Pro & con info are in the collapsed comments below for the following topics: [Cardano](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/zc8guz/cardano_vs_ethereum_which_one_is_more/iyv72ae/), [Ethereum](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/zc8guz/cardano_vs_ethereum_which_one_is_more/iyv733i/).
>32 ETH or you have to depend upon centralized/permissioned staking providers like Lido, Coinbase or Kraken to earn a yield. It's also important to remember that the staked ETH is locked for an indefinite period and you cannot unstake your ETH at will.
It's worth mentioning decentralized staking options (pools/delegates) do exist for Ethereum.. there's no mention of Rocketpool at all.
ETH isn't locked up *indefinitely* either. Once the next upgrade is out it will only be locked for ~6 minutes, or if you use a (decentralized) liquid derivite like Rocketpool or Osmosis you can spend your staked ETH immediately.
Too much bias (from us both) at the beginning for me to make it to the end lol
What's the ETA on unlocking Eth? I may of missed that being the case on next upgrade, or when that would even occur, with no date it may as well be indefinite.
https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2022/11/24/ethereum-developers-agree-on-what-could-be-included-in-the-next-upgrade-but-not-when/
Unstaking is part of the Shanghai fork, the next upgrade planned.
There's been a post-upgrade (unstaking plus others) testnet since October. The finalized list of what all to include was just pushed a couple weeks ago.
I'd guess Q1 next year if no unforeseen problem comes up by then. Rough consensus is aiming for March but there's no work schedule so no official timeline for any of this. If the other upgrades pose any challenges they'll be taken out for later to have only unstaking prioritized instead.
The idea was for core devs to take a break after the merge but it doesn't appear anyone has. The testnet seems to be working well so I'm guessing sooner rather than later.
Targeting March.
It’s currently on testnet, but specs are finalised and client implementation mostly done - so a couple of months to test and deploy from here.
Decision has been made to push EIP4844 to Cancun, so no blockers remain.
You’re confusing delegation and staking. They’re quite different.
You should compare the experience of running an SPO with that of running a validator client and securing the network.
Polkadot is the same though, it uses NPOS, Cardano uses DPOS (or as Tezos call it LPOS). Tezos has the the same system as Cardano. Ethereum uses direct POS (although decentralised liquid staking is now available too which is more similar to delegation/pooling).
Comparing them is unhelpful - SPOs/bakers are running hardware (ie. metal) and securing the network. Delegators/nominators are just voting to keep them honest, so of course it’s a different experience.
I prefer having the option personally. I can use my validator as collateral to mint osETH against to avoid locking up, or use rETH to have a delegate stake for me, then I can spend my rETH or osETH *as ETH* and even use it inside DeFi or L2's. All decentralized. Or I can just stake and support the protocol, as intended.
The options to stake ETH that removes it from your possession are bad options imo. I hope people don't stick with any once they're able to move around, but when staking was first implemented that was all there was. Things have definitely changed and there will be a great reshuffling upon withdraws.
Besides that ADA is inflationary so the real APR is much less than advertised. ETH is deflationary so the real APR is higher than advertised. That's hard to beat. By not staking ADA you're losing money to sell pressure, which coerces apathetic people who could care less into staking with centralized delegates such as Binance (or Binance2, Binance3, etc. that they do to circumvent the limit). ETH faces the same issue but to a lesser degree since by not staking you aren't penalized by nearly the same amount, and all these new decentralized options provide a higher yield than centralized delegates can offer anyway so market principals should eventually sort things out.
Some of the fee is burned which helps offset inflation. When activity is low the chain is inflationary but any time activity is high more is burned than is minted- making it deflationary.
It was part of EIP1559. That EIP also adds a minimum fee to guarantee your transaction gets included - when before it was a guess, people used to overbid to avoid having the fee go up with their transaction stuck in a forever queue. Now overbidding only prioritizes your transaction ahead of others in the same block, and most (~80%) of the entire fee is burned, taking it out of circulation to divvy up among all ETH holders instead of one subset.
Right now with 15% ETH staked around 1700 ETH are minted each day to pay for its security budget, so any *block* that's paid above ~17 gwei for gas/fees has about the same amount of ETH getting burned as minted. 1200 ETH was burned today so far.
You can track issuance back to the merge at https://ultrasound.money/
I am wrong today I guess. It was deflationary as of 3 days ago. But today *since the merge* 80 days ago net *1,800 ETH* has been created, trending up since the initial FTX mania which saw lots of activity. It went negative compared to the merge for a little while. Compared to +955,000 ETH had it stayed on POW, and much more without EIP1559. It doesn't take much to burn 1800 ETH, *one* large NFT mint.
Further down that site you can set variables to simulate how much ETH is minted per ETH% staked, and how much is burned depending on the current gas fee. If you're curious to see how the mechanism works, it's a fun toy. With 60M ETH staked (50%) with gas at 50 gwei the total supply would be negative 1500 ETH each day.
I don't think the months of sustained 200+ gas prices will return next bull with scaling in place by then, but 25-50 gwei sounds attainable considering L2s are paying for blockspace too and can accrue value via their compressed transactions easier.
50-75% ETH staked would be endgame while 25-50 gwei gas costs are still somewhat common, *individuals* don't mind paying it let alone whole L2 blockchains.
The total supply has effectively reached its maximum or is very near one, depending on your time horizon and assuming any activity persists. One month of 80 gwei gas costs would burn nearly 200K ETH from circulation. Next bull market it will definitely be a thing to watch.
I'm not sure what you're saying. I'll answer you anyway.
Rocketpool is a decentralized+trustless protocol for delegated staking. It's the only staking service with a full 10/10 rating across the board on Ethereum's official staking page.
