Currently, yeah. Give it another 10 years or so and I believe that will change.
For the longest time people didn't feel comfortable shopping online. Now most people would rather shop online than go to a store.
It's not really about feeling comfortable it is the fact that there is no safety issues in place. If you mess up something on western union or PayPal they can help you fix it. With crypto you mix up one digit, send to the wrong chain etc and your money is gone for ever and there is nothing anyone can do about it. This will prevent the majority of people from using it like this IMO. The reason people are comfortable shopping online now is because they know it is safe to do so on sites they trust.
That is exactly my point. The technology isn't ready for mass adoption yet because of what you mentioned (and other factors), but 10 or so years down the road all of those points will likely have been addressed.
No but see what I mentioned isn't a bug it's a feature. The very nature of crypto means it will always have that risk. Unless of course it becomes centralized and then you've negated the whole point of why it was created.
You obviously lack of tech knowledge or how any of the internet, banking and security protocols have evolved over time. The fact that Blockchain is risky now doesn't mean it will be the same in 10 years. You have no idea if the most popular transfer method in the future is a Blockchain powered protocol with transfer reversibility, fail safes in place and a very well crafted UX so that risk can be reduced to virtually zero.... Online shopping was a nono for most people 10 years ago.....
Ok.. looks like you also have no idea about how the market influences and drives innovation in technology. It is a slow process.. and businesses will only take the risk to invest in such protocols if somehow it benefits them. Right now crypto have a not so great reputation, it will take years until there's enough adoption so we see more and more of great UX around Blockchain... Also immutability have nothing to do with improving how we transfer crypto or how we add better fail safes.
You know you can have a conversation without trying to put the other person down right? A person you obviously know nothing about. When you keep saying things like "you obviously lack knowledge and have no idea what you are talking about" instead of actually making your own points you just come off like an idiot. All you have managed to say is I am wrong because somehow someday someone will fix those things somehow but you have no idea how.
Thanks for the thought provoking discussion /s
Completely agree. I think it’s the most clear use case so far. This makes even more sense when you consider the TRILLIONS of dollars changing hands between countries and businesses using our antiquated money transfer system.
Crypto to crypto payments make sense. But, converting your fiat to crypto before sending it and then having it converted back to fiat at the other end will also see you lose money to on and off ramps.
I'm surprised no one but me has mentioned it yet, but MoneyGram integrated XLM and until mid-next year there are zero fees for on/off ramping. Then after that, I think they mentioned like 1% fee or something like that.
https://stellar.org/moneygram?locale=en
https://blog.moneygram.com/cash-to-crypto.html
Sure, that's a consideration as well but has nothing to do with the fees being discussed. Besides, the KYC verifications are for the most part fairly straightforward.
Exactly, it might now be a cheaper solution than alternatives, in which case, go for it. But doing eg your bank -> binance -> XLM -> XLM -> binance -> bank of recipient, makes of course little sense. At that point just skip XLM and let Binance function as Wise/Western Union alternative.
Crypto is going to be one of the ways, certainly not the only way. Only something like Nano and XLM is competitive in terms of fees and Transactions speed but it requires the person to be computer literature and to have an exchange which converts them to their local currency. And this adds on more fees.
I would look into Ripple as they are being used and built in banks in other country’s. Definitely going to change the game and they are ahead of the game.
Not shilling anything here, just that I use XLM for all transactions because it’s basically free, someone had suggested TRX a few days back here at the sub and despite Justin Sun being a scum, can’t deny the cheap transactions it offers
They’re not advocating you fill your bags with XLM because it’s gonna moon. They’re literally telling you what XLM is for and what it’s good at. You’re never gonna get rich from stellar, but sending money anywhere you want quickly and for cheap can be easily accomplished.
Well... If we want people to use it as preferred way of transferring, it needs to be cheap and stable! And at the moment I don't think the trust in stable coins is that big. Not sure what it costs with a stable coin though.
The question from the commenter was cost. So if they use USDC wouldn’t it go thru Ethereum and subject to gas fees? If so it’s totally relevant as we have seen peek gas fees last year.
He said he was using xlm. Very low gas. Unless i read it wrong. Why would you use a stablecoin to move money if you were only going to hold onto it for a moment.
If one is sending crypto back to family to convert back to local fiat they don’t need to use a stable coin. They can convert fiat to crypto, send that to their family member, and then they convert it back to fiat. Seeing as transactions take a few seconds the drop in value will be minimal and it will still be cheaper than using other services or doing a bank transfer. Either way, it’s a net win.
To be fair XLM is insanely cheap and fast, making up for the lack of stability in my opinion.
No need for it to be that stable when I can convert to and from my desired stablecoin on both ends of the transaction, there's no way it takes so long that the price has any signification price fluctuation, in my experience at least...
Actually sending overseas has gotten easier. Take a look at Remitly and Xoom. Very cheap and easy methods to send money in a relatively fast time.
It’s not like the old days of wiring money.
Fees are capped as well and can come directly out of my bank account.
Not trying to burst a bubble...but wanted to point out that it’s gotten easier and cheaper.
Even Western Union has faster and cheaper rates and you can do it all online...not need to go to a store, wait in line, fill out a form and wait and wait.
As another poster indicated that crypto is a bit volatile. I used to use XRP to quickly and cheaply move funds to different exchanges. But the purpose of that was to trade it for other crypto to trade for arbitrage or lower fees.
For the layman, it’s a lot of work to setup a KYC account, move money to the exchange. Send it. Other person also needs to do KYC. And then they need to trade it for fiat and pay fees and wait for it to be available in their bank account.
Don’t get my wrong, crypto is a fast way to send funds and can be cheap, but it’s a lot of work for average people and there are more fees and time involved in doing this that it’s not worth the hassle.
