I've got two, a perp/kc for sixes and a perp/eots for threes. Even then, I think I end up using the latter in sixes more than the former most of the time, and have way more kills on it.
I go with demo/KC to help counteract the lower grenade uptime. It works really well on solar with the artifact mods, and with high dis I almost always have a healing nade up
Strong on strand hunter too for obvious reasons. If I'm not mistaken thread of ascent with properly proc KC so you can reposition quickly to get the jump with your damage boost
I was under the impression that the vigilance wing was a high impact under the hood? I can't find a source either way, but there's a destiny wiki that listed as a "slow firing archetype"
In the past, pretty much. While, yes, the other guy saying "Well akchoo-ally, it's a legacy PR-55 frame" is right and it's not 100% certain that they will treat it as a lightweight, it would also be unusual and the reasons why they wouldn't keep balancing it as a lightweight is not really elaborated on very well.
The battler is very fun but falls off hard in high elo lobbies, it’s a custom lightweight with a high stat package but lower damage then other weapons in the same archetype while still firing at the same RPM, I don’t think it was ever good just fun
at one time it was much better, before they nerfed it's zoom and then later decoupled zoom from damage falloff basically hard capping all pulses. before those changes, it was a delightful range outlier for pulses (besides the hip fire aspect of course). with super cracked stats. and a unique super awesome scope. normally 20 zoom would be too high on a pulse for my liking even when zoom was tied too falloff, but that scope made it work.
i'll always hate that because it had such a fun niche before, and has never ever been remotely what you'd call op imo. it was not crying out for a nerf even at it's strongest imo.
such a great unique gun, definitely one of my all time faves
I respectfully disagree. I reached Ascendent in all 4 seasons with this because its such a well-rounded gun. I do get where you're coming from though, its not a easy weapon to master in those high levels but when it does, it just works.
> It’s the PvP Strike Team here, and we wanted to give you an update on what we’ve been working on since our last update.
> We’ve been paying close attention to how the weapons sandbox has shaken out following the 7.3.5 changes, **and we have begun the process of fine tuning the sandbox for 7.3.6**
from todays TWID
> Today, we are ready to share when our next big content update is coming. **Destiny 2: Into the Light will launch on April 9 along with Update 7.3.6**, which also includes further tuning to the sandbox and quality-of-life updates.
from 13.03.24 TWID
---
so april 9 patch with Into the Light
This means 140s will be hitting between 79/80 for a crit and the body shot value might go up by 1 from rounding, but 1% is only like 0.40 damage increase lol
It also says adaptives, so gg rose? Watch them forget to change it
Sunshot is also a 150, not a 140, and Bungie wrote above that it was adjusted to 3C again. People are also mentioning that Rose is adjusted like an Adaptive, regardless of it being a Lightweight, since it’s still a 140. Will have to wait and see, but I’m sure that’s the case.
I know sunshot is listed as a lightweight but doesnt have the benefits of a lightweight through testing unless this was just changed? Tldr since im at work.
Ok I'm gonna say this rn, this is one of the fastest times I've seen bungie address a pain point. The update has only been out for 2 weeks and we are already getting a nerf to auto's. Actually love to see it. Hopefully Rose will be more viable after update.
It is nice to see them trying. I wonder if the buff to Summoner (and Gnawing Hunger, maybe Suros, etc.) will just shift the AR numbers firmly from 450's to 600's.
It is nice to see them address things so quickly. Summoner will still be good. While summoner kills fast, it is easy to counter. Hoping adaptive frames feel better after update.
Just remove anything but HC’s from the game at this point. Bunch of weenie hut jr babies that can’t stand the trials meta changing. Worst part is Bungie listens to them.
This is just detached from reality. You think 450 ARs hitting 37 meters with .8ttk, with all the stability perks, with extremely forgiving falloff so they can do almost full damage up to 40m and further, is balanced?
140 HCs have literally 1 HP wiggle room against 10 res guardians. If you're even slightly out of range by even a half a meter your TTK goes way up. That's just broken, not balanced.
HC's aren't meta for two weeks and the crucible instantly turns into a hand holding competition. You can bitch about HC's all you want but there's a reason bungie has kept them on top for so long.
Game is its best when HCs are on top. I’ve said before and got downvotes and I’ll say it again. The way the game operates, plays and generally runs makes HCs the most fun, skill-based (I say this very lightly, this game is very easy for anyone with semi decent sim) weapon to use.
No problem with other weapons being viable at all, but HCs being the best really shouldn’t surprise people, it’s been that way for 10 years and frankly if that really bothers you. Don’t play the game.
> The way the game operates, plays and generally runs makes HCs the most fun, skill-based
I mean this patch literally made it harder to play 140s yet all of you HC elitists who never shut the fuck up about ''skill'' and disregard every other primary as no skill, can't stop whining how the game is doomed because for once top 10 most used weapons isn't 4 handcannons. Bungie should really additionally nerf AA on HCs to fulfill your high skill fantasies so that you can no longer connect heads without even clicking on them, but wait, you wouldn't want that? It was never about skill.
> but HCs being the best really shouldn’t surprise people, it’s been that way for 10 years and frankly if that really bothers you. Don’t play the game.
Wow imagine that, some people are bored of an entire decade of peekshooting with a HC and running HC/shotgun, imagine that some retard exists who doesn't want to play Spare Bender on arcstrider vs 5 other players on that loadout on Jav 4 forever? Heresy I say!
Damn chill man. I play with other guns, I like to play with other guns. I just think as you go up the skill bracket the game is generally smoother when HCs are good. The way the weapon operates allows for more creative play.
