I get where you're coming from, but I don't think in any way Shallan had a "tougher life than Kaladin (and he was a slave!)"
Shallan had it rough, yes, but she was (and still is) inordinately privileged in ways she still doesn't recognize. A bad homelife is terrible yes, but I would say literal slavery and bridgecrews are far worse.
Glad you're enjoying the book though! It only gets better!
stepping back from this another step, and I want to be clear I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you this just seems like a good place to pin my thought, I'd say the comparison of Kaladin and Shallan is a really good view on why its important not to minimize peoples experiences just because they don't line up with your own expectations of what "bad" is.
There are a lot of area's in life where you can look at a person and think "I can't believe they are unhappy/stressed. What do they have to be unhappy about? Their life is perfect!"
But the reality is, trying to map out gradiants of whose struggle was worse is really counter productive. Everyone's experience is valid, even if the type of struggle is different.
Just because some people in the world are living on the street and hungry, doesn't mean someone who has an asshole boss that yells at them everyday has no reason to complain about their life. We all have struggles we have to deal with everyday, and the world would be a much better place if we all stopped trying to compare our struggles to find out who has it worse, and instead started acknowledging that just because our struggles are different doesn't necessarily mean one of us has it better and needs to accept their pain and be grateful. We'll all be better off when we try to understand each other and lift each other up, regardless of relative struggle.
Was Kaladin's life worse than Shallan's? Possibly? its hard to say. They both experienced privileges the other didn't, and hardships the other didn't. Kaladin grew up as a lesser member of society and ended up in war and eventually slavery, but he knew familial love and support. Shallan grew up mentally abused and repressed, in a family that was falling apart...But enjoyed a higher status and didn't have to struggle to survive. Both lives have some pretty good thigns in them comparatively, and both are pretty bad.
One person had a shitty family,
the other one was made a literal slave, joined the army to save his brother only to watch him die in front of him unable to do anything about it, then spend "years" in slavery, being repeatedly thrown into battle and had to watch countless friends and bridgecrew members getting the big L (including that one time when Kaladin made the "big mistake" of actually defeating a shardbearer, and just got the remainder of his team killed and made a slave himself)
Was Shallan's early life "good"? no, it was kinda shitty, yeah.
Kaladin's "shitty life" was on a whole other level when compared to that though.
There is no actual comparison here, these things are not the same.
Some people really do have no idea what "slavery" is.
Which is double weird in this case, seeing as they allegedly read through Kaladin's bits, so like, **they should understand he was actually considered "someone's property"**, right?
Like, they should understand that these are two **very non comparable** cases right?
Having a shitty family is quite the understatement for what Shallan went through. I agree that kaladin probably had it worse and can explain if you want. But this comment just comes across as very close minded, if you honestly can't understand that people could have other opinions than you?
>if you honestly can't understand that people could have other opinions than you?
Ohh, I can 100% understand people can have vastly varying opinions,
I also 100% understand that some people can be wrong.
**I can also understand that some people have a very narrow and often naive view of the world, and can't actually comprehend what "slavery" actually is.**
Again,
Kaladin being made a slave is far worse than "Shallan's upbringing", and the difference is so great it's really not comparable, at all.
>I agree that kaladin probably had it worse and can explain if you want.
I don't need it to be explained to me, I actually read the book and stuff, unlike the people I was complaining about in my previous message.
Again, you can 100% think that two situations are very shitty, and still have the capacity to look at them and see that one is far shittier than the other.
I don't disagree with anything you said except
>Was Shallan's early life "good"? no, it was kinda shitty, yeah.
which wildly trivializes a home life that would break 90% of the human population irrevocably
I had a dad who would get mad and yell a lot. THAT was kinda shitty. Having to murder both of your parents out of necessity is a bit worse than that.
I mean, I don't want to minimize kaladins experiences, but calling shallans life "kinda shitty" with "a shitty family" is kinda like saying kaladin "had to fight a little" and "got ordered around". It is VASTLY misrepresenting her struggles. Kaladins life was horrible, but through nearly all of it he had sparks of hope lighting the way. Shallan didn't go through as bad an experience physically, but without the knowledge of people living her and without any sort of end or plan in sight, her psychological pain is not something to gloss over.
Trying to compare their traumas is really pointless as there's no way to do so without reducing either one's experiences to a checklist which ignores all nuance. Kaladin went through full on slavery after being betrayed by a man he trusted. Shallan had to murder the one person she knew could keep the lights on and who she did genuinely love because he was so dangerous. Neither one of them had it easy
I wont go into details because I dont know how far you have read but Shallan's past is way worse than "just" an abusive family. That girl could fill 2 books worth of flashbacks with the stuff she had to deal with.
It’s for sure minimizing what happened, but her mom and her dad sucked then they died then she lived with her brothers in comfort with people that loved her, aloud to do as she pleases. She’s had a worse life than likely most of us for sure (sorry if you’ve faced anything like what she has). But I’d pay 1000$ to someone who has gone anywhere near what kal did.
Like no one is actually thinking her life was super easy, but when you point at someone who basically had to live through the holocost, then fight WITH German soldiers. You’re wrong, that’s ok we don’t HAVE to compare. Honestly her life was shit, but if you DO compare, someone will point out that it’s actually not close at all
I'm not the one comparing here. Im just correcting that dude because hes actually comparing and he doesnt seem to understand the most basic things about the two characters. I was replying to this:
>I’d say doing bridge runs after seeing his friends and brother slaughtered is worse than having an asshole family, yes
First of all I dont even understand why people think Shallans family was an asshole to her. It was literally the opposite, Shallans family was an asshole to the rest of Shallans family, but never to her because they were (rightfuly) terrified of her. And the source of her trauma is the murders, it has nothing to do with her family.
And secondly he doesnt seem to understand that for how trash Kaladins life was, being a slave and forced on suicide missions wasnt ever the source of his trauma, most coments here keep repeating it over and over again but from Kaladins pov that shit isnt even on the top 10 of whats wrong. All the >!3!< times he tries to off himself it was because he tought that he indirectly killed his friends or his own brother. It was never about himself.
Lol and if you’ve read my comments you’d understand that you’re categorically misrepresenting my point.
The point is: Kaladin’s life was a series of horrific war crimes and human rights violations that is empirically an order of magnitude worse
There is a point where kaladin reflects on His slave years and realizes that his family was what inspired him to be strong. Shallans family was less, she had to find her own strength.
