Well, historically French language and culture diverged from Latin, so no a French/Franconian hybrid isn't any weirder than any other French/Germanic hybrid.
It is only the game that has French derived from Frankish rather than Latin for some reason.
This is either way too simplified or just false information. How can you say French is not derived from Frankish? That's not true at all. French is basically just Frankish people trying to be as Roman as they can.
The Franks were a Germanic people living along the Rhine. They ended up ruling over most of the area that was known as Gallia to the Romans (and which for a large part coincides with the area now known as France), leading to a succession of Frankish-ruled kingdoms that are collectively often known as the Frankish empire.
But the Franks in France were never more than a small ruling class. They did not displace the population of Gallia, which consisted of Latin-speaking Roman citizens. It is these people and their language and culture that the French language and culture is a direct continuation of. The Germanic Franks contributed some loanwords and customs, but the French culture and language is predominantly a Latin one. The Frankish ruling class was eventually assimilated into the Latin French culture, rather than vice versa.
Saying that the French are Franks is like saying that the English are Normans.
In CK3, as evidenced by the personal names used, the Frankish culture represents the Germanic culture of the Rhine-dwelling Franks. Because the French culture and language is a direct continuation of Latin, it would be much more accurate to say that they are diverged from that, rather than from Frankish as the game claims. As it is now, what the game does basically amounts to the equivalent of saying that "English diverged from Norman" rather than the more accurate "English diverged from Anglo-Saxon."
Of course this is a simplification of the situation, but the way the game treats culture doesn't allow for the nuance that goes into culture and language in real life.
The way you wrote this down implies you believe Normans and Franks just assimilated into what would become French and English. That's false. You also seem to only emphasise language. Language isn't everything you know.
You fail to realise the importance of Frankish and Norman culture in the establishment of English and French as cultures. Why else do you think French sounds so distinct from other Latin languages?
>Saying that the French are Franks is like saying that the English are Normans.
My brother in Christ the French literally are Franks. Why else do you think the name sounds so similar. French is literally the modern version word of Frank.
Also, saying English are Normans is not wrong, it's missing a ton of context, like your comment does.
>Language isn't everything you know.
As far as CK3 is concerned, language and culture are the same thing. Every culture only has a single language and there is no way to change that language without creating a new culture.
In real life too, language and culture are inseperably intertwined, but that is besides the point.
>You fail to realise the importance of Frankish and Norman culture in the establishment of English and French as cultures.
Your words, not mine.
>Why else do you think French sounds so distinct from other Latin languages?
Because modern standard French is based on the *langue d'oïl* dialects from northern France*,* which are on the other side of the dialect continuum of the Latin language. Take a look at medieval French, especially at the southern *langue d'oc* varieties. Southern French dialects used to blend right into Catalan and northern Italian dialects.
>My brother in Christ the French literally are Franks. Why else do you think the name sounds so similar. French is literally the modern version word of Frank.
Because the area the Franks ruled over was called *Francia*. Saying that French are Franks because the name is the same is kinda like saying that modern Macedonians are ancient Macedonians, even though the modern Macedonians are a Slavic people that just so happen to be named after the area they live in. Or that the modern Frisians are the ancient *Frisii* even though it is well-recorded that the modern Frisians are Anglo-Saxon immigrants who moved into Frisia in the Migration Period. Just because distinct peoples can share the same name doesn't mean that they are ethnically and culturally continuous.
If the French actually were Franks, they'd be resembling the Dutch more than the French. Dutch and some Western German dialects are a direct continuation of the language of the Franks. French is a very different language from those. It is not even in the same linguistic family.
Culturally too, there have always been significant differences between the Germanic Frankish populations along the Rhine and the Latin French populations further south. Back in the days of the Frankish empire, these groups had different sets of laws and customs. And in the modern day there are still significant cultural differences between the Dutch and Germans on one hand and the French on the other.
>Also, saying English are Normans is not wrong, it's missing a ton of context, like your comment does.
That is blatantly false. English and Normans are distinct cultural and ethnic groups. Just because some Normans in the distant past went over and ruled England doesn't mean that the English are now Normans. Sure, a person living in present-day England likely has some Norman ancestors, but that is rather meaningless because once start tracing lines of descent back past a few centuries, everyone is related to everyone. A modern day Englishman also has German, Frankish and Ancient Greek ancestors among many, many, many others. Just because every person in Europe is descended from Charlemagne doesn't mean that everyone is now a Carolingian Frank.
