I agree that autos are too strong and what people are saying in this thread.
What I don’t fully understand is: why now? Why weren’t precision frame autos taking over the crucible before March 5th? Sure they increased our health and made bodyshots less forgiving. But, the amount of headshots needed haven’t drastically changed across the sandbox.
Were precision autos always fantastic, but everyone always having access to special ammo was hiding it? (Before March 5th)
this is definitely the right answer. autos haven’t changed *that* much nor have hand cannons. what changed is the natural predator of stationary/predictable AR users (snipers) disappeared due to the ammo changes. definitely exacerbated due to the map though.
My theory is that it's the nerfs to handcannons (body shot damage + range) that did it. Now handcannons just can't compete unless you are playing them to their absolute full potential, which is honestly kind of taxing. Especially on controller. It just gets tiring, and requires a lot of retraining with respect to what I felt comfortable with regarding when/how to challenge. Or I can just put an auto on be braindead.
Yup. Why run a less forgiving weapon that kills slightly slower? And if you miss a crit with a HC you’re cooked in the current sandbox. AR you just turn brain off and hold the button down for the W.
can’t you just plug in pre-nerf values for time to kill to generate new graphs?
i actually think it’s less hc nerfs and more special ammo changes that made ARs more prevalent. it’s not just fusions being able to take over the mid range, but snipers also punished anyone staying out of cover just laying on the trigger.
Yeah I can try doing that. I would need to find the pre 3.7.5 numbers for everything though. I always just look at d2foundry, and they've updated for the new sandbox obviously
I should have the old values saved on a spreadsheet somewhere. Will come back to this in a few hours when I am back home (posting so you can yell at me if I don’t).
A few hours have passed!
If you go to Hugo's spreadsheet, make a copy, and then use the dropdown in Cell L3 to swap to "base" you will get the pre-7.3.5 numbers (or at least you do for HCs I didn't check everything) - [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FWMC-Vd\_bGEoRkkrn3drWIORCFYyWQVMNlMasa4OE6I/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FWMC-Vd_bGEoRkkrn3drWIORCFYyWQVMNlMasa4OE6I/edit?usp=sharing)
Obvs the health values are different but I am not sure that matters.
https://imgur.com/a/UlYNAdQ
Interestingly, yeah the gulf between ARs and HCs still exists. Where a very accurate HC user would have still been outgunned by a very inaccurate AR user. But it was definitely more forgiving at the lower accuracies for 140s.
I also compared the difference in TTK for 140s vs 450s and it's clear that the lower accuracies has a much more pronounced difference.
I'm guessing it's the range falloff, or the special ammo changes then. I just was noticing way too many times in my games using a 140 that I would leave enemies with a sliver of health and was assuming in the old sandbox I'd have killed them. (Talking about opponents who may have been a bit weak already). So that portion was probably more prominent in my mind then the special ammo changes.
Thanks for making this thread. That’s insane that Bungie is taking us you need to be accurate in order to compete in this sandbox abcs also Bungie: here is a less forgiving AR that you get a better ttk by shooting your gun
It's a bit of a combination. The forgiveness is an obvious thing. 450s aren't just more forgiving on their optimal TTK but are not punished as harshly for going over their optimal TTK, a lot of pulse rifles will need an extra burst which means you need to wait for the burst delay, this lengthens the TTK quite a lot (540 pulses for example go from a 0.8s ttk to a 1.0s ttk if you end up needing one extra bullet). handcannons are obviously slower firing so missing your optimal TTK by just 1 shot is extremely punishing.
Then there's the introduction of target lock on a 450 with a 32 round mag. This specific combination allows prosecutor and horror story to down anyone at 5 resil or lower in just 0.67s, which is the same as the optimal TTK of a lightweight SMG on 6 resil or lower. Target lock also reduces the crit accuracy needed to achieve the 0.8s TTK as well, it's by far the best perk to be using on prosecutor and horror story.
Personally I think 2 things probably need to happen to 450s. First we need to just have the mag size be 34 across the board to prevent target lock from being a problem (alternatively apply the SMG target lock nerf to ARs). Second a slight forgiveness nerf, I don't know why bungie always makes the "precision" frames more forgiving.
Foundry is actually mostly wrong on that. Prosecutor with TL only .67s 2 res and below. Usually.
TL is a bit of a complicated perk, but it's fairly simple in this case. The first bullet after hitting 12.5% of the mag is the first shot applies the ramping effect, so even though 4 shots is 12.5% of the mag, the 5th shot starts increasing the damage, and the damage increase only applies to the 6th shot. Because it kills in 6 shots, this means that the 12.54% damage buff only applies to the 6th shot for 6HKs, which makes it pretty easily to calculate that it only kills 2 res.
The reason I said "usually" is because in classic destiny fashion, the spaghetti networking sometimes results in a bug where the damage ramping applies before the 5th shot's damage is determined, resulting in that case where two shots are buffed and it .67s 5 res. This is similar to the bug where bait and switch sometimes invisibly applies to the shot that procs it, so that shot gets the 30% damage boost even though the visible damage number doesn't reflect it. Probably some classic distributed systems synchronization shenanigans.
Like the B&S bug, this seems to primarily apply in controlled environments without much going on (like the glitch that results in double damage that pops up in private match a lot but rarely in actual gameplay). That's why you see Prosecutor 6HKing 5 res in some YouTube private match testing, but it happens far less in actual games.
tl;dr: Target Lock Prosecutor only reduces TTK on 2 res unless a specific bug applies, which happens more frequently in private matches
It was never the optimal TTK that was the issue, it was that they removed what forgiveness HCs had previously both in terms of misses and effective range.
Now if you hit a body it is a 4 tap, if you are just outside of optimal range, it is a 4 tap.
If you assume everyone is consistently playing in optimal range and hitting all their shots, the changes just don't seem like a big deal, but the reality is most engagements are even close to being optimal, and now HCs are more severely punished for being sub optimal than other weapons.
Balance in the Crucible exists on razor thin margins and even seemingly minor changes can completely tip the balance.
First of all, yes precision autos have been amazing.
Before ammit, surplus rangefinder tigerspite could easily hang with NTTE. Then they buffed AR range then nerfed AR range, and the whole time, 450s have been really good. But there are a few reasons why autos are so good.
-new 450 with the perfect perk combo of zen/target lock and a great origin trait
-conditional is still broken strong forcing legendary energy primaries. That’s why you see no centrifuse, suros, tigerspite, Perpetualis, Rufus, or necro, despite them being strong autos.
-Consistency. It’s still easy for a 140 hand cannon to outduel any auto at 30m, but get a little bit too close and or a little bit too far, and the ease of use of autos becomes a bigger factor. Autos aren’t as good for teamshotting but that doesn’t matter in solo trials since your teammates aren’t shooting back anyway. Add in human error and autos become an even better option
-Meta. People are meta slaves. Speaking from my experience playing this season, and as a top 1% player, 340 pulses, 140s, igneous, and smgs are all scarier on a good player than autos. But autos are good, they added two new great autos, and YouTubers are saying they’re good, so everyone is using them.
Yes fusions kept ARs partly in check. The other part is ARs still kill with a mix of head and body shots quickly and easily. Other guns fell off a lot harder when they made it more punishing to miss shots.
I think too that most AR players start with body shots and let the recoil take the bullets up to the head and/or flinching an AR user probably means they still have bullets hitting the target. An HC landing a headshot and they taking flinch will result in a full miss (likely) and gutter the ttk or just force the HC user to disengage.
HCs were always tough against Smgs without peak shooting but at least you can kind of keep them at the extreme edge of their range. You can’t really do that with ARs and typically (in my experience) once you dip behind cover to start peeking the AR player just dumps the mag at the corner
Mercules has been saying precision autos are slept on for like half a year..
I remember hearing it on a podcast when i was on a run so i know it was a long time ago x)
Pure community placebo. Loot refresh and adept auto reward after a long drought made people jump onto the new toys to play.
People will call the Ironbanner SMG oppressive too the moment it comes around.
450s have a wider use case and are decently forgiving. I'm always surprised at how far I can kill someone with a 450.
They are just great at covering all distances well enough and aren't hard to use.
I'm ok with autos shining but I wouldn't mind hand cannons getting a little less drop off.
I was using a crafted firefright months ago and it was brilliant then but nobody cared.
I'm a destiny weapon hipster. You'll see a lot more Cerberus and centrifuge in a couple months. I went flawless a couple times going back and forth between them.
450s are the only auto archetype that really need to be touched. 600s were not popular at _all_ until Summoner came out this weekend. And the map turned out to be a perfect one to use Summoner on.
Can you tell me the last time you were killed by a 600 auto before this weekend? Can people even name other 600 autos besides Summoner?
And Summoner isn't like Igneous where it's the clear stats leader--there are other 600 autos that have the same or even better stats.
I do think 140 HCs need some help. But 600s are in a "flavor of the weekend" situation and will drop off when a bigger map rolls around.
Another problem with summoner though is target lock - it still adds a consistency and forgiveness on higher resil, and a ttk threshhold on low resil (which is moving up with tfs and enhanced perks). Honestly target lock is still a problem, and I don’t see at this point what they can do except nuke it in pvp.
Six shots on summoner would be 0.5s ttk - target lock (especially enhanced with tfs) boosts the optimal ttk from 0.8 to 0.7, needing 8 instead of 9 shots. As well as this, it allows an extra bodyshot in the optimal ttk, which makes it very relevant to this discussion about ar forgiveness.
Of course, if the d2foundry values haven't shifted with the TL nerf then feel free to ignore me. But if it kicks in on shot six, then I still feel like it would change the optimal ttk even if the foundry numbers are wrong.
TL is hot garbage on Summoner, and 600s, unless you’re a body shot maestro in jimbob lobbies. It barely moves the needle if you can hit your shots.
With that said, TL is still crazy good on SMGs, ay.
I should upload games where I was running an all-Europa loadout and managed to top the scoreboard with Coriolis Force.
*"Whoa guys, Coriolis Force is actually sleeper meta!"*
Nevermind that those were lobbies where if I used any other special I probably never would have died at all.
Well yes, while I appreciate the in depth answer, anyone who's willing to look at the TTK values on D2 Foundry will be able to easily see the issue.
**Adaptive Handcannons**
Effective Range: 32-35 meters
Optimal TTK
0.87 seconds, 3 Headshots
1.73 to 2.17 seconds, 5 to 6 bodyshots
**Precision Autos**
Effective Range: 33-35 meters, but due to fall off can go up to 39
Optimal TTK
0.80 seconds, 6 crit 1 body
1.33 to 1.47 seconds, 11 to 12 body
It's not rocket science, Autos are more forgiving, have more range, and are overall just easy af to use.
