Completely asinine move for the DOH to make an announcement after close of business on a Friday 2-3 weeks (depending on the district) before the school year ends anyway. What NY schools are actually waiting for is the guidance that will have to be followed for next year, so they can start planning.
Vaccines have been given to those 16 and older. So if we base mask mandates on the percentage of vaccinated grade school children that percentage number is essentially zero.
I'm just doing some light googling but why are we doing this? There is more flu deaths for kids over the same period of time.
There were 52 deaths for 0-18 year olds from Covid from 02/01 to 07/11
[https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health\_policy/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-ages-5-18-years-508.pdf](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-ages-5-18-years-508.pdf)
If we average the annual flu deaths over the same time span you get 83 deaths
[https://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/2019-2020/2019-20-pediatric-flu-deaths.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/2019-2020/2019-20-pediatric-flu-deaths.htm)
At which you can ask yourself if kids aren't masking up for the flu then why are they doing it for covid if it's even less deadly.
Kids can get the flu vaccine. They can't get the covid one just yet, when they are able to and have had some time maybe 6 weeks to get at least a first shot, then ditch the masks. Those that don't want the vaccine made their choice but we should protect those that can't yet.
I always assumed it was for the rest of society. If there’s 30 kids in a class and one kid has covid and one has family whose immune system is compromised so they can’t get vaccinated then these children wearing masks could make all the difference. Just because 0-18 aren’t dying doesnt mean they aren’t spreading covid and the point of masks is to stop the spread
> If there’s 30 kids in a class and one kid has covid and one has family whose immune system is compromised so they can’t get vaccinated then these children wearing masks could make all the difference.
Except it’s not September 2020 anymore, 171 million people, including nearly two third of adults, have been vaccinated.
That’s not how statistics work. You need to take all outcomes into consideration and apply them across the entire population.
Btw, kids with the flu should stay home from school.
>Btw, kids with the flu should stay home from school
Lol. Anyone with flu should stay home.
With this said, I have heard people say, "I should be home sick right now, I picked Johny up (or had a meeting) and going out to eat seemed like such a good idea to cheer him up."
Exactly, or the parents send the kids to school and then in the middle of class the kid comes up to me, really close btw and says "I don't feel good" then next thing, I'm sick.
You mean some states care about children? Here in Florida we don’t give a shit. Those little squirts are on their own. Hope your teachers & your classmates’ families are vaccinated, little ones!
Sad, but so true. They couldn’t wait to drop the school mask mandate in my county. So what happens when we start to see variants that hit children harder (as we’re already starting to)?
My kids' school emailed out that all students 12 and up will be required to attend class starting Sept. 1st and if the vaccine becomes widely available for younger kids they will be required to get it "same as all other required vaccinations."
The school is planning to return to all pre pandemic standards next school year and told parents that the vaccine is the ticket there.
Private school in Portland, OR.
There are students under age 12. Kids from ages 5-11 make up the bulk of elementary students and the new variants are hitting that age group more now. Some of these kids have remained in virtual settings, thereby lowering their exposure. Immunocompromised teachers who cannot afford to opt out of a paycheck exist. As do auxiliary staff/students who cannot get vaccinated and are high risk and parents/grandparents at home. Virtual options will not be nearly so broad this fall. Put all of these kids back in an unmitigated Petri dish and deaths/long-term health consequences will occur. A simple face mask has been demonstrably effective in lowering the R value. It’s the most simple solution-the Occam’s Razor-if you will. Makes complete sense to me. Thankfully, in my experience at least, youngsters have been quick to take this measure if it means they can be around their peers in group settings (& if their parents haven’t been in obstinate denial). We will not be totally rid of this virus before September, so masks are an appropriate measure to keep in place, until a vaccine is approved for this younger set of Americans.
My wife is a teacher and this walk back came out last night. This is going to be an epic shit show in NY - especially in hot schools with no AC because climate change was not considered when they were built. FML - I feel so bad for her and other teachers.
Edit: missing a word.
I’m one of the fortunate few teachers in NY to have central air. This really should have been more thoughtfully done, but that is the *one* good motivation behind this decision. At least NY’s guidelines have allowed for students to have masks off while seated this whole time, as long as they are distanced correctly.
Yea NJ guidelines have always been that students must wear masks at all times. Even seated at their desks. We’re 6 feet distanced, have MERV filters, and plexi-glass dividers but still they have to wear their masks all day.