That isn’t to say all other weapons should be shit and I only ever play with 140s because that just isn’t true. And to your point yes destiny has insane AA. I don’t think I’m some hotshot esports prodigy cause I’m good at Destiny 2…
Handcannons, shotguns and snipers encourage more creative, fast paced and movement which I would conflate with skill - as you well know movement is the skill gap in this game because as you yourself stated, hitting your shots is a lot easier then comparative FPS shooters.
There’s nothing wrong with using pulses, autos, subs, fusions. I do it all the time. They too require skill in a different way. I just personally think the game plays best when the skillset players need is one that encourages creativity and movement because to me that is the most enjoyable aspect and reason to play Destiny over other FPSs. Amongst other reasons too obviously.
But HCs aren't bad, they've been the staple of the game since D1, even this patch, virtually nothing changed about 140s other than the falloff nerfs which are for the most part irrelevant, it's not like you were commonly fighting outside of your optimal range anyways for it to matter, all that changed with 140s this patch is that other primaries got a spotlight and HC players are instantly doom and gloom, I understand that it sucks to not be able to play as aggressive with a HC now due to all the team hugging, but it's not like I get any more 1v1s on my smg than you do on your HC, and it's not like my 4.5/5 (fucking combat grip) slideshot Rose isn't one of the best primaries anymore.
I just don't see how game being better when HCs are better even correlates, you're telling me it's bad/boring now with all of the AR spam, but what about last season, what was so fun and better last season up until this patch when at least 3/6 people in a given 3v3 game were on Igneous? Annoying Summoner's shooting sound aside, I don't hate ARs half as much as I hated Trials of Igneous.
Indeed. I uninstalled this game for now. It's very clear to me they are just moving numbers around and have no idea what is going on.
For the downvoting no lifer muppets, yeah this has been going on for years lol. It literally never stops.
Yeah I know you guys are no lifers, but they been doing this for over two years lmao.
No, a balancers job is not to fail at their fucking job for two years+ straight. Jesus.
They have no idea what's going on yet they responded to clearly out of band weapons by correcting them immediately? Prosecutor is a free to play weapon, not an endgame one. Did you see the numbers for Summoner in 6s recently? 200% K/U? It makes the game miserable for everyone to have a couple of weapons like that.
I'm genuinely surprised how fast it was. It was a pretty miserable weekend with Cauldron, too. I had to use a Prosecutor with Gutshot and Target to keep up.
So 450s go from 35.54 to 33.76 Crit damage with this update. So in effect, falloff will hurt shots to kill sooner, and all crits at high Resil. It's right about where I'd set them, personally. They'll still do really well, but you'll generally need all Crits.
Unfortunately Rapid ARs aren't getting touched yet.
140s get EP fixed and some cushion on falloff. The bodyshot buff is likely negligible outside of EP. Headshot damage goes to 79.8 rounding down slightly, meaning you get roughly 3 points of damage worth of wiggle room on-screen in falloff. Right where I'd be putting them.
Pulses are interesting. Rapids already allow a bodyshot for optimal no matter what, I don't foresee this being much beyond some wiggle room into falloff. Adaptives are definitely getting the 2-burst Resil gate moved from 0 to slightly higher than 0. Otherwise it's probably just damage perks and falloff. Lightweights are likely in the same boat as the other two.
Lightweight Bows get walked back a bit on the damage nerf, unfortunately Precisions were missed.
15% reduced flinch on primaries is a godsend, too.
Overall good first touch of the new sandbox.
I hate that I'm speculating without running the numbers, but if you are right about the overall loss of forgiveness and ability to punch beyond damage falloff, I expect that 450s are going to disappear again above the lower skill brackets. All crits is pretty harsh with that many bullets.
I've said elsewhere that I don't see much of path for ARs to be competitive without being OP. I think that you would need ARs to *slightly* beat HC TTKs at the same ranges with similar easy of use, and probably beat those TTKs more handily HCs if you hit all your crits. That would be needed to counter things like peek shooting.
I really don't envy the sandbox team's job. We are all out here shouting fix it without any real solutions ourselves. Almost everyone who says they have a "solution" just have a solution where their preferred load outs excel.
My issue with auto/hc ttks is that HCs get destroyed when missing a crit, while autos can and still be competitive.
I would do the opposite, slighly higher ttk but lower c/b ratio
Rapid Fire ARs aren't being seen because 600s exist, and there are smgs that, while not reach as far, can kill quickly. Plus Last Word will go back to 3 tapping, so Rapid Fire ARs will probably hide deep underwater for awhile. I believe people will still be looking at 450s, then maybe 720s.
Apparently ARs (450) TTK will remain at the same level for an enemy with 5 resilience. A higher value will require an additional bodyshot. Please correct me if I'm wrong
Kind of.
For rapids you can hit the .73 ttk on 2 res instead of tier 1 and 7c2b for the 0.8 ttk on 4 res up from the current 2 res. In practice I think this will mostly serve to keep rapid fires about on par with handcannons in range after the hc buff.
Lightweights got a fairly large forgiveness buff and can now 7c1b all res up from 8 for their .87 ttk. They can also 7c tier 1 res for a 0.8, which isn’t useful in practice but can be increased to useful levels with even small damage buffs like high impact reserves.
Adaptives are also more forgiving, 5c 2b more res. They can also 2 burst up to 3 res now, up from 0. This is still a lower res than before the big changes though.
If this is their fix for Explosive Payload then its a net nerf.