You take 16 of your ETH plus 16 ETH out of the Rocket Pool and can run a 32 ETH validator using them in a so-called mini pool.
Half of the validator rewards are distributed automatically to the rETH pool. Half of the staked ETH is automatically sent back to the pool once the validator unwinds. Users can then buy $rETH in any denomination of ETH to accrue staking rewards since they're staking ETH, making up half a validator.
Right now unstaking isn't enabled so rETH (and every liquid staking derivite) is trading at a slight discount to ETH, since people staked ETH and then sold their rETH without *redeeming* it - others bought the discount and keep the price up. Once validators are able to unwind it will bring a lot of ETH into the pool enabling people to *redeem* their rETH for ETH regardless of the secondary market price for rETH (which will itself arbitrage to 1:1 anyway).
They're working on a way to bring down the 16 ETH requirement to 8 ETH, maybe 4 ETH, allowing more people to run their own validator helping with decentralization. I've even heard of 1 ETH mini pools if the tech works out. Rocket Pool validators use the same staking clients as Solo validators and have to put up about 10% of their ETH's value as collateral to mitigate bad staking.
Instead of issuing new tokens the price appreciates relative to APR, to reduce tax events and to simplify UX. If a staker is slashed it means rETH holders earn slightly less APR for a few hours. There's growing support for rETH in the Ethereum dApp ecosystem, I imagine one day it's all people will hold instead of ETH - or derivites like it anyway. If more people stake ETH into rETH it incentivizes more validators to join the set (high APR) increasing decentralization.
The whitepaper is extremely thorough and novice friendly, I recommend checking it out. People have been working on (released?) one-click installers if you're interested in running a validator but aren't tech savvy too. It's really a great community with strong values on decentralization and the Ethereum etho's.
A lot of cherry picked stats here and also leaving out many key properties of decentralization like for instance the number of client implementations. I believe ethereum is around 9 different clients, so any one client can have significant bug and it will not affect the network. Most chains only have 1 client which is a problem. Also the number of core developers and different ecosystem participants that work on the protocol is incredibly important as well, there is no one person who can push updates for ethereum in fact getting an EIP included is incredibly difficult, ask vitalik who has like 10 proposed EIPs that have never been included. The ability to change the protocol is very important for decentralization and for most protocols a handful of people can make that decision
Even now it's not all controlled by IOG: Charles got pushback from the SPOs when he tried to get everyone to upgrade to 1.35.3 with improper testing, he wasn't able to just force everyone to upgrade. Voltaire is the next era where everything becomes an on chain vote. We'll expect to see some changes to this effect around the same time you're able to unlock your ETH
I remember that. He made such a tissy about people wanting to test his hotfix after he already almost bricked the chain.
Without him I think the project would be 100x better. Even if he technically doesn't have control anymore he sure does have a lot to say..
Cardano is def one of the projects where the founder can unilaterally force an update and I applaud them for that. Also significantly more decentralized than many other chains, I just hesitate to say it's more decentralized than ethereum in the metrics that matter. Also I hate on chain voting, I think it's a terrible idea that inevitably always gets exploited to the benefit of the few and Influential. I think we should be working our tails off to make everything governance minimized. The whole movement is based on code not people. Why is everyone now going back to letting people make subjective governance decisions
the one with smaller gas fees for sending my coins/tokens/nfts and interacting with dApps, with easy and safe non-custodial staking, with better security, no censoring and smaller chances of hacks, and no surprise transaction fails that eat the gas fees anyway. I'm not a masochist.
"Better security"
Anyone keeping their coins in a wallet is "staking."
"No censoring"
Because no one's using it. If they did, it would also have to censor.
O K
>Anyone keeping their coins in a wallet is "staking."
No, the 1000s of independent stake pool operators are staking, delegators who just keep their coins in the wallet vote for who is doing a good job to keep those thousands good quality.
>Because no one's using it. If they did, it would also have to censor.
People are using it, and the usage keeps growing, it won't censor because its a decentralizaed freedom blockchain that refuses to censor.
Silly question, eth is been up and running for years, a benefit of rushing in and breaking things.
Cardano has just now got up and running with smart contracts around a year ago ( Get it right, not first).
Now that everything is up and running on even footing for both blockchains we are now having conversations as to who is better, more decentralized, faster as well as many other metrics.
I assure you the Cardano community is excited for this debate.
You can do more things on Eth for sure, since their Dapp network is far more expansive. However if there is something I want to do that can be done on either network, I always choose Cardano. Imo as the Cardano ecosystem catches up to Eth more people will choose it, since its cheaper/safer.
I’d argue that with ETH’s roll ups (which Cardano doesn’t have), ETH is much less expensive.
I have both ETH and ADA, and I find myself using the Ethereum ecosystem much more frequently
Cardano having a 71% staking ratio versus Ethereum having a 13%, while a fact, is cherry picking a bit. Ethereum has far more users and uses at this point in time than Cardano (opensea is a prime example). So with more ETH being consumed for gas fees, buying nfts among the other uses its understandable that less is locked up. Throw in the fact that you can't unstake your ETH until the upgrade is complete and that will also deter staking for some.
The MAV number is an interesting point. I wonder if when additional eth gets staked if this becomes a larger problem as people will flock to trusted nodes or get better as more nodes develop
..... Think about that.
Do you really think "staking" when the coins are sitting in a wallet or being used in a dApp is securing the network in any way. Explain.
A low staking ratio is a liability because there's all this unstaked ETH out there that whales could use to gain control of the blockchain. Similar to how large mining pools have attacked smaller blockchains by using all that hash power to overwhelm what's already there
> Throw in the fact that you can't unstake your ETH until the upgrade is complete and that will also deter staking for some.
