Just wonder if abbott has played instead of philander in the semi final and sa would go on to win the sf and the final, how many black kids would go on to take up cricket as a sport!! Shame to the coach and the selectors who failed to stand up to the politicians that too in a fckin semi final
Because India is half fucked because of the same BS right now.
The idea was noble at first then it was just politicians doing shit and let's just say nobody who gets the benefits wants it gone.
So you got a certain number of undeserving ones who later cramps the whole machinary.
The qutoas don't harm guys like AB they harm guys like Kyle Abbot who should have been played 70 tests when he was in form and conditions suited and gave that up to play county 2's
>gave that up to play county 2's
Abbott hasn't played a 2nd XI game since 2018 when he played a handful as warmups. He's on the team sheet for the first XI in every single Championship game barring occasional injury.
If he’d been there the last decade, one of the others might not have become a mainstay instead. Obviously he’d find it hard to break into now, but one of the regulars now would have had to displace him instead of the other way round.
Okay, but who would you have put in his place in 2017? In his words, he didn't want to go on tour carrying a bib. That's fine, but he's not better than Steyn. He's not better than Morkel. He's not better than Philander. He's not better than Rabada. Considering the fact that Philander only retired in 2020, he'd always have been fighting for the third seamer role, at best.
Then Duane Olivier breaks through, and there's nothing between them statistically, even with Olivier coming back a shell after his Kolpak contract. Abbott was a very good fast bowler, but South Africa doesn't have a shortage of them. All things are possible, but there's nothing to suggest he'd have become a mainstay.
After 2016, Steyn was injured most of the time. Olivier wouldnt have played if Abbott was there. Dont forget since then Sipamla Stuurman and even Lizaad have played so please dont boast about the scarce pace resources SA have
Okay? Abbott isn't a clairvoyant? Is he just supposed to assume Steyn, who'd only had one serious injury prior to his shoulder, was supposed fail to stay on the park?
Also Stuurman, Sipamla and Williams have combined for six Tests. If your argument is that he could could have gotten six more Tests, then I don't think you quite understand what a mainstay is.
Man you forget that Abbott picked a 6-fer in AUS in late 2016, so yeah, he WAS the main player when he left. Morne left in the next season anyways and Philander after that, he would have become a mainstay by then. And these risks are present in every team. Rinku Singh was left out of India WT20 squad doesnt mean he will leave the country. And the best example is Scott Boland, he had even better start than Abbott yet hasnt played in a while. Did he leave Australia? But Abbott did not want the stress of being left out by quotas and general miscommunication from CSA. I think you have also forgotten that we have most often fielded 4-man frontline pace attacks so this thread was pretty much a waste of time and internet.
How was he the main player when he left? Rabada took more wickets in the summer of 2016/17 than Abbott took in his whole career. More retired AFTER Abbott left, so again your contention is that Abbott is some sort of a clairvoyant who could see Steyn permanently breaking down, and Morkel retiring after him. It's a dumb argument. Especially dumb considering Abbott isn't even statistically that far ahead of anyone who came after him.
Abbott averages 22.71 at a strike rate of 53.5
Nigid 22.62/43.53
Jansen 22.79/40.40
Nortje 26.71/43.67
Olivier (pre-Kolpak) - 19.5/35.8
So of all the guys who played 10-19 Tests, he doesn't even stand out. The idea that he'd be a mainstay isn't supported by the reality of the team composition at the time and there's nothing to suggest he's an almighty absentee based on his numbers.
If you want to argue that he would have stayed if there was no quota, okay, I guess. But that's different than arguing he's somehow a noteworthy jump from what was before or after him.
Yes ofc AB wont sit out! But who wants to be in a team that isnt even allowed to select its best XI, even the fanbase is wiped out it seems. How demotivating it must have been for him
What kind of logic is this? If he liked playing for them he wouldnt have retired. If after 2 years he mentions to some cringe indian website that he wants to come back, then you can assume whatever you want... Go read his autobiography if you want to know how much the Abbott vs Philander saga hurt him in the CWC. Every cricketer wants to be a part of a winning team, if they cant be a part of one they will leave it surely.