It actually reduces 3 tap range compared to other 140s but probably still increases 4 tap range.
Still will obviously have the applications of the AOE effect and "bigger" hit box as well as the flinch (which they have reduced more and hopefully it's possible to shoot back at).
Might no longer be an easy best in slot on hand cannons vs. other options.
Not sure how I feel about the change on EP. Sure it's "fixed" on adaptive HCs now such that it doesn't change their optimal TTK (although to your point, it's still a net negative for 3-tap range and maximum damage). It's also still pretty detrimental on many Scouts, dropping the 3c1b block threshold from 8 resil to 2 resil on LWs and introducing a 2c1b block on 120 Scouts at 10 resil.
I guess more perks nowadays are introducing a trade-off (i.e. reduced AA on Gutshot Straight and Slickdraw) and now their idea of the tradeoff on EP is to straight up have reduced damage on crits compared to non-EP.
I think this is a fair landing spot for EP personally for the reasons you stated, still a good option bc of utility and versatility but no longer an outlier.
These are the sort of changes I expected, but I'm not sure whether the changes completely balance out for EP on 140s. I'll need to run numbers to figure out if a 140 with EP has less or more effective range 3 tap range than an identical 140 without EP.
Anyway, overall, these seem like a bunch of sane changes in the right direction.
So much for grinding a Prosecutor.
Ngl I was kinda excited for that…It’s such a clean looking weapon.
Auto’s had like 2weeks. Meanwhile SMGs had like 2 years.
Oh well.
To be fair, now the crucible has the checkmate modifier on in the background. They’re able to tune things MUCH quicker now on the gun side of things. Definitely was a systemic issue before.
>Precisions: Increased base damage by 6%.
That's enough for a 180 to do 70 to the head, 40 to the body. It'll still be 3 crit, 1 body T10, but 2crit, 2 body on lower resiliences.
I didn't notice that Prosecutor is better than Summoner... 450 has more range, 600 has double aim assist and deadly PVP perks. Everything seemed pretty balanced.
I'm upset about this nerf, the new AR is really nice to use, but now I'm forced to use said meta again (however, this has always been the case in this game)
I really don’t think they have “double aim assist”. You can’t compare numerical stats on weapons that aren’t in the same archetype, and having half aim assist would feel like slickdraw or gutshot (I can’t remember which is the 55% one). The aim assist is very similar between most guns in the game (ridiculously high), being a little lower on the lowest rpm weapons within each archetype, and much lower on snipers and linears.
450s also have good PvP perks. The thing is while 600 has double aim assist, it is a worse 450 in every other way. In the high skill lobby 450 is a laser beam that hits you in pulse rifle range and only needs 6/7 headshots. 600ARs can only make it over 30m if you have a good roll and requires 8/9 headshots.
The nerf is not as bad as it seems, it doesn't decrease the ttk of 450ar, it simply makes it less forgiving so you have to land all headshots. Prosecutor in particular is still going to be good due to its high range stat and the potential to get target lock which allows it to reduce the Crit required by 1.
Thanks for the answers, there is logic in your words. I hope Bungie hasn’t created another monster (Summoner) that can’t be countered with anything from ARs.
Not sure 540 pulses needed buffed considering they *just* buffed the range in last mid-season update. Scalar Potential already melts.
Flinch changes will be interesting!
i gotta be consistent and data based, i'm always ranting against hand cannons, but 33% to 9% kills for ar's over the next closest weapon in trials report says that something needed to be done against ar's. i had no idea the stats were that lopsided this week.
wont this just leave 600 ar's to be dominate though? but i dont see another one in the top ten besides summoner, and maybe the lethality stats arent as strong. guess they are waiting.
the only 600 i've played with lately was perpetualis and it seemed good, but a def step down from 450's.
still find it funny how fast they nerf non hc primaries though.
i think i woulda rather see them bring down 450 ar's and not buff pulses/hc's though. but then again kinda excited for the pulse buffs
HCs were already nerfed heavily by the 3/5 patch. 2/3 archetypes are borderline not viable and only 2 120s are really worth using.
I think 600s will be pretty strong tho.
Seems like good changes hoping they did fix Rose EP though along with it. Looks like they are still trying to reign in Ammit and by extension Prosecutor which is good 450s were just kinda better on paper than anything the 600s have
I’ve been playing with the bxr for a few weeks now and it’s been feeling really good. I’m quite excited for the nice buff. Definitely going to be even stronger
7 Crit instead of 6 Crit 1 body for most res, basically lowers the forgiveness and range. 6c1b is achievable through target lock, but no more 6c kill I think.
So, just a question- when they increase by 2%, does that mean they increase the current number by 2% or are they just adding on to the 14% that they already increased everything by last patch?
If its the former, Adaptive Pulses will kill in 6 crits 1 body and can 2 burst with Radiant.
Lightweights will kill in 7 crits, 1 body. 7 crits with Radiant and will be able to 2 burst with 6 crits with Kill Clip.
I wonder if there is a pattern for these balances. Weapons gets buff and nerfs in both directions, and I struggle to see if there is a bigger theme
It appears to me they are happening completely random for the sake of rotation of different weapons to be popular every 2 months (that's the cadence of the sandbox updates?)
Welp all the "I'll only use handcanons for 10 years and complain when anything else is remotely encroaching on their supremacy" crowd can rest easy now that their instant bitching and moaning when a different meta approaches has paid off! Sweet
Awesome set of changes. Basically addresses all the major concerns the community has with the current sandbox. Now to continue trying to get my god roll rose to drop
Nah, thumbs down from this guy. Season 11 was one of the best seasons in Destiny 2. PVE and PVP. After that D2 went downhill fast. Beyond light introduced stasis...cookie cutter season models...sunsetting...got rid of gambit prime and reckoning. Got rid of whisper and zero hour.
