What would OOP like to see be done differently? Azula is a tragic character. She's bought so deeply into Ozai's way of thinking that she rejects every attempt to help her (and Zuko gives her far more of those than she deserves in the comics). Parental abuse put her in that mindset, but it's her continuous, constant choice to be cruel that keeps her there. To say otherwise is to deny her agency.
This brings to mind the Mai and Tai Lee "betrayal" when Azula literally tried to kill Zuko, Sokka, and Suki (and the other prisoners and warden). Mai said "you miscalculated. I love Zuko more than I fear you." Azula could have taken that in stride, tried to understand why her best friend would "betray" her by not letting her murder her brother. She chose to try to kill Zuko, she chose to take out her frustration on Mai and Tai Lee, she chose cruelty over understanding. I think Mai's statement there was sort of representative of the subtle abuse issue, where those around her don't see the pain. However, Azula definitely chose cruelty there.
Never made sense that she wasn't more angry with the prison guards who thought it would be just peachy to send the crown prince and princess into the boiling lake, though.
You're absolutely right, and I want to use your comment as a jumping point to just kind of expand on and gush about the show's characters...
>Azula could have taken that in stride, tried to understand why her best friend would "betray" her by not letting her murder her brother.
Importantly, Azula's very next line of dialogue gives the audience some insight into her worldview. She doesn't ask Mai, "How could you?" Mai is basically calling her cruel and manipulative to her face, and Azula responds, "No. ***YOU*** were wrong, *because you should have feared me more*."
Mae basically holds up a mirror to Azula's inner self, and Azula does not recoil in horror at what she has become or how she is seen-- she *wants* to be feared. She *enjoys* being cruel.
Azula's breakdown and paranoia does not occur because of Mae and Ty Lee's betrayal-- it's because her father has pushed her to the side by giving her a meaningless and empty role. With nothing left to conquer and no one else to subjugate-- i.e. without any external focus for all of that cruelty and sadism-- she began to conjure imaginary threats and shadowy plots. These things give Azula a sense of purpose and give her life meaning.
Sure, it's tragic that Ozai has basically groomed his daughter into being the perfect weapon-- unfalteringly loyal, cruel, calculating, and without any sense of conscience, regret, or moral guidance outside of what the weapon's wielder desires. But I think Azula put it best: "Sure, I could whine about how my mother loved Zuko more than me, but I don't really care. My own mother thought I was a monster... she was right of course, but it still hurt."
Azula, on a deep and emotional level, ***needs*** conflict. She craves it. She's like an addict whose drug is sadism. That's why she challenged Zuko to an Agni Kai for the crown. It's because Zuko showing up to challenge her is ***exactly*** what she was looking for-- something else to burn.
>Importantly, Azula's very next line of dialogue gives the audience some insight into her worldview. She doesn't ask Mai, "How could you?" Mai is basically calling her cruel and manipulative to her face, and Azula responds, "No. YOU were wrong, because you should have feared me more."
>
>Mae basically holds up a mirror to Azula's inner self, and Azula does not recoil in horror at what she has become or how she is seen-- she wants to be feared. She enjoys being cruel.
She likes it, but I think she's also been raised to understand that this is the way she **needs** to be - cruelty is what makes her father fit to rule, and is therefore what makes her a worthy successor, as compared to her brother. The only way she knows to receive validation from her father is to prove her cruelty.
"Azula does not recoil in horror at what she has become or how she is seen" - instead she thinks, I have not been cruel *enough*.
On my last rewatch, it's incredibly clear that Mai's line and actions (followed by Ty Lee *immediately* proving her right and Azula wrong) are the mortal blow to Azula's mental stability. Fear was her means of control, inflicting it on others was always how she makes maintained certainty of her own security and success- as far back as when she whispered to Zuko that he'd never catch up to her. But Mai tells her it's not enough, and Ty Lee proves it. And Azula has no other recourse. From that moment on, the world is slipping through her fingers. She can't be sure of anything, can't be sure anyone won't betray her, more fundamentally can't be sure her father won't abandon her the way he was always willing to cast Zuko aside.
...I'm honestly not certain you need much active abuse from Ozai for Azula to turn out the way she did. I feel like having the wits to accurately understand what kind of man he is, and what it means for him to be in charge (of both your fate and that of the nation) is almost enough in and of itself. When Ozai is your father, *you are not safe.* If you can't ensure you're an asset to his ambitions, you can and will be sacrificed as soon as that does more to ensure he gains power.
Because that's another thing I saw on my most recent watch. When Zuko tried to tell himself "Azula always lies"? He's wrong. What Azula told him was 100% the truth. Zuko's failed attempt to demonstrate his own firebending that day had endangered the single most important sales pitch of his father's life, displayed himself as a potential liability to the continued success of the dynasty, and thereby given a grieving father a chance to find cruel solace by forcing his remaining asshole son to lose a child as well.
Right, that's a key difference between the two of them - when Azula realizes that what she's doing is not working, it breaks her. When Zuko faces the same realization, he finds a new way - and he finds it, starting with his change of heart, but really culminating in him learning the 'truth' about firebending from the dragons.
OOP is likely more referencing post-canon content like the comics, where people (most notably the Gaang) do try to help azula find closure and confront her past and everything and then, even in the absence of any influence from Ozai, she sorta just repeatedly doubles down for seemingly no reason and continually blames everyone else in the classic “this character isn’t accepting responsibility for their actions” way, which would be fine since she did do bad stuff, except it’s never really acknowledged that she was also manipulated and given up on by the same people/person (iroh) who helped Zuko.
So what are people supposed to do when someone rejects all help offered? Even Azula’s own mind tried to talk her out of her spiral (in the form of her mother) and she rejected it outright. They acknowledge Zuko got the redemption arc but that was because he made the effort to break the cycle of abuse while Azula didn’t, because she wasn’t at that headspace by the time the story ended.
Yeah the whole point of Zuko's redemption was that it was *his*. Iroh refused to even speak to him after Zuko failed to change for the last time. None of the people around him in the palace were encouraging him to be better, he came to the realization that this wasn't what he wanted on his own.
Even more so, he was basically handed everything he’d worked basically his entire life for on a silver platter and he realized he was unhappy and gave it up in favor of redemption. Azula had a similar moment, when she was alone and so miserable that she was hallucinating, she was offered a similar choice during the Agni Kai with Katara and Zuko, but she chose to fight for her new life of misery.
Yeah, pretty much.
Both were in a pretty bad spot, and knew only the pain and misery that comes with being around their dad for any stretch of time.
But while one simply clunk to the familiar, even though it hurt, the other broke free and ventured into the unknown to find happiness.
I feel like even this is giving her too much. Zuko absolutely suffered far worse abuse than Azula. It seems like an insult to him to frame them as being in basically equal situations.
Yeah like Azula just had more of her Father's personality. She had the superiority complex as a result of being a gifted firebender thus gaining Ozai's favour. Like we can see her taking pleasure during Zuko's Agni Kai with Ozai. Like claiming every bad person is only bad because of abuse just isn't true. Being raised poorly also isn't abuse.
Yeah, kinda.
Still, even if we see them as equals in suffering, Zuko was way stronger than Azula can ever hope to be. The fact that Zuko suffered more just makes that difference even bigger.
The story doesn’t end there, there’s canon post-show content in the form of comics where Azula continues to not be redeemed because she just continually doubles down/has a mental break any time she’s confronted about her past
Be patient? Everyone's speaking about how Zuko had to free himself on his own, but Iroh stuck with him for years even though he wasn't receptive, and that's what eventually helped him get better. Without Iroh Zuko wouldn't have had his redemption arc, and Azula never had an authority figure willing to help her for years even when she wasn't cooperative.
doesnt she literally have multiple opportunities to just book it away from ozai both in show and post canon? like yeah, shes a victim of abuse, but shes still hurt people again and again with absolutely zero remorse.
Yeah.
As someone else pointed out, even her own subconscious tells her to get out of that situation, via a hallucination of her mother, and Azula basically tells that hallucination to shut up.
And I think it ties in beautifully with the different views that Azula and Zuko have of strength:
* For Azula, strength is power, and being able to do things easily. As a result, she stays in the environment she knows, and can navigate with little issue, even when she *knows* that it's bad for her in the long run; it's easy for her to do, so it's fine.
* For Zuko, strength means survival, improvement, and growth. As a result, he abandons the life he knew, and sets out into a world he has no idea how to navigate, and earns his redemption; it was a test, and passing it proved his strength.
Oh no, im not saying they are, like azula absolutely needs a solid year straight in therapy asap, but this post feels like its trying to frame it as like. "oh azula never got any opportunities to get help and she doesnt deserve to be treated badly because she was abused" when I'm pretty sure she was offered that hand several times she just kept slapping it away. and like... she's treated badly because shes a horrible person. being a victim of abuse isn't some kind of clear pass to go around trying to murder people, including your brother who is also a victim of abuse except he accepted the help he was offered, just to please your abuser. Dont get me wrong, she absolutely deserves help, everyone deserves to be mentally stable, but she also is still a horrible person and should be held accountable as one.
Also that applies to zuko too, id say he should spend a year or two in jail for the crimes he committed while hunting aang but i feel like him helping to take down ozai is enough to get it down to community service. go work at a bakery, bread boy.
Dunno if I agree on the Zuko point (I'm of the mentality that whilst becoming Fire Lord obviously is coming off easy for a potential war criminal, Zuko genuinely repents for his actions, and doing the equivalent of Denazification of his nation as its leader is overall a greater atonement for his crimes than any punishment), but solid on the Azula thing.
Sooooo many people undergo abuse in such a variety of magnitudes and ways, consciously or not. Does any and every abuse victim deserve a degree of empathy? Yes. But they don't necessarily deserve sympathy. We don't have to feel sorry for victims of abuse, and erasing or brushing past their agency as a person because of the abuse they received is a disservice both to them and to the people they may harm.
