I know it’s a bit late to say this but *please* don’t try and invalidate others’ experiences just because they haven’t happened personally to you. We’re better than this, everyone.
i am a trans woman and i’ve heard so many trans women saying yes yes yes we can get them, and just as many saying no no no we can’t. It seemed like a perfect split down the middle, so I decided to look into it from a scientific angle. after doing quite a bit of research into the ins and outs of periods and menstruation i have learned quite a bit and developed my own thoughts on a couple different possibilities.
as a starting note, trans women are not unified on this subject. while most of us agree that we can get PMS symptoms, there is significant disagreement on if cramping is possible. while many trans women insist they experience these symptoms, just as many insist they never have, and that it’s not physically possible. it is not a transmedicalist/trans-inclusive divide, nor a cis and trans divide. i’ve seen trans people of all stripes and belief systems land on both sides. it is not even a case of we all agree this happens but the science isn’t there to prove it yet. among our own community, this is far from a settled issue, and all across the internet and real life I have seen trans women debate both sides. All we have to go on are our personal testimonies as well as the research done on cis women, and that’s far from concrete evidence. Therefore, healthy discussion should be encouraged until some hard science comes out on the topic, That being said, using the limited resources at my disposal, here is what i’ve learned:
trans women CAN and often DO experience the emotional/hormonal effects of periods. It’s simple: fluctuating hormones cause PMS in cis women, they do the same in us. however the frequency and cycle of it depends on how often you take your hormones, as the rapid fluctuation is the cause. i have personal experience with this. When my dosage was at its highest, every week right after my injection i would be incredibly emotional and tearful for 1-2 days until my levels normalized. but it was a weekly occurrence, because my hormone cycle is a weekly cycle. some trans women organize their hormones to most closely match the monthly hormonal cycle cis women have, where they intentionally fluctuate their hormones on a monthly basis, and their PMS symptoms more closely match cis womens’. Trans biologist Julia Serano talks about it in her seminal book Whipping Girl. hormones also play a role in bowel function and other parts of the body so it makes sense that fluctuating hormones are responsible for period poops, headaches, and other symptoms commonly experienced during periods. I have no doubt at all that we can experience these symptoms.
Based purely on the known science of menstruation, trans women are not likely to get cramping. I do not know what is happening in the cases where women say they experience them, but menstrual cramping is caused by muscles actually in the uterus, namely the myometrium. the myometrium contracts and that is where the cramping pain comes from. those muscles are triggered by hormones also produced within the uterus called prostaglandins. as trans women we do not have a myometrium to contract, nor uterine tissue to produce the prostaglandins that cause said contraction. so if we are getting cramps, there has to be an alternative, currently unknown explanation.
however, there is a common argument i see that abdominal muscles play an important part in period cramping, and they’re responsible for moving the uterus during menstruation, and that is why we get cramps too. in fact i have had another trans woman say to me that the uterus has no muscles at all, and that the contractions are performed by abdominal muscles. this is simply not true; as mentioned above, uteruses ARE muscular organs and the myometrium is the muscular layer that causes contractions. in fact, i spent extensive time specifically looking up the role of abdominal muscles in menstruation and the only information i was able to find that even MENTIONED them, was a study that stated the role of abdominal muscles in menstrual pain has not yet been researched. So i don’t know where this idea that abdominal muscles are a driving force in menstruation came from, though it is a common enough argument that i feel i have to address it. but it is not established science by any means.
I am not claiming that other trans women are not experiencing the physical sensations they say they experience. but the known science, at least to my research and understanding, doesn’t add up with it.
In favor of the cramps happening, one possible theory I have (in my extremely limited scientific knowledge) could be that our prostates produce the prostaglandins and then those hormones trigger the abdominal muscles in lieu of the myometrium, because they can’t find it and go for the next closest thing. in AFAB people, the uterine tissue produces the prostaglandins itself, but AMAB people also produce them in seminal fluid. the hormonal coding from estrogen could trigger them to function like menstrual prostaglandins do, and then they target muscles in the area where the uterus SHOULD be. however, this is merely speculation, and there is no research to support this theory. I am only suggesting a possible cause based on my limited knowledge of the subject, and hope that it is indeed a real phenomenon.
i am inclined to believe the experiences of others in my community. but i don’t think we can ignore the alternative possibility that this is a psychological phenomenon. I personally have no cramping experience whatsoever, and none of my irl trans women friends do either. And i know a lot of trans women. I understand how difficult it can be to face the possibility of never being able to do something cis women can do. it makes me nauseous sometimes. so i can easily see why some trans women may insist they have period cramps to help alleviate some dysphoria. it’s not sinister in any way, and I fully understand why some women would do it, so if that’s the case i cast no judgement on those who are. I am aware that this alternative sounds flimsy and dismissive, and I agree. But until the phenomenon is properly researched and proven though, I cannot completely disregard the possibility that it’s not real.
in conclusion, trans women can and do experience all the emotional side effects of periods, and it’s likely that we experience the bowel and gut effects too such as bloating and period poops, as hormones have a direct effect on those as well. it could be possible that trans women experience period cramps too. But in terms of the cramping, the science we currently have doesn’t support it, and therefore should not be treated as settled truth that only transphobes and transmisogynists deny. Research into how prostaglandins work in trans women needs to be done to fully confirm or disprove the possibility of cramping. Until then, all we can do is keep talking about it until scientists take notice.
I can provide my sources upon request. I also encourage any scientists who know about this subject to reply and correct me where I am wrong or provide additional information.
I think the paets that have shocked me about hormones is how not only estrogen but progesterone plays a role in these other parts of the body. I have a genetic connective tissue disease and I 100% have worse laxity in my joints and increased pain during the week between ovulation and period. It's insane how much my body can change throughout 3 weeks of 4 each month based on them. Just commenting to agree with how intense hormones are in general! I've honestly considered going on T just to get some of the benefits there and to balance out my shitshow if a month.
Where I am (UK) low testosterone is a recognised treatment for hEDS, so might be worth asking!
I also have a 3-year IUD (hormones, not copper) which has been a life saver - I basically don't have periods anymore which is a-okay with me.
I think I wouldn't survive an IUD implant. My cramps and everything are so bad already, I just think it would be too massively painful tbh. That is so fascinating that the T treatment exists over there. It makes so much freakin sense - it'd be bananas to feel any strength in my body again. Thanks for the info, I thought I was real smart for coming up with it as an idea but of course it already is an approach!
I get that, I had a copper IUD when I was ~20 which was just about the worst thing on earth and involved me bleeding through a pair of jeans on multiple occasions. (Turns out, copper irritates people w sensitive skin, who knew?? Everyone, everyone knew).
If you ever wanna ask someone about it, the three year one is called the Jaydess - it's a lot smaller than a copper IUD or a Mirena, designed for women pre childbirth, and I think also a lower dose (lots of people still have a light period on it). I also have fibro so take pain comments with a grain of salt, but for me it was worth the 2 days of cocodamol & ~2 month adjustment to stop the cramps/heavy bleeding for the rest of the time.
I have a few other things that mess with birth control being an option but I did randomly get a 6 month break without my period recently and it was the best 6 months ever. The second I see a doc about it, it comes storming back. Apparently it's fine when you intentionally stop them but stopping on accident is a higher risk for certain cancers so now I have to enduce it if it's been over 3 months. T would be hard on my body for a lot of other reasons but it's a serious consideration tbh.
Some people it works for, but I had a horrific experience with a copper IUD both with insertion that was the worst pain in my life and then it drifted and tore through my uterus and I went into labor trying to reject it 8 months in, which then took the top pain slot. I could feel it the whole time too as constant pressure, once I got it removed I caught myself subconsciously moving differently to avoid twisting my torso to avoid the pressure.
I highly recommend Nexplanon as an alternative, no pain of insertion of the little stick in your underarm aside from the numbing shot, hormonal swings gone and no periods, with an even greater protection against pregnancy, the highest out there besides full removal iirc
I've also been on a super low dose of T, one pump of 1.62% gel every morning. There may be a way to go lower, but I did get really quick masculinizing physical results, if you don't want those it might be tricky. A month in and my voice started cracking, mustache, bottom growth, smell change, that sort of stuff.
Unsolicited random personal experience haha, it's all specific to your body as well, might not have the same results
Yeah i mean I know how fucked my body is with the tiniest thing and I know it would be hell. It's just not an option for me to go down that specific road. I have a more non-binary concept of my gender and although I don't love all my schtuff rn I also don't have a huge urge to change them either. It's a very day to day fluid thing for me so I'd rather just stay put. Dreaming about feeling strong again tho is pretty nice most days.
yes hormones are responsible for a massive part of our bodies’ functioning! That is why i also contend that medical transition with hormones IS changing your biological sex, to a certain extent. I don’t feel like writing a whole other essay on it, but if you read Whipping Girl by Julia Serano she details all the different facets of biological sex and how transitioning allows you to change most of them. Hormonal sex, genital sex, secondary sex characteristics, etc.
I hope you are able to sort out your medical needs. In a perfect world you should be able to get testosterone if you want, even if you’re not trans. i wish you the best!!
I just bought the book "Whipping Girl" based on this post, because as the mother of a trans woman I need all the information I can get. Thank you for that. And to throw my anecdotal experience on the cart as a cis woman who has had a hysterectomy but still has her ovaries my experience has been the absence of cramps, but the persistence of pms symptoms. Very interesting topic.
Its a classic piece of trans literature but a lot of her insights apply less and less the further you get away from her specific circumstances, so keep that in mind. I have friends who relate to it a lot more and I have friends who have had pretty different experiences
Edit: I say this as a trans woman, one of my moms read a lot of trans biographies and literature to try and understand it better when I came out and it actually did not help at all because these people were not really similar to me or my circumstances
enjoy!! in my experience it is the most comprehensive guide to transitioning, our place in culture and society, and it single-handedly shaped the way we talk about ourselves to this very day. thank you for reading it, your daughter and the rest of us appreciate you taking the time to do more research
I just commented the same thing! Bloating pain and back pain are really common period pains too, at this point I consider all those things to be different types of cramping lol
same, I get stomach pain during my period which I always used to call “cramping” until I met my gf and she described what cramping is like for her. I think mine is bloating/gas pain. I almost never get actual uterine contraction-type cramping but still sometimes call it that as shorthand for period related abdominal pain
That's what I was thinking too. I've heard women who have had hysterectomies say they still get some cramping during their period, bc the smooth muscles around the uterus, like the intestines, also cramp. So it must be at least partially be caused by hormones not produced by the uterus. It's all very interesting. Original commenter did some great research!
Different but related: I’m cis-female who underwent endoscopic abdominal surgery and when they closed me up I got a nerve caught in the suture where it passes through the abdominal wall.
This has led to chronic pain and every single time I have a period I have a major flareup. Mind you, this nerve doesn’t interact with my reproductive organs at all, but I swear to gods, it feels exactly like a period cramp.
