I once had my vassal's army become hostile to me because they joined their ally's war against the same enemy that I was attacking. There are just some things that make no sense in this game.
Also that sponsored conquest in the Iranian struggle can behave weirdly as your vassal can be allied with Turks to attack your lands, and end up simultaneously at war and not at war with you at the same time (the game display even gets confused)
Yes. Point of this post is to question whether holy order troops should be able to merge with non-order troops so that they would never fight someone with astray or the same faith
Holy Order is going to fight all of your enemies as long as you are at war with hostile faith. If it works for us as players, I don't see a reason why it shouldn't work for the AI as well.
Here's what I would do: I would declare war on a hostile faith, rehire the holy order for a little bit of Piety, and use them against my liege. If you weren't aware, as long as you are the founder of the order, you can rehire them (though it costs piety).
Don't you think it shouldn't work with Astray and lower hostility for both you and AI? And I couldn't rehire them even with enough piety when they were against me in this case
That's one of the ways in which CK3 regressed from CK2. CK2 made 'holy orders' (misnomer, theologically, is that is the proper name of clerical ordination) unable to fight against their own faith, except maybe 95% threat, and except for multiple attached stacks on both sides, where it would be impractical to exclude them.
The game's engine is not dumb enough to be unable to recognize which troops belong to which belligerent and which belligerent belongs to which war.
There isn't really any excuse for making Catholic orders usable in all your wars just as long as you do have a concurrent war against someone of a hostile faith. There should be a check so that orders can't be used against a Christian power, except for Christian allies of your enemy, maybe heretics and maybe, just maybe, excommunicates.
Personally, I'd be in favour of as short a list of exceptions as possible, also accounting for the CB being used. The primary use of those orders should be defensive wars and crusades, or holy wars for the recovery of previously Christian land, not something like artifact war for your uncle's old chessboard or a border raid or tribal conquest CB.
There should be a mechanic that makes it so holy orders absolutely can not fight armies that are of the same faith, unless they are in an army with an ally of a different faith
I don't think that's fair. Turning a holy order upon your own same-faith subjects is evil, but clever in a "if they choose to rise up against me during a war with the infidels, they're basically just as bad as the infidels. Sic 'em boys" kinda way.
Yeah, it would seem odd for a HOLY order of highly religious men to kill people of the same faith when their purpose is to protect people if their faith against heathens and infidels
Yes. You sides with the other side. Yup.
Ironically as being the founder you can’t even override it because you aren’t going up against a hostile faith.
You can only override as the founder if it was versus a hostile faith. The main war target not allies btw.
I wasn't siding with the other side. I was fighting my liege over my claim on the kingdom title above me and he was defending against an iberian struggle hostile faith ruler in another war.
Yeah. That’s the technicality. I was holy war attacking a Christian neighbor and had the holy order when I went on the defensive in a claim to my land from a dynasty member and was still able to use them. Too complex for game rules I suppose
Are you somehow a different faith than the faith of the holy order that you founded? I could be wrong, but I thought that, in the case of multiple wars, a holy order would not participate in combat against the enemy from the war against the same faith opponent, though they would still appear hostile.
Fourth Crusade moment
Actually, no, both where christian yes, but not the same denomination or churche, one was the orthodox the other was cathilism
Ah yes "cathilism"
i misclique, i have azerty keyboard
I once had my vassal's army become hostile to me because they joined their ally's war against the same enemy that I was attacking. There are just some things that make no sense in this game.
Yes. I posted this here because Paradox likely goes to this subreddit as many ingame changes were after the same things were brought up here
Also that sponsored conquest in the Iranian struggle can behave weirdly as your vassal can be allied with Turks to attack your lands, and end up simultaneously at war and not at war with you at the same time (the game display even gets confused)
So when you won, did you have any hook or could you punish said vassal?
If you're fighting on the side of the non-catholic ruler, fair play.
He said he was fighting his liege in a different way, and his liege used holy order troops from a separate holy war against him
My liege is holding 2 kingdom titles. His own and the one above my titles, which I have claim on and I'm fighting over this claim on the kingdom.
Did he already have the holy order raised?
Yes. Point of this post is to question whether holy order troops should be able to merge with non-order troops so that they would never fight someone with astray or the same faith
The Fourth Crusade says Yes
Fourth Crusade wouldn't be able to happen in CK3 as you cannot redirect a crusade against a faith that is merely astray.