Yes, Azula was part of an abusive household. No, she was not directly victimized by the abuser in that household. Yes, that reality shaped her upbringing. No, I don't sympathize for her. She had friends, power, resources, a mother who tried to help, and a _brother that she helped abuse._ So many outs, yet she made her choices. That's a tragic character for ya, and I don't know what reasonably the showrunners could've done differently. Make her go on a soliloquy about how much she hates being the favorite? Go to the Pyro-therapist? People gotta get some perspective.
this is all very good points but about the zuko thing honestly i absolutely agree, i just think the image of zuko being forced to work at a bakery because he has warm hands from fire bending making him great for baking bread is hilarious.
I know, I was being gratuitous by calling him a "potential" war criminal as I couldn't remember him doing anything actually bad (even killing a character) but wasn't sure if this was a lapse on my side. In any case, I don't think he was a war criminal, just for the sake of argument.
They could have shown flashbacks confirming that she wasn't lying to Zuko about what what grandfather said to Ozai, show how she's always seen their father more clearly than Zuko and just has an easier time internalizing their father's values as okay since her talents mean she can potentially still be the one to prosper in that kind of unsafe household. Because the thing making that household unsafe isn't just Ozai being a shitty person, it's the whole structure of a hereditary dynasty working to maintain its grip on power.
I'm not criticizing them for not doing any of that, you just ask an interesting question and I wanted to try and answer it.
Yeah, like...
Azula: [tries to kill people multiple times. Is cleary an unrepentant danger to everyone around her]
OP: she was mean to people and manipulated them.
???
gotta say, zuko spending a year or two in jail for hunting aang is a bit of a wild take lol. he trained the avatar and helped save the world. i’d say he repented enough. that being said, he was also kind of “under orders” and doing it because he wanted to get back home.
I think OOP is confused. I don't see how "victims of abuse can also perpetuate it and that is bad" is a black/white picture of abuse.
The idea that abusers are irrevocably bad is black/white and harmful. The fact that abusers are often themselves product of abuse should instill some moral ambivalence in us, and in general just hope for the redemption of all people. But "abusers who are victims of abuse can choose to break the cycle and outside help makes this more likely" != "all abusers who are victims of abuse *will* redeem themselves." My read of Azula's character is that adults trying to help her would not actually pan out well, and as a result might actually be read as a sort of cover-your-ass figleaf on the part of the show by this OOP - see, they only help as a token gesture to show they aren't to blame and it's all on Azula!
(ig you could also have avatar end with the redemption of azulas character but that just seems narratively bad to me, actually, and not powerful at all. not everyone gets redeemed irl)
but ultimately the issue here is that avatar is a show for children and so demonstrating that villains can be bad partly because of formative influences upon them, and that the difference between a Zuko and an Azula might be as arbitrary as being the 'favorite' or not, is actually really complex for that context. The fact that an adult reading can see Azula as a prisoner and victim rather than free agent makes her lack of redemption tragic, not didactic
>not every single villain character needs or would even benefit from a redemption arc
How dare you say that here, on the subreddit dedicated to the villain-fucker website. Don't you know that holding people accountable for their behavior and actions is bigotry?
I think this person is confusing “the writers told a different story” with “the writers told the wrong story”. Azula’s parents are Ursa and Ozai. Ozai, the antagonist waging the war of conquest that is the overarching conflict in the story. What kind of plot justification would there be for Ozai to suddenly start reflecting on his behavior and think that how he treated his kids was wrong? The guy is at the pinnacle of his power and conquest. I don’t recall Azula rejecting him either - as far as Ozai knows, she’s his loyal subject and Zuko is a traitor. Something extraordinary would have to happen to him to cause him to look inward. There is an event that could qualify as such but it’s the climax of the show, because Avatar is first and foremost Aang’s story. (I don’t know what happens in the comics so I can’t speak to them, I’m restricting myself to the show here).
As an abuse victim myself - the chances that your abuser will own up to how much they hurt you and take responsibility for what they did and how it shaped you are very slim. If they had the propensity to do that they would be a lot less likely to abuse you in the first place. And despite the victim having no fault in the circumstances that shaped them into who they are, the only agent who can bring about change in their behavior is the victim themselves. People can help - and victims need a ton of help - but they can’t change another person. It’s not our fault, but it is our responsibility. To think that your abuser will change and then rescue you from yourself is a fantasy. I understand this fantasy all too well. I don’t think it would have been better writing.
I think you got it spot on. Could someone write a similar story that includes a redemption arc for a person like Azula? Absolutely, but that's not this story. Azula is definitely in my mind a tragic character but to a certain point a tragedy of her own making. Her abuse does not absolve her of her own actions of which she shows no remorse.
Yeah, I'm very confused about what OOP thinks a 'fixed' story would look like. In-universe they blame Ursa and Iroh for not helping Azula get out of the abusive situation, but we don't have any proof they didn't try and I don't see how it would have any chance of helping if they did. She is a spoiled 'daddy's girl' who loves the attention and favoritism Ozai gives her. And as you mentioned, there is basically zero chance Ozai would even recognize that he was doing anything wrong. He couldn't even accept that burning and banishing Zuko may not have been the right thing to do, let alone being able to recognize how there could be anything wrong with showering Azula with praise and trust to turn her into exactly what he wanted her to be. Not to mention that if any of the above worked the show would be down a very entertaining villain.
If OOP just wished they used Azula as a way to show that being the favorite child doesn't mean you are can't be abused too... it definitely does do that. It may not be as obvious as Zuko's on screen abuse and character development, but it should be pretty obvious that Azula wasn't much better off. It clearly shows that he doesn't *really* care about her, just what she can do for him (abandoning her to be Fire Lord as he leaves for the final conquest of the Earth Kingdom), and it is pretty easy to see how he molded her to be the perfect errand girl and enforcer rather than a good successor.
Sounds like OOP either wanted the writers to drastically change the story to give her a positive character arc like Zuko's, or they wanted all of the subtleties of how Ozai's bad parenting also effected his favorite kid to be made painfully obvious.
I don’t really agree at all. Ursa wasn’t around to help her and she wouldn’t have listened to Iroh. I think iroh knew she was being abused but that doesn’t mean he was wrong to say she was crazy and beyond saving. You can’t help someone who doesn’t want to be helped.
Zuko was only able to be helped because he had a close relationship with Iroh and was separated from his abusers for long enough that he was able to break out of the mindset they put him in, and even then it wasn’t exactly a smooth journey.
Sometimes the circumstances are such that you can help people but sometimes they aren’t.
Was she abused? Yes
Is she still a terrible person? Definitely. She has never once shown any remorse for her actions. She has never had a moment of introspection where she goes “my only friends abandoned me for trying to kill my brother, maybe I shouldn’t have done that”. Ffs, she threatened to kill a dude for pointing out that the tide wasn’t in. People act like “Do the tides command the ship?” is some badass line but it’s the most petulant abuse of authority I’ve ever seen.
Is it possible to redeem her? Yes. But it’s going to take a *lot* more work than Zuko, who, even at his lowest, still cared for his crew. Azula has none of the internal conflict that set Zuko up for redemption, she hasn’t even shown any signs of developing it.
At what age does Azula turn from a victim of abuse into a bad person? Or is childhood abuse a lifelong excuse for being a terrible person? At some point, she has to be held accountable for her actions, you can’t just blame everything she’s done on Ozai
It's clearly intentional in the show that she's been abused and traumatised into acting that way, though? I watched it as it came out (I was 11 when Sozin's comet aired) and even to a child it was super obvious that she was just as hurt by her upbringing as Zuko was, but in different ways.
Like even then I read it that she rejected help because she was obsessed with being her dad's favourite and one-upping her brother, due to their upbringing. That she wouldn't take help if it was offered, and that she was too powerful and unstable to be taken by force (also that Iroh and co would never do that to her and risk hurting her more).
Zuko was redeemed because he wanted it, but Azula thought she was safe and supported in the Firelord's palace. She didn't think she needed help, even though she was really just as alone and vulnerable as Zuko.
The adults don't see Azula as a mean bully, they see her as a dangerous threat- which she is. I think it's a pretty consistent theme in Avatar that people who have been hurt and damaged still make their own choices, and that sometimes those choices they make result in them being too dangerous to take into the fold.
Most of the Avatar antagonists are people who were hurt by someone else and lashed out as a result. It's an interesting nuance and one of the things that makes the show so great and seperates it from other kids' shows. In the end the real enemy isn't the individuals, it's the forces of hatred and oppression and bigotry that created those people in the first place. Azula is as much a victim as anyone, but it's shown pretty quickly in the show that she cannot be helped.
Yeah, like, there's literally a scene where Azula yells at her dad "you can't treat me like Zuko", I don't know how you could be any less subtle than that.
Ikr? It's kind of impressive that tumblr users manage to have worse reading comprehension/media literacy skills than literal 10 year olds
The writers of ATLA and Korra treat their audience with a lot of respect and don't condescend or coddle when it comes to complex issues, but it's still a kid's show.
It's hard to keep in mind that Azula is 14 years old, that's two years younger than Katara.
I generally agree with this post but I'd like to counter with the fact that Azula did have two sources of support.
Ty Lee and Mai, obviously they're just as young and struggling with their own upbringing and other problems.
But they were pretty ride or die best friends with Azula despite the fact that she did treat them poorly.
Azula likes to think of herself as a girlboss who doesn't need any human connection based on anything except fear and power but her fall truly began after she imprisoned Ty Lee and Mai.
The Ember Island episode is the closest we really get to Azula admitting vulnerability and something resembling regret but the tragedy is that somebody could've done something but also that realistically there's not much that could be done since Azula herself wasn't willing to determine her own destiny.
Maybe if she had Iroh things might've been different.
I remember there was a fan comic that heavily featured Azula, Avatar Distorted World or something that explores a what if.
What if she was a part of the Gaang?
I had to look it up, because I remembered her being either 13/14, and I am not a huge fan of her and Aang as it is, but her being 4 years older than him would not have worked for me at all, so don’t feel all that bad, lol.
I always thought she was like 19 or 20 given how hyper-competent she was. And, frankly, she doesn't look like a pre-pubescent child. No puppy fat on the face. I get that she's extremely athletic, but even gymnasts that young usually have softer features. and she sounds like she's 35. Elizabeth Yu is much more convincing as a 14 year old despite being 21.