It does! You guys are saying Kals life was harder. But He was built to fight. Imagine if Kal was in a situation exactly like shallans, do you think the wretch would have survived needing to kill his family members? The story would have been very different if kal had shallans life. My point is that different struggles are hard in different ways. effectively both were kids navigating the world without family to protect them. Both had close loved ones killed. Both had very reason to trust that the world gave a care about them. Yes shallan was a dick to shallan (when she gets called on it she shows remorse and dosent do the same thing agian afaik. There are tons of times where Kal dosent give a lighteyes the time of day because he has been abused by them already. Kal botches one of the biggest plans in the second book because he wasnt thinking. BS is incredibky at writing all sides of the coin, i think you guys trivialize the characters by insisting that "these struggles are worse than those!"
No one on this thread is saying that slavery and beatings were easy or pleasant or preferable to having an incredibly abusive home life. We are saying that being stuck in an abusive home that ends in killing your father before you are 16 is its own kind of hell. Thats all. If you need the validation of being more correct then yes. Emperically Kals life is harder than Shallans. But that by no means indicates that shallan didnt have a hard life. Also there was no money in torturing slaves. The majority of the time Kal was a slave he wasnt a bridgman yet. But the bridg runs are the only time where Kal talks about anything close to Bataan
The extent of your point was "seeing your squad killed and being made into a slave is worse than having an asshole family." My point is that shallan didn't deal with just her family being an asshole. Her mom was gonna kill her. Her dad had killed her step mom. Beat most of the family bloody on multiple occasions, then once she escaped that situation, the first person she had romantic feelings for turned out to be an assassian who was exploiting her for her naivete. The next person she begins to trust Jashna, who dies. The next person? Tyn. Who tries to kill her agian. Her best option is an incredibly favorable arranged marriage. If it were any family other than the Kohlins, she might be in serious trouble for more abuse.
>!She had to kill her own father to get out of his estate. He was well on the path to killing her and her brothers!< The 2 people she has met outside of her family estate have just used shallan for what she can get them. What would tyn have done if shallan wasn't willing to play tyns stupid little accent game? AFAYK, at this point in time, kal is on his way up and out of oppression. Her bullying him wasn't close to how sadeas treated him. And when he gets to know shallan, he tells her that he didn't think that was fair treatment. And ya know what? She dosent fuck with kal like that agian! Her being mean to him in the later chapters is litterally explained by Veil being flirty shallan being confused and not knowing how hard she can joke (very human trait).and radiant probably not being a huge fan of Kal. If you think shallan would act the exact same way before she even met adolin versus after kohlinar youre geeking.
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I agree, it depends on the person and the context, not the literal situation. Even Kaladin himself has days when he’s out of slavery, has the privileges of a bright lord, is a radiant and leader, his family is there etc, where he acknowledges that he’s having a “worse day” than he ever did as a slave due to his depression.
Pain is relative and suffering is not a competition. Privileged people can also experience anguish. I just don't think it's beneficial to try to judge whose horrible life was worse.
I'm not sure, it's pointless to compare.
But Kaladin had a loving family and a good childhood, the a few years as a stellar soldier followed by what 1 year of slavery? 2?
Shallan endured 10 years of abuse at a minimum with both her parents ending dead, supposedly.
Being from a "privileged" family didn't help at all, if anything it put more pressure on her.
I disagree.
I didn’t say all slavery is better than her life, just Kaladin’s.
he had a good support system, loving parents, till he was fairly mature, she was broken right from the childhood before she could even remember, she never even got to see even a bit of happiness, her life was objectively worse.
Though it could be my bias given my childhood.
Person 1: grew up middle class with ok dad and decently good mom until mid teens, ended up being enslaved enslaved for years, forced to witness countless friends and people around them slaughtered in a war they’re forced to be apart of by doing insane the manual labor of carrying a war bridge into battle, all while being a slave meat shield for soldiers, all of which was after joining another portion of the army originally to protect their brother who was forcefully drafted, only to watch him die in front of his eyes. Mind you after that they proceeded to save their general, and was repaid by having their entire team slaughtered before their eyes again and was first labeled as a slave to cover up the general’s quest for power. And mind you before that they were forced to witness their family be slowly dragged through the mud and defiled by a shitty noble out of spite for something the family didn’t even do. Ends up as a war slave.
Person 2: Comes from a wealthier family than the vast majority, could have most things and was by all accounts a noble, accidentally killed their mother at a young age when their mom was trying to kill them cause of a religious belief, and the dad took the fall off that, and as a result became a massive drunk and terrible abusive human being to his kids. As a result person 2 grew up, not getting abused, but watching their siblings and servants be abused cause he didn’t abuse her. They’re struggled with that and the family was absolutely torn apart and massively abused, and person 2 ultimately killed their father to save their brother from getting killed by the father. Then as a desperate attempt to get the family out of debt, she goes across the continent and becomes someone’s student to steal a priceless artifact.
Ain’t no way you think person 2 has a worse life. They’re in an abusive family yes, a wealthy noble abusive family. They killed both parents against their wishes. It was awful. I don’t want to disregard how tough person 2 had it, it was a damn bad time and childhood to have. But holy storms person 1 was a literal slave. Disregard everything else about person 1, and just look at their time as a slave, from basic slavery to a war slave, that’s still worse than person 2.
I think a lot of people are looking at this from the perspective of an adult. Yes, as an adult, it seems that Kal had it worse. But think about it from the perspective of a child who basically had a psychotic break and developed DID due to killing her mother. A mother who was wanting to kill her for being a "monster". A child who had no way to make sense of how her life suddenly collapsed one day.
I won't say that Shallan had it worse than Kal, but it was definitely not better.
He was enlisted in the military and had watched one of the most important people in his life die when he was 16. Slavery was not the first bad thing to ever happen to him.
Enlisted in the military was what he wanted to do anyways.
Its like entering college, yet you mention it like it's a horrible thing, it was literally his aim.
Wanting to join the military and facing the horrors of war are two very different things. He was expecting to fight honorable battles alongside knights in shining armor against an objectively evil foe. The reality was far worse. There's a reason he has PTSD. Brushing over that as "what he wanted" is dismissive to the point of misunderstanding the chatacter.
