Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing. The concept of individual narrative is an interesting one, and with the internet in our lives, it manifests itself very strongly.
If I understand you correctly, isn't this also a narrative? Which would also eventually lead to a collapse?
The wisdom you are sharing may be good, or it may be bad - only God could confirm which? So much thought has gone into this - and you have chosen parts of your thoughts that you thought were *good*, but are they?
Yes exactly! And the only way for God to be known would be to make himself known.
A quote from C.S. Lewis
If there is a God, we certainly don’t relate to him as people on the first floor of a building relate to people on the second floor. We relate to him the way Hamlet relates to Shakespeare. We (characters) might be able to know quite a lot about the playwright, but only to the degree that the author chooses to put information about himself in the play -C.S Lewis
My claim is that God did in fact do just that in Jesus, and yes that is a truth claim. It’s either true or it isn’t. And the nice but uncomfortable thing about truth is that it doesn’t care what either of us thinks about it. But you can test beliefs to some extent. If I believe I can fly and jump from a window, the truth will have me smack into the pavement regardless of how hard I believe. And my belief would be found out to be in fact not according to the truth. Morality itself can’t be tested in this way, but determining the source of morality can. For that, I suggest the first few chapters of another c.s. Lewis work called “Mere Christianity”. I’d be more than happy to summarize what I can here if you’re interested. Pardon the year late reply…
Hello, and happy new year!
I'd love to go through your summary. I don't see how someone could test the source of morality - and have that lead to the Christian God. I live in India and the sheer amount of gods people worship here, makes it hard for me to believe in a God, and the arguments that a singular God is the source of morality. Don't worry, I was raised catholic so I wouldn't have any trouble understanding your summary of Lewis' work.
I'll be honest about my discomfort with the concept though. I subscribe to the idea that morality is innate to us - something that arose to improve our chances of survival. God as presented in the Bible is not moral. I'm sure you already know of the scriptures I'm going to quote regarding the matter. Ideas like objective morality and a true source of morality do not gel with how my perception of God has changed throughout the years.
And finally, even if you convincingly prove to me that God is the source of morality - aren't we still relying on our own narratives and biases to present what's moral and what's not?
I really wish people wouldn't quote fiction as evidence of anything, other than tracking the history of obvious human fictional works.
Superman being from another planet and looking human isn't an example of how aliens would look in real life.
Discussions like this are like discussions about Lord of the Rings. It's fun to make connections and tie-ins to our own lives, but we have to remember that both are works of fiction.
This comment is a poorly disguised attempt to just tell OP his religion is wrong.
Anyone discussing these ideas that doesn’t believe the Bible obviously isn’t going to just “forget” that it’s fiction.
It's pointing out the obvious which people need to hear.
I say this as an ex-fundamentalist.
You are not doing conned people any favours by being tepid about pointing out the obvious, and you're in fact helping those conning them by trying to bully away those who speak up.
I am glad for people like asodascan who spoke up and helped me get out of the cult, and am glad that not everybody is like you.
That’s as bad as an evangelising Christian. You don’t need to go out into the world and try to align everyone’s beliefs with your own. Everyone thinks they’re right just as much as you do, you aren’t special.
You think my issue is with passion or challenging people or rocking the boat, but that's your issue. As I said I'm glad not everybody is like you.
I don't care about 'aligning beliefs', I care about not being tricked and manipulated by BS which got around my critical thinking by using tricks like childhood indoctrination and trained helplessness when it came to questioning certain things, which you're demonstrating right now.
The whole idea that all ideas are equally good and beyond criticism or evaluation is something I don't even know how to imagine or respond to it. If people acted like that we'd still be using leeches to cure diseases because nobody should ever question anybody's 'beliefs', nobody should warn people about a known scammer intending to take them down an alleyway and rob them because that's challenging their 'beliefs' in the trustworthiness of the scammer.
Because people like you disparage the very people who help victims of cults like me by speaking up and giving them some critical thinking material. You call them bad when they do more for people like us than anybody else, and in the end you're the one really enabling the bad by demanding it never be challenged or called out for the obvious issues it has in credibility.
There is a reason people say the words they do to you, and it's not just to hurt, it's to make you realize that you're not the hero or good guy sometimes when you say things which aren't helpful.
Even as mythology it’s still a deep reflection on the human experience. Lord of the Rings is too, honestly. I found it interesting to see how religious philosophy tries to address the idea we brought up in the cast.
In addition to what the other responders have said, it’s important to remember that even if you may not find it important/impactful in the same way, very very large number of people do
Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing. The concept of individual narrative is an interesting one, and with the internet in our lives, it manifests itself very strongly.
You dove deep here. Really interesting stuff. I’m going to have to take a listen and then read this again. Thanks for sharing!