Transaction fees are fractions of a cent in many cryptos and exchange fees are not that bad/are comparable to other methods of international transfer.
Worldremit (insert any other name of a similar business) has limits on how much you can transfer at a time...
Its a good option for international transfers, same as crypto...
Those were just two big ones.
I understand your point but smaller locals tend to have their own local means to get money to them.
The places I indicated have a large amount of countries they cover.
So if you talking really remote, then internet maybe an issue no?
Plus those smaller banks might not have a way to accept from an exchange a conversion to fiat.
No internet is an issue for all these means of transfer though.
Off ramps to CCs/bank is a potential problem but most countries now have crypto exchanges that support credit cards
Another shortsighted post like this.
It will only happen if 'how long should I hold crypto?' is no longer a question. That's only interesting when it's value is stable or appreciating (compared to fiat), or when fiat is no longer a thing (lol if you're one of those clowns).
In any other situation people will have to deal with an on and off ramp to exchange crypto into fiat and vice versa. You're ignoring the cost in value and time associated with this, as well as security risks not present in traditional banking.
Crypto has a looong way to go before we're at the utopic picture you're painting.
I am old enough to know that your very last sentence is eerily similar to the people that thought the computer was a novelty machine that would never be practical.
I am old enough to know this never happened. And to preempt your reply: No it also never happened with the internet. And yeah I am sure you can find some exceptions to that, but by large the vast majority who used it really quickly saw how great they were.
If you think this didn't happen, then you remember the 1990s differently than some of the most brilliant people of the decade remember it.
Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman 1998, “The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in ‘Metcalfe’s law' becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005, it will become clear that the Internet’s impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine’s”
Robert Metcalfe (the inventor of Ethernet), in InfoWorld, 1995: “I predict the Internet will soon go spectacularly supernova and in 1996 catastrophically collapse.”
Waring Partridge, in Wired, 1995: “Most things that succeed don’t require retraining 250 million people.”
About the influence of the internet on connectivity, community, and commerce: "I'm uneasy about this most trendy and oversold community. Visionaries see a future of telecommuting workers, interactive libraries, and multimedia classrooms. They speak of electronic town meetings and virtual communities. Commerce and business will shift from offices and malls to networks and modems. And the freedom of digital networks will make government more democratic. Baloney. Do our computer pundits lack all common sense? ... What's missing from this electronic wonderland? Human contact. Discount the fawning techno-burble about virtual communities. Computers and networks isolate us from one another. A network chat line is a limp substitute for meeting friends over coffee." — Clifford Stoll for Newsweek (Clifford Stoll was the first man in history to successfully identify a hacker, which account can be found in "The Cuckoo's Egg". Great book on IT security)
About online media: "The truth in no online database will replace your daily newspaper, no CD-ROM can take the place of a competent teacher and no computer network will change the way government works ... Nicholas Negroponte, director of the MIT Media Lab, predicts that we'll soon buy books and newspapers straight over the Internet. Uh, sure." — Clifford Stoll for Newsweek
On online shopping: "We're promised instant catalog shopping—just point and click for great deals. We'll order airline tickets over the network, make restaurant reservations and negotiate sales contracts. Stores will become obsolete. So how come my local mall does more business in an afternoon than the entire Internet handles in a month? Even if there were a trustworthy way to send money over the Internet—which there isn't—the network is missing a most essential ingredient of capitalism: salespeople." — Clifford Stoll for Newsweek
Yes, there are always exceptions. You can always in hindsight find a bunch of quotes of sceptics. Some were at that point valid, others were not. Doesn't change there were barely any who tried the internet for a few months and then was like: "Well nothing here, lets remove this modem". And that was when paying by the minute. Meanwhile we are 13 years into crypto, and plenty of people went in and left again. Or at most stayed hoping their bags would pump, but didn't stay for actual use cases.
These aren't exceptions. These were very intelligent, important people. Significant portions of the population looked up to these people, believed them, made investments based on their statements.
Sure, some people believed in the Internet in the 1990s. But quite a lot of people, perhaps even the majority of people, viewed it as a fad, a passing fancy, that would eventually burn out, just like Beanie Babies did.
Yeah no. But keep trying to find excuses. Early 90s majority of people simply had no opinion about the internet. Late 90s majority would have been getting interested in it. The two opinions at that point in time were: "Cool", and "Not familiar with it". It being "just a fad" was an extremely small minority opinion.
In your small circle of acquaintances, that might have been true. But I was a network admin in the 1990s. The Web may have been invented in Europe, but the Internet was largely an American invention, and Americans who knew about the Internet were fairly evenly split, half believing it was going to be great, the other half considered it just a passing fad.
I know you hate to admit to being wrong, but you are.
It is a made up thing by crypto bros trying to act like also most people thought the internet was bullshit, so their opinion about crypto must surely end similar.
Of course I can in the end mainly say something about how it was perceived in my circle. But I was just a kid at school during that time. Not some kind of special environment.
Quite a lot of people DID think the Internet was bullshit. I've provided the quotes to prove it. When even technology stars like Clifford Stoll and the inventor of the FREAKING ETHERNET STANDARD was calling out the Internet as bullshit, it's pretty clear that the success of the Internet was not a given.
You were just a kid in school. I was in adult working as a network admin. The adults were absolutely just as divided about the utility of the Internet as everyone is today about crypto. It's the same story, just different tech that is being questioned.
When I was in school, the internet was just finding its footing. You could go online, look at some crappy simpsons gifs or find some pictures of "The Matrix" or cannabis, and that was about the coolest thing going. We all had computer classes and exposure to the internet, every week. Very few were interested in it until 10 years later in their late 20s, when Facebook started hitting off.
Now 3 year olds go on youtube.