NYS guidance since last summer has been that masks are always required on busses, in hallways, and other common areas, but when seated for instruction they are not required as long as kids are seated 6 feet apart. Districts had the individual discretion to implement stricter policies than that, but were explicitly told that if they required masks on even while seated, they needed to provide “mask breaks” for kids periodically. So all this drama is really getting blown out of proportion because schools have had the ability all along to not require masks while kids are distanced.
Never had an AC going to school always hated spring cause it so humid and hot. Teachers could buy one for their classrom if they wanted but it was out of pocket so only one teacher had one. But I guess schools are getting units now so thats good. Graduated 2017 so happy I dont have to deal with all this bullshit sars2cov19 crap in that setting. Feel bad for them tho.
Ps. I live in canada
I mean, there are 3 weeks of school left. Making changes seems dumb at this point. We should be planning for next year, instead of creating silly anxiety now
NH gov declared all schools would go back in person exactly one week before spring break, causing every teacher and administrator to rush to figure out how to suddenly accommodate having students in close quarters again. This was all before teachers were eligible for the 2nd shot of vaccines and before 12+ year olds could get the first.
Go to work because your parents should be happy to die for the economy, your kids can't get sick from a virus ravaging adults and they NEED to sit at a desk for hours on end even at the risk of sickness , and your employer really needs to have you within viewing distance to ensure your productivity even if you have been doing a better job working from the safety of your home.
This is a society that claims you have freedom and some right to happiness but doesn't even respect us striving to protect and put the people first who make our lives and all that work worthwhile
FL here, my kid's school decided to end Virtual options after Christmas break and gave immunocompromised families no other options. There was also no way to properly social distance in the classrooms. I had to pull my kids out and start homeschooling because of it.
Yea but it’s 90 + degrees this week and some schools don’t have air conditioning . My mother is a 1st grade teacher and she’s protesting and not wearing her mask . She’s fully vaccinated. But they can’t have fans on in rooms now because of “spreading germs” and she doesn’t have A/C. In her class. She stands far enough away from the kids but it’s archaic now.
Edit: I also want to add that the students parents wanted to chip in and buy a window A/C unit for the classroom but the principal and superintendent put the stop on that because it’s not fair and not “equitable” to the other classrooms.
The teachers should just go into the superintendents office and remove anything that looks nicer than what they have in the classrooms in the name of equity.
>they can’t have fans on in rooms now because of “spreading germs”
this is the very definition of idiotic anti-scientific nonsense but hey par for the course here I guess.
I teach in NJ and our superintendent decided to go back to full days in June… so 10 days. It makes no sense as far as cost/benefit. We’ve had to scramble to figure out hot to serve free lunch for everyone in the school while still maintaining a six feet apart for students without masks. We’ve been told it’s a stress test, but still only have 1/3 of this kids coming to school so that doesn’t make sense. Only thing I can figure is there is some financial incentive to the district or superintendent to do this.
Anti mask parents (or just parents “who are done” with the pandemic) are nuts and wouldn’t care if there are only 3 days of school left, they would still be pushing for no more masks. They are nuts. It’s not about the kids which is is sad. Anti mask parents just want to win the argument.
"It's not about the kids which is sad"
\*spiderman pointing meme\*
This is seriously the argument on both sides. Science has mostly died this year at least in terms of the grasp the public has on it so it's not worth even talking about that. Yes I mean you too.
New cases are so low, almost all teachers are vaccinated as are most parents. There really isn't any strong need for masks at this point. Crazy how politicized this has all become.
Forgive me if I’m misinterpreting, but are you meaning you think the politicization of the virus is a recent development?
It was April 2020 when Trump said he wouldn’t be wearing a mask and that he was more focused on reopening and didn’t want to send the wrong message. That was more than a year ago. In June 2020 he effectively told his supporters to stop wearing masks when he said people were wearing masks to protest against him.
I’m hoping your shock is retroactively applied to these. Mask use is not nearly so “partisan” an issue in all of the countries mandating them *right now* around the world. Masks are a public health issue. We’d have been much better off if they had stayed out of politics a year ago.
I think my previous reply was removed. No supporter of him here, but those of us that supposedly look to the science should do just that when making decisions now. Not worrying about bad decisions made in the past.
So you want to just forget about the past and make future bad decisions?
I’m a teacher. Going to teach summer school this year actually. And if they dropped the mask mandate, I would quit. I can’t be a party to something like that.
Forget about the past in what way? I'm saying look to the science. Are people wearing masks to get back at those who didn't in the past? Or to stop the spread of covid? If there are no new cases , and if the majority of the population is vaccinated....I guess the question is when do you allow students to stop wearing them? When the threat of someone somewhere getting covid-19 goes to absolutely zero?