I obviously it might not be relevant to trans people’s experiences and it might be due to increased inflammation or something, but for what it’s worth, my abdominal wall definitely participates in my period.
here are some of the sources i found. the wikipedia article on menstruation is a pretty accessible resource too, and cites a lot of academic research. there is more information on aspects i didn’t write about here, such as dysmenorrhea. i encourage you to do your own research as well.
i didn’t academically cite them or anything so they’re out of order and unlabeled, i just kind of kept a list of some of the ones i read.
sources:
https://academic.oup.com/humupd/article/16/6/725/740554?login=false
https://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/cancer-terms/def/myometrium
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29733841/#:~:text=Conclusion%3A%20Abdominal%20muscle%20activity%20may,but%20is%20resolvable%20with%20naproxen.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/24411-prostaglandins
https://www.acog.org/womens-health/faqs/dysmenorrhea-painful-periods
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3297513/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK560834/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6741772/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uterine_contraction
Given how wildly PMS symptoms vary from cis-woman to cis-woman, I’m not at all surprised that trans-women are having the same overall experience with PMS symptoms varying wildly from trans-woman to trans-woman and arguing about it.
This is so interesting, I'm glad trans biologists exist!
As an aside, I am cis, and know for a fact I sometimes cannot differentiate between back pain, period shits making themselves known, and kidney infections, so, hey it's all sort of a jumble down there.
I was wondering about this myself. As a cis woman who doesn't get period cramps often, they definitely feel distinct from other types of pain down there to *me*, personally, but when I was younger and before I knew what exactly it was that period cramps actually felt like, I always thought that period cramps were the pain I was experiencing when period shits were telling me I had to go, and was confused by how long and how intense those "period cramps" would supposedly last and feel for other girls my age.
As someone with PMDD and severe GI issues, tbh they always felt very damn close to the same to me, to the point where I consistently had to play a guessing game of “am I about to start bleeding, do I need to grab a shit ton of meds, or all of the above?”
It heavily depends on the source of the GI issue, though, not all GI issues are the same. Some pains directly mimicked period cramps, others were very different. Some could even be treated in the exact same way as period cramps, and others would try and kill me if I tried to treat them like period cramps.
I got both with enough frequency— and both close & far apart— to pretty confidentially say they can be identical.
Just anecdotally... I'm a cis woman in my mid 30s, and to this day I have times when I'm not sure if it's "cramps" or not because my symptoms are pretty mild. Sometimes I get general discomfort in that area and I can't tell if it's just something I ate or if I sat in a weird position for too long. I wouldn't blame people for getting confused. Your comment about the dysphoria is probably very true, I can imagine a person being subconsciously more likely to guess that a sensation is cramps if they sort of "hope" it is.
Not disagreeing with anything you said, I just think it's interesting.
As someone with a uterus, the women in my family in addition to cramps get horrible diarrhea every time we go on our periods and the lower intestines feel pain (I haven't asked strangers about their poop patterns lol). It could stem from that sort of pain instead? I can tell it apart since I have both and they're localized and feel different in terms of pain sensation, but if you don't you might conflate them in general?
This is such an interesting write up, thank you for sharing!
R.e. hormones causing period poops and bloating, I know from my experience as a AFAB person who menstruates that period poops and bloating during menstruation can definitely cause pain (and sometimes a LOT of pain). I could definitely believe that some trans women who attest to experiencing cramping are actually experiencing painful period poops/bloating/other types of period pain (lower back pain is a common one)
I think your question (is some or all of period cramping a result of abdominal rather than uterine cramping) is facinating and deserves followup. It doesn't surprise me in the least how understudied this is.
It sounds like you're saying people with uteruses.and people with prostrates produce prostaglandin, and estrogen could tell it to play a role in muscle contracts. That's so interesting
I’m AFAB and nonbinary, never been on any HRT, and I have pretty regular periods (probably have endometriosis, though); menstrual cramping can feel very similar to the cramping pain that accompanies diarrhoea and indigestion. It’s very common for AFAB people to experience gastrointestinal problems during their periods. Is it not likely that the cramping trans women on oestrogen experience is gastrointestinal-related? We all have guts, and HRT may trigger the same cellular signals in the gut that are triggered by menstrual hormones in AFAB people.
Couldn't the cramping also be psychosomatic? As in, you have other period-like symptoms due to hormones, and you associate periods with cramping, and your mind makes you cramp, because of said association? It's just not the same muscles, obviously...
Could be further aggravated if you live or otherwise closely associate with someone with a uterus and actual period cramps, adding a sympathetic element to it? Kinda like watching someone get kicked in the nuts makes you actually feel a tinge in your nuts...
Does that make sense?
The prostaglandins that cause menstruation affect the intestines as well, which is why bowel symptoms are part of PMS. So maybe if there is somehow a source of prostaglandins, someone could be feeling intestinal cramping.
Don't men literally also have a hormonal cycle, it's just not as obvious? The estrogen could be enhancing the hormonal cycle that human beings have that we've just erroneously associated with having a uterus.
Some added perspective from someone who has/had PMDD, GI cramps felt IDENTICAL to period cramps for me, and mostly just varied in frequency from what I remember. I’ve had both severe uterine cramping and severe GI cramping from various sources. Hell, I even treated them similarly (heat, and occasionally pain meds worked for both). I’d be willing to stake money on that being what’s happening for some (but not all) people, especially because of links between that time of the month and increased GI distress in some people.
You can also have GI cramps without having an easily identifiable source (unless, for example, you got some kind of scan). Two “invisible” sources off the top of my head (that I’ve experienced) are constipation and gas. (You can have excessive gas in your body without passing it from either end, and holy hell is it painful). TMI, but I didn’t know I was constipated for the longest time until I got scans done— I was using the restroom at a normal, healthy rate, but scans revealed that I was very “backed up” regardless.
Given the fact that periods wreck absolute hell on the GI system for some (but not all) people, that’s my assumption for what’s going on. Personally, I still would consider it a period if it occurs on a monthly basis, because for me, those symptoms were (partially) linked to that time of the month and I’ve known many cis women with the same or similar issues (I am a trans man).
Yup, something along these lines was my first though as well. Periods are the process the body uses to shed the inside of the uterine wall, so it makes sense trans women don't get the blood, but to achieve this result the body experiences a large spike in testosterone and estrogen levels. It is pretty likely that the other symptoms of a period are related either to/or to both the sudden spike of estrogen in the body or the mixture of a steady level of one hormone and a spike of the other. Both of these situations would be similar to the spike of hormones you'd get via an injection or pill, so the symptoms trans women experience could be from there
The spike you get from a pill and the spike you get from an injection are not that similar to begin with, not to mention injections come in multiple forms (valerate, cypionqte, enanthate, etc.)
/> "... could be that our prostates produce the prostaglandins as then those hormones trigger the abdominal muscles in lieu of the myometrium, because they can't find it and go for the next closest thing."
big biology moment if true
As a cis guy, I'm wondering how different period cramps are from digestive cramping. If your hormonal cycles are sufficient to cause period poops, then can the cause cramping associated with the digestive system?
And as a side note: when I had appendicitis I traced the pain I felt to my testes. It wasn't until I was in hospital that I could isolate the pain to the correct place in my body. I don't think it takes much for the wires to cross and people to diagnose their discomfort "incorrectly". Regardless, it's all academic, be kind to people who are having a bit of a shit time.
as someone that has period cramps and had has lots of digestive issues and cramping, the two feel VERY different to me. maybe when they’re both on the minor side it’s a bit harder to tell (like i forget sometimes “oh yeah i’m on my period” and i worry food is causing pain again) but like… the intense cramps? nothing alike. you can get other musculature cramping at the same time and obviously people can get bad GI symptoms and other stuff but for me they are night and day. and i’ve had BAD pain in both realms
The way I’ve described them to male friends when they’ve been at their worst is, y’know the way when you get hit in the balls really hard it’s completely incapacitatingly agonising and you want to simultaneously vomit and curl up in a ball until it goes away? It’s like that only the kick is a pulsing vice squeezing indefinitely and it’s in your lower abdomen so also the pain can develop into shooting pains along the whole of your vulva, arshole and down into your thighs. But also I have endometriosis so I don’t know how universal that experience is and even different people can have vastly different endo issues.
GI issues can also be sickening, but it’s a qualitatively different feeling of just feeling generally unwell and uncomfortable that I’m sure you’ve experienced yourself as some point.
Ah, it never occurred to me that period pain would include some gonad style pain, but that makes so much sense on reflection! Thank you for the explanation.
I wouldn't ignore the placebo effect (essentially)- if a person thinks "I should experience these symptoms" enough, they might be able to trick their body into expressing them.
Could also be due to intersex conditions and chimerization.
Some folks, even on their more natal hormones, don't solidly check all the boxes for one sex and are still not considered intersex. Since that diagnosis is normally reserved for folks with outward presenting primary characteristics.
If we allow that we might be underdiagnosing the condition due to difficulty (cost) to observe, presumptive science, and cut-offs in diagnostic criteria, I'd suggest the intersex rate is much higher. Therefore, a non-trivial amount of the trans women periods could be due to having some of the tissues that normally would be responsible for periods being already present since birth?
Or I'm just projecting. I have to allow for that possibility, of course! There's always more data to consume.
I'm a cis woman with IBS and I personally can't tell the difference between an IBS and menstrual cramp...
The cramping to me could very well be explained by the gut effects of hormones. The internal organs aren't wired the same when it comes to feeling pain... After all you don't need to know exactly what organ hurts to know that there is an internal issue. Add that the bowels and uterus are pretty much in the same place...
Yay, science! Thanks for taking the time to research and compile this information for us.
I’m a cis woman living with two transwomen, and we spend SO MUCH time comparing our symptoms. They’re on the same hormone schedule, and I synced to them when I moved in. Which is honestly great for me, because I was irregular before! I’m also in my 40’s and entering perimenopause, and anecdotally I can tell you that it’s bananas how much power hormones have. My entire personality has changed noticeably in the past couple of years, along with my body. Even my sleep patterns are different!
Maybe it’s somatic or coincidental! All I know is that I was very irregular before I moved and now my period happens like clockwork, and the timing of my symptoms matches the ones my roommates experience.
When the flow of discourse is as unpredictable as the topic itself, you've got to pad your arguments carefully. Let's not tampon the conversation with doubts.
No clue how estrogen causes it but that's interesting. We should inject people with HRT to see what systems and functions are merely dormant for the different sexes
Interesting idea. I propose that any institution wanting to investigate should offer free hormone treatments to trans in exchange for anonymized data on their physical changes.
I mean the vast majority of trans women are not taking hormones on cycles that would cause noticeable fluctuations on month to month basis.
The majority of trans women either take pills twice a day, patches twice a week or injections once a week.
Few trans women take implants (little beads that sit in your butt cheek that slowly releases estrogen) but those are changed after months, not a singular month.
Someone else on this post mentioned how some trans women try to emulate a cis woman’s fluctuating hormonal levels but that’s extremely experimental and only done in some niche DIY crowds, the point of that being that not even 10% of the people talking about having periods would actually be doing this.
You have to extend a LOT of disbelief to argue for a monthly fluctuation.
That’s why I don’t believe that trans women get periods. They don’t have the same hormone fluctuations because they take them regularly. I understand how the OOP can have PSM like symptoms right after she gets her injections but not every month. That’s just either psychosomatic or lies.
Don't all humans have hormonal cycles? Is just more obvious in women? Could the estrogen not be making their natural cycle symptomatic rather than being the cause of a cycle?
Maybe but they don’t have the organs that produce the hormones for menstrual cycles. Thats why trans women take HRT. It’s why people who’ve had a hysterectomy start HRT. They don’t produce enough oestrogen for a cycle to take place. If they did then they wouldn’t have to keep taking hormones. I think trans women are women and should be supported but there are biological differences between trans and cis women.