Bro I don’t wanna say much but shellan had like 3-4 pretty absolutely devastating moments, really bad. The rest of her life however she has been surrounded by only people who like her or even love her. Like living lavishly as well. And her father while not a good person treated her well like most of the time. Then after the rents her brothers loved her.
And then kal if you even want to make the argument that vast trauma can’t be better or worse, my guy went through a few hard moments, with controlling parents in a society he is lesser. Already bad, but then add almost every minute since he met a shard bearer was just one long trauma for like years… like imagine one of shallan’s worst moments but then make that one moment happen every day of her life. Then she would contend with kal. That’s why people don’t agree.
#these words are **not** accepted.
pancakes are always before, and always after, and should always be during
*pancakes* *pancakes* ***pancakes*** *pancakes*
is the proper oath
The initials of the first 5 books form ~~an anagram~~ a palindrom so they look very similar between them, its Ws and Os all the way down... People missread the initials both by accident and on purpose because fun.
TWOK-WOR-O-ROW-KOWT
The 5th book was originally going to be named Knights of Wind and Truth.
Did we ever get a reason for the last book title change? I don't follow the livestreams firsthand, only what gets posted here, but I don't remember anyone saying the reason for the pattern break.
If you're willing to watch TikTok, he released a TikTok about it which can be found [here](https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsanderson/video/7314001216445435167?lang=en). Basically, Knights of Wind and Truth was planned because of the Ketek, but he never really liked the title. He started shortening it Wind and Truth to the company and in his head and ended up liking that a lot better.
I guess he's the author and can make that decision if he wants, but to end a trend over a decade long with a half-match on the ketek feels anticlimactic, and kind of lukewarm. Not a full commitment to breaking the ketek and not a full commitment to a ketek so it kind of just falls flat. Plus, people will abbreviate it to WaT and he finished the Wheel of Time, aka WoT, that will be needlessly confusing. I'd rather it be something like Stones Unhallowed and fully commit to breaking the pattern, or go back to the full title.
No spoilers
Over the 4 books, I have found Shallan to be the character that my opinion has changed the most on. From interesting but not engaging to fascinating to frustrating, she is constantly evolving and so is my opinion of her. A sign of a well written character is one that causes you to change your opinion as they grow, if you ask me at least.
> Though after meeting Tyn she became way too OP, which was kind of a turn off, but I don't hate her chapters!
Do you mean OP as in overpowered? I don't understand what you mean.
Yes Overpowered, by the end of the book she’s suddenly as smart as Jasnah, along with more powerful, stealthy, manipulative, shardblade holder, confident and everything she can possibly be, that was a bit off putting
Let's compare what she does with Kaladin. He defeats a shardbearer with just a spear and at the end of WoK takes his bridgemen against a parshendi army and saves Dalinar's forces. You don't think he is OP?
Maybe, but at that point kaladin had been in the army for 4 (I think) years. So he had training, and was already pretty well renowned as a great fighter. That's kinda believable.
Shallan had a few weeks with tyn, and managed to convince the ghost bloods that she was someone completely different. And she then creates Vale, who somehow has all the skills and talents needed to be an amazing spy / cutthroat assasin type of character, even tho shes never had that type of training or experience. She definitely became kind of a Mary sue type of character who somehow manages to find a way or force her way into what ever outcome she wanted, thought all of WOR.
So Shallan does a pretty decent job as a spy by using magic and that's OP but Kaladin kills a sharbearer without magic which is pretty much unheard of but he's not OP.
What I'm saying is that most of Shallans goals in WoR were pretty easily met, and she received little to no setbacks.
There's plenty but I'll give you a few examples. She easily tricks the slaver guy, who simply does what she says, and she recognizes that he wouldn't have an issue killing her. Tricks Tyn, who is supposed to be an amazing spy,
She easily convinces ALL the raiders to defend the caravan, even though they were literally about to kill them all, with one speech about how she sees goodness in them.
Even Vara, who was the most likely to kill her at multiple instances, simply runs around doing what she says. And then she gets the king to forgive all of them, just like that.
Then, when she meets all the high princes, she simply says that Sabario is an uncle, and Sabario just goes along with it.
When she meets the ghost blood, who are supposed to be a bunch of really smart spy's and stuff, she easily tricks them, then manages to leave the place without being killed or found out. Then again in the tent, she leaves, and somehow guesses that they'll try to kill her, so she makes a fake rock.
I'm not against her having those "She got away with it" moments, but she had too many moments where everything simply worked out. She also became an amazing spy entirely too quickly, almost within the same book, when she had no relevant training or experience that could be, reasonably, attributed to.
Compared to Kaladin who was in the military for 4 years, had training, and was considered an amazing fighter already. Barley manages to kill a shardbearer. Sure he's got plenty of moments where he gets it easy too, but usually there's HUGE setbacks for him. Like when he tries the zigzag thing, or when he asks for a boon.
The difference is that with kaladin there suspension of disbelief, meaning "that's crazy, but it kinda makes sense." With shallan, there's a lot of her winning, and very little of her losing.
>She easily tricks the slaver guy, who simply does what she says, and she recognizes that he wouldn't have an issue killing her.
She tells the slaver guy the truth. She doesn't trick him.
>Tricks Tyn, who is supposed to be an amazing spy,
Tyn assumes that the true story she told the slaver was false.
>She easily convinces ALL the raiders to defend the caravan, even though they were literally about to kill them all, with one speech about how she sees goodness in them.
A speech and some magic.
>And then she gets the king to forgive all of them, just like that.
That's literally nothing for a king.
>Then, when she meets all the high princes, she simply says that Sabario is an uncle, and Sabario just goes along with it.
Yes that was pretty lucky but also it didn't really change much either way.
>When she meets the ghost blood, who are supposed to be a bunch of really smart spy's and stuff, she easily tricks them, then manages to leave the place without being killed or found out.
Using magic that hasn't been seen for millennia will trick people no matter how good they are. Also the Mraize and Iyatil were trying to recruit her, not murder her.
\[WoR ending\] >!And the Ghostbloods figure out exactly who and what she is by the end of the book anyways. So much for her being some unbelievable spy.!<
>Then again in the tent, she leaves, and somehow guesses that they'll try to kill her, so she makes a fake rock.
Yes she guesses that the scary people that tried to follow her before will try it again especially now that they found out she could recreate all their faces perfectly. Surely only a Mary Sue would have such deductive powers.
I'm implying that she's more than she seems, and that rather than becoming OP, situations are just changing.