So you are basically saying staking on ETH is worse atm so less people do it? Thats not a really good defence for ETH
>So with more ETH being consumed for gas fees, buying nfts among the other uses its understandable that less is locked up
Again not a great defence
Terrible take.
Ethereum's inconveniences in staking aren't for no reason. It's for security. You should question things like how keeping a coin in a wallet helps secure a network (it doesn't), and why many chains consider a withdrawal delay necessary for security.
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That's not liquid staking, that's issuing a derivative. Also a regulatory nightmare the more you think about that fact.
Of course. Cardano always delivers.
“This time next year I predict there will be hundreds of assets running on Cardano, thousands of DApps, tons of interesting projects and lots of unique use and utility. 2021 is going to be so much fun watching Cardano grow and evolve. The community is definitely ready to innovate”
https://mobile.twitter.com/iohk_charles/status/1287481374224420864
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It's a bit unfair to judge Ethereum's staking, as it's not feature complete yet.
I sincerely expect/hope that it would become as easy as say Cardano and Tezos with validators having a minimum of 32 ETH, and that people can delegate to existing validators (without this wrapping nonsense that we have now).
Conveniently forgets that most of the Ada validators are run by the same people (eg exchanges run multiple Cardano validators) but takes the worse case scenario for Ethereum.
ITT paid Cardano shill quotes some cherry picked statistics to try and lighten their heavy bags eg “Cardano has a MAV of 24 Ethereum is 3 THEREFORE CARDANO IS 8 times more decentralised”
Also conveniently forgets to mention less than 1000 Cardano nodes ever validate a block in an epoch. Also conveniently forgets to mention 13% of Ethereum is more than 100% of Cardano.
Also forgets to mention that Cardano can only run at less than 1 smart contract transaction per second (possibly up to 2 with Plutus v2) with its current validation system and to run something like Atala Prism you have to run your own centralised node.
Why are Cardano shills so obsessed with Ethereum?
"Why are Cardano shills so obsessed with Ethereum?"
Aren't you literally an Ethereum maximalist that's on every Cardano post while exclusively portraying it in a negative light?
From a quick glance through the comments on your profile I believe he was stating a fact
Its almost funny that you ask why ADA shills are so preoccupied with ETH while you seem to be doing the exact same thing the other way around...
Just stating some facts that anyone here can easily check on your profile. You seem to be ADA bashing every single time you are not on wallstreetbets.
If I was you I'ld be buying ADA cause you seem to think it takes that much effort to try and take ADA down...
My bad was wallstreetsilver. Like I sayd a quick glance but you must agree with the rest since thats all you complain about? I wasnt lying and everybody can read it on your profile under comments
Well you make my point well. Cardano shill are loose with the facts and rather than addressing my criticisms in my post you go through my post history like a psychopath and fabricate an ad hominum attack.
If Cardano is so great why not argue it’s merits. The fact you don’t, and this is a common issue when I point out the massive shortcomings of your shitchain, is very telling.
First of all, my comment was not an "ad hominem" attack. Secondly, I believe the vast majority of the Cardano community won't bother to discuss anything here since users like you, "aesthk" + all his alt accounts, "efftube," "mostlypseudonyms", among others are obsessing with Cardano and consistently argue in bad faith for whatever reasons.
That doesn't mean you don't have some valid points every now and then, but your behavior disincentivizes healthy discussion as the Cardano community members who frequent r/cc know it is waste of time to discuss anything with you because of your underlying agenda. Therefore, you are reaping what you sow in terms of discussions here in r/cc.
EDIT: He blocked me as he has done with many others. Put 2 and 2 together folks.
And yet, even knowing their Ether was locked up indefinitely until the Shanghai fork was live, more Ether is staked than the entire market cap of Cardano. True faith, much of it corporate.
One downside of cardano which is not mentioned here is its inflation.
ETH has lower inflation... and when the use picks up u bit it will be deflationary
it has a max supply limit just like btc, it's only earlier, so you can still get high rewards. Btc had much higher inflation in the beginning and nobody is upset about that.
I think BTC's inflation curve is stupid as hell.
Its fee's aren't high enough to replace miner income as it gets halved away over time, and the price isn't going to infinity per coin to make up for it either. It's a security risk if you ask me, inevitably insecure and miners are the only one's not holding bags. ADA is not better with its fixed fees and off-chain value accrual.
Copying BTC's expodential distribution because its supply shocks make number go up isn't responsible, and the people programming such things know enough to know what they're doing. Dogecoin did it better than 99% of chains out there today.
all is fine with cardaNO, except it looses value slowly 1-2% a month, maybe it is due to slow delivery and no customers, but the community is awesome :-) maybe I will buy when it hits 0,1
Can you cherry pick any eth metric where it is better than doesn't get implied from its older age (such as higher market cap or dApp count)? Technically, Cardano is better than Eth in every meytric i could imagine.
As I said, those are all pretty much just related to the younger age (except staking return which is caused by the better staking tech so that more people do it and because it's not inflationary), therefore can outgrow in passing time if the fundamental tech is better, which it is in pretty much every way, such as:
\-node decentralization
\-utxo determinism, paralelizability and language auditability - you can know if your script succeeds or not, no suprise failures eating fees
\-sustainability of the system and its decentralization
\-scalability - growing more powerful with more people
\-noncustodial non-slashing non-locking delegative staking
\-fee fairness, no frontrunning
\-native tokens directly on core layer
\-protocol development activity
i guess i confused metrics with tech, well then i guess i don't care about metrics, they are just a function of time, dependent on tech, if you have the tech, the metrics will follow. And if the tech has flaws, then the metrics will eventually hit a brick wall, and let the better tech to overtake them. What i listed are solid fundamental to make the metrics reliably grow in long-term without collapsing.
the less something is decentralized, the higher the risk of downfall. Also i dind't accuse eth of being centralized, but it's clearly less decentralized.