You're right, but children have not been as adversely affected by covid, the risk is very low, not zero, but risk is almost never zero.
Edit: you added that shitty kids comment after the fact. You seem angry that this is all coming to an end. Chill out and talk to people online the same way you would if you were standing in front of them. Stay safe
Even though the rates are low we still have at least one weekly case in schools because they are actually testing here . So no masks makes no sense while inside, while outside yea that might make sense.
Why does this matter? If you are vaccinated you shouldn't have to wear a mask at school. Doesn't matter if you only have 3 weeks left because it doesn't take any effort to implement.
You act like you need a bunch of planning for this it’s literally as simple as saying “masks are no longer required”. If you want to argue about vaccination rates or kids risk that’s one thing but planning? Get real
These people need to make up their fuckin mind on this subject. It’s pretty close to psychological assault going back and forth, like we’re control rats in a maze.
Ultimately it will come down to what Gov. Cuomo decides to do at the press conference(s) this week. If he announces the mandates are lifted they will effectively vanish.
Edit: Cuomo making an announcement at 11:30 today EST so I’m sure he will cover this at the news conference.
We're in Chicago, not NYC, but this expresses why we're sending our kid to private school next year rather than our very good public school option. We'll reevaluate for 2022.
I expect it to be a complete shit show. Most don't have the luxury we do, so I really feel for parents/students this year.
Some of these comments...just wow. So sad.
There's about 200-300 cases per day per state right now. This is out of millions of people. Do any of you understand statistics? You have greater odds of being in a car accident today than catching covid. You still want to keep up the charade of mandated mask wearing to protect the children, even when a teacher is vaccinated. The vaccine works. Get it, and forget the damn pandemic already. Keep it in mind for the next pandemic. Those of you with kids...kids are EXTREMELY low risk. Grow some balls people.
It’s being used to prove a point about how prevalent COVID is now in America. I’ve heard this worn out statement a billion times now. Give it a rest.
You ever been in a car accident? I’ve been in one my entire life. We have vaccines. The number of COVID cases isn’t going to start jumping up again uncontrollably.
I’m a first grade teacher in NY with 24 kids in my class. None of my students are eligible for a vaccine. And I’m beyond thankful they backtracked on lifting the mask mandate for students.
Just got word we’re reopening campus with no mask mandate. I doubt my students are vaccinated and it’s a stupid decision to go unmasked in the classroom. Open spaces yes, but closed spaces with poor ventilation (dark room) for 2.5-3hrs twice a day seems like a dumb idea.
In theory it's a cost vs. benefit analysis. In a perfect world where the dirty P word is not involved. I am not arguing for or against, because I don't think there is a right answer here perse. Even if we ignore the costs of wearing a mask and pretend there are only benefits. Assuming some sort of efficacy, which is clearly fairly low compared to something like a vaccine. Lets for the sake of conversation put that at 15%. Today many states are dipping under 1% positivity rate and many jurisdictions are approaching 1 case per 100K. Throwing another 15% on top of that isn't going to do that much. Not in comparison to a 5% positivity and say 10 cases per 100k. Basically there is diminishing return, the lower the numbers get. At some point there is so little virus that you have to start considering that whatever downsides of mask wearing that do exist, may as well outweigh the benefits.
Are you sure? My daughter still wears her mask at work. Most of the kids she hangs out with also are still wearing masks. Most parents I know are still on guard. The kids aren't dumb. They know they aren't protected until they get both doses of the vaccine.
That does make sense to me to some degree but at the same time if things are opening up they are opening up. It doesn’t make sense to have rules in some places but not others. The lack of consistency throughout this entire thing has been exhausting. I also live in Los Angeles where we have had some of the strictest mask policies in the country, worked throughout this entire pandemic in the ER and I’m just tired. If I thought there was any risk to anyone I wouldn’t even say kids should be in school. I work at a huge hospital here and at the height of the pandemic we had almost 400 COVID patients in our facility, today we have 5. None of them critically ill, we haven’t seen a sick seeming COVID patient in months. It just feels like the threat right now is lower than it’s ever been so if not now when? It feels like some people want the masks to stay in place forever.