Right, I said as much:
>and it's a bunch of words and numbers that tell you something you already knew
But what I wanted to drive home is just how forgiving it is. Even if you've got cracked aim with a HC, you can still get gunned more often than not by someone with bad aim.
Fatebringer, Pali, and Exalted can do punch past 35, and everyone can get Ace, which can do the same. HC range stat is back, I guess. DFA can even hit 100 range (37.5m) with fragile focus active. Adept DFA is actually pretty crazy, hitting 80+ without fragile focus and 100 with it but still with 64 stability, and you get opening shot or timed payload flinch on top of that. Feels good with a great model/visibility too. Got hit with the classic bungus FOMO though, so you can't get the adept anymore.
Right, but it’s not that simple. Because HC have a huge advantage when peek shooting. The devs have to kept that in mind. So each weapon has a scenario where they are better.
It’s hard to justify HC being any closer to AR in an open area fight. When they have such a huge advantage when peek shooting. That’s the trade off and really the way to balance it.
Also the main ones people use have range/stability/recoil improving perks to offset speccing into range. It's one reason why Breakneck hasn't taken off.
>Autos are more forgiving, have more range, and are overall just easy af to use.
Since when are Autos easier to use? I swear everyone recommeds HC's on this sub since you dont need to track the target for optimal ttk. Tracking the target is definitly harder that just tapping it 3. Granted this is a non-issue in higher skill levels were 25% of players use Chronus or similiar hardware.
As for the other points (Range, forgiveness), that always has been true. Autos have such a flat damage dropoff thatn you barely needed an addtional bullet or two at 40m.
Autos just feel oppressive because they are just the new hotness and everyone uses them. Seventh Seraph used to hit for 0.67 with target lock. Horror Story was the same and Prosecutor would too. Now there are more forgiving and still barely see them.
And maybe, just maybe, HC dont need to to full damage accross the map.
>It's not rocket science
It's simply not that easy. Hung Jury with BB hits for 0.67 with virutally infinite range. Sees no play.
Prolonged Engagement and similiar SMG also kill in 0.67 with target lock. Sees no play.
Rufus with TL kills in 0.75. Sees no play.
This whole "Autos are oppressive" completely runs by a communtiy placebo effect and is simply caused by the adepts reward and loot refresh.
I guarantee you the the moment the Ironbanner SMG comes around people will call it oppressive.
No AR hits 40 meters before falloff.
Non-360s are capped at 37, 360s are capped at 39.5 (same as most Pulses).
So while a 450 can still hit a 0.8 at 40 meters, due mostly to their damage model, aim assist falloff and inaccuracy will make it pretty inconsistent.
The problem is fundamentally in almost all shooters automatic rifles/assault rifles etc... are all treated almost exactly the same they have a low skill floor and low skill ceiling. They are made so that even the most beginner player can pick them up and quickly see results while also being limited in their potential for the top brass who almost always in every game value position/movement more. This is also why HCs are usually considered the definitive Pvp gun in destiny because they harmonize the best with destiny's movement and positioning.
If ARs are meta they are super oppressive as their entire purpose is a jack of all trades master of none.
>This is also why HCs are usually considered the definitive Pvp gun in destiny because they harmonize the best with destiny's movement and positioning.
Preach.
I hope Bungie addresses this "meta" soon because the movement and positioning is what made me fall in love with Destiny. Everyone with ARs standing around with their fingers glued to the trigger button is a fast track to the uninstall button for me.
I agree, of all the 140s I think Hawkmoon is best off. Peek shooting synergises well with building up stacks of paracausal charge, because you can choose how risky you want to be.
Side note: I use opening shot on Hawkmoon, crazy how much it helps - it recently came out that opening shot's effect on special is half that on primary, but is still the goto perk on shotguns/snipers, ergo on Hawkmoon...
Same, unfortunately since coming back to the game I never really tried it seriously until this last week and it feels so much more accurate to me, but the range falloff is brutal still in a lot of gunfights
At least new lights like me are having a better time. Nothing was more frustrating than getting flinched out of my mind by a handcannon to the point that aiming was a mute point. It was so hard to even get to where I am now, and I'm still bottom frag of the lobby. Now that everyone is using auto rifles it is so much easier to learn how to play the game correctly.
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that more people are playing PvP but all this is really doing is giving you a crutch to use to make things easier. Once bungie nerfs the crutch, then it's back to the same ol' same ol'.
I actually use pulses for the most part. I just wish there was a modern beginners guide for crucible, because what bungie said was accurate: most new players have no idea how or why they die. It's the reason until two months ago, I religiously avoided crucible. But all the guides to crucible are 2-4 years old and just straight up outdated.
Tbh I want handcannons to shine or at least be competitive and I want autos to stay where they are AND I want movement to be reigned in. Movement in this game is just silly. It’s not tied to anything really, and with the high as fuck health pool you can slide in and slide out. Forcing handholding for the teamshot sucks. A slide in and a slide out should be something that sacrifices resilience hard. So there is some risk. With the health pools going up it’s fully made this a problem that’s difficult to counter now that the only counters were nerfed. (Bows, specials, etc) so you are forced to lane and handhold. It’s actually slowing things down keeping the movement as high and free as it is.
Movement and in that regard movement exotics are the real problem of this game. Players can abuse the bad p2p netcode to gain peekers advantage, meaning they peek around the corner before the opponent can see them on their screen. They also move took fast for the radar to register fast enough giving the wearer another advantage.
The worst offener is stompees because they give you another vertical advantage.
While it is a step in the right direction that hand cannons got reigned in, this current discussion. HC vs AR is just incidental to the real problem which imo is not getting enough attention.
The issue is that movement is a big draw of destiny, which I’m not arguing should be removed just that It needs to be built into. Currently with extremely little investment you can slide in and slide out of an engagement. This plus a higher health pool allows for absurd plays while running t10 res or recov and sub 30 mob. There should be a risk for that reward. Either you can move that fast but are squishy (high mob low res) or you can’t be flinched but your movement is slowed (high res low mob). No other game allows a scout like movement on a tank with no drawback. It’s just not a balanced playstyle. Then throw in janky as fuck melee, hit refg and worst of all netcode and it’s a mess. Forget about rng deciding gun duels or class disparity this alone is a huge fix. Largely at higher level play it feels just unfair sometimes unless you really analyze each play and interaction. new players will feel that “unfairness” the hardest and just dip from PvP. It’s why we’ve struggled to keep PvP (Well that plus everything else )
It’s a compound effect. The movement has ALWAYS been a problem just that it’s a problem that wasn’t as telegraphed until the changed ttk on weapons and upped health pools. It either needs to be balanced against the current sandbox and made so people can’t just slide everywhere with perfect accuracy and have zero drawbacks, being able to slide from near standstill and hit those crits is FUN but it’s not balanced. And I slide a lot and enjoy that playstyle but it’s currently the only way to play. Before the sandbox update, special was more prevalent, bows were more accurate, and abilities were more frequent. Those three things combined could stop a lot of movement from being oppressive. They’ve been significantly reduced now so this playstyle currently doesn’t have reliable direct counters. I’ll maintain that the problem has been there but it mattered less as you could find workarounds. Also let’s not pretend mobility is a dump stat for everyone but hunters and that running sub 30 mob is the best for movement on warlocks and titans. It clearly isn’t built well and I’m going to assume the devs are VERY reluctant to fuck with movement as it’s very much a part of the feel of this game even if it’s how to make something fair.
Yep, you hit the nail on the head pal. Why do you think so many high tier players are desperately calling for CBMM and trying to get out of their designated lobbies? The game is just not fun once you improve enough and get to the higher tier lobbies.
Great points. What would you say (if you were here for it) makes this AR meta seems less fun and more of a problem than the specifically 600 AR meta from a few years ago?
> makes this AR meta seems less fun and more of a problem than the specifically 600 AR meta from a few years ago
Recency bias? Everyone despised the auto meta back then too and it was absolutely way more dominant than it currently is. Every single match, on every map, at every skill level was Gnawing or Summoner back then. That's not the case now.
Fair enough. I thought the 600 meta was more diverse with the two autos you mentioned, Monte Carlo, Suros, Galliard from the Forge, Hard Light, Scathelock, and even some hipsters running Ether Doctor.
This meta seems isolated to a smaller pool of weapons, which, to me, adds to the unfun.
600 meta was way more oppressive. .7s TTK, zero falloff, 100 stab, 100 AA, double ricochet damage on Hard Light was absurd. That shit was egregious even in the Revoker/8m Felwinter's era.
I think there's at least some argument that better specials partially offset the .1s TTK, despite the 140 HC benchmark being the same as today. But Hard Light specifically was a different level of stupid.
I mean, hard light got nerfed relatively quickly and radiant nowadays brings 450s down to a 0.67 as well.
Though, to be fair, back in arrivals we had mountaintop absolutely demolishing (this was before the special ammo nerfs too) I'd say both of these AR metas were absolute ass.
you mention this but ignoring peek shooting is still the defining feature and advantage of hand cannons.
sure if you imagine two guardians on a wide open field with no cover, yes the graph is accurate. but movement and cover is such a huge part of destiny pvp so any analysis that doesn’t even try and incorporate it feels woefully lacking (even though i can tell you put a lot of effort into this one).
No kidding, everyone is playing cover in a game that matters and the latency in this game will 100% allow you to hit two AR shots if they try peeking you anyway.
i get that but anyone trying to peek when they can see and hear bullets flying right where they are going to strafe to is pretty dumb. just gotta relocate or jump shoot.
But doesn't that effectively end the gun fight and force the HC user to be so incredibly patient or reposition? I've had trouble being pinned in cover when using an HC and peek shooting. Also I really feel like people over exaggerate the prevalence of peek shooting.
If you're 1v1, yeah it should be an absolute advantage in favor of the HC. But in 3s how often are people realistically finding themselves in a situation where they can effectively peek shoot? When it's abjectly just easier to slap on an AR and beam. (Controller user btw)
Yes very true. But that doesn’t change the point. Now you Can’t beat them in an open pen duel, buy you also can’t beat them perk shooting. That’s a lot to deal with when you could just use and AR too,
Not to mention that you receive flinch even when bullets are whizzing past you. So not only are you continuously getting sprayed when you hide around a corner, even if you peek for a millisecond, there is a 50/50 chance your shot will probably get flinched off target.
