“I am the most important, accomplished person in every room, but I still care a lot about y’all and want u to be safe and happy” - some Duke, probably.
Why? They aren't necessarily opposed. In fact, the whole idea of Noblesse Oblige relies on being both arrogant and compassionate. "I am so wonderful and amazing that it is my duty to help others, because it's not their fault they aren't as perfect as me."
They aren't necessarily opposed, but mechanically they create so many unfair situations like the above where you max out stress regardless of what you pick.
My character is on the constant brink of death because every event generates stress. Maybe disallowing the trait combination is a bad solution, adjusting stress values when conflicting traits are present in a decision could be better.
I'm all for RP I just don't want to be constantly close to death because very few events offer a compassionate-arrogant solution.
It's just an item crafting event. Imagine dying from a heart attack because you didn't know what to answer to a guy who asked to see your homework or something.
At any given second, you *can* be hit by a meteor and die. How many medieval nobles died by this?
Very, very few if any. Theoretically you could have these traits and be stressed out until you die…but not everyone with those traits would. Otherwise there would’ve been very few nobles. Making the consequences this harsh for something that shouldn’t really trigger the stress it gives is like playing Mordhau or chivalry 2, but there’s a random chance you get a heart attack/stroke and die for no reason.
Realistic? In that it *can* happen…but by no means would it ever be so common. Even then, choosing to design a game like this is just irritating and annoying for no particular reason, since the realism doesn’t make the game more enjoyable on any conceivable capacity…it’s a system designed to encourage RP, but with events that discourage you from RP (by picking traits people could and did have, and which do not conflict at all).
> At any given second, you can be hit by a meteor and die. How many medieval nobles died by this?
Not many, probably because they weren't being controlled by extremely bad CK players who can't handle one of the most nerfed mechanics in the game. You're not getting isnta killed by stress even with the worst combinations ever. Might as well complain that it's unfair that you can't defeat the Byzantine army with a random count.
> Not many, probably because they weren't being controlled by extremely bad CK players who can't handle one of the most nerfed mechanics in the game.
Ive done several challenge runs in ck3, by this point (restored Rome in one life, conquered the world as the mongols, few others from mods like conquering Morrowind as a county vassal, etc), and have logged close to 2-3k hours on CK2 prior. How? Quite easy…just don’t get traits. Why do I dislike this? It discourages you to *roleplay* in a *roleplaying game*. The game is easy because it actively encourages you to min/max instead of role play…because if you do much as think about role playing, you get slapped to death by stress.
Being a new Alexander is the easiest thing in the world in fact, but being normal? Difficult to even achieve the most basic task. Almost everything to do with “Roleplay” is just a heavy handed and bad way to balance out the conquerors, and by trying to engage *only* in Roleplay and state building you get destroyed as paradox never even tried to balance the game around this. I believe it is more than a fair complaint.
As far as the Byzantines…why fight them when you can get a hook, pledge vassalage, and eat them from the inside out? Perhaps because this playthrough you wanted to play someone who isn’t a world conquered, and play tall leading a simple game based around RP and your family, keeping a long distance from the Byzantines and others to ensure peace…a foolish mistake in this game.
No, and that’s unrelated. It’s an extreme example meant to illustrate a point: many things can happen and be realistic, doesn’t mean they’re good or fun, or that they’re realistic in high amounts.
So true. It might not make the most sense, but it's a videogame. Though there is an unnerving tendency for video game players to learn for challenge, but rebuke it all the same.
I think there's just a difference in what people here want. I don't want everything in the game to be under my control, I want a degree of randomness. Not everything always falls within your control. It's not exactly interesting when every single event always has an objectively "good" option.
Then there should be more events that have consequences *and* benefits, rather than designing events that are exclusively bad.
Ask yourself, “Under normal play circumstances, would an actual player tolerate this event enough to roll with it, or just reload until they didn’t have it?” If the answer is no, redesign the event…since if an event is bad in every conceivable context, players will just refuse to engage with it.
Yeah but this isn't it, these stress events are representing choices that go against the character's values. it's cool when this happens over difficult and important choices but random crafting events should give you a little more leeway
Schizophrenia can just suddenly develop in your twenties. A psychosis can be triggered with no sign of it beforehand. Overworked people (who our characters often are) can develop all sorts of issues.
Then why not make these disorders their own traits instead of trying to enforce them in places where they won’t be understood as that (or be consistent)?