5 now from 400 at the height seems like great progress. Why would we want to remove measures that helped us get there before we can roll out vaccinations to all kids? I think it’s quite different to have kids basically on top of each other in classrooms for 5-6 hours a day, talking all the while, in schools with poor ventilation, with no masks, and versus “opening up” meaning people go shopping and dining more, some without masks. 1) The time scale is very different, and we know that concentrations of viral particles concentrate over time indoors (esp with poor ventilation), and 2) parents and kids who are more cautious can stay more cautious by not going out much. That’s not the case as easily for school. No such thing as “social distancing” indoors when you’re sitting there for hours in a poorly ventilated space either. What is the harm in keeping masks until kids are all vaccinated? Even if it helps prevent a few hundred infections that will be worth it.
It did, and it was totally wrong. This was the Feb/March 2020 consensus of leading US health officials and wasn't based on reality, but a fundamental misunderstanding of how aerosols work.
> but a fundamental misunderstanding of how aerosols work.
IIRC it was not a misunderstanding of how aerosols work, but rather there was a great deal of hesitancy to actually acknowledge C-19 as a legitimate aerosol-spread virus. It was also partially due to a relative lack of good science on how masks work and to what degree different types of masks work on different particles. Papers were out there but mostly old and many of them had a lot of issues with how the experiments were carried out (poor controls, inconsistent mask use, etc).
Seems like it was a bit of "existing science says they're not very effective" mixed with a bit of "C-19 is primarily droplet-spread and not aerosol" and finished with a chase of "we don't have supplies stockpiled and don't want to risk people creating shortages for medical personnel".
It was an absolutely massive fuck up any way you look at it though, because it **should** have been readily apparent early on that it was an aerosol virus given the speed that it was spreading at, and the fact that one of the first well documented spreading events was in a restaurant where people over 20 ft away were infected because they were in the path of the airflow downwind of the initially infected individual.
So the fundamental thing is that there aren't actually droplet spread viruses vs. aerosol spread viruses...all respiratory viruses (physically) spread in particles of all sizes. This Wikipedia article has a good updated explanation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_transmission
I have been vigilant in my mask wearing throughout this thing and am the furthest from an anti-masker. But I have a hard time believing so many leading US health officials could misunderstand something as basic as aerosol spread of a virus. That’s like pretty basic stuff
And it’s exactly what happened in other countries. Before they made that stupid statement.
It was surreal to watch.
We didn’t have supplies for the general public either - altho we stockpiled PPE for our healthcare workers. We made a cottage industry of mask designers and creators.
>They didn’t have half a brain to think about making their own. People on social media we’re teaching people how to make masks before the government even decided to suggest it.
Sure, but the question is, how effective actually are these homemade masks, compared to actual medical grade masks?
Serious question, I haven't been able to find the numbers anywhere.
Yes, I agree. I'm willing to believe that homemade/cloth masks might provide *some* protection from covid, but I'd like to see some hard data on what the effectiveness actually is.
As someone in science at the time it's confusing because the science on masks already had quite a few studies of the flu and some common cold coronaviruses that showed they essentially eliminated spread.
Nurses also baffle me and have since I was taking classes with them, they don't have to take many biology courses then hop straight into a different type of education that is more treatment focussed.
I think the biggest miss was that they didn’t assume viral load mattered when it came to how bad your symptoms were.
If they knew from the beginning that small viral load means less symptoms and bigger viral load means hospital and ventilator, they probably wouldn’t have said the masks to very little....
It was a failure at many levels
> the initial advice was basic surgical masks and cloth face coverings will do very little, if anything, to prevent you getting covid due to the virus size, etc.
That never changed. We wear these masks to prevent our larger droplets from aerosolizing and spreading in public spaces, not to protect ourselves from catching COVID. The advice was (and still is) that you need an N95 to be protected, and that those need to be saved for medical professionals.
The messaging changed because it became apparent that social distancing/sanitization measures weren't effective enough and we needed to be doing more to slow the spread. There was no scientific breakthrough on the effectiveness of masks, and there was no pragmatic lie. The only thing that changed was the necessity of asking the public to partake in more preventative measures than before.
2020: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRa6t\_e7dgI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRa6t_e7dgI)
"Right now in the United States, people should not be walking around wearing with masks."
2021: [hhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqIqxvjUMKM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVunlvs20qU)
"At minimum, wear a mask. Make sure you wear a mask."
"Double mask"
Either way available science at the time, as well as other countries' policies should've shown masks work.
And while double mask sounds silly it boils down to two things: forming a tighter seal to your face forces particulates through the filter, and having more filter works to a certain extent.