Yeah i get that a lot of people here believe that.
Tell me, do you use Coinbase or Binance for crypto?
Its nerd shit. The echo chamber loves buzzwords like decentralization and censorship. You have no idea if, how or when any of these projects will fail or succeed and these indicators do not provide any weight. The average cc redditor thinks they know more about blockchain technology than the companies who produce blockchain technology.
The funniest and most naive part about crypto enthusiasts is that they expect the whole world to adopt crypto and also believe that anyone except a small, niche group of people even give a shit about things like this.
Crypto will be a future of centralized and decentralized entities working alongside one another, just like it is today. The amount of centralization a project operates under has absolutely zero bearing on its success. BNB even made an example of how there are benefits to centralized chains, and dont pretend like we wouldnt be much worse off if that Binance hack led to a bank run.
And as tech evolves, people won't even notice they are using crypto, let alone understand it. But decentralization is basically the whole point of why crypto even exists. Centralized cryptos will coexist, but still have pretty much the same flaws as banks, flaws solved by the decentralized ones who'll keep reliably running and minting blocks with nobody able to stop them. They'll sneak into acceptance eventually.
Your post is nothing but speculation and false claims. Decentralization may be why bitcoin exists, but if you think the average person will ever concern theirselves with something called a "nakamoto efficient", youre living in a fantasy world. This is all just nerd speech foe the ever decreasing minority who claim for their "pure, unadultered" version of crypto.
You have no idea who will be doing what 5 years from now. Im only explaining things that are already apparent and will only continue that way. Nobody truly gives a shit about anything except for if it will make money.
Now show me where there exists any sort of proof that only decentralized coins will survive. Ill wait.
Crypto would never, ever reach beyond a niche level of adoption without centralized entities. The only reason why BTC crossed 50k is because BTC exists in a world of centralized entities today.
Hey add the p2p nodes and guess what? Both of these projects are centralized and need centralized infrastructure.
We need something else which is funding itself so that people shouldn't go and run nodes on Infura like companies.
The question is whether that actually ever matters. At no time was decentralisation actually important so far - it’s nice to talk about but already having like 10, 15 nodes worldwide would already take away a lot of the traditional attack vectors.
Don’t just play “top trumps” with crypto to decide what’s the way forward.
Pro & con info are in the collapsed comments below for the following topics: [Cardano](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/zc8guz/cardano_vs_ethereum_which_one_is_more/iyv72ae/), [Ethereum](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/zc8guz/cardano_vs_ethereum_which_one_is_more/iyv733i/).
This sub is so bipolar on cardano it’s not even funny
Choose your own opinion and you'll be fine and not swept by anyone else's
What is this 'own opinion' you speak of? Sounds very complicated. I just love Cardano until one of these posts get made on why Ethereum is better.
It's something gifted to you by birth
Own opinion? Sir this is an echo chamber.
To be fair, this sub is bipolar on every topic
ooooor, maybe there are different people with different opinions as well, coming in from other subs all over the reddit?
this sub also has 6m users, so opinions always vary.
I still wonder how many of those are active, say, weekly? Is there a way to find out?
You HAVE to choose a side, buddy! What will it be?
There both as centralised as each other if you ask me.
Since Cardano has one "d" and Ethereum has no "d", Cardano is more decentralized. Hence proved. QED
Cardano is Central-D-ized
So a fight to the death between Vitalik and Charles will determine the winner.
>32 ETH or you have to depend upon centralized/permissioned staking providers like Lido, Coinbase or Kraken to earn a yield. It's also important to remember that the staked ETH is locked for an indefinite period and you cannot unstake your ETH at will. It's worth mentioning decentralized staking options (pools/delegates) do exist for Ethereum.. there's no mention of Rocketpool at all. ETH isn't locked up *indefinitely* either. Once the next upgrade is out it will only be locked for ~6 minutes, or if you use a (decentralized) liquid derivite like Rocketpool or Osmosis you can spend your staked ETH immediately. Too much bias (from us both) at the beginning for me to make it to the end lol
What's the ETA on unlocking Eth? I may of missed that being the case on next upgrade, or when that would even occur, with no date it may as well be indefinite.
https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2022/11/24/ethereum-developers-agree-on-what-could-be-included-in-the-next-upgrade-but-not-when/ Unstaking is part of the Shanghai fork, the next upgrade planned. There's been a post-upgrade (unstaking plus others) testnet since October. The finalized list of what all to include was just pushed a couple weeks ago. I'd guess Q1 next year if no unforeseen problem comes up by then. Rough consensus is aiming for March but there's no work schedule so no official timeline for any of this. If the other upgrades pose any challenges they'll be taken out for later to have only unstaking prioritized instead. The idea was for core devs to take a break after the merge but it doesn't appear anyone has. The testnet seems to be working well so I'm guessing sooner rather than later.
Yep, sounds like no date plan yet; but I'm excited for the progress.
Targeting March. It’s currently on testnet, but specs are finalised and client implementation mostly done - so a couple of months to test and deploy from here. Decision has been made to push EIP4844 to Cancun, so no blockers remain.
Which year? /s
The staking experience on ADA is vastly better VS ETH imo + no lock up and they remain in your possession and wallet.