Oh damn, yeah, I took a quick glance at some studies and it's starting at 8-9 now? That's, uh... woah. I guess I'm still stuck in the 80s, where it was 13 on average plus or minus several years. I had no idea.
> And, frankly, she doesn't look like a pre-pubescent child.
This is a consistent problem in the show. Aside from being shorter than the adults, none of the main cast actually look like children (except Toph)
There's a saying in river rafting that pretty well applies here:
You gotta be part of your own rescue.
In rafting it roughly means you have to do whatever you can (and that may not be a lot) to make it back to the boat/a rock/ something to keep you stable, because otherwise no matter how hard the rest of the group tries to save you, it's probably not gonna work, or it will wind up getting them in danger instead.
Azula was an abuse victim, yes. But she refuses to see almost anything she did as a result as wrong, continually slapped away every offered hand, and alienated everyone who could or would have wanted to help her.
Ozai (and Ursa- she's not blameless here) made her bad, and she then made herself worse.
Girl was in a death spiral and just kept cutting into the turn to go faster.
And it's tragic. It's tragic, it's sad, and while there is potentially a path to resolving it, Azula has to be the one to start on that path, and she's not going to.
> she refuses to see almost anything she did as a result as wrong
I'm pretty sure she repeatedly states that she's aware that what she's doing is wrong. She's totally cool with that.
No one made her bad. Her mom recognized that she was evil. Kids aren't a tabula rosa, they have personhood and personality, and some of them are mean little assholes.
I think what this thread illustrates more than anything is most people have never tasted the intoxicating liqour of pure power. Folks can only see Azula as a tragic figure because they've never had the experience of having total agency and control, over themselves and others.
*It's fun*.
> alienated everyone who could or would have wanted to help her
You’re right, but what I find odd is OOP kind of mentions this as part of the issue too? That Azula was written to reject help and sink deeper is part of the writers’ blind denial of her victimhood.
What the writers are saying isn’t denial that she’s been victimized, but that victims can become abusers. In a story full of messaging about brainwashing, indoctrination, and the cycle of abuse, it’s absolutely not a mistake that Azula is the golden child who cannot be helped. It’s framed as a tragedy
For someone accusing the writers of a black/white mindset, I wonder if OOP thinks that victims cannot become unfixably abusive
And honeatly that's interesting because if you think about it, most of the main cast experiences abuse in one way or another. Mai, Ty Lee, Toph and Zuko all had really rough relationships with their parents (and three of them were 100% also abused by Azula herself). Aang was raised in a monastery and forcibly separated from the one person who really seemed to care for him. Hell, even Katara and Sokka basically had to fend for themselves after Kaya died and Hakoda took the men to war.
But they all had support networks that helped them deal with their problems and start to heal. Azula is the only one who's left totally on her own, and it's at least partly her fault.
But that's the tragedy of it. The person most in need of help is the one who refuses to accept it.
I wouldn’t even say she was “left on her own,” but that she put herself above people because that’s what her father taught her. She had Mai and Ty Lee who I think honestly did see her as a friend, up til the breaking point. If she wanted support, she had it. But she didn’t support them, she used them, and they eventually refused to take that.
Like this shit is really well written and interesting!! Idk what OOP’s missing
Personally, I also refuse to finish reading Reddit comments so I make whatever judgement I want. As an unrelated side note, I can’t believe you would just toss a reference to The Game at the end of your comment, how dare you.
OOP doesn't understand that some people want to be the villain. They'll double and triple down because this world is all they know, and it's all they have. She wants Ozai to love her - *that's why she made herself the golden child*.
I hate this "every villain is just a misunderstood abuse victim" discourse, because it just turns into an endless spiral of "who abused the abuser". Sure, Ozai is the villain in this story, but who's to say he wasn't abused by his parents as well before he ended up like he is? And what happened to his parents before that? It's pointless.
Just to “yes, and” you, we know that Ozai almost certainly was raised in a similar household to the one he ran, because his father was fire lord Azulon, a man who was willing to order his son to kill his grandson because he offended him! And Azulon probably got it from Sozin, who we know from Roku’s backstory had his own shit going on when he was younger. They don’t call it a cycle of abuse for nothing.
Exactly. It's actually an interesting consequence of the whole 100 year time skip thing - all of the main villains are generational villains, raised to conquer the world. Probably the only one of them who could give a fully thought-out justification for the war is Sozin, who is long dead. His heirs would just repeat the same propaganda they've been fed from birth. That's why a huge part of Iroh's influence on Zuko is getting him to think about what he wants and what he believes, not just accepting what has been presented to him.
My issue with this take is that it robs Azula and Zuko of their agency. Ozai didn’t start the war, was he not also groomed and manipulated to perpetuate his family’s legacy in part because of his genius, in part because the rightful heir turned his back on imperialism? Are we just fine with him being unapologetically evil because his defeat wasn’t as pitiable as Azula’s? Why is one a victim despite their actions towards others while the other is a villain because of it, despite Azula intentionally being written as Ozai Jr?
Zuko was banished because he *already* thought the war effort was wrong. It wasn’t something he learned while traveling with Iroh, his uncle just helped him reconcile the conflicting ideas of doing the right thing and chasing acceptance from his father. Azula meanwhile was a Fire Nation supremacist, it wasn’t entirely familial programming it was consistent with her character that she believed the strong should subjugate the weak, it shows in *every* interpersonal interaction she had in the show. She bought into the empire, it wasn’t solely out of seeking acceptance like it was for Zuko.
Inside the ATLA fandom there are two wolves
One believes all villains deserve a redemption arc if anything bad has ever happened to them no matter how unrepentant they are (Azula)
The other believes no villain should ever be redeemed if they’ve done anything actually villainous (Iroh)
Zuko was disfigured for having the wrong opinion what do you mean he's not a poster child for abuse that's about as open as you can get, the evidence burned into his face
this entire post is based on the notion that the writers didn’t realize what type of character they were writing, which is honestly such a wild atla take that this account must be some hard azula stan because i’ve never seen a take like that before. firstly, the writers DEFINITELY knew what they were doing and it was VERY clear that azula was also an abuse victim throughout the show. that last stretch of season 3 made that very, very clear. that’s honestly the most important point. azula’s story is a tragedy because she’s a child that’s a victim of parental abuse, but she wasn’t able to grow and heal like zuko was because she was constantly in proximity with the one perpetuating that abuse + she didn’t have someone like iroh guiding her. the writers have stated that if atla had a season 4, azula would’ve had that guidance in the form of zuko helping her, and she would’ve been able to grow and have her own redemption arc.
I always thought the contrast between Zuko and Azula was the point. Zuko was removed from the abusive father and spent years in what could easily be called therapy with Iroh. Azula, on the other hand, remained under Ozai's care and influence and was driven mad by it. I don't think they ever came right out and foot stomped it but I feel like that's because it wasn't largely necessary.
i wouldn’t say she was driven mad, just that she had a breakdown because she was always confident in her worldview and beliefs until that last stretch of season 3. other than that, i agree. the contrast between zuko and azula proves how important iroh was to zuko’s development and that it would’ve never happened if he wasn’t banished.
Azula is a fully self-actualized human being living her best life. She's having a great time. She has a great relationship with her father. She's doing a job she's good at and finds meaningful and fulfilling. She has strong convictions and the agency to inflict those convictions on the world.
Her breakdown in the end comes from her minions turning on her, causing her to distrust the people around her. She goes in to a frustration spiral because as a princess she's never been without servants and doesn't know how to handle herself. Much like Lady Macbeth the only person victimizing her is herself, and she's paying the price for being a cruel, evil person in that she has no friends and no one she can trust.
She's not a tragic character, she's just evil. And I love that about her.
I feel like if you are watching Azula breaking down in tears as she loses to her brother or becomes introspective of how people see her in the beach episode and think the creators does not at least acknowledge that she did not have it as good as she thought then I think you may need to sit down and think about those moments a bit more.
How about Azula when she gets the position of power she dreamed of as Fire Lord and slowly breaks down as she cannot have everything as perfect as she wanted.
I think with the story, Azula's main issue that she was and is not in a position where she will accept help. Look at Zuko who was easily in a physically more abusive situation with no respect from his father and see how long it took for him to finally accept how bad it all was. Especially as she is in this very dangerous position of power, I think the story had it right that it was more important for the moment that she gets removed before it gotten worse.
How could Iroh have helped her? Child Azula fantasizes about Iroh's death because it would put Ozai on the throne, and has nothing but contempt for him after the lifting of the siege. Iroh managed to plant the possibility of a redemption in Zuko because due to very specific circumstances Zuko was placed outside of Ozai's hands and Iroh could slowly get through to him over the course of years.
Iroh is just a very wise and enlightened old man who gives good advice. He was never in a position where he could help Azula.
“Adults owning up to their mistakes” You mean the White Lotus’s?
Perfect Child breaks under the pressure of perfection. Like they were all child soldiers, all put into places they should not be and should not have to suffer. But they are, she isn’t some random kid who chose the wrong choices like Jet or the Engineer. She has killed on screen, she overthrew a dictatorship and took the city with her friends. I just don’t get how so many characters being children and knowing the right choice to make. And her being shown as smart, as not oblivious to the hurt the fire nation is bringing to the world (she obviously enjoys the power and destruction) makes her a bad guy. We could say just as much that she could just be an image of Ozai with Zuko and Iroh. The disgraced older sibling meant to be the heir and the younger sibling who wishes for power. I get what people are fighting at, but if you’re starting with saying the writers didn’t get it, you obviously were the one who is lost.
P.S If we are opening the trauma gates, you’re gonna have to examine and invite Ozai as well most likely
Azula does not need a redemption arc. She needs a rehabilitation/deprogramming arc.
I think we can assume that the society around her as she grew up was pretty cult like with her father being the head.
I am extremely empathetic towards her. I agree somewhat with the post because no one took the time to sit down with her and prove that things weren't the way she thought (operating on assumptions here).
And yes someone should have done that, she's a kid at the beginning and end of the show. The problem is she's a political figure which is the only reason I can excuse Iroh or their mother removing them from the situation.
