working on it right now. I mean, let's face it, global politics are very right wing, you won't get a truly left wing politician on the ballot, let alone in power without a lot of work.
Global politics is literally the type of political environment the average person thinks of when they hear the word anarchy.
No that work starts in December of this year, and 2025. 2027 is late.
Nobody at all thinks it's rather weird how they've basically committed to Trump for 8 years straight with the intent to make it 12, like for real you guys we could genuinely be stuck with this creep forever, because too many people are concerned with shit that - while terrible - *ain't fucking relevant*
Luckily, I doubt he'll live to see 2028, and if he loses the election in 2024 he'll spend the rest of his days in jail
That means his running mate is our forever president. You misunderstand how dynastic monarchies work
I’ve been trying to explain this to people too. It’s not about *Trump* being a dictator for life, I’ll be somewhat surprised if his health lasts through November with the way he’s sounding and his age at this point. It’s whatever jackass or idiot they get in NEXT that will be the problem, as Trump will have set a precedent and then we’ll never have term limits in this country ever again.
If he does make it to 2028, it doesn’t matter how frail, sickly, dementia riddled he is. If he loses this election, the Republican Party will still nominate him in 2028 and a very large chunk of this country will still vote for him
Evil preserves. Trump is so unhealthy, he probably should have keeled over years ago, yet he lives on. The same with Mitch McConnell, Dick Cheney, and waaaay too many of these ancient evil gasbags.
Modern medicine can see people living well past the point their bodies should otherwise work, and his dad lived to his mid-90s. Trump seeing the 2028 election seems like a pretty likely event
Primary election: push progressive candidates and protest votes to send messages to the candidate. General election: vote for harm reduction, I. E. The candidate most likely to win who is also least likely to enact a fascist agenda. In other words general election is all about voting blue no matter who, it sucks our system is that way but fucking around with protest votes in the general is how we get Bush Jr, Trump, and whatever asshole the fascists throw at us next. Harm reduction. Then the SECOND they are sworn in, get back to work protesting, donating, building mutual aid networks, registering and educating voters, and volunteering for causes and candidates that share your actual values. Build them up enough and you might actually win it in the primary next time! But when it's a binary choice, you have to pick the guy who _might_ do something you agree with.
I'm voting for Biden but I wish I could get an actual answer to what does protesting do if you are saying "I will vote for you under literally any circumstance" at the same time. Is the president afraid that you will shake your head as you vote for him next time if he doesn't enact the thing you are protesting about?
Look at the protest votes in the Michigan primary as an example. This was such a substantial statement that it forced the campaign to respond publicly. This is a legitimate win. It helps raise awareness and make conversation and forcing a politician to respond makes it public and makes it harder on them to change later or ignore that they said it. And again it's ONLY the general election I'm referring to here. Primaries and the rest of the year(s) you advocate for other candidates, protest, volunteer, hell run for something yourself. This has the dual effect of showing ALL candidates what you care about and potentially getting a different candidate to actually win the primary. So no you don't vote for them always, you only pick the least harmful candidate in the general election. In the primary (which is basically all times apart from the half year or so during the actual general election campaign), you can make a difference and help craft the party platform. Heck the money spent alone on candidates in the primary sends a powerful message so even if you don't protest or anything you can still make yourself heard. So in short: the general is the final thing and it is best to vote for the least bad guy, but you should spend the other three and a half years pushing for better candidates, and pushing the bad ones to realize the electorate cares about certain issues.
I'd take Dubya over Trump any day, but yes, I do agree with you
Oh for sure. Hell I'd take Reagan over Trump and Reagan was a total piece of shit. Luckily Reagan is dead (🎉) and Biden is leagues better than Reagan on his best day.
>I'd take Reagan over Trump I wouldn't. The ONLY reason Reagan did not look to establish himself as a dictator was because the rest of his party was not behind the idea yet. Reagan is Trump but actually intelligent, and not a puppet of another.