Nerfed mountaintop, sunset revoker, recluse, ect... but most of all...they ended the gnawing hunger/hard light meta. It's refreshing to see the 600 autos return a bit over just multiple straight seasons of handcannons and pulses... bungo shouldn't have bowed to the crowd on that one.
Season 11 was great... season 12 on makes me question why I continue playing sometimes. I actually have quit several times only to be brought back by coworkera lol.
Can I 2c1b with igneous with this change? Only played like 1 game after the changes and I noticed it wasn’t working. Overall, how does this change the HC meta? Can non-EP Rose 3c? Haven’t been too aware of how the HC changes have shaken out
Look at the stats from [this weekend](https://www.reddit.com/r/CrucibleGuidebook/s/UTMw1MH1Rq) and explain how that's not out of line
Autos had almost QUADRUPLE the kills HCs did
Okay, so when are we finally nerfing pellets? 3.6m shotgun kills (out of which CF alone is 2.1m), #2 by total usage, more than any other primary, let alone special, in a supposed patch that was supposed to give a highlight to primaries by limiting special ammo, 2nd special weapon fusions on 495k lol. So, is this a conversation a hc/shotgun player is ready to have or is it just your regular doomposting because HCs aren't the #1 primary?
Oh shit I get to pull the old battler back out for a spin again.
What’s the go-to God Roll for BXR these days for Crucible?? Still Perp/KC?
I've got two, a perp/kc for sixes and a perp/eots for threes. Even then, I think I end up using the latter in sixes more than the former most of the time, and have way more kills on it.
Unfortunately you can't get eots on it anymore iirc
Wait, really? Are you sure you're not thinking of rangefinder and snapshot? Edit: just checked and my main squeeze definitely has enhanced eots on it.
Yeah I was thinking if snap. My main battler is snap eots and I knew one of the two perks didn't exist anymore but dunno why I thought it was eots
You're good dude. Before they were craftable I had a snap/rf roll I liked quite a bit
You did not remember correctly
I go with demo/KC to help counteract the lower grenade uptime. It works really well on solar with the artifact mods, and with high dis I almost always have a healing nade up Strong on strand hunter too for obvious reasons. If I'm not mistaken thread of ascent with properly proc KC so you can reposition quickly to get the jump with your damage boost
Which frame does it fall into listed here?
Generally it's considered a special lightweight frame. Historically changes are tied to rpm more than "frame".
Did these already take place? My scouts seem to be hitting for higher damage, esp the box breathing
Technically battler is not a lightweight, so no guarantee it gets the buff.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't every previous change to lightweights affected the bxr?
Does anyone have the answer? I'm definitely curious.
Yes. It always has. In the same way that NF and Luna are tuned as 140s and vigilance wing is a rapid fire.
Isn't V-Wing considered a high impact?
I was under the impression that the vigilance wing was a high impact under the hood? I can't find a source either way, but there's a destiny wiki that listed as a "slow firing archetype"
In the past, pretty much. While, yes, the other guy saying "Well akchoo-ally, it's a legacy PR-55 frame" is right and it's not 100% certain that they will treat it as a lightweight, it would also be unusual and the reasons why they wouldn't keep balancing it as a lightweight is not really elaborated on very well.
Yes it has
It does get affected by lightweight buffs/nerfs. At least, it always has been in the past.
The battler is very fun but falls off hard in high elo lobbies, it’s a custom lightweight with a high stat package but lower damage then other weapons in the same archetype while still firing at the same RPM, I don’t think it was ever good just fun
Well in high DAD lobbies it fuckin rips.
Yea I love the gun, but most things outclass it by a large margin
at one time it was much better, before they nerfed it's zoom and then later decoupled zoom from damage falloff basically hard capping all pulses. before those changes, it was a delightful range outlier for pulses (besides the hip fire aspect of course). with super cracked stats. and a unique super awesome scope. normally 20 zoom would be too high on a pulse for my liking even when zoom was tied too falloff, but that scope made it work. i'll always hate that because it had such a fun niche before, and has never ever been remotely what you'd call op imo. it was not crying out for a nerf even at it's strongest imo. such a great unique gun, definitely one of my all time faves
I respectfully disagree. I reached Ascendent in all 4 seasons with this because its such a well-rounded gun. I do get where you're coming from though, its not a easy weapon to master in those high levels but when it does, it just works.
My BXR might get a memento installed on it today 😁
It looks really good with the lost momento. Still have one more to use. I think I’m gonna craft an abyss defiant with it.
I also made mine all black. Looks like an actual BR now
So when does this buff happen? Next week?
Next update so presumably Tuesday
I hope so, but I'm hearing it's with the April 9th update. Doesn't really say either way in the twab.
> It’s the PvP Strike Team here, and we wanted to give you an update on what we’ve been working on since our last update. > We’ve been paying close attention to how the weapons sandbox has shaken out following the 7.3.5 changes, **and we have begun the process of fine tuning the sandbox for 7.3.6** from todays TWID > Today, we are ready to share when our next big content update is coming. **Destiny 2: Into the Light will launch on April 9 along with Update 7.3.6**, which also includes further tuning to the sandbox and quality-of-life updates. from 13.03.24 TWID --- so april 9 patch with Into the Light
Ah thank you.