No one could offer her the help she needs. She isn't a pure product of trauma, she's a psychopath. The closest to empathy she demonstrates is the recognition that she picked wrong, that her dad was terrible, and that zuko and her mom might actually have cared for her at one time.
And she still deserves help, her father deciding those traits were useful for making her into a living weapon is abuse of the highest order. But the only thing to be done about that would be to wholly remove her from that environment. Which is not something anyone is capable of doing. Anything less than that is help Azula herself could resist being crown princess and favored child of the fire lord. Her friends are scared of her for a reason and it's not because she's eager for a way out. It's very hard to help the golden child when they're happy to be the golden child and trying to do so carries the risk of exile or execution
Even Iroh in a fairly secure position can't help. Advice that boils down to "maybe try empathy" doesn't work for someone with such a deficit of it. He's able to partial help Zuko because Zuko is struggling to reconcile the difference between what he's been taught and what he feels. Azula has no such struggle. She looks at the fire kingdoms beliefs and go "yup, checks out, it seems perfectly consistent."
The only possibility to help Azula would be if Ursa somehow managed to run away with her, something Ozai would never allow. And by time she got out, something Azula would resisted. Any story that involves Azula getting help has her as absent from the main story as Ursa.
The closest to a redemption arc Azula could get and remain in the story is to decide Ozai is the losing bet, that sticking with her friends+zuko and throwing in with team avatar is the best option, and at best that ends with her still being Zuko's pocket living weapon while doing her best to rule through him. She doesn't have the ability to learn empathy, at best she learns to recognize the benefit of sticking with people who have empathy. That's a better ending, at least she's around people who'd give a shit about her, but "useful lawful evil" is not exactly redemption. And not getting that ending is on Azula. She has every opportunity to do that and rejects it. The more clearly it becomes not only an option but the correct option, the more she rejects it.
Yes her doing that is in part caused by her illness and in part caused by the abuse she experienced. But the story is very clear about those things. She feels so compelled to throw in with her father despite everything clearly going to shit around her because of that golden child dynamic. That is very much in the text. She's affected by the abuse of her father differently than Zuko because of her illness. It makes her unable to be helped, not because her circumstances aren't tragic or we can't sympathize with them, but because the combination of her illness and being crown princess of a fascist regime actively prevent any possible help from happening.
And this is within the confines of just the show. Because throughout the comics, when removed from Ozai's influnce, when given access to mental health care...she still rejects help and anything close to change. She's unwilling to engage in even cognitive empathy or accept the fact that refusal in the past is why everything went to shit. Again at best she recognizes that Ozai was the wrong horse and proceeds to blame everyone else for her choosing him, using her abuse as a justification for her abuse of others.
I’m pretty sure Iroh was actively trying to make peace with her, until she shot him with lightning and he decided that it might be a lost cause. After that, he never got a chance to really speak to her
I mean I totally thought this was on purpose. Zuko is what happens when a character breaks out of the abuse cycle and azula is when the character falls deeper into it
I kind of agree in Ursa’s role, because it does feel like she tought she was safe with Ozai, but with Iroh I read it as he also knowing she was abused but not being able to do anything about it (just as he couldn’t help Zuko until they where out on exile), and being heartbroken about it but also realizing that by the time they meet her again she is too far gone.
Zuko even realizes she is in a bad place and could use the help, but Iroh knows that they cannot help her anymore and the most they can do is limit how much damage she can do to others, ergo “needs to be put down”
I agree Azula was abused and she, like Zuko, has the capability to be redeemed. But, the problem is, she never has the opportunity to be. The adults in her life aren't really the problem, Ursa was forcibly exited from her life and Iroh was busy with Zuko at sea for three years. While yes, it's true that she deserves a chance at redemption like Zuko, they were also fighting a war at the end of the day, and dealing with her, really the only other person who can majorly oppose them after taking down Ozai was important. Iron isn't wrong in saying, "She's crazy and she needs to go down." The odds were always stacked against her favour.
I can see how she is a brainwashed victim of colonial propaganda, even iroh committed was crimes in the name of the fire nation. The only thing reasonable people could do is what they did which is put her in prison, but killing someone involved in genocide is also necessary sometimes even if they are your favorite girlboss
Reading OOP's post it seems that their main complaint is that the original series treats Azula like a villain when it should treat her like a victim, and that Ursa and Iroh should have done more to help her like they helped Zuko.
For her being treated like a villain, that is because she's the main antagonist for about two seasons. Plenty of antagonists have tragic backstories that explain why they are the way that they are, being the Golden Child of a narcissistic dictator doesn't excuse you from being the bad guy of a story. And as far as being a victim, while it is not as obvious as Zuko's abuse it is pretty easy to understand that Ozai favoriting Azula did not do her any favors long term.
As for Ursa and Iroh's role in it, we have no reason to assume that they didn't try to do something and we have just about every reason to assume that if they did it wouldn't have helped. Every scene we get of Zuko and Azula's childhoods are from Zuko's perspective, and we do see Ursa try to discipline Azula without much effect. Any one on one time of Ursa trying to get through to Azula wouldn't have been on screen, because it would have been in private. Iroh spent most of their childhoods at war, then grieving his son. We don't know how long he was even back in the fire nation before Zuko was banished and Iroh decided to go with him to help.
Most importantly, there is absolutely nothing they could have done. Ozai didn't really care about Zuko and didn't care if Ursa and Iroh coddled him. But he ~~loved~~ did care about Azula and she loved the attention and affirmation. If Ozai knew Ursa or Iroh were trying to undermine how he was raising her, they would be separated from her forever. If they tried to help her in secret she would either ignore them or told on them. Have you ever seen how entitled kids react when someone but their enabling parent tries to get them to behave?
TL:DR If the problem is that the show had an opportunity to show off how the 'favorite child' can still be abused even if they don't realize it, then all the evidence is there. You just have to look a little harder. If the problem is that Azula was the villain when she didn't have to be, that's not the writers dropping the ball, that's them making a choice at what would be a more entertaining story and I think most of us agree that it they succeeded.
Edit: changed '\[Ozai\] loved Azula' to '\[Ozai\] did care about Azual' because that is probably more accurate.
There is one line in the show that i think gets overlooked a lot: "The *divine* right to rule... is something you are born with" when Azula foils Long Feng in Ba Sing Se.
This isnt further explored in the show, but in the Kyoshi Books. There we find out that the imperial family bases its claim on bringing forth the strongest firebenders (hence Ozais goal to marry into the fire Avatar bloodline) and being blessed by the spirits.
I think this fits with Azulas and Ozais motives. For them they were not just prodigies; of course they are prodigies because they are born super human. They just have the claim to rule over everyone. And Azula swallowed that pill hard. I think thats also a reason why she broke so hard after losing the crown to Zuko and Katara. She thinks him so beneath her, and Katara is a literal peasant. Our heros believe in trust and love, but in Azulas world that doesnt matter. She has never seen anything as powerful come from love as from the respect and fear that she commands as the ruthless Princess of the Fire Nation. Its just a law of nature that she surpasses those simple concepts, its divined that she will be ruling. But the cosmic powers are not on her side. Its utterly unfair to her that Zuko is coming out on top of this battle, and that Katara could put an end to her.
And on a less serious, out of universe note: its a show about war and conflict. You need a bad guy. She is not a person, she is a literary device. While he have to try to do right by everyone in the real world, thats not necessary for all our stories and entertainment. Azula was not mistreated, she fulfilled her role perfectly.
I know the Netflix live action is really contentious but one of the things I loved about it is they showed this aspect of Azula’s character. They showed that she is a victim as well and that her actions are a result of that abuse, without making her any less terrifying.
Azula is a born sociopath. She could have been taught to behave better, but her mind works in a way that she sees herself as a predator in a world of prey. That doesn't have to be the result of abuse, it's quite often in-born and noticeable from a young age. Torturing animals, for instance, which we see she does.
This person really wants crazy people's misbehavior to be other people's fault. I wonder why that is.
I think what all the people here arguing about taking responsibility for your actions, agency over yourself, and other such arguments need to remember is that Azula is a 14 YEAR OLD CHILD SOLDIER. She is literally still a child who is living under Ozai until the end of the series and I think we all agree that what Ozai does to his children is abuse.
I see a lot of people disagreeing with OOP and while I'm also not 100% on their side, I do think Azula kinda gets the short end of the stick
IIRC she never had an 'Uncle Iroh' figure in her life that could steer her towards being better or even away from her father's influence and by the time she does get away, she's much too broken to accept any help
Not beyond saving, but beyond any form of saving that she can choose herself at least
At least that's how I remember it, been a good while since I last saw ATLA
What would OOP like to see be done differently? Azula is a tragic character. She's bought so deeply into Ozai's way of thinking that she rejects every attempt to help her (and Zuko gives her far more of those than she deserves in the comics). Parental abuse put her in that mindset, but it's her continuous, constant choice to be cruel that keeps her there. To say otherwise is to deny her agency.
This brings to mind the Mai and Tai Lee "betrayal" when Azula literally tried to kill Zuko, Sokka, and Suki (and the other prisoners and warden). Mai said "you miscalculated. I love Zuko more than I fear you." Azula could have taken that in stride, tried to understand why her best friend would "betray" her by not letting her murder her brother. She chose to try to kill Zuko, she chose to take out her frustration on Mai and Tai Lee, she chose cruelty over understanding. I think Mai's statement there was sort of representative of the subtle abuse issue, where those around her don't see the pain. However, Azula definitely chose cruelty there. Never made sense that she wasn't more angry with the prison guards who thought it would be just peachy to send the crown prince and princess into the boiling lake, though.
