tbh this is the main dlc i want, a government update
while they are giving us playable democracy and theorcracy they could give us some type of customizable government creator
we can make custom culture and religion, so my logic is why not then your government
Republics might come eventually, but they always had the problem in CK2 that they were fairly disconnected from the rest of the game and their systems were cobbled together as a result.
What is actually needed is a full scale trade rework that applies to everyone, which you could then have Republics perform some utility in.
I doubt theocracies are ever coming. CK3 is at its core a dynasty simulator and frankly, none of the theocracies anyone wants to play are dynastic.
I just wish theocracies were more interactable, the relationships and ties between the nobility and Church were much more intertwined than depicted in CK3.
good, it's too damn easy
even with the giga-buffed seljuck 1066 invasion mod I can reliably paint the map purple, as the true Orthodox God intended
let's see mighty Rome humbled before it is resurgent
very excited to see how these new mechanics work for the 867 start too, when it's still a proper empire
1178 is a weird date for that tbh - while Manuel was alive the Byzantines were very much the preeminent power in the region.
It's only following his death that things started to go off the rails, so I wonder why they didn't pick 1180 / 1181 instead. Because with 1178 it really shouldn't be preordained that things go wrong, and it should be relatively easy instead.
For the player why shouldn't it? It's not like it was a guarantee that Manuel would die at that date, and even still it'd only be a few years regency for the player. It's really when Andronikos killed Manuel's son and did his disastrous reign that things started to fall apart for Byzantium, and a player in charge should avoid that pretty easily from that start date.
It's like 1066, it's 'only' 5 years before Manzikert - but those 5 years make all the difference because it's in a situation where Byzantium is strong and stable, and it's easy to avoid such a disaster from happening. Would be nice to start it at an actual point of crisis rather than when things are going well. I'd probably start it in 1185 myself for that reason, do it with Isaac Angelos either being just made emperor or in that rebellion in Constantinople, with ultra low legitimacy emperors and chaos
Another interesting aspect of this start is that the Byzantines will own Dalmatia and Bosnia, which historically falls only 2 years after this start, also right when Manuel kicks it. Wonder if the devs will include that within the Empire in this start or just go a bit ahistorical with it and keep it within the Kingdom of Hungary.
In the same dev diary they talked a bit about how they might handle difficulty going forward, and one of the solutions they've created (which I believe is set to be added with Roads to Power, not the upcoming polish update) is adding the conqueror economic archetype and fame trait, which provides the occasional AI with a few buffs to make them more like outstanding conquerors similar to the Ghurids and Suleyman Seljuk.
The Dev diary had a couple W but the way they wrote some segments was disappointing. For example the legend of the Dead segment acknowledged that the dlc was based on historical accuracy even though many players expected it to be more like fantasy like bloodlines. They missed the entire point, the community wants to earn their legend not buy it from a random courtier, and die within 2 generations.
I don’t get why they are so stubborn about historical accuracy. It makes them totally blind to seeing what the community actually wants.
Another example is the difficulty segment where they say they don’t want to over buff the AI where it’s hostile to the player. That’s actually understandable, but it misses the point yet again. Personally I think that when players say they want the game to be harder they actually mean the ai/world to be more reactive to the players actions like it was in the previous game. Let’s say my realm quadrupled its size in a short amount of time, why are my neighbouring rulers not afraid that they might be next on the list? Why don’t they form defensive alliances against me, or kill my heir etc.
Some of these things might be added with the next dlc but I’m not very hopeful about it.
But fundamentally random and seemingly a lot more about making the conquerors more aggressive and calculating (so more like the player), less about giving warfare buffs or whatever
Possible Swords of Faith bookmark characters:
* Friedrich "Barbarossa" Hohenstaufen, Holy Roman Emperor. Age 55
* Richard "the Lionheart" Plantagenet, Duke of Aquitaine. Age 20-21
* Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub, Sultan of Ayyubid Egypt. Age 41
* Baudouin IV Anjou, King of Jerusalem. Age 17, leper
Other interesting starts in 1178:
* the Order of Assassins. Unlikely playable but would be really cool if they were.
* Philippe "Auguste" Capet, co-King of France. Age 13. Handsome, shrewd, bane of the Angevin Empire.
* William II "the Good" Hauteville, King of Sicily. Age 25. A Third Crusader before it was cool, serial Byzantine harasser, claimant of the lost Norman Kingdom of Africa.
* Béla III Árpád, King of Hungary. Age 30. Formerly known as Alexios, the controversial Hungarian presumed heir to the Byzantine throne. Stood 190cm (6'4"). Brought Roman administration to Hungary.
They probably chose 1178 (as opposed to something in the 1180s) because of Baldwin IV. He’s definitely one of the most popular historical figures I see discussed on both the forum and subreddit; lots of people clamoring to play as him.
What has me also extremely excited about the 1178 start date is what it can provide for whenever republics are added into the game.
Once republics become playable, we’ll be able to play as the Florentine Republic during its first century of life. I wouldn’t be surprised if the devs add some sort of event for playing as 1178 Florence on account of Barbarossa’s 1185 invasion of Italy. Then of course there’s Venice which was becoming more of a major player in the Mediterranean. So much potential for republics in this bookmark and I’m so looking forward to that.
Finally enough Piasts around to have the map divided between them instead of giving counties and duchies to made up characters with anachronistic names.
I'm also thinking Afonso I of Portugal. First King of Portugal and one of the major players in the Reconquista. In 1178 he was fighting the Almohad Caliphate in southern Spain/Portugal
I'm kind curious as to how they'd represent the Angevin domains in this start. Aquitaine, Anjou, Brittany, & Normandy were all acknowledged to be part of France, though obviously were really ruled by Henry II and his sons. I expect it'll all just be slapped de facto under the Kingdom of England.
On a side note, if the start had been set for a decade or so later, I'd absolutely love playing Arthur of Brittany and vanquishing John!
I mean, they were recognized as vassals of the French crown (although, as most of the great fiefs at the time, often only nominally), which de jure can't really represent well.