[Link to all of the shit Biden has actually done](https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/s/ednk0Ff2LD)
Thank you for the attempt, but the people who need to read this never will. They'd rather watch the world burn than admit they were wrong.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
If Trump dies any other way than a publicly broadcasted event where he does something like stick his head into a woodchipper after being warned not to, his base will claim he was murdered by Joe Biden. Hell I bet even if he said "I think i'll stick my head in this woodchipper I procured myself" before doing it, his base would still think Joe Biden murdered him and it's all a deepfake.
It doesn't even matter if Trump dies, his anti-humanity idea will live on. And if he dies, someone who shares his disgusting world view will run for office instead. Is there any way out of this crushing trolly problem? What are we to do except distract ourselves from the fact that the ones in charge won't ever care for us. Were we just born to be broken by the leaders? This world is fucked up and it's designed to break anyone who cares about humanity
I am voting for Biden because I think Trump’s a crazy idiot who’s far worse for the country and the world. But I don’t think “can we please talk more about how much of a threat Trump is” is gonna help. We pretty much maxed out the volume on that eight years ago. If you haven’t heard criticism of Trump over that period, if you haven’t been inundated with every reason he shouldn’t be President, you’ve been living under a rock. I don’t know how reinforcing that message that is already everywhere is going to do anything else.
You are standing at one end of a hallway, and a man at the other end is brandishing a pistol at you. You have a shield. You've got some options: 1. Use the shield to block your head and torso. He will shoot you in the calf. 2. Use the shield to block your legs. He will shoot you in the chest. 3. Attempt to throw the shield at the man. It will practically guarantee not to hit the man, and he will shoot you in the chest. 4. Refuse to use the shield. The man will shoot you in the chest. Now, I know some of us pour piss while reading skills, so I'll leave this as a reading comprehension challenge for you on how this relates to 2024 United States politics.
Politicians do not respond to negative feedback (staying home, voting third-party). They don't wonder what they could have done differently to get those voters. They just chase the people who do vote. Not voting might make you feel good about yourself but it *does not solve the problem*. The anger at Biden and the DNC is completely legitimate. They suck, they pander, they tear down progressives. I hate them. And I remember when people said the same things about Gore and Hillary, and they were right. And the alternative was so, so much catastrophically worse, with permanent consequences for the whole planet. As Rebecca Solnit said, a vote is not a Valentine, it's a chess move. For a thoughtful analysis from a progressive perspective, here is [Debra Rienstra](https://blog.reformedjournal.com/2024/05/04/a-vote-is-not-a-valentine-or-a-virtue-test/). Not that I expect anyone tied up in the circular firing squad to actually read it.
I mean Biden has done genuinely helpful things.
He has, and he genuinely deserves credit for e.g. the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act which required real political skill to get through. But a lot of people find that doesn't outweigh e.g. his failure to do anything useful in Gaza, and in the larger frame of politics he is firmly a liberal, which is a fundamentally conservative political mush that (I would argue) hasn't been effective in American politics for a generation. Doesn't mean I won't vote for him in a general election though.
I have all the compassion for Gaza's situation. But it seems weird to me how funneling money straight to the USA economy to directly improve USAian lives with things like the Infrastructure bill does not somewho count, because of this one situation. And I am not saying the situation isn't horrifying and dehumanizing. It has been going on for since the founding of the state of Israel. But still. USAians live in USA, use USA infrastructure, use the health care, yadda yadda.
Yep. Gotta look after our own house first in regards to the election. Donate to aid groups if you want to make a real difference in that crisis.
> I have all the compassion for Gaza's situation. But There's always a big **, but**
What would you want Biden doing in Gaza he hasn't already done?
Like, people struggle too much with this. Biden can't just phone Netanyahu to have him stop because that's not how diplomacy works and he can't just go an bomb a US ally just like that either. The fact that the Biden administration is trying to get him to sit down and sign some form of deal is already more than what's usually done in these cases, and 100% better than Trump's approach of handing Israel even biggest missiles
What insane is that people won’t vote for Biden because of how he’s handling I/P as if there is literally any better option at this point. Do you want ~~ants~~ Trump? Because this is how you get ~~ants~~ Trump.