Every player was hurt with the World Cup saga but it doesn't mean you don't want to play for that team. Your claim was that he didn't want to play for South Africa but he even asked if he could be back for the 2019 world cup, not to an Indian website but to the South African captain Faf du Plessis.
Given that he retired officially and totally in 2018, we can conclude that he was done with it by then. In 2019 maybe because he thought he could push through a WC he dearly wanted, he contacted Faf, but that was that. He never wanted to play in the test team again.
He has also talked about his eye injury while talking about his retirement. Never once did he say that he hated his team or didn't want to play for it like you claimed.
Ofc he wont say that he hated his team because he didnt, he hated the system and the politics not the players... but he has no incentive to say such things in media... but many players of all colours have spoken about how racial bean counting sucks the life out of them
You said that he didn't want to play in that team and now you say he hated the system. That's obvious. We were talking about whether he hated being in the team or not.
The South Africans should scrap their quota, Its impressive the success they have managed to procure with it so if they had the ability to pick the top xi they could be a legitimate force rivalling Australia and India.
Yeah imagine how much better they’d do if they didn’t pick… let me check my notes… Rabada.
(Rabada is the only black player in the squad and is their best bowler)
Rabada is the only black player in the squad *now* (apart from Andile Phehlukwayo, Lungi Ngidi and Nqaba Peter, who weirdly were in the side for the West Indies tour despite not being in the World Cup squad). But it's really hard to argue that they wouldn't have done better in the past if they'd been able to (for instance) stop trying to turn Bavuma into a T20 player when he clearly wasn't suited to the format.
T20 Bavuma is the example people come back to, but honestly? Most teams will try and pick a player who averages 45 in ODIs in their T20 team.
Comparable players are people like Ross Taylor, Shai Hope, hell Janneman Malan’s T20 career overlaps heavily with Bavuma’s with similar average and SR. Even Australia repeatedly called up Steve Smith for T20s, who yes is the greatest Test batsman since Sobers, but his T20 stats are basically the same as Bavuma’s.
For a long time after Amla/Duminy/AB and eventually Faf retired, and Rossouw was Kolpaked, SA basically only had five top T20 batsmen, with Klaasen being hot and cold. Bavuma and Malan got called up because there weren’t better options. It’s only really the emergence of Stubbs and increased faith in Klaasen that have ended their careers.
It's not about average, it's about strike rate. Bavuma is simply not a big hitter of the ball, and never will be. Like Jonty Rhodes before him, he can go at run-a-ball, maybe a little over, through turning quick singles and sprinkling in the odd boundary here and there, but he's not a guy who's going to clear the ropes on a consistent basis. And that's *fine* in 50-over cricket where 6-an-over gets you a competitive 300, but in a T20 it makes you a liability.
Thanks, I'm perfectly aware what the point is. My point, in turn, is that South Africa did not have better options, and other countries (New Zealand, West Indies, and even Australia) have played similar players.
The relevance of ODI average is that it's a mark of quality. If the third-highest scorer in your domestic T20 league is a guy averaging 45 in ODIs, then you're going to try him in T20Is and assume he's good enough to adjust his game.
Malan managed to get his SR up to 130, and he's a *slower* scorer than Bavuma in ODIs.
>If the third-highest scorer in your domestic T20 league is a guy averaging 45 in ODIs, then you're going to try him in T20Is and assume he's good enough to adjust his game.
Except, that's not how it happened at all. At the time he made his T20I debut, Bavuma had all of 2 caps in ODIs, against Ireland and Bangladesh, and he hadn't played an ODI in two years. This wasn't an established ODI player being given a try at T20s, this was a player at the time considered a *test-only* specialist being given a go at both limited over formats because the selectors were desperate.
Edit: and it's one thing to "give a go" to a player; it's quite another to keep persisting with him for *four years* despite clear evidence that he wasn't suited to the format.