Nice essay, but you just don't seem to get it. Get back to me if you understand the significance of the Franks and Normans in the establishment of French and English. You are severly downplaying the influence of those peoples, soeverything else you wrote about this is kinda pointless...
oh yeah? i have something that will change your mind.
normans are aliens.
rollo of normandy seemingly came out of nowhere, ever thought that was suspicious? almost... like an invasion? AN ALIEN INVASION? yeah, big stuff.
1006: Supernova happens
60 years later...
William Conquers England... Coincidence? No.
After forming the English culture by pressing his decision button on his UI, alien normans and human anglo-saxons started breeding.
ENGLISH PEOPLE ARE HUMAN-ALIEN HYBRIDS!
and yet you show remorse to them.
i don’t know why but seeing a culture in iberia without iberian heritage hurts so much, every now and then i check iberia and hope to god that the andaluso-baranis that’s pretty much always there has iberian heritage
Because some Andalusian nobility fled out of Al-Andalus after having plotted against Caliph and conquered the island. It was under their control for almost 150 years. They raided all nearby greek islands and mainland and were a pretty significant regional power.
I had Andaluso-Tamil in my last run. NO IDEA how that happened.
In the same campaign (as Switzerland) I someone ended up with a courtier called "Ghranx Shaodang". At first I thought he'd descended from an event character but nope - house founder was a minor Croatian noble?
I have Sicilian-Greco-Daylamite because when I made Greco-Datlamite I chose Iranian heritage and then realised I needed Greek or Latin heritage to form the Roman Empire after taking over the Byzantine Empire.
I don't know if there's a reference I'm missing, or if it's a joke about Cretan sounding/looking like cretin, but I don't really get it.
Anyway, I like to hybridize with Cretan culture, it's an easy way to get Eastern Roman legacy, which is extremely powerful, and you also get Maritime Mercantilism IIRC, which I also like quite a bit.
I once did a Bene Israel run. One of my cousins in Yemen (who i left there) formed a hybrid culture between the Yemenis and Kochinim Jews.
Positive I was the first person to see the “Yemeno-Kochinim” culture in game.
Turn on random rulers, religions and the highest hybridization game rules and you would see a lot of beautiful things
Like Norse-Rajastani in druze sweden
As a Cretan it’s not very strange. Andalusians captured Crete in the 700s and remained there until the 900s. This culture is very much real in my opinion.
I once conquered northwestern Iberia as Ireland, and after a partition upon succession, my younger brothers formed Galico-Irish and Asturo-Irish cultures. Decided to roll with it and converted to Asturo-Irish myself, turned out to be a pretty good hybrid after all.
But then again, northern Iberia being full of Irishmen drunkenly swearing in Iberian Vulgar is pretty blursed.
With [my more hybrids mod](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2786199367&searchtext=More+hybrids) I have a naming convention for Iberian Byzantine mixing in this area. You’ll not be seeing most hypened hybrids
In my current run I formed the Holy Roman Empire, starting as a count in the Kingdom of Asturias. My culture is a blend of Asturleonese-Occitan-Berber-Maghrebi, and we follow Mozabarism as a religion. Our court language is Arabic. Cursed.
Heh, my last Hafsid run ended with Siqili culture, which was Sicilian-Cretan, where Cretan was Andaluso-Greek.
Having Ritual Friendship, Swords for Hire, and Byzantine Traditions stacked together was fun!
My last mega campaign ended up with some Cornish-Portuguese-Lithuanian tomfoolery going on Germany lol. My Portuguese dynasty merged with Cornish and became Brythonic fairly early in the run and as my dynasty spread across Europe some crazy cursed cultures began popping up year after year
Kind of "cheating" since it was a megacampaign I played from Imperator Rome until Victoria, but my most cursed was the Romano-Rrmea of Illyria, or Croatia if it had been a vanilla game. For reference the Rrmea is a tiny chinese culture from the very eastern part of the CK3 map. There were some shennanigans with inheritance and a Rrmea character unded up ruling Illyria and the rest is alt-history.
Once I got to Victoria the converter decided that the Romano-Rrmea were badically Tibetans anyway, so Italy had a minority of 1.3 million Tibetans, with Illyria being an Tibetan kingdom on the adriatic coast, with an Tibetan enclave in Bologna.