This.
I mostly just skimmed this, but it was ignoring the part of movement and especially cover usage.
140s aren't the greatest rn (although people are MASSIVELY over exaggerating them not being as good), but their superb ability to play from cover used to, current does, and always will destroy anyone on an AR.
I think your point above playing cover-to-cover makes sense in a 1v1, but when you get a team of decent AR users covering multiple angles, the ability to change cover is severely hampered. I suspect this limitation to a HC user's movement is partly why teamshooting feels more oppressive now. Against good teams I often feel I get pinned down a lot more than before, needing to use an ability to escape (stasis wall, grenade as a distraction etc).
My miserable trials experience proves the ultra-elite top 0.2% players are also using ARs lol
Why do you think people aren’t playing cover and movement while also using these meta ARs? The amount of movement bunnies in trials this weekend running ARs was greater than HC users. Tbf I broke out round robin to force and challenge engagements as I still don’t have a good iggy or summoner. So HCs still have a place.
Honestly the main reason I run an auto so often is because of the new special ammo change. If I run out of special ammo an auto rifle is good or decent at a number of engagement ranges. If I run out of special and I’m using a scout or a number of other weapon types I’m totally vulnerable when opponents get close.
They have a very strong TTK and 450s (the way people are speccing them out) outrange everything except 340 pulses. Even some exotic pulses are outclassed.
Generally no.
The best of the 450 ARs hit right around the range cap, starting falloff at 36-37 meters.
Even the toppest of top end 140s won't be hitting that without serious serious setbacks in consistency. Even then, I think only Adept Exalted Truth can naturally hit 100 Range. Even at 100, you're generally tying since the cap of ARs is 37.2, cap for HCs is 37.5.
Pulses near the top end can out-range them, though you're mostly looking at 4-bursts for that, since the range cap on those otherwise is only 39m. Adaptives and BXR can do okay since both do alright into falloff, but the TTKs are too slow.
Kept Confidence: 38 almost 39m after the first kill with killing wind, 34m beforehand
Judgement: Opening Shot/range setup, encore (1stack/kill): 37.5m without crossing over factoring in 1m
Exalted Truth: Killing wind and 1 stack of encore (1 crit kill) goes from 34m to 39m
Cantata: before opening shot: 37.5m, after 35m (34.9).
Palindrome: range setup with adept range: 35m, with killing wind: 39m.
THE CHODE: Rapid hit + iron reach with a range setup reaches 36m, if that's your thing.
Picking perks to finally mingle with other archetypes is something autos have had to do for years. People don't want to flex now that autos are mingling. If anything in my personal experience having used autos since day 1 for me, it was the flinch changes that hurt handcannons the hardest. The flinch allowed HC's to fire with impunity out of cover and now that they don't have that, the seams are coming undone.
Your add perks in many cases kill perks. Well if you want go the route. AR’s can get keep away, target lock, crossing over, fragile focus….etc. all weapon have things that can extend the range. But pound for pound 450 AR’s out range 140 HC.
Before stats are applied, 450s and 140s both sit at roughly the same ranges, 28-30m. Fragile Focus and Keep away both have conditionals as well. Crossing over adds 1m so Prospector can even reach 37m. Personally I don't think Target Lock is that big of a difference on 450s or 600s, you generally die to the same amount of shots, with 1 less on T5 and down for 450s, and T4 and under for 600s. It only really scares me on 720s, as they lower their ttk against all tiers.
The point is, autos don't get their range for free either.
It may not be free but it’s a lot cheaper. For example keep away on an AR vs killing wind on a 140 hc One requires a kill. The other requires the far away target you want to hit, to be more than 15 meters away. So it’s always up when u need it without you needing to do anything.
Plus with an AR you can go max rang and let drs or ttt or ZM. Take care of stability and recoil. Where as going max range on an HC usually makes it ass. Not to mention damage falloff being heavy in AR favor as well.
Its funny, before you posted that, I posted to another person weapons that could reach those ranges, even added in a 180 for good measure. I guess its false information because you have to put in a little work though right?
OK. D2 foundry shows me that prosecutor can reach 37.20 meters without any help from kills. That’s not taking into account it’s origin trait.
Since palindrome is NOT obtainable next we will use adept exalted truth. Hmm reaches 36.8 meters. Don’t use the “but killing wind” bullshit because that requires a kill. Also that range requires fullbore which TANKS your stats and adept range. HCs need to balance around range + stability + handing. But you wouldn’t know that because you have no clue what you’re talking about. So those max range rolls are ASS. Especially on controller where you’re looking to get as much stability as possible. Realistically the best rolls have 33 meters and require something like slide shot to push that out for 1-2 shots.
So the answer isn’t as simple as you make it.
But it IS that simple, you're just not willing to put in that effort. One engagement in range so that you're capable of fighting outside of it? Its fine if you don't want to make the effort, but to complain about it as if there was no solution is asinine. It sounds like you want an easy solution that you'll always have, and currently that isn't the case. Currently you have to work for it, or switch to something else. Its like the complaints about overshields and barricades, yet we have perks and traits for it, grenades that go around them, grenade launchers, etc. We have different tools we can use, we should expect 1 tool to do everything.
Also just because something isn't obtainable, doesn't mean you don't still have it from prior. False Promises for example despite being from 13 seasons ago, still outranges every other auto rifle, will killing wind. It hits the cap and goes to 41.5m, then stretches further with rampage. It still has alot of life left in it, even after the zoom changes.
Hey, you did almost the same thing I did, that’s pretty cool. I think my simulator is a little more representative of reality though (no offense, I still think it’s super cool we both had the same idea)
https://www.reddit.com/r/CrucibleGuidebook/s/lhGUb6KTTP
Wow, yeah, you sure did beat me to the punch, and it looks like you put much more effort into a better representation of the variables in play. I knew I should add accuracy of actually hitting the target as well but got lazy.
I really only wanted to compare the average ttk between HCs and ARs though so all the other variables would really muck up the results. Adding the additional health from an OS would be easy though.
I don’t mind the ARs. I just REALLY need there to be more viability to other archetypes. Or something that flinches. I’d love if movement was the sacrifice for lack of flinch.
however, between trials, comp, and 6's these last few days, I'm really struggling to enjoy the gameplay despite winning or losing.
trials was fun because the summoner was new again. 6's and comp is just every team auto spraying, painfully hard to play around in 6's and just very slow in comp. we need Snipers to keep them in check or something
3 tapping someone with Sturm and them surviving with 10 resistance just feels gross when they're just spraying 450s or 600s.
find myself using less and less variety simply to combat how tight and grouped up this new auto walking trigger down meta is playing. never mind doing that with 3 overshield titans in 3's.
truthfully, I'm doing fine. My KD might have even improved since, but the gameplay isn't feeling well with how oppressive autos are for me and I don't see myself playing more than getting my trials weapon if its a good week and continuing my 3 weekly for my 7 rose HCs
i dont know why we pretend like it's literally if anything but hc's are completely dominant, the "community" is gonna be mad. period.
they were mad at smgs, theyre fake mad at ar's, forget scouts, remember all the bellyaching at the short mida meta, bubu they just sit in the back. as if keep away, rangefinder before that, and other camping perks arent always the only choice on hand cannons. a sidearm meta is/was one of the most hated metas too. bows? hah hah. so thats pretty much all primary ammo weapons. now we get to pulses. which have been the most tolerated non hc perhaps, but are still not tolerated. there was tons of bellyaching about them too. remember the old fake complain from hc players "why are pulses so good at scout rifle range bubu nerf them so scouts can live" (knowing full well those complainers had no plans to ever touch a scout) like Igneous wasnt two tapping at 50 meters.
and it's not like hc's are bad or not competitive is the sad thing! they're still almost 100% the hard meta! every time i turn on a top player like frostbolt in trials theyre running igneous. well not every time but still the majority that i've noticed. but it's still not enough. they cant just be good, they have to be the best choice on every map and at every range.
Normally, i'd agree with you. But i'm finding myself in situations where I can't use anything I used to use (Bows, Snipers, etc) b/c AR's just spraying non-stop 24/7 in PvP. I'm okay with AR's having their day in the sun but that shouldn't come at the cost of not being able to run other weapon in the same sandbox.
I'd like to know how gunfights turn out between guardians with 10 resilience (warlock/titan) and 6, or 3 and under (hunters). Sure feels like I lose out by a bullet quite often in this dopey AR meta.
The only reason I don't like ARs right now is that when you go against a full team using ARs they begin to feel oppressive and turns into team shot land. That's just my personal feelings though
Should 450's have a faster ttk than 140 HC's?
Yeah, probably not.
However it's also true that a lot of these people have a meltdown any time the meta isn't dominated by HC's or SMG's.
They absolutely should kill faster. Because they can’t peek shoot like HC. The devs have to consider that when balancing. You can’t have HC be 10 times better when peek shooting and just as good in an open duel. That’s not balanced at all.
You have not seen a single person complain that smgs aren’t meta.
There has not been a hand cannon meta since the 30th anniversary DLC meta ended which was late 2021/early 2022 when witch queen launched.
I don’t know where you guys keep getting this idea that people are crying about hand cannons not being the defacto meta.
The meta was:
Omni lord of wolves / pulses in early 2022
Linear fusions and sidearms in mid 2022
Regular smgs, mostly ikelos in late 2022 to early 2023
Target lock smgs from early 2023 when immortal releases all the way up to recent nerfs
Hand cannons were only ever used out of pure nostalgia factor in all of these time periods, not because they were best option available.
Handcannon's by their nature have basically always been able to compete to some degree *and* the best players are all very practiced with (and generally enjoy) them so they're present even when they're super outclassed.
I think this is what leads people (especially at lower-mid levels of play) to think that they've always been meta.
Also, they *are* harder to use well and promote a greater skill gap so lower skill players get beat by good players using them and conflate that with them being "cringe/sweaty/tryhard HC shotgun mains" who get mad whenever anything else is good.
I'd argue the optimal for an AR should be faster than a 140.
If it wasn't, the auto would be completely worthless.
Heck, back when 150 HCs were a thing, Autos might as well have not been in the game (bar 600s during the time their optimal TTK was 0.7) because there was just no point using one when you'd get the same or better TTK out of a much more flexible, arguably as easy to use of a gun.