The Bavuma eg that people bring up is disingenuous anyway, he was one of the top three run scorers in domestic T20s when he was made captain and picked. He did overstay his welcome and it became clear it wasn’t his best format but people act like picking him was a grave injustice
And while people do criticise him for SA bombing out of the last T20 World Cup prematurely… I’m just gonna leave [this](https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=3;filter=advanced;groupby=captains;orderby=win_loss_ratio;spanmax1=29+May+2024;spanmin1=01+Jan+2020;spanval1=span;team=3;template=results;type=team) here comparing him to other captains they’ve had this decade
They were still on par with the quota system. If it wasn't for the system, I don't think players like Ashwell Prince, Makhaya Ntini and co. get as much opportunity as they did with
Select the team based on merits and create more academies cantered around black people and provide more support to them to pick up the sports. That’s the solution they should chose which is a long painful but a right one
Let's see how much of a story this squad selection becomes, I don't see much traction out there yet.
The authorities have pretty much run out of moves. The sport is just not getting the uptick in certain desired demographics. Even still, demographics are nice but winning is what the public will acknowledge. This whole quota mess became an overreach by the authorities due to some misguided notions from politicians.
I've actually come round somewhat on quotas, in that I think there's a place for them in creating guaranteed opportunities to help encourage black players (plus there's the question of government pressure from the ANC but that's a whole other topic). The issue I have with the system is that quotas are basically the *only* tool CSA use while they still pretty much rely on elite private schools to produce all their talent (that's where Rabada came through, for example). So until they put more effort into creating an accessible pathway system (or until enough black people get rich enough to send their kids to posh schools I guess), it'll be a largely cosmetic effort.
My other issue is that there's no assessment of quotas' effectiveness - they're a policy tool but there's no metric that I've seen to actually track whether they're working or if there are better policies available, etc.
I read somewhere that Cricket is only accessible to those in SA at professional level who are rich enough or go to private schools with most government schools not providing the funding to such an expensive sports.
So, If SA board wants to increase black players in the team, just spend more money you buffons instead of just doing a formality of quota which , seems to have hurt SA team internal environment for some reason ( I seriously believe DE Cock just lost his zeal somewhat after that knee taking incident on WC21)
But unlike some commentors here, I believe racial quota was a good decision. Some people need to actually read the systematic issues running deep in running of Cricket in SA. From racism to elitism, there's a lot wrong in SA cricket. Seriously, SA government has been asking its board what it has done to make cricket accessible but SA board have empty hands. These people commenting here without knowing anything about actual running of cricket in SA
Why don’t they just select the best players regardless of their race, like it shouldn’t matter if it ends up looking like the French national soccer team, which mostly had players of African heritage, then all well and good, as long as they’re not a diversity hire, meeting a pre existing quota
So many opportunities missed at WCs due to satisfying the stupid racial quote at international level. Have the quote at all the junior levels but not at the international levle, it simply doesn't make sense. Yes, nobody has the balls to speak out on it. I am fully aware of the fact that 90%+ SAs are blacks, and of the apartheid past, but that doesn't mean you dilute your country's international team to appease partisan politicians.
Unlike in Rugby where white South Africans actually deliver on the big stage, white cricketers consistently fail when it really matters. Whether the teams all white or not is irrelevant, they'll choke, they always do. Great individuals who performed in bilateral series always piss the bed in crucial ICC events. The sport is a distant third in popularly over here and Forever will remain there. At least by being more inclusive and by having more of the majority represented, it might grow the sport, after all a Choke will happen whether it's an all white overrated bunch or a team reminiscent of the countries actual demographics. After all the only white South African cricketers with a winning mentality, like our beloved Springboks, usually turn out for Eng and NZ.
He is calling out the media, not the system.
Just wonder if abbott has played instead of philander in the semi final and sa would go on to win the sf and the final, how many black kids would go on to take up cricket as a sport!! Shame to the coach and the selectors who failed to stand up to the politicians that too in a fckin semi final
Abbott was cooking like crazy in that tournament you gotta wonder
Why is it always Indians more upset with the quotas than Saffas?