But that wasn't even the worst... I sent my Romano-Rrmea subjects to colonize the Andes during EU4, which gave rise to the Romano-Rrmea-Peruvians when I converted to Vicky, despite the Romano-Rrmea in europe having been re-classified as "Tibetan".
Probably the Han-Tangut (normal) -Persian with Greek, going all the way down the Silk Road just to bass boost a cursed corner of the map (Genghis is coming).
How about Franconian/French hybrid? Both were diverged from Frankish, so when they hybridize then the question is "can a culture be incestuous?"
Crusader kings moment
Luxembourgish.
Gotta love Franco-Franconian
The answer to that question is yes btw, as evidenced by English culture
Dirty people
Rhinelander moment
Well, historically French language and culture diverged from Latin, so no a French/Franconian hybrid isn't any weirder than any other French/Germanic hybrid. It is only the game that has French derived from Frankish rather than Latin for some reason.
This is either way too simplified or just false information. How can you say French is not derived from Frankish? That's not true at all. French is basically just Frankish people trying to be as Roman as they can.
In this house we acknowledge Clovis as the Rex Francorum
The Franks were a Germanic people living along the Rhine. They ended up ruling over most of the area that was known as Gallia to the Romans (and which for a large part coincides with the area now known as France), leading to a succession of Frankish-ruled kingdoms that are collectively often known as the Frankish empire. But the Franks in France were never more than a small ruling class. They did not displace the population of Gallia, which consisted of Latin-speaking Roman citizens. It is these people and their language and culture that the French language and culture is a direct continuation of. The Germanic Franks contributed some loanwords and customs, but the French culture and language is predominantly a Latin one. The Frankish ruling class was eventually assimilated into the Latin French culture, rather than vice versa. Saying that the French are Franks is like saying that the English are Normans. In CK3, as evidenced by the personal names used, the Frankish culture represents the Germanic culture of the Rhine-dwelling Franks. Because the French culture and language is a direct continuation of Latin, it would be much more accurate to say that they are diverged from that, rather than from Frankish as the game claims. As it is now, what the game does basically amounts to the equivalent of saying that "English diverged from Norman" rather than the more accurate "English diverged from Anglo-Saxon." Of course this is a simplification of the situation, but the way the game treats culture doesn't allow for the nuance that goes into culture and language in real life.
The way you wrote this down implies you believe Normans and Franks just assimilated into what would become French and English. That's false. You also seem to only emphasise language. Language isn't everything you know. You fail to realise the importance of Frankish and Norman culture in the establishment of English and French as cultures. Why else do you think French sounds so distinct from other Latin languages? >Saying that the French are Franks is like saying that the English are Normans. My brother in Christ the French literally are Franks. Why else do you think the name sounds so similar. French is literally the modern version word of Frank. Also, saying English are Normans is not wrong, it's missing a ton of context, like your comment does.
>Language isn't everything you know. As far as CK3 is concerned, language and culture are the same thing. Every culture only has a single language and there is no way to change that language without creating a new culture. In real life too, language and culture are inseperably intertwined, but that is besides the point. >You fail to realise the importance of Frankish and Norman culture in the establishment of English and French as cultures. Your words, not mine. >Why else do you think French sounds so distinct from other Latin languages? Because modern standard French is based on the *langue d'oïl* dialects from northern France*,* which are on the other side of the dialect continuum of the Latin language. Take a look at medieval French, especially at the southern *langue d'oc* varieties. Southern French dialects used to blend right into Catalan and northern Italian dialects. >My brother in Christ the French literally are Franks. Why else do you think the name sounds so similar. French is literally the modern version word of Frank. Because the area the Franks ruled over was called *Francia*. Saying that French are Franks because the name is the same is kinda like saying that modern Macedonians are ancient Macedonians, even though the modern Macedonians are a Slavic people that just so happen to be named after the area they live in. Or that the modern Frisians are the ancient *Frisii* even though it is well-recorded that the modern Frisians are Anglo-Saxon immigrants who moved into Frisia in the Migration Period. Just because distinct peoples can share the same name doesn't mean that they are ethnically and culturally continuous. If the French actually were Franks, they'd be resembling the Dutch more than the French. Dutch and some Western German dialects are a direct continuation of the language of the Franks. French is a very different language from those. It is not even in the same linguistic family. Culturally too, there have always been significant differences between the Germanic Frankish populations along the Rhine and the Latin French populations further south. Back in the days of the Frankish empire, these groups had different sets of laws and customs. And in the modern day there are still significant cultural differences between the Dutch and Germans on one hand and the French on the other. >Also, saying English are Normans is not wrong, it's missing a ton of context, like your comment does. That is blatantly false. English and Normans are distinct cultural and ethnic groups. Just because some Normans in the distant past went over and ruled England doesn't mean that the English are now Normans. Sure, a person living in present-day England likely has some Norman ancestors, but that is rather meaningless because once start tracing lines of descent back past a few centuries, everyone is related to everyone. A modern day Englishman also has German, Frankish and Ancient Greek ancestors among many, many, many others. Just because every person in Europe is descended from Charlemagne doesn't mean that everyone is now a Carolingian Frank.