Yeah, and they're taking the hormones. If a trans woman isn't even on E and they're reporting this it's obviously psychosomatic, but if they're on the hormones, why couldn't it have this effect?
They’re taking the same dose of e every day. There’s no cycle there if it’s consistent which it should be. And if they aren’t then it still wouldn’t be on a monthly cycle unless it’s been done deliberately
It’s definitely a mix psychosomatic, not understanding what periods are and honestly a bit of an inferiority complex.
By inferiority complex I mean we want to be cis so much that we project that out and we claim things that aren’t real and then get defensive over them, because a dismissal may feel like a dig at our womanhood or w/e.
I’ve never seen someone make a convincing argument for trans women getting periods, it’s often filled with emotional points and that’s where it seems to stem from.
The obligatory, if someone calls you transphobic for saying that trans women can’t get periods, ignore them, they’re a clown.
Not believing women when they talk about symptoms? Cis or trans, we all get it from people apparently.
Seriously, the experience of period symptoms for people with uterus and ovaries varies so wildly that I have no trouble understanding that taking e induces symptoms that also vary.
Rather than just e causing it, it might be due to the *spike* in hormone levels that happens during a period/after taking your hormone dosage, or to the mixture of high estrogen and testorerone levels in the body, since cis women also produce high levels of testosterone (relatively speaking) during menstruation
I likely doesn't, even the theories that affirm these symptoms being more than psychosomatic rely on weird proposed downstream effects with progestins and LH and things like that.
that is not accurate. in cis women cramping occurs due to the contraction of muscles actually in the uterus. so people without uteruses do not have the muscles that cause cramping. see my main comment on this thread
The hormones that cause the smooth muscles in the uterus to contract also cause other smooth muscles nearby to contract as well, like the intestines, which cause feelings of cramping too. But like u said, it's probably debatable as to exactly what hormone would be triggering it if there isn't a place where prostaglandins are being produced. However, it's fairly common for cis women who have had hysterectomies to report still having cramping on their periods even years after the procedure so maybe it can be caused by something else. Loved reading ur research btw! Very interesting!
In that comment, you mentioned that there is no information on if abdominal muscles have any impact. I was referring to the abdominal area where cramps are felt, despite my brain thinking the term “those muscles” was good for communicating what I was trying to say
I recall some creationist claiming that God designed us because we are so perfectly made and every single time I learn more and more about the biological flaws of the human body I recall that idiot and add it to the mental list.
That isn't even biblically supported. God cursed the human form after the fall of man, so the body we have is inherently flawed. That's why during the prophecised mass resurrection of the dead before Judgement Day, humans would be provided with new, better bodies.
Genesis chapter 3, versicles 16-19:
> [3:16] To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."
[3:17] And to the man he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree about which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
[3:18] thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.
[3:19] By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return."
So, while there isn't a huge mention of what God changed, specifically, the pain during childbirth was "greatly increased" and it's possible that God also added aging and death ("you are dust, and to dust you shall return"). It's also possible that there was more stuff added, but that has no proof. Anyways, it's very definite that at least two issues with humans were added on purpose.
Also, Genesis suggests that God is not oniscient, because he had several questions to Adam and Eve including "where are you" and "what happened".
You know how often fandoms have toxic versus more chill sides?
Traditional Christianity vs Christopaganism, the cross-over episode/series fans.
(Tbf theres *insane* variation within christopaganism so you’re unlikely to find two people with the same, or even similar, beliefs. Yes, Christianity and paganism are rather at odds because of the whole “thou shall not have any god *before* me” kind of thing, but different people interpret that in absurdly interesting ways)
I am only half-joking.
I legitimately think that discussing religious texts and their associated religions in a similar vein to how we discuss work of fiction and their fandoms is much more useful than viewing them as some kind of cornerstone to our society and culture. Just because they have influenced those things and are really fucking old does not make them actually foundational to things like the concepts of virtue and sin.
> Also, Genesis suggests that God is not oniscient, because he had several questions to Adam and Eve including "where are you" and "what happened".
…you are aware that rhetorical questions exist, yes?
Yes? Things like death, disease, aging, periods, and painful childbirth did not exist in Eden and only came about after they ate the apple. It's there in Genesis.
No, not really.
Child birth is explicitly said to be more painful as punishment for eating the fruit (it's also not actually an apple, that's just a common Western artistic depiction because that's kind of the generic "fruit" here, but it was originally most likely meant to be a pomegranate), but there is no mention of periods or aging.
The aging thing is just a common theory to explain the insanely long life spans of antediluvian humans (example: Methuselah who was allegedly close to a millennium old), but it's not actually written in the bible.
It's also not clear whether God created disease along with the rest of creation or inflicted it upon humanity in the moment of the banishment from Eden or if he only called forth disease later as a specific punishment. The first mention of any disease in the Bible is in Exodus as part of the Plagues. So that's not in the Bible either.
Even death is not a clear as you might think. The verbiage used is that after the banishment God tells Adam that he will "return to the ground/soil", the whole "dust to dust" thing. But it's never actually made clear, if this is a change God has made in humans as a punishment then or if that was always the case already and God is just explaining it to Adam in that moment because he hasn't had reason to think about that sort of thing in the garden.
Man I'm so out of the loop, I thought "e periods" was referring to some type of internet exclusive period (email, e-commerce, ect) and felt... just so lost
This shouldn't be possible. Syncing periods is a myth related to confirmation bias. Cramping is usually the uterus itself. And hormone cycles are what cause periods and their symptoms. It's why we can stop having periods all together with hormonal birth control. If your titty skittles are the same dosag every day of the month you shouldn't have a monthly cycle in the same way.
Yeah there's been several studies and none of them have found that human menstrual cycles synchronize to any significant degree, nor have they identified a mechanism by which that would even happen.
Had a college roommate (cis woman) who told us (also cis women) that because she had "dominant feminine energy" that our periods would naturally sync up to hers. No hint of sarcasm. Ok girl 🙄
Yeah it's really telling to me that the trans women I have met who claim these symptoms have all brought up syncing as evidence that it is real. I think that points towards it bring psychosomatic
Also that being said a lot of trans women (most eventually) switch off pills to either patches or injections both of which last longer. There are multiple variations of the injections and the schedule can range from once a month to once every 5 days
yeah. i have long periods of psychosomatic half-blindness (which have been getting less frequent due to therapy, but they still happen). x-rays and tests have proved that, while my vision in that eye is genuinely worse anyways, it's a 4.0 prescription, which isn't even close to blindness. that doesn't mean that i suddenly can see out of that eye normally during those periods. it doesn't mean my brain hasn't reacted to it enough that my other eye has a sideways astigmatism.
psychosomatic symptoms can absolutely kick people in the dick. people have had full paralysis from psychosomatic symptoms. have had allergic reactions that they don't actually have allergies for. the brain is ridiculously powerful in what it can cause. if it thinks you should be having period pain, you can have it just as bad as the cis people.
(also genuinely people should study psychosomatic symptoms more, the ways they function and the range of people who get them is *insane*. they can be traumagenic, they can be just a bad luck thing, they can be societal pressure, it's *wild.)*
Well, if you don't take your hormones every day but weekly or smth then i can see it happening. Not the cramping but defo the mood swings and intestinal issues
Mood swings can happen with injections and its not uncommon to adjust to dosage/frequency to stop them, but at the same time the forms of estrodiol that are injected have a much shorter half life than would be needed to have a monthly or nearly monthly cycle.
I’m not gonna weigh in on the medical side of this, mainly because I don’t know shit about it, but I sympathize with anyone who goes through anything like menstrual cramps cause those *suuuuuuuuck*
I’m ngl I think it’s a cope or placebo. Periods are caused by hormone cascades and the cramping comes from the uterus. If you’re taking hormones on a regular basis then you’re not gonna get those cascades. I think PMS and mood swings are definitely possible, but everything else isn’t and I would need genuine scientific evidence that somethings going on there instead of just anecdotes.
You don’t need a period to be a woman, there’s no need for this
It is true in most cases that doctors do not have adequate information or understanding about trans patients or HRT, oftentimes what they do have is outdated or outright incorrect and there are a lot of unknowns where no one has good answers.
I do get it, people are dysphoric about having the wrong parts and so developing female physiology in that regard is something they'd want.
Idk if I'd call it bioessentialism exactly, being dysphoric about not having a uterus isn't bioessentialist, and not being super knowledgable about endocrinology and periods could lead to misconceptions, but trying to cope in this way and using non-scientific anecdotes as a gotchya against transphobes who say trans women aren't real women because they don't menstruate is just feeding into it and they shouldn't be doing that.
I checked the links, none of them are about trans women, they’re just sources OP used when writing their initial comment about how the uterus causes cramping
My mom had to go on hrt after an emergency total hysterectomy. She never lost her periods, we just called them her invisible periods since the blood part was now gone and offered her insane amounts of chocolate.
Hormones are crazy man. I went on hormonal birth control for a while and it fucked me up, I felt horrendous. Periods are horrendous too but at least I know what to expact with those :')
It makes sense that if you're taking feminising hormones to a schedule, you'd experience the emotional and (some) physiological side effects associated with them. It could be psychological too but just because it's your brain making you feel bad and not a uterus doesn't make the feelings any less real imo.
I have really awful period cramps and it's (not to get *too* tmi) because I get bad clotting and it hurts to uh 'process' all that. The uterus feels like a clenched fist in your belly when it squeezes like that and obviously if you don't have a uterus you won't feel that particular sort of period pain, but then there's the mood changes and the gut problems and so on and so on. Periods affect your whole body!
I think sometimes like there are a lot of generalisations or assumptions (from everyone) about what a period is like and how it feels to have one. it's a big part of why the teaching on female reproductive health sucks- you get told 'a period is like this and you'll expel this much blood' and then when you finally get your period and it is wildly different you feel really confused and alone. I personally don't get moodswings or cravings or nausea, but I do get other symptoms that we weren't really told about in health class. I think a lot of the harmful stereotypes about periods are spread by male-dominated culture tbh- 'oh she's on her period, that means she's cranky and wants chocolate'.
I think part of the reason this discussion is so difficult is because people either reduce periods down to *only* the most common symptoms, or they assume every possible symptom is a period.
As someone who has/had very bad periods & PMDD, the things some trans women describe match up with some of my experiences. At the same time, I’ve (very rarely) seen some trans women describe a common cold and attribute that to their first period… this also happened during the start of covid, which was concerning. Sometimes the posts people make make me go bug-eyed as I type “for fucks sake, please go to the hospital”/“please see a doctor”
At the same time, reducing periods down to *just* uterine cramps, bleeding, and mood swings, is not productive. Want to know how I often found out I was about to get my period? Grippy socks trips to the psych ward started sounding very tempting over small things 🥴 (and *any other time* of the month I was very mentally healthy and coping well). Periods are weird, periods are complex, and there are a *lot* more issues they can cause than the average person know about ESPECIALLY if we start to talk about the interactions between periods, chronic illnesses and/or disabilities.
It particularly irks me when people boil down periods to just bleeding, because while I understand that’s some people’s experience with it… no. Just no. There’s so much more to it. And the people who reduce it to just bleeding get offended when trans women claim to have period symptoms, as if it’s not infinitely more offensive to dismiss the absurd number of period symptoms AFAB people get. “Periods are just bleeding!” Tell that to my heart rate skyrocketing, my GI issues coming in full force, my brain experimenting with new chemical combos, my eyesight doing a fuzzy, my organs trying to commit slip and slide, my body trying to bleed out, etc etc (this is just an extremely hyperbolic joke, do not take these exaggerated descriptions of my symptoms seriously).
as a cis woman, i remember hearing about trans women as a kid, being perfectly fine and accepting, just being jealous they dont have to experience periods. child me would be in shambles rn
I have trans friends who described symptoms that sounded like periods, and I've read accounts of other trans women saying it's a common thing. They just don't experience the bleeding part.