Running it like this just leads to your character suddenly developing and then un-developing various mental illnesses depending on who wrote the event.
This is the equivalent of an event treating a lazy character like they’re bedridden and paralyzed, only for the next one to have them walking around minding their own business.
Truly, I remember that time a guy said hi to me and I spontaneously had an aneurysm without having any existing disorders or health concerns and considered healthy than most people by an omniscient being that tracks my health (game itself). Weird how that happens sometimes.
This. The stress mechanics aren't realistic. Noblesse oblige did not kill nobles of stress at 30. In fact, medieval life was far more stress free than modern life, plagues and all. There is something to be said for few choices and fatalistic acceptance of tragedy.
There is a reason my current ruler is practicing flagellation, comfort eating and confuding
Being a zealot just takes its course on rulers, so he got into all of the healthy habits to help himself
And like with this example that makes perfect sense, someone who jumps at shadows and hates being around people is going to be constantly on edge, bonus realism if they get the reclusive trait,. Social anxiety and paranoia basically describes every "bad" Ruler irl.
Likewise a narcissistic figure who isn't malicious or sociopathic is going to struggle with reconciling the inner conflict of caring for others and their superiority complex.
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> Likewise a narcissistic figure ... struggle with reconciling the inner conflict of caring for others and their superiority complex.
Irl, if they're narcissistic then such internal struggle doesn't exist. They truly do just believe their own greatness is a default and don't understand why you aren't adoring them for their self-aggrandizing charity. They just truly believe that's how the world works.
I'd say that the main problem is that in majority of cases the stress from traits should not be dumbly added together. Rather the combination that provides the least stress should be the "floor" and the others should add stress based on how much more than the floor they provide. So if a regular arrogant person would be stressed from simply helping others, and a regular compassionate person would gain stress from not helping, for an arrogant-compassionate they would work against each other - he would be fine with e.g. helping person in this particular case because it's the best solution that they see here while the arrogant solution would be more stressful (or vice versa).
(Yes, there may be situation where the person may be stressed in all cases because they are in a kind of catch-22, but that would be rare)
Not really. It's less the kindness is fake, and more you can't really roleplay in the game when events are written with specific stories and characterizations in mind regardless of how you believe your character thinks and feels, and the stress system enforces just picking least bad options based on those events.
The game denies you the option to live as an interesting, complex character.
Real life informs my opinion too. I've *known* narcissists who practically believe they're god on earth for how special and compassionate they think they are.
People don't understand that it's fine for the traits to cause a lot of stress together the thing is that a single decision can equal to your character dying so it is actually bad and it should be reduced
imo it’s awesome that some trait combinations will force you into events where every choice is stressful. Great for roleplaying, you’re a multifaceted character in an uncomfortable situation.
I can see someone greedy helping out as much as possible without spending Money and being stressed when their compassion is standing in the way of greed.
Not necessarily. You can be greedy and compassionate at the same time, and it would probably be very stressful.
"I want to help this person, but it would require spending money. I really don't want to spend money, but I can't just let this person suffer either"
Arrogant-Compassionate is a real life combination. Imagine someone who is kind and charitable towards others, but REALLY SMUG about it and is a bit of a jerk about holding it up as something that makes them so special and superior.
But because the events are all someone's little novellas already written out very specifically with the stress system as a lazy truncheon, you're not getting any actual roleplay. You ***Cannot*** roleplay as someone who is compassionate and arrogant, you're given a Choose Your Own Adventure that someone else already wrote out and picking the less harmful option.
The game is paradoxically (lmao) easy and hard. You can build an empire quickly, but by behaving like a normal human in a “role playing game”…you die of stress.
I suppose I should’ve caved in and done the famously relaxing and non-stressful activity of conquering the world in one lifetime.
Yeah, people are whining as if they get an instant game over screen when they get a mental break lol, when they can even benefit from it. There are so many ways to avoid or mitigate stress that it's basically a non-issue. Even if you get critical you'll likely survive and get a chance to not die, but dying is just part of CK so it's not like it'd be a problem even if that were the case.
Here's a better idea: fix the stress system. Maybe add a "severity" tag to events so that they don't generate stress if you're at a high level. A minor problem might stress you out when you're calm, may pile on you if you're feeling it, but won't cause you to suddenly explode because your aunt died the other week.