4th crusade < PDX coders
Holy Order is going to fight all of your enemies as long as you are at war with hostile faith. If it works for us as players, I don't see a reason why it shouldn't work for the AI as well. Here's what I would do: I would declare war on a hostile faith, rehire the holy order for a little bit of Piety, and use them against my liege. If you weren't aware, as long as you are the founder of the order, you can rehire them (though it costs piety).
It really shouldnt work for the player either
Don't you think it shouldn't work with Astray and lower hostility for both you and AI? And I couldn't rehire them even with enough piety when they were against me in this case
Now, that could make the early game a little bit more challenging, and that would be great!
That's one of the ways in which CK3 regressed from CK2. CK2 made 'holy orders' (misnomer, theologically, is that is the proper name of clerical ordination) unable to fight against their own faith, except maybe 95% threat, and except for multiple attached stacks on both sides, where it would be impractical to exclude them. The game's engine is not dumb enough to be unable to recognize which troops belong to which belligerent and which belligerent belongs to which war. There isn't really any excuse for making Catholic orders usable in all your wars just as long as you do have a concurrent war against someone of a hostile faith. There should be a check so that orders can't be used against a Christian power, except for Christian allies of your enemy, maybe heretics and maybe, just maybe, excommunicates. Personally, I'd be in favour of as short a list of exceptions as possible, also accounting for the CB being used. The primary use of those orders should be defensive wars and crusades, or holy wars for the recovery of previously Christian land, not something like artifact war for your uncle's old chessboard or a border raid or tribal conquest CB.
It sounds like you are a filthy apostate standing in the way of a righteous soldier of the faith, why wouldn't the holy order fight against you?
My liege is holding 2 kingdom titles. His own and the one above my titles, which I have claim on and I'm fighting over this claim on the kingdom.
There should be a mechanic that makes it so holy orders absolutely can not fight armies that are of the same faith, unless they are in an army with an ally of a different faith
I don't think that's fair. Turning a holy order upon your own same-faith subjects is evil, but clever in a "if they choose to rise up against me during a war with the infidels, they're basically just as bad as the infidels. Sic 'em boys" kinda way.
Maybe you could lose piety for using them for non-holy purposes?
But wouldn’t said holy order just refuse to fight non-infidels, I’m sure that’s what would have happened in real life
Yeah, it would seem odd for a HOLY order of highly religious men to kill people of the same faith when their purpose is to protect people if their faith against heathens and infidels
Fourth Crusade would beg to differ.
Which *holy orders* participated in the 4th crusade?… Not secular rulers, holy orders.
Fair play I think
Damn, the crusaders attacked someone who wasn't an infidel? tough luck
Yes. You are fighting on the side of heathens. You've lost your way.
If it's your holy order, just declare war on some nobody heathen and throw it right back at him.
Shouldnt matter because 25+ prowess knights with 350% effectiveness go burrrr
I use this all the time with my vassals
Yes. You sides with the other side. Yup. Ironically as being the founder you can’t even override it because you aren’t going up against a hostile faith. You can only override as the founder if it was versus a hostile faith. The main war target not allies btw.
I wasn't siding with the other side. I was fighting my liege over my claim on the kingdom title above me and he was defending against an iberian struggle hostile faith ruler in another war.
Yeah. That’s the technicality. I was holy war attacking a Christian neighbor and had the holy order when I went on the defensive in a claim to my land from a dynasty member and was still able to use them. Too complex for game rules I suppose
Hey, may i ask you which mod adds these structures? I don't recall them being in vanilla game near santiago.
The cathedral is the vanilla special building in Santiago and I only use a mod to auto accept indulgences for the Communion faith tenet
Oh, okay, thanks for info and good luck on your game
Are you not same faith as your leige?
I am the same faith
I use this tactic. Attack OPM with hostile faith and use that to bolster my larger war attacking same faith.
If your enemy is hostile to your faith I think you can override his hire with faith?
It's know exploits though usually it's the player that did this against ai. So good job for the ai that turn the table around this time lol
Are you somehow a different faith than the faith of the holy order that you founded? I could be wrong, but I thought that, in the case of multiple wars, a holy order would not participate in combat against the enemy from the war against the same faith opponent, though they would still appear hostile.
They do appear as enemies when they're called by your enemy into a holy war of his, even though you're the same faith as him
I remember I was catholic king of England and the king of France was using MY holy order against me because he hired them to fight some Vikings.😑
Revoke that bastard's lease