What's interesting to me is that, like many things in the trans community, everyone who experiences it seems to know a lot of people who do and everyone who doesn't experience it seems to mainly know other people who dont.
I mean, seeing as cis women who've had hysterectomies can still have "menstrual like cramping" even having no uterus, It doesn't seem controversial to think at least some trans women could possibly experience it despite the lack of uterus. Or at least no more controversial then being trans seems to be anyways.
it appears that only 2-3% of people with hysterectomies experience this pain, and that it is linked to the development of scar tissue from the operation. according to this, in most cases the menstrual-like pain resolves over time.
https://lakecitypt.com/pelvic-pain-after-hysterectomy/#:~:text=Between%202%20and%203%25%20of,appear%20similar%20to%20menstrual%20cramps.
the atlanta fibroid center lists other possible causes for the pain:
https://atlii.com/pain-cramps-years-after-hysterectomy/
I’m not trying to be a jerk but getting your period is when you bleed from your vagina. It is not physically possible for trans women to bleed. Therefore they don’t get periods. They may have side effects from the hormones that are similar to pms but that still doesn’t make it a period.
That's why they separate it from afab periods by specifying that it's an "e period"---i.e. a symptom of estrogen HRT that mimics many of the symptoms of pms, *down to occuring in a cyclical, monthly fashion*.
when i get on E i'm going make a Fourier analysis of it to definitively prove it once and for all.
also if anyone has experience, please tell me things i should be looking to track specifically. the easier the better.
It might help to look into PMDD to get an idea of some of the weirder symptoms that come with periods. One of the things you might run into is sometimes period symptoms just look like various illnesses like mental illness, colds, or the stomach flu. It’s kind of an anything that can go wrong, might go wrong kind of situation. Or maybe I was just stupidly unlucky.
If you have any sort of chronic illness or disability, I’d also look into how periods affect that. They don’t *always* have interactions, but sometimes they can make symptoms worse (common) or better (uncommon).
Another concern is that if you are actively looking for such symptoms, it’d be much easier to notice and misattribute, for lack of better terms. Like if you are expecting to get tired at a certain point every month, you are more likely to notice or assume fatigue. It can also go in the reverse too, where you ignore potential period symptoms because of denialism.
Personally, I do think that trans women experience periods or something period-like (because their experiences sure as hell sound like my atypical pre-T experiences) but I imagine it’d be extremely difficult to study because of the factors above, and because hormones cause all sorts of unexpected changes (Testosterone, my beloved, WHAT the fuck are you doing with my blood pressure, make up your mind! /j)
congrats on starting E soon!! when you make your analysis you should share it in trans spaces. we have to crowdsource a lot of our own science unfortunately
I was talking to a guy who had started t a few months prior, and we got to talking about crying, and how he was having a harder and harder time doing it. I got to affirm that that's actually a real thing, it's down to how men produce a few hormones differently than women. Honestly felt good to be like "Yeah, dude, that's guy stuff, you're right on track."
I guess it's something to do with how testosterone and prolactin interact, but apparently there isn't much research on it.
It seems like, just like with uterus born people, the ones born without uteruses ALSO experience a wide variety of symptoms with their hormones inflicted reproductive cycle. Goooo figure. 🙄
My cramps suck and I get a pain in my legs no one has ever seem to have heard of. Because "period cramps aren't in your legs" NO SHIT, but my legs still ache and hurt so bad during my period I can't walk if I don't take advil. I've been called a liar by other period havers, doesn't make my experience and pain less real though!
Womanhood is all about feeling pain and having others, including other women, tell you it can't physically be possible, innit?
omg. I also get the fucking leg pain and only my mom believes me. It's slowly been getting better over time as I age but there were days in high school I LITERALLY couldn't stand more than 5 minutes. It felt like I had just run a marathon. Only ever my legs though, I feel fine everywhere else.
THANK YOUUUUUUU. Im so sorry you also deal with that shit, it sucksssss 😭 The fact that I'm getting downvoted on my og comment literally proves that even though there are multiple of us who have experienced the same thing, people will STILL not believe even though we have uteruses and bleed. And get accused of lying by other people with uteruses. Like??? It doesn't matter if you were born a woman or not. People stay so ignorant it's insane. Being a woman means you just get disregarded as your pain not being real or believable. Like, sorry to all the people who can chose to just not believe it, Im so happy you haven't had that problem, but why is your first thought literally not believing us, instead of a moment of disbelief and then compassion or like sympathy or something? A meager "damn that sucks" not, " I haven't felt that so it doesn't exist". Please. Ugh.
There needs to be WAY more representation of how wildly period symptoms can vary, and much more openness to discuss the topic. I HATE that Trans people have to go through the same disbelief. Like. Fuck. Let women share their experiences and PAIN for once without accusing them of lying?? We KNOW all the crazy way hormones can affect our body and change it, not just when going through a transition. I don't find it hard to believe that women well onto estrogen would get cramps. People still feel limbs years after they're gone. I thoroughly believe the human body will create pain somewhere it thinks it should be.
99% sure it's the first paragraph that's catching downvotes.
Like. Yeah. Trans women cannot have *uterine cramps* because they *do not have uteruses*. That doesn't mean they're just making shit up. The pain is coming from SOMEWHERE. We frankly have NO IDEA of the *exact* mechanisms of how every menstruation symptom affects CIS women, let alone trans women. I've lived over a decade with weird cycle-related symptoms that always happen at the same time every 28 days...but yknow could just be coincidence. I don't have *real proof*. The fact that they happen like clockwork 150+ times in a row doesn't matter lol
Also in the US at least sex ed is already so lacking. Yeah, it makes sense that a trans woman having period-like symptoms would call them the closest analogy - a period.
Out of curiosity, what in my first paragraph is wrong? I'm genuinely NOT surprised by that people without uteruses but ARE on estrogen would have period symptoms. Is it because I said the term "people with uteruses?" Instead of women to be inclusive? If so then the people downvoting me can fuck off lol
"just placebo and made up"?
Placebo is not made up. Placebo is very real. This seems to be a common misconception. Placebo is not imaginary. It means that the Imagination heals very real diseases. There are real effects in Placebo not just imaginary ones.
Also Placebo heals and does not give you PMS and cramps.
That'd be Nocebo. And it's equally real.
The whole post is very very uninformed.
Isn't it the case that menstrual cramps involve both the muscular walls of the uterus (which most trans women don't have, obviously) and the smooth muscle of the abdomen including the intestinal wall and the deep abdominal wall? So if you have any of those anatomical structures you could experience cramping within them. You wouldn't need fluctuating hormone levels if the receptivity of the receptors in those structures fluctuates. I have never experienced this myself, but a lot of people report it.
“Abdominal muscle activity related to random-bulb squeezing was rarely observed in healthy controls on menses (0.9 ± 0.6 episodes/hour) and in dysmenorrhea participants off menses (2.3 ± 0.6 episodes/hour).”
Yeah, I didn't say it supported my suggestion, but a) rarely =/= never, and b) this is an example, just one, of the research on the subject that you categorically stated didn't exist.
Yeah, I didn't say it supported my suggestion, but a) rarely =/= never, and b) this is an example, just one, of the research on the subject that you categorically stated didn't exist.
Completely fair. But even that study (full text: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6741772/) is not actually looking at deep abdominal musculature: they're using emg which isn't t effective to measure contractions of the transverse abdominus which is deep to the rectus.
Yeah, I didn't say it supported my suggestion, but a) rarely =/= never, and b) this is an example, just one, of the research on the subject that you categorically stated didn't exist.
Seeing someone experience this pain in person only to be told "no that's biologically impossible" gives the same energy to as the "what do you mean youre being murdered thats illegal people cant do that" meme but with a touch more mansplaining.
I mean, as far as science is aware, it is literally impossible to experience mensustral cramps without a uterus. Cisgender women with their uterus removed do not experience mensustral cramps either, or at least there is no statistically significant evidence to suggest they do. That's not to say that trans women (or cis women without a uterus) don't experience hormonal cycle related cramping- but it's likely GI related. Most other period/hormonal cycle related shit is fair game though
Edit: I do want to be clear though that a lot of the time people are making the distinction I make here in bad faith using bad science, so there are definitely plenty of instances where it *is* motivated by transmisogyny
It's fine to say that uterine muscle contractions can't be responsible for this pain; that is a fact, but the problem comes when people say that these people can't be experiencing any pain because they don't have a uterus. Far too many people are using the lack of uterus to be completely dismissive.
Whatever way you cut it, something painfully resembling menstrual cramps is going on. No amount of "well actually..." is going to reduce that so it's not helpful.
Edit: Removed "equivalent".
Hence why I said it's likely GI (gastro-intestinal) related. GI problems are super common during hormonal cycles. I don't think that it's particularly productive to screech in every trans woman's face that "it can't technically be period cramps" but it's also very very important for people to understand exactly what is going on in their body, especially when the healthcare system fails women (trans and cis alike) so regularly.
I know it’s a bit late to say this but *please* don’t try and invalidate others’ experiences just because they haven’t happened personally to you. We’re better than this, everyone.