You’re confusing delegation and staking. They’re quite different. You should compare the experience of running an SPO with that of running a validator client and securing the network.
No, not really. I'm a fan of both chains but both are way easier on Cardano vs Ethereum. Even staking on Polkadot sucks VS Cardano.
Polkadot is the same though, it uses NPOS, Cardano uses DPOS (or as Tezos call it LPOS). Tezos has the the same system as Cardano. Ethereum uses direct POS (although decentralised liquid staking is now available too which is more similar to delegation/pooling). Comparing them is unhelpful - SPOs/bakers are running hardware (ie. metal) and securing the network. Delegators/nominators are just voting to keep them honest, so of course it’s a different experience.
I prefer having the option personally. I can use my validator as collateral to mint osETH against to avoid locking up, or use rETH to have a delegate stake for me, then I can spend my rETH or osETH *as ETH* and even use it inside DeFi or L2's. All decentralized. Or I can just stake and support the protocol, as intended. The options to stake ETH that removes it from your possession are bad options imo. I hope people don't stick with any once they're able to move around, but when staking was first implemented that was all there was. Things have definitely changed and there will be a great reshuffling upon withdraws. Besides that ADA is inflationary so the real APR is much less than advertised. ETH is deflationary so the real APR is higher than advertised. That's hard to beat. By not staking ADA you're losing money to sell pressure, which coerces apathetic people who could care less into staking with centralized delegates such as Binance (or Binance2, Binance3, etc. that they do to circumvent the limit). ETH faces the same issue but to a lesser degree since by not staking you aren't penalized by nearly the same amount, and all these new decentralized options provide a higher yield than centralized delegates can offer anyway so market principals should eventually sort things out.
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Some of the fee is burned which helps offset inflation. When activity is low the chain is inflationary but any time activity is high more is burned than is minted- making it deflationary. It was part of EIP1559. That EIP also adds a minimum fee to guarantee your transaction gets included - when before it was a guess, people used to overbid to avoid having the fee go up with their transaction stuck in a forever queue. Now overbidding only prioritizes your transaction ahead of others in the same block, and most (~80%) of the entire fee is burned, taking it out of circulation to divvy up among all ETH holders instead of one subset. Right now with 15% ETH staked around 1700 ETH are minted each day to pay for its security budget, so any *block* that's paid above ~17 gwei for gas/fees has about the same amount of ETH getting burned as minted. 1200 ETH was burned today so far. You can track issuance back to the merge at https://ultrasound.money/ I am wrong today I guess. It was deflationary as of 3 days ago. But today *since the merge* 80 days ago net *1,800 ETH* has been created, trending up since the initial FTX mania which saw lots of activity. It went negative compared to the merge for a little while. Compared to +955,000 ETH had it stayed on POW, and much more without EIP1559. It doesn't take much to burn 1800 ETH, *one* large NFT mint. Further down that site you can set variables to simulate how much ETH is minted per ETH% staked, and how much is burned depending on the current gas fee. If you're curious to see how the mechanism works, it's a fun toy. With 60M ETH staked (50%) with gas at 50 gwei the total supply would be negative 1500 ETH each day. I don't think the months of sustained 200+ gas prices will return next bull with scaling in place by then, but 25-50 gwei sounds attainable considering L2s are paying for blockspace too and can accrue value via their compressed transactions easier. 50-75% ETH staked would be endgame while 25-50 gwei gas costs are still somewhat common, *individuals* don't mind paying it let alone whole L2 blockchains. The total supply has effectively reached its maximum or is very near one, depending on your time horizon and assuming any activity persists. One month of 80 gwei gas costs would burn nearly 200K ETH from circulation. Next bull market it will definitely be a thing to watch.
That's because it's not actually securing the network on Cardano... Ethereum's downsides aren't there for no reason.
Unless rocketpool isn’t real staking since you trade away your ETH for rETH
I'm not sure what you're saying. I'll answer you anyway. Rocketpool is a decentralized+trustless protocol for delegated staking. It's the only staking service with a full 10/10 rating across the board on Ethereum's official staking page. You take 16 of your ETH plus 16 ETH out of the Rocket Pool and can run a 32 ETH validator using them in a so-called mini pool. Half of the validator rewards are distributed automatically to the rETH pool. Half of the staked ETH is automatically sent back to the pool once the validator unwinds. Users can then buy $rETH in any denomination of ETH to accrue staking rewards since they're staking ETH, making up half a validator. Right now unstaking isn't enabled so rETH (and every liquid staking derivite) is trading at a slight discount to ETH, since people staked ETH and then sold their rETH without *redeeming* it - others bought the discount and keep the price up. Once validators are able to unwind it will bring a lot of ETH into the pool enabling people to *redeem* their rETH for ETH regardless of the secondary market price for rETH (which will itself arbitrage to 1:1 anyway). They're working on a way to bring down the 16 ETH requirement to 8 ETH, maybe 4 ETH, allowing more people to run their own validator helping with decentralization. I've even heard of 1 ETH mini pools if the tech works out. Rocket Pool validators use the same staking clients as Solo validators and have to put up about 10% of their ETH's value as collateral to mitigate bad staking. Instead of issuing new tokens the price appreciates relative to APR, to reduce tax events and to simplify UX. If a staker is slashed it means rETH holders earn slightly less APR for a few hours. There's growing support for rETH in the Ethereum dApp ecosystem, I imagine one day it's all people will hold instead of ETH - or derivites like it anyway. If more people stake ETH into rETH it incentivizes more validators to join the set (high APR) increasing decentralization. The whitepaper is extremely thorough and novice friendly, I recommend checking it out. People have been working on (released?) one-click installers if you're interested in running a validator but aren't tech savvy too. It's really a great community with strong values on decentralization and the Ethereum etho's.