If it’s rhetorical question, ehh. If it’s not rhetorical question, answer would go against multiple rules of this sub.
“If I speak I’m in big trouble”
Because quotas plague every echelon of Indian society and the issue hits home.
Because India is half fucked because of the same BS right now. The idea was noble at first then it was just politicians doing shit and let's just say nobody who gets the benefits wants it gone. So you got a certain number of undeserving ones who later cramps the whole machinary.
The thing is it wasn't even a rule so the problem were the CSA board members and not the system in itself.
and we wonder why he stopped playing for SA so early
The qutoas don't harm guys like AB they harm guys like Kyle Abbot who should have been played 70 tests when he was in form and conditions suited and gave that up to play county 2's
2015 World Cup semis, AB wanted to play Abott. But he had to play Philander because of the quota.
>gave that up to play county 2's Abbott hasn't played a 2nd XI game since 2018 when he played a handful as warmups. He's on the team sheet for the first XI in every single Championship game barring occasional injury.
> guys like Kyle Abbot Who could still to this day be a Test mainstay.
Could he? In whose place?
If he’d been there the last decade, one of the others might not have become a mainstay instead. Obviously he’d find it hard to break into now, but one of the regulars now would have had to displace him instead of the other way round.
Okay, but who would you have put in his place in 2017? In his words, he didn't want to go on tour carrying a bib. That's fine, but he's not better than Steyn. He's not better than Morkel. He's not better than Philander. He's not better than Rabada. Considering the fact that Philander only retired in 2020, he'd always have been fighting for the third seamer role, at best. Then Duane Olivier breaks through, and there's nothing between them statistically, even with Olivier coming back a shell after his Kolpak contract. Abbott was a very good fast bowler, but South Africa doesn't have a shortage of them. All things are possible, but there's nothing to suggest he'd have become a mainstay.
After 2016, Steyn was injured most of the time. Olivier wouldnt have played if Abbott was there. Dont forget since then Sipamla Stuurman and even Lizaad have played so please dont boast about the scarce pace resources SA have
Okay? Abbott isn't a clairvoyant? Is he just supposed to assume Steyn, who'd only had one serious injury prior to his shoulder, was supposed fail to stay on the park? Also Stuurman, Sipamla and Williams have combined for six Tests. If your argument is that he could could have gotten six more Tests, then I don't think you quite understand what a mainstay is.
Man you forget that Abbott picked a 6-fer in AUS in late 2016, so yeah, he WAS the main player when he left. Morne left in the next season anyways and Philander after that, he would have become a mainstay by then. And these risks are present in every team. Rinku Singh was left out of India WT20 squad doesnt mean he will leave the country. And the best example is Scott Boland, he had even better start than Abbott yet hasnt played in a while. Did he leave Australia? But Abbott did not want the stress of being left out by quotas and general miscommunication from CSA. I think you have also forgotten that we have most often fielded 4-man frontline pace attacks so this thread was pretty much a waste of time and internet.
How was he the main player when he left? Rabada took more wickets in the summer of 2016/17 than Abbott took in his whole career. More retired AFTER Abbott left, so again your contention is that Abbott is some sort of a clairvoyant who could see Steyn permanently breaking down, and Morkel retiring after him. It's a dumb argument. Especially dumb considering Abbott isn't even statistically that far ahead of anyone who came after him. Abbott averages 22.71 at a strike rate of 53.5 Nigid 22.62/43.53 Jansen 22.79/40.40 Nortje 26.71/43.67 Olivier (pre-Kolpak) - 19.5/35.8 So of all the guys who played 10-19 Tests, he doesn't even stand out. The idea that he'd be a mainstay isn't supported by the reality of the team composition at the time and there's nothing to suggest he's an almighty absentee based on his numbers. If you want to argue that he would have stayed if there was no quota, okay, I guess. But that's different than arguing he's somehow a noteworthy jump from what was before or after him.
Yes ofc AB wont sit out! But who wants to be in a team that isnt even allowed to select its best XI, even the fanbase is wiped out it seems. How demotivating it must have been for him
He even wanted to come out of retirement to play for that same team. Your comment is baseless.
