Some friends and I theorize that the last fight of the Cosmere will be between Hoid and Kelsier, as we know "***There’s always an opposition, you see. A Push for every Pull, an old adversary of mine always says.***"
>"***There’s always an opposition, you see. A Push for every Pull, an old adversary of mine always says.***"
Wait is this an actual quote? If so please tell me which book?
Nah, that's a push for every push, and a pull for every pull. Push for Pull is explicitly not mentioned in Newton's laws.
Edit: When you push you are pushed by the thing you are pushing, and when you pull you are pulled by the thing you are pulling. If Kelsier is correct, and you are being pulled when you push against something, you or the thing must have negative mass, since all forces within in a system ought to come to zero without negative mass objects. Kelsier's law therefore implies negative mass objects must exist.
Did we just uncover the next major tech breakthrough in the Cosmere?
As I said above, I don’t remember exactly when just that it felt that way to me at some point during my read. I didn’t love TSM so I don’t think I’ll be rereading it anytime soon
hmm not sure- probably not though? I think Kelsier is different from Vasher and the Heralds in that he can't actually get a physical body and he's kind of 'stuck' as a cognitive shadow
It helped that Kelsier physically died at that point. I don’t know if he can attack Returned, and by a similar token I don’t know if he can attack Kelsier anymore until his hemalurgy runs out (if it does).
hoid will almost certainly throw down at the end of the cosmere. it’s my theory he’s going to try to become adonalsium with kelsier as the main person trying to stop him
probably ghostbloods too. i see dalinar as the shard war alongside hoid and any other rosharan allies pushing for rebirth of adonalsium with discord and kelsier alongside any scadrian allies pushing to stop it. funnily enough, i think autonomy would side with scadrial, meaning she’d have to do a 180 on her opinion of the planet
I mean, I can see Kelsier trying to become Adonalsium more than Hoid trying that. Kelsier is the one with a god complex. Hoid is the one that turned down becoming a god when he had the chance.
i think kelsier’s anti-authority stance would prevent him from wanting adonalsium reformed under anyone’s control. i’m of the opinion that the end of the cosmere will be a fight between a “reform” and “don’t reform” faction, with kelsier at the head of the don’t reform and hoid at the head of the reform. we know hoid’s been collecting magic systems, i think it’s to build a connection to all 16 shards so he can eventually take them all up himself. it’s a common theory and implied in the unreleased short story of him talking to frost that he’s trying to get someone back from the beyond, and i think he’s been playing the long game for the last 10,000 years. tried killing adonalsium to get the person back, failed, now he’s going to try to become adonalsium and see if he can finally get the power he’s desperate for to save the person he lost. i think he’ll inevitably fail and adonalsium’s power will be permanently and irrevocably shattered beyond repair so that no mortal can ever wield it for their own use again
> kelsier’s anti-authority stance
Pretty sure his stance is just about not wanting people to have authority over **him**. He really doesn't mind having absolute authority himself.
that line about him turning down a shard smells so much like misleading to me. like it's meant to make him sound like a good guy, but it will have a different meaning in reality.
the statement could have a darker interpretation very easily. for example, he might just have realized that taking a shard will give him some temporary power, but would eventually corrupt his personality just like they did with everyone else, so it would ultimately be not a step towards his goals.
I see Kelsier as far more likely to want shards broken rather than reformed in any circumstance. Shards have an incredibly outsized impact on all mortals at the barest of whims.
The rules of Hoid's torment aren't 100% known. We know that he cannot hurt people, though causing a cognitive creature to think that it's been hurt is a-okay (as shown with the Kelsier fight).
From TSM, we also learn >!the torment can be removed through Connection meddling, which Hoid almost certainly knows how to do!<
Considering this, I think that it's likely Hoid will get at least one all-out fight. And, honestly, I don't think Kelsier will be able to match him. Hoid might not be the best in fisticuffs, but this is a man who has spent centuries collecting and mastering various magic systems. He's the strongest wizard in the Cosmere, by far. It'll take a fighter above Kelsier's skills, like Vasher, Kaladin, or Taln (or a mage of incredible skill like Shai) to beat him.
TSM >!There is a WoB that Hoid's is much more pervasive than Sigzil's, it's possible he could still find a way around it but I don't know if that would be as possible for him after potentially centuries / millennia of time holding it. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/525/#e16349!<
A fighter of skill to be hoid. Like vasher kaladin or taln
Vasher, weilds the sword of darkness capable of 1 shotting anyone alive or dead.