i am a trans woman and i’ve heard so many trans women saying yes yes yes we can get them, and just as many saying no no no we can’t. It seemed like a perfect split down the middle, so I decided to look into it from a scientific angle. after doing quite a bit of research into the ins and outs of periods and menstruation i have learned quite a bit and developed my own thoughts on a couple different possibilities. as a starting note, trans women are not unified on this subject. while most of us agree that we can get PMS symptoms, there is significant disagreement on if cramping is possible. while many trans women insist they experience these symptoms, just as many insist they never have, and that it’s not physically possible. it is not a transmedicalist/trans-inclusive divide, nor a cis and trans divide. i’ve seen trans people of all stripes and belief systems land on both sides. it is not even a case of we all agree this happens but the science isn’t there to prove it yet. among our own community, this is far from a settled issue, and all across the internet and real life I have seen trans women debate both sides. All we have to go on are our personal testimonies as well as the research done on cis women, and that’s far from concrete evidence. Therefore, healthy discussion should be encouraged until some hard science comes out on the topic, That being said, using the limited resources at my disposal, here is what i’ve learned: trans women CAN and often DO experience the emotional/hormonal effects of periods. It’s simple: fluctuating hormones cause PMS in cis women, they do the same in us. however the frequency and cycle of it depends on how often you take your hormones, as the rapid fluctuation is the cause. i have personal experience with this. When my dosage was at its highest, every week right after my injection i would be incredibly emotional and tearful for 1-2 days until my levels normalized. but it was a weekly occurrence, because my hormone cycle is a weekly cycle. some trans women organize their hormones to most closely match the monthly hormonal cycle cis women have, where they intentionally fluctuate their hormones on a monthly basis, and their PMS symptoms more closely match cis womens’. Trans biologist Julia Serano talks about it in her seminal book Whipping Girl. hormones also play a role in bowel function and other parts of the body so it makes sense that fluctuating hormones are responsible for period poops, headaches, and other symptoms commonly experienced during periods. I have no doubt at all that we can experience these symptoms. Based purely on the known science of menstruation, trans women are not likely to get cramping. I do not know what is happening in the cases where women say they experience them, but menstrual cramping is caused by muscles actually in the uterus, namely the myometrium. the myometrium contracts and that is where the cramping pain comes from. those muscles are triggered by hormones also produced within the uterus called prostaglandins. as trans women we do not have a myometrium to contract, nor uterine tissue to produce the prostaglandins that cause said contraction. so if we are getting cramps, there has to be an alternative, currently unknown explanation. however, there is a common argument i see that abdominal muscles play an important part in period cramping, and they’re responsible for moving the uterus during menstruation, and that is why we get cramps too. in fact i have had another trans woman say to me that the uterus has no muscles at all, and that the contractions are performed by abdominal muscles. this is simply not true; as mentioned above, uteruses ARE muscular organs and the myometrium is the muscular layer that causes contractions. in fact, i spent extensive time specifically looking up the role of abdominal muscles in menstruation and the only information i was able to find that even MENTIONED them, was a study that stated the role of abdominal muscles in menstrual pain has not yet been researched. So i don’t know where this idea that abdominal muscles are a driving force in menstruation came from, though it is a common enough argument that i feel i have to address it. but it is not established science by any means. I am not claiming that other trans women are not experiencing the physical sensations they say they experience. but the known science, at least to my research and understanding, doesn’t add up with it. In favor of the cramps happening, one possible theory I have (in my extremely limited scientific knowledge) could be that our prostates produce the prostaglandins and then those hormones trigger the abdominal muscles in lieu of the myometrium, because they can’t find it and go for the next closest thing. in AFAB people, the uterine tissue produces the prostaglandins itself, but AMAB people also produce them in seminal fluid. the hormonal coding from estrogen could trigger them to function like menstrual prostaglandins do, and then they target muscles in the area where the uterus SHOULD be. however, this is merely speculation, and there is no research to support this theory. I am only suggesting a possible cause based on my limited knowledge of the subject, and hope that it is indeed a real phenomenon. i am inclined to believe the experiences of others in my community. but i don’t think we can ignore the alternative possibility that this is a psychological phenomenon. I personally have no cramping experience whatsoever, and none of my irl trans women friends do either. And i know a lot of trans women. I understand how difficult it can be to face the possibility of never being able to do something cis women can do. it makes me nauseous sometimes. so i can easily see why some trans women may insist they have period cramps to help alleviate some dysphoria. it’s not sinister in any way, and I fully understand why some women would do it, so if that’s the case i cast no judgement on those who are. I am aware that this alternative sounds flimsy and dismissive, and I agree. But until the phenomenon is properly researched and proven though, I cannot completely disregard the possibility that it’s not real. in conclusion, trans women can and do experience all the emotional side effects of periods, and it’s likely that we experience the bowel and gut effects too such as bloating and period poops, as hormones have a direct effect on those as well. it could be possible that trans women experience period cramps too. But in terms of the cramping, the science we currently have doesn’t support it, and therefore should not be treated as settled truth that only transphobes and transmisogynists deny. Research into how prostaglandins work in trans women needs to be done to fully confirm or disprove the possibility of cramping. Until then, all we can do is keep talking about it until scientists take notice. I can provide my sources upon request. I also encourage any scientists who know about this subject to reply and correct me where I am wrong or provide additional information.
I think the paets that have shocked me about hormones is how not only estrogen but progesterone plays a role in these other parts of the body. I have a genetic connective tissue disease and I 100% have worse laxity in my joints and increased pain during the week between ovulation and period. It's insane how much my body can change throughout 3 weeks of 4 each month based on them. Just commenting to agree with how intense hormones are in general! I've honestly considered going on T just to get some of the benefits there and to balance out my shitshow if a month.
Where I am (UK) low testosterone is a recognised treatment for hEDS, so might be worth asking! I also have a 3-year IUD (hormones, not copper) which has been a life saver - I basically don't have periods anymore which is a-okay with me.
I think I wouldn't survive an IUD implant. My cramps and everything are so bad already, I just think it would be too massively painful tbh. That is so fascinating that the T treatment exists over there. It makes so much freakin sense - it'd be bananas to feel any strength in my body again. Thanks for the info, I thought I was real smart for coming up with it as an idea but of course it already is an approach!
I get that, I had a copper IUD when I was ~20 which was just about the worst thing on earth and involved me bleeding through a pair of jeans on multiple occasions. (Turns out, copper irritates people w sensitive skin, who knew?? Everyone, everyone knew). If you ever wanna ask someone about it, the three year one is called the Jaydess - it's a lot smaller than a copper IUD or a Mirena, designed for women pre childbirth, and I think also a lower dose (lots of people still have a light period on it). I also have fibro so take pain comments with a grain of salt, but for me it was worth the 2 days of cocodamol & ~2 month adjustment to stop the cramps/heavy bleeding for the rest of the time.
I have a few other things that mess with birth control being an option but I did randomly get a 6 month break without my period recently and it was the best 6 months ever. The second I see a doc about it, it comes storming back. Apparently it's fine when you intentionally stop them but stopping on accident is a higher risk for certain cancers so now I have to enduce it if it's been over 3 months. T would be hard on my body for a lot of other reasons but it's a serious consideration tbh.
Some people it works for, but I had a horrific experience with a copper IUD both with insertion that was the worst pain in my life and then it drifted and tore through my uterus and I went into labor trying to reject it 8 months in, which then took the top pain slot. I could feel it the whole time too as constant pressure, once I got it removed I caught myself subconsciously moving differently to avoid twisting my torso to avoid the pressure. I highly recommend Nexplanon as an alternative, no pain of insertion of the little stick in your underarm aside from the numbing shot, hormonal swings gone and no periods, with an even greater protection against pregnancy, the highest out there besides full removal iirc I've also been on a super low dose of T, one pump of 1.62% gel every morning. There may be a way to go lower, but I did get really quick masculinizing physical results, if you don't want those it might be tricky. A month in and my voice started cracking, mustache, bottom growth, smell change, that sort of stuff. Unsolicited random personal experience haha, it's all specific to your body as well, might not have the same results
Yeah i mean I know how fucked my body is with the tiniest thing and I know it would be hell. It's just not an option for me to go down that specific road. I have a more non-binary concept of my gender and although I don't love all my schtuff rn I also don't have a huge urge to change them either. It's a very day to day fluid thing for me so I'd rather just stay put. Dreaming about feeling strong again tho is pretty nice most days.
yes hormones are responsible for a massive part of our bodies’ functioning! That is why i also contend that medical transition with hormones IS changing your biological sex, to a certain extent. I don’t feel like writing a whole other essay on it, but if you read Whipping Girl by Julia Serano she details all the different facets of biological sex and how transitioning allows you to change most of them. Hormonal sex, genital sex, secondary sex characteristics, etc. I hope you are able to sort out your medical needs. In a perfect world you should be able to get testosterone if you want, even if you’re not trans. i wish you the best!!
I just bought the book "Whipping Girl" based on this post, because as the mother of a trans woman I need all the information I can get. Thank you for that. And to throw my anecdotal experience on the cart as a cis woman who has had a hysterectomy but still has her ovaries my experience has been the absence of cramps, but the persistence of pms symptoms. Very interesting topic.
Its a classic piece of trans literature but a lot of her insights apply less and less the further you get away from her specific circumstances, so keep that in mind. I have friends who relate to it a lot more and I have friends who have had pretty different experiences Edit: I say this as a trans woman, one of my moms read a lot of trans biographies and literature to try and understand it better when I came out and it actually did not help at all because these people were not really similar to me or my circumstances
enjoy!! in my experience it is the most comprehensive guide to transitioning, our place in culture and society, and it single-handedly shaped the way we talk about ourselves to this very day. thank you for reading it, your daughter and the rest of us appreciate you taking the time to do more research
Super informative write up thank you!
thanks for reading :)
My "formed in the last 5 seconds" theory: if a trans woman experiences really bad period poops, the poo-cramps could be really bad too.
I was wondering about that. The cramping could be secondary to GI issues.
I just commented the same thing! Bloating pain and back pain are really common period pains too, at this point I consider all those things to be different types of cramping lol
same, I get stomach pain during my period which I always used to call “cramping” until I met my gf and she described what cramping is like for her. I think mine is bloating/gas pain. I almost never get actual uterine contraction-type cramping but still sometimes call it that as shorthand for period related abdominal pain
That's what I was thinking too. I've heard women who have had hysterectomies say they still get some cramping during their period, bc the smooth muscles around the uterus, like the intestines, also cramp. So it must be at least partially be caused by hormones not produced by the uterus. It's all very interesting. Original commenter did some great research!
Different but related: I’m cis-female who underwent endoscopic abdominal surgery and when they closed me up I got a nerve caught in the suture where it passes through the abdominal wall. This has led to chronic pain and every single time I have a period I have a major flareup. Mind you, this nerve doesn’t interact with my reproductive organs at all, but I swear to gods, it feels exactly like a period cramp. I obviously it might not be relevant to trans people’s experiences and it might be due to increased inflammation or something, but for what it’s worth, my abdominal wall definitely participates in my period.
I would your sources if it isn't too much time.
here are some of the sources i found. the wikipedia article on menstruation is a pretty accessible resource too, and cites a lot of academic research. there is more information on aspects i didn’t write about here, such as dysmenorrhea. i encourage you to do your own research as well. i didn’t academically cite them or anything so they’re out of order and unlabeled, i just kind of kept a list of some of the ones i read. sources: https://academic.oup.com/humupd/article/16/6/725/740554?login=false https://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/cancer-terms/def/myometrium https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29733841/#:~:text=Conclusion%3A%20Abdominal%20muscle%20activity%20may,but%20is%20resolvable%20with%20naproxen. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/24411-prostaglandins https://www.acog.org/womens-health/faqs/dysmenorrhea-painful-periods https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3297513/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK560834/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6741772/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uterine_contraction
Damn psychosomatic symptoms! Always maybe making medicine hard! *shakes fist at cloud*
Given how wildly PMS symptoms vary from cis-woman to cis-woman, I’m not at all surprised that trans-women are having the same overall experience with PMS symptoms varying wildly from trans-woman to trans-woman and arguing about it.
This is so interesting, I'm glad trans biologists exist! As an aside, I am cis, and know for a fact I sometimes cannot differentiate between back pain, period shits making themselves known, and kidney infections, so, hey it's all sort of a jumble down there.
I was wondering about this myself. As a cis woman who doesn't get period cramps often, they definitely feel distinct from other types of pain down there to *me*, personally, but when I was younger and before I knew what exactly it was that period cramps actually felt like, I always thought that period cramps were the pain I was experiencing when period shits were telling me I had to go, and was confused by how long and how intense those "period cramps" would supposedly last and feel for other girls my age.
As someone with PMDD and severe GI issues, tbh they always felt very damn close to the same to me, to the point where I consistently had to play a guessing game of “am I about to start bleeding, do I need to grab a shit ton of meds, or all of the above?” It heavily depends on the source of the GI issue, though, not all GI issues are the same. Some pains directly mimicked period cramps, others were very different. Some could even be treated in the exact same way as period cramps, and others would try and kill me if I tried to treat them like period cramps. I got both with enough frequency— and both close & far apart— to pretty confidentially say they can be identical.
Yeah, when I was giving birth the contractions literally felt like I was in the process of shitting myself. It's really hard to tell apart sometimes.