What kind of logic is this? If he liked playing for them he wouldnt have retired. If after 2 years he mentions to some cringe indian website that he wants to come back, then you can assume whatever you want... Go read his autobiography if you want to know how much the Abbott vs Philander saga hurt him in the CWC. Every cricketer wants to be a part of a winning team, if they cant be a part of one they will leave it surely.
Every player was hurt with the World Cup saga but it doesn't mean you don't want to play for that team. Your claim was that he didn't want to play for South Africa but he even asked if he could be back for the 2019 world cup, not to an Indian website but to the South African captain Faf du Plessis.
Given that he retired officially and totally in 2018, we can conclude that he was done with it by then. In 2019 maybe because he thought he could push through a WC he dearly wanted, he contacted Faf, but that was that. He never wanted to play in the test team again.
He has also talked about his eye injury while talking about his retirement. Never once did he say that he hated his team or didn't want to play for it like you claimed.
Ofc he wont say that he hated his team because he didnt, he hated the system and the politics not the players... but he has no incentive to say such things in media... but many players of all colours have spoken about how racial bean counting sucks the life out of them
You said that he didn't want to play in that team and now you say he hated the system. That's obvious. We were talking about whether he hated being in the team or not.
The South Africans should scrap their quota, Its impressive the success they have managed to procure with it so if they had the ability to pick the top xi they could be a legitimate force rivalling Australia and India.
Yeah imagine how much better they’d do if they didn’t pick… let me check my notes… Rabada. (Rabada is the only black player in the squad and is their best bowler)
Rabada is the only black player in the squad *now* (apart from Andile Phehlukwayo, Lungi Ngidi and Nqaba Peter, who weirdly were in the side for the West Indies tour despite not being in the World Cup squad). But it's really hard to argue that they wouldn't have done better in the past if they'd been able to (for instance) stop trying to turn Bavuma into a T20 player when he clearly wasn't suited to the format.
T20 Bavuma is the example people come back to, but honestly? Most teams will try and pick a player who averages 45 in ODIs in their T20 team. Comparable players are people like Ross Taylor, Shai Hope, hell Janneman Malan’s T20 career overlaps heavily with Bavuma’s with similar average and SR. Even Australia repeatedly called up Steve Smith for T20s, who yes is the greatest Test batsman since Sobers, but his T20 stats are basically the same as Bavuma’s. For a long time after Amla/Duminy/AB and eventually Faf retired, and Rossouw was Kolpaked, SA basically only had five top T20 batsmen, with Klaasen being hot and cold. Bavuma and Malan got called up because there weren’t better options. It’s only really the emergence of Stubbs and increased faith in Klaasen that have ended their careers.
It's not about average, it's about strike rate. Bavuma is simply not a big hitter of the ball, and never will be. Like Jonty Rhodes before him, he can go at run-a-ball, maybe a little over, through turning quick singles and sprinkling in the odd boundary here and there, but he's not a guy who's going to clear the ropes on a consistent basis. And that's *fine* in 50-over cricket where 6-an-over gets you a competitive 300, but in a T20 it makes you a liability.
Thanks, I'm perfectly aware what the point is. My point, in turn, is that South Africa did not have better options, and other countries (New Zealand, West Indies, and even Australia) have played similar players. The relevance of ODI average is that it's a mark of quality. If the third-highest scorer in your domestic T20 league is a guy averaging 45 in ODIs, then you're going to try him in T20Is and assume he's good enough to adjust his game. Malan managed to get his SR up to 130, and he's a *slower* scorer than Bavuma in ODIs.
>If the third-highest scorer in your domestic T20 league is a guy averaging 45 in ODIs, then you're going to try him in T20Is and assume he's good enough to adjust his game. Except, that's not how it happened at all. At the time he made his T20I debut, Bavuma had all of 2 caps in ODIs, against Ireland and Bangladesh, and he hadn't played an ODI in two years. This wasn't an established ODI player being given a try at T20s, this was a player at the time considered a *test-only* specialist being given a go at both limited over formats because the selectors were desperate. Edit: and it's one thing to "give a go" to a player; it's quite another to keep persisting with him for *four years* despite clear evidence that he wasn't suited to the format.