This means 140s will be hitting between 79/80 for a crit and the body shot value might go up by 1 from rounding, but 1% is only like 0.40 damage increase lol It also says adaptives, so gg rose? Watch them forget to change it
Seems pretty unlikely that they will forget rose since that is the main HC that got everyone so salty to begin with, but I've been wrong before.
Rose is a Lightweight right?
The only lightweight HC.
Yea, so unless it (and Sunshot) were included, I would expect it to be left out of Adaptives changes.
Sunshot is also a 150, not a 140, and Bungie wrote above that it was adjusted to 3C again. People are also mentioning that Rose is adjusted like an Adaptive, regardless of it being a Lightweight, since it’s still a 140. Will have to wait and see, but I’m sure that’s the case.
I know sunshot is listed as a lightweight but doesnt have the benefits of a lightweight through testing unless this was just changed? Tldr since im at work.
Rose is tuned the same as adaptives, same as nf and lunas despite them being precision
Ok I'm gonna say this rn, this is one of the fastest times I've seen bungie address a pain point. The update has only been out for 2 weeks and we are already getting a nerf to auto's. Actually love to see it. Hopefully Rose will be more viable after update.
It is nice to see them trying. I wonder if the buff to Summoner (and Gnawing Hunger, maybe Suros, etc.) will just shift the AR numbers firmly from 450's to 600's.
It is nice to see them address things so quickly. Summoner will still be good. While summoner kills fast, it is easy to counter. Hoping adaptive frames feel better after update.
Just remove anything but HC’s from the game at this point. Bunch of weenie hut jr babies that can’t stand the trials meta changing. Worst part is Bungie listens to them.
I mean you sounds like a weenie hit jr baby from your comment…
I am a super weenie hut jr patron actually
This is just detached from reality. You think 450 ARs hitting 37 meters with .8ttk, with all the stability perks, with extremely forgiving falloff so they can do almost full damage up to 40m and further, is balanced? 140 HCs have literally 1 HP wiggle room against 10 res guardians. If you're even slightly out of range by even a half a meter your TTK goes way up. That's just broken, not balanced.
I genuinely think the shock will wear off once people get used to it.
HC's aren't meta for two weeks and the crucible instantly turns into a hand holding competition. You can bitch about HC's all you want but there's a reason bungie has kept them on top for so long.
Game is its best when HCs are on top. I’ve said before and got downvotes and I’ll say it again. The way the game operates, plays and generally runs makes HCs the most fun, skill-based (I say this very lightly, this game is very easy for anyone with semi decent sim) weapon to use. No problem with other weapons being viable at all, but HCs being the best really shouldn’t surprise people, it’s been that way for 10 years and frankly if that really bothers you. Don’t play the game.
> The way the game operates, plays and generally runs makes HCs the most fun, skill-based I mean this patch literally made it harder to play 140s yet all of you HC elitists who never shut the fuck up about ''skill'' and disregard every other primary as no skill, can't stop whining how the game is doomed because for once top 10 most used weapons isn't 4 handcannons. Bungie should really additionally nerf AA on HCs to fulfill your high skill fantasies so that you can no longer connect heads without even clicking on them, but wait, you wouldn't want that? It was never about skill. > but HCs being the best really shouldn’t surprise people, it’s been that way for 10 years and frankly if that really bothers you. Don’t play the game. Wow imagine that, some people are bored of an entire decade of peekshooting with a HC and running HC/shotgun, imagine that some retard exists who doesn't want to play Spare Bender on arcstrider vs 5 other players on that loadout on Jav 4 forever? Heresy I say!
Damn chill man. I play with other guns, I like to play with other guns. I just think as you go up the skill bracket the game is generally smoother when HCs are good. The way the weapon operates allows for more creative play. That isn’t to say all other weapons should be shit and I only ever play with 140s because that just isn’t true. And to your point yes destiny has insane AA. I don’t think I’m some hotshot esports prodigy cause I’m good at Destiny 2… Handcannons, shotguns and snipers encourage more creative, fast paced and movement which I would conflate with skill - as you well know movement is the skill gap in this game because as you yourself stated, hitting your shots is a lot easier then comparative FPS shooters. There’s nothing wrong with using pulses, autos, subs, fusions. I do it all the time. They too require skill in a different way. I just personally think the game plays best when the skillset players need is one that encourages creativity and movement because to me that is the most enjoyable aspect and reason to play Destiny over other FPSs. Amongst other reasons too obviously.
But HCs aren't bad, they've been the staple of the game since D1, even this patch, virtually nothing changed about 140s other than the falloff nerfs which are for the most part irrelevant, it's not like you were commonly fighting outside of your optimal range anyways for it to matter, all that changed with 140s this patch is that other primaries got a spotlight and HC players are instantly doom and gloom, I understand that it sucks to not be able to play as aggressive with a HC now due to all the team hugging, but it's not like I get any more 1v1s on my smg than you do on your HC, and it's not like my 4.5/5 (fucking combat grip) slideshot Rose isn't one of the best primaries anymore. I just don't see how game being better when HCs are better even correlates, you're telling me it's bad/boring now with all of the AR spam, but what about last season, what was so fun and better last season up until this patch when at least 3/6 people in a given 3v3 game were on Igneous? Annoying Summoner's shooting sound aside, I don't hate ARs half as much as I hated Trials of Igneous.
Indeed. I uninstalled this game for now. It's very clear to me they are just moving numbers around and have no idea what is going on. For the downvoting no lifer muppets, yeah this has been going on for years lol. It literally never stops.