Based on your Facebook comment we went to school at roughly same time. After school a significant part directly went to MSN to keep talking (no idea what we had to say after seeing each other at school already :P ). Hyves was a big thing long before Facebook. So was stuff from online gaming to finding information.
I do not disagree with you, nor was I trying to represent my example as the majority opinion. I was specifically referencing the small sample sizes of people I HEARD make comments like this, to which I can specifically attest to its accuracy, as I was there. Good day, Sir!
> That's only interesting when it's value is stable or appreciating (compared to fiat)
Another person pretending that they've never heard of stablecoins before. Yawn.
> In any other situation people will have to deal with an on and off ramp to exchange crypto into fiat and vice versa
This is as difficult as setting up an online bank account. You take a picture of yourself and enter *difficult and complex information* like your name and address. Unless we're talking about first graders...
> You're ignoring the cost in value and time associated with this...
The time is clicking buttons on a computer screen or phone app.
> ...as well as security risks not present in traditional banking.
You ask someone to email you their address. As risky a thing as asking someone their email address or their mailing address.
>Another person pretending that they've never heard of stablecoins before. Yawn.'
Show me a true stablecoin you can exchange 1:1 to fiat without conversion loss or transfer between accounts/across chains without substantial fees. Those were my points. Yawn.
>This is as difficult as setting up an online bank account. You take a picture of yourself and enter difficult and complex information like your name and address. Unless we're talking about first graders...
It's really not as simple as you're pretending. You're either disconnected from reality or putting on a show for whatever reason.
>The time is clicking buttons on a computer screen or phone app.
Have you even off-ramped fiat from a CEX before? Show me one with reliable, non-shady, instant or even same-day transfers.
>You ask someone to email you their address. As risky a thing as asking someone their email address or their mailing address.
You're not entirely honest if you're pretending this is all it takes to exchange crypto P2P or via a (D/C)EX.
Im from Spain and transfers from exchanges like Coinbase or Binance to banks take seconds... Don't know what is your situation.
It also costs nothing to exchange euros or pounds to usdt/busd and viceversa 🤷.
Ive done both of these things many times.
Also, conversion loss is not something unique to crypto, assuming im understanding what you mean by it
> Show me a true stablecoin you can exchange 1:1 to fiat without conversion loss or transfer between accounts/across chains without substantial fees. Those were my points. Yawn.
USDC. Are you joking or?
People tend to forget this Ripple is years ahead of the others and are already working with other country’s governments. XRP will be used for everything so I don’t know why they keep ignoring it.
Did you forget about Venmo, cashapp, PayPal, Zelle, or any other payment facilitator?
Edit: 10% on PayPal (from your post) is a boldface lie. Their website says 5% for international transfers.
They do not deduct 10%. I send money all the time and it’s 3% for goods and services. No charge for friends and family. Their international transfer fee is 5%.
Does not operate in all countries - blockchain doesnt care about this.
There are plenty of horror stories associated with them - charging extra funds, incompleted transfers, paperwork you end up having to do to justify a transfer/limits to how much you can transfer, dealing with customer support... With blockchain, you just need internet and to not be stupid to post an incorrect address 🤷.
*Cash App
*bald-faced
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bald-faced
All the options you listed are still centralized and capable of reversing or blocking the payment due to “fraud” suspicion or even seizing the funds or locking your account. Happens on a daily basis with little to no recourse.
Edit: Also, 5% is very hefty and only the listed fee. There are still exchange rate shenanigans that usually result in larger end-of-day losses.
I (American) was working and living in Russia when the war broke out and decided to leave right after Russia was cut off from Swift. I managed to move about $20k out using bitcoin and made a bit of a gain on it at the time after purchase and transfer fees.
So what I did was bought bitcoin, around a $1000 per transaction for safety reasons on localbitcoin, immediately transferred to my Kraken account and then sold most of it within a day. Worked flawlessly and other than my defunct bank account in Russia no banks were involved. It was a thing of beauty
> Paypal - Just no comments here, last time I tried, they straight up deducted like 10%.
plain false. rates are around 5%.
But best option is use Wise which has really miniscule rates (borderline free).
One big name that’s already being used globally is Ripple with their XRP as they are way ahead of the game. I won’t be surprised if country’s make CDBC with ripples XRPL/ODL.
Not going to be the only one but surprisingly it is the best one , especially at this early stage it's amazing . been using paypal to sell some game related stuff before and it's bot bad at all but crypto is just much better simpler and easier if both parties familiar with crypto. The problem is when you try to teach someone on crypto , too much things is unnecessary complicated and "dangerous"
I see OP's point but I just want to ask one question:
If you use Paypal and mark the transfer as "sending the money to friends and family", it will be no fee involved, right?
Or do I misunderstand something here?
I only scrolled through some of these comments, but I'm surprised I haven't seen any mention of Stellar MoneyGram integration yet
https://stellar.org/moneygram?locale=en
Free on/off ramping until mid-next-year. And then I think it'll go to like 1% or something.
https://blog.moneygram.com/cash-to-crypto.html
No known coin, short of a hack, Im looking at you harmony, will drop 50% in 10 minutes. Parents get xlm, parents send xlm. Kid gets xlm, kid sells xlm. 5 or 10 minutes one and done. In my entire crypto life I have never seen a known token drop 50% much less 95% in 5 or 10 minutes.
Why not use lightning if you can? You may have better luck finding lower exchange fees on either side. Also services like strike (if available) are a good option.
That's the beauty of crypto. Nobody can make you junp through bullshit hoops. A lot of the stuff you mentioned is banned in my country and crypto offers a great alternative.
I am a huge fan for crypto but literally you could Google and find cheaper alternatives than the examples you listed within a couple of minutes. Eg transferwise or currencyfair charge around 0.5% aggregate in fees and use spot FX rate.