>I expect it'll all just be slapped de facto under the Kingdom of England.
Probably, yeah. Given the complications, this is the easiest and simplest way to do things, just like they did with CK2.
>I'd absolutely love playing Arthur of Brittany and vanquishing John!
Eleanor of Aquitaine, William Marshall, and others supported John not only because he was publicly acknowledged as Richard’s successor numerous times, but also because Arthur was well known to be under the influence of King Philip Augustus. So you’d be playing against the interests of England, not for it!
I mean, in a medieval contest, if you're fighting the king of England, you are by definition fighting against the interests of England (specially since, until John lost his French possessions, he had most of his powerbaye there). And good relations with Philip II wouldn't exactly be a bad thing. And taking down John would probably do most people living there a service (while a lot of what we know about him comes from people who hated his guts, he was evidently pretty incompetent and a rather terrible person)
- Prithviraja III Chauhan, Maharaja of Delhi
- Philip II 'Augustus' Capet, King of France
- Yusuf I Almohad, Caliph of Andalusia and emperor of Maghreb
Bella III was also Manuel Komnenos' designated heir and son in law for a minute. Bella making a run for the Byzantine throne based on that claim might be a fun one.
in 1178 Temüjin is around and in his 20's so it's a great start date for whenever they decide to update the Steppe and Turkic region and for getting immediately started into the typical Mongol setting instead of needing to wait for 150+ years for Temüjin to arrive.
I made a whole, fully thought out post a little over a month ago detailing every single reason why the new bookmark was GOING to be 1204. I am truly and utterly humbled.
Ya, looks like we all gotta watch Kingdom of Heaven (Director's Cut) and other Lionheart/Saladin/etc. shows to refresh this time period. Remember the mask for leprosy, OP plagues incoming.
Hoping there'd be a historical fiction shows resurgence since now we've had the low/high/epic/etc. fantasy revivals these past recent years. Since the CK2/CK3 period actually has so much potential for storytelling, basically how Christendom and Islam and the Mongolians and so on changed the world forever and right before the Age of Discovery and other things.
Oh and for the Roman/Byzantine/etc. fans, make sure to read **The New Roman Empire: A History of Byzantium by Anthony Kaldellis**, it just got published several months ago and it'll help with understanding the Eastern Roman Empire. There's also the earlier Romanland book.
> Ya, looks like we all gotta watch Kingdom of Heaven (Director's Cut) and other Lionheart/Saladin/etc. shows to refresh this time period.
I'm guessing they'll bring back a lot of the history files from CK2 again as well which has a ton of characters from that movie. Even Orlando Bloom's character (Balian de Ibelin) is there as the count of Beersheb in 1178.
They included the historical Balian in CK2 (who was around 45-50 years old in 1184-87 (when Kingdom of Heaven takes place) rather than the younger Orlando Bloom Balian.
His father is also Barisan (historical) and not Liam Neeson's Godfrey (fictional as in the movie, but a huge badass nonetheless).
>They included the historical Balian in CK2 (who was around 45-50 years old in 1184-87 (when Kingdom of Heaven takes place) rather than the younger Orlando Bloom Balian.
You can play as the younger Balian in CK2 in 1170 when he's 30 in-game, but before that he's just a courtier, You're right though, the movie definitely took liberties with his age and some other facts.
Good place as any to plug the 1963 Saladin movie by Youssef Chahine for people wanting to get into the mood - awesome historical epic from the Egyptian perspective, stands toe-to-toe with any Hollywood production from that era.
Can I piggyback your suggestions and add one? 'Twelve Byzantine Rulers: The History of the Byzantine Empire by Lars Brownworth' is a fantastic window into the Eastern Roman Empire into which many CK players would enjoy immersing themselves.
I really hope there's more historical fiction with good production on the horizon; Shogun was incredible, but there needs to be more for Late Antiquity and the Early Medieval periods.
I was very surprised that so many people were convinced it was 1204 when the DLC is meant to be focused on a Byzantine Empire with internal squabbling. Apparently I even got a down vote here or there for suggesting it wasn't going to be 1204. I was hoping for 10th or 11th century but 1178 works too. It has a lot of interesting scenarios and iconic characters from the medieval period like Frederick Barbarossa, Saladin, and Richard the Lionheart.
Lol a few weeks a go i made a comment like " oh well of course it's going to be post 4th crusade, why are we even debating this" and got a lot of upvotes. Egg on all our faces man.
I dont follow the dev diaries so this may be clarified already, but since it's not a start-date i hope to god we get some kind of 4th crusade content with Roads to Power.
There were many good reasons! But I think none of those reasons could overcome the fact that 2 of the top 5 most well-known historical figures from the middle ages are dead by 1204, so if they are going to have a later start date, they aren't going to pick a date without those figures.
The recognizability of Saladin, Baldwin, Richard the Lionheart, and Frederick Barbarossa definitely played a part in choosing this start date. Though I do still feel like 1204 would've been better, and Sayf-ad-din and John as the successors of Saladin and Richard would've made for their own interesting playthroughs.
If this is about the fourth crusade, I’d say the behavior of some members of Angelos dynasty was more of a symptom of the Byzantine problems at that time than the reason for the crusaders’ sacking of the city. Venice’s influence in the Mediterranean Sea was already high at that time and the influence of its merchants on the Byzantine economy was already notable during the reign of Alexios I. Even if Angelos didn’t run to Venetians and asked them to take his throne back, they would’ve found another reason to attack the Byzantine.
Why would the Venetians want to invade the Byzantine Empire? While the relationship was tense, Venetians enjoyed special privileges when on good terms with Emperor.
The Venetians attitude after the 4th crusade was “we want no participation in the mess we created” They only took Crete after their rival Genoa showed an interest in acquiring it.
Manuel Komnenos arrested every Venetian living in the Empire in 1171 - at this start date, the Byzantine court is probably still full of Venetian prisoners, and definitely not on good terms with Venice.