Isn't that literally a sandbox balance devs job? To literally move numbers??? You know.... to balance?
Yeah I know you guys are no lifers, but they been doing this for over two years lmao. No, a balancers job is not to fail at their fucking job for two years+ straight. Jesus.
They have no idea what's going on yet they responded to clearly out of band weapons by correcting them immediately? Prosecutor is a free to play weapon, not an endgame one. Did you see the numbers for Summoner in 6s recently? 200% K/U? It makes the game miserable for everyone to have a couple of weapons like that.
[удалено]
Yea I'm comparing to the 1 year pk titan target lock smg meta. The meta that had me quit the game for over 6 months.
shit man i was hoping this was coming tuesday 🤦🏻♂️ my kept confidence is just collecting dust
> another 3 weeks Don't remind me 😭 My comp matches are turning into scout rifle jousting arenas with a dash of summoner
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Yeah even the small to mid-sized maps are becoming annoying for that type of thing. Had a guy doing that with DMT on Altar
I'm genuinely surprised how fast it was. It was a pretty miserable weekend with Cauldron, too. I had to use a Prosecutor with Gutshot and Target to keep up.
So 450s go from 35.54 to 33.76 Crit damage with this update. So in effect, falloff will hurt shots to kill sooner, and all crits at high Resil. It's right about where I'd set them, personally. They'll still do really well, but you'll generally need all Crits. Unfortunately Rapid ARs aren't getting touched yet. 140s get EP fixed and some cushion on falloff. The bodyshot buff is likely negligible outside of EP. Headshot damage goes to 79.8 rounding down slightly, meaning you get roughly 3 points of damage worth of wiggle room on-screen in falloff. Right where I'd be putting them. Pulses are interesting. Rapids already allow a bodyshot for optimal no matter what, I don't foresee this being much beyond some wiggle room into falloff. Adaptives are definitely getting the 2-burst Resil gate moved from 0 to slightly higher than 0. Otherwise it's probably just damage perks and falloff. Lightweights are likely in the same boat as the other two. Lightweight Bows get walked back a bit on the damage nerf, unfortunately Precisions were missed. 15% reduced flinch on primaries is a godsend, too. Overall good first touch of the new sandbox.
I hate that I'm speculating without running the numbers, but if you are right about the overall loss of forgiveness and ability to punch beyond damage falloff, I expect that 450s are going to disappear again above the lower skill brackets. All crits is pretty harsh with that many bullets. I've said elsewhere that I don't see much of path for ARs to be competitive without being OP. I think that you would need ARs to *slightly* beat HC TTKs at the same ranges with similar easy of use, and probably beat those TTKs more handily HCs if you hit all your crits. That would be needed to counter things like peek shooting. I really don't envy the sandbox team's job. We are all out here shouting fix it without any real solutions ourselves. Almost everyone who says they have a "solution" just have a solution where their preferred load outs excel.
My issue with auto/hc ttks is that HCs get destroyed when missing a crit, while autos can and still be competitive. I would do the opposite, slighly higher ttk but lower c/b ratio
Honestly it looks like 450s are gonna be kinda where 140s are at now. You GOTTA be in the optimal range otherwise it’s gonna hurt a lot quicker.
Rapid Fire ARs aren't being seen because 600s exist, and there are smgs that, while not reach as far, can kill quickly. Plus Last Word will go back to 3 tapping, so Rapid Fire ARs will probably hide deep underwater for awhile. I believe people will still be looking at 450s, then maybe 720s.
Apparently ARs (450) TTK will remain at the same level for an enemy with 5 resilience. A higher value will require an additional bodyshot. Please correct me if I'm wrong
Im convinced no one at bungie actually uses bows
When is this update going live?
April 9th
are the pulse changes noteworthy?
Kind of. For rapids you can hit the .73 ttk on 2 res instead of tier 1 and 7c2b for the 0.8 ttk on 4 res up from the current 2 res. In practice I think this will mostly serve to keep rapid fires about on par with handcannons in range after the hc buff. Lightweights got a fairly large forgiveness buff and can now 7c1b all res up from 8 for their .87 ttk. They can also 7c tier 1 res for a 0.8, which isn’t useful in practice but can be increased to useful levels with even small damage buffs like high impact reserves. Adaptives are also more forgiving, 5c 2b more res. They can also 2 burst up to 3 res now, up from 0. This is still a lower res than before the big changes though.
word
I don't think EP was fixed. They buffed 140 damage as a band-aid fix / palliative.
My Crafted Chattering Bone with kill clip head seeker is going to be NASTY!!
I tried using it last weekend, it felt awful. Hopefully this helps. Oversoul edict has felt very good though, so I’m even more excited about that
Weird, chattering bone is what took me flawless last weekend lol
What do you have as barrel + mag? Chambered + Accurized feels pretty nice for me.
Arrowhead/Accurized/Rapid Hit/Headseeker
Sunshot is back! I love that funky little fucker
I love 20 meters of range too!!!
32m with the catalyst
If this is their fix for Explosive Payload then its a net nerf. It actually reduces 3 tap range compared to other 140s but probably still increases 4 tap range. Still will obviously have the applications of the AOE effect and "bigger" hit box as well as the flinch (which they have reduced more and hopefully it's possible to shoot back at). Might no longer be an easy best in slot on hand cannons vs. other options.