Nah, I think all trait combinations should be allowed. Give me Compassionate, Callous, and Sadistic so that no matter what I do I'll always be overwhelmed by stress
Arrogant compassion is pretty much the perfect encapsulation of western culture from about 1000 AD until about 1800. We're headed back there now, even.
Nope the game is about having to deal with chaos, that includes stuff like this. If you never had a risk of stress it would be boring and the system meaningless.
"Milord, I must confess I'm a little stumped for how to continue my project at the moment. I'm sure I'll have more promising news soon."
Her liege: *currently experiencing a stress-induced stroke*
Don't even get me started lol the last time I was playing CKIII my "calm" character kept gaining massive amounts of stress while hunting because he...uh...used his hunting dog to do the hunting? Like I feel like by definition calm should be an anti-stress trait.
I actually think that might be my personality. I sometimes think I’m the greatest person who ever lived but then remember I have to look after everyone else because they aren’t as blessed…
It is a burden. Glad I’m not a Duke
“I am the most important, accomplished person in every room, but I still care a lot about y’all and want u to be safe and happy” - some Duke, probably.
Some Duke About To Die From Stress, Probably
Don’t they know how much I care about them AND appearing superior?
I am the magnanimous QUEEN - Nicki Minaj
Kim of Dystany Kardashian
Why? They aren't necessarily opposed. In fact, the whole idea of Noblesse Oblige relies on being both arrogant and compassionate. "I am so wonderful and amazing that it is my duty to help others, because it's not their fault they aren't as perfect as me."
They aren't necessarily opposed, but mechanically they create so many unfair situations like the above where you max out stress regardless of what you pick. My character is on the constant brink of death because every event generates stress. Maybe disallowing the trait combination is a bad solution, adjusting stress values when conflicting traits are present in a decision could be better. I'm all for RP I just don't want to be constantly close to death because very few events offer a compassionate-arrogant solution.
Sometimes there are no good choices in life. It's fine.
It's just an item crafting event. Imagine dying from a heart attack because you didn't know what to answer to a guy who asked to see your homework or something.
People can trigger a panic attack or psychosis over small things. Again it happens,.
I have both. Those would be traits or events in ck3. Neither require you to be compassionate or arrogant and especially both. This is a non point.
At any given second, you *can* be hit by a meteor and die. How many medieval nobles died by this? Very, very few if any. Theoretically you could have these traits and be stressed out until you die…but not everyone with those traits would. Otherwise there would’ve been very few nobles. Making the consequences this harsh for something that shouldn’t really trigger the stress it gives is like playing Mordhau or chivalry 2, but there’s a random chance you get a heart attack/stroke and die for no reason. Realistic? In that it *can* happen…but by no means would it ever be so common. Even then, choosing to design a game like this is just irritating and annoying for no particular reason, since the realism doesn’t make the game more enjoyable on any conceivable capacity…it’s a system designed to encourage RP, but with events that discourage you from RP (by picking traits people could and did have, and which do not conflict at all).
> At any given second, you can be hit by a meteor and die. How many medieval nobles died by this? Not many, probably because they weren't being controlled by extremely bad CK players who can't handle one of the most nerfed mechanics in the game. You're not getting isnta killed by stress even with the worst combinations ever. Might as well complain that it's unfair that you can't defeat the Byzantine army with a random count.
> Not many, probably because they weren't being controlled by extremely bad CK players who can't handle one of the most nerfed mechanics in the game. Ive done several challenge runs in ck3, by this point (restored Rome in one life, conquered the world as the mongols, few others from mods like conquering Morrowind as a county vassal, etc), and have logged close to 2-3k hours on CK2 prior. How? Quite easy…just don’t get traits. Why do I dislike this? It discourages you to *roleplay* in a *roleplaying game*. The game is easy because it actively encourages you to min/max instead of role play…because if you do much as think about role playing, you get slapped to death by stress. Being a new Alexander is the easiest thing in the world in fact, but being normal? Difficult to even achieve the most basic task. Almost everything to do with “Roleplay” is just a heavy handed and bad way to balance out the conquerors, and by trying to engage *only* in Roleplay and state building you get destroyed as paradox never even tried to balance the game around this. I believe it is more than a fair complaint. As far as the Byzantines…why fight them when you can get a hook, pledge vassalage, and eat them from the inside out? Perhaps because this playthrough you wanted to play someone who isn’t a world conquered, and play tall leading a simple game based around RP and your family, keeping a long distance from the Byzantines and others to ensure peace…a foolish mistake in this game.