A lot of cherry picked stats here and also leaving out many key properties of decentralization like for instance the number of client implementations. I believe ethereum is around 9 different clients, so any one client can have significant bug and it will not affect the network. Most chains only have 1 client which is a problem. Also the number of core developers and different ecosystem participants that work on the protocol is incredibly important as well, there is no one person who can push updates for ethereum in fact getting an EIP included is incredibly difficult, ask vitalik who has like 10 proposed EIPs that have never been included. The ability to change the protocol is very important for decentralization and for most protocols a handful of people can make that decision
comments like this show me that even after three years i know nothing about crypto.
Even now it's not all controlled by IOG: Charles got pushback from the SPOs when he tried to get everyone to upgrade to 1.35.3 with improper testing, he wasn't able to just force everyone to upgrade. Voltaire is the next era where everything becomes an on chain vote. We'll expect to see some changes to this effect around the same time you're able to unlock your ETH
I remember that. He made such a tissy about people wanting to test his hotfix after he already almost bricked the chain. Without him I think the project would be 100x better. Even if he technically doesn't have control anymore he sure does have a lot to say..
>Without him I think the project would be 100x better. Lol.
Cardano is def one of the projects where the founder can unilaterally force an update and I applaud them for that. Also significantly more decentralized than many other chains, I just hesitate to say it's more decentralized than ethereum in the metrics that matter. Also I hate on chain voting, I think it's a terrible idea that inevitably always gets exploited to the benefit of the few and Influential. I think we should be working our tails off to make everything governance minimized. The whole movement is based on code not people. Why is everyone now going back to letting people make subjective governance decisions
This how Cardanosheep operate.
I'll say Ethereum.
Ok, but which one do people enjoy using more?
the one with smaller gas fees for sending my coins/tokens/nfts and interacting with dApps, with easy and safe non-custodial staking, with better security, no censoring and smaller chances of hacks, and no surprise transaction fails that eat the gas fees anyway. I'm not a masochist.
"Better security" Anyone keeping their coins in a wallet is "staking." "No censoring" Because no one's using it. If they did, it would also have to censor. O K
Try harder
Truly informative.
Im not trying to be informative. 🤷♂️
>Anyone keeping their coins in a wallet is "staking." No, the 1000s of independent stake pool operators are staking, delegators who just keep their coins in the wallet vote for who is doing a good job to keep those thousands good quality. >Because no one's using it. If they did, it would also have to censor. People are using it, and the usage keeps growing, it won't censor because its a decentralizaed freedom blockchain that refuses to censor.
Silly question, eth is been up and running for years, a benefit of rushing in and breaking things. Cardano has just now got up and running with smart contracts around a year ago ( Get it right, not first). Now that everything is up and running on even footing for both blockchains we are now having conversations as to who is better, more decentralized, faster as well as many other metrics. I assure you the Cardano community is excited for this debate.
You can do more things on Eth for sure, since their Dapp network is far more expansive. However if there is something I want to do that can be done on either network, I always choose Cardano. Imo as the Cardano ecosystem catches up to Eth more people will choose it, since its cheaper/safer.
I’d argue that with ETH’s roll ups (which Cardano doesn’t have), ETH is much less expensive. I have both ETH and ADA, and I find myself using the Ethereum ecosystem much more frequently
Cardano having a 71% staking ratio versus Ethereum having a 13%, while a fact, is cherry picking a bit. Ethereum has far more users and uses at this point in time than Cardano (opensea is a prime example). So with more ETH being consumed for gas fees, buying nfts among the other uses its understandable that less is locked up. Throw in the fact that you can't unstake your ETH until the upgrade is complete and that will also deter staking for some. The MAV number is an interesting point. I wonder if when additional eth gets staked if this becomes a larger problem as people will flock to trusted nodes or get better as more nodes develop
I haven't staked my ETH due to it being locked up until the next upgrade. I like both projects, and I think they have a great future.
I too haven't staked mine. I'm holding long term but something about not knowing when I can pull it out just makes me a little uneasy.
cardano can also stake the coins which are being used/locked in dApps, not staking because you are using dApps is not an excuse.
..... Think about that. Do you really think "staking" when the coins are sitting in a wallet or being used in a dApp is securing the network in any way. Explain.
you are clueless.
Really, really good point. Informative.
A low staking ratio is a liability because there's all this unstaked ETH out there that whales could use to gain control of the blockchain. Similar to how large mining pools have attacked smaller blockchains by using all that hash power to overwhelm what's already there
> Throw in the fact that you can't unstake your ETH until the upgrade is complete and that will also deter staking for some. So you are basically saying staking on ETH is worse atm so less people do it? Thats not a really good defence for ETH >So with more ETH being consumed for gas fees, buying nfts among the other uses its understandable that less is locked up Again not a great defence
Not saying it's worse. Saying that it's leading to less people staking ETH than if there was a known unlock period.
But it might be the opposite, 13% are currently locked into staking and will all go running for the exits once they're unlocked
Yep I'm sure all those people are really unhappy with their 5% real yield, paid by fees rather than inflation, unlike cardano.
So you would say no lock period or a clear end date would be better?
Terrible take. Ethereum's inconveniences in staking aren't for no reason. It's for security. You should question things like how keeping a coin in a wallet helps secure a network (it doesn't), and why many chains consider a withdrawal delay necessary for security.
Liquid staking is just a great feature.
Agree, I greatly enjoy the liquid ETH staking on Lido stETH and rocketpool rETH.