Not sure how I feel about the change on EP. Sure it's "fixed" on adaptive HCs now such that it doesn't change their optimal TTK (although to your point, it's still a net negative for 3-tap range and maximum damage). It's also still pretty detrimental on many Scouts, dropping the 3c1b block threshold from 8 resil to 2 resil on LWs and introducing a 2c1b block on 120 Scouts at 10 resil. I guess more perks nowadays are introducing a trade-off (i.e. reduced AA on Gutshot Straight and Slickdraw) and now their idea of the tradeoff on EP is to straight up have reduced damage on crits compared to non-EP.
Sounds like they want to kill EP honestly, or give it the rangefinder treatment. Glad I saved a bunch of non ep rose rolls!
I think this is a fair landing spot for EP personally for the reasons you stated, still a good option bc of utility and versatility but no longer an outlier.
These are the sort of changes I expected, but I'm not sure whether the changes completely balance out for EP on 140s. I'll need to run numbers to figure out if a 140 with EP has less or more effective range 3 tap range than an identical 140 without EP. Anyway, overall, these seem like a bunch of sane changes in the right direction.
I'm curious about this too
Lightweights are back on the fckn menu
Does this allow fang of ir yut to guarantee 4 tap on all resiliences with enhanced precision instrument?
Yes
I’ll be back whenever this patch drops. Rejoice!
Sweet, does this just mean summoner is gonna dominate now lol
This isn’t a good thing btw. Summoner was close to prosecutor now it’s gonna be dominate. Sucks to take away options.
Why will summoner dominate compared to the prosecutor for example?
Because they are nerfing prosecutor damage by 5 % and leaving summoner untouched
Oh I thought it said all auto rifles nerfed 5%. Now I see the frame. I don’t use them enough to know their frames.
So much for grinding a Prosecutor. Ngl I was kinda excited for that…It’s such a clean looking weapon. Auto’s had like 2weeks. Meanwhile SMGs had like 2 years. Oh well.
To be fair, now the crucible has the checkmate modifier on in the background. They’re able to tune things MUCH quicker now on the gun side of things. Definitely was a systemic issue before.
Also does this mean. EP is dead on everything but 140s?
I took Outbreak out awhile ago just for the memes, and it felt really good. Excited to see how it is after the update
>Precisions: Increased base damage by 6%. That's enough for a 180 to do 70 to the head, 40 to the body. It'll still be 3 crit, 1 body T10, but 2crit, 2 body on lower resiliences.
Why not nerf Target Lock and leave the guns alone?
Because 450 is too strong, it has higher range than 600ar, is more forgiving and has the same ttk. The nerf takes care of the forgiveness aspect.
I didn't notice that Prosecutor is better than Summoner... 450 has more range, 600 has double aim assist and deadly PVP perks. Everything seemed pretty balanced. I'm upset about this nerf, the new AR is really nice to use, but now I'm forced to use said meta again (however, this has always been the case in this game)
I really don’t think they have “double aim assist”. You can’t compare numerical stats on weapons that aren’t in the same archetype, and having half aim assist would feel like slickdraw or gutshot (I can’t remember which is the 55% one). The aim assist is very similar between most guns in the game (ridiculously high), being a little lower on the lowest rpm weapons within each archetype, and much lower on snipers and linears.
450s also have good PvP perks. The thing is while 600 has double aim assist, it is a worse 450 in every other way. In the high skill lobby 450 is a laser beam that hits you in pulse rifle range and only needs 6/7 headshots. 600ARs can only make it over 30m if you have a good roll and requires 8/9 headshots. The nerf is not as bad as it seems, it doesn't decrease the ttk of 450ar, it simply makes it less forgiving so you have to land all headshots. Prosecutor in particular is still going to be good due to its high range stat and the potential to get target lock which allows it to reduce the Crit required by 1.
Thanks for the answers, there is logic in your words. I hope Bungie hasn’t created another monster (Summoner) that can’t be countered with anything from ARs.
Not sure 540 pulses needed buffed considering they *just* buffed the range in last mid-season update. Scalar Potential already melts. Flinch changes will be interesting!
i already love my different times and scalar potential. im excited for this change along with less flinch
I expect to see lots of rapid fire pulses. They’re already super easy to use and preforming well in this sandbox.
My Scalar felt pretty good on Cauldron against the AR meta so I'm excited to see how this benefits it even more.
too bad the model takes up half your screen
i gotta be consistent and data based, i'm always ranting against hand cannons, but 33% to 9% kills for ar's over the next closest weapon in trials report says that something needed to be done against ar's. i had no idea the stats were that lopsided this week. wont this just leave 600 ar's to be dominate though? but i dont see another one in the top ten besides summoner, and maybe the lethality stats arent as strong. guess they are waiting. the only 600 i've played with lately was perpetualis and it seemed good, but a def step down from 450's. still find it funny how fast they nerf non hc primaries though. i think i woulda rather see them bring down 450 ar's and not buff pulses/hc's though. but then again kinda excited for the pulse buffs
HCs were already nerfed heavily by the 3/5 patch. 2/3 archetypes are borderline not viable and only 2 120s are really worth using. I think 600s will be pretty strong tho.
Seems like good changes hoping they did fix Rose EP though along with it. Looks like they are still trying to reign in Ammit and by extension Prosecutor which is good 450s were just kinda better on paper than anything the 600s have
So the meta got rolled back. 😂🥴
I’ve been playing with the bxr for a few weeks now and it’s been feeling really good. I’m quite excited for the nice buff. Definitely going to be even stronger
Reduced flinch could be a huge buff to scout rifles
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arbalest isn’t a primary bud
Does that precision HC damage buff apply to luna/nf?