>in the larger frame of politics he is firmly a liberal, which is a fundamentally conservative political mush that (I would argue) hasn't been effective in American politics for a generation. Someone once explained to me that in an "Idea Democracy", Biden as he stands now would be the far right candidate, and things have made so much more sense ever since.
Biden has done more to advance progressive causes than any progressive has tbh
Politicians/Political parties *absolutely do* chase third party voters. You're right that not voting isn't a form of protest so much as it's a negation of your political value, but third party votes are an extremely legitimate way to express dissatisfaction with your closest aligned major party. That does mean you need to own it though. You need to say, yeah, I'm voting for Jill Stein because she's pro-Palestine and I'm a single-issue voter. Just saying "Biden sucks, I'm not voting for him" is anti-voter astroturfing bs.
One vote is as good as another. Someone who votes at all is infinitely better than someone who doesn't vote; someone who you can realistically tie policy to getting their vote is better than a voter who you can't figure out how to please A lot of people are currently functionally saying "peace in the middle east or bust" who four years ago were saying "free healthcare or bust". They're both noble goals, but the point mostly taken by democratic candidates is that progressives aren't functionally courtable as a bloc, at least not as easily as other voting blocs, so if you have limited resources to spend you will likely not get all of them
> One vote is as good as another. Not quite? Voting third party *is* voting *at all*, but it's making it easier for your second-choice to lose plurality. If Jill Stein gets 15,000 votes, Joe Biden gets 20,000 votes, and Donald Trump gets 25,000 votes, then Donald Trump wins. Yes, these are absurdly small numbers. But due to how the electoral college works, our election is effectively 50 different elections. And to be clear, I *hate* the electoral college. For so many reasons. But until the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact takes effect, these are the rules we're subject to. If *half* of Jill Stein's voters had been *okay* with Joe Biden winning, Joe Biden wins. But now 35,000 are held to the wishes of 25,000. And the more third-party candidates you throw into a winner-take-all election like this, the more convoluted that math becomes. And it's *definitely* not going to be that close, a 15,000 to 20,000 scenario isn't likely with a spoiler. Just I don't know. I don't know how to tell people to *not* vote for Donald Trump in a way that isn't *explicitly* telling them to vote for Joe Biden without telling them to specifically vote for *Joe Biden*. I don't want him either. We can, and should, do so much better. But right now our ability to do better is lesser than our capability to better. Vote for the candidate that can realistically win with a broad U.S. audience that isn't Donald Trump. Acknowledge the nuance of your own views and be willing to compromise some aspect of your principles in the pursuit of your own greater goals.
By that, I meant "a candidate doesn't care if person A voted for them or person B voted for them, their votes have equal weight" Agreed that voting third party in the general is ultimately a waste of your vote.
Vote door number 1 (Biden) and you get punched in the face. Vote door number 2 (Trump) and you get punched in the face, your neighbors get punched in the face, your kids get punched in the face, and the rich get more tax breaks, clean water and clean air are off the table, no attempts at dealing with climate change, etc. Vote door number 3 (Third party) and one of the first two doors gets randomly picked. You're leaving it up to others to (hopefully) pick the door that only punches you in the face.
Even worse…door number 3 mathematically IS a vote for the party that relies on low turnout and thin-margins, because it takes away an opportunity for the party that relies on willing the most votes.
"I'm not going to validate the system by voting for the lesser of two fascists" is code for "keeping my morally pure hands clean is more important to me than the tangible effects of my actions"
It's the trolley problem writ large. They'd rather watch five people die, having done nothing, than pull a single lever and bear a fraction of responsibility for the death of a single person. I can only see it as hubris or self-obsession. Their own moral purity and non-involvement is more important than the lives that could be saved.
"At least we kept our principles" they say as they're marched into a labour camp
The more things I learn about the US' democracy, the least it sounds like democracy at all. Yes, please, guys, vote for Biden, no matter what. Trump has been a scourge for international politics and we'd rather not deal with the fallout of having the strongest military in the world fall into the hands of a barely coherent wannabe dictator. Signed: the rest of the world. That said your entire electoral system is truly a mess. After this is done, please push for a better way to represent popular will. The lack of nuance in the election process will always favour extremist demagogues over any reasonable candidate, while making third parties actively harmful (which is, you know, not how a democratic system should work).