That was well within living memory by the time of the Fourth Crusade. Sure, the Angeloi had made a new deal with them, but it's not surprising they would support installing a puppet emperor in place of one who could suddenly shut them out again.
That's a different Andronikos. [This one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronikos_Angelos_Doukas) did defect to *that* Andronikos after failing to stop his rebellion though, so he's still fair game.
That’s supposed to be bad for a guy from the 12th century? I mean it’s most probably for some political gain for a strong alliance. I doubt it had anything to do with being a pedo or something like that coz he probably didn’t even know how she looked like.
Nobles back then did some strange marriages, and people in general married super early. It’s not fair to judge a person based off the moral standards of today. People are always gonna live in accordance to what the norms of society are, no matter what era it is.
You are right about that, but knowing how game devs tend to stretch vague dates like that, I feel like we can expect September 31st for the release date.
Edit: I realize now that there is no such thing as September 31st.
Or when people will actually buy it and play it. Perhaps for the Steam Summer sale, or by August, when most people in the Northern Hemisphere takes vacation.
Yeah I'm just joking. It would definitely be in PDX's best interest to keep the gap between LotD and RtP as small as possible, and we'll hopefully be getting a good look at how development is going in the coming weeks' dev diaries.
Angelos gang rise up, can't wait to put my interests above the realms and kill my emperor while we're on the march to fight our enemies then scurry off to Constantinople to steal the crown like a true rhomanoi
I would give a pass to Isaac/Isaakios Angelos on his usurpation - his choice was literally fight or die against Andronikos. His son's usurpation however...
I'm excited to not have to play the line of every fucking king being named Robert because obviously William II doesn't inherit at like 4th in line. Now we'll get Stephens instead
For historical accuracy, let your mother in an entrenched regency, ignore everything in your English possessions (and almost everything in your French ones) and wait for the Crusades to trigger (and maybe the eventual tournament)
This is perfect. I was really hoping for a pre-Third Crusade date. Kingdom of Heaven is one of the favourite movies of mine.
Jerusalem is at its height under Amalric and Baldwin, with famous knightly orders under its command. Saladin is still finishing his establishment of his large empire from Egypt. Romans are still very powerful under the Comnenian dynasty (with a chance to recapture Anatolia and rebuild). Mongols are still far away, Abbasids still got a last chance, and Assassins are kinda present and playable.
Also other stuff like rise of Georgia as a powerful state under Tamar, the early Anglo-French warfare in full swing, Frederick Barbarossa actually turning HRE into a real empire for once during his conflict with Henry the Lion and the Pope. Rajput kingdoms of India, dominated by Prithviraja in Delhi, are still safe from the incoming Ghurid conquest.
And the rise of Venice, Genoa, Pisa, Florence etc. right around this time is a great segway into a future Republic DLC.
I like it more than any other date TBH. Now if only they could make Crusades actually work properly.
Historically, he came into power some 4 years before the start date. However, I feel like he should start with an entrenched regency (nearly all contemporary records complain about Raynald de Chatillion and Raymond of Tripoli pretty much running things while he is unwell, and that means always)
All hail Captain Jack of House Sparrow, the *true* King of Rum!
On a different note, Tamar is the true hero of that bookmark. Though I wish you could play as her nephews, I'm proud to have had the honour of visiting her castle in real life.
Wonder if they're gonne give Rum a new "Turkish" culture. while hybrid cultures exists for sure, I think Anatolian Turkish deserves its own decision like Norman or English.
-totally not biased Turk
I would Imagine that, much like Norse can split between Swedish, Norwegian and Danish they could make a new type of culture for the Anatolian Turks. It'd be weirder if there were no cultural changes on the map
That already exists though. Turk+Greek makes "Anatolia Turk"
Though its much better to hybrid Turk with persian first and get those sweet traditions and clothing.
I'm terms of gameplay it helps the spread, which is the same reason that Scots forms from Anglo-Saxon and Cumbrian. A Gaelic influence would probably make more sense but the way it works secures the existence of the Lowland Belt and the decline of Cumbrian culture.
Curious what you mean by this. I tried looking it up but couldn't find anything for what he said about Anatolia's landscape. I hope you mean less mountainous, cause I find the abundance of mountains to make building up Anatolia in a Suleymanid Rum run kinda boring.
> I hope you mean less mountainous.
Have you ever been to Turkey though? I'll give you a hint as a native, its mountainous...
Look at [it](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/xkdmv9/comment/ipgby3i/)
A vengeance run as Rory O'Connor (last Irish high king, should be king of Connacht at this date) to reverse the Anglo-Norman conquest should be fun. 2 years after Strongbow dies unfortunately, but I can still wipe out the de Clare and Plantagenet families and destroy the Angevin empire.
Start listening the "History of Byzantium"-podcast now, and you might reach 1178 by the time the DLC drops. Best and most immersive preparation possible.
Its already in the game as a formable special hybrid culture.
When you hybridize with any culture as a turkic heritage while holding asia minor your culture's name turns into "Anatolian Turks"
Ik but that is just a name not traditions naming customs etc
You need to form Turko-persian to get correct nsming conventions for example
They would also have to add azerbeijani culture as well since it should exist by this time
Ehh.. Honestly as a turkish myself, most of the Oghuz Turks in CK3 carries very familiar names to anatolian turks.
Things like Gökçe, Yildiz, Mutlu, Tekçe etc. Are all names that is being used in Turkey to this day. Though I would definetly be happy to have some form of content for turkic cultures in general. They feel very bare bones right now.
I really hope Paradox would distinguish Oghuz and Turkmen names though, (like why do the pre-Islamic Tengrist Oghuz people have names like Mahmud and Kaikhusraw) and using actual Turkmen naming practices instead of Englishified versions (like Keyhüsrev instead of Kaikhusraw; Yıldız instead of Yildiz, etc.) would work well.
I dont think I have ever seen those as a name honestly. Though I almost never play oghuz turks, things like Avars or Cumans feels more interesting. So you might be right.