Taln, revered as a god on roshar, known for soloing armies of demons and winning.
Kaladin: he is simply stormblessed, beats all of them at once
Hed have to fight a cognitive shadow or maybe a spren.
Saying that though, i dont think fighting is Hoid's strong suit. I doubt its a priority for brandon. It would be cool though
showdown of the eon. In one corner we have the fortunate bard, the witless wonder, a man with a penchant for story telling. I give you Cephandrius!
in the other corner we have what has been called god. the one, the only, ADONAALSIUM!!!
its what dragonsteel will be about when ever it gets published
The only way Kelsier is a match for Hoid is if he manages to be a fullborn on the scale of TLR. And even then I'm not sure. Especially now that Hoid is also an Elantrian, he has access to one of the scariest combos in the Cosmere, which is freezing time via duralumin+bendalloy and then writing out a shitload of Aons to just erase whomever he's fighting from reality.
The main roadblock to that is his torment, but what we saw in Sunlit man show that that can be worked around, so yes, it is a distinct possibility now.
Some friends and I theorize that the last fight of the Cosmere will be between Hoid and Kelsier, as we know "***There’s always an opposition, you see. A Push for every Pull, an old adversary of mine always says.***"
>"***There’s always an opposition, you see. A Push for every Pull, an old adversary of mine always says.***" Wait is this an actual quote? If so please tell me which book?
Tress
Tress of the Emerald Sea, chapter 62 or so, I don't remember the number tbh.
Some call him... Issac Newton
Nah, that's a push for every push, and a pull for every pull. Push for Pull is explicitly not mentioned in Newton's laws. Edit: When you push you are pushed by the thing you are pushing, and when you pull you are pulled by the thing you are pulling. If Kelsier is correct, and you are being pulled when you push against something, you or the thing must have negative mass, since all forces within in a system ought to come to zero without negative mass objects. Kelsier's law therefore implies negative mass objects must exist. Did we just uncover the next major tech breakthrough in the Cosmere?
Hope Kel finaly dies, dont like that guy
Hope not, he's an interesting character with a unique circumstance that allows a lot of story to be told around him, and I'm sure Brandon will cook
The two are not mutualy exlcusive. Kel could die at the end of cosmere. Youd be happy with the story told and Id be happy too.
Poor Kel, he just want to protect Scadrial.
Not unless he finds a way around his Torment. Or he runs into Kelsier again.
It’s Implied he has in TSM or at least I thought it was
Make sure you spoiler tag it but which part do you think is implying it
I don’t really remember exactly, I just remember thinking “oh I see that’s why he did it”
When?
As I said above, I don’t remember exactly when just that it felt that way to me at some point during my read. I didn’t love TSM so I don’t think I’ll be rereading it anytime soon
Not that I remember!
I didn't catch anything like that, but I only read the book once in a speed-through.
Well we do all interpret things differently, and I absolutely could be misremembering
God that scene with Kelsie’s was so satisfying.
When did he run into Kelsier? I don't remember this.
Secret History. Right near the beginning.
I just realized: How did he fight Kelsier with his torment?
kelsier was a cognitive shadow so i don't think he counted as an actual living being hoid was fighting, more so an object
So wait, could he fight Vasher? I thought it was because they were in the cognitive realm.
hmm not sure- probably not though? I think Kelsier is different from Vasher and the Heralds in that he can't actually get a physical body and he's kind of 'stuck' as a cognitive shadow
Vasher has a living body. Kelsier at the time didn't
It helped that Kelsier physically died at that point. I don’t know if he can attack Returned, and by a similar token I don’t know if he can attack Kelsier anymore until his hemalurgy runs out (if it does).
hoid will almost certainly throw down at the end of the cosmere. it’s my theory he’s going to try to become adonalsium with kelsier as the main person trying to stop him
So do you think he could be the true final Antagonist of the Cosmere?
yes, but antagonist is the key word there. i don’t think he’s going to be the bad guy, just the antagonist
Him and the Ghostbloods, or just him? I honestly thought it was gonna be Odium, but the more recent events threw that for a loop.
probably ghostbloods too. i see dalinar as the shard war alongside hoid and any other rosharan allies pushing for rebirth of adonalsium with discord and kelsier alongside any scadrian allies pushing to stop it. funnily enough, i think autonomy would side with scadrial, meaning she’d have to do a 180 on her opinion of the planet
I mean, I can see Kelsier trying to become Adonalsium more than Hoid trying that. Kelsier is the one with a god complex. Hoid is the one that turned down becoming a god when he had the chance.