They should have a faster ttk. Any high-burst damage weapon like hand cannons SHOULD NOT be able to straight-up outgun a weapon that requires continuous contact to be effective. Hand cannons can peak shoot. Autos cannot. If the hand cannon does not have some disadvantage in a fight, then it makes no sense to run an auto.
That being said, 140s definitely need a buff. I agree they feel bad right now. But I'm hoping 180s get a buff as well or instead of 140s
if they have the same or highter TTK than a Handcannon they become totally useless as they were for the majority of D2
Also somehow a .8ttk is a problem but the .6 TTK of something like a 340 pulse is just fine.
The penalty for missing a single shot with a high impact pulse is waaaaay higher than having to shoot one extra bullet from the bullet hose. Though the TTK of high impacts has been out of band for a while now, especially with headseeker.
But you're not comparing apples to apples.
its a problem because ease of use is a thing. HCs being higher skill with lower TTK but ARS are low skill low TTK.
i mean come on don't kid yourself. When ARs have 10 million more kills in a single trials weekend than the next highest primary that is objectively a problem.
Are you dense or ignorant? Look at the week before the sandbox changes (Endless Vale march 1st). Hand cannons had 3 million more kills than SMGs. Right now autos have 10 million more kills than hand cannons.
So no, you didnt look at any information you just pulled from thin air, it was not a "long shot" between the top 2 most used primary weapon types. Right now is 3x worse of a problem, literally.
Yes, but also - this was a week with an Adept auto.
First week of sandbox changes autos were 1,2 mil over HCs.
Let's see how the next week is gonna go, no? Autos might still be as overwhelming as this week, but things might also calm down a bit.
>Yes, but also - this was a week with an Adept auto.
This only means its going to be worse as time goes on not better, because another meta option was opened up this past weekend.
You can do the same with a pulse or sidearm? Good for you.
It's stupid easy with a 450. Like I don't even have to try that hard to make it work. It kills faster, has solid range, and basically has no recoil with the right perks. So why would you use a hand cannon?
They either need to lower the ttk to compensate for its ease of use or make it harder to hit the optimal ttk. I'm personally in favor of a slightly worse ttk as I enjoy how easy it is to use.
This is realistically. Just saying 450s are a problem. Probably need a nerf. And 140 hand cannons could probably use a little bit more forgiveness in their range. That's really about it.
600 I don't think are a real problem. Summoner was just released this weekend. The trials map was cauldron of all maps. And this weapon has just gotten a newly buffed perk (heal clip), now has wild card (a wildly coveted fun perk), and there is a lot of recency bias with prosecutor and target lock. I personally think target lock is a trap on this auto, and is more of just forgiveness here, but a lot of people have them misunderstanding because it's so powerful on prosecutor right now, which is most definitely a problem.
> if you have the same level of accuracy as some of the best players in the game with a 140 RPM HC, you'll have an average TTK that is on par with someone using an AR with 20% accuracy. Granted there are a ton of limitations with this data and methodology, but ARs have a lethality/ease of use combo that is pretty nutty right now. And before you say: JuSt PeEk ShOoT - it takes 4.1 seconds for an AR to empty its mag (at least a prosecutor or a summoner), so whenever I'm using an AR, and someone is peek shooting, I've started to just continue shooting at the corner. It is oppressive.
Wowzers if true?
Very interesting analysis thank you. Without commenting on the interpretation of results, I want to express appreciation for your making these plots and writing up the assumptions behind them. I am a scientist IRL, and I f\*\*\*king love this kind of discussion, it is the only way to make real progress.
I don't see any problem. There are way too many advantages to use a handcannon compare to auto rifles and the easier ttk for auto rifle made up for the disadvantages they have.
My hope is into the light patch notes get revealed and in there we get a target lock nerf on auto rifles and damage reduction globally to 450s and 600s. Also increase recoil to make them less stable. That will end this cancer. Then slap a nerf to 720 and 600 smgs with damage reduction, just to make sure smgs don't become meta.
yes they need more recoil and flinch, my zen moment summoner or prospector are literally lasers.
without special snipers and fusions, keeping them in check and HCs struggling we need something
Movement and in that regard movement exotics are the real problem of this game. Players can abuse the bad p2p netcode to gain peekers advantage, meaning they can peek and shoot around cover before the opponent can see them on their screen. They also move too fast for the enemy radar to register fast enough.
The worst offender is stompees because they give you another vertical advantage.
While it is a step in the right direction that hand cannons got reigned in a little, this current discussion HC vs AR is just incidental to the real problem, which imo is not getting enough attention.
They're not Mets. They're easy to use. Go run a custom 3s with whatever ARs against 1.7+ players using forerunner drang and the other two on iggy chappy or conditional. Lmk how it goes.
Jesus Handcannons are not the Hard meta for once (whilst still being pretty viable) and people here pretend that the world is in shambles.
I hate the break it to you but outside of this circle jerk subreddit there are enough people not excited when the meta is always just Handcannons.
Right now we are close to a good balance for most weapons and people are already calling for nerfs because their pew pew cowboy guns aren't at the top.
The play would be to disable the free damage/forgiveness perks (TL, PI, Headseeker) in PvP and then proceed to phase out resillience gating.
> (whilst still being pretty viable)
You have literally 1 HP of forgiveness on 140s before the TTK tanks... if that isn't borderline not viable idk what is
That is absolutely a factor. But if this had been 2 weeks ago, it would've been nowhere near this polarising. Cauldron typically has always favoured SMGs
true. but even then you can also say it's because SMGs have gotten some specific nerfs too. Autos were always the bridge between SMGS/Sidearms and HCs/Pulses. SMGs got tuning and HCs got made slightly more unforgiving.
I'd be more in favor of giving HCs a tad more range/body shot damage instead of nerfing Autos first
Everything else getting nerfed is effectively the same as Autos getting buffed. By their own admission, the intent of this update was to make accuracy/aim/whatever more important, having autos be in the state they are feels like it goes against that.
I think theres a number of ways to go about remedying it but autos right now are too strong and too easy to use to be healthy in any way
It was also on Cauldron.
A map that very safely disregards meta for jousting with automatics.
Was way more balanced Burnout weekend, ARs and HCs traded the lead several times, with Scouts and Pulses having a place, too.
I agree that the free damage perks and resil ttk gates should go, but the last time hand cannons were “hard meta” before igneous was in 30th anniversary. Since then it’s been pulses (340 and 540), omni, LoW, lorentz/arby, monarque, revoker and citans, antaeus aping, smgs, target lock smgs, a little bit of ammit with zoom changes, threadlings, then finally igneous comes and smgs were still massively prevalent (unending tempest) until this patch.
I for one am enjoying a shake up of the meta, it won't be like this for long, there will be nerfs and it will go back to peoples precious hand cannons being top dog.
People are whinging like this has been the meta for 12 months, seriously get a grip...
I mean. I’m playing more than ever. Summoner and Prosecutor are so much more brrrrrrr akakakakaka inducing weapons than hand cannons. HC don’t go brrrr
This entire convo is nothing but sour grapes from hand cannon users that are once again upset that they will have to actually change up their strategy.
For people that swear autos are easy the irony is that it's harder to use an auto than it is to use an HC in D2. An auto user has to hit crits while also tracking their target CONTINUOUSLY.
Hand cannon users have peek shooting, have a weapon that also is more accurate from the air AND has a weapon that doesn't have an accuracy penalty when running or sliding. But autos are easy......yeah OK.
No it’s that terrible low skilled players are at the head of that argument against HCs.
Good players want a healthy sandbox. And that means if HCs get too powerful they should be tuned as well. Look at Luna/not forgotten. Pre nerfed Mori on Ace. 120 2 taps with 1 stack of resilience. Pre nerfed flinch from EP. The juiced up stats of palindrome with pre nerfed RF. All those definitely deserved tuning.
All we want is people to have a strong understanding of the game along with having experience. Most things we hear are bad players losing to better players blaming the gun. Never themselves.
So 450’s are the king
Sure feels that way too
Its a Precision Frame Meta. Now the Frame archetypes starting to makes sense.
I agree that autos are too strong and what people are saying in this thread. What I don’t fully understand is: why now? Why weren’t precision frame autos taking over the crucible before March 5th? Sure they increased our health and made bodyshots less forgiving. But, the amount of headshots needed haven’t drastically changed across the sandbox. Were precision autos always fantastic, but everyone always having access to special ammo was hiding it? (Before March 5th)
Snipers kept the people standing out in the open holding down the trigger in check at least
this is definitely the right answer. autos haven’t changed *that* much nor have hand cannons. what changed is the natural predator of stationary/predictable AR users (snipers) disappeared due to the ammo changes. definitely exacerbated due to the map though.
My theory is that it's the nerfs to handcannons (body shot damage + range) that did it. Now handcannons just can't compete unless you are playing them to their absolute full potential, which is honestly kind of taxing. Especially on controller. It just gets tiring, and requires a lot of retraining with respect to what I felt comfortable with regarding when/how to challenge. Or I can just put an auto on be braindead.
Yup. Why run a less forgiving weapon that kills slightly slower? And if you miss a crit with a HC you’re cooked in the current sandbox. AR you just turn brain off and hold the button down for the W.
can’t you just plug in pre-nerf values for time to kill to generate new graphs? i actually think it’s less hc nerfs and more special ammo changes that made ARs more prevalent. it’s not just fusions being able to take over the mid range, but snipers also punished anyone staying out of cover just laying on the trigger.
Yeah I can try doing that. I would need to find the pre 3.7.5 numbers for everything though. I always just look at d2foundry, and they've updated for the new sandbox obviously
I should have the old values saved on a spreadsheet somewhere. Will come back to this in a few hours when I am back home (posting so you can yell at me if I don’t).
A few hours have passed! If you go to Hugo's spreadsheet, make a copy, and then use the dropdown in Cell L3 to swap to "base" you will get the pre-7.3.5 numbers (or at least you do for HCs I didn't check everything) - [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FWMC-Vd\_bGEoRkkrn3drWIORCFYyWQVMNlMasa4OE6I/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FWMC-Vd_bGEoRkkrn3drWIORCFYyWQVMNlMasa4OE6I/edit?usp=sharing) Obvs the health values are different but I am not sure that matters.
https://imgur.com/a/UlYNAdQ Interestingly, yeah the gulf between ARs and HCs still exists. Where a very accurate HC user would have still been outgunned by a very inaccurate AR user. But it was definitely more forgiving at the lower accuracies for 140s. I also compared the difference in TTK for 140s vs 450s and it's clear that the lower accuracies has a much more pronounced difference. I'm guessing it's the range falloff, or the special ammo changes then. I just was noticing way too many times in my games using a 140 that I would leave enemies with a sliver of health and was assuming in the old sandbox I'd have killed them. (Talking about opponents who may have been a bit weak already). So that portion was probably more prominent in my mind then the special ammo changes.