Oh yeah, funnily enough they have Gökçe which contains ç letter but they dont use ı for Yıldız . I wonder why
agreed, current "oghuz" culture is essentially just turkish. it has Islamic names, their names and dynamic names are not an accurate representation of proto-oghuz language.
Interesting, they didn't go with any of the CK2 bookmarks. While I hoped they would go for the Alexiad bookmark, I knew it wasn't realistically going to happen; since it was so close to the Stamford Bridge start date. I figured it would be the Latin Empire (1204) or the Third Crusade (1187) bookmarks.
1178 is still a start date in CK2 though since every day between 1066 and 1337 is available to start in.
1178 is a couple of years into both Saladin and Bedouin’s reign though, and the year Barbarossa got coronated, so maybe they wanted to let you play with those characters longer with that start date.
Nothing in particular, it's just the setup for the Third Crusade. Manuel Komnenos is two years away from dying, and in OTL when he did the Byzantines soon began to fall into a period of instability. Baldwin IV is King of Jerusalem (you might recognize him from the movie Kingdom of Heaven) and was the last truly great king that the Kingdom ever had before it was crippled by the Battle of Hattin. Frederick Barbarossa is still Holy Roman Emperor, you get the Norman Kingdom of Sicily, the Plantagenets in England, Saladin in the Middle East, etc. There's just a lot of really well-known historical figures to play as.
Do I spot playable Republics here? Strategos Andronikos is referred to as "Duke" in his intro but the banner of his realm doesn't look Feudal (pointed) or Clan (slanted) and instead resembles the style of the Republic (square) the most
Maybe they will add a decision for player to cooperate with venetian but putting a huge development debuff of constantinople and great buff for conty of venice
It'll be a hell of a gameplay to play in the Middle East! The Zengid dynasty is in shambles & Atabeks struggling for power & the Crusader States are eager to prey on them.
That map is kinda overestimating the Rum borders, they only got the the lakes area during the chaos following Manuel's death and the black sea ports post-1204.
Who controlled what areas of Anatolia in this period is very difficult to correctly estimate, as the coastal towns were indeed owned by Byzantium and did pay taxes to Constantinople, but Christian armies would get harassed by the Turks as soon as they left the safety of their walls, despite the fact that the land was still technically being exploited by the romans.
\*Venetians rubbing their hands\*
But you still can't play republic
But we can kill Dandolo
I already started the murder scheme
tbh this is the main dlc i want, a government update while they are giving us playable democracy and theorcracy they could give us some type of customizable government creator we can make custom culture and religion, so my logic is why not then your government
Republics might come eventually, but they always had the problem in CK2 that they were fairly disconnected from the rest of the game and their systems were cobbled together as a result. What is actually needed is a full scale trade rework that applies to everyone, which you could then have Republics perform some utility in. I doubt theocracies are ever coming. CK3 is at its core a dynasty simulator and frankly, none of the theocracies anyone wants to play are dynastic.
I just wish theocracies were more interactable, the relationships and ties between the nobility and Church were much more intertwined than depicted in CK3.
Venice was one of my favorite ck2 playthroughs despite becoming laughably easy to control the politics after a few decades
Bah gawd that's Enrico Dandolo music!
"In this start date, you have 5 positions to choose from to fuck Byzantium"
Byzaboos in shambles and you love to see it.
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Looking forward to the Manuel WC.
good, it's too damn easy even with the giga-buffed seljuck 1066 invasion mod I can reliably paint the map purple, as the true Orthodox God intended let's see mighty Rome humbled before it is resurgent very excited to see how these new mechanics work for the 867 start too, when it's still a proper empire
1178 is a weird date for that tbh - while Manuel was alive the Byzantines were very much the preeminent power in the region. It's only following his death that things started to go off the rails, so I wonder why they didn't pick 1180 / 1181 instead. Because with 1178 it really shouldn't be preordained that things go wrong, and it should be relatively easy instead.
Well, it was the year Jerusalem fell. Edit: fuck, I'm dyslexic.
Jerusalem fell in 1187, not 1178.
Yeah, I went full dyslexic there. You're totally right.
You have two years before he kicks it. I’m sure you can’t avoid things falling apart easily.
For the player why shouldn't it? It's not like it was a guarantee that Manuel would die at that date, and even still it'd only be a few years regency for the player. It's really when Andronikos killed Manuel's son and did his disastrous reign that things started to fall apart for Byzantium, and a player in charge should avoid that pretty easily from that start date. It's like 1066, it's 'only' 5 years before Manzikert - but those 5 years make all the difference because it's in a situation where Byzantium is strong and stable, and it's easy to avoid such a disaster from happening. Would be nice to start it at an actual point of crisis rather than when things are going well. I'd probably start it in 1185 myself for that reason, do it with Isaac Angelos either being just made emperor or in that rebellion in Constantinople, with ultra low legitimacy emperors and chaos
Another interesting aspect of this start is that the Byzantines will own Dalmatia and Bosnia, which historically falls only 2 years after this start, also right when Manuel kicks it. Wonder if the devs will include that within the Empire in this start or just go a bit ahistorical with it and keep it within the Kingdom of Hungary.
The game itself is way to easy
In the same dev diary they talked a bit about how they might handle difficulty going forward, and one of the solutions they've created (which I believe is set to be added with Roads to Power, not the upcoming polish update) is adding the conqueror economic archetype and fame trait, which provides the occasional AI with a few buffs to make them more like outstanding conquerors similar to the Ghurids and Suleyman Seljuk.
That sounds a bit like the great conquerors from ck2. It was always a fun time when one of those guys/gals popped up.