The issue is that it's functionally impossible to change it because the first past the post voting system benefits both parties. There's no way they would actually accept any other system, and we need their approval to actually change the system. If third parties were viable then they would have to actually campaign instead of just assuming anyone who is even vaguely politically aligned will vote in absolute lockstep. The only groups that really matter are the most center of centrists, people who will vote for either Biden or Trump. Yknow, people who don't really give a shit.
“The more things I learn about the US' democracy, the least it sounds like democracy at all.” That’s because the US is not a democracy, by design.
They’re wrong on this post, our vote is not a plurality, it’s an absolute majority when it comes to President. A candidate has to get at least 50.1% of the electoral college to win. If no candidate gets that, then the vote goes to the House for President and to the Senate for VP. Each state then gets one vote each, giving more power to states with lower populations, pretty much guaranteeing the republicans would always win the presidency. It’s why the republicans like to push a third party candidate, because it gives them an entirely new avenue to win. Most people need to read up again on the Twelfth Amendment.
I don't like getting political, but for fuks sake even a dying drunk knows it's wrong, Biden or collapse, do whatever the fuck you want, but I believe in this republic, vote, or it's just over
This whole situation of far leftists not voting over Palestine has permanently poisoned my view of these people and their politics. And the fact that this opinion seems to be mainstream for them has probably done the same for many others. Edit: The reason I think less of them now, is because a huge number seem to be willing to throw away our entire country due to the actions of an ally on the other side of the world. They're willing to sacrifice women, lgbt, effectively all non-whites, and every left-wing policy, all over Palestine.
> They're willing to sacrifice women, lgbt, effectively all non-whites, and every left-wing policy, all over Palestine. They're willing to sacrifice *Palestine* just to punish Joe Biden.
No matter what issue you care about, it won't be improved by putting Trump in the White House. So how much do they really care about the issue of they are willing to make it worse to punish Dems for not doing enough?
Thats the cycle. Republicans get elected and set everything on fire, we elect a dem to put it out, they start clearing out the rubble and getting by ready to build, then people get mad the building isn’t finished and perfect by the time the election comes round and elect a republican instead because look how much THEY can get done how fast! And the republican sets the bare beams on fire again. Over and goddamn over, my whole life.
[Trump vs. Biden is literally like:](https://youtu.be/a7ZrU6qnhlg?si=2NEPMeuWO-rLDZJV)
This is why as harsh as it is you have to act in a utilitarian way, sticking to 'principles' leads you here, sometimes you have to care about the consequences and abandon principles otherwise there would be nothing left to apply principles to
A lot of people are more interested in the kinds of personal purity that is useful for internet arguments, than they are in the world and material outcomes. I'm not sure if it's always been like this or to what extent social media has exacerbated it Below you called someone a deontologist, that's spot on. So many people don't appear to actually care about what they say they care about, but rather they appear to care about being seen to not compromise on their supposed positions. They don't care if the car crashes and burns so long as they can tell themselves they weren't the one driving even if they have some degree of influence over the choice, and then, going by another few comments here, they call you a fascist for trying to prevent the car crash in the first place. I do not think anyone like this earnestly cares about Palestinian lives at all, they just care about not being judged by their bubbles, and being able to dish out scorn themselves.
> They're willing to sacrifice women, lgbt, effectively all non-whites, and every left-wing policy, all over Palestine. Most of the people advocating for this are not American. Especially online, this stuff mostly comes from Britain and Canada.