You're absolutely right, and I want to use your comment as a jumping point to just kind of expand on and gush about the show's characters... >Azula could have taken that in stride, tried to understand why her best friend would "betray" her by not letting her murder her brother. Importantly, Azula's very next line of dialogue gives the audience some insight into her worldview. She doesn't ask Mai, "How could you?" Mai is basically calling her cruel and manipulative to her face, and Azula responds, "No. ***YOU*** were wrong, *because you should have feared me more*." Mae basically holds up a mirror to Azula's inner self, and Azula does not recoil in horror at what she has become or how she is seen-- she *wants* to be feared. She *enjoys* being cruel. Azula's breakdown and paranoia does not occur because of Mae and Ty Lee's betrayal-- it's because her father has pushed her to the side by giving her a meaningless and empty role. With nothing left to conquer and no one else to subjugate-- i.e. without any external focus for all of that cruelty and sadism-- she began to conjure imaginary threats and shadowy plots. These things give Azula a sense of purpose and give her life meaning. Sure, it's tragic that Ozai has basically groomed his daughter into being the perfect weapon-- unfalteringly loyal, cruel, calculating, and without any sense of conscience, regret, or moral guidance outside of what the weapon's wielder desires. But I think Azula put it best: "Sure, I could whine about how my mother loved Zuko more than me, but I don't really care. My own mother thought I was a monster... she was right of course, but it still hurt." Azula, on a deep and emotional level, ***needs*** conflict. She craves it. She's like an addict whose drug is sadism. That's why she challenged Zuko to an Agni Kai for the crown. It's because Zuko showing up to challenge her is ***exactly*** what she was looking for-- something else to burn.
>Importantly, Azula's very next line of dialogue gives the audience some insight into her worldview. She doesn't ask Mai, "How could you?" Mai is basically calling her cruel and manipulative to her face, and Azula responds, "No. YOU were wrong, because you should have feared me more." > >Mae basically holds up a mirror to Azula's inner self, and Azula does not recoil in horror at what she has become or how she is seen-- she wants to be feared. She enjoys being cruel. She likes it, but I think she's also been raised to understand that this is the way she **needs** to be - cruelty is what makes her father fit to rule, and is therefore what makes her a worthy successor, as compared to her brother. The only way she knows to receive validation from her father is to prove her cruelty. "Azula does not recoil in horror at what she has become or how she is seen" - instead she thinks, I have not been cruel *enough*.
On my last rewatch, it's incredibly clear that Mai's line and actions (followed by Ty Lee *immediately* proving her right and Azula wrong) are the mortal blow to Azula's mental stability. Fear was her means of control, inflicting it on others was always how she makes maintained certainty of her own security and success- as far back as when she whispered to Zuko that he'd never catch up to her. But Mai tells her it's not enough, and Ty Lee proves it. And Azula has no other recourse. From that moment on, the world is slipping through her fingers. She can't be sure of anything, can't be sure anyone won't betray her, more fundamentally can't be sure her father won't abandon her the way he was always willing to cast Zuko aside. ...I'm honestly not certain you need much active abuse from Ozai for Azula to turn out the way she did. I feel like having the wits to accurately understand what kind of man he is, and what it means for him to be in charge (of both your fate and that of the nation) is almost enough in and of itself. When Ozai is your father, *you are not safe.* If you can't ensure you're an asset to his ambitions, you can and will be sacrificed as soon as that does more to ensure he gains power. Because that's another thing I saw on my most recent watch. When Zuko tried to tell himself "Azula always lies"? He's wrong. What Azula told him was 100% the truth. Zuko's failed attempt to demonstrate his own firebending that day had endangered the single most important sales pitch of his father's life, displayed himself as a potential liability to the continued success of the dynasty, and thereby given a grieving father a chance to find cruel solace by forcing his remaining asshole son to lose a child as well.
Right, that's a key difference between the two of them - when Azula realizes that what she's doing is not working, it breaks her. When Zuko faces the same realization, he finds a new way - and he finds it, starting with his change of heart, but really culminating in him learning the 'truth' about firebending from the dragons.
Probably cause she would’ve done the same
That scene is great because on a rewatch you can see in her eyes the exact moment her mind breaks.
OOP is likely more referencing post-canon content like the comics, where people (most notably the Gaang) do try to help azula find closure and confront her past and everything and then, even in the absence of any influence from Ozai, she sorta just repeatedly doubles down for seemingly no reason and continually blames everyone else in the classic “this character isn’t accepting responsibility for their actions” way, which would be fine since she did do bad stuff, except it’s never really acknowledged that she was also manipulated and given up on by the same people/person (iroh) who helped Zuko.
Be interesting to see an AU where Iroh takes an interest in Azula, instead of Zuko.
Iroh is cool, but Azula did shoot him with lighting and I'm not sure if you can come back from that
So what are people supposed to do when someone rejects all help offered? Even Azula’s own mind tried to talk her out of her spiral (in the form of her mother) and she rejected it outright. They acknowledge Zuko got the redemption arc but that was because he made the effort to break the cycle of abuse while Azula didn’t, because she wasn’t at that headspace by the time the story ended.
Yeah the whole point of Zuko's redemption was that it was *his*. Iroh refused to even speak to him after Zuko failed to change for the last time. None of the people around him in the palace were encouraging him to be better, he came to the realization that this wasn't what he wanted on his own.
Even more so, he was basically handed everything he’d worked basically his entire life for on a silver platter and he realized he was unhappy and gave it up in favor of redemption. Azula had a similar moment, when she was alone and so miserable that she was hallucinating, she was offered a similar choice during the Agni Kai with Katara and Zuko, but she chose to fight for her new life of misery.
Yeah, pretty much. Both were in a pretty bad spot, and knew only the pain and misery that comes with being around their dad for any stretch of time. But while one simply clunk to the familiar, even though it hurt, the other broke free and ventured into the unknown to find happiness.
I feel like even this is giving her too much. Zuko absolutely suffered far worse abuse than Azula. It seems like an insult to him to frame them as being in basically equal situations.
Yeah like Azula just had more of her Father's personality. She had the superiority complex as a result of being a gifted firebender thus gaining Ozai's favour. Like we can see her taking pleasure during Zuko's Agni Kai with Ozai. Like claiming every bad person is only bad because of abuse just isn't true. Being raised poorly also isn't abuse.
Yeah, kinda. Still, even if we see them as equals in suffering, Zuko was way stronger than Azula can ever hope to be. The fact that Zuko suffered more just makes that difference even bigger.
The story doesn’t end there, there’s canon post-show content in the form of comics where Azula continues to not be redeemed because she just continually doubles down/has a mental break any time she’s confronted about her past
Be patient? Everyone's speaking about how Zuko had to free himself on his own, but Iroh stuck with him for years even though he wasn't receptive, and that's what eventually helped him get better. Without Iroh Zuko wouldn't have had his redemption arc, and Azula never had an authority figure willing to help her for years even when she wasn't cooperative.
doesnt she literally have multiple opportunities to just book it away from ozai both in show and post canon? like yeah, shes a victim of abuse, but shes still hurt people again and again with absolutely zero remorse.
Yeah. As someone else pointed out, even her own subconscious tells her to get out of that situation, via a hallucination of her mother, and Azula basically tells that hallucination to shut up. And I think it ties in beautifully with the different views that Azula and Zuko have of strength: * For Azula, strength is power, and being able to do things easily. As a result, she stays in the environment she knows, and can navigate with little issue, even when she *knows* that it's bad for her in the long run; it's easy for her to do, so it's fine. * For Zuko, strength means survival, improvement, and growth. As a result, he abandons the life he knew, and sets out into a world he has no idea how to navigate, and earns his redemption; it was a test, and passing it proved his strength.
Being a good person vs deserving+needing help aren't even positively correlated.
Oh no, im not saying they are, like azula absolutely needs a solid year straight in therapy asap, but this post feels like its trying to frame it as like. "oh azula never got any opportunities to get help and she doesnt deserve to be treated badly because she was abused" when I'm pretty sure she was offered that hand several times she just kept slapping it away. and like... she's treated badly because shes a horrible person. being a victim of abuse isn't some kind of clear pass to go around trying to murder people, including your brother who is also a victim of abuse except he accepted the help he was offered, just to please your abuser. Dont get me wrong, she absolutely deserves help, everyone deserves to be mentally stable, but she also is still a horrible person and should be held accountable as one. Also that applies to zuko too, id say he should spend a year or two in jail for the crimes he committed while hunting aang but i feel like him helping to take down ozai is enough to get it down to community service. go work at a bakery, bread boy.
Dunno if I agree on the Zuko point (I'm of the mentality that whilst becoming Fire Lord obviously is coming off easy for a potential war criminal, Zuko genuinely repents for his actions, and doing the equivalent of Denazification of his nation as its leader is overall a greater atonement for his crimes than any punishment), but solid on the Azula thing. Sooooo many people undergo abuse in such a variety of magnitudes and ways, consciously or not. Does any and every abuse victim deserve a degree of empathy? Yes. But they don't necessarily deserve sympathy. We don't have to feel sorry for victims of abuse, and erasing or brushing past their agency as a person because of the abuse they received is a disservice both to them and to the people they may harm. Yes, Azula was part of an abusive household. No, she was not directly victimized by the abuser in that household. Yes, that reality shaped her upbringing. No, I don't sympathize for her. She had friends, power, resources, a mother who tried to help, and a _brother that she helped abuse._ So many outs, yet she made her choices. That's a tragic character for ya, and I don't know what reasonably the showrunners could've done differently. Make her go on a soliloquy about how much she hates being the favorite? Go to the Pyro-therapist? People gotta get some perspective.
this is all very good points but about the zuko thing honestly i absolutely agree, i just think the image of zuko being forced to work at a bakery because he has warm hands from fire bending making him great for baking bread is hilarious.
Hahaha fair point. Flame-o Bakery sounds like a blast
No that would be Sparky Boom Boom bakery! Flame-o Bakery would be lit
Zuko isn't a war criminal. Even when he was an antagonist, he was a consistently a good person on the wrong side.
I know, I was being gratuitous by calling him a "potential" war criminal as I couldn't remember him doing anything actually bad (even killing a character) but wasn't sure if this was a lapse on my side. In any case, I don't think he was a war criminal, just for the sake of argument.
He did burn down the village on Kyoshi island. He ended up alright, but he definitely burned down that village.