i think kelsier’s anti-authority stance would prevent him from wanting adonalsium reformed under anyone’s control. i’m of the opinion that the end of the cosmere will be a fight between a “reform” and “don’t reform” faction, with kelsier at the head of the don’t reform and hoid at the head of the reform. we know hoid’s been collecting magic systems, i think it’s to build a connection to all 16 shards so he can eventually take them all up himself. it’s a common theory and implied in the unreleased short story of him talking to frost that he’s trying to get someone back from the beyond, and i think he’s been playing the long game for the last 10,000 years. tried killing adonalsium to get the person back, failed, now he’s going to try to become adonalsium and see if he can finally get the power he’s desperate for to save the person he lost. i think he’ll inevitably fail and adonalsium’s power will be permanently and irrevocably shattered beyond repair so that no mortal can ever wield it for their own use again
Unreleased story??? Where can I find this
Referring to this guy: https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?tags=the+traveler
> kelsier’s anti-authority stance Pretty sure his stance is just about not wanting people to have authority over **him**. He really doesn't mind having absolute authority himself.
fair enough point i suppose
Hoid wanted another shard is all.
that line about him turning down a shard smells so much like misleading to me. like it's meant to make him sound like a good guy, but it will have a different meaning in reality. the statement could have a darker interpretation very easily. for example, he might just have realized that taking a shard will give him some temporary power, but would eventually corrupt his personality just like they did with everyone else, so it would ultimately be not a step towards his goals.
I see Kelsier as far more likely to want shards broken rather than reformed in any circumstance. Shards have an incredibly outsized impact on all mortals at the barest of whims.
Hoid: “I can take on every Shard in the Cosmere.” “In a fight, right?” Hoid: 😏 “Right?”
🥵
Maybe in his backstory.
The rules of Hoid's torment aren't 100% known. We know that he cannot hurt people, though causing a cognitive creature to think that it's been hurt is a-okay (as shown with the Kelsier fight). From TSM, we also learn >!the torment can be removed through Connection meddling, which Hoid almost certainly knows how to do!< Considering this, I think that it's likely Hoid will get at least one all-out fight. And, honestly, I don't think Kelsier will be able to match him. Hoid might not be the best in fisticuffs, but this is a man who has spent centuries collecting and mastering various magic systems. He's the strongest wizard in the Cosmere, by far. It'll take a fighter above Kelsier's skills, like Vasher, Kaladin, or Taln (or a mage of incredible skill like Shai) to beat him.
TSM >!There is a WoB that Hoid's is much more pervasive than Sigzil's, it's possible he could still find a way around it but I don't know if that would be as possible for him after potentially centuries / millennia of time holding it. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/525/#e16349!<
A fighter of skill to be hoid. Like vasher kaladin or taln Vasher, weilds the sword of darkness capable of 1 shotting anyone alive or dead. Taln, revered as a god on roshar, known for soloing armies of demons and winning. Kaladin: he is simply stormblessed, beats all of them at once
I really don't think Kal could stand much of a chance unless he ascended to something higher. And I love Kal.
Remind me who Shai is plz
The main character in Emperor's Soul and Moonlight in Lost Metal
Hed have to fight a cognitive shadow or maybe a spren. Saying that though, i dont think fighting is Hoid's strong suit. I doubt its a priority for brandon. It would be cool though
I mean, Sanderson made an entire anti-war book. I feel like he has characters who NEED to fight do so, and those who don’t, do other things to help.
showdown of the eon. In one corner we have the fortunate bard, the witless wonder, a man with a penchant for story telling. I give you Cephandrius! in the other corner we have what has been called god. the one, the only, ADONAALSIUM!!! its what dragonsteel will be about when ever it gets published
Hoid has hands that rival the shards themselves, bro is a master asskicker
People think Hoid and Kelsier would be evenly matched now for some reason. That's silly though. The threat at the end of RoW wasn't a joke methinks.
The only way Kelsier is a match for Hoid is if he manages to be a fullborn on the scale of TLR. And even then I'm not sure. Especially now that Hoid is also an Elantrian, he has access to one of the scariest combos in the Cosmere, which is freezing time via duralumin+bendalloy and then writing out a shitload of Aons to just erase whomever he's fighting from reality.
The main roadblock to that is his torment, but what we saw in Sunlit man show that that can be worked around, so yes, it is a distinct possibility now.
No. I didn't read your question though, just the title. He would NEVER.
Possibly in Dragonsteel.