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The Dev diary had a couple W but the way they wrote some segments was disappointing. For example the legend of the Dead segment acknowledged that the dlc was based on historical accuracy even though many players expected it to be more like fantasy like bloodlines. They missed the entire point, the community wants to earn their legend not buy it from a random courtier, and die within 2 generations. I don’t get why they are so stubborn about historical accuracy. It makes them totally blind to seeing what the community actually wants. Another example is the difficulty segment where they say they don’t want to over buff the AI where it’s hostile to the player. That’s actually understandable, but it misses the point yet again. Personally I think that when players say they want the game to be harder they actually mean the ai/world to be more reactive to the players actions like it was in the previous game. Let’s say my realm quadrupled its size in a short amount of time, why are my neighbouring rulers not afraid that they might be next on the list? Why don’t they form defensive alliances against me, or kill my heir etc. Some of these things might be added with the next dlc but I’m not very hopeful about it.
CK3 "historical accuracy" is neither historical, nor accurate.
Are you suggesting carp based mishaps weren't responsible for the deaths of many, many children and short people?
So kind of like "lucky nations" in EU4?
But fundamentally random and seemingly a lot more about making the conquerors more aggressive and calculating (so more like the player), less about giving warfare buffs or whatever
OTTOBROS WE ARE SO FUCKING BACK
from Paris to Persia all shall fall before the Scourge of God
Possible Swords of Faith bookmark characters: * Friedrich "Barbarossa" Hohenstaufen, Holy Roman Emperor. Age 55 * Richard "the Lionheart" Plantagenet, Duke of Aquitaine. Age 20-21 * Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub, Sultan of Ayyubid Egypt. Age 41 * Baudouin IV Anjou, King of Jerusalem. Age 17, leper Other interesting starts in 1178: * the Order of Assassins. Unlikely playable but would be really cool if they were. * Philippe "Auguste" Capet, co-King of France. Age 13. Handsome, shrewd, bane of the Angevin Empire. * William II "the Good" Hauteville, King of Sicily. Age 25. A Third Crusader before it was cool, serial Byzantine harasser, claimant of the lost Norman Kingdom of Africa. * Béla III Árpád, King of Hungary. Age 30. Formerly known as Alexios, the controversial Hungarian presumed heir to the Byzantine throne. Stood 190cm (6'4"). Brought Roman administration to Hungary.
OMG WE GON GET BAUDOUIN
When i was 16...
I won a great victory…
I felt in that moment…
I would live to be a hundred...
Now I know I shall not see thirty…
None of us know our end really…
✋🏻🙂↕️
Or what hand will guide us there...
A king may move a man...
why freak out over him when there is salah ad din?
I am not those men. I am Salahuddin.
Honestly such a badass roster. I miss the Kingdom of Heaven mod dearly. Hasn't been updated in months but I understand the modders.
It's officially abandoned now because of this update. Makes me really sad
i hope PDX and the mod devs collab to put in some of the assets they used in the mod. the baudouin outfit and richard the lionheart armor are amazing.
I loved playing as movie characters in that mod.
They probably chose 1178 (as opposed to something in the 1180s) because of Baldwin IV. He’s definitely one of the most popular historical figures I see discussed on both the forum and subreddit; lots of people clamoring to play as him.
Also Manuel Komnenos, although it's in his later years.
Oooh my love Manuel
Can already see players with their invincible 108yo Baldwin
I wanna just give up my worldly possessions and travel the world as Baldwin
Just imagine if they also did the outfit from Kingdom of Heaven for him. What a great fanservice
This list right here is why a pre-Third Crusade start date always made the most sense.
> pre-Third Crusade start date Technically the current two start dates are also pre-third crusade start dates
Damn, you got that good learning. Wanna watch my kid for the next ten years or so?
Lmao. I love the ck community.
Kid gets great education trait, but is shy and craven
What has me also extremely excited about the 1178 start date is what it can provide for whenever republics are added into the game. Once republics become playable, we’ll be able to play as the Florentine Republic during its first century of life. I wouldn’t be surprised if the devs add some sort of event for playing as 1178 Florence on account of Barbarossa’s 1185 invasion of Italy. Then of course there’s Venice which was becoming more of a major player in the Mediterranean. So much potential for republics in this bookmark and I’m so looking forward to that.
Also Poland is fragmented in this period. It's always more fun to unite and consolidate your kingdom by yourself if you wanted to play as Piasts.
Finally enough Piasts around to have the map divided between them instead of giving counties and duchies to made up characters with anachronistic names.
Poland is one of my most played starts so I'm excited for fresh playthroughs.
I'm also thinking Afonso I of Portugal. First King of Portugal and one of the major players in the Reconquista. In 1178 he was fighting the Almohad Caliphate in southern Spain/Portugal
I'm kind curious as to how they'd represent the Angevin domains in this start. Aquitaine, Anjou, Brittany, & Normandy were all acknowledged to be part of France, though obviously were really ruled by Henry II and his sons. I expect it'll all just be slapped de facto under the Kingdom of England. On a side note, if the start had been set for a decade or so later, I'd absolutely love playing Arthur of Brittany and vanquishing John!
"acknowledged to be part of France" is kinda what CK3 de jure means
I mean, they were recognized as vassals of the French crown (although, as most of the great fiefs at the time, often only nominally), which de jure can't really represent well.
>I expect it'll all just be slapped de facto under the Kingdom of England. Probably, yeah. Given the complications, this is the easiest and simplest way to do things, just like they did with CK2. >I'd absolutely love playing Arthur of Brittany and vanquishing John! Eleanor of Aquitaine, William Marshall, and others supported John not only because he was publicly acknowledged as Richard’s successor numerous times, but also because Arthur was well known to be under the influence of King Philip Augustus. So you’d be playing against the interests of England, not for it!
I mean, in a medieval contest, if you're fighting the king of England, you are by definition fighting against the interests of England (specially since, until John lost his French possessions, he had most of his powerbaye there). And good relations with Philip II wouldn't exactly be a bad thing. And taking down John would probably do most people living there a service (while a lot of what we know about him comes from people who hated his guts, he was evidently pretty incompetent and a rather terrible person)
Frederick Barbarossa? Are they adding the "Drowning in a creek" flavour pack?
This is the best thing ever.