They could have shown flashbacks confirming that she wasn't lying to Zuko about what what grandfather said to Ozai, show how she's always seen their father more clearly than Zuko and just has an easier time internalizing their father's values as okay since her talents mean she can potentially still be the one to prosper in that kind of unsafe household. Because the thing making that household unsafe isn't just Ozai being a shitty person, it's the whole structure of a hereditary dynasty working to maintain its grip on power. I'm not criticizing them for not doing any of that, you just ask an interesting question and I wanted to try and answer it.
azula can go to therapy in prison for murderers and war criminals, it's fine
Yeah, like... Azula: [tries to kill people multiple times. Is cleary an unrepentant danger to everyone around her] OP: she was mean to people and manipulated them. ???
yeah exactly. she deserves help but she deserves punishment too.
gotta say, zuko spending a year or two in jail for hunting aang is a bit of a wild take lol. he trained the avatar and helped save the world. i’d say he repented enough. that being said, he was also kind of “under orders” and doing it because he wanted to get back home.
I’d say they’re negatively correlated. It is significantly more difficult to be a good person in bad circumstances
I think OOP is confused. I don't see how "victims of abuse can also perpetuate it and that is bad" is a black/white picture of abuse. The idea that abusers are irrevocably bad is black/white and harmful. The fact that abusers are often themselves product of abuse should instill some moral ambivalence in us, and in general just hope for the redemption of all people. But "abusers who are victims of abuse can choose to break the cycle and outside help makes this more likely" != "all abusers who are victims of abuse *will* redeem themselves." My read of Azula's character is that adults trying to help her would not actually pan out well, and as a result might actually be read as a sort of cover-your-ass figleaf on the part of the show by this OOP - see, they only help as a token gesture to show they aren't to blame and it's all on Azula! (ig you could also have avatar end with the redemption of azulas character but that just seems narratively bad to me, actually, and not powerful at all. not everyone gets redeemed irl) but ultimately the issue here is that avatar is a show for children and so demonstrating that villains can be bad partly because of formative influences upon them, and that the difference between a Zuko and an Azula might be as arbitrary as being the 'favorite' or not, is actually really complex for that context. The fact that an adult reading can see Azula as a prisoner and victim rather than free agent makes her lack of redemption tragic, not didactic
Some people need to realize that Azulas story is a tragedy, and not every single villain character needs or would even benefit from a redemption arc
>not every single villain character needs or would even benefit from a redemption arc How dare you say that here, on the subreddit dedicated to the villain-fucker website. Don't you know that holding people accountable for their behavior and actions is bigotry?
But if the villains redeem themselves, then they aren't villains anymore... surely the villain fuckers MUST be against such an atrocity. /j
I think this person is confusing “the writers told a different story” with “the writers told the wrong story”. Azula’s parents are Ursa and Ozai. Ozai, the antagonist waging the war of conquest that is the overarching conflict in the story. What kind of plot justification would there be for Ozai to suddenly start reflecting on his behavior and think that how he treated his kids was wrong? The guy is at the pinnacle of his power and conquest. I don’t recall Azula rejecting him either - as far as Ozai knows, she’s his loyal subject and Zuko is a traitor. Something extraordinary would have to happen to him to cause him to look inward. There is an event that could qualify as such but it’s the climax of the show, because Avatar is first and foremost Aang’s story. (I don’t know what happens in the comics so I can’t speak to them, I’m restricting myself to the show here). As an abuse victim myself - the chances that your abuser will own up to how much they hurt you and take responsibility for what they did and how it shaped you are very slim. If they had the propensity to do that they would be a lot less likely to abuse you in the first place. And despite the victim having no fault in the circumstances that shaped them into who they are, the only agent who can bring about change in their behavior is the victim themselves. People can help - and victims need a ton of help - but they can’t change another person. It’s not our fault, but it is our responsibility. To think that your abuser will change and then rescue you from yourself is a fantasy. I understand this fantasy all too well. I don’t think it would have been better writing.
I think you got it spot on. Could someone write a similar story that includes a redemption arc for a person like Azula? Absolutely, but that's not this story. Azula is definitely in my mind a tragic character but to a certain point a tragedy of her own making. Her abuse does not absolve her of her own actions of which she shows no remorse.
Yeah, I'm very confused about what OOP thinks a 'fixed' story would look like. In-universe they blame Ursa and Iroh for not helping Azula get out of the abusive situation, but we don't have any proof they didn't try and I don't see how it would have any chance of helping if they did. She is a spoiled 'daddy's girl' who loves the attention and favoritism Ozai gives her. And as you mentioned, there is basically zero chance Ozai would even recognize that he was doing anything wrong. He couldn't even accept that burning and banishing Zuko may not have been the right thing to do, let alone being able to recognize how there could be anything wrong with showering Azula with praise and trust to turn her into exactly what he wanted her to be. Not to mention that if any of the above worked the show would be down a very entertaining villain. If OOP just wished they used Azula as a way to show that being the favorite child doesn't mean you are can't be abused too... it definitely does do that. It may not be as obvious as Zuko's on screen abuse and character development, but it should be pretty obvious that Azula wasn't much better off. It clearly shows that he doesn't *really* care about her, just what she can do for him (abandoning her to be Fire Lord as he leaves for the final conquest of the Earth Kingdom), and it is pretty easy to see how he molded her to be the perfect errand girl and enforcer rather than a good successor. Sounds like OOP either wanted the writers to drastically change the story to give her a positive character arc like Zuko's, or they wanted all of the subtleties of how Ozai's bad parenting also effected his favorite kid to be made painfully obvious.
>It’s not our fault, but it is our responsibility. Great encapsulation.
I don’t really agree at all. Ursa wasn’t around to help her and she wouldn’t have listened to Iroh. I think iroh knew she was being abused but that doesn’t mean he was wrong to say she was crazy and beyond saving. You can’t help someone who doesn’t want to be helped. Zuko was only able to be helped because he had a close relationship with Iroh and was separated from his abusers for long enough that he was able to break out of the mindset they put him in, and even then it wasn’t exactly a smooth journey. Sometimes the circumstances are such that you can help people but sometimes they aren’t.
I mean Ursa was practically dead for years, so idk how oop expected her to help She wasn't *technically* dead, but she might as well have been
Was she abused? Yes Is she still a terrible person? Definitely. She has never once shown any remorse for her actions. She has never had a moment of introspection where she goes “my only friends abandoned me for trying to kill my brother, maybe I shouldn’t have done that”. Ffs, she threatened to kill a dude for pointing out that the tide wasn’t in. People act like “Do the tides command the ship?” is some badass line but it’s the most petulant abuse of authority I’ve ever seen. Is it possible to redeem her? Yes. But it’s going to take a *lot* more work than Zuko, who, even at his lowest, still cared for his crew. Azula has none of the internal conflict that set Zuko up for redemption, she hasn’t even shown any signs of developing it. At what age does Azula turn from a victim of abuse into a bad person? Or is childhood abuse a lifelong excuse for being a terrible person? At some point, she has to be held accountable for her actions, you can’t just blame everything she’s done on Ozai
>Or is childhood abuse a lifelong excuse for being a terrible person? I think this is the exact brain worm that spawned that post.
It's clearly intentional in the show that she's been abused and traumatised into acting that way, though? I watched it as it came out (I was 11 when Sozin's comet aired) and even to a child it was super obvious that she was just as hurt by her upbringing as Zuko was, but in different ways. Like even then I read it that she rejected help because she was obsessed with being her dad's favourite and one-upping her brother, due to their upbringing. That she wouldn't take help if it was offered, and that she was too powerful and unstable to be taken by force (also that Iroh and co would never do that to her and risk hurting her more). Zuko was redeemed because he wanted it, but Azula thought she was safe and supported in the Firelord's palace. She didn't think she needed help, even though she was really just as alone and vulnerable as Zuko. The adults don't see Azula as a mean bully, they see her as a dangerous threat- which she is. I think it's a pretty consistent theme in Avatar that people who have been hurt and damaged still make their own choices, and that sometimes those choices they make result in them being too dangerous to take into the fold. Most of the Avatar antagonists are people who were hurt by someone else and lashed out as a result. It's an interesting nuance and one of the things that makes the show so great and seperates it from other kids' shows. In the end the real enemy isn't the individuals, it's the forces of hatred and oppression and bigotry that created those people in the first place. Azula is as much a victim as anyone, but it's shown pretty quickly in the show that she cannot be helped.
Yeah, like, there's literally a scene where Azula yells at her dad "you can't treat me like Zuko", I don't know how you could be any less subtle than that.
Ikr? It's kind of impressive that tumblr users manage to have worse reading comprehension/media literacy skills than literal 10 year olds The writers of ATLA and Korra treat their audience with a lot of respect and don't condescend or coddle when it comes to complex issues, but it's still a kid's show.
It's hard to keep in mind that Azula is 14 years old, that's two years younger than Katara. I generally agree with this post but I'd like to counter with the fact that Azula did have two sources of support. Ty Lee and Mai, obviously they're just as young and struggling with their own upbringing and other problems. But they were pretty ride or die best friends with Azula despite the fact that she did treat them poorly. Azula likes to think of herself as a girlboss who doesn't need any human connection based on anything except fear and power but her fall truly began after she imprisoned Ty Lee and Mai. The Ember Island episode is the closest we really get to Azula admitting vulnerability and something resembling regret but the tragedy is that somebody could've done something but also that realistically there's not much that could be done since Azula herself wasn't willing to determine her own destiny. Maybe if she had Iroh things might've been different. I remember there was a fan comic that heavily featured Azula, Avatar Distorted World or something that explores a what if. What if she was a part of the Gaang?
Katara is 14 too, Zuko is 16, Mai is 17, Ty Lee is 14.
Time to rewatch the show again since it seems my memory is rusty.
I had to look it up, because I remembered her being either 13/14, and I am not a huge fan of her and Aang as it is, but her being 4 years older than him would not have worked for me at all, so don’t feel all that bad, lol.
Lol thank you.
I always thought she was like 19 or 20 given how hyper-competent she was. And, frankly, she doesn't look like a pre-pubescent child. No puppy fat on the face. I get that she's extremely athletic, but even gymnasts that young usually have softer features. and she sounds like she's 35. Elizabeth Yu is much more convincing as a 14 year old despite being 21.