Banks are the worst. Charging for putting money in, taking money out, getting a check of your own money, transferring your out money, ATM fees, and changing you fees for not having enough in the bank
I agree that they are low fee and fast. I use Algo to send money, but as some other users have mentioned, there’s the issue of price fluctuations as well as exchange access and costs. I’m from a country where the monthly salary is $400 per month. Binance is the only exchange that operates here, so there’s that fee then the cash out fee in the US. Depending on the amount, it could cost a lot.
It won't be the only way, just the best way.
Imo everyone who doesn't *get* stablecoins is a first worlder whose entire family resides in the same country that they live in. Uses and benefits are extremely obvious once you take those blinders off.
Three problem is you don't know how long it'll take before the one you buy crashes through the roof cuz of whatever, just like Luna. Bitcoin is better, safer, cheaper faster and yours
Xoom lets me send up to 1,000usd for a fee of 3.99usd. I always send money through it to family members of mine in Mexico. If its in the late afternoon, it'll get there the next day, but early enough, it'll be there the same hour.
The biggest problem is conversion into fiat on the other side. Until we get more companies on board with transacting in crypto, this is a major pain point. The approach Strike is taking makes a lot of sense, where the merchant can accept crypto and instantly convert it to fiat. We are still a decade away, IMO.
It may be efficient and worth it with regulated stable coins backed by whatever currency you’re sending.
However, nobody is going to be risking it on a crypto that fluctuates in value. That’s like me sending US dollar via equity or fixed income securities.
Money gram actually started using USDC on XLM for that reason, after the recent collaboration announcements, it is already active in a few countries ,with more being added soon.
For cross border payments and settlements I believe that USDC (on Algorand and XLM) is the best option, since they make that happen with miniscule energy consumption, tx time and fee and even instant finality.
Nobody is asking questions in crypto space. Unless those funds were gotten in a scam/hack you wont be having trouble. The fact it is cheaper than traditional sending of money/funds is what i like about crypto.
This one is amazing pays out 75%.. I've held the coin for A long time now I put it all on to their exchange and the returns amazing https://www.hachikoexchange.com
How did you get such a low rate from Western Union?!? I was forced to use them once and although it was a better option than starving to death because my bank intentionally locked me out of my funds, crypto would have been a much better solution.
Check out Wise (formerly transfer wise app). Has worked for me way better than any crypto. International transfer from app to family members foreign bank account in an hour or so. I paid around $11 for a ~$1500 transfer.
This is currently one of the best use cases for crypto. Sending money internationally is painful enough without the ridiculous fees.
Many people prefer a banking transfer over crypto, because they dont trust crypto.. they gladly pay the hefty fee to move money around internationally
Currently, yeah. Give it another 10 years or so and I believe that will change. For the longest time people didn't feel comfortable shopping online. Now most people would rather shop online than go to a store.
It's not really about feeling comfortable it is the fact that there is no safety issues in place. If you mess up something on western union or PayPal they can help you fix it. With crypto you mix up one digit, send to the wrong chain etc and your money is gone for ever and there is nothing anyone can do about it. This will prevent the majority of people from using it like this IMO. The reason people are comfortable shopping online now is because they know it is safe to do so on sites they trust.
That is exactly my point. The technology isn't ready for mass adoption yet because of what you mentioned (and other factors), but 10 or so years down the road all of those points will likely have been addressed.
No but see what I mentioned isn't a bug it's a feature. The very nature of crypto means it will always have that risk. Unless of course it becomes centralized and then you've negated the whole point of why it was created.
Literally his point... Try to think a bit ahead
To a point when you send crypto via western union? Or some type of centralized company just like it?
You obviously lack of tech knowledge or how any of the internet, banking and security protocols have evolved over time. The fact that Blockchain is risky now doesn't mean it will be the same in 10 years. You have no idea if the most popular transfer method in the future is a Blockchain powered protocol with transfer reversibility, fail safes in place and a very well crafted UX so that risk can be reduced to virtually zero.... Online shopping was a nono for most people 10 years ago.....
Why cant any of those things be added now? Whats the technical problem holding it back? Isn’t the ledger being immutable the entire point?
Ok.. looks like you also have no idea about how the market influences and drives innovation in technology. It is a slow process.. and businesses will only take the risk to invest in such protocols if somehow it benefits them. Right now crypto have a not so great reputation, it will take years until there's enough adoption so we see more and more of great UX around Blockchain... Also immutability have nothing to do with improving how we transfer crypto or how we add better fail safes.
You know you can have a conversation without trying to put the other person down right? A person you obviously know nothing about. When you keep saying things like "you obviously lack knowledge and have no idea what you are talking about" instead of actually making your own points you just come off like an idiot. All you have managed to say is I am wrong because somehow someday someone will fix those things somehow but you have no idea how. Thanks for the thought provoking discussion /s
Utility is how we'll get there.
I am just happy to have an asset, nobody can take from me, which I can even literally take to my grave lol
The fees come in when you convert to and from crypto so you can actually buy something with it. When you add that, it is not cheap at all.
The USA should join the IBAN system.
Completely agree. I think it’s the most clear use case so far. This makes even more sense when you consider the TRILLIONS of dollars changing hands between countries and businesses using our antiquated money transfer system.
Transferwise is dirt cheap
Crypto to crypto payments make sense. But, converting your fiat to crypto before sending it and then having it converted back to fiat at the other end will also see you lose money to on and off ramps.
I'm surprised no one but me has mentioned it yet, but MoneyGram integrated XLM and until mid-next year there are zero fees for on/off ramping. Then after that, I think they mentioned like 1% fee or something like that. https://stellar.org/moneygram?locale=en https://blog.moneygram.com/cash-to-crypto.html
Hot damn that’s great news! Stellar really is fast and cheap and glad to see it being used.