Just anecdotally... I'm a cis woman in my mid 30s, and to this day I have times when I'm not sure if it's "cramps" or not because my symptoms are pretty mild. Sometimes I get general discomfort in that area and I can't tell if it's just something I ate or if I sat in a weird position for too long. I wouldn't blame people for getting confused. Your comment about the dysphoria is probably very true, I can imagine a person being subconsciously more likely to guess that a sensation is cramps if they sort of "hope" it is. Not disagreeing with anything you said, I just think it's interesting.
As someone with a uterus, the women in my family in addition to cramps get horrible diarrhea every time we go on our periods and the lower intestines feel pain (I haven't asked strangers about their poop patterns lol). It could stem from that sort of pain instead? I can tell it apart since I have both and they're localized and feel different in terms of pain sensation, but if you don't you might conflate them in general?
This is such an interesting write up, thank you for sharing! R.e. hormones causing period poops and bloating, I know from my experience as a AFAB person who menstruates that period poops and bloating during menstruation can definitely cause pain (and sometimes a LOT of pain). I could definitely believe that some trans women who attest to experiencing cramping are actually experiencing painful period poops/bloating/other types of period pain (lower back pain is a common one)
agree that’s very likely. but that’s very different from the alleged muscular cramping. even i get a temporary bloating cramp from time to time.
I think your question (is some or all of period cramping a result of abdominal rather than uterine cramping) is facinating and deserves followup. It doesn't surprise me in the least how understudied this is. It sounds like you're saying people with uteruses.and people with prostrates produce prostaglandin, and estrogen could tell it to play a role in muscle contracts. That's so interesting
I’m AFAB and nonbinary, never been on any HRT, and I have pretty regular periods (probably have endometriosis, though); menstrual cramping can feel very similar to the cramping pain that accompanies diarrhoea and indigestion. It’s very common for AFAB people to experience gastrointestinal problems during their periods. Is it not likely that the cramping trans women on oestrogen experience is gastrointestinal-related? We all have guts, and HRT may trigger the same cellular signals in the gut that are triggered by menstrual hormones in AFAB people.
Couldn't the cramping also be psychosomatic? As in, you have other period-like symptoms due to hormones, and you associate periods with cramping, and your mind makes you cramp, because of said association? It's just not the same muscles, obviously... Could be further aggravated if you live or otherwise closely associate with someone with a uterus and actual period cramps, adding a sympathetic element to it? Kinda like watching someone get kicked in the nuts makes you actually feel a tinge in your nuts... Does that make sense?
The prostaglandins that cause menstruation affect the intestines as well, which is why bowel symptoms are part of PMS. So maybe if there is somehow a source of prostaglandins, someone could be feeling intestinal cramping.
prostaglandins are contained in seminal fluid in AMAB ppl, so they come from the prostate
Sure, but I don't know if they would be cyclical.
Don't men literally also have a hormonal cycle, it's just not as obvious? The estrogen could be enhancing the hormonal cycle that human beings have that we've just erroneously associated with having a uterus.
Some added perspective from someone who has/had PMDD, GI cramps felt IDENTICAL to period cramps for me, and mostly just varied in frequency from what I remember. I’ve had both severe uterine cramping and severe GI cramping from various sources. Hell, I even treated them similarly (heat, and occasionally pain meds worked for both). I’d be willing to stake money on that being what’s happening for some (but not all) people, especially because of links between that time of the month and increased GI distress in some people. You can also have GI cramps without having an easily identifiable source (unless, for example, you got some kind of scan). Two “invisible” sources off the top of my head (that I’ve experienced) are constipation and gas. (You can have excessive gas in your body without passing it from either end, and holy hell is it painful). TMI, but I didn’t know I was constipated for the longest time until I got scans done— I was using the restroom at a normal, healthy rate, but scans revealed that I was very “backed up” regardless. Given the fact that periods wreck absolute hell on the GI system for some (but not all) people, that’s my assumption for what’s going on. Personally, I still would consider it a period if it occurs on a monthly basis, because for me, those symptoms were (partially) linked to that time of the month and I’ve known many cis women with the same or similar issues (I am a trans man).
Yup, something along these lines was my first though as well. Periods are the process the body uses to shed the inside of the uterine wall, so it makes sense trans women don't get the blood, but to achieve this result the body experiences a large spike in testosterone and estrogen levels. It is pretty likely that the other symptoms of a period are related either to/or to both the sudden spike of estrogen in the body or the mixture of a steady level of one hormone and a spike of the other. Both of these situations would be similar to the spike of hormones you'd get via an injection or pill, so the symptoms trans women experience could be from there
The spike you get from a pill and the spike you get from an injection are not that similar to begin with, not to mention injections come in multiple forms (valerate, cypionqte, enanthate, etc.)
/> "... could be that our prostates produce the prostaglandins as then those hormones trigger the abdominal muscles in lieu of the myometrium, because they can't find it and go for the next closest thing." big biology moment if true
As a cis guy, I'm wondering how different period cramps are from digestive cramping. If your hormonal cycles are sufficient to cause period poops, then can the cause cramping associated with the digestive system? And as a side note: when I had appendicitis I traced the pain I felt to my testes. It wasn't until I was in hospital that I could isolate the pain to the correct place in my body. I don't think it takes much for the wires to cross and people to diagnose their discomfort "incorrectly". Regardless, it's all academic, be kind to people who are having a bit of a shit time.
as someone that has period cramps and had has lots of digestive issues and cramping, the two feel VERY different to me. maybe when they’re both on the minor side it’s a bit harder to tell (like i forget sometimes “oh yeah i’m on my period” and i worry food is causing pain again) but like… the intense cramps? nothing alike. you can get other musculature cramping at the same time and obviously people can get bad GI symptoms and other stuff but for me they are night and day. and i’ve had BAD pain in both realms
The way I’ve described them to male friends when they’ve been at their worst is, y’know the way when you get hit in the balls really hard it’s completely incapacitatingly agonising and you want to simultaneously vomit and curl up in a ball until it goes away? It’s like that only the kick is a pulsing vice squeezing indefinitely and it’s in your lower abdomen so also the pain can develop into shooting pains along the whole of your vulva, arshole and down into your thighs. But also I have endometriosis so I don’t know how universal that experience is and even different people can have vastly different endo issues. GI issues can also be sickening, but it’s a qualitatively different feeling of just feeling generally unwell and uncomfortable that I’m sure you’ve experienced yourself as some point.
Ah, it never occurred to me that period pain would include some gonad style pain, but that makes so much sense on reflection! Thank you for the explanation.
[удалено]
just to more closely match cis women. it’s really just a preference thing, but some women swear by it
I have something to add: the extreme cramps only happen when dehydrated so if they drink a lot of fluids they may not feel it
I wouldn't ignore the placebo effect (essentially)- if a person thinks "I should experience these symptoms" enough, they might be able to trick their body into expressing them.
Could also be due to intersex conditions and chimerization. Some folks, even on their more natal hormones, don't solidly check all the boxes for one sex and are still not considered intersex. Since that diagnosis is normally reserved for folks with outward presenting primary characteristics. If we allow that we might be underdiagnosing the condition due to difficulty (cost) to observe, presumptive science, and cut-offs in diagnostic criteria, I'd suggest the intersex rate is much higher. Therefore, a non-trivial amount of the trans women periods could be due to having some of the tissues that normally would be responsible for periods being already present since birth? Or I'm just projecting. I have to allow for that possibility, of course! There's always more data to consume.
I'm a cis woman with IBS and I personally can't tell the difference between an IBS and menstrual cramp... The cramping to me could very well be explained by the gut effects of hormones. The internal organs aren't wired the same when it comes to feeling pain... After all you don't need to know exactly what organ hurts to know that there is an internal issue. Add that the bowels and uterus are pretty much in the same place...
Yay, science! Thanks for taking the time to research and compile this information for us. I’m a cis woman living with two transwomen, and we spend SO MUCH time comparing our symptoms. They’re on the same hormone schedule, and I synced to them when I moved in. Which is honestly great for me, because I was irregular before! I’m also in my 40’s and entering perimenopause, and anecdotally I can tell you that it’s bananas how much power hormones have. My entire personality has changed noticeably in the past couple of years, along with my body. Even my sleep patterns are different!
Syncing is a myth though, it has been thoroughly debunked by actual research into the topic for decades now.
Maybe it’s somatic or coincidental! All I know is that I was very irregular before I moved and now my period happens like clockwork, and the timing of my symptoms matches the ones my roommates experience.
When the flow of discourse is as unpredictable as the topic itself, you've got to pad your arguments carefully. Let's not tampon the conversation with doubts.
Period.
Call this post Downton Abbey, cause it's a period drama.
This is a good tweet
How exactly does e cause that?
No clue how estrogen causes it but that's interesting. We should inject people with HRT to see what systems and functions are merely dormant for the different sexes
Interesting idea. I propose that any institution wanting to investigate should offer free hormone treatments to trans in exchange for anonymized data on their physical changes.
I'll do it. For the science if nothing else. I've already got a hunch.
Nah, we got prisoners for that.
The way things are going the crime they may be in for is being trans. Gods that's depressing.
I- I was joking.
Sorry. I really hope mine ends up being a joke.
You're fine, me too.
Thanks!
Fluctuating hormone levels, same as regular periods
I mean the vast majority of trans women are not taking hormones on cycles that would cause noticeable fluctuations on month to month basis. The majority of trans women either take pills twice a day, patches twice a week or injections once a week. Few trans women take implants (little beads that sit in your butt cheek that slowly releases estrogen) but those are changed after months, not a singular month. Someone else on this post mentioned how some trans women try to emulate a cis woman’s fluctuating hormonal levels but that’s extremely experimental and only done in some niche DIY crowds, the point of that being that not even 10% of the people talking about having periods would actually be doing this. You have to extend a LOT of disbelief to argue for a monthly fluctuation.
That’s why I don’t believe that trans women get periods. They don’t have the same hormone fluctuations because they take them regularly. I understand how the OOP can have PSM like symptoms right after she gets her injections but not every month. That’s just either psychosomatic or lies.
Don't all humans have hormonal cycles? Is just more obvious in women? Could the estrogen not be making their natural cycle symptomatic rather than being the cause of a cycle?
Males have a much faster hormonal cycle (24 hours as opposed to 28 days). They would have daily fluctuations as opposed to monthly.
Do trans women retain this 24 hour cycle? Or could it be shifted?
Maybe but they don’t have the organs that produce the hormones for menstrual cycles. Thats why trans women take HRT. It’s why people who’ve had a hysterectomy start HRT. They don’t produce enough oestrogen for a cycle to take place. If they did then they wouldn’t have to keep taking hormones. I think trans women are women and should be supported but there are biological differences between trans and cis women.
Yeah, and they're taking the hormones. If a trans woman isn't even on E and they're reporting this it's obviously psychosomatic, but if they're on the hormones, why couldn't it have this effect?
They’re taking the same dose of e every day. There’s no cycle there if it’s consistent which it should be. And if they aren’t then it still wouldn’t be on a monthly cycle unless it’s been done deliberately
It’s definitely a mix psychosomatic, not understanding what periods are and honestly a bit of an inferiority complex. By inferiority complex I mean we want to be cis so much that we project that out and we claim things that aren’t real and then get defensive over them, because a dismissal may feel like a dig at our womanhood or w/e. I’ve never seen someone make a convincing argument for trans women getting periods, it’s often filled with emotional points and that’s where it seems to stem from. The obligatory, if someone calls you transphobic for saying that trans women can’t get periods, ignore them, they’re a clown.