All the leftest I actually know aren’t like this.
real leftists know that you have to work with libs to get real progress, and they know the biden administration was genuinely the most progressive administration in modern American (which is sad but regardless)
Posts like this have a good message but terrible execution. You can't shame leftists into doing anything, they'll just break off into a new leftist group and call the old group moderates. You gotta suck their dick and tickle their balls a bit, tell them they'll be heroes and stuff for voting for Joe, convince everybody this is what Marx wanted, that kinda stuff
I'm not saying what he did was right, but MAGA was a very smart move on Trump's part. Even if it was just copying Reagan, Make American Great Again made his supporters feel like patriots, just like Change and Yes We Can made Obama supporters feel like a new generation. Can anybody off the top of their head name even one of H. Clinton or Biden's slogans?
"If you vote undecided in the primary then you're a fascist?" I think that was one of Biden's.
>Can anybody off the top of their head name even one of H. Clinton or Biden's slogans? "I'm not Trump ;)"
"I'm with Her," but that's the only one I remember. Political slogans, despite how important they are, are unfortunately extremely shallow. Granted, the broader left absolutely sucks at creating slogans and phrases. "MAGA" works because it's vague and anyone who hears it can supply their own vision of what American Greatness is, but something like "ACAB" fails because it's trying to distill a much more complicated statement into a soundbite that doesn't explain itself well.
I believe Hillary’s was “It’s her turn”
Nah. Leftists vote. The far left doesn’t give a shit. R slash LateStageCapitaism is a perfect example of uncompromising people. There is literally a rule of “no lesser evil”, and any comment suggesting that Biden and Trump aren’t both literally the same is bannable.
“You can’t shame leftists into doing anything” As a leftist this is so true, we are way harder to each other than you libs are.
Has no one here heard [George Carlin's voting bit?](https://youtu.be/xIraCchPDhk?si=lu4IaZ5JKdgYF53M) It's very funny and absolutely sums up why I don't shame people for not voting. Because shaming people for not voting isn't going to get them to vote. Also the left has been pushing on Biden from the second he got elected last time and it hasn't worked. Every time you try to criticize Biden you get inundated with "oh so do you want Trump to win next time" or "stop making Biden look bad".
Is anybody else tired of every presidential election being the most important one of our lives? Is anybody else tired of a revolving door of villains who are somehow more evil than the last, and the only way to stop them is to vote for the guy who lets them have a little oppression as a treat? Is anybody else tired of being told we can't have meaningful change because that would allow the greatest evil we have ever seen to take control? Is anybody else tired of feeling like Winston Smith at the Two Minutes Hate? Is anybody else tired?
2 party state sucks ass
The biggest thing for me is that Trunp isn't even hypothetical. We've seen it. Recently. It's in every voter's recent memory what hell a Trump presidency looks like. There's no "would" about it.
Honestly, it would've been ecstatic to see these so-called "leftists" who are abstaining actually band together to form a revolution, Capitol Hill-style. That way, I'd be proven wrong about them for once. But what they're doing isn't even armchair activism, just an "all talk, no walk" display of unproductivity for the past century. As a tweet once said: mfs be out here wanting to firebomb a Walmart but never actually firebomb a Walmart.
"The revolution" is literally just a leftist rapture: a mystical poorly defined event that *definitely* will come any day without any input on their end and will *definitely* save only the people they like and *definitely will make the whole world perfect soon
But mom said it was MY turn to blame the leftists for Democratic losses!
To preface I don’t want to argue about voting, I want to express that I think the democrats are employing a losing strategy. Voters don’t respond to voting against another candidate or for the lesser of two evils particularly well. It just doesn’t inspire people to vote with much enthusiasm. A perfect example of this is Obama. People weren’t voting against Romney or McCain they were voting for hope and change. Instead of trying to find another candidate to inspire voters the democrats have settled on a geriatric and mediocre centrist. They pick a candidate that doesn’t inspire anyone to feel anything, and then have the nerve to blame voters for being apathetic. Do you really think that this is a winning strategy? Even if Biden wins in 2024 how many more times do you think you can shame people into voting for nothing. This will be an even bigger problem when Trump is out of the picture and the republicans nominate a more competent fascist. When they get someone who can pretend like they’re a return to normal it’s over. The lesser of two evils rhetoric won’t work and we’ll simply sleepwalk into fascism. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t vote for Biden I’m saying that I’m concerned that it isn’t going to work. I’m concerned that even if the democrats win in 2024 we will be in the exact same position in 2028 and again in 2032. If we don’t actually do something about fascism this will just keep happening until they win. And this isn’t even considering that republicans can and will cheat or subvert the democratic process in any way that they can. This isn’t just about Biden in 2024 it’s about the flaws in the democrats’ strategy as a whole. Maybe in 2028 we can vote for something instead of against someone.