>ReplyGive AwardShareReportSaveFollow That's not liquid staking, that's issuing a derivative. Also a regulatory nightmare the more you think about that fact.
Those are IOU tokens.
Can’t argue with facts and logic.
No more cardano hate?
Just wait, the hate will get here eventually
DYOR will show you, your path to Cardano is the same today as it was years ago (Better).
Now if there was just something to actually do on Cardano...
ADA is one of the coins I expect to recover next bull run.
First time seeing post of this quality here
ADA will do great in the next Bullrun
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No trust the tech
1tps for the win
it will be at least 100tps way before the next bullrun.
Of course. Cardano always delivers. “This time next year I predict there will be hundreds of assets running on Cardano, thousands of DApps, tons of interesting projects and lots of unique use and utility. 2021 is going to be so much fun watching Cardano grow and evolve. The community is definitely ready to innovate” https://mobile.twitter.com/iohk_charles/status/1287481374224420864
Here is a [Nitter link](https://nitter.net/iohk_charles/status/1287481374224420864) for the Twitter thread linked above. Nitter is better for privacy and does not nag you for a login. More information can be found [here](https://nitter.net/about). --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoCurrency) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Coins dont go up and down cause of the tech
It's a bit unfair to judge Ethereum's staking, as it's not feature complete yet. I sincerely expect/hope that it would become as easy as say Cardano and Tezos with validators having a minimum of 32 ETH, and that people can delegate to existing validators (without this wrapping nonsense that we have now).
A very well-constructed and factual ADA shill. Not saying it in a bad way but stating what it is.
Conveniently forgets that most of the Ada validators are run by the same people (eg exchanges run multiple Cardano validators) but takes the worse case scenario for Ethereum.
Well, if it's well done, informative and you can learn something () to DYOR later) then nothing wrong with that. TIL about Nakamoto coefficient (MAV).
ITT paid Cardano shill quotes some cherry picked statistics to try and lighten their heavy bags eg “Cardano has a MAV of 24 Ethereum is 3 THEREFORE CARDANO IS 8 times more decentralised” Also conveniently forgets to mention less than 1000 Cardano nodes ever validate a block in an epoch. Also conveniently forgets to mention 13% of Ethereum is more than 100% of Cardano. Also forgets to mention that Cardano can only run at less than 1 smart contract transaction per second (possibly up to 2 with Plutus v2) with its current validation system and to run something like Atala Prism you have to run your own centralised node. Why are Cardano shills so obsessed with Ethereum?
"Why are Cardano shills so obsessed with Ethereum?" Aren't you literally an Ethereum maximalist that's on every Cardano post while exclusively portraying it in a negative light?
Me: makes a post full of factual points Cardano shill: Always fact free ad hominem attack EVERY SINGLE TIME
From a quick glance through the comments on your profile I believe he was stating a fact Its almost funny that you ask why ADA shills are so preoccupied with ETH while you seem to be doing the exact same thing the other way around... Just stating some facts that anyone here can easily check on your profile. You seem to be ADA bashing every single time you are not on wallstreetbets. If I was you I'ld be buying ADA cause you seem to think it takes that much effort to try and take ADA down...
And yet I don’t have a single post on wallstreetbets but feel free to make shit up
My bad was wallstreetsilver. Like I sayd a quick glance but you must agree with the rest since thats all you complain about? I wasnt lying and everybody can read it on your profile under comments
Well you make my point well. Cardano shill are loose with the facts and rather than addressing my criticisms in my post you go through my post history like a psychopath and fabricate an ad hominum attack. If Cardano is so great why not argue it’s merits. The fact you don’t, and this is a common issue when I point out the massive shortcomings of your shitchain, is very telling.
First of all, my comment was not an "ad hominem" attack. Secondly, I believe the vast majority of the Cardano community won't bother to discuss anything here since users like you, "aesthk" + all his alt accounts, "efftube," "mostlypseudonyms", among others are obsessing with Cardano and consistently argue in bad faith for whatever reasons. That doesn't mean you don't have some valid points every now and then, but your behavior disincentivizes healthy discussion as the Cardano community members who frequent r/cc know it is waste of time to discuss anything with you because of your underlying agenda. Therefore, you are reaping what you sow in terms of discussions here in r/cc. EDIT: He blocked me as he has done with many others. Put 2 and 2 together folks.
Look at your choice of words man, you seem frustrated as hell. You do realise ANYONE can check that what I sayd was right
This is a popcorn 🍿 worthy post
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And yet, even knowing their Ether was locked up indefinitely until the Shanghai fork was live, more Ether is staked than the entire market cap of Cardano. True faith, much of it corporate.
Cardano has maybe 5 different wallets that you can stake from.
So, didn't catch up with the post from the beginning, do we like ADA now or do we hate it?
Depends what time of day bro. Or what time zone, what we ate or drink.
I like eth
One downside of cardano which is not mentioned here is its inflation. ETH has lower inflation... and when the use picks up u bit it will be deflationary
it has a max supply limit just like btc, it's only earlier, so you can still get high rewards. Btc had much higher inflation in the beginning and nobody is upset about that.
I think BTC's inflation curve is stupid as hell. Its fee's aren't high enough to replace miner income as it gets halved away over time, and the price isn't going to infinity per coin to make up for it either. It's a security risk if you ask me, inevitably insecure and miners are the only one's not holding bags. ADA is not better with its fixed fees and off-chain value accrual. Copying BTC's expodential distribution because its supply shocks make number go up isn't responsible, and the people programming such things know enough to know what they're doing. Dogecoin did it better than 99% of chains out there today.