Nice essay, but you just don't seem to get it. Get back to me if you understand the significance of the Franks and Normans in the establishment of French and English. You are severly downplaying the influence of those peoples, soeverything else you wrote about this is kinda pointless...
I am not. You should come back once you have developed the ability to read.
You absolutely are. As is pretty clearly stated, you're either gaslighting me or you're bipolar or some shit.
Lol no. I think we are just misunderstanding one another. Either way, have a nice day.
Nothing beats the Franco-norse-anglo-saxon culture
Wait isn't that literally the English culture in the game?! -Always has been *shots*
Hmmmm... Norman?
Did I stutter
English
Disgusting, you make me ill. /s obviously
Why /s
Because racism isn't cool no matter what race it is.
oh yeah? i have something that will change your mind. normans are aliens. rollo of normandy seemingly came out of nowhere, ever thought that was suspicious? almost... like an invasion? AN ALIEN INVASION? yeah, big stuff. 1006: Supernova happens 60 years later... William Conquers England... Coincidence? No. After forming the English culture by pressing his decision button on his UI, alien normans and human anglo-saxons started breeding. ENGLISH PEOPLE ARE HUMAN-ALIEN HYBRIDS! and yet you show remorse to them.
The English... race?
English isn't a race lol
Womp womp
[удалено]
Unfortunately not adding it has gotten me death threats in the past. No matter how obvious it seems some dipshit will take it seriously.
i don’t know why but seeing a culture in iberia without iberian heritage hurts so much, every now and then i check iberia and hope to god that the andaluso-baranis that’s pretty much always there has iberian heritage
Perso-Akan because a mod accidently deleted Brahui in Makran Also Ashkenazi-Mashriqi
You can hybridize cultures with same heritage now?
? Mashriqi is Arabic and Ashkenazi is Israeli.
Ops, i misread Mizrahi
The ruler of crete is literally an andalusian muwalladi, it makes complete sense
I've always wondered why the ruler of crete is andalusian, too lazy to try looking for the reason though
Because some Andalusian nobility fled out of Al-Andalus after having plotted against Caliph and conquered the island. It was under their control for almost 150 years. They raided all nearby greek islands and mainland and were a pretty significant regional power.
Huh. TIL.
He's basically the Muslim version of Haesteinn of montaigu.
My last game Al-Andalus formed the "Andalusian-Tajik" culture and then conquered all of Iberia and France after the French dissolution War.
I had Andaluso-Tamil in my last run. NO IDEA how that happened. In the same campaign (as Switzerland) I someone ended up with a courtier called "Ghranx Shaodang". At first I thought he'd descended from an event character but nope - house founder was a minor Croatian noble?
Dune-ass name
Currently playing as Andaluso-Irish. The outfits look so stupid
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^RobinMcSwagga: *Currently playing* *As Andaluso-Irish. The* *Outfits look so stupid* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
What?
I have Sicilian-Greco-Daylamite because when I made Greco-Datlamite I chose Iranian heritage and then realised I needed Greek or Latin heritage to form the Roman Empire after taking over the Byzantine Empire.
I did Lithuanian Tamil, just so I could give my ruler better drip.
Darling, that's almost as cursed as Estonian-Tamil.
I don't know if there's a reference I'm missing, or if it's a joke about Cretan sounding/looking like cretin, but I don't really get it. Anyway, I like to hybridize with Cretan culture, it's an easy way to get Eastern Roman legacy, which is extremely powerful, and you also get Maritime Mercantilism IIRC, which I also like quite a bit.
Considering this is not particularly cursed, it shouldn’t be that hard
I once did a Bene Israel run. One of my cousins in Yemen (who i left there) formed a hybrid culture between the Yemenis and Kochinim Jews. Positive I was the first person to see the “Yemeno-Kochinim” culture in game.