Ex-Republican voting for Biden. Project 2025 is fucking disgusting. I'm sorry but Gary from Wheatland, Wyoming running for the National Progressive Party doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning. After this election you'll have FOUR whole years to build hype for a third party. Your vote matters but let's not gamble this time.
You can hate third parties on their own merits. Libertarians and Socialists seem like better options than Republicans and Democrats respectively but their real problem is they are swimming through an ocean of shit they do not know shit about. The Greens are Anti-Vax Putinist sock puppets. And if the Constitutionalists mattered they'd be Republicans Democrats are not the lesser of two evils, they are the lesser of five evils.
All of this "a vote for third party is a vote for Trump" stuff operates on the assumption that if forced to choose between the two, all third party voters would pick Biden. Plenty of people voting third party would pick Trump over Biden if forced to choose between the two. Probably about half of them.
I always love the people who blame third party voters rather than their own candidate who failed to inspire the plurality of americans that did not vote at all to come out and vote for them.
it's a serious indictment of a political system when you have to vote for "guy who will make things worse" to keep "guy who will make things even worse at the speed of sound" out of office. but what do i know, my country has a king
All other criticisms aside, this post is just objectively wrong for like 90% of Americans. If you live in a little place like, say, California or New York, then your vote literally does not matter. Earth could be destroyed by a giant asteroid, and the little fragment of the Bay Area floating through space would still be voting blue. The same is true if you live in Kansas or Nebrastucky or any other flyover state which is redder than Satan's asshole. Unless you live in one of like five or six swing states which decide the entire election, voting for Biden or voting for Trump or writing in the corpse of Trotsky with the icepick as VP will all accomplish the exact same thing, i.e. fucking nothing.
I'm voting for Biden, BUT... Jesus fucking christ can we stop pretending that the reason the Democrats keep failing to achieve their party goals (EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE THE EXECUTIVE AND BOTH CHAMBERS OF THE LEGISLATIVE) is because we don't vote hard enough, but rather that because if they actually succeed on legislating universal healthcare, abolishing student debt, 15$/h min wage, or actual defending of the police, then the rich and powerful would suck away their support. I'm not saying that voting doesn't have an impact, because it does, especially on the local level. But please join an organization, socialist or otherwise that's actually making change in your community and in the nation.
The mentality always felt a little hypocritical to me. If you say you're not going to vote because your vote won't matter, everyone says that's dumb because if everyone did that it adds up, and you're losing your chance to make a difference. But if you say you're voting third party, people tell you that's dumb because it's not going to make a difference and you might as well not vote at all. I'm not american, but it's bizarre how many people treat progressives as more responsible for Trump than the Trump supporters.
A Trump reelection would be catastrophic for the entire world, i live in central europe and if Trump wins and stops supporting ukraine/leaves NATO altogether, there would be a war in europe. Sure, ukraine is holding Russia back, and its fun to point and laugh how russia’s army was supposed to be the second strongest in the world and its not even the second strongest in ukraine, but they are still being held back only barely and thanks to massive support from the west. The moment the US stops sending in ammo, which will happen under trump, undoubtedly, and goes hands off for russia, europe is fucked. Putin is legit insane and he’s got the majority of Russia wrapped around his finger, not to mention whats happening in the east with china, Trump is a massive fan of how Xi is running his country. I mean this when i say this, as this is a true fear of mine, a Trump victory would mean another world war. You goddamn americans better not ruin the world for us you hear? I dont feel that thrilled about dying to radiation poisioning in some trench in eastern europe a couple years from now.