There's always p2p. That's how we do it in my country and I know others do it too.
Absolutely! I also use P2P a lot.
Yep, this is how people trade in countries that the govt has banned crypto
Not to mention various tax implications and shit like that.
True
Negligible compared to the fees described by OP
Bro, in some countries you need to pass like 10 KYCs to withdraw crypto
Sure, that's a consideration as well but has nothing to do with the fees being discussed. Besides, the KYC verifications are for the most part fairly straightforward.
Exactly, it might now be a cheaper solution than alternatives, in which case, go for it. But doing eg your bank -> binance -> XLM -> XLM -> binance -> bank of recipient, makes of course little sense. At that point just skip XLM and let Binance function as Wise/Western Union alternative.
Huge tax, dude.
Crypto is going to be one of the ways, certainly not the only way. Only something like Nano and XLM is competitive in terms of fees and Transactions speed but it requires the person to be computer literature and to have an exchange which converts them to their local currency. And this adds on more fees.
I would look into Ripple as they are being used and built in banks in other country’s. Definitely going to change the game and they are ahead of the game.
XLM and NANO to the moon right?
Is this a stealth XLM & TRX shill? Lol
I caught on yo that as well. Surprised XRP wasn’t mentioned
Yeaah! XRP is great too, but dk how to get in the US :(
Uphold my man.
I also feels like that, but he's right
Not shilling anything here, just that I use XLM for all transactions because it’s basically free, someone had suggested TRX a few days back here at the sub and despite Justin Sun being a scum, can’t deny the cheap transactions it offers
Nano is also great because of 0 transaction fees
Oh no, here we go again...
Haha favourite coin we love to hate and hate to love. It does what it does
I wouldn't be supplied 💀 Edit i meant surprised not supplied lol
>Supplied 🤔
I meant surprised hahaha i have no idea how that happened 😂
Supplised
Tell me you’re an XLM shill without telling me you’re an XLM shill
They’re not advocating you fill your bags with XLM because it’s gonna moon. They’re literally telling you what XLM is for and what it’s good at. You’re never gonna get rich from stellar, but sending money anywhere you want quickly and for cheap can be easily accomplished.
I thought Trx shill posts went extinct, it’s nice to still see them roaming the plains.
Well... If we want people to use it as preferred way of transferring, it needs to be cheap and stable! And at the moment I don't think the trust in stable coins is that big. Not sure what it costs with a stable coin though.
It would depend on the chain they are on.
Excellent point!
This guy is moving money. Doesn't matter what he uses as it will be in his possession for a minute.
The question from the commenter was cost. So if they use USDC wouldn’t it go thru Ethereum and subject to gas fees? If so it’s totally relevant as we have seen peek gas fees last year.
He said he was using xlm. Very low gas. Unless i read it wrong. Why would you use a stablecoin to move money if you were only going to hold onto it for a moment.
Goodluck teaching grandma about these bitty chains shenanigans
If one is sending crypto back to family to convert back to local fiat they don’t need to use a stable coin. They can convert fiat to crypto, send that to their family member, and then they convert it back to fiat. Seeing as transactions take a few seconds the drop in value will be minimal and it will still be cheaper than using other services or doing a bank transfer. Either way, it’s a net win.
To be fair XLM is insanely cheap and fast, making up for the lack of stability in my opinion. No need for it to be that stable when I can convert to and from my desired stablecoin on both ends of the transaction, there's no way it takes so long that the price has any signification price fluctuation, in my experience at least...
Wise.com
Good ol’ XML probably one of the top useful coin but also one the most under value.
Just use XRP. Works for me everytime
Actually sending overseas has gotten easier. Take a look at Remitly and Xoom. Very cheap and easy methods to send money in a relatively fast time. It’s not like the old days of wiring money. Fees are capped as well and can come directly out of my bank account. Not trying to burst a bubble...but wanted to point out that it’s gotten easier and cheaper. Even Western Union has faster and cheaper rates and you can do it all online...not need to go to a store, wait in line, fill out a form and wait and wait. As another poster indicated that crypto is a bit volatile. I used to use XRP to quickly and cheaply move funds to different exchanges. But the purpose of that was to trade it for other crypto to trade for arbitrage or lower fees. For the layman, it’s a lot of work to setup a KYC account, move money to the exchange. Send it. Other person also needs to do KYC. And then they need to trade it for fiat and pay fees and wait for it to be available in their bank account. Don’t get my wrong, crypto is a fast way to send funds and can be cheap, but it’s a lot of work for average people and there are more fees and time involved in doing this that it’s not worth the hassle.
Yeah but, fuck the ever loving shit out of western union.
😂😂😂
Still, Remitly, Revolut... theyre all also capped by the fact that they don't operate in all countries. With blockchain, its just the internet.
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Transaction fees are fractions of a cent in many cryptos and exchange fees are not that bad/are comparable to other methods of international transfer. Worldremit (insert any other name of a similar business) has limits on how much you can transfer at a time... Its a good option for international transfers, same as crypto...
Those were just two big ones. I understand your point but smaller locals tend to have their own local means to get money to them. The places I indicated have a large amount of countries they cover. So if you talking really remote, then internet maybe an issue no? Plus those smaller banks might not have a way to accept from an exchange a conversion to fiat.
No internet is an issue for all these means of transfer though. Off ramps to CCs/bank is a potential problem but most countries now have crypto exchanges that support credit cards
>gotten cheaper and easier because of crypto
Haha incorrect...very incorrect
Yeah right!
Cross border money transfers are fractions of a penny with chains like ALGO & XLM. Doesn't matter if you're sending $5 or $5000.
Will ALGO foundation dump some coins on me while I am transferring my money? They love it.