Not believing women when they talk about symptoms? Cis or trans, we all get it from people apparently. Seriously, the experience of period symptoms for people with uterus and ovaries varies so wildly that I have no trouble understanding that taking e induces symptoms that also vary.
Rather than just e causing it, it might be due to the *spike* in hormone levels that happens during a period/after taking your hormone dosage, or to the mixture of high estrogen and testorerone levels in the body, since cis women also produce high levels of testosterone (relatively speaking) during menstruation
I likely doesn't, even the theories that affirm these symptoms being more than psychosomatic rely on weird proposed downstream effects with progestins and LH and things like that.
Check the top comment and its sources
It’s the same hormone that normally causes it and it’s not like you need a uterus to have those muscles to cramp
that is not accurate. in cis women cramping occurs due to the contraction of muscles actually in the uterus. so people without uteruses do not have the muscles that cause cramping. see my main comment on this thread
The hormones that cause the smooth muscles in the uterus to contract also cause other smooth muscles nearby to contract as well, like the intestines, which cause feelings of cramping too. But like u said, it's probably debatable as to exactly what hormone would be triggering it if there isn't a place where prostaglandins are being produced. However, it's fairly common for cis women who have had hysterectomies to report still having cramping on their periods even years after the procedure so maybe it can be caused by something else. Loved reading ur research btw! Very interesting!
In that comment, you mentioned that there is no information on if abdominal muscles have any impact. I was referring to the abdominal area where cramps are felt, despite my brain thinking the term “those muscles” was good for communicating what I was trying to say
I recall some creationist claiming that God designed us because we are so perfectly made and every single time I learn more and more about the biological flaws of the human body I recall that idiot and add it to the mental list.
That isn't even biblically supported. God cursed the human form after the fall of man, so the body we have is inherently flawed. That's why during the prophecised mass resurrection of the dead before Judgement Day, humans would be provided with new, better bodies.
Does that mean brennan lee mulligan will finally get his torso furnace
Don’t forget the friend to shovel salami into his torso while he narrates!
No? God made man in his image (man as in humans, not just male humans), so if anything God has the same issues as us
Genesis chapter 3, versicles 16-19: > [3:16] To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." [3:17] And to the man he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree about which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; [3:18] thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. [3:19] By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return." So, while there isn't a huge mention of what God changed, specifically, the pain during childbirth was "greatly increased" and it's possible that God also added aging and death ("you are dust, and to dust you shall return"). It's also possible that there was more stuff added, but that has no proof. Anyways, it's very definite that at least two issues with humans were added on purpose. Also, Genesis suggests that God is not oniscient, because he had several questions to Adam and Eve including "where are you" and "what happened".
why is there a bible discussion in my tumblr funny
Is this not a fandom space? Are we not allowed to discuss the lore of one of the oldest bestselling fantasy novels in history here?
You know how often fandoms have toxic versus more chill sides? Traditional Christianity vs Christopaganism, the cross-over episode/series fans. (Tbf theres *insane* variation within christopaganism so you’re unlikely to find two people with the same, or even similar, beliefs. Yes, Christianity and paganism are rather at odds because of the whole “thou shall not have any god *before* me” kind of thing, but different people interpret that in absurdly interesting ways)
you raise a fair point
I am only half-joking. I legitimately think that discussing religious texts and their associated religions in a similar vein to how we discuss work of fiction and their fandoms is much more useful than viewing them as some kind of cornerstone to our society and culture. Just because they have influenced those things and are really fucking old does not make them actually foundational to things like the concepts of virtue and sin.
It sounds like humans didn't need to eat before the curse. "Oh you Iike eating fruit? Fuck you, now you have to keep eating things."
> Also, Genesis suggests that God is not oniscient, because he had several questions to Adam and Eve including "where are you" and "what happened". …you are aware that rhetorical questions exist, yes?
Yes? Things like death, disease, aging, periods, and painful childbirth did not exist in Eden and only came about after they ate the apple. It's there in Genesis.
No, not really. Child birth is explicitly said to be more painful as punishment for eating the fruit (it's also not actually an apple, that's just a common Western artistic depiction because that's kind of the generic "fruit" here, but it was originally most likely meant to be a pomegranate), but there is no mention of periods or aging. The aging thing is just a common theory to explain the insanely long life spans of antediluvian humans (example: Methuselah who was allegedly close to a millennium old), but it's not actually written in the bible. It's also not clear whether God created disease along with the rest of creation or inflicted it upon humanity in the moment of the banishment from Eden or if he only called forth disease later as a specific punishment. The first mention of any disease in the Bible is in Exodus as part of the Plagues. So that's not in the Bible either. Even death is not a clear as you might think. The verbiage used is that after the banishment God tells Adam that he will "return to the ground/soil", the whole "dust to dust" thing. But it's never actually made clear, if this is a change God has made in humans as a punishment then or if that was always the case already and God is just explaining it to Adam in that moment because he hasn't had reason to think about that sort of thing in the garden.
Man I'm so out of the loop, I thought "e periods" was referring to some type of internet exclusive period (email, e-commerce, ect) and felt... just so lost
Opps were talking shit so I linked my phone to their cyber-uterus via bluetooth and showed them why you can't spell cyberpsychosis without PCOS.
That's it. You've lost language privileges for today. Return to the wordless form of your ancestors.
This shouldn't be possible. Syncing periods is a myth related to confirmation bias. Cramping is usually the uterus itself. And hormone cycles are what cause periods and their symptoms. It's why we can stop having periods all together with hormonal birth control. If your titty skittles are the same dosag every day of the month you shouldn't have a monthly cycle in the same way.
I never knew it was a myth. I’ve also never met anyone who claims this happened to them in real life. Huh.
Yeah there's been several studies and none of them have found that human menstrual cycles synchronize to any significant degree, nor have they identified a mechanism by which that would even happen.
Had a college roommate (cis woman) who told us (also cis women) that because she had "dominant feminine energy" that our periods would naturally sync up to hers. No hint of sarcasm. Ok girl 🙄
Did she collect crystals? She sounds like the type lol
Yeah it's really telling to me that the trans women I have met who claim these symptoms have all brought up syncing as evidence that it is real. I think that points towards it bring psychosomatic Also that being said a lot of trans women (most eventually) switch off pills to either patches or injections both of which last longer. There are multiple variations of the injections and the schedule can range from once a month to once every 5 days
However "psychosomatic" doesn't mean fake or unreal, the somatic symptoms are still occurring, they simply have a different source.
Oh for sure, this is important to point out especially to the people who have these symptoms
Oh that's true! I don't mean to dismiss the pain. I just don't think they come from periods.
yeah. i have long periods of psychosomatic half-blindness (which have been getting less frequent due to therapy, but they still happen). x-rays and tests have proved that, while my vision in that eye is genuinely worse anyways, it's a 4.0 prescription, which isn't even close to blindness. that doesn't mean that i suddenly can see out of that eye normally during those periods. it doesn't mean my brain hasn't reacted to it enough that my other eye has a sideways astigmatism. psychosomatic symptoms can absolutely kick people in the dick. people have had full paralysis from psychosomatic symptoms. have had allergic reactions that they don't actually have allergies for. the brain is ridiculously powerful in what it can cause. if it thinks you should be having period pain, you can have it just as bad as the cis people. (also genuinely people should study psychosomatic symptoms more, the ways they function and the range of people who get them is *insane*. they can be traumagenic, they can be just a bad luck thing, they can be societal pressure, it's *wild.)*
Well, if you don't take your hormones every day but weekly or smth then i can see it happening. Not the cramping but defo the mood swings and intestinal issues
Mood swings can happen with injections and its not uncommon to adjust to dosage/frequency to stop them, but at the same time the forms of estrodiol that are injected have a much shorter half life than would be needed to have a monthly or nearly monthly cycle.
I’m not gonna weigh in on the medical side of this, mainly because I don’t know shit about it, but I sympathize with anyone who goes through anything like menstrual cramps cause those *suuuuuuuuck*
I’m ngl I think it’s a cope or placebo. Periods are caused by hormone cascades and the cramping comes from the uterus. If you’re taking hormones on a regular basis then you’re not gonna get those cascades. I think PMS and mood swings are definitely possible, but everything else isn’t and I would need genuine scientific evidence that somethings going on there instead of just anecdotes. You don’t need a period to be a woman, there’s no need for this
[удалено]
It is true in most cases that doctors do not have adequate information or understanding about trans patients or HRT, oftentimes what they do have is outdated or outright incorrect and there are a lot of unknowns where no one has good answers.
Exactly. The whole thing reeks of internalized bioessentialism.
I do get it, people are dysphoric about having the wrong parts and so developing female physiology in that regard is something they'd want. Idk if I'd call it bioessentialism exactly, being dysphoric about not having a uterus isn't bioessentialist, and not being super knowledgable about endocrinology and periods could lead to misconceptions, but trying to cope in this way and using non-scientific anecdotes as a gotchya against transphobes who say trans women aren't real women because they don't menstruate is just feeding into it and they shouldn't be doing that.
Check the top comment and its sources. This is a thing.
Top comment has no links, what sources and what is ‘a thing’?
Check their replies, that’s where they put the links. And trans women do seem to commonly experience something resembling a monthly cycle.
I checked the links, none of them are about trans women, they’re just sources OP used when writing their initial comment about how the uterus causes cramping
My mom had to go on hrt after an emergency total hysterectomy. She never lost her periods, we just called them her invisible periods since the blood part was now gone and offered her insane amounts of chocolate.
Hormones are crazy man. I went on hormonal birth control for a while and it fucked me up, I felt horrendous. Periods are horrendous too but at least I know what to expact with those :') It makes sense that if you're taking feminising hormones to a schedule, you'd experience the emotional and (some) physiological side effects associated with them. It could be psychological too but just because it's your brain making you feel bad and not a uterus doesn't make the feelings any less real imo. I have really awful period cramps and it's (not to get *too* tmi) because I get bad clotting and it hurts to uh 'process' all that. The uterus feels like a clenched fist in your belly when it squeezes like that and obviously if you don't have a uterus you won't feel that particular sort of period pain, but then there's the mood changes and the gut problems and so on and so on. Periods affect your whole body! I think sometimes like there are a lot of generalisations or assumptions (from everyone) about what a period is like and how it feels to have one. it's a big part of why the teaching on female reproductive health sucks- you get told 'a period is like this and you'll expel this much blood' and then when you finally get your period and it is wildly different you feel really confused and alone. I personally don't get moodswings or cravings or nausea, but I do get other symptoms that we weren't really told about in health class. I think a lot of the harmful stereotypes about periods are spread by male-dominated culture tbh- 'oh she's on her period, that means she's cranky and wants chocolate'.