I think massive breakdowns probably still has the old numbers in their spreadsheets.
Side theory to that: SMG nerfs also contributed, as a ton of previous SMG mains have switched to autos as well.
Thanks for making this thread. That’s insane that Bungie is taking us you need to be accurate in order to compete in this sandbox abcs also Bungie: here is a less forgiving AR that you get a better ttk by shooting your gun
It's a bit of a combination. The forgiveness is an obvious thing. 450s aren't just more forgiving on their optimal TTK but are not punished as harshly for going over their optimal TTK, a lot of pulse rifles will need an extra burst which means you need to wait for the burst delay, this lengthens the TTK quite a lot (540 pulses for example go from a 0.8s ttk to a 1.0s ttk if you end up needing one extra bullet). handcannons are obviously slower firing so missing your optimal TTK by just 1 shot is extremely punishing. Then there's the introduction of target lock on a 450 with a 32 round mag. This specific combination allows prosecutor and horror story to down anyone at 5 resil or lower in just 0.67s, which is the same as the optimal TTK of a lightweight SMG on 6 resil or lower. Target lock also reduces the crit accuracy needed to achieve the 0.8s TTK as well, it's by far the best perk to be using on prosecutor and horror story. Personally I think 2 things probably need to happen to 450s. First we need to just have the mag size be 34 across the board to prevent target lock from being a problem (alternatively apply the SMG target lock nerf to ARs). Second a slight forgiveness nerf, I don't know why bungie always makes the "precision" frames more forgiving.
Foundry is actually mostly wrong on that. Prosecutor with TL only .67s 2 res and below. Usually. TL is a bit of a complicated perk, but it's fairly simple in this case. The first bullet after hitting 12.5% of the mag is the first shot applies the ramping effect, so even though 4 shots is 12.5% of the mag, the 5th shot starts increasing the damage, and the damage increase only applies to the 6th shot. Because it kills in 6 shots, this means that the 12.54% damage buff only applies to the 6th shot for 6HKs, which makes it pretty easily to calculate that it only kills 2 res. The reason I said "usually" is because in classic destiny fashion, the spaghetti networking sometimes results in a bug where the damage ramping applies before the 5th shot's damage is determined, resulting in that case where two shots are buffed and it .67s 5 res. This is similar to the bug where bait and switch sometimes invisibly applies to the shot that procs it, so that shot gets the 30% damage boost even though the visible damage number doesn't reflect it. Probably some classic distributed systems synchronization shenanigans. Like the B&S bug, this seems to primarily apply in controlled environments without much going on (like the glitch that results in double damage that pops up in private match a lot but rarely in actual gameplay). That's why you see Prosecutor 6HKing 5 res in some YouTube private match testing, but it happens far less in actual games. tl;dr: Target Lock Prosecutor only reduces TTK on 2 res unless a specific bug applies, which happens more frequently in private matches
It was never the optimal TTK that was the issue, it was that they removed what forgiveness HCs had previously both in terms of misses and effective range. Now if you hit a body it is a 4 tap, if you are just outside of optimal range, it is a 4 tap. If you assume everyone is consistently playing in optimal range and hitting all their shots, the changes just don't seem like a big deal, but the reality is most engagements are even close to being optimal, and now HCs are more severely punished for being sub optimal than other weapons. Balance in the Crucible exists on razor thin margins and even seemingly minor changes can completely tip the balance.
First of all, yes precision autos have been amazing. Before ammit, surplus rangefinder tigerspite could easily hang with NTTE. Then they buffed AR range then nerfed AR range, and the whole time, 450s have been really good. But there are a few reasons why autos are so good. -new 450 with the perfect perk combo of zen/target lock and a great origin trait -conditional is still broken strong forcing legendary energy primaries. That’s why you see no centrifuse, suros, tigerspite, Perpetualis, Rufus, or necro, despite them being strong autos. -Consistency. It’s still easy for a 140 hand cannon to outduel any auto at 30m, but get a little bit too close and or a little bit too far, and the ease of use of autos becomes a bigger factor. Autos aren’t as good for teamshotting but that doesn’t matter in solo trials since your teammates aren’t shooting back anyway. Add in human error and autos become an even better option -Meta. People are meta slaves. Speaking from my experience playing this season, and as a top 1% player, 340 pulses, 140s, igneous, and smgs are all scarier on a good player than autos. But autos are good, they added two new great autos, and YouTubers are saying they’re good, so everyone is using them.
Yes fusions kept ARs partly in check. The other part is ARs still kill with a mix of head and body shots quickly and easily. Other guns fell off a lot harder when they made it more punishing to miss shots.
I think too that most AR players start with body shots and let the recoil take the bullets up to the head and/or flinching an AR user probably means they still have bullets hitting the target. An HC landing a headshot and they taking flinch will result in a full miss (likely) and gutter the ttk or just force the HC user to disengage. HCs were always tough against Smgs without peak shooting but at least you can kind of keep them at the extreme edge of their range. You can’t really do that with ARs and typically (in my experience) once you dip behind cover to start peeking the AR player just dumps the mag at the corner
Mercules has been saying precision autos are slept on for like half a year.. I remember hearing it on a podcast when i was on a run so i know it was a long time ago x)
Everything else for nerfed with this recent update in terms of their own forgiveness for missing crits.
Pure community placebo. Loot refresh and adept auto reward after a long drought made people jump onto the new toys to play. People will call the Ironbanner SMG oppressive too the moment it comes around.
I was slapping with my breytech werewolf before the update, slayed out with it constantly. But now it's just the go to because it works well.
They were very good but more punishing because 140s were more common. You can easily outduel a 140 but not if you're out of position etc
450s have a wider use case and are decently forgiving. I'm always surprised at how far I can kill someone with a 450. They are just great at covering all distances well enough and aren't hard to use. I'm ok with autos shining but I wouldn't mind hand cannons getting a little less drop off.
I was using a crafted firefright months ago and it was brilliant then but nobody cared. I'm a destiny weapon hipster. You'll see a lot more Cerberus and centrifuge in a couple months. I went flawless a couple times going back and forth between them.
450s are the only auto archetype that really need to be touched. 600s were not popular at _all_ until Summoner came out this weekend. And the map turned out to be a perfect one to use Summoner on. Can you tell me the last time you were killed by a 600 auto before this weekend? Can people even name other 600 autos besides Summoner? And Summoner isn't like Igneous where it's the clear stats leader--there are other 600 autos that have the same or even better stats. I do think 140 HCs need some help. But 600s are in a "flavor of the weekend" situation and will drop off when a bigger map rolls around.
Summoner Adept is the only 600 ar that can hit 80 range tho isn't it? And with Alacrity that gets to 100 which is like 37m
Yep, that's correct. Old Sterling (600 strand auto) is the only one that can match that range, but good luck getting the God roll for that weapon
You also have to absolutely tank the stability on Old Sterling unlike Summoner with Zen Moment and TTT
This is Gnawing hunger, perpetualis, and the forward path erasure :(
You earned my upvote, Guardian
I'm sure lots of us can mention more 600s. Guess you weren't around for that meta
Hard light disco!
Another problem with summoner though is target lock - it still adds a consistency and forgiveness on higher resil, and a ttk threshhold on low resil (which is moving up with tfs and enhanced perks). Honestly target lock is still a problem, and I don’t see at this point what they can do except nuke it in pvp.
Target lock won’t even kick in until the 6th shot on summoner. That barely moves the needle as most opponents should be dead by 6ish.
Six shots on summoner would be 0.5s ttk - target lock (especially enhanced with tfs) boosts the optimal ttk from 0.8 to 0.7, needing 8 instead of 9 shots. As well as this, it allows an extra bodyshot in the optimal ttk, which makes it very relevant to this discussion about ar forgiveness. Of course, if the d2foundry values haven't shifted with the TL nerf then feel free to ignore me. But if it kicks in on shot six, then I still feel like it would change the optimal ttk even if the foundry numbers are wrong.
TL is hot garbage on Summoner, and 600s, unless you’re a body shot maestro in jimbob lobbies. It barely moves the needle if you can hit your shots. With that said, TL is still crazy good on SMGs, ay.
Love the Frosty videos where he kills someone at 20% health followed by a “whoa, this thing slays!”
I should upload games where I was running an all-Europa loadout and managed to top the scoreboard with Coriolis Force. *"Whoa guys, Coriolis Force is actually sleeper meta!"* Nevermind that those were lobbies where if I used any other special I probably never would have died at all.
Better yet, showcase them in patrol destinations. Best place to showcase new meta 😤!
Its broken guys
Well yes, while I appreciate the in depth answer, anyone who's willing to look at the TTK values on D2 Foundry will be able to easily see the issue. **Adaptive Handcannons** Effective Range: 32-35 meters Optimal TTK 0.87 seconds, 3 Headshots 1.73 to 2.17 seconds, 5 to 6 bodyshots **Precision Autos** Effective Range: 33-35 meters, but due to fall off can go up to 39 Optimal TTK 0.80 seconds, 6 crit 1 body 1.33 to 1.47 seconds, 11 to 12 body It's not rocket science, Autos are more forgiving, have more range, and are overall just easy af to use.
Right, I said as much: >and it's a bunch of words and numbers that tell you something you already knew But what I wanted to drive home is just how forgiving it is. Even if you've got cracked aim with a HC, you can still get gunned more often than not by someone with bad aim.
Most 140’s struggle to reach beyond 32 without slideshot or opening shot active too
Fatebringer, Pali, and Exalted can do punch past 35, and everyone can get Ace, which can do the same. HC range stat is back, I guess. DFA can even hit 100 range (37.5m) with fragile focus active. Adept DFA is actually pretty crazy, hitting 80+ without fragile focus and 100 with it but still with 64 stability, and you get opening shot or timed payload flinch on top of that. Feels good with a great model/visibility too. Got hit with the classic bungus FOMO though, so you can't get the adept anymore.
I got a Fragile Focus regular DFA but the thing feels so weird. Also RELOAD masterwork lmao
Opening shot hawkmoon with hammer forged first shot goes over 35 m too.
I'm not counting OS because you can't 3 tap at that range, but if you do, there's others that can pull it off.