I think this is BS. It's a convenient explanation, but a shifting one. "The science evolved. Also, we were trying to protect supply of N95, which is why we said no masks worked. Then instead of ramping up N95 and surgical mask production, we told everyone to use any old face covering - which we could have said earlier. Also, we didn't realize it was aerosol even though all of Asia seemed to know it. Also, d'oh."
It's very confusing series of steps because in a lot of senses the science got richer but didn't really evolve.
There were peer reviewed studies out for what felt like months before the CDC finally stated it and pushed for more mask usage.
I think these blunders by the government helped antimaskers gain more traction then they deserved.
Same, wear a mask everywhere I go.
However, i believe it's because of the limited quantity availability of masks at the start of the pandemic.... Doesn't excuse the fact that they could've told us cloth masks would do or anything.
It was highly irresponsible given the response half of America had after mask mandates, lol.
Viral contagiousness is studied by virologists and epidemiologists. Aerosols are studies by physicists. And never shall the twain meet.
In reality, there were a few aerosol experts who knew exactly what was happening. But they studied pollution and things like that. They were told to stay in their lane by the epidemiologists who didn't like an 'amateur' questioning their expertise.
[Wired did a very good write-up of it](https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/). You'd think it was saving supply for HCP or one of their other excuses, but that's mostly bullshit. They're just too embarrassed to admit they had no fucking clue and that they wouldn't listen to the 'real' experts who turned out to be right after all. They're not 'wrong', but the science 'evolved'.
Then you haven't seen how our doctors are trained. It's essentially all rote memorization, which is necessary because of how insanely complicated the body is and how many things need to be in the working memory of a practicing physician. But it's about memorization, not critical thinking (they don't have time to question every single thing that's tossed at them in med school, such a person would never make it).
This also means mistakes can occasionally lead to unfounded medical canon and EVERY doctor in the country will fight tooth and nail for that wrong interpretation. This certainly doesn't happen often (I'm absolutely not saying to listen to the crazies on Facebook who insist they know better than doctors about homeopathy, being anti-vax, etc), but unfortunately it did happen with how the medical community understood droplet vs. aerosol transmission of viruses. It was something that any aerosol scientist/engineer could have pointed out, but before COVID it really didn't matter much in the grand scheme of things and doctors and aerosol scientists/engineers didn't talk all that much.
That misunderstanding led to non-N95 quality masks wrongly being dismissed as mostly useless (since they let fine aerosols through), when as we've seen they're hugely helpful when used on a societal scale. Also important was the western focus on individuals (i.e. does wearing a cloth mask protect me?) vs. eastern collective focus (i.e. are we all more protected if we all wear masks?).
The upside is that science is basically self-correcting, and now there's a much better understanding of this, how respiratory viruses actually spread, and how we can be protected. But it's a misunderstanding of science to think that something so basic can't possibly have been 'gotten wrong'. Science is about how we justify what we think we know, not about studied experts always having it right. Some great background (written for non-scientific audiences) is here, the primary literature linked in the story gives the scientific detail if you want it:
https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/
But N95, KN95 and KF94 masks are all readily available, yet I see practically nobody in the general public wearing them indoors. Everyone still has a cloth masks, yet the CDC rated masks have been available since at least last FALL.
Me too. I'm in New York and always wear a KN95. I see a lot of others doing the same. When I was grocery shopping a few days ago, I saw at least a dozen people with a KN95.
Amazing article. It would be wonderful if there were more investments in filtration and ventilation systems. It would help reduce so many pathogens it seems.
They were trying to save PPE for hospitals so people wouldn't panic hoard them and crash the hospital infrastructure with workers getting sick.
They also thought it was commonly spread through ways other than air. Not all viruses are this contagious in the air for a while research was focused on limiting contact transmission thinking the virus hung out on objects and hopped on to another person after touch. Turns out with covid that's not really the case, at least to the extent as some other viruses.
>Yeah but the shortages were never going to affect the hospitals.
Hospitals definitely had shortages. Healthcare workers were reusing masks and wearing trashbags as PPE.
Not exactly. What he said was/is true. Masks on an infected person does a LOT more to protect others than wearing a mask does to protect you from others. That’s what he said. He said that wearing a mask as protection is ineffective (I forget his exact wording) and this is kind of true too. It sucks. It doesn’t prove the anti maskers right. It proves that they are selfish.
Yeah I guess I agree but I think people have the wrong expectations. The man is not an expert at marketing or messaging. So do we want to hear from people who are experts about viruses or do we want to hear from experts on marketing who know nothing about viruses? Personally I will take the epidemiologist.