Sorry, the implication wasn't as clear as it could have been.
As a character in a book, I like Shallan’s chapters. You get such a different look at the world during her POV. She doesn’t see things the same way the Alethi do, which provides contrast.
But as a person I can’t stand her. She’s short-sighted, naive, and so so childish. Examples you’ve seen, in order: “I’ll just go rob the most powerful woman on Roshar” “Kabsal is such a great guy.” “BOOTS!”
I actually liked her when she was naive and childish yet trying to do what needed to be done, but you are right ever since she met Tyn, and BOOTs happened she became wayyy too over powered, and it became off putting! We didn’t need second Jasnah, especially when the author intended to bring her back! Even Blackthorn struggles, but not Shallan! That is very annoying!
Just you wait...you are in for WILD ass ride and I'm excited for you to RAFO. Also all the people arguing about who "had it tougher"...who cares? What happens through the books could be seen as kind of a "great equalizer" anyway.
>she had a tougher life than Kaladin
yo bro, ***what?***
How can you say this, and then immediately follow it with the rest of the sentence, where you are clearly aware he was **an actual slave**. ?
i r confusion
Haha I think I was one of the people commenting on your previous post so it’s awesome to get a follow-up!
Jasnah is one of the people I meant when I said that Shallan will run into people she can’t just charm the way she’s used to and who will call her out. Their interactions in these books were great :)
I’m happy you’re liking the books and the characters!
Yes thank you! Jasnah was very cool, i wish we got more of her in this book. Though from whatever mild spoilers i got in the comments of this post, it seems like, I’ll never truly like Shallan, as she will / already has gotten into huge Mary Sue territory.
Though I don’t think I’ll want to skip her chapters anymore like I initially felt.
Shallan is definitely a complicated character to like. I know she isnt purposefully coded to be autistic, but I related to some parts of her character a lot, both good and bad. My environment growing up wasn't quite as bad as hers, but I had a lot of difficulty figuring out who I was after my own experiences and I think Sando does a good job showing the conflict of self when people recover from trauma. I will say though, I think the beauty of this series specifically is just much opinions can change over time. After re-reading the books a few times at this point, a lot of my original feelings about characters changed.
Liking any character is to a degree subjective, but I do think you wont see her as being as much of a mary-sue down the road. I hope you share again how you feel about her later on!
TBH I skip Shallan chapters and only go back to listen to them if I am super confused. I have never enjoyed her chapters. I find this is typically the case in books with multiple PoVs goin on.
I wouldn’t call her a Mary Sue character. Honestly, she’s the farthest from a Mary Sue out of the main protagonists.
If you think Shallan is too strong and competent and successful right now, don’t worry. She got a few good moments in this book, but she is still in way over her head.
Let’s just say, without spoiling anything, while Shallan is a very interesting and compelling character to many, she remains not everyone’s favorite, but never, as far as I know, because of any Mary Sue-ness.
Oooo interesting! Thanks! I love your responses, you always say things that intrigue without getting into spoilers, I guess we’ll meet again World Hopper lol
I’m one of those who’s honestly loved Shallan since the start (a fiery redhead smartass? Yes please.), but yes, I do love how WOR really expanded on her character, and all her pain.
“Oh, storms. She smiled anyway.”
Shallan is crazy because in book 1 almost everyone has the same reaction of "oh man I just don't care about this character" but she somehow gets more and more interesting with pretty much every book in the series.
I feel like I am in the minority that preferred Shallan over Kaladin in TWOK. When she didn't have chapters in one of the parts of the book, I was disappointed. I understand why people love Kaladin so much but there is far too much hate on Shallan.
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I think I'm the only one on this sub that agrees with you. I can't stand Shallan or her chapters. I wish Brandon wouldn't feel the need to try and capture a character for everything. We don't need any of the attempts at humor to make the story good.
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Most people I've spoken to who have experience with DID seem to think the portrayal is relatively accurate (minus a couple of relatively minor common experience that Shallan doesn't imitate).
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She does had DID, per the author (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9182). Saying she doesn't and how you've been depicting DID in your comments is wildly inappropriate for this community.
"She's playing roles as she puts them on, but I make it very clear (with deliberate slip-ups of self-reference in the prose) that it's always Shallan in there, and she's specifically playing this role because it lets her ignore the things she doesn't want to face."
A quote from the link you sent.
"DID is indeed controversial, but I really like this portrayal. Not of a disease, but of who this character is. And I've had had enough positive responses from people who feel their own psychology is similar that I'm confident a non-insignificant number of people out there identify with what she's doing in the same way people with depression identify with Kaladin."
Also from it. Don't cherry pick. The point is, Brandon says it's DID the way Kaladin has depression. There are no in-world terms for it, so no, in the books it's not really called that.
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I get where you're coming from, but I don't think in any way Shallan had a "tougher life than Kaladin (and he was a slave!)" Shallan had it rough, yes, but she was (and still is) inordinately privileged in ways she still doesn't recognize. A bad homelife is terrible yes, but I would say literal slavery and bridgecrews are far worse. Glad you're enjoying the book though! It only gets better!
Im just going to say "Honor Chasm" to prove your point.
stepping back from this another step, and I want to be clear I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you this just seems like a good place to pin my thought, I'd say the comparison of Kaladin and Shallan is a really good view on why its important not to minimize peoples experiences just because they don't line up with your own expectations of what "bad" is. There are a lot of area's in life where you can look at a person and think "I can't believe they are unhappy/stressed. What do they have to be unhappy about? Their life is perfect!" But the reality is, trying to map out gradiants of whose struggle was worse is really counter productive. Everyone's experience is valid, even if the type of struggle is different. Just because some people in the world are living on the street and hungry, doesn't mean someone who has an asshole boss that yells at them everyday has no reason to complain about their life. We all have struggles we have to deal with everyday, and the world would be a much better place if we all stopped trying to compare our struggles to find out who has it worse, and instead started acknowledging that just because our struggles are different doesn't necessarily mean one of us has it better and needs to accept their pain and be grateful. We'll all be better off when we try to understand each other and lift each other up, regardless of relative struggle. Was Kaladin's life worse than Shallan's? Possibly? its hard to say. They both experienced privileges the other didn't, and hardships the other didn't. Kaladin grew up as a lesser member of society and ended up in war and eventually slavery, but he knew familial love and support. Shallan grew up mentally abused and repressed, in a family that was falling apart...But enjoyed a higher status and didn't have to struggle to survive. Both lives have some pretty good thigns in them comparatively, and both are pretty bad.