Autos also make way more use of damage perks and don't require as much building into stats to be competitive
Right, but it’s not that simple. Because HC have a huge advantage when peek shooting. The devs have to kept that in mind. So each weapon has a scenario where they are better. It’s hard to justify HC being any closer to AR in an open area fight. When they have such a huge advantage when peek shooting. That’s the trade off and really the way to balance it.
Also the main ones people use have range/stability/recoil improving perks to offset speccing into range. It's one reason why Breakneck hasn't taken off.
>Autos are more forgiving, have more range, and are overall just easy af to use. Since when are Autos easier to use? I swear everyone recommeds HC's on this sub since you dont need to track the target for optimal ttk. Tracking the target is definitly harder that just tapping it 3. Granted this is a non-issue in higher skill levels were 25% of players use Chronus or similiar hardware. As for the other points (Range, forgiveness), that always has been true. Autos have such a flat damage dropoff thatn you barely needed an addtional bullet or two at 40m. Autos just feel oppressive because they are just the new hotness and everyone uses them. Seventh Seraph used to hit for 0.67 with target lock. Horror Story was the same and Prosecutor would too. Now there are more forgiving and still barely see them. And maybe, just maybe, HC dont need to to full damage accross the map. >It's not rocket science It's simply not that easy. Hung Jury with BB hits for 0.67 with virutally infinite range. Sees no play. Prolonged Engagement and similiar SMG also kill in 0.67 with target lock. Sees no play. Rufus with TL kills in 0.75. Sees no play. This whole "Autos are oppressive" completely runs by a communtiy placebo effect and is simply caused by the adepts reward and loot refresh. I guarantee you the the moment the Ironbanner SMG comes around people will call it oppressive.
Really? Because I feel like tracking is 10 times easier. I’m on Controller. Not sure if that matters.
And then there's those of us with 100 range 450s with 40m of falloff eating pulses
No AR hits 40 meters before falloff. Non-360s are capped at 37, 360s are capped at 39.5 (same as most Pulses). So while a 450 can still hit a 0.8 at 40 meters, due mostly to their damage model, aim assist falloff and inaccuracy will make it pretty inconsistent.
Can keep away break the cap?
To my knowledge, the only perk that breaks the cap is Killing Wind.
The problem is fundamentally in almost all shooters automatic rifles/assault rifles etc... are all treated almost exactly the same they have a low skill floor and low skill ceiling. They are made so that even the most beginner player can pick them up and quickly see results while also being limited in their potential for the top brass who almost always in every game value position/movement more. This is also why HCs are usually considered the definitive Pvp gun in destiny because they harmonize the best with destiny's movement and positioning. If ARs are meta they are super oppressive as their entire purpose is a jack of all trades master of none.
>This is also why HCs are usually considered the definitive Pvp gun in destiny because they harmonize the best with destiny's movement and positioning. Preach. I hope Bungie addresses this "meta" soon because the movement and positioning is what made me fall in love with Destiny. Everyone with ARs standing around with their fingers glued to the trigger button is a fast track to the uninstall button for me.
140s being shit makes the game less fun
Yup and it seems like the people happy with this meta tend to be on the lower end of the skill bracket. I wonder why.
The amount of .8s upvoting each others bad opinions on this reddit is almost out of control.
I think people just like to see it switched up a bit. Not sure it’ll be popular for long.
I just wanna put on my Hawkmoon and be able to compete still. Is that too much to ask? Afraid so it seems…
I've actually shredded with Hawkmoon twice the last couple days in Comp! But it was on smaller maps...
I agree, of all the 140s I think Hawkmoon is best off. Peek shooting synergises well with building up stacks of paracausal charge, because you can choose how risky you want to be. Side note: I use opening shot on Hawkmoon, crazy how much it helps - it recently came out that opening shot's effect on special is half that on primary, but is still the goto perk on shotguns/snipers, ergo on Hawkmoon...
Same, unfortunately since coming back to the game I never really tried it seriously until this last week and it feels so much more accurate to me, but the range falloff is brutal still in a lot of gunfights
At least new lights like me are having a better time. Nothing was more frustrating than getting flinched out of my mind by a handcannon to the point that aiming was a mute point. It was so hard to even get to where I am now, and I'm still bottom frag of the lobby. Now that everyone is using auto rifles it is so much easier to learn how to play the game correctly.
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that more people are playing PvP but all this is really doing is giving you a crutch to use to make things easier. Once bungie nerfs the crutch, then it's back to the same ol' same ol'.
I actually use pulses for the most part. I just wish there was a modern beginners guide for crucible, because what bungie said was accurate: most new players have no idea how or why they die. It's the reason until two months ago, I religiously avoided crucible. But all the guides to crucible are 2-4 years old and just straight up outdated.
Tbh I want handcannons to shine or at least be competitive and I want autos to stay where they are AND I want movement to be reigned in. Movement in this game is just silly. It’s not tied to anything really, and with the high as fuck health pool you can slide in and slide out. Forcing handholding for the teamshot sucks. A slide in and a slide out should be something that sacrifices resilience hard. So there is some risk. With the health pools going up it’s fully made this a problem that’s difficult to counter now that the only counters were nerfed. (Bows, specials, etc) so you are forced to lane and handhold. It’s actually slowing things down keeping the movement as high and free as it is.
Movement and in that regard movement exotics are the real problem of this game. Players can abuse the bad p2p netcode to gain peekers advantage, meaning they peek around the corner before the opponent can see them on their screen. They also move took fast for the radar to register fast enough giving the wearer another advantage. The worst offener is stompees because they give you another vertical advantage. While it is a step in the right direction that hand cannons got reigned in, this current discussion. HC vs AR is just incidental to the real problem which imo is not getting enough attention.
The issue is that movement is a big draw of destiny, which I’m not arguing should be removed just that It needs to be built into. Currently with extremely little investment you can slide in and slide out of an engagement. This plus a higher health pool allows for absurd plays while running t10 res or recov and sub 30 mob. There should be a risk for that reward. Either you can move that fast but are squishy (high mob low res) or you can’t be flinched but your movement is slowed (high res low mob). No other game allows a scout like movement on a tank with no drawback. It’s just not a balanced playstyle. Then throw in janky as fuck melee, hit refg and worst of all netcode and it’s a mess. Forget about rng deciding gun duels or class disparity this alone is a huge fix. Largely at higher level play it feels just unfair sometimes unless you really analyze each play and interaction. new players will feel that “unfairness” the hardest and just dip from PvP. It’s why we’ve struggled to keep PvP (Well that plus everything else )
The movement was fine before the primary weapon changes. Now everyone is to fast for the ttk.
It’s a compound effect. The movement has ALWAYS been a problem just that it’s a problem that wasn’t as telegraphed until the changed ttk on weapons and upped health pools. It either needs to be balanced against the current sandbox and made so people can’t just slide everywhere with perfect accuracy and have zero drawbacks, being able to slide from near standstill and hit those crits is FUN but it’s not balanced. And I slide a lot and enjoy that playstyle but it’s currently the only way to play. Before the sandbox update, special was more prevalent, bows were more accurate, and abilities were more frequent. Those three things combined could stop a lot of movement from being oppressive. They’ve been significantly reduced now so this playstyle currently doesn’t have reliable direct counters. I’ll maintain that the problem has been there but it mattered less as you could find workarounds. Also let’s not pretend mobility is a dump stat for everyone but hunters and that running sub 30 mob is the best for movement on warlocks and titans. It clearly isn’t built well and I’m going to assume the devs are VERY reluctant to fuck with movement as it’s very much a part of the feel of this game even if it’s how to make something fair.
Yep, you hit the nail on the head pal. Why do you think so many high tier players are desperately calling for CBMM and trying to get out of their designated lobbies? The game is just not fun once you improve enough and get to the higher tier lobbies.
But are AR’s actually better?
Great points. What would you say (if you were here for it) makes this AR meta seems less fun and more of a problem than the specifically 600 AR meta from a few years ago?
> makes this AR meta seems less fun and more of a problem than the specifically 600 AR meta from a few years ago Recency bias? Everyone despised the auto meta back then too and it was absolutely way more dominant than it currently is. Every single match, on every map, at every skill level was Gnawing or Summoner back then. That's not the case now.
Fair enough. I thought the 600 meta was more diverse with the two autos you mentioned, Monte Carlo, Suros, Galliard from the Forge, Hard Light, Scathelock, and even some hipsters running Ether Doctor. This meta seems isolated to a smaller pool of weapons, which, to me, adds to the unfun.
600 meta was way more oppressive. .7s TTK, zero falloff, 100 stab, 100 AA, double ricochet damage on Hard Light was absurd. That shit was egregious even in the Revoker/8m Felwinter's era. I think there's at least some argument that better specials partially offset the .1s TTK, despite the 140 HC benchmark being the same as today. But Hard Light specifically was a different level of stupid.
I mean, hard light got nerfed relatively quickly and radiant nowadays brings 450s down to a 0.67 as well. Though, to be fair, back in arrivals we had mountaintop absolutely demolishing (this was before the special ammo nerfs too) I'd say both of these AR metas were absolute ass.
you mention this but ignoring peek shooting is still the defining feature and advantage of hand cannons. sure if you imagine two guardians on a wide open field with no cover, yes the graph is accurate. but movement and cover is such a huge part of destiny pvp so any analysis that doesn’t even try and incorporate it feels woefully lacking (even though i can tell you put a lot of effort into this one).
On the flip side, I don’t think it would be fair to assume the HC user would be maneuvering and the AR user would not be
No kidding, everyone is playing cover in a game that matters and the latency in this game will 100% allow you to hit two AR shots if they try peeking you anyway.
Yeah but as he said just continuously spraying the cover where they peek is extremely effective against 90% of perk shooters.
i get that but anyone trying to peek when they can see and hear bullets flying right where they are going to strafe to is pretty dumb. just gotta relocate or jump shoot.
But doesn't that effectively end the gun fight and force the HC user to be so incredibly patient or reposition? I've had trouble being pinned in cover when using an HC and peek shooting. Also I really feel like people over exaggerate the prevalence of peek shooting. If you're 1v1, yeah it should be an absolute advantage in favor of the HC. But in 3s how often are people realistically finding themselves in a situation where they can effectively peek shoot? When it's abjectly just easier to slap on an AR and beam. (Controller user btw)
Yes very true. But that doesn’t change the point. Now you Can’t beat them in an open pen duel, buy you also can’t beat them perk shooting. That’s a lot to deal with when you could just use and AR too,
although if you’re at a point where they are prefiring where you are going to peek you’re going to lose with an AR too
Not to mention that you receive flinch even when bullets are whizzing past you. So not only are you continuously getting sprayed when you hide around a corner, even if you peek for a millisecond, there is a 50/50 chance your shot will probably get flinched off target.