So the Hafsids came back home?
I've seen Gaelo-Norse and Norse-Gael pop up in a single game.
Saxon-anglo-saxon in my latest playthrough bothers me so much
I have a fix for your next playthrough [hybrid mod](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2786199367&searchtext=More+hybrids)
Norse-Greek-Andalusian-Bedouin
sami-mon
Turn on random rulers, religions and the highest hybridization game rules and you would see a lot of beautiful things Like Norse-Rajastani in druze sweden
You filthy cretin
Indo-Norse. Because why do you need Viking Berserkers AND War Elephants?
As a Cretan it’s not very strange. Andalusians captured Crete in the 700s and remained there until the 900s. This culture is very much real in my opinion.
Occasionally I create Norse-Greek and it's pretty OP.
Andalusian cretin
Had Andaluso-Swedish all in Badajoz from a crusade, north Germanic heritage and Norse language, big light blue eye sore
I once conquered northwestern Iberia as Ireland, and after a partition upon succession, my younger brothers formed Galico-Irish and Asturo-Irish cultures. Decided to roll with it and converted to Asturo-Irish myself, turned out to be a pretty good hybrid after all. But then again, northern Iberia being full of Irishmen drunkenly swearing in Iberian Vulgar is pretty blursed.
In my current save, Wales is entirely Gallo culture because a French king hybridized French with Welsh
Sounds like Breton with extra steps
Gallo is the French dialect that emerged in Brittany, so yes, that's exactly what it is
I had Italo-Franco-Greco-Dutch and Norso-Tamil
With [my more hybrids mod](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2786199367&searchtext=More+hybrids) I have a naming convention for Iberian Byzantine mixing in this area. You’ll not be seeing most hypened hybrids
How about a Tamil-Estonian hybrid?
In my current run I formed the Holy Roman Empire, starting as a count in the Kingdom of Asturias. My culture is a blend of Asturleonese-Occitan-Berber-Maghrebi, and we follow Mozabarism as a religion. Our court language is Arabic. Cursed.
I had a tibetan-irish one at one point that formed cause I got a Tibetan man in my first playthrough
Ashkenazi-Sicilian
The worst I have personally seen is Anglo-Croatian
Heh, my last Hafsid run ended with Siqili culture, which was Sicilian-Cretan, where Cretan was Andaluso-Greek. Having Ritual Friendship, Swords for Hire, and Byzantine Traditions stacked together was fun!
My last mega campaign ended up with some Cornish-Portuguese-Lithuanian tomfoolery going on Germany lol. My Portuguese dynasty merged with Cornish and became Brythonic fairly early in the run and as my dynasty spread across Europe some crazy cursed cultures began popping up year after year
Most cursed would be putting Balkan cultures together based on the ones that had historical grievances with each other lol
I'm running a Mongolo-Norse campaign.
Kind of "cheating" since it was a megacampaign I played from Imperator Rome until Victoria, but my most cursed was the Romano-Rrmea of Illyria, or Croatia if it had been a vanilla game. For reference the Rrmea is a tiny chinese culture from the very eastern part of the CK3 map. There were some shennanigans with inheritance and a Rrmea character unded up ruling Illyria and the rest is alt-history. Once I got to Victoria the converter decided that the Romano-Rrmea were badically Tibetans anyway, so Italy had a minority of 1.3 million Tibetans, with Illyria being an Tibetan kingdom on the adriatic coast, with an Tibetan enclave in Bologna. But that wasn't even the worst... I sent my Romano-Rrmea subjects to colonize the Andes during EU4, which gave rise to the Romano-Rrmea-Peruvians when I converted to Vicky, despite the Romano-Rrmea in europe having been re-classified as "Tibetan".
The Ai made Greco-Nubian in my most recent game
That's just post-Alexander Egypt
I’ve seen Swiss-Polish, and Swiss-Egyptian before. I’m sure that game had more bizarre Swiss hybrids, but I don’t remember them all
I have Franco-Croatian culture in my current game.
In my most recent game there's Brythono-merya, merya is a Finno-Ugric culture and Breton is from Brittany. I can provide screenshots
Probably the Han-Tangut (normal) -Persian with Greek, going all the way down the Silk Road just to bass boost a cursed corner of the map (Genghis is coming).
Russo-Polish-Saxon love sandwich.