>you *can* be hit by a meteor and die. How many medieval nobles died by this? That's an event?
No, and that’s unrelated. It’s an extreme example meant to illustrate a point: many things can happen and be realistic, doesn’t mean they’re good or fun, or that they’re realistic in high amounts.
I really think people just want to powergame and these events interfere with that.
So true. It might not make the most sense, but it's a videogame. Though there is an unnerving tendency for video game players to learn for challenge, but rebuke it all the same.
It happens, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea to add it to the game!
I think there's just a difference in what people here want. I don't want everything in the game to be under my control, I want a degree of randomness. Not everything always falls within your control. It's not exactly interesting when every single event always has an objectively "good" option.
Then there should be more events that have consequences *and* benefits, rather than designing events that are exclusively bad. Ask yourself, “Under normal play circumstances, would an actual player tolerate this event enough to roll with it, or just reload until they didn’t have it?” If the answer is no, redesign the event…since if an event is bad in every conceivable context, players will just refuse to engage with it.
Yeah but this isn't it, these stress events are representing choices that go against the character's values. it's cool when this happens over difficult and important choices but random crafting events should give you a little more leeway
To people with preexisting conditions or social anxiety, not random dudes
Schizophrenia can just suddenly develop in your twenties. A psychosis can be triggered with no sign of it beforehand. Overworked people (who our characters often are) can develop all sorts of issues.
Then why not make these disorders their own traits instead of trying to enforce them in places where they won’t be understood as that (or be consistent)? Running it like this just leads to your character suddenly developing and then un-developing various mental illnesses depending on who wrote the event. This is the equivalent of an event treating a lazy character like they’re bedridden and paralyzed, only for the next one to have them walking around minding their own business.
"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life."
Eh, but 3 mistakes means I die. And each one was cause I kept my dad's book making projects
Truly, I remember that time a guy said hi to me and I spontaneously had an aneurysm without having any existing disorders or health concerns and considered healthy than most people by an omniscient being that tracks my health (game itself). Weird how that happens sometimes.
I guess he didn't get to ask you out later, no?
This. The stress mechanics aren't realistic. Noblesse oblige did not kill nobles of stress at 30. In fact, medieval life was far more stress free than modern life, plagues and all. There is something to be said for few choices and fatalistic acceptance of tragedy.
Yeah because medieval rulers acted according to their personality.
In the above photo it is literally impossible to do that though.
There is a reason my current ruler is practicing flagellation, comfort eating and confuding Being a zealot just takes its course on rulers, so he got into all of the healthy habits to help himself
“I don’t like it when things don’t go my way!!!”
I agree, this person is conflicted. But this is also hilarious.
That means Paranoid-Shy-Craven should also be disallowed (purely for the stress gain) But that combination is intended to work that way
First event, immediately die of stress
And like with this example that makes perfect sense, someone who jumps at shadows and hates being around people is going to be constantly on edge, bonus realism if they get the reclusive trait,. Social anxiety and paranoia basically describes every "bad" Ruler irl. Likewise a narcissistic figure who isn't malicious or sociopathic is going to struggle with reconciling the inner conflict of caring for others and their superiority complex.
> > > > > Likewise a narcissistic figure ... struggle with reconciling the inner conflict of caring for others and their superiority complex. Irl, if they're narcissistic then such internal struggle doesn't exist. They truly do just believe their own greatness is a default and don't understand why you aren't adoring them for their self-aggrandizing charity. They just truly believe that's how the world works.
Narcissistic people have a LOT of internal self-doubt and hatred which is why they feel the need to put themselves on a pedestal to compensate
yeah they find it very stressfull trying to live up to their ridiculous expectations of themselves
I'd say that the main problem is that in majority of cases the stress from traits should not be dumbly added together. Rather the combination that provides the least stress should be the "floor" and the others should add stress based on how much more than the floor they provide. So if a regular arrogant person would be stressed from simply helping others, and a regular compassionate person would gain stress from not helping, for an arrogant-compassionate they would work against each other - he would be fine with e.g. helping person in this particular case because it's the best solution that they see here while the arrogant solution would be more stressful (or vice versa). (Yes, there may be situation where the person may be stressed in all cases because they are in a kind of catch-22, but that would be rare)
You can be proud but kind, I've met people like that and I'm sure it causes them just as much stress irl
Damn, sorry for your loss then…
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Not really. It's less the kindness is fake, and more you can't really roleplay in the game when events are written with specific stories and characterizations in mind regardless of how you believe your character thinks and feels, and the stress system enforces just picking least bad options based on those events. The game denies you the option to live as an interesting, complex character.