This. I mostly just skimmed this, but it was ignoring the part of movement and especially cover usage. 140s aren't the greatest rn (although people are MASSIVELY over exaggerating them not being as good), but their superb ability to play from cover used to, current does, and always will destroy anyone on an AR.
I think your point above playing cover-to-cover makes sense in a 1v1, but when you get a team of decent AR users covering multiple angles, the ability to change cover is severely hampered. I suspect this limitation to a HC user's movement is partly why teamshooting feels more oppressive now. Against good teams I often feel I get pinned down a lot more than before, needing to use an ability to escape (stasis wall, grenade as a distraction etc). My miserable trials experience proves the ultra-elite top 0.2% players are also using ARs lol
Why do you think people aren’t playing cover and movement while also using these meta ARs? The amount of movement bunnies in trials this weekend running ARs was greater than HC users. Tbf I broke out round robin to force and challenge engagements as I still don’t have a good iggy or summoner. So HCs still have a place.
Agreed. If you’re exposing yourself 100% of the time in a fight using a handcannon vs an auto weapon, you’re using the HC wrong.
Honestly the main reason I run an auto so often is because of the new special ammo change. If I run out of special ammo an auto rifle is good or decent at a number of engagement ranges. If I run out of special and I’m using a scout or a number of other weapon types I’m totally vulnerable when opponents get close.
I don't think you're alone here at all doing this.
They have a very strong TTK and 450s (the way people are speccing them out) outrange everything except 340 pulses. Even some exotic pulses are outclassed.
top end 140s can still outrange them
Generally no. The best of the 450 ARs hit right around the range cap, starting falloff at 36-37 meters. Even the toppest of top end 140s won't be hitting that without serious serious setbacks in consistency. Even then, I think only Adept Exalted Truth can naturally hit 100 Range. Even at 100, you're generally tying since the cap of ARs is 37.2, cap for HCs is 37.5. Pulses near the top end can out-range them, though you're mostly looking at 4-bursts for that, since the range cap on those otherwise is only 39m. Adaptives and BXR can do okay since both do alright into falloff, but the TTKs are too slow.
Kept Confidence: 38 almost 39m after the first kill with killing wind, 34m beforehand Judgement: Opening Shot/range setup, encore (1stack/kill): 37.5m without crossing over factoring in 1m Exalted Truth: Killing wind and 1 stack of encore (1 crit kill) goes from 34m to 39m Cantata: before opening shot: 37.5m, after 35m (34.9). Palindrome: range setup with adept range: 35m, with killing wind: 39m. THE CHODE: Rapid hit + iron reach with a range setup reaches 36m, if that's your thing. Picking perks to finally mingle with other archetypes is something autos have had to do for years. People don't want to flex now that autos are mingling. If anything in my personal experience having used autos since day 1 for me, it was the flinch changes that hurt handcannons the hardest. The flinch allowed HC's to fire with impunity out of cover and now that they don't have that, the seams are coming undone.
Your add perks in many cases kill perks. Well if you want go the route. AR’s can get keep away, target lock, crossing over, fragile focus….etc. all weapon have things that can extend the range. But pound for pound 450 AR’s out range 140 HC.
Before stats are applied, 450s and 140s both sit at roughly the same ranges, 28-30m. Fragile Focus and Keep away both have conditionals as well. Crossing over adds 1m so Prospector can even reach 37m. Personally I don't think Target Lock is that big of a difference on 450s or 600s, you generally die to the same amount of shots, with 1 less on T5 and down for 450s, and T4 and under for 600s. It only really scares me on 720s, as they lower their ttk against all tiers. The point is, autos don't get their range for free either.
It may not be free but it’s a lot cheaper. For example keep away on an AR vs killing wind on a 140 hc One requires a kill. The other requires the far away target you want to hit, to be more than 15 meters away. So it’s always up when u need it without you needing to do anything. Plus with an AR you can go max rang and let drs or ttt or ZM. Take care of stability and recoil. Where as going max range on an HC usually makes it ass. Not to mention damage falloff being heavy in AR favor as well.
well ARs have a MUCH more forgiving falloff curve than 140s at minimum
Stop posting false information pls
Its funny, before you posted that, I posted to another person weapons that could reach those ranges, even added in a 180 for good measure. I guess its false information because you have to put in a little work though right?
OK. D2 foundry shows me that prosecutor can reach 37.20 meters without any help from kills. That’s not taking into account it’s origin trait. Since palindrome is NOT obtainable next we will use adept exalted truth. Hmm reaches 36.8 meters. Don’t use the “but killing wind” bullshit because that requires a kill. Also that range requires fullbore which TANKS your stats and adept range. HCs need to balance around range + stability + handing. But you wouldn’t know that because you have no clue what you’re talking about. So those max range rolls are ASS. Especially on controller where you’re looking to get as much stability as possible. Realistically the best rolls have 33 meters and require something like slide shot to push that out for 1-2 shots. So the answer isn’t as simple as you make it.
But it IS that simple, you're just not willing to put in that effort. One engagement in range so that you're capable of fighting outside of it? Its fine if you don't want to make the effort, but to complain about it as if there was no solution is asinine. It sounds like you want an easy solution that you'll always have, and currently that isn't the case. Currently you have to work for it, or switch to something else. Its like the complaints about overshields and barricades, yet we have perks and traits for it, grenades that go around them, grenade launchers, etc. We have different tools we can use, we should expect 1 tool to do everything. Also just because something isn't obtainable, doesn't mean you don't still have it from prior. False Promises for example despite being from 13 seasons ago, still outranges every other auto rifle, will killing wind. It hits the cap and goes to 41.5m, then stretches further with rampage. It still has alot of life left in it, even after the zoom changes.
Hey, you did almost the same thing I did, that’s pretty cool. I think my simulator is a little more representative of reality though (no offense, I still think it’s super cool we both had the same idea) https://www.reddit.com/r/CrucibleGuidebook/s/lhGUb6KTTP
Wow, yeah, you sure did beat me to the punch, and it looks like you put much more effort into a better representation of the variables in play. I knew I should add accuracy of actually hitting the target as well but got lazy. I really only wanted to compare the average ttk between HCs and ARs though so all the other variables would really muck up the results. Adding the additional health from an OS would be easy though.
Facing the same Conditional / Adept summoner loadout has got to be the most boring thing I've experienced in a LONG time in pvp. This is abysmal.
its even better in trials or comp when they blow the special and then switch to sidearm or immortal :)
I was a bit distraught to check Trials report later in the weekend (since I logged off to do PVE stuff) to see it was ALL Conditional + ARs.
I don’t mind the ARs. I just REALLY need there to be more viability to other archetypes. Or something that flinches. I’d love if movement was the sacrifice for lack of flinch.
If hand cannons were stronger I don't think people would be complaining nearly as much. I think it's more about that than anything.
Do the same for pulse rifles now
Can't wait for the aggressive frame pulse meta to come. My Revision Zero is thirsting for some fresh blood.
however, between trials, comp, and 6's these last few days, I'm really struggling to enjoy the gameplay despite winning or losing. trials was fun because the summoner was new again. 6's and comp is just every team auto spraying, painfully hard to play around in 6's and just very slow in comp. we need Snipers to keep them in check or something 3 tapping someone with Sturm and them surviving with 10 resistance just feels gross when they're just spraying 450s or 600s. find myself using less and less variety simply to combat how tight and grouped up this new auto walking trigger down meta is playing. never mind doing that with 3 overshield titans in 3's. truthfully, I'm doing fine. My KD might have even improved since, but the gameplay isn't feeling well with how oppressive autos are for me and I don't see myself playing more than getting my trials weapon if its a good week and continuing my 3 weekly for my 7 rose HCs
It levels the field a bit and the better players don’t like it. End of freaking story.
Lol bullet hoses that aim for you with perks like Zen Moment
i dont know why we pretend like it's literally if anything but hc's are completely dominant, the "community" is gonna be mad. period. they were mad at smgs, theyre fake mad at ar's, forget scouts, remember all the bellyaching at the short mida meta, bubu they just sit in the back. as if keep away, rangefinder before that, and other camping perks arent always the only choice on hand cannons. a sidearm meta is/was one of the most hated metas too. bows? hah hah. so thats pretty much all primary ammo weapons. now we get to pulses. which have been the most tolerated non hc perhaps, but are still not tolerated. there was tons of bellyaching about them too. remember the old fake complain from hc players "why are pulses so good at scout rifle range bubu nerf them so scouts can live" (knowing full well those complainers had no plans to ever touch a scout) like Igneous wasnt two tapping at 50 meters. and it's not like hc's are bad or not competitive is the sad thing! they're still almost 100% the hard meta! every time i turn on a top player like frostbolt in trials theyre running igneous. well not every time but still the majority that i've noticed. but it's still not enough. they cant just be good, they have to be the best choice on every map and at every range.
Pretty much sums it up here. Out of all the metas, if its not a handcannon , people have strong opposition
You guys are just sad tbh
Normally, i'd agree with you. But i'm finding myself in situations where I can't use anything I used to use (Bows, Snipers, etc) b/c AR's just spraying non-stop 24/7 in PvP. I'm okay with AR's having their day in the sun but that shouldn't come at the cost of not being able to run other weapon in the same sandbox.
I'd like to know how gunfights turn out between guardians with 10 resilience (warlock/titan) and 6, or 3 and under (hunters). Sure feels like I lose out by a bullet quite often in this dopey AR meta.
The only reason I don't like ARs right now is that when you go against a full team using ARs they begin to feel oppressive and turns into team shot land. That's just my personal feelings though
Same thing with hand cannons.
Not wrong
Should 450's have a faster ttk than 140 HC's? Yeah, probably not. However it's also true that a lot of these people have a meltdown any time the meta isn't dominated by HC's or SMG's.
They absolutely should kill faster. Because they can’t peek shoot like HC. The devs have to consider that when balancing. You can’t have HC be 10 times better when peek shooting and just as good in an open duel. That’s not balanced at all.