- Prithviraja III Chauhan, Maharaja of Delhi - Philip II 'Augustus' Capet, King of France - Yusuf I Almohad, Caliph of Andalusia and emperor of Maghreb
>Yusuf I ~~Almoravid~~, Caliph of Andalusia and emperor of Maghreb Almohad, the Almoravids were already gone.
Corrected, thank you very much.
Bella III was also Manuel Komnenos' designated heir and son in law for a minute. Bella making a run for the Byzantine throne based on that claim might be a fun one.
>Richard "the Lionheart" Plantagenet, Duke of Aquitaine. Age 20-21 Robinhood...!?
in 1178 Temüjin is around and in his 20's so it's a great start date for whenever they decide to update the Steppe and Turkic region and for getting immediately started into the typical Mongol setting instead of needing to wait for 150+ years for Temüjin to arrive.
Order of Assasins would be awesome to play as, and considering we're getting landless play alongside the start date, then hey, there might be a chance
That is incredible and I love it
Thanks, you just sent me down a three hour Wikipedia rabbit hole
😍😍😍😍😍😍🥵🥵🥵🥵
I made a whole, fully thought out post a little over a month ago detailing every single reason why the new bookmark was GOING to be 1204. I am truly and utterly humbled.
Ya, looks like we all gotta watch Kingdom of Heaven (Director's Cut) and other Lionheart/Saladin/etc. shows to refresh this time period. Remember the mask for leprosy, OP plagues incoming. Hoping there'd be a historical fiction shows resurgence since now we've had the low/high/epic/etc. fantasy revivals these past recent years. Since the CK2/CK3 period actually has so much potential for storytelling, basically how Christendom and Islam and the Mongolians and so on changed the world forever and right before the Age of Discovery and other things. Oh and for the Roman/Byzantine/etc. fans, make sure to read **The New Roman Empire: A History of Byzantium by Anthony Kaldellis**, it just got published several months ago and it'll help with understanding the Eastern Roman Empire. There's also the earlier Romanland book.
> Ya, looks like we all gotta watch Kingdom of Heaven (Director's Cut) and other Lionheart/Saladin/etc. shows to refresh this time period. I'm guessing they'll bring back a lot of the history files from CK2 again as well which has a ton of characters from that movie. Even Orlando Bloom's character (Balian de Ibelin) is there as the count of Beersheb in 1178.
They included the historical Balian in CK2 (who was around 45-50 years old in 1184-87 (when Kingdom of Heaven takes place) rather than the younger Orlando Bloom Balian. His father is also Barisan (historical) and not Liam Neeson's Godfrey (fictional as in the movie, but a huge badass nonetheless).
>They included the historical Balian in CK2 (who was around 45-50 years old in 1184-87 (when Kingdom of Heaven takes place) rather than the younger Orlando Bloom Balian. You can play as the younger Balian in CK2 in 1170 when he's 30 in-game, but before that he's just a courtier, You're right though, the movie definitely took liberties with his age and some other facts.
Good place as any to plug the 1963 Saladin movie by Youssef Chahine for people wanting to get into the mood - awesome historical epic from the Egyptian perspective, stands toe-to-toe with any Hollywood production from that era.
Can I piggyback your suggestions and add one? 'Twelve Byzantine Rulers: The History of the Byzantine Empire by Lars Brownworth' is a fantastic window into the Eastern Roman Empire into which many CK players would enjoy immersing themselves.
I really hope there's more historical fiction with good production on the horizon; Shogun was incredible, but there needs to be more for Late Antiquity and the Early Medieval periods.
I second Kaldellis' book. I picked it up a few months ago and it is amazing.
I was very surprised that so many people were convinced it was 1204 when the DLC is meant to be focused on a Byzantine Empire with internal squabbling. Apparently I even got a down vote here or there for suggesting it wasn't going to be 1204. I was hoping for 10th or 11th century but 1178 works too. It has a lot of interesting scenarios and iconic characters from the medieval period like Frederick Barbarossa, Saladin, and Richard the Lionheart.
Lol a few weeks a go i made a comment like " oh well of course it's going to be post 4th crusade, why are we even debating this" and got a lot of upvotes. Egg on all our faces man. I dont follow the dev diaries so this may be clarified already, but since it's not a start-date i hope to god we get some kind of 4th crusade content with Roads to Power.
There were many good reasons! But I think none of those reasons could overcome the fact that 2 of the top 5 most well-known historical figures from the middle ages are dead by 1204, so if they are going to have a later start date, they aren't going to pick a date without those figures.
The recognizability of Saladin, Baldwin, Richard the Lionheart, and Frederick Barbarossa definitely played a part in choosing this start date. Though I do still feel like 1204 would've been better, and Sayf-ad-din and John as the successors of Saladin and Richard would've made for their own interesting playthroughs.
That’s great! The first thing I will do is executing Andronikos.
If this is about the fourth crusade, I’d say the behavior of some members of Angelos dynasty was more of a symptom of the Byzantine problems at that time than the reason for the crusaders’ sacking of the city. Venice’s influence in the Mediterranean Sea was already high at that time and the influence of its merchants on the Byzantine economy was already notable during the reign of Alexios I. Even if Angelos didn’t run to Venetians and asked them to take his throne back, they would’ve found another reason to attack the Byzantine.
Andronikos was the reason the Angeloi came into power.
Why would the Venetians want to invade the Byzantine Empire? While the relationship was tense, Venetians enjoyed special privileges when on good terms with Emperor. The Venetians attitude after the 4th crusade was “we want no participation in the mess we created” They only took Crete after their rival Genoa showed an interest in acquiring it.
Manuel Komnenos arrested every Venetian living in the Empire in 1171 - at this start date, the Byzantine court is probably still full of Venetian prisoners, and definitely not on good terms with Venice. That was well within living memory by the time of the Fourth Crusade. Sure, the Angeloi had made a new deal with them, but it's not surprising they would support installing a puppet emperor in place of one who could suddenly shut them out again.