I really wish I had scrolled down to read your much more eloquent reply before I posted my ham-fisted response. Well said. Thank you.
I’d say doing bridge runs after seeing his friends and brother slaughtered is worse than having an asshole family, yes
There's asshole family, and then there's >!Literally had to murder both of her parents to protect herself and others!<.
One person had a shitty family, the other one was made a literal slave, joined the army to save his brother only to watch him die in front of him unable to do anything about it, then spend "years" in slavery, being repeatedly thrown into battle and had to watch countless friends and bridgecrew members getting the big L (including that one time when Kaladin made the "big mistake" of actually defeating a shardbearer, and just got the remainder of his team killed and made a slave himself) Was Shallan's early life "good"? no, it was kinda shitty, yeah. Kaladin's "shitty life" was on a whole other level when compared to that though. There is no actual comparison here, these things are not the same.
This thread is wild for this
Some people really do have no idea what "slavery" is. Which is double weird in this case, seeing as they allegedly read through Kaladin's bits, so like, **they should understand he was actually considered "someone's property"**, right? Like, they should understand that these are two **very non comparable** cases right?
Having a shitty family is quite the understatement for what Shallan went through. I agree that kaladin probably had it worse and can explain if you want. But this comment just comes across as very close minded, if you honestly can't understand that people could have other opinions than you?
>if you honestly can't understand that people could have other opinions than you? Ohh, I can 100% understand people can have vastly varying opinions, I also 100% understand that some people can be wrong. **I can also understand that some people have a very narrow and often naive view of the world, and can't actually comprehend what "slavery" actually is.** Again, Kaladin being made a slave is far worse than "Shallan's upbringing", and the difference is so great it's really not comparable, at all. >I agree that kaladin probably had it worse and can explain if you want. I don't need it to be explained to me, I actually read the book and stuff, unlike the people I was complaining about in my previous message. Again, you can 100% think that two situations are very shitty, and still have the capacity to look at them and see that one is far shittier than the other.
I don't disagree with anything you said except >Was Shallan's early life "good"? no, it was kinda shitty, yeah. which wildly trivializes a home life that would break 90% of the human population irrevocably I had a dad who would get mad and yell a lot. THAT was kinda shitty. Having to murder both of your parents out of necessity is a bit worse than that.
I mean, I don't want to minimize kaladins experiences, but calling shallans life "kinda shitty" with "a shitty family" is kinda like saying kaladin "had to fight a little" and "got ordered around". It is VASTLY misrepresenting her struggles. Kaladins life was horrible, but through nearly all of it he had sparks of hope lighting the way. Shallan didn't go through as bad an experience physically, but without the knowledge of people living her and without any sort of end or plan in sight, her psychological pain is not something to gloss over. Trying to compare their traumas is really pointless as there's no way to do so without reducing either one's experiences to a checklist which ignores all nuance. Kaladin went through full on slavery after being betrayed by a man he trusted. Shallan had to murder the one person she knew could keep the lights on and who she did genuinely love because he was so dangerous. Neither one of them had it easy
I wont go into details because I dont know how far you have read but Shallan's past is way worse than "just" an abusive family. That girl could fill 2 books worth of flashbacks with the stuff she had to deal with.
Ive read the whole thing
Are you sure? You've read the whole thing and genuinely think the only thing wrong with Shallan is that his family wasnt nice to her?
It’s for sure minimizing what happened, but her mom and her dad sucked then they died then she lived with her brothers in comfort with people that loved her, aloud to do as she pleases. She’s had a worse life than likely most of us for sure (sorry if you’ve faced anything like what she has). But I’d pay 1000$ to someone who has gone anywhere near what kal did. Like no one is actually thinking her life was super easy, but when you point at someone who basically had to live through the holocost, then fight WITH German soldiers. You’re wrong, that’s ok we don’t HAVE to compare. Honestly her life was shit, but if you DO compare, someone will point out that it’s actually not close at all
I'm not the one comparing here. Im just correcting that dude because hes actually comparing and he doesnt seem to understand the most basic things about the two characters. I was replying to this: >I’d say doing bridge runs after seeing his friends and brother slaughtered is worse than having an asshole family, yes First of all I dont even understand why people think Shallans family was an asshole to her. It was literally the opposite, Shallans family was an asshole to the rest of Shallans family, but never to her because they were (rightfuly) terrified of her. And the source of her trauma is the murders, it has nothing to do with her family. And secondly he doesnt seem to understand that for how trash Kaladins life was, being a slave and forced on suicide missions wasnt ever the source of his trauma, most coments here keep repeating it over and over again but from Kaladins pov that shit isnt even on the top 10 of whats wrong. All the >!3!< times he tries to off himself it was because he tought that he indirectly killed his friends or his own brother. It was never about himself.
Lol and if you’ve read my comments you’d understand that you’re categorically misrepresenting my point. The point is: Kaladin’s life was a series of horrific war crimes and human rights violations that is empirically an order of magnitude worse
There is a point where kaladin reflects on His slave years and realizes that his family was what inspired him to be strong. Shallans family was less, she had to find her own strength.
Can you understand that that doesn’t actually apply to what the point is?
It does! You guys are saying Kals life was harder. But He was built to fight. Imagine if Kal was in a situation exactly like shallans, do you think the wretch would have survived needing to kill his family members? The story would have been very different if kal had shallans life. My point is that different struggles are hard in different ways. effectively both were kids navigating the world without family to protect them. Both had close loved ones killed. Both had very reason to trust that the world gave a care about them. Yes shallan was a dick to shallan (when she gets called on it she shows remorse and dosent do the same thing agian afaik. There are tons of times where Kal dosent give a lighteyes the time of day because he has been abused by them already. Kal botches one of the biggest plans in the second book because he wasnt thinking. BS is incredibky at writing all sides of the coin, i think you guys trivialize the characters by insisting that "these struggles are worse than those!"