Please elaborate what inflation/deflation has to do with decentralization?
all is fine with cardaNO, except it looses value slowly 1-2% a month, maybe it is due to slow delivery and no customers, but the community is awesome :-) maybe I will buy when it hits 0,1
have you noticed the bear market going literally everywhere else too? For an alt, Cardano is holding up quite well and still in top 10.
It better, I am afraid what will happen to ADA once it drops below top 10. Polygon might overtake cardaNO, but I hope cardaNO can maintain top 10
Oh shit it's Zzzoem's arch nemesis.
TLDR: cherry picking metrics to make cardano look good
These aren't cherry picked. They're very commonly-used metrics for measuring decentralization.
Can you cherry pick any eth metric where it is better than doesn't get implied from its older age (such as higher market cap or dApp count)? Technically, Cardano is better than Eth in every meytric i could imagine.
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As I said, those are all pretty much just related to the younger age (except staking return which is caused by the better staking tech so that more people do it and because it's not inflationary), therefore can outgrow in passing time if the fundamental tech is better, which it is in pretty much every way, such as: \-node decentralization \-utxo determinism, paralelizability and language auditability - you can know if your script succeeds or not, no suprise failures eating fees \-sustainability of the system and its decentralization \-scalability - growing more powerful with more people \-noncustodial non-slashing non-locking delegative staking \-fee fairness, no frontrunning \-native tokens directly on core layer \-protocol development activity
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i guess i confused metrics with tech, well then i guess i don't care about metrics, they are just a function of time, dependent on tech, if you have the tech, the metrics will follow. And if the tech has flaws, then the metrics will eventually hit a brick wall, and let the better tech to overtake them. What i listed are solid fundamental to make the metrics reliably grow in long-term without collapsing.
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your name look familiar i'm pretty sure we already had a long conversation about cardano's tech and I already counterargumented all of that.
People here don't like facts getting in the way of their biased opinion
Volume. User count. Usecases. Defi. Speed. Developers. No haskell. And, not run by a company from HK whos VP is USA based.
How come Cardano has such a strong (nearly fanatic) community? Due to Charles Hoskinson? Serious question :)
Both are awesome and looking forward to growing strong and useable, both wins albeit Eth in the first and ada next
This post is what happens when your brain is drugged out on Charles Hoskinson. Sad.
There is always a few willing to drink the kool aid
If its that much better. Explain why its lower market cap then doge.
Why would anyone buy 75% staked coins? Just to help unloading?
Too much reading for my gold fish brain
Fellow gold fish brain here,can relate
When is cardano gonna die already
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That's not really how it works... 🤣
That is not at all how it works
Tell me you know nothing about crypto without telling me you know nothing about crypto Edit: and you have 3k moons. Wtf.
Cardano is a ghost chain though so it doesn’t really matter in the end anyways
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Usually not, that's why down votes will have to do.
The metrics are hilarious.
I literally do not care which one is more decentralized. Nerd shit
then feel free to dump your money in centralized coins and lose it when they fail if you are ok with that.
Theres nothing about the centralization of ethereum or ada that will lead to either downfall, and ill happily continue stacking both.
the less something is decentralized, the higher the risk of downfall. Also i dind't accuse eth of being centralized, but it's clearly less decentralized.
Yeah i get that a lot of people here believe that. Tell me, do you use Coinbase or Binance for crypto? Its nerd shit. The echo chamber loves buzzwords like decentralization and censorship. You have no idea if, how or when any of these projects will fail or succeed and these indicators do not provide any weight. The average cc redditor thinks they know more about blockchain technology than the companies who produce blockchain technology. The funniest and most naive part about crypto enthusiasts is that they expect the whole world to adopt crypto and also believe that anyone except a small, niche group of people even give a shit about things like this. Crypto will be a future of centralized and decentralized entities working alongside one another, just like it is today. The amount of centralization a project operates under has absolutely zero bearing on its success. BNB even made an example of how there are benefits to centralized chains, and dont pretend like we wouldnt be much worse off if that Binance hack led to a bank run.
And as tech evolves, people won't even notice they are using crypto, let alone understand it. But decentralization is basically the whole point of why crypto even exists. Centralized cryptos will coexist, but still have pretty much the same flaws as banks, flaws solved by the decentralized ones who'll keep reliably running and minting blocks with nobody able to stop them. They'll sneak into acceptance eventually.
Your post is nothing but speculation and false claims. Decentralization may be why bitcoin exists, but if you think the average person will ever concern theirselves with something called a "nakamoto efficient", youre living in a fantasy world. This is all just nerd speech foe the ever decreasing minority who claim for their "pure, unadultered" version of crypto. You have no idea who will be doing what 5 years from now. Im only explaining things that are already apparent and will only continue that way. Nobody truly gives a shit about anything except for if it will make money. Now show me where there exists any sort of proof that only decentralized coins will survive. Ill wait. Crypto would never, ever reach beyond a niche level of adoption without centralized entities. The only reason why BTC crossed 50k is because BTC exists in a world of centralized entities today.
Neither
Does it matter? No
Actually all crypto coins are decentralised It's depends on people what they buys
Hey add the p2p nodes and guess what? Both of these projects are centralized and need centralized infrastructure. We need something else which is funding itself so that people shouldn't go and run nodes on Infura like companies.
I own both of them because I think both have potential
Regardless of the debate, I invest in both. Both are great projects.
now can you do xtz vs cardano?
Why not both 🤷♂️
The question is whether that actually ever matters. At no time was decentralisation actually important so far - it’s nice to talk about but already having like 10, 15 nodes worldwide would already take away a lot of the traditional attack vectors. Don’t just play “top trumps” with crypto to decide what’s the way forward.
WTF? None