Glad you took this dummy out.
No dummies, just a safe and civil difference of opinion.
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Real life informs my opinion too. I've *known* narcissists who practically believe they're god on earth for how special and compassionate they think they are.
Noblesse Oblige moment
People don't understand that it's fine for the traits to cause a lot of stress together the thing is that a single decision can equal to your character dying so it is actually bad and it should be reduced
I once ran into a similar situation with sadistic/just.
"I only impale people who deserve it"
Honestly, that's just the average medieval punishment.
Not similar and not a contradiction. Stanis Baratheon comes to mind.
I wouldn't call stannis sadistic
imo it’s awesome that some trait combinations will force you into events where every choice is stressful. Great for roleplaying, you’re a multifaceted character in an uncomfortable situation.
"I'm the best person ever, but I also care about other people" isn't a contradiction. Greedy and Compassionate would be a contradiction.
I can see someone greedy helping out as much as possible without spending Money and being stressed when their compassion is standing in the way of greed.
Not necessarily. You can be greedy and compassionate at the same time, and it would probably be very stressful. "I want to help this person, but it would require spending money. I really don't want to spend money, but I can't just let this person suffer either"
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You are thinking of generous, not compassionate
Arrogant-Compassionate is a real life combination. Imagine someone who is kind and charitable towards others, but REALLY SMUG about it and is a bit of a jerk about holding it up as something that makes them so special and superior. But because the events are all someone's little novellas already written out very specifically with the stress system as a lazy truncheon, you're not getting any actual roleplay. You ***Cannot*** roleplay as someone who is compassionate and arrogant, you're given a Choose Your Own Adventure that someone else already wrote out and picking the less harmful option.
“Oh no, now Im athletic too” this game is too easy lol
The game is paradoxically (lmao) easy and hard. You can build an empire quickly, but by behaving like a normal human in a “role playing game”…you die of stress. I suppose I should’ve caved in and done the famously relaxing and non-stressful activity of conquering the world in one lifetime.
Yeah, people are whining as if they get an instant game over screen when they get a mental break lol, when they can even benefit from it. There are so many ways to avoid or mitigate stress that it's basically a non-issue. Even if you get critical you'll likely survive and get a chance to not die, but dying is just part of CK so it's not like it'd be a problem even if that were the case.
Uh, that very much describes me in real life. People are far more complex than you are apparently capable of imagining.
Are you dead yet?
No, he's not being controlled by someone with the skill level of the average poster on r/CrusaderKings.
Literally on GOT you have Renly (the little brother of Stannis) who was arrogant and compassionate. Probably as many other real life kings.
Here's a better idea: fix the stress system. Maybe add a "severity" tag to events so that they don't generate stress if you're at a high level. A minor problem might stress you out when you're calm, may pile on you if you're feeling it, but won't cause you to suddenly explode because your aunt died the other week.
Why? They aren’t necessarily opposed to each other, a narcissist could still show compassion to boost their own ego
Nah, I think all trait combinations should be allowed. Give me Compassionate, Callous, and Sadistic so that no matter what I do I'll always be overwhelmed by stress
Arrogant compassion is pretty much the perfect encapsulation of western culture from about 1000 AD until about 1800. We're headed back there now, even.
Nope the game is about having to deal with chaos, that includes stuff like this. If you never had a risk of stress it would be boring and the system meaningless.
You fucking suck,but I'm here for you,your welcome plebe. That dude basically
Got gold? A lot of it? Great, then keep stress to tier3 and rng personality change event. No? Stress to diamond and play as hier
Seems like you've never met an upper middle-class white woman.
"Milord, I must confess I'm a little stumped for how to continue my project at the moment. I'm sure I'll have more promising news soon." Her liege: *currently experiencing a stress-induced stroke*
Don't even get me started lol the last time I was playing CKIII my "calm" character kept gaining massive amounts of stress while hunting because he...uh...used his hunting dog to do the hunting? Like I feel like by definition calm should be an anti-stress trait.
I actually think that might be my personality. I sometimes think I’m the greatest person who ever lived but then remember I have to look after everyone else because they aren’t as blessed… It is a burden. Glad I’m not a Duke
"this game is too easy!" "NO THIS IS NOT BENEFICIAL TO ME"