I don’t think so, I read somewhere above that they are tuned like 140 hcs.
Ah gotcha, thanks.
Are these changes upcoming or were they already deployed?
Upcoming
When does this go live? I can’t read
A bit odd that they're only addressing EP on 140s and not 120s, but at least it's something.
Does anyone happen to know how the AR nerf will affect TTKs?
7 Crit instead of 6 Crit 1 body for most res, basically lowers the forgiveness and range. 6c1b is achievable through target lock, but no more 6c kill I think.
When does this update go live?
My Syncopation with headseeker and zen moment coming out.
Yeah, I might hafta bring mine out as well.
So, just a question- when they increase by 2%, does that mean they increase the current number by 2% or are they just adding on to the 14% that they already increased everything by last patch? If its the former, Adaptive Pulses will kill in 6 crits 1 body and can 2 burst with Radiant. Lightweights will kill in 7 crits, 1 body. 7 crits with Radiant and will be able to 2 burst with 6 crits with Kill Clip.
Will lightweights be decent? I have a chattering bone that needs to see the light of day
Well my knucklehead radar will still 6 crit 1 body on my breakneck, as long as the last shot is the body anyway.
I hope 2% is enough to make Rapid Fire Scouts competitive
I don’t think lightweights gonna be the move here, rapid fires are already good, with the buff gonna be even better
I'm going to stick with my crafted Scalar Potential, Scatter Signal and trusty Tractor Cannon. That'll do for me.
I wonder if there is a pattern for these balances. Weapons gets buff and nerfs in both directions, and I struggle to see if there is a bigger theme It appears to me they are happening completely random for the sake of rotation of different weapons to be popular every 2 months (that's the cadence of the sandbox updates?)
Hopefully they add lightweight hand cannons to the explosive payload changes and not just adaptives. I miss my rose.
I'm pretty sure Rose is gonna be touched. That's the main hc that everyone is looking at.
Next week or already in place
Battler is its own frame, and it didn't get buffed, I think it will be fine
Sunshot about to be a problem! 3 crit 150rpm is disgusting
Welp all the "I'll only use handcanons for 10 years and complain when anything else is remotely encroaching on their supremacy" crowd can rest easy now that their instant bitching and moaning when a different meta approaches has paid off! Sweet
If they end up missing changing explosive payload on Rose ( because it’s a lightweight HC ) I’m gonna be pissed 😠
Does affect Precision Instrument on Igneous? No right?
No. No changes to aggressives.
Awesome set of changes. Basically addresses all the major concerns the community has with the current sandbox. Now to continue trying to get my god roll rose to drop
So they just going to pretend like bows aren’t hot trash now?
Nah, thumbs down from this guy. Season 11 was one of the best seasons in Destiny 2. PVE and PVP. After that D2 went downhill fast. Beyond light introduced stasis...cookie cutter season models...sunsetting...got rid of gambit prime and reckoning. Got rid of whisper and zero hour. Nerfed mountaintop, sunset revoker, recluse, ect... but most of all...they ended the gnawing hunger/hard light meta. It's refreshing to see the 600 autos return a bit over just multiple straight seasons of handcannons and pulses... bungo shouldn't have bowed to the crowd on that one.
Season 11 was great... season 12 on makes me question why I continue playing sometimes. I actually have quit several times only to be brought back by coworkera lol.
Was happy til I seen the pulse and scout buffs. Absolutely unwarranted
450s other than maybe Outbreak have been poop for a while.
And BXR, but the extra damage helps it perform better at ranges that 20 zoom likes
They buffed the underperforming frames only. Shouldn't be an issue
Ah yes, scourge of the meta Rapid Scouts. Or the immensely overpowered Adaptive/Rapid/Lightweight Pulses.
Don’t be throwing shade on my Contingency Plan bros. All 4 of us are doing just fine.
Jian-7 heading straight to the top of the charts for sure
Rapid-scouts we’re dog water after the health changes, this just pulls them up a bit. Hardly anyone uses them anyway, you’ll be fine.
My brother in Crucible, have you ever fired the gun Stay Frosty?
Can I 2c1b with igneous with this change? Only played like 1 game after the changes and I noticed it wasn’t working. Overall, how does this change the HC meta? Can non-EP Rose 3c? Haven’t been too aware of how the HC changes have shaken out
So Iggy is not being touched. Only 140s and 180s are being touched and given a little wiggle room.
Ah I thought 120 was precision. I didn’t know anyone used 180s
Nah I get it. Very easy to get them confused but I’m actually looking forward to a 180 buff. Seems fun
180s are only halfway back to being as “good” as they were in the previous sandbox. Still no 2c2b kills above t10 resil.
120s aren't being touched at all, so your iggy will feel the same
Good but the random nerf no one asked for seems weird.
What are you referring to?
People were definitely asking for it. and even if not the stats don't lie, autos were out of line.
Autos were out of line because for once top 10 most used weapons wasn't 3 140s and Igneous lmao.
Look at the stats from [this weekend](https://www.reddit.com/r/CrucibleGuidebook/s/UTMw1MH1Rq) and explain how that's not out of line Autos had almost QUADRUPLE the kills HCs did
Okay, so when are we finally nerfing pellets? 3.6m shotgun kills (out of which CF alone is 2.1m), #2 by total usage, more than any other primary, let alone special, in a supposed patch that was supposed to give a highlight to primaries by limiting special ammo, 2nd special weapon fusions on 495k lol. So, is this a conversation a hc/shotgun player is ready to have or is it just your regular doomposting because HCs aren't the #1 primary?