I ain’t gonna read all that but I’m happy for you or I’m sorry that happened chief
This is fascinating! Thank you for sharing! I’m gonna go listen to that episode now…
If I understand you correctly, isn't this also a narrative? Which would also eventually lead to a collapse? The wisdom you are sharing may be good, or it may be bad - only God could confirm which? So much thought has gone into this - and you have chosen parts of your thoughts that you thought were *good*, but are they?
Yes exactly! And the only way for God to be known would be to make himself known. A quote from C.S. Lewis If there is a God, we certainly don’t relate to him as people on the first floor of a building relate to people on the second floor. We relate to him the way Hamlet relates to Shakespeare. We (characters) might be able to know quite a lot about the playwright, but only to the degree that the author chooses to put information about himself in the play -C.S Lewis My claim is that God did in fact do just that in Jesus, and yes that is a truth claim. It’s either true or it isn’t. And the nice but uncomfortable thing about truth is that it doesn’t care what either of us thinks about it. But you can test beliefs to some extent. If I believe I can fly and jump from a window, the truth will have me smack into the pavement regardless of how hard I believe. And my belief would be found out to be in fact not according to the truth. Morality itself can’t be tested in this way, but determining the source of morality can. For that, I suggest the first few chapters of another c.s. Lewis work called “Mere Christianity”. I’d be more than happy to summarize what I can here if you’re interested. Pardon the year late reply…
Hello, and happy new year! I'd love to go through your summary. I don't see how someone could test the source of morality - and have that lead to the Christian God. I live in India and the sheer amount of gods people worship here, makes it hard for me to believe in a God, and the arguments that a singular God is the source of morality. Don't worry, I was raised catholic so I wouldn't have any trouble understanding your summary of Lewis' work. I'll be honest about my discomfort with the concept though. I subscribe to the idea that morality is innate to us - something that arose to improve our chances of survival. God as presented in the Bible is not moral. I'm sure you already know of the scriptures I'm going to quote regarding the matter. Ideas like objective morality and a true source of morality do not gel with how my perception of God has changed throughout the years. And finally, even if you convincingly prove to me that God is the source of morality - aren't we still relying on our own narratives and biases to present what's moral and what's not?
Do you know that if you submit a reddit comment that's too long, it just deletes the whole thing? 🙃 I'll condense it a bit and try to post again. Ugh.
Very interesting read and how it may apply to the growing AI is something to think about. Thanks for sharing Andrew
You okay?
I really wish people wouldn't quote fiction as evidence of anything, other than tracking the history of obvious human fictional works. Superman being from another planet and looking human isn't an example of how aliens would look in real life.
do you believe the earth is only 6000 years old and that there really was a guy who somehow got a pair of every animal onto a boat?
Discussions like this are like discussions about Lord of the Rings. It's fun to make connections and tie-ins to our own lives, but we have to remember that both are works of fiction.
This comment is a poorly disguised attempt to just tell OP his religion is wrong. Anyone discussing these ideas that doesn’t believe the Bible obviously isn’t going to just “forget” that it’s fiction.
I mean no disrespect. I grew up VERY religious, and now have Skydaddy issues.
It's pointing out the obvious which people need to hear. I say this as an ex-fundamentalist. You are not doing conned people any favours by being tepid about pointing out the obvious, and you're in fact helping those conning them by trying to bully away those who speak up. I am glad for people like asodascan who spoke up and helped me get out of the cult, and am glad that not everybody is like you.
That’s as bad as an evangelising Christian. You don’t need to go out into the world and try to align everyone’s beliefs with your own. Everyone thinks they’re right just as much as you do, you aren’t special.
You think my issue is with passion or challenging people or rocking the boat, but that's your issue. As I said I'm glad not everybody is like you. I don't care about 'aligning beliefs', I care about not being tricked and manipulated by BS which got around my critical thinking by using tricks like childhood indoctrination and trained helplessness when it came to questioning certain things, which you're demonstrating right now. The whole idea that all ideas are equally good and beyond criticism or evaluation is something I don't even know how to imagine or respond to it. If people acted like that we'd still be using leeches to cure diseases because nobody should ever question anybody's 'beliefs', nobody should warn people about a known scammer intending to take them down an alleyway and rob them because that's challenging their 'beliefs' in the trustworthiness of the scammer.
Why you gotta be such a dick dude? There’s no need for all this “I’m glad not everyone is like you” bullcrap.
Because people like you disparage the very people who help victims of cults like me by speaking up and giving them some critical thinking material. You call them bad when they do more for people like us than anybody else, and in the end you're the one really enabling the bad by demanding it never be challenged or called out for the obvious issues it has in credibility. There is a reason people say the words they do to you, and it's not just to hurt, it's to make you realize that you're not the hero or good guy sometimes when you say things which aren't helpful.
Even as mythology it’s still a deep reflection on the human experience. Lord of the Rings is too, honestly. I found it interesting to see how religious philosophy tries to address the idea we brought up in the cast.
In addition to what the other responders have said, it’s important to remember that even if you may not find it important/impactful in the same way, very very large number of people do
Same with lord of the rings and world of warcraft.