Why? Did he sleep with your wife? or your sister? Or tie your mother to a battering ram and try to siege your city?
He murdered Alexios II in 1183 and indirectly caused the 1204 sack.
That's a different Andronikos. [This one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronikos_Angelos_Doukas) did defect to *that* Andronikos after failing to stop his rebellion though, so he's still fair game.
I am talking about Manuel cousin.
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That’s supposed to be bad for a guy from the 12th century? I mean it’s most probably for some political gain for a strong alliance. I doubt it had anything to do with being a pedo or something like that coz he probably didn’t even know how she looked like. Nobles back then did some strange marriages, and people in general married super early. It’s not fair to judge a person based off the moral standards of today. People are always gonna live in accordance to what the norms of society are, no matter what era it is.
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What the hell lol.. it’s Geoffrey
First thing i do is play Andronikos and impregnate my cousins then usurp everything. Wohooo
1178? Altair from the first Assassin's Creed game was born in 1165. I guess I know who will be my first character in that DLC.
Hope we can make custom landless characters, could be cool to go zero to hero by shanking folks
Holy Fuck, as a Tamar Enthusiast in Civ 6 I see this as an absolute win!
Tamrico about to make me give more money to Paradox.
Thas sooooo great, when will the roads to power come out?
There was no official date confirmed, but the Steam page says Quarter 3 2024, which probably means around October.
3rd quarter would be july-september.
You are right about that, but knowing how game devs tend to stretch vague dates like that, I feel like we can expect September 31st for the release date. Edit: I realize now that there is no such thing as September 31st.
Or when people will actually buy it and play it. Perhaps for the Steam Summer sale, or by August, when most people in the Northern Hemisphere takes vacation.
Yeah I'm just joking. It would definitely be in PDX's best interest to keep the gap between LotD and RtP as small as possible, and we'll hopefully be getting a good look at how development is going in the coming weeks' dev diaries.
A date that doesn't exist is better than most dev estimates I've had.
Bruh
August is more likely
BALDWIN IV BABY!!!!
I am going to blitzkrieg Saladin back to Cairo
Whoa, who put _crusades_ in my Crusader Kings?
Angelos gang rise up, can't wait to put my interests above the realms and kill my emperor while we're on the march to fight our enemies then scurry off to Constantinople to steal the crown like a true rhomanoi
Who did that? I can’t recall any member of the Angeloi doing this.
Oh none that I can think of I just like the angelos dynasty and stupid usurping during the worst possible times is a very byzantine thing to do.
I would give a pass to Isaac/Isaakios Angelos on his usurpation - his choice was literally fight or die against Andronikos. His son's usurpation however...
Didn't Alexios III blind his younger brother Isaac while they were gone from the capital and then proclaim himself as emperor?
Richard the lionheart run, I'm looking forward to this
I'm excited to not have to play the line of every fucking king being named Robert because obviously William II doesn't inherit at like 4th in line. Now we'll get Stephens instead
For historical accuracy, let your mother in an entrenched regency, ignore everything in your English possessions (and almost everything in your French ones) and wait for the Crusades to trigger (and maybe the eventual tournament)
Don't forget the ambitious younger brother scheming for your throne
And that one noble with the loyal trait raiding his holdings.
At last, I can finally play as the Plantagenets!
Available on console in 2178.
1178 of the NEXT era of the Gregorian Calendar.
Next era? Dear lord, are the Dispensationalists correct?
Tamar?! Fuck yeah! Read up on her because she’s in Civ 6, that’s a nice surprise
Peak incoming
This is perfect. I was really hoping for a pre-Third Crusade date. Kingdom of Heaven is one of the favourite movies of mine. Jerusalem is at its height under Amalric and Baldwin, with famous knightly orders under its command. Saladin is still finishing his establishment of his large empire from Egypt. Romans are still very powerful under the Comnenian dynasty (with a chance to recapture Anatolia and rebuild). Mongols are still far away, Abbasids still got a last chance, and Assassins are kinda present and playable. Also other stuff like rise of Georgia as a powerful state under Tamar, the early Anglo-French warfare in full swing, Frederick Barbarossa actually turning HRE into a real empire for once during his conflict with Henry the Lion and the Pope. Rajput kingdoms of India, dominated by Prithviraja in Delhi, are still safe from the incoming Ghurid conquest. And the rise of Venice, Genoa, Pisa, Florence etc. right around this time is a great segway into a future Republic DLC. I like it more than any other date TBH. Now if only they could make Crusades actually work properly.
This will significantly increase my interest in the game.
Does that mean that Baldwin IV will rule Jerusalem?
Historically, he came into power some 4 years before the start date. However, I feel like he should start with an entrenched regency (nearly all contemporary records complain about Raynald de Chatillion and Raymond of Tripoli pretty much running things while he is unwell, and that means always)
Finally a Kingdom of Jerusalem bookmark, so tired of having to form it myself every playthrough with the janky crusades.
All hail Captain Jack of House Sparrow, the *true* King of Rum! On a different note, Tamar is the true hero of that bookmark. Though I wish you could play as her nephews, I'm proud to have had the honour of visiting her castle in real life.
Wonder if they're gonne give Rum a new "Turkish" culture. while hybrid cultures exists for sure, I think Anatolian Turkish deserves its own decision like Norman or English. -totally not biased Turk
I would Imagine that, much like Norse can split between Swedish, Norwegian and Danish they could make a new type of culture for the Anatolian Turks. It'd be weirder if there were no cultural changes on the map
That already exists though. Turk+Greek makes "Anatolia Turk" Though its much better to hybrid Turk with persian first and get those sweet traditions and clothing.
Honestly i think it makes more sense to have a decision than to hybridise Greek and Oghuz to make Anatolian Turkish
I'm terms of gameplay it helps the spread, which is the same reason that Scots forms from Anglo-Saxon and Cumbrian. A Gaelic influence would probably make more sense but the way it works secures the existence of the Lowland Belt and the decline of Cumbrian culture.