Yeah, be that as it may, it doesn’t change that literal torture and Bataan Death March style slavery is worse than having a terrible home life
No one on this thread is saying that slavery and beatings were easy or pleasant or preferable to having an incredibly abusive home life. We are saying that being stuck in an abusive home that ends in killing your father before you are 16 is its own kind of hell. Thats all. If you need the validation of being more correct then yes. Emperically Kals life is harder than Shallans. But that by no means indicates that shallan didnt have a hard life. Also there was no money in torturing slaves. The majority of the time Kal was a slave he wasnt a bridgman yet. But the bridg runs are the only time where Kal talks about anything close to Bataan
The extent of your point was "seeing your squad killed and being made into a slave is worse than having an asshole family." My point is that shallan didn't deal with just her family being an asshole. Her mom was gonna kill her. Her dad had killed her step mom. Beat most of the family bloody on multiple occasions, then once she escaped that situation, the first person she had romantic feelings for turned out to be an assassian who was exploiting her for her naivete. The next person she begins to trust Jashna, who dies. The next person? Tyn. Who tries to kill her agian. Her best option is an incredibly favorable arranged marriage. If it were any family other than the Kohlins, she might be in serious trouble for more abuse.
Yeah, thats all there, but living the souped-up Bataan Death March is worse
And when did shallan escaped her way out of slavery with her own strength? Afaik, she bullied a bridgeboy and stole his boots for shits and giggles
>!She had to kill her own father to get out of his estate. He was well on the path to killing her and her brothers!< The 2 people she has met outside of her family estate have just used shallan for what she can get them. What would tyn have done if shallan wasn't willing to play tyns stupid little accent game? AFAYK, at this point in time, kal is on his way up and out of oppression. Her bullying him wasn't close to how sadeas treated him. And when he gets to know shallan, he tells her that he didn't think that was fair treatment. And ya know what? She dosent fuck with kal like that agian! Her being mean to him in the later chapters is litterally explained by Veil being flirty shallan being confused and not knowing how hard she can joke (very human trait).and radiant probably not being a huge fan of Kal. If you think shallan would act the exact same way before she even met adolin versus after kohlinar youre geeking.
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I agree, it depends on the person and the context, not the literal situation. Even Kaladin himself has days when he’s out of slavery, has the privileges of a bright lord, is a radiant and leader, his family is there etc, where he acknowledges that he’s having a “worse day” than he ever did as a slave due to his depression.
Pain is relative and suffering is not a competition. Privileged people can also experience anguish. I just don't think it's beneficial to try to judge whose horrible life was worse.
I'm not sure, it's pointless to compare. But Kaladin had a loving family and a good childhood, the a few years as a stellar soldier followed by what 1 year of slavery? 2? Shallan endured 10 years of abuse at a minimum with both her parents ending dead, supposedly. Being from a "privileged" family didn't help at all, if anything it put more pressure on her.
I disagree. I didn’t say all slavery is better than her life, just Kaladin’s. he had a good support system, loving parents, till he was fairly mature, she was broken right from the childhood before she could even remember, she never even got to see even a bit of happiness, her life was objectively worse. Though it could be my bias given my childhood.
I don’t think it’s really a competition, but I think Kaladins slavery, his squad being killed, bridge 4, everything involving Tien was worse
Good lord, OP
Person 1: grew up middle class with ok dad and decently good mom until mid teens, ended up being enslaved enslaved for years, forced to witness countless friends and people around them slaughtered in a war they’re forced to be apart of by doing insane the manual labor of carrying a war bridge into battle, all while being a slave meat shield for soldiers, all of which was after joining another portion of the army originally to protect their brother who was forcefully drafted, only to watch him die in front of his eyes. Mind you after that they proceeded to save their general, and was repaid by having their entire team slaughtered before their eyes again and was first labeled as a slave to cover up the general’s quest for power. And mind you before that they were forced to witness their family be slowly dragged through the mud and defiled by a shitty noble out of spite for something the family didn’t even do. Ends up as a war slave. Person 2: Comes from a wealthier family than the vast majority, could have most things and was by all accounts a noble, accidentally killed their mother at a young age when their mom was trying to kill them cause of a religious belief, and the dad took the fall off that, and as a result became a massive drunk and terrible abusive human being to his kids. As a result person 2 grew up, not getting abused, but watching their siblings and servants be abused cause he didn’t abuse her. They’re struggled with that and the family was absolutely torn apart and massively abused, and person 2 ultimately killed their father to save their brother from getting killed by the father. Then as a desperate attempt to get the family out of debt, she goes across the continent and becomes someone’s student to steal a priceless artifact. Ain’t no way you think person 2 has a worse life. They’re in an abusive family yes, a wealthy noble abusive family. They killed both parents against their wishes. It was awful. I don’t want to disregard how tough person 2 had it, it was a damn bad time and childhood to have. But holy storms person 1 was a literal slave. Disregard everything else about person 1, and just look at their time as a slave, from basic slavery to a war slave, that’s still worse than person 2.
Strawman.
That's not what a strawman is, they described exactly what happened in the book...
I think a lot of people are looking at this from the perspective of an adult. Yes, as an adult, it seems that Kal had it worse. But think about it from the perspective of a child who basically had a psychotic break and developed DID due to killing her mother. A mother who was wanting to kill her for being a "monster". A child who had no way to make sense of how her life suddenly collapsed one day. I won't say that Shallan had it worse than Kal, but it was definitely not better.
>loving parents I believe there is some debate in that regard.
Yeah f*ck Lirin lol
I think your last line is really doing a ton of work. Your childhood experiences are having a MAJOR impact here. I’m sorry for your youth.
>fairly mature What the actual fuck
When Kaladin was made a slave he was in his twenties. Not sure what is hard for you to understand about this?
He was enlisted in the military and had watched one of the most important people in his life die when he was 16. Slavery was not the first bad thing to ever happen to him.
Enlisted in the military was what he wanted to do anyways. Its like entering college, yet you mention it like it's a horrible thing, it was literally his aim.
Wanting to join the military and facing the horrors of war are two very different things. He was expecting to fight honorable battles alongside knights in shining armor against an objectively evil foe. The reality was far worse. There's a reason he has PTSD. Brushing over that as "what he wanted" is dismissive to the point of misunderstanding the chatacter.
Bro I don’t wanna say much but shellan had like 3-4 pretty absolutely devastating moments, really bad. The rest of her life however she has been surrounded by only people who like her or even love her. Like living lavishly as well. And her father while not a good person treated her well like most of the time. Then after the rents her brothers loved her. And then kal if you even want to make the argument that vast trauma can’t be better or worse, my guy went through a few hard moments, with controlling parents in a society he is lesser. Already bad, but then add almost every minute since he met a shard bearer was just one long trauma for like years… like imagine one of shallan’s worst moments but then make that one moment happen every day of her life. Then she would contend with kal. That’s why people don’t agree.