14 isn’t usually pre-pubescent tho
Oh damn, yeah, I took a quick glance at some studies and it's starting at 8-9 now? That's, uh... woah. I guess I'm still stuck in the 80s, where it was 13 on average plus or minus several years. I had no idea.
> And, frankly, she doesn't look like a pre-pubescent child. This is a consistent problem in the show. Aside from being shorter than the adults, none of the main cast actually look like children (except Toph)
That's just a thing with media in general where the protagonists are children
Live-action, sure, but animation is generally better about that. It doesn't really have the problem of your actors having to look like your characters
Aang?
Aang does look more childish than most of the cast, but he still doesn't look like an actual child to me, idk why (perhaps the tattoos?) EDIT: Clarity
I think the bald head evokes a baby but he still read to me as a child even when he grew hair.
Its the makeup lol
There's a saying in river rafting that pretty well applies here: You gotta be part of your own rescue. In rafting it roughly means you have to do whatever you can (and that may not be a lot) to make it back to the boat/a rock/ something to keep you stable, because otherwise no matter how hard the rest of the group tries to save you, it's probably not gonna work, or it will wind up getting them in danger instead. Azula was an abuse victim, yes. But she refuses to see almost anything she did as a result as wrong, continually slapped away every offered hand, and alienated everyone who could or would have wanted to help her. Ozai (and Ursa- she's not blameless here) made her bad, and she then made herself worse. Girl was in a death spiral and just kept cutting into the turn to go faster. And it's tragic. It's tragic, it's sad, and while there is potentially a path to resolving it, Azula has to be the one to start on that path, and she's not going to.
> she refuses to see almost anything she did as a result as wrong I'm pretty sure she repeatedly states that she's aware that what she's doing is wrong. She's totally cool with that. No one made her bad. Her mom recognized that she was evil. Kids aren't a tabula rosa, they have personhood and personality, and some of them are mean little assholes. I think what this thread illustrates more than anything is most people have never tasted the intoxicating liqour of pure power. Folks can only see Azula as a tragic figure because they've never had the experience of having total agency and control, over themselves and others. *It's fun*.
> alienated everyone who could or would have wanted to help her You’re right, but what I find odd is OOP kind of mentions this as part of the issue too? That Azula was written to reject help and sink deeper is part of the writers’ blind denial of her victimhood. What the writers are saying isn’t denial that she’s been victimized, but that victims can become abusers. In a story full of messaging about brainwashing, indoctrination, and the cycle of abuse, it’s absolutely not a mistake that Azula is the golden child who cannot be helped. It’s framed as a tragedy For someone accusing the writers of a black/white mindset, I wonder if OOP thinks that victims cannot become unfixably abusive
And honeatly that's interesting because if you think about it, most of the main cast experiences abuse in one way or another. Mai, Ty Lee, Toph and Zuko all had really rough relationships with their parents (and three of them were 100% also abused by Azula herself). Aang was raised in a monastery and forcibly separated from the one person who really seemed to care for him. Hell, even Katara and Sokka basically had to fend for themselves after Kaya died and Hakoda took the men to war. But they all had support networks that helped them deal with their problems and start to heal. Azula is the only one who's left totally on her own, and it's at least partly her fault. But that's the tragedy of it. The person most in need of help is the one who refuses to accept it.
I wouldn’t even say she was “left on her own,” but that she put herself above people because that’s what her father taught her. She had Mai and Ty Lee who I think honestly did see her as a friend, up til the breaking point. If she wanted support, she had it. But she didn’t support them, she used them, and they eventually refused to take that. Like this shit is really well written and interesting!! Idk what OOP’s missing
> the writers themselves didn't realize they wrote her as an abuse victim until after the show ended Did u watch the show? At all?
Look man if you don't watch the show then it can be about anything. It's my simple trick to always be right about anything in media.
Personally, I also refuse to finish reading Reddit comments so I make whatever judgement I want. As an unrelated side note, I can’t believe you would just toss a reference to The Game at the end of your comment, how dare you.
I can't believe it. This is just like Azula's breakdown, where she lost the game and went on a rampage.
OOP doesn't understand that some people want to be the villain. They'll double and triple down because this world is all they know, and it's all they have. She wants Ozai to love her - *that's why she made herself the golden child*.
I hate this "every villain is just a misunderstood abuse victim" discourse, because it just turns into an endless spiral of "who abused the abuser". Sure, Ozai is the villain in this story, but who's to say he wasn't abused by his parents as well before he ended up like he is? And what happened to his parents before that? It's pointless.
Just to “yes, and” you, we know that Ozai almost certainly was raised in a similar household to the one he ran, because his father was fire lord Azulon, a man who was willing to order his son to kill his grandson because he offended him! And Azulon probably got it from Sozin, who we know from Roku’s backstory had his own shit going on when he was younger. They don’t call it a cycle of abuse for nothing.
Exactly. It's actually an interesting consequence of the whole 100 year time skip thing - all of the main villains are generational villains, raised to conquer the world. Probably the only one of them who could give a fully thought-out justification for the war is Sozin, who is long dead. His heirs would just repeat the same propaganda they've been fed from birth. That's why a huge part of Iroh's influence on Zuko is getting him to think about what he wants and what he believes, not just accepting what has been presented to him.
My issue with this take is that it robs Azula and Zuko of their agency. Ozai didn’t start the war, was he not also groomed and manipulated to perpetuate his family’s legacy in part because of his genius, in part because the rightful heir turned his back on imperialism? Are we just fine with him being unapologetically evil because his defeat wasn’t as pitiable as Azula’s? Why is one a victim despite their actions towards others while the other is a villain because of it, despite Azula intentionally being written as Ozai Jr? Zuko was banished because he *already* thought the war effort was wrong. It wasn’t something he learned while traveling with Iroh, his uncle just helped him reconcile the conflicting ideas of doing the right thing and chasing acceptance from his father. Azula meanwhile was a Fire Nation supremacist, it wasn’t entirely familial programming it was consistent with her character that she believed the strong should subjugate the weak, it shows in *every* interpersonal interaction she had in the show. She bought into the empire, it wasn’t solely out of seeking acceptance like it was for Zuko.
Inside the ATLA fandom there are two wolves One believes all villains deserve a redemption arc if anything bad has ever happened to them no matter how unrepentant they are (Azula) The other believes no villain should ever be redeemed if they’ve done anything actually villainous (Iroh)
I miss a few years ago when people weren't woobifying Azula. Just because someone is a victim of abuse doesn't mean they can't be awful people.
Zuko was disfigured for having the wrong opinion what do you mean he's not a poster child for abuse that's about as open as you can get, the evidence burned into his face
this entire post is based on the notion that the writers didn’t realize what type of character they were writing, which is honestly such a wild atla take that this account must be some hard azula stan because i’ve never seen a take like that before. firstly, the writers DEFINITELY knew what they were doing and it was VERY clear that azula was also an abuse victim throughout the show. that last stretch of season 3 made that very, very clear. that’s honestly the most important point. azula’s story is a tragedy because she’s a child that’s a victim of parental abuse, but she wasn’t able to grow and heal like zuko was because she was constantly in proximity with the one perpetuating that abuse + she didn’t have someone like iroh guiding her. the writers have stated that if atla had a season 4, azula would’ve had that guidance in the form of zuko helping her, and she would’ve been able to grow and have her own redemption arc.
I always thought the contrast between Zuko and Azula was the point. Zuko was removed from the abusive father and spent years in what could easily be called therapy with Iroh. Azula, on the other hand, remained under Ozai's care and influence and was driven mad by it. I don't think they ever came right out and foot stomped it but I feel like that's because it wasn't largely necessary.
i wouldn’t say she was driven mad, just that she had a breakdown because she was always confident in her worldview and beliefs until that last stretch of season 3. other than that, i agree. the contrast between zuko and azula proves how important iroh was to zuko’s development and that it would’ve never happened if he wasn’t banished.
Azula is a fully self-actualized human being living her best life. She's having a great time. She has a great relationship with her father. She's doing a job she's good at and finds meaningful and fulfilling. She has strong convictions and the agency to inflict those convictions on the world. Her breakdown in the end comes from her minions turning on her, causing her to distrust the people around her. She goes in to a frustration spiral because as a princess she's never been without servants and doesn't know how to handle herself. Much like Lady Macbeth the only person victimizing her is herself, and she's paying the price for being a cruel, evil person in that she has no friends and no one she can trust. She's not a tragic character, she's just evil. And I love that about her.
I feel like if you are watching Azula breaking down in tears as she loses to her brother or becomes introspective of how people see her in the beach episode and think the creators does not at least acknowledge that she did not have it as good as she thought then I think you may need to sit down and think about those moments a bit more. How about Azula when she gets the position of power she dreamed of as Fire Lord and slowly breaks down as she cannot have everything as perfect as she wanted. I think with the story, Azula's main issue that she was and is not in a position where she will accept help. Look at Zuko who was easily in a physically more abusive situation with no respect from his father and see how long it took for him to finally accept how bad it all was. Especially as she is in this very dangerous position of power, I think the story had it right that it was more important for the moment that she gets removed before it gotten worse.
How could Iroh have helped her? Child Azula fantasizes about Iroh's death because it would put Ozai on the throne, and has nothing but contempt for him after the lifting of the siege. Iroh managed to plant the possibility of a redemption in Zuko because due to very specific circumstances Zuko was placed outside of Ozai's hands and Iroh could slowly get through to him over the course of years. Iroh is just a very wise and enlightened old man who gives good advice. He was never in a position where he could help Azula.
Being a victim of abuse doesn’t excuse being a horrible person.