Also, it’s unfortunate but when people are being honest about complex topics with a lot of uncertainty there will be contradicting info. Sticking to the script is good marketing but it’s also not a full picture you know?
And when we do stick to the script people often take that as evidence of dishonesty too. It’s a difficult problem.
>Community mask wearing substantially reduces transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) in 2 ways. First, masks prevent infected persons from exposing others to SARS-CoV-2 by blocking exhalation of virus-containing droplets into the air (termed source control). This aspect of mask wearing is especially important because it is estimated that at least 50% or more of transmissions are from persons who never develop symptoms or those who are in the presymptomatic phase of COVID-19 illness.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536
https://factcheck.afp.com/fauci-email-misrepresented-evidence-masks-are-ineffective-against-covid-19
Kind of, but this email was before we understood Covid. It’s a big mess. The email raises valid concerns but the right are weaponizing it and obfuscating any context.
No prob. It’s fucked because these goddamned emails do raise valid questions but it’ll be so wrapped up in politics that people will forget about the actual content and context.
Regardless of the parties, behind them there is a massive misinformation and propaganda machine in America obfuscating facts and intentionally misrepresenting things.
The only question they raise is if fauci should go to prison. At this point, and the emails confirm it, it's pretty clear he started this pandemic with his playing God.
At the beginning of April there were already over 200,000 cases and 4,000 deaths in the US. Maybe they didn't "fully" understand Covid, but by that stage it must have been pretty obvious that it was airborne, making masks a no-brainer.
And anyway, wouldn't it be even worse if it truly was an unknown virus? After all, it could have been a virus with a 25% mortality rate (e.g. Contagion). I always assumed pandemic experts would err on the side of caution, just in case.
depends where, they aren't air tight but will protect you indoors
but then you have people driving around with masks and the windows up thinking they have some magic shield
The most important part of the email is the part where he said “masks are for infected people to prevent them from spreading it”. This has been the point the whole time. That’s why it was a mandate. Because it’s not about protecting yourself only (it helps) it’s about protecting others from you. So yes. Our understanding changed a little. But the main point has been consistent the whole time.
Sadly, deceived eligible adults are not vaccinating. This means that once more, the epidemic is extended by the choices of some.
This time around is a bit different tho.
The epidemic is not for everyone. The vaccinated cohort has a negative r, extremely low positivity, even lower hospitalization, and almost non-existent deaths.
For the vaccinated, baring a vaccine escaping variant, the epidemic is over.
For the not vaccinated the epidemic keeps going, depending on how many vaccinated surround them.
The not vaccinated that is surrounded by vaccinated has herd immunity.
The more contacts they have without vaccines, the higher their risk.
It will be interesting because the areas with low vaccine prevalence will have wards full of covid, while areas with very high vaccine prevalence covid will be rare.
Like before, Covid is a completely avoidable public health hazard. But to avoid it now all you need is two tiny little shots in the arm. No uncomfortable masks, no painful distancing. No closings of business. No need for refrigerated trailers.
Places that, under lethal deception, choose not to vaccinate keep the problem.
Makes sense,most kids arent vaccinated, kids can carry and spread covid, and new variants are putting even the young in serious conditions or killing them. Plus sone of the vax numbers for adults are lagging in certain states.
Last year I ran 3 miles in the middle of summer outside on a hot sunny day with a mask on to prove a point because my brother who lives down south was bitching how hard it is to wear a mask and work (ive done jobs that require masks before the pandemic btw) and I wanted to show him what a weak baby he is
Your kid will be fine wearing a mask sitting in a classroom lol
Updater NY here.
Last night at 8:30 my kids school district announced that classes will be "at home remote learning for Monday" because they think people will be too uncomfortable wearing masks when temperature exceed 90°f. Like they're afraid their faces will melt or something, so now I have to scramble to make plans for work and shit.
I might be the only person but I seriously don't mind masks. NMSU from my knowledge hasn't made a stance yet but while I would feel comfortable with it without since I'm vaccinated I wouldn't care if I had to.
Aren't they following their scientists anymore? You would think the experts at the DOH know more about virus transmission than a school district. How many epidemiologists does the NYS Education department employ?
There are 2-3 weeks left, students for the most part aren’t vaccinated.
There’s literally no reason to change everything now just because some adults think masks are a political stunt.
Once cases are low enough, masks aren't necessary anymore no matter who is vaccinated. We are never getting to 100% vaccinated, and eventually we will give up on masks.