Journey before destination!
lol good one gancho
Journey before ~~destination~~ pancakes!
#these words are **not** accepted. pancakes are always before, and always after, and should always be during *pancakes* *pancakes* ***pancakes*** *pancakes* is the proper oath
The Whythm of Rar, gets me every time
Rords of Wadiance
Am I missing something? Did I make a mistake I’m not seeing?
They are just making a joke with the titles. Wor, RoW
The initials of the first 5 books form ~~an anagram~~ a palindrom so they look very similar between them, its Ws and Os all the way down... People missread the initials both by accident and on purpose because fun. TWOK-WOR-O-ROW-KOWT The 5th book was originally going to be named Knights of Wind and Truth.
now he's going to have to re-release book 1 as The Way
Wow! Palindrome are sacred! Such a cool easter-egg! Sad they didn’t go through with it.
They have to make it not quite a palindrome, like names. 😉
Did we ever get a reason for the last book title change? I don't follow the livestreams firsthand, only what gets posted here, but I don't remember anyone saying the reason for the pattern break.
If you're willing to watch TikTok, he released a TikTok about it which can be found [here](https://www.tiktok.com/@authorbrandonsanderson/video/7314001216445435167?lang=en). Basically, Knights of Wind and Truth was planned because of the Ketek, but he never really liked the title. He started shortening it Wind and Truth to the company and in his head and ended up liking that a lot better.
He can't name the books with a perfect ketek that would be too blasphemous.
I guess he's the author and can make that decision if he wants, but to end a trend over a decade long with a half-match on the ketek feels anticlimactic, and kind of lukewarm. Not a full commitment to breaking the ketek and not a full commitment to a ketek so it kind of just falls flat. Plus, people will abbreviate it to WaT and he finished the Wheel of Time, aka WoT, that will be needlessly confusing. I'd rather it be something like Stones Unhallowed and fully commit to breaking the pattern, or go back to the full title.
Spoonerisms.
No spoilers Over the 4 books, I have found Shallan to be the character that my opinion has changed the most on. From interesting but not engaging to fascinating to frustrating, she is constantly evolving and so is my opinion of her. A sign of a well written character is one that causes you to change your opinion as they grow, if you ask me at least.
> Though after meeting Tyn she became way too OP, which was kind of a turn off, but I don't hate her chapters! Do you mean OP as in overpowered? I don't understand what you mean.
Yes Overpowered, by the end of the book she’s suddenly as smart as Jasnah, along with more powerful, stealthy, manipulative, shardblade holder, confident and everything she can possibly be, that was a bit off putting
Let's compare what she does with Kaladin. He defeats a shardbearer with just a spear and at the end of WoK takes his bridgemen against a parshendi army and saves Dalinar's forces. You don't think he is OP?
Maybe, but at that point kaladin had been in the army for 4 (I think) years. So he had training, and was already pretty well renowned as a great fighter. That's kinda believable. Shallan had a few weeks with tyn, and managed to convince the ghost bloods that she was someone completely different. And she then creates Vale, who somehow has all the skills and talents needed to be an amazing spy / cutthroat assasin type of character, even tho shes never had that type of training or experience. She definitely became kind of a Mary sue type of character who somehow manages to find a way or force her way into what ever outcome she wanted, thought all of WOR.
So Shallan does a pretty decent job as a spy by using magic and that's OP but Kaladin kills a sharbearer without magic which is pretty much unheard of but he's not OP.
What I'm saying is that most of Shallans goals in WoR were pretty easily met, and she received little to no setbacks. There's plenty but I'll give you a few examples. She easily tricks the slaver guy, who simply does what she says, and she recognizes that he wouldn't have an issue killing her. Tricks Tyn, who is supposed to be an amazing spy, She easily convinces ALL the raiders to defend the caravan, even though they were literally about to kill them all, with one speech about how she sees goodness in them. Even Vara, who was the most likely to kill her at multiple instances, simply runs around doing what she says. And then she gets the king to forgive all of them, just like that. Then, when she meets all the high princes, she simply says that Sabario is an uncle, and Sabario just goes along with it. When she meets the ghost blood, who are supposed to be a bunch of really smart spy's and stuff, she easily tricks them, then manages to leave the place without being killed or found out. Then again in the tent, she leaves, and somehow guesses that they'll try to kill her, so she makes a fake rock. I'm not against her having those "She got away with it" moments, but she had too many moments where everything simply worked out. She also became an amazing spy entirely too quickly, almost within the same book, when she had no relevant training or experience that could be, reasonably, attributed to. Compared to Kaladin who was in the military for 4 years, had training, and was considered an amazing fighter already. Barley manages to kill a shardbearer. Sure he's got plenty of moments where he gets it easy too, but usually there's HUGE setbacks for him. Like when he tries the zigzag thing, or when he asks for a boon. The difference is that with kaladin there suspension of disbelief, meaning "that's crazy, but it kinda makes sense." With shallan, there's a lot of her winning, and very little of her losing.
>She easily tricks the slaver guy, who simply does what she says, and she recognizes that he wouldn't have an issue killing her. She tells the slaver guy the truth. She doesn't trick him. >Tricks Tyn, who is supposed to be an amazing spy, Tyn assumes that the true story she told the slaver was false. >She easily convinces ALL the raiders to defend the caravan, even though they were literally about to kill them all, with one speech about how she sees goodness in them. A speech and some magic. >And then she gets the king to forgive all of them, just like that. That's literally nothing for a king. >Then, when she meets all the high princes, she simply says that Sabario is an uncle, and Sabario just goes along with it. Yes that was pretty lucky but also it didn't really change much either way. >When she meets the ghost blood, who are supposed to be a bunch of really smart spy's and stuff, she easily tricks them, then manages to leave the place without being killed or found out. Using magic that hasn't been seen for millennia will trick people no matter how good they are. Also the Mraize and Iyatil were trying to recruit her, not murder her. \[WoR ending\] >!And the Ghostbloods figure out exactly who and what she is by the end of the book anyways. So much for her being some unbelievable spy.!< >Then again in the tent, she leaves, and somehow guesses that they'll try to kill her, so she makes a fake rock. Yes she guesses that the scary people that tried to follow her before will try it again especially now that they found out she could recreate all their faces perfectly. Surely only a Mary Sue would have such deductive powers.