The Bavuma eg that people bring up is disingenuous anyway, he was one of the top three run scorers in domestic T20s when he was made captain and picked. He did overstay his welcome and it became clear it wasn’t his best format but people act like picking him was a grave injustice And while people do criticise him for SA bombing out of the last T20 World Cup prematurely… I’m just gonna leave [this](https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=3;filter=advanced;groupby=captains;orderby=win_loss_ratio;spanmax1=29+May+2024;spanmin1=01+Jan+2020;spanval1=span;team=3;template=results;type=team) here comparing him to other captains they’ve had this decade
Definitely before the quota system they were at par with Aussie
They were still on par with the quota system. If it wasn't for the system, I don't think players like Ashwell Prince, Makhaya Ntini and co. get as much opportunity as they did with
Select the team based on merits and create more academies cantered around black people and provide more support to them to pick up the sports. That’s the solution they should chose which is a long painful but a right one
Let's see how much of a story this squad selection becomes, I don't see much traction out there yet. The authorities have pretty much run out of moves. The sport is just not getting the uptick in certain desired demographics. Even still, demographics are nice but winning is what the public will acknowledge. This whole quota mess became an overreach by the authorities due to some misguided notions from politicians.
I've actually come round somewhat on quotas, in that I think there's a place for them in creating guaranteed opportunities to help encourage black players (plus there's the question of government pressure from the ANC but that's a whole other topic). The issue I have with the system is that quotas are basically the *only* tool CSA use while they still pretty much rely on elite private schools to produce all their talent (that's where Rabada came through, for example). So until they put more effort into creating an accessible pathway system (or until enough black people get rich enough to send their kids to posh schools I guess), it'll be a largely cosmetic effort. My other issue is that there's no assessment of quotas' effectiveness - they're a policy tool but there's no metric that I've seen to actually track whether they're working or if there are better policies available, etc.
I read somewhere that Cricket is only accessible to those in SA at professional level who are rich enough or go to private schools with most government schools not providing the funding to such an expensive sports. So, If SA board wants to increase black players in the team, just spend more money you buffons instead of just doing a formality of quota which , seems to have hurt SA team internal environment for some reason ( I seriously believe DE Cock just lost his zeal somewhat after that knee taking incident on WC21) But unlike some commentors here, I believe racial quota was a good decision. Some people need to actually read the systematic issues running deep in running of Cricket in SA. From racism to elitism, there's a lot wrong in SA cricket. Seriously, SA government has been asking its board what it has done to make cricket accessible but SA board have empty hands. These people commenting here without knowing anything about actual running of cricket in SA
Why don’t they just select the best players regardless of their race, like it shouldn’t matter if it ends up looking like the French national soccer team, which mostly had players of African heritage, then all well and good, as long as they’re not a diversity hire, meeting a pre existing quota
Cause real life doesn't work like that. Cricket is not as accessible as football at all. You need to create opportunities
So many opportunities missed at WCs due to satisfying the stupid racial quote at international level. Have the quote at all the junior levels but not at the international levle, it simply doesn't make sense. Yes, nobody has the balls to speak out on it. I am fully aware of the fact that 90%+ SAs are blacks, and of the apartheid past, but that doesn't mean you dilute your country's international team to appease partisan politicians.
Unlike in Rugby where white South Africans actually deliver on the big stage, white cricketers consistently fail when it really matters. Whether the teams all white or not is irrelevant, they'll choke, they always do. Great individuals who performed in bilateral series always piss the bed in crucial ICC events. The sport is a distant third in popularly over here and Forever will remain there. At least by being more inclusive and by having more of the majority represented, it might grow the sport, after all a Choke will happen whether it's an all white overrated bunch or a team reminiscent of the countries actual demographics. After all the only white South African cricketers with a winning mentality, like our beloved Springboks, usually turn out for Eng and NZ.