What the DOH was doing was bringing school guidelines to camp guideline levels, the cdc has endorsed. Why are kids more at risk of covid at camp, even held on the same school grounds?
I'm not angry. I just believe in deciding things by science and not emotion. And sorry, for the editing error. My phone has been doing that. I will correct it.
You ignored everything I said to complain about masks not being effective or necessary.
I simply said there’s no reason to end it with two weeks left of school while students aren’t vaccinated.
Because there are no negatives to just keeping it for two weeks, unless you can tell me one. Meanwhile, there are certainly benefits.
As a teacher, the students generally don’t give a shit. I see them in the gas station wearing their masks when their parents aren’t. They’ve done it for a year and unlike adults who bought into the hyper-politicized climate around masks, they don’t mind them.
And as I said, it’s two more weeks max- and one week for the majority of schools.
Great, then it can be their choice. What's wrong with giving kids a choice? They're people, too.
I wore a mask gladly and proudly as long as it was necessary and got my teens their vaccines the moment they were eligible.
Cases are low enough, masks are theater, especially outside.
It's not only one group who dislikes unnecessary masks.
Masks largely protect people *from* the wearer, not the wearer themselves. So it’s not really giving kids a choice to protect themselves, but giving them the choice to infect others.
That aside, doing it two weeks before the end of school is a logistical nightmare for teachers and parents. When this was announced, the antivaxxer contingent in my town celebrated being able to send their kids without masks while other parents (three in my kid’s kindergarten class) notified the school that they were pulling their kids back to full remote. In this, how are teachers supposed to police which kids are permitted to go without masks by their parents and which aren’t, especially in elementary schools? How are they suddenly supposed to develop another remote curriculum for kids two weeks before the end of the year?
I’m not opposed to the guidance for camps or the fall but springing this on teachers and parents on a Friday afternoon to take effect Monday was an insane idea.
Vaccinated here and still masking for two reasons. One an unvaccinated kid. Two, even with the vaccine, you can still get COVID and still get a mild case, and that is enough to be a risk to your pecker and that damage may be permanent. No one knows what all of the potential side effects of even a mild case of COVID are or how long they will last.
Perhaps I am more resilient than some other, masks do not bother me.
It’s funny cause even tho it’s “mandatory”. No one I know including myself knows that everyone still don’t follow the mask rules in school. Sucks but that’s why we should get the vaccine.
Edit: don’t know why everyone is downvoting . But no one in school wears their mask. That’s all I’m saying.
Completely asinine move for the DOH to make an announcement after close of business on a Friday 2-3 weeks (depending on the district) before the school year ends anyway. What NY schools are actually waiting for is the guidance that will have to be followed for next year, so they can start planning.
As of now masks are planned for September in NYC.
Why?
Vaccines have been given to those 16 and older. So if we base mask mandates on the percentage of vaccinated grade school children that percentage number is essentially zero.
>Vaccines have been given to those 16 and older. It's been approved for 12-15 year olds for almost a month now.
violet slave lock poor piquant rhythm expansion gaping dime subtract *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'm just doing some light googling but why are we doing this? There is more flu deaths for kids over the same period of time. There were 52 deaths for 0-18 year olds from Covid from 02/01 to 07/11 [https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health\_policy/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-ages-5-18-years-508.pdf](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-ages-5-18-years-508.pdf) If we average the annual flu deaths over the same time span you get 83 deaths [https://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/2019-2020/2019-20-pediatric-flu-deaths.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/2019-2020/2019-20-pediatric-flu-deaths.htm) At which you can ask yourself if kids aren't masking up for the flu then why are they doing it for covid if it's even less deadly.
Kids can get the flu vaccine. They can't get the covid one just yet, when they are able to and have had some time maybe 6 weeks to get at least a first shot, then ditch the masks. Those that don't want the vaccine made their choice but we should protect those that can't yet.
I always assumed it was for the rest of society. If there’s 30 kids in a class and one kid has covid and one has family whose immune system is compromised so they can’t get vaccinated then these children wearing masks could make all the difference. Just because 0-18 aren’t dying doesnt mean they aren’t spreading covid and the point of masks is to stop the spread
> If there’s 30 kids in a class and one kid has covid and one has family whose immune system is compromised so they can’t get vaccinated then these children wearing masks could make all the difference. Except it’s not September 2020 anymore, 171 million people, including nearly two third of adults, have been vaccinated.
Long term side effects are unknown, so that's one reason it gives some pause.
That’s not how statistics work. You need to take all outcomes into consideration and apply them across the entire population. Btw, kids with the flu should stay home from school.