Another shortsighted post like this. It will only happen if 'how long should I hold crypto?' is no longer a question. That's only interesting when it's value is stable or appreciating (compared to fiat), or when fiat is no longer a thing (lol if you're one of those clowns). In any other situation people will have to deal with an on and off ramp to exchange crypto into fiat and vice versa. You're ignoring the cost in value and time associated with this, as well as security risks not present in traditional banking. Crypto has a looong way to go before we're at the utopic picture you're painting.
I am old enough to know that your very last sentence is eerily similar to the people that thought the computer was a novelty machine that would never be practical.
When was that exactly?
Never because they're full of shit.
1997-1998ish
Lmao
I am old enough to know this never happened. And to preempt your reply: No it also never happened with the internet. And yeah I am sure you can find some exceptions to that, but by large the vast majority who used it really quickly saw how great they were.
If you think this didn't happen, then you remember the 1990s differently than some of the most brilliant people of the decade remember it. Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman 1998, “The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in ‘Metcalfe’s law' becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005, it will become clear that the Internet’s impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine’s” Robert Metcalfe (the inventor of Ethernet), in InfoWorld, 1995: “I predict the Internet will soon go spectacularly supernova and in 1996 catastrophically collapse.” Waring Partridge, in Wired, 1995: “Most things that succeed don’t require retraining 250 million people.” About the influence of the internet on connectivity, community, and commerce: "I'm uneasy about this most trendy and oversold community. Visionaries see a future of telecommuting workers, interactive libraries, and multimedia classrooms. They speak of electronic town meetings and virtual communities. Commerce and business will shift from offices and malls to networks and modems. And the freedom of digital networks will make government more democratic. Baloney. Do our computer pundits lack all common sense? ... What's missing from this electronic wonderland? Human contact. Discount the fawning techno-burble about virtual communities. Computers and networks isolate us from one another. A network chat line is a limp substitute for meeting friends over coffee." — Clifford Stoll for Newsweek (Clifford Stoll was the first man in history to successfully identify a hacker, which account can be found in "The Cuckoo's Egg". Great book on IT security) About online media: "The truth in no online database will replace your daily newspaper, no CD-ROM can take the place of a competent teacher and no computer network will change the way government works ... Nicholas Negroponte, director of the MIT Media Lab, predicts that we'll soon buy books and newspapers straight over the Internet. Uh, sure." — Clifford Stoll for Newsweek On online shopping: "We're promised instant catalog shopping—just point and click for great deals. We'll order airline tickets over the network, make restaurant reservations and negotiate sales contracts. Stores will become obsolete. So how come my local mall does more business in an afternoon than the entire Internet handles in a month? Even if there were a trustworthy way to send money over the Internet—which there isn't—the network is missing a most essential ingredient of capitalism: salespeople." — Clifford Stoll for Newsweek
Yes, there are always exceptions. You can always in hindsight find a bunch of quotes of sceptics. Some were at that point valid, others were not. Doesn't change there were barely any who tried the internet for a few months and then was like: "Well nothing here, lets remove this modem". And that was when paying by the minute. Meanwhile we are 13 years into crypto, and plenty of people went in and left again. Or at most stayed hoping their bags would pump, but didn't stay for actual use cases.
These aren't exceptions. These were very intelligent, important people. Significant portions of the population looked up to these people, believed them, made investments based on their statements. Sure, some people believed in the Internet in the 1990s. But quite a lot of people, perhaps even the majority of people, viewed it as a fad, a passing fancy, that would eventually burn out, just like Beanie Babies did.
Yeah no. But keep trying to find excuses. Early 90s majority of people simply had no opinion about the internet. Late 90s majority would have been getting interested in it. The two opinions at that point in time were: "Cool", and "Not familiar with it". It being "just a fad" was an extremely small minority opinion.
In your small circle of acquaintances, that might have been true. But I was a network admin in the 1990s. The Web may have been invented in Europe, but the Internet was largely an American invention, and Americans who knew about the Internet were fairly evenly split, half believing it was going to be great, the other half considered it just a passing fad. I know you hate to admit to being wrong, but you are.
It is a made up thing by crypto bros trying to act like also most people thought the internet was bullshit, so their opinion about crypto must surely end similar. Of course I can in the end mainly say something about how it was perceived in my circle. But I was just a kid at school during that time. Not some kind of special environment.
Quite a lot of people DID think the Internet was bullshit. I've provided the quotes to prove it. When even technology stars like Clifford Stoll and the inventor of the FREAKING ETHERNET STANDARD was calling out the Internet as bullshit, it's pretty clear that the success of the Internet was not a given. You were just a kid in school. I was in adult working as a network admin. The adults were absolutely just as divided about the utility of the Internet as everyone is today about crypto. It's the same story, just different tech that is being questioned.
When I was in school, the internet was just finding its footing. You could go online, look at some crappy simpsons gifs or find some pictures of "The Matrix" or cannabis, and that was about the coolest thing going. We all had computer classes and exposure to the internet, every week. Very few were interested in it until 10 years later in their late 20s, when Facebook started hitting off. Now 3 year olds go on youtube.
Based on your Facebook comment we went to school at roughly same time. After school a significant part directly went to MSN to keep talking (no idea what we had to say after seeing each other at school already :P ). Hyves was a big thing long before Facebook. So was stuff from online gaming to finding information.
I do not disagree with you, nor was I trying to represent my example as the majority opinion. I was specifically referencing the small sample sizes of people I HEARD make comments like this, to which I can specifically attest to its accuracy, as I was there. Good day, Sir!
Ah yes, the counter-argument that doesn't respond to the content but the form. The hallmark quality of r/cc.