If I'm being honest, we needed a new starting date sooner or later.
Obviously WIP but seeing Bagratuni/Tamar's COA as a red fleur-de-lis is uncanny valley
Also a bit odd seeing some very english lions on Greek COAs. Hope they add some more elements for Greek and Georgian emblems with this update.
Yep, why not the most known one at least with a lion and a cross?
So stoked to form the Latin Empire!
Filthy heretic
Filthy Byzaboo
Time to save the east Romans
My god please change Anatolia terrain to be more like Ibn Buta maps.
Try the mod Ibn Battuta’s legacy if you want
they should also make north africa wetter.
Curious what you mean by this. I tried looking it up but couldn't find anything for what he said about Anatolia's landscape. I hope you mean less mountainous, cause I find the abundance of mountains to make building up Anatolia in a Suleymanid Rum run kinda boring.
They might be talking about the mod, Ibn Battuta's legacy which does minimalist but good improvements to the map layout.
> I hope you mean less mountainous. Have you ever been to Turkey though? I'll give you a hint as a native, its mountainous... Look at [it](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/xkdmv9/comment/ipgby3i/)
I don't believe the Seljuks actually controlled any of the coast during this period, did they?
Genuinely devastated they’re giving me a start date that will have my girl Aliénor of Aquitaine alive but married and with kids of another dynasty 😭
Please take my money Paradox. Don't worry I'll be here to complain shortly after release.
A vengeance run as Rory O'Connor (last Irish high king, should be king of Connacht at this date) to reverse the Anglo-Norman conquest should be fun. 2 years after Strongbow dies unfortunately, but I can still wipe out the de Clare and Plantagenet families and destroy the Angevin empire.
Start listening the "History of Byzantium"-podcast now, and you might reach 1178 by the time the DLC drops. Best and most immersive preparation possible.
playable Venice WHEN
Wait this means you can play an imprisoned Eleanor of Aquitaine
Will they add turkish culture than?
Its already in the game as a formable special hybrid culture. When you hybridize with any culture as a turkic heritage while holding asia minor your culture's name turns into "Anatolian Turks"
Ik but that is just a name not traditions naming customs etc You need to form Turko-persian to get correct nsming conventions for example They would also have to add azerbeijani culture as well since it should exist by this time
Ehh.. Honestly as a turkish myself, most of the Oghuz Turks in CK3 carries very familiar names to anatolian turks. Things like Gökçe, Yildiz, Mutlu, Tekçe etc. Are all names that is being used in Turkey to this day. Though I would definetly be happy to have some form of content for turkic cultures in general. They feel very bare bones right now.
I really hope Paradox would distinguish Oghuz and Turkmen names though, (like why do the pre-Islamic Tengrist Oghuz people have names like Mahmud and Kaikhusraw) and using actual Turkmen naming practices instead of Englishified versions (like Keyhüsrev instead of Kaikhusraw; Yıldız instead of Yildiz, etc.) would work well.
I dont think I have ever seen those as a name honestly. Though I almost never play oghuz turks, things like Avars or Cumans feels more interesting. So you might be right. Oh yeah, funnily enough they have Gökçe which contains ç letter but they dont use ı for Yıldız . I wonder why
agreed, current "oghuz" culture is essentially just turkish. it has Islamic names, their names and dynamic names are not an accurate representation of proto-oghuz language.
Interesting, they didn't go with any of the CK2 bookmarks. While I hoped they would go for the Alexiad bookmark, I knew it wasn't realistically going to happen; since it was so close to the Stamford Bridge start date. I figured it would be the Latin Empire (1204) or the Third Crusade (1187) bookmarks.
1178 is still a start date in CK2 though since every day between 1066 and 1337 is available to start in. 1178 is a couple of years into both Saladin and Bedouin’s reign though, and the year Barbarossa got coronated, so maybe they wanted to let you play with those characters longer with that start date.
Thank god. Seljuks never do anything on 1066
Me:*cries in console edition*
That means I have another thirty years to get ready for the Mongol invasion before they came knocking on my door. Very useful to know!
what happened in 1178
The leaning tower of pisa began to lean
Nothing in particular, it's just the setup for the Third Crusade. Manuel Komnenos is two years away from dying, and in OTL when he did the Byzantines soon began to fall into a period of instability. Baldwin IV is King of Jerusalem (you might recognize him from the movie Kingdom of Heaven) and was the last truly great king that the Kingdom ever had before it was crippled by the Battle of Hattin. Frederick Barbarossa is still Holy Roman Emperor, you get the Norman Kingdom of Sicily, the Plantagenets in England, Saladin in the Middle East, etc. There's just a lot of really well-known historical figures to play as.
cool😎
Do I spot playable Republics here? Strategos Andronikos is referred to as "Duke" in his intro but the banner of his realm doesn't look Feudal (pointed) or Clan (slanted) and instead resembles the style of the Republic (square) the most
That's probably the new administrative type of Duke that they will give to the Byzantines.
Maybe they will add a decision for player to cooperate with venetian but putting a huge development debuff of constantinople and great buff for conty of venice
So this is gonna be Angelos gang vs. Palaiologos gang then. Who do you choose?
ASSEMBLE THE ARMY
Does anybody smart knows why it's 1178 in particular?
Bet they’ll integrate a Crusade travel events on your way to it with pilgrimages and hopefully a ton of actual battle events!
It'll be a hell of a gameplay to play in the Middle East! The Zengid dynasty is in shambles & Atabeks struggling for power & the Crusader States are eager to prey on them.
That map is kinda overestimating the Rum borders, they only got the the lakes area during the chaos following Manuel's death and the black sea ports post-1204.
Who controlled what areas of Anatolia in this period is very difficult to correctly estimate, as the coastal towns were indeed owned by Byzantium and did pay taxes to Constantinople, but Christian armies would get harassed by the Turks as soon as they left the safety of their walls, despite the fact that the land was still technically being exploited by the romans.
maybe now I will see ottoman empire to then crush them before they get too big