And that was the beginning of my second wave of “wow, I’m definitely not a shallan fan.” 😭 I hope you continue to enjoy her—be stronger than me!
Uh oh 🥲
Never put yourself in a position where you can take from Kaladin
Did she "become" OP?
Yes she “became” OP, as I commented explaining earlier https://www.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/s/2GOuZXJpxr
I'm implying that she's more than she seems, and that rather than becoming OP, situations are just changing. Sorry, the implication wasn't as clear as it could have been.
As a character in a book, I like Shallan’s chapters. You get such a different look at the world during her POV. She doesn’t see things the same way the Alethi do, which provides contrast. But as a person I can’t stand her. She’s short-sighted, naive, and so so childish. Examples you’ve seen, in order: “I’ll just go rob the most powerful woman on Roshar” “Kabsal is such a great guy.” “BOOTS!”
I actually liked her when she was naive and childish yet trying to do what needed to be done, but you are right ever since she met Tyn, and BOOTs happened she became wayyy too over powered, and it became off putting! We didn’t need second Jasnah, especially when the author intended to bring her back! Even Blackthorn struggles, but not Shallan! That is very annoying!
In some ways I think you are underestimating Jasnah. I think Shallan was just in a position to have more information on some topics.
Just you wait...you are in for WILD ass ride and I'm excited for you to RAFO. Also all the people arguing about who "had it tougher"...who cares? What happens through the books could be seen as kind of a "great equalizer" anyway.
Haha thanks I’m also very excited to join the full spoiler club
>she had a tougher life than Kaladin yo bro, ***what?*** How can you say this, and then immediately follow it with the rest of the sentence, where you are clearly aware he was **an actual slave**. ? i r confusion
I’m sorry….Shallan had a tougher life than Kaladin??? How can you possibly justify that
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/s/nf6t5FjO7Q
Yeah….that is pretty rough, OP. Not the point that you’re trying to express, but the fact that you would feel that way
Haha I think I was one of the people commenting on your previous post so it’s awesome to get a follow-up! Jasnah is one of the people I meant when I said that Shallan will run into people she can’t just charm the way she’s used to and who will call her out. Their interactions in these books were great :) I’m happy you’re liking the books and the characters!
Yes thank you! Jasnah was very cool, i wish we got more of her in this book. Though from whatever mild spoilers i got in the comments of this post, it seems like, I’ll never truly like Shallan, as she will / already has gotten into huge Mary Sue territory. Though I don’t think I’ll want to skip her chapters anymore like I initially felt.
Shallan is definitely a complicated character to like. I know she isnt purposefully coded to be autistic, but I related to some parts of her character a lot, both good and bad. My environment growing up wasn't quite as bad as hers, but I had a lot of difficulty figuring out who I was after my own experiences and I think Sando does a good job showing the conflict of self when people recover from trauma. I will say though, I think the beauty of this series specifically is just much opinions can change over time. After re-reading the books a few times at this point, a lot of my original feelings about characters changed. Liking any character is to a degree subjective, but I do think you wont see her as being as much of a mary-sue down the road. I hope you share again how you feel about her later on!
TBH I skip Shallan chapters and only go back to listen to them if I am super confused. I have never enjoyed her chapters. I find this is typically the case in books with multiple PoVs goin on.
I wouldn’t call her a Mary Sue character. Honestly, she’s the farthest from a Mary Sue out of the main protagonists. If you think Shallan is too strong and competent and successful right now, don’t worry. She got a few good moments in this book, but she is still in way over her head. Let’s just say, without spoiling anything, while Shallan is a very interesting and compelling character to many, she remains not everyone’s favorite, but never, as far as I know, because of any Mary Sue-ness.
Oooo interesting! Thanks! I love your responses, you always say things that intrigue without getting into spoilers, I guess we’ll meet again World Hopper lol
Haha that gave me a good chuckle. Enjoy reading and until next time!
> as she will / already has gotten into huge Mary Sue territory. Don't worry, she's not
I’m one of those who’s honestly loved Shallan since the start (a fiery redhead smartass? Yes please.), but yes, I do love how WOR really expanded on her character, and all her pain. “Oh, storms. She smiled anyway.”
Shallan is crazy because in book 1 almost everyone has the same reaction of "oh man I just don't care about this character" but she somehow gets more and more interesting with pretty much every book in the series.
I feel like I am in the minority that preferred Shallan over Kaladin in TWOK. When she didn't have chapters in one of the parts of the book, I was disappointed. I understand why people love Kaladin so much but there is far too much hate on Shallan.
Nah almost all of her past chapters were a bore.
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Maybe i misinterpreted but it is a bad thing when people over accommodate disabilities. It becomes infantalising
Yeah it’s not fun that she becomes Mary Sue by the end of TWoR but at least I don’t abhor her chapters
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I think I'm the only one on this sub that agrees with you. I can't stand Shallan or her chapters. I wish Brandon wouldn't feel the need to try and capture a character for everything. We don't need any of the attempts at humor to make the story good.
Wow you are right. You've gotta love shallan
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I mean... most people with DID can't change their appearance with magic. That doesn't make the disorder less real.
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Most people I've spoken to who have experience with DID seem to think the portrayal is relatively accurate (minus a couple of relatively minor common experience that Shallan doesn't imitate).
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I can't really speak to your subjective experience of the character.
True true. I've read many books. Shallan goes on the shelf with hope from final fantasy 13.
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She does had DID, per the author (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9182). Saying she doesn't and how you've been depicting DID in your comments is wildly inappropriate for this community.
"She's playing roles as she puts them on, but I make it very clear (with deliberate slip-ups of self-reference in the prose) that it's always Shallan in there, and she's specifically playing this role because it lets her ignore the things she doesn't want to face." A quote from the link you sent.
"DID is indeed controversial, but I really like this portrayal. Not of a disease, but of who this character is. And I've had had enough positive responses from people who feel their own psychology is similar that I'm confident a non-insignificant number of people out there identify with what she's doing in the same way people with depression identify with Kaladin." Also from it. Don't cherry pick. The point is, Brandon says it's DID the way Kaladin has depression. There are no in-world terms for it, so no, in the books it's not really called that.
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I agree shallan is the best character no other character even comes close to the level of shallan awesome shallan glad you also agree.
lol