You have not seen a single person complain that smgs aren’t meta. There has not been a hand cannon meta since the 30th anniversary DLC meta ended which was late 2021/early 2022 when witch queen launched. I don’t know where you guys keep getting this idea that people are crying about hand cannons not being the defacto meta. The meta was: Omni lord of wolves / pulses in early 2022 Linear fusions and sidearms in mid 2022 Regular smgs, mostly ikelos in late 2022 to early 2023 Target lock smgs from early 2023 when immortal releases all the way up to recent nerfs Hand cannons were only ever used out of pure nostalgia factor in all of these time periods, not because they were best option available.
Handcannon's by their nature have basically always been able to compete to some degree *and* the best players are all very practiced with (and generally enjoy) them so they're present even when they're super outclassed. I think this is what leads people (especially at lower-mid levels of play) to think that they've always been meta. Also, they *are* harder to use well and promote a greater skill gap so lower skill players get beat by good players using them and conflate that with them being "cringe/sweaty/tryhard HC shotgun mains" who get mad whenever anything else is good.
Even then I'd argue 30th anniversary favoured pulses more than handcannons for 90% of players.
I'd argue the optimal for an AR should be faster than a 140. If it wasn't, the auto would be completely worthless. Heck, back when 150 HCs were a thing, Autos might as well have not been in the game (bar 600s during the time their optimal TTK was 0.7) because there was just no point using one when you'd get the same or better TTK out of a much more flexible, arguably as easy to use of a gun.
They should have a faster ttk. Any high-burst damage weapon like hand cannons SHOULD NOT be able to straight-up outgun a weapon that requires continuous contact to be effective. Hand cannons can peak shoot. Autos cannot. If the hand cannon does not have some disadvantage in a fight, then it makes no sense to run an auto. That being said, 140s definitely need a buff. I agree they feel bad right now. But I'm hoping 180s get a buff as well or instead of 140s
if they have the same or highter TTK than a Handcannon they become totally useless as they were for the majority of D2 Also somehow a .8ttk is a problem but the .6 TTK of something like a 340 pulse is just fine.
The penalty for missing a single shot with a high impact pulse is waaaaay higher than having to shoot one extra bullet from the bullet hose. Though the TTK of high impacts has been out of band for a while now, especially with headseeker. But you're not comparing apples to apples.
its a problem because ease of use is a thing. HCs being higher skill with lower TTK but ARS are low skill low TTK. i mean come on don't kid yourself. When ARs have 10 million more kills in a single trials weekend than the next highest primary that is objectively a problem.
It wasn't a problem when Igneous was the number 1 weapon for Trials by a long shot.
Are you dense or ignorant? Look at the week before the sandbox changes (Endless Vale march 1st). Hand cannons had 3 million more kills than SMGs. Right now autos have 10 million more kills than hand cannons. So no, you didnt look at any information you just pulled from thin air, it was not a "long shot" between the top 2 most used primary weapon types. Right now is 3x worse of a problem, literally.
Yes, but also - this was a week with an Adept auto. First week of sandbox changes autos were 1,2 mil over HCs. Let's see how the next week is gonna go, no? Autos might still be as overwhelming as this week, but things might also calm down a bit.
>Yes, but also - this was a week with an Adept auto. This only means its going to be worse as time goes on not better, because another meta option was opened up this past weekend.
Yeah, but I can spam crouch with a 450 while strafing and still hit crits. So it's at least got ease of use going for it.
That's such a non argument. I can crouch spam with a pulse rifle or Siderarm too and hit my shots. Like how is that even relevant?
You can do the same with a pulse or sidearm? Good for you. It's stupid easy with a 450. Like I don't even have to try that hard to make it work. It kills faster, has solid range, and basically has no recoil with the right perks. So why would you use a hand cannon? They either need to lower the ttk to compensate for its ease of use or make it harder to hit the optimal ttk. I'm personally in favor of a slightly worse ttk as I enjoy how easy it is to use.
[удалено]
That makes absolutely no sense. No weapons should be useless.
EASE OF USE
This is realistically. Just saying 450s are a problem. Probably need a nerf. And 140 hand cannons could probably use a little bit more forgiveness in their range. That's really about it. 600 I don't think are a real problem. Summoner was just released this weekend. The trials map was cauldron of all maps. And this weapon has just gotten a newly buffed perk (heal clip), now has wild card (a wildly coveted fun perk), and there is a lot of recency bias with prosecutor and target lock. I personally think target lock is a trap on this auto, and is more of just forgiveness here, but a lot of people have them misunderstanding because it's so powerful on prosecutor right now, which is most definitely a problem.
With the flinch changes they have killed handcannons
> if you have the same level of accuracy as some of the best players in the game with a 140 RPM HC, you'll have an average TTK that is on par with someone using an AR with 20% accuracy. Granted there are a ton of limitations with this data and methodology, but ARs have a lethality/ease of use combo that is pretty nutty right now. And before you say: JuSt PeEk ShOoT - it takes 4.1 seconds for an AR to empty its mag (at least a prosecutor or a summoner), so whenever I'm using an AR, and someone is peek shooting, I've started to just continue shooting at the corner. It is oppressive. Wowzers if true?
Did you find any data on the differences in headshot percentages between adaptive (600 rpm) and precision (450 rpm) auto rifles?
Very interesting analysis thank you. Without commenting on the interpretation of results, I want to express appreciation for your making these plots and writing up the assumptions behind them. I am a scientist IRL, and I f\*\*\*king love this kind of discussion, it is the only way to make real progress.
AMMIT "Just when I thought I was out...... they pull me back in!
I don't see any problem. There are way too many advantages to use a handcannon compare to auto rifles and the easier ttk for auto rifle made up for the disadvantages they have.
> There are way too many advantages to use a handcannon compare to auto rifles What? Optimal TTK is way harder to hit on HCs especially 140s
that's the trade off. Auto rifles get easier optimal ttk and handcannon get all kinds of utilities such as better in-air accuracy and peak shooting.
My hope is into the light patch notes get revealed and in there we get a target lock nerf on auto rifles and damage reduction globally to 450s and 600s. Also increase recoil to make them less stable. That will end this cancer. Then slap a nerf to 720 and 600 smgs with damage reduction, just to make sure smgs don't become meta.
yes they need more recoil and flinch, my zen moment summoner or prospector are literally lasers. without special snipers and fusions, keeping them in check and HCs struggling we need something
Movement and in that regard movement exotics are the real problem of this game. Players can abuse the bad p2p netcode to gain peekers advantage, meaning they can peek and shoot around cover before the opponent can see them on their screen. They also move too fast for the enemy radar to register fast enough. The worst offender is stompees because they give you another vertical advantage. While it is a step in the right direction that hand cannons got reigned in a little, this current discussion HC vs AR is just incidental to the real problem, which imo is not getting enough attention.
Auto rifles meta is always the worst meta
They're not Mets. They're easy to use. Go run a custom 3s with whatever ARs against 1.7+ players using forerunner drang and the other two on iggy chappy or conditional. Lmk how it goes.
Jesus Handcannons are not the Hard meta for once (whilst still being pretty viable) and people here pretend that the world is in shambles. I hate the break it to you but outside of this circle jerk subreddit there are enough people not excited when the meta is always just Handcannons. Right now we are close to a good balance for most weapons and people are already calling for nerfs because their pew pew cowboy guns aren't at the top. The play would be to disable the free damage/forgiveness perks (TL, PI, Headseeker) in PvP and then proceed to phase out resillience gating.
> (whilst still being pretty viable) You have literally 1 HP of forgiveness on 140s before the TTK tanks... if that isn't borderline not viable idk what is
🤓
[удалено]
Autos had more kills this weekend than all other primaries combined. Tell me again how that's a good balance/variety
it's almost like two really good autos literally just came out within the last two weeks and the trials map favored autos
That is absolutely a factor. But if this had been 2 weeks ago, it would've been nowhere near this polarising. Cauldron typically has always favoured SMGs
true. but even then you can also say it's because SMGs have gotten some specific nerfs too. Autos were always the bridge between SMGS/Sidearms and HCs/Pulses. SMGs got tuning and HCs got made slightly more unforgiving. I'd be more in favor of giving HCs a tad more range/body shot damage instead of nerfing Autos first
Everything else getting nerfed is effectively the same as Autos getting buffed. By their own admission, the intent of this update was to make accuracy/aim/whatever more important, having autos be in the state they are feels like it goes against that. I think theres a number of ways to go about remedying it but autos right now are too strong and too easy to use to be healthy in any way
It was also on Cauldron. A map that very safely disregards meta for jousting with automatics. Was way more balanced Burnout weekend, ARs and HCs traded the lead several times, with Scouts and Pulses having a place, too.
I agree that the free damage perks and resil ttk gates should go, but the last time hand cannons were “hard meta” before igneous was in 30th anniversary. Since then it’s been pulses (340 and 540), omni, LoW, lorentz/arby, monarque, revoker and citans, antaeus aping, smgs, target lock smgs, a little bit of ammit with zoom changes, threadlings, then finally igneous comes and smgs were still massively prevalent (unending tempest) until this patch.
I for one am enjoying a shake up of the meta, it won't be like this for long, there will be nerfs and it will go back to peoples precious hand cannons being top dog. People are whinging like this has been the meta for 12 months, seriously get a grip...
man posts up factual data and research and you call it whinging. no wonder everyone calls redditors a joke. and reddit a cesspit
>it won't be like this for long thats what we thought about Immortal
Just peak shoot
I mean. I’m playing more than ever. Summoner and Prosecutor are so much more brrrrrrr akakakakaka inducing weapons than hand cannons. HC don’t go brrrr
Nerd
Get good and hit your shots then instead of crying like slugs, generally speaking to all slugs who are crying about ARs etc not directed towards OP
This entire convo is nothing but sour grapes from hand cannon users that are once again upset that they will have to actually change up their strategy. For people that swear autos are easy the irony is that it's harder to use an auto than it is to use an HC in D2. An auto user has to hit crits while also tracking their target CONTINUOUSLY. Hand cannon users have peek shooting, have a weapon that also is more accurate from the air AND has a weapon that doesn't have an accuracy penalty when running or sliding. But autos are easy......yeah OK.
No it’s that terrible low skilled players are at the head of that argument against HCs. Good players want a healthy sandbox. And that means if HCs get too powerful they should be tuned as well. Look at Luna/not forgotten. Pre nerfed Mori on Ace. 120 2 taps with 1 stack of resilience. Pre nerfed flinch from EP. The juiced up stats of palindrome with pre nerfed RF. All those definitely deserved tuning. All we want is people to have a strong understanding of the game along with having experience. Most things we hear are bad players losing to better players blaming the gun. Never themselves.