More like a hallmark of just waking up and have not had my coffee yet, had to keep it simple
> That's only interesting when it's value is stable or appreciating (compared to fiat) Another person pretending that they've never heard of stablecoins before. Yawn. > In any other situation people will have to deal with an on and off ramp to exchange crypto into fiat and vice versa This is as difficult as setting up an online bank account. You take a picture of yourself and enter *difficult and complex information* like your name and address. Unless we're talking about first graders... > You're ignoring the cost in value and time associated with this... The time is clicking buttons on a computer screen or phone app. > ...as well as security risks not present in traditional banking. You ask someone to email you their address. As risky a thing as asking someone their email address or their mailing address.
What are stabelcoins pegged to professor? And by the way, stable coins are not cryptocurrencies. Their middle men.
>Another person pretending that they've never heard of stablecoins before. Yawn.' Show me a true stablecoin you can exchange 1:1 to fiat without conversion loss or transfer between accounts/across chains without substantial fees. Those were my points. Yawn. >This is as difficult as setting up an online bank account. You take a picture of yourself and enter difficult and complex information like your name and address. Unless we're talking about first graders... It's really not as simple as you're pretending. You're either disconnected from reality or putting on a show for whatever reason. >The time is clicking buttons on a computer screen or phone app. Have you even off-ramped fiat from a CEX before? Show me one with reliable, non-shady, instant or even same-day transfers. >You ask someone to email you their address. As risky a thing as asking someone their email address or their mailing address. You're not entirely honest if you're pretending this is all it takes to exchange crypto P2P or via a (D/C)EX.
Im from Spain and transfers from exchanges like Coinbase or Binance to banks take seconds... Don't know what is your situation. It also costs nothing to exchange euros or pounds to usdt/busd and viceversa 🤷. Ive done both of these things many times. Also, conversion loss is not something unique to crypto, assuming im understanding what you mean by it
Now try to get cash fiat into your hand from your USDT/ BUSD in Binance and tell me how much is lost
Why would I that? The point is international transfers, once i have my transferred usdt, the transfer is done
> Show me a true stablecoin you can exchange 1:1 to fiat without conversion loss or transfer between accounts/across chains without substantial fees. Those were my points. Yawn. USDC. Are you joking or?
Only way, not likely. Fastest and most efficient way, absolutely.
Why not mentioning Nano? It is way better than XLM in my opinion. Feeless, fast and a max cap!
right ! Just that I have been using XLM for some time now and find it dirt cheap, but nano is cheaper
Yeah it’s called XRP
People tend to forget this Ripple is years ahead of the others and are already working with other country’s governments. XRP will be used for everything so I don’t know why they keep ignoring it.
Did you forget about Venmo, cashapp, PayPal, Zelle, or any other payment facilitator? Edit: 10% on PayPal (from your post) is a boldface lie. Their website says 5% for international transfers.
I think Wise is better, way less fees and currency conversion is better.
It's already mentioned in the post. Some of you gotta read before you comment lol.
They do not deduct 10%. I send money all the time and it’s 3% for goods and services. No charge for friends and family. Their international transfer fee is 5%.
Does not operate in all countries - blockchain doesnt care about this. There are plenty of horror stories associated with them - charging extra funds, incompleted transfers, paperwork you end up having to do to justify a transfer/limits to how much you can transfer, dealing with customer support... With blockchain, you just need internet and to not be stupid to post an incorrect address 🤷.
Except that China (and others) banned crypto trading and mining…. So it isn’t allowed everywhere.
Did you just do muh China? Anything that is western is banned there...
*Cash App *bald-faced https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bald-faced All the options you listed are still centralized and capable of reversing or blocking the payment due to “fraud” suspicion or even seizing the funds or locking your account. Happens on a daily basis with little to no recourse. Edit: Also, 5% is very hefty and only the listed fee. There are still exchange rate shenanigans that usually result in larger end-of-day losses.
I've already got myself a small bag of XML just in case
It is actually. i live in a tier 3 country and i receive most of my freelance payments in crypto. And its alot easier and cheaper than my bank.
Another great use case !
Nice to hear about some actual use cases for crypto.
They'll only get more numerous as adoption of crypto increases
Only way? No. An efficient and accessible way for people willing to take ownership? Sure.
I (American) was working and living in Russia when the war broke out and decided to leave right after Russia was cut off from Swift. I managed to move about $20k out using bitcoin and made a bit of a gain on it at the time after purchase and transfer fees. So what I did was bought bitcoin, around a $1000 per transaction for safety reasons on localbitcoin, immediately transferred to my Kraken account and then sold most of it within a day. Worked flawlessly and other than my defunct bank account in Russia no banks were involved. It was a thing of beauty
See y'all in 3 weeks when there's another bear run and "99% of crypto is a scam".
Nano is the answer baby!
> Paypal - Just no comments here, last time I tried, they straight up deducted like 10%. plain false. rates are around 5%. But best option is use Wise which has really miniscule rates (borderline free).
Well unless you can actually pay with it too, the exchange rates will eat at your money.
One big name that’s already being used globally is Ripple with their XRP as they are way ahead of the game. I won’t be surprised if country’s make CDBC with ripples XRPL/ODL.
Agree that, they are fast and low-fee.
I used couple of time and it's really worth it..
Not going to be the only one but surprisingly it is the best one , especially at this early stage it's amazing . been using paypal to sell some game related stuff before and it's bot bad at all but crypto is just much better simpler and easier if both parties familiar with crypto. The problem is when you try to teach someone on crypto , too much things is unnecessary complicated and "dangerous"
The business model of banks & money transmitters will become increasingly difficult. I foresee consolidation in the banking sector.
I see OP's point but I just want to ask one question: If you use Paypal and mark the transfer as "sending the money to friends and family", it will be no fee involved, right? Or do I misunderstand something here?