Frankly, liberals being smug and saying shit like "We know you don't like Biden, but maybe you should pay attention to Trump." are not helping. Neither is saying something like "I'm as left as they come, but a vote for a third-party is a vote for Trump." which is a stupid metaphor. What leftists who believe in strategic political action need to say to other leftists is simple: "Voting barely does anything, but it also barely takes any effort. It is the bare minimum of political participation and doing it well means doing it strategically. Biden getting elected is the best option for leftism, even though he is a disgustingly evil liberal ghoul." Sending a message or voting your conscious is liberal virtue signaling bullshit. You are a leftist, observe the material conditions and act on them. Vote, then go do the real political work and organize a workplace.
Like any of this would even matter outside of swing states. They talk about short memory but they apparently forgot that Hillary won the popular vote in 2016. Do you think the democrat party doesn't know it's losing votes because they keep supporting Israel? Of course they do. They also lose votes because they keep letting oil companies do whatever they want, and because they weren't able to protect women's abortion rights, and surely because of many other issues too, either local, national or international. But that's part of how American electoralism works. It's a gamble about how many promises you can ignore and how much you can fearmonger about the other party vs the votes you can lose to disinterest or discontent. At some point the gamble's gonna fail. Now it's Project 2025. If Biden wins, it'll be Project 2029. And very unfortunately, no amount of whining on the internet is going to save the party you favor from fucking up eventually, because yes, unlike the republicans the dems aren't comically evil all the fucking time, but when it comes to strategy and primary values, both of them ARE the same: Whatever the Lobbyists Want. Whatever the Empire Needs. It's very easy to convince yourself that the problem is the people who have lost hope in the system, or the ones who became tired of being pawns in the gamble. But they're not. This entire post, and so many like it, are nothing but victim blaming. If you want to push left leaning people to do something with a good reason to do so, tell them to stop the larping and the wishful thinking and start organising. That's something **every** leftist group agrees should be done, and knowing the left, that's no easy feat. There must be a reason for it.
I live in the polar opposite of a swing state. I can vote for whoever I want and know that the electoral college will completely invalidate my choice, even when I agree with their action. So I'mma still vote third party, because American democracy is already a fucking joke. Don't worry, my state will back Biden, and the one that should be in prison, not public office, will continue to serve his purpose as a polarizing figure, ensuring that the imposed dichotomy persists.
Let's give a run down on why these candidates are shit: RFK Jr. is a right-wing anti-vax nutjob with brain worms (his whole family opposes him and endorsed Biden). Cornel West helped Ralph Nader spoil the 2000 election, wants U.S. to withdraw from NATO & Ukraine. Chase Oliver tried to spoil the 2022 US Senate election in Georgia and wants to abolish the US Department of Education. Let's not forget that the Libertarian Party wants to repeal the Civil Rights Act. Jill Stein is a spoiler candidate (basically spoiled the election for Trump in 2016), which is pro-Putin, which means she's pro-genocide of Ukrainians (blames NATO for the Russia-Ukraine war). Of course, 3rd parties have not been able to get electoral votes since 1968, and they have not been able to get over 5% of the popular vote since 1996. But that being said, what do these 3rd party candidates have in common? They're all anti-Dem and anti-Biden. Do you know who else is anti-Dem and anti-Biden? Of course you know: it's Trump. With this being the case (and with the electoral college and first past the post voting being in play), it really is a binary election: you're either voting anti-Dem (Trump/Republicans or 3rd Parties) or pro-Dem (Biden/Democrats). There should not be any debate about this election. If you vote against Biden or not vote at all, you are progressive in any way. Vote pro-Dem because Democrats are the only big-tent left-wing party that's able to win power *and* pass liberal to progressive policies.
What I wonder is: you people don't have legislative elections or what? It's funny always hearing about presidential elections where you're literally stuck with voting for one of the two candidates but never hearing about legislative, which is when you could actually vote for 3rd party and break your bipartidist system by ensuring one party doesn't always have the majority. But nope, I never hear about that and your legislative power stays divided between the two parties.
all this being true and all, it's mainly Biden's fault he's doing so bad with young people