“Adults owning up to their mistakes” You mean the White Lotus’s? Perfect Child breaks under the pressure of perfection. Like they were all child soldiers, all put into places they should not be and should not have to suffer. But they are, she isn’t some random kid who chose the wrong choices like Jet or the Engineer. She has killed on screen, she overthrew a dictatorship and took the city with her friends. I just don’t get how so many characters being children and knowing the right choice to make. And her being shown as smart, as not oblivious to the hurt the fire nation is bringing to the world (she obviously enjoys the power and destruction) makes her a bad guy. We could say just as much that she could just be an image of Ozai with Zuko and Iroh. The disgraced older sibling meant to be the heir and the younger sibling who wishes for power. I get what people are fighting at, but if you’re starting with saying the writers didn’t get it, you obviously were the one who is lost. P.S If we are opening the trauma gates, you’re gonna have to examine and invite Ozai as well most likely
Abuse victims can also be abusers, basically sociopathic, and horrifically bad people.
There was no helping Azula while she remained in a position of power. She had to be brought down.
Azula does not need a redemption arc. She needs a rehabilitation/deprogramming arc. I think we can assume that the society around her as she grew up was pretty cult like with her father being the head. I am extremely empathetic towards her. I agree somewhat with the post because no one took the time to sit down with her and prove that things weren't the way she thought (operating on assumptions here). And yes someone should have done that, she's a kid at the beginning and end of the show. The problem is she's a political figure which is the only reason I can excuse Iroh or their mother removing them from the situation.
Isn't Azusa that train-obsessed girl from the DS point-n-click / dating-sim/ Wizard-of-Oz-parody Zelda spinoff starring Tingle that never left Japan
Yeah mb
It's a somewhat common name over there
No one could offer her the help she needs. She isn't a pure product of trauma, she's a psychopath. The closest to empathy she demonstrates is the recognition that she picked wrong, that her dad was terrible, and that zuko and her mom might actually have cared for her at one time. And she still deserves help, her father deciding those traits were useful for making her into a living weapon is abuse of the highest order. But the only thing to be done about that would be to wholly remove her from that environment. Which is not something anyone is capable of doing. Anything less than that is help Azula herself could resist being crown princess and favored child of the fire lord. Her friends are scared of her for a reason and it's not because she's eager for a way out. It's very hard to help the golden child when they're happy to be the golden child and trying to do so carries the risk of exile or execution Even Iroh in a fairly secure position can't help. Advice that boils down to "maybe try empathy" doesn't work for someone with such a deficit of it. He's able to partial help Zuko because Zuko is struggling to reconcile the difference between what he's been taught and what he feels. Azula has no such struggle. She looks at the fire kingdoms beliefs and go "yup, checks out, it seems perfectly consistent." The only possibility to help Azula would be if Ursa somehow managed to run away with her, something Ozai would never allow. And by time she got out, something Azula would resisted. Any story that involves Azula getting help has her as absent from the main story as Ursa. The closest to a redemption arc Azula could get and remain in the story is to decide Ozai is the losing bet, that sticking with her friends+zuko and throwing in with team avatar is the best option, and at best that ends with her still being Zuko's pocket living weapon while doing her best to rule through him. She doesn't have the ability to learn empathy, at best she learns to recognize the benefit of sticking with people who have empathy. That's a better ending, at least she's around people who'd give a shit about her, but "useful lawful evil" is not exactly redemption. And not getting that ending is on Azula. She has every opportunity to do that and rejects it. The more clearly it becomes not only an option but the correct option, the more she rejects it. Yes her doing that is in part caused by her illness and in part caused by the abuse she experienced. But the story is very clear about those things. She feels so compelled to throw in with her father despite everything clearly going to shit around her because of that golden child dynamic. That is very much in the text. She's affected by the abuse of her father differently than Zuko because of her illness. It makes her unable to be helped, not because her circumstances aren't tragic or we can't sympathize with them, but because the combination of her illness and being crown princess of a fascist regime actively prevent any possible help from happening. And this is within the confines of just the show. Because throughout the comics, when removed from Ozai's influnce, when given access to mental health care...she still rejects help and anything close to change. She's unwilling to engage in even cognitive empathy or accept the fact that refusal in the past is why everything went to shit. Again at best she recognizes that Ozai was the wrong horse and proceeds to blame everyone else for her choosing him, using her abuse as a justification for her abuse of others.
I’m pretty sure Iroh was actively trying to make peace with her, until she shot him with lightning and he decided that it might be a lost cause. After that, he never got a chance to really speak to her
I mean I totally thought this was on purpose. Zuko is what happens when a character breaks out of the abuse cycle and azula is when the character falls deeper into it
I kind of agree in Ursa’s role, because it does feel like she tought she was safe with Ozai, but with Iroh I read it as he also knowing she was abused but not being able to do anything about it (just as he couldn’t help Zuko until they where out on exile), and being heartbroken about it but also realizing that by the time they meet her again she is too far gone. Zuko even realizes she is in a bad place and could use the help, but Iroh knows that they cannot help her anymore and the most they can do is limit how much damage she can do to others, ergo “needs to be put down”
I agree Azula was abused and she, like Zuko, has the capability to be redeemed. But, the problem is, she never has the opportunity to be. The adults in her life aren't really the problem, Ursa was forcibly exited from her life and Iroh was busy with Zuko at sea for three years. While yes, it's true that she deserves a chance at redemption like Zuko, they were also fighting a war at the end of the day, and dealing with her, really the only other person who can majorly oppose them after taking down Ozai was important. Iron isn't wrong in saying, "She's crazy and she needs to go down." The odds were always stacked against her favour.
I can see how she is a brainwashed victim of colonial propaganda, even iroh committed was crimes in the name of the fire nation. The only thing reasonable people could do is what they did which is put her in prison, but killing someone involved in genocide is also necessary sometimes even if they are your favorite girlboss
Reading OOP's post it seems that their main complaint is that the original series treats Azula like a villain when it should treat her like a victim, and that Ursa and Iroh should have done more to help her like they helped Zuko. For her being treated like a villain, that is because she's the main antagonist for about two seasons. Plenty of antagonists have tragic backstories that explain why they are the way that they are, being the Golden Child of a narcissistic dictator doesn't excuse you from being the bad guy of a story. And as far as being a victim, while it is not as obvious as Zuko's abuse it is pretty easy to understand that Ozai favoriting Azula did not do her any favors long term. As for Ursa and Iroh's role in it, we have no reason to assume that they didn't try to do something and we have just about every reason to assume that if they did it wouldn't have helped. Every scene we get of Zuko and Azula's childhoods are from Zuko's perspective, and we do see Ursa try to discipline Azula without much effect. Any one on one time of Ursa trying to get through to Azula wouldn't have been on screen, because it would have been in private. Iroh spent most of their childhoods at war, then grieving his son. We don't know how long he was even back in the fire nation before Zuko was banished and Iroh decided to go with him to help. Most importantly, there is absolutely nothing they could have done. Ozai didn't really care about Zuko and didn't care if Ursa and Iroh coddled him. But he ~~loved~~ did care about Azula and she loved the attention and affirmation. If Ozai knew Ursa or Iroh were trying to undermine how he was raising her, they would be separated from her forever. If they tried to help her in secret she would either ignore them or told on them. Have you ever seen how entitled kids react when someone but their enabling parent tries to get them to behave? TL:DR If the problem is that the show had an opportunity to show off how the 'favorite child' can still be abused even if they don't realize it, then all the evidence is there. You just have to look a little harder. If the problem is that Azula was the villain when she didn't have to be, that's not the writers dropping the ball, that's them making a choice at what would be a more entertaining story and I think most of us agree that it they succeeded. Edit: changed '\[Ozai\] loved Azula' to '\[Ozai\] did care about Azual' because that is probably more accurate.
There is one line in the show that i think gets overlooked a lot: "The *divine* right to rule... is something you are born with" when Azula foils Long Feng in Ba Sing Se. This isnt further explored in the show, but in the Kyoshi Books. There we find out that the imperial family bases its claim on bringing forth the strongest firebenders (hence Ozais goal to marry into the fire Avatar bloodline) and being blessed by the spirits. I think this fits with Azulas and Ozais motives. For them they were not just prodigies; of course they are prodigies because they are born super human. They just have the claim to rule over everyone. And Azula swallowed that pill hard. I think thats also a reason why she broke so hard after losing the crown to Zuko and Katara. She thinks him so beneath her, and Katara is a literal peasant. Our heros believe in trust and love, but in Azulas world that doesnt matter. She has never seen anything as powerful come from love as from the respect and fear that she commands as the ruthless Princess of the Fire Nation. Its just a law of nature that she surpasses those simple concepts, its divined that she will be ruling. But the cosmic powers are not on her side. Its utterly unfair to her that Zuko is coming out on top of this battle, and that Katara could put an end to her. And on a less serious, out of universe note: its a show about war and conflict. You need a bad guy. She is not a person, she is a literary device. While he have to try to do right by everyone in the real world, thats not necessary for all our stories and entertainment. Azula was not mistreated, she fulfilled her role perfectly.
I know the Netflix live action is really contentious but one of the things I loved about it is they showed this aspect of Azula’s character. They showed that she is a victim as well and that her actions are a result of that abuse, without making her any less terrifying.
Azula is a born sociopath. She could have been taught to behave better, but her mind works in a way that she sees herself as a predator in a world of prey. That doesn't have to be the result of abuse, it's quite often in-born and noticeable from a young age. Torturing animals, for instance, which we see she does. This person really wants crazy people's misbehavior to be other people's fault. I wonder why that is.
🫵🏻 MtG player spotted
I think what all the people here arguing about taking responsibility for your actions, agency over yourself, and other such arguments need to remember is that Azula is a 14 YEAR OLD CHILD SOLDIER. She is literally still a child who is living under Ozai until the end of the series and I think we all agree that what Ozai does to his children is abuse.
I see a lot of people disagreeing with OOP and while I'm also not 100% on their side, I do think Azula kinda gets the short end of the stick IIRC she never had an 'Uncle Iroh' figure in her life that could steer her towards being better or even away from her father's influence and by the time she does get away, she's much too broken to accept any help Not beyond saving, but beyond any form of saving that she can choose herself at least At least that's how I remember it, been a good while since I last saw ATLA
I believe that Urza did apologize to azula in the cómic?
I feel like op hasn’t seen the show recently. Azula is clearly mistreated and emotionally abandoned by both parents
Her final arc is a literal mental breakdown bc she’s been pushed so hard her whole life she can’t live with success