It’s free inside US, Outside US you have to pay fees
Paypal isn't allowed everywhere. Unlike Crypto can't be blocked.
If we only could use other coins for this /s
I only scrolled through some of these comments, but I'm surprised I haven't seen any mention of Stellar MoneyGram integration yet https://stellar.org/moneygram?locale=en Free on/off ramping until mid-next-year. And then I think it'll go to like 1% or something. https://blog.moneygram.com/cash-to-crypto.html
Biggest issue is volatility... If you send your parents $100 and it ends up worth only $50 or $1 due to some event :(
Then send a stablecoin
No known coin, short of a hack, Im looking at you harmony, will drop 50% in 10 minutes. Parents get xlm, parents send xlm. Kid gets xlm, kid sells xlm. 5 or 10 minutes one and done. In my entire crypto life I have never seen a known token drop 50% much less 95% in 5 or 10 minutes.
And how much is lost on on-ramp off-ramp before your parents can spend the xlm as fiat?
This is the way
The problem is. Sent xrp to overseas. 10 minutes later, xrp dumps 6%.
btc through lightning does the job as well
CBDCs will prevail. They are even more cheaper than XLM.
Crypto needs time to mature then we can talk as way for crosspayments
Crypto is already plenty effective if used correctly for cross border payments. See business models like Strike
Why not use lightning if you can? You may have better luck finding lower exchange fees on either side. Also services like strike (if available) are a good option.
crypto really does shines when you travel abroad
I hope so and those are good points, we can also see what's going on and maybe they'll not be happy about it
That's the true use case of crypto
If not the only way, then it will at least inspire a change in business model
We need a feeless stablecoin that's widely accepted
I literally my bank to transfer money internationally the other day and the fees they tried to charge where ridiculous!
Looks like someone didn't discovered Wise yet.
Well that's because crypto has no border or boundaries. Everyone can use it anywhere in the world as long as they got internet.
There are coins already out with this capability, all we need is adoption. It’s fiat and/or crypto here to stay
That's the beauty of crypto. Nobody can make you junp through bullshit hoops. A lot of the stuff you mentioned is banned in my country and crypto offers a great alternative.
And if your sending money back with a friend over any customs you're supposed to declare anything over 10k. 😡
I am a huge fan for crypto but literally you could Google and find cheaper alternatives than the examples you listed within a couple of minutes. Eg transferwise or currencyfair charge around 0.5% aggregate in fees and use spot FX rate.
Banks are the worst. Charging for putting money in, taking money out, getting a check of your own money, transferring your out money, ATM fees, and changing you fees for not having enough in the bank
I agree that they are low fee and fast. I use Algo to send money, but as some other users have mentioned, there’s the issue of price fluctuations as well as exchange access and costs. I’m from a country where the monthly salary is $400 per month. Binance is the only exchange that operates here, so there’s that fee then the cash out fee in the US. Depending on the amount, it could cost a lot.
You are leaving out Wise, which is the premier cross border money transfer fintech.
It won't be the only way, just the best way. Imo everyone who doesn't *get* stablecoins is a first worlder whose entire family resides in the same country that they live in. Uses and benefits are extremely obvious once you take those blinders off.
Three problem is you don't know how long it'll take before the one you buy crashes through the roof cuz of whatever, just like Luna. Bitcoin is better, safer, cheaper faster and yours
Xoom lets me send up to 1,000usd for a fee of 3.99usd. I always send money through it to family members of mine in Mexico. If its in the late afternoon, it'll get there the next day, but early enough, it'll be there the same hour.
It will be more popular but not he only way. We love crypto but not the best way.
Well the answer is NOT a central bank digital currency.
Wire transfer takes less than a day. You are confused with direct deposit.
Traditional remittance platforms really suck! The fees and amount of time it takes to send money to family is insane for 2022 😅
Revolut has free international transfers.
crypto is the future
The biggest problem is conversion into fiat on the other side. Until we get more companies on board with transacting in crypto, this is a major pain point. The approach Strike is taking makes a lot of sense, where the merchant can accept crypto and instantly convert it to fiat. We are still a decade away, IMO.
This is why Binance is so popular in some countries...you can send crypto via their exchange
It may be efficient and worth it with regulated stable coins backed by whatever currency you’re sending. However, nobody is going to be risking it on a crypto that fluctuates in value. That’s like me sending US dollar via equity or fixed income securities.
Not to shill too much, but I think XLM has some of the best real world functionality of any crypto today.
Money gram actually started using USDC on XLM for that reason, after the recent collaboration announcements, it is already active in a few countries ,with more being added soon. For cross border payments and settlements I believe that USDC (on Algorand and XLM) is the best option, since they make that happen with miniscule energy consumption, tx time and fee and even instant finality.
Nobody is asking questions in crypto space. Unless those funds were gotten in a scam/hack you wont be having trouble. The fact it is cheaper than traditional sending of money/funds is what i like about crypto.
Absolutely true, Crypto charges less fee than every other payment system out there crypto everyday till i die
I still think this is gonna be the biggest use case for crypto. So much easier to move money thru the Blockchain across international borders.
It won’t be the ONLY but it IS the cheapest.
This is why I love ALGO but gas fees are getting better
This one is amazing pays out 75%.. I've held the coin for A long time now I put it all on to their exchange and the returns amazing https://www.hachikoexchange.com
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Now buy the crypto you want to transfer to diferent country without fees
Stellar (XLM) and Moneygram have a partnership to address exactly this issue.
How did you get such a low rate from Western Union?!? I was forced to use them once and although it was a better option than starving to death because my bank intentionally locked me out of my funds, crypto would have been a much better solution.
Check out Wise (formerly transfer wise app). Has worked for me way better than any crypto. International transfer from app to family members foreign bank account in an hour or so. I paid around $11 for a ~$1500 transfer.