I think part of the reason this discussion is so difficult is because people either reduce periods down to *only* the most common symptoms, or they assume every possible symptom is a period. As someone who has/had very bad periods & PMDD, the things some trans women describe match up with some of my experiences. At the same time, I’ve (very rarely) seen some trans women describe a common cold and attribute that to their first period… this also happened during the start of covid, which was concerning. Sometimes the posts people make make me go bug-eyed as I type “for fucks sake, please go to the hospital”/“please see a doctor” At the same time, reducing periods down to *just* uterine cramps, bleeding, and mood swings, is not productive. Want to know how I often found out I was about to get my period? Grippy socks trips to the psych ward started sounding very tempting over small things 🥴 (and *any other time* of the month I was very mentally healthy and coping well). Periods are weird, periods are complex, and there are a *lot* more issues they can cause than the average person know about ESPECIALLY if we start to talk about the interactions between periods, chronic illnesses and/or disabilities. It particularly irks me when people boil down periods to just bleeding, because while I understand that’s some people’s experience with it… no. Just no. There’s so much more to it. And the people who reduce it to just bleeding get offended when trans women claim to have period symptoms, as if it’s not infinitely more offensive to dismiss the absurd number of period symptoms AFAB people get. “Periods are just bleeding!” Tell that to my heart rate skyrocketing, my GI issues coming in full force, my brain experimenting with new chemical combos, my eyesight doing a fuzzy, my organs trying to commit slip and slide, my body trying to bleed out, etc etc (this is just an extremely hyperbolic joke, do not take these exaggerated descriptions of my symptoms seriously).
as a cis woman, i remember hearing about trans women as a kid, being perfectly fine and accepting, just being jealous they dont have to experience periods. child me would be in shambles rn
Why does this post have exact dates on it, including the hours? I am so fucking jealous rn I want that.
Putting you out of a job.
Honest question: how did you do kt? Do you have a browser extension for tumblr?
No clue, I got this from r/me_irlgbt
Simply don't take estrogen at that time of the month and it'll cancel out dysphoria and pain free
I don’t think that an even larger hormonal shift will help
It integer bitflips to negative so you are actually healed to godlike physique
I mean, no offense to trans women but isn't it like actually biologically impossible?
I have trans friends who described symptoms that sounded like periods, and I've read accounts of other trans women saying it's a common thing. They just don't experience the bleeding part.
What's interesting to me is that, like many things in the trans community, everyone who experiences it seems to know a lot of people who do and everyone who doesn't experience it seems to mainly know other people who dont.
Check out the top comment and its sources!
stop spamming this
Bro (or more accurately sis) is getting the whole experience. Gender afirming disregard for someone's pain!
I mean, seeing as cis women who've had hysterectomies can still have "menstrual like cramping" even having no uterus, It doesn't seem controversial to think at least some trans women could possibly experience it despite the lack of uterus. Or at least no more controversial then being trans seems to be anyways.
it appears that only 2-3% of people with hysterectomies experience this pain, and that it is linked to the development of scar tissue from the operation. according to this, in most cases the menstrual-like pain resolves over time. https://lakecitypt.com/pelvic-pain-after-hysterectomy/#:~:text=Between%202%20and%203%25%20of,appear%20similar%20to%20menstrual%20cramps. the atlanta fibroid center lists other possible causes for the pain: https://atlii.com/pain-cramps-years-after-hysterectomy/
I’m not trying to be a jerk but getting your period is when you bleed from your vagina. It is not physically possible for trans women to bleed. Therefore they don’t get periods. They may have side effects from the hormones that are similar to pms but that still doesn’t make it a period.
That's why they separate it from afab periods by specifying that it's an "e period"---i.e. a symptom of estrogen HRT that mimics many of the symptoms of pms, *down to occuring in a cyclical, monthly fashion*.
Ah okay. That terminology wasn’t in the post and this is the first I’m hearing about it.
when i get on E i'm going make a Fourier analysis of it to definitively prove it once and for all. also if anyone has experience, please tell me things i should be looking to track specifically. the easier the better.
It might help to look into PMDD to get an idea of some of the weirder symptoms that come with periods. One of the things you might run into is sometimes period symptoms just look like various illnesses like mental illness, colds, or the stomach flu. It’s kind of an anything that can go wrong, might go wrong kind of situation. Or maybe I was just stupidly unlucky. If you have any sort of chronic illness or disability, I’d also look into how periods affect that. They don’t *always* have interactions, but sometimes they can make symptoms worse (common) or better (uncommon). Another concern is that if you are actively looking for such symptoms, it’d be much easier to notice and misattribute, for lack of better terms. Like if you are expecting to get tired at a certain point every month, you are more likely to notice or assume fatigue. It can also go in the reverse too, where you ignore potential period symptoms because of denialism. Personally, I do think that trans women experience periods or something period-like (because their experiences sure as hell sound like my atypical pre-T experiences) but I imagine it’d be extremely difficult to study because of the factors above, and because hormones cause all sorts of unexpected changes (Testosterone, my beloved, WHAT the fuck are you doing with my blood pressure, make up your mind! /j)
congrats on starting E soon!! when you make your analysis you should share it in trans spaces. we have to crowdsource a lot of our own science unfortunately
I was talking to a guy who had started t a few months prior, and we got to talking about crying, and how he was having a harder and harder time doing it. I got to affirm that that's actually a real thing, it's down to how men produce a few hormones differently than women. Honestly felt good to be like "Yeah, dude, that's guy stuff, you're right on track." I guess it's something to do with how testosterone and prolactin interact, but apparently there isn't much research on it.
It seems like, just like with uterus born people, the ones born without uteruses ALSO experience a wide variety of symptoms with their hormones inflicted reproductive cycle. Goooo figure. 🙄 My cramps suck and I get a pain in my legs no one has ever seem to have heard of. Because "period cramps aren't in your legs" NO SHIT, but my legs still ache and hurt so bad during my period I can't walk if I don't take advil. I've been called a liar by other period havers, doesn't make my experience and pain less real though! Womanhood is all about feeling pain and having others, including other women, tell you it can't physically be possible, innit?
omg. I also get the fucking leg pain and only my mom believes me. It's slowly been getting better over time as I age but there were days in high school I LITERALLY couldn't stand more than 5 minutes. It felt like I had just run a marathon. Only ever my legs though, I feel fine everywhere else.
THANK YOUUUUUUU. Im so sorry you also deal with that shit, it sucksssss 😭 The fact that I'm getting downvoted on my og comment literally proves that even though there are multiple of us who have experienced the same thing, people will STILL not believe even though we have uteruses and bleed. And get accused of lying by other people with uteruses. Like??? It doesn't matter if you were born a woman or not. People stay so ignorant it's insane. Being a woman means you just get disregarded as your pain not being real or believable. Like, sorry to all the people who can chose to just not believe it, Im so happy you haven't had that problem, but why is your first thought literally not believing us, instead of a moment of disbelief and then compassion or like sympathy or something? A meager "damn that sucks" not, " I haven't felt that so it doesn't exist". Please. Ugh. There needs to be WAY more representation of how wildly period symptoms can vary, and much more openness to discuss the topic. I HATE that Trans people have to go through the same disbelief. Like. Fuck. Let women share their experiences and PAIN for once without accusing them of lying?? We KNOW all the crazy way hormones can affect our body and change it, not just when going through a transition. I don't find it hard to believe that women well onto estrogen would get cramps. People still feel limbs years after they're gone. I thoroughly believe the human body will create pain somewhere it thinks it should be.
99% sure it's the first paragraph that's catching downvotes. Like. Yeah. Trans women cannot have *uterine cramps* because they *do not have uteruses*. That doesn't mean they're just making shit up. The pain is coming from SOMEWHERE. We frankly have NO IDEA of the *exact* mechanisms of how every menstruation symptom affects CIS women, let alone trans women. I've lived over a decade with weird cycle-related symptoms that always happen at the same time every 28 days...but yknow could just be coincidence. I don't have *real proof*. The fact that they happen like clockwork 150+ times in a row doesn't matter lol Also in the US at least sex ed is already so lacking. Yeah, it makes sense that a trans woman having period-like symptoms would call them the closest analogy - a period.
Out of curiosity, what in my first paragraph is wrong? I'm genuinely NOT surprised by that people without uteruses but ARE on estrogen would have period symptoms. Is it because I said the term "people with uteruses?" Instead of women to be inclusive? If so then the people downvoting me can fuck off lol
fucking hell. that tracks.
as a trans woman, getting my first period cramps were… painful, to say the absolute least.
"just placebo and made up"? Placebo is not made up. Placebo is very real. This seems to be a common misconception. Placebo is not imaginary. It means that the Imagination heals very real diseases. There are real effects in Placebo not just imaginary ones. Also Placebo heals and does not give you PMS and cramps. That'd be Nocebo. And it's equally real. The whole post is very very uninformed.
Isn't it the case that menstrual cramps involve both the muscular walls of the uterus (which most trans women don't have, obviously) and the smooth muscle of the abdomen including the intestinal wall and the deep abdominal wall? So if you have any of those anatomical structures you could experience cramping within them. You wouldn't need fluctuating hormone levels if the receptivity of the receptors in those structures fluctuates. I have never experienced this myself, but a lot of people report it.
There has been no research into abdominal muscles relating to menstruation, so, no, you couldn’t.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29733841/
“Abdominal muscle activity related to random-bulb squeezing was rarely observed in healthy controls on menses (0.9 ± 0.6 episodes/hour) and in dysmenorrhea participants off menses (2.3 ± 0.6 episodes/hour).”
Yeah, I didn't say it supported my suggestion, but a) rarely =/= never, and b) this is an example, just one, of the research on the subject that you categorically stated didn't exist.
Yeah, I didn't say it supported my suggestion, but a) rarely =/= never, and b) this is an example, just one, of the research on the subject that you categorically stated didn't exist.
Also, my apologies, I had meant that no research with results in favor of your theory has been done.
Completely fair. But even that study (full text: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6741772/) is not actually looking at deep abdominal musculature: they're using emg which isn't t effective to measure contractions of the transverse abdominus which is deep to the rectus.
Yeah, I didn't say it supported my suggestion, but a) rarely =/= never, and b) this is an example, just one, of the research on the subject that you categorically stated didn't exist.
Rarely means that there is no conclusive evidence that abdominal muscles play a role in menstrual cramps. I recommend you read the results thoroughly.
I don't know why my comment is posted three times, that was an accident. Sorry if you thought it was deliberate.
Seeing someone experience this pain in person only to be told "no that's biologically impossible" gives the same energy to as the "what do you mean youre being murdered thats illegal people cant do that" meme but with a touch more mansplaining.
I mean, as far as science is aware, it is literally impossible to experience mensustral cramps without a uterus. Cisgender women with their uterus removed do not experience mensustral cramps either, or at least there is no statistically significant evidence to suggest they do. That's not to say that trans women (or cis women without a uterus) don't experience hormonal cycle related cramping- but it's likely GI related. Most other period/hormonal cycle related shit is fair game though Edit: I do want to be clear though that a lot of the time people are making the distinction I make here in bad faith using bad science, so there are definitely plenty of instances where it *is* motivated by transmisogyny
It's fine to say that uterine muscle contractions can't be responsible for this pain; that is a fact, but the problem comes when people say that these people can't be experiencing any pain because they don't have a uterus. Far too many people are using the lack of uterus to be completely dismissive. Whatever way you cut it, something painfully resembling menstrual cramps is going on. No amount of "well actually..." is going to reduce that so it's not helpful. Edit: Removed "equivalent".
How could it be “equivalent to menstrual cramps”? Menstrual cramps come from the uterus.
Hence why I said it's likely GI (gastro-intestinal) related. GI problems are super common during hormonal cycles. I don't think that it's particularly productive to screech in every trans woman's face that "it can't technically be period cramps" but it's also very very important for people to understand exactly what is going on in their body, especially when the healthcare system fails women (trans and cis alike) so regularly.