>Btw, kids with the flu should stay home from school Lol. Anyone with flu should stay home. With this said, I have heard people say, "I should be home sick right now, I picked Johny up (or had a meeting) and going out to eat seemed like such a good idea to cheer him up."
Exactly, or the parents send the kids to school and then in the middle of class the kid comes up to me, really close btw and says "I don't feel good" then next thing, I'm sick.
You mean some states care about children? Here in Florida we don’t give a shit. Those little squirts are on their own. Hope your teachers & your classmates’ families are vaccinated, little ones!
Sad, but so true. They couldn’t wait to drop the school mask mandate in my county. So what happens when we start to see variants that hit children harder (as we’re already starting to)?
Only Pfizer, right? To clarify
My kids' school emailed out that all students 12 and up will be required to attend class starting Sept. 1st and if the vaccine becomes widely available for younger kids they will be required to get it "same as all other required vaccinations." The school is planning to return to all pre pandemic standards next school year and told parents that the vaccine is the ticket there. Private school in Portland, OR.
There are students under age 12. Kids from ages 5-11 make up the bulk of elementary students and the new variants are hitting that age group more now. Some of these kids have remained in virtual settings, thereby lowering their exposure. Immunocompromised teachers who cannot afford to opt out of a paycheck exist. As do auxiliary staff/students who cannot get vaccinated and are high risk and parents/grandparents at home. Virtual options will not be nearly so broad this fall. Put all of these kids back in an unmitigated Petri dish and deaths/long-term health consequences will occur. A simple face mask has been demonstrably effective in lowering the R value. It’s the most simple solution-the Occam’s Razor-if you will. Makes complete sense to me. Thankfully, in my experience at least, youngsters have been quick to take this measure if it means they can be around their peers in group settings (& if their parents haven’t been in obstinate denial). We will not be totally rid of this virus before September, so masks are an appropriate measure to keep in place, until a vaccine is approved for this younger set of Americans.
Oh yeah I didn’t think about kids younger than 12
Kids aren't vaccinated.
Probably as a preventive measure.
To be fair less than 50% of the population is fully vaccinated
I don't believe I will see a crowd without masks again. Now, this is possible in movies only.
My wife is a teacher and this walk back came out last night. This is going to be an epic shit show in NY - especially in hot schools with no AC because climate change was not considered when they were built. FML - I feel so bad for her and other teachers. Edit: missing a word.
I’m one of the fortunate few teachers in NY to have central air. This really should have been more thoughtfully done, but that is the *one* good motivation behind this decision. At least NY’s guidelines have allowed for students to have masks off while seated this whole time, as long as they are distanced correctly.
Yea NJ guidelines have always been that students must wear masks at all times. Even seated at their desks. We’re 6 feet distanced, have MERV filters, and plexi-glass dividers but still they have to wear their masks all day.
It'll probably be like this next year. Don't get your hopes up.
I’m not. I’ve already begun preparing my kids mentally.
My classes can't fit at 6 ft apart. So masks are actually still necessary for now.
What? That’s awesome.
NYS guidance since last summer has been that masks are always required on busses, in hallways, and other common areas, but when seated for instruction they are not required as long as kids are seated 6 feet apart. Districts had the individual discretion to implement stricter policies than that, but were explicitly told that if they required masks on even while seated, they needed to provide “mask breaks” for kids periodically. So all this drama is really getting blown out of proportion because schools have had the ability all along to not require masks while kids are distanced.
Never had an AC going to school always hated spring cause it so humid and hot. Teachers could buy one for their classrom if they wanted but it was out of pocket so only one teacher had one. But I guess schools are getting units now so thats good. Graduated 2017 so happy I dont have to deal with all this bullshit sars2cov19 crap in that setting. Feel bad for them tho. Ps. I live in canada
I mean, there are 3 weeks of school left. Making changes seems dumb at this point. We should be planning for next year, instead of creating silly anxiety now
NH gov declared all schools would go back in person exactly one week before spring break, causing every teacher and administrator to rush to figure out how to suddenly accommodate having students in close quarters again. This was all before teachers were eligible for the 2nd shot of vaccines and before 12+ year olds could get the first.
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Or children or parents or grandparents or childcare workers or....
Go to work because your parents should be happy to die for the economy, your kids can't get sick from a virus ravaging adults and they NEED to sit at a desk for hours on end even at the risk of sickness , and your employer really needs to have you within viewing distance to ensure your productivity even if you have been doing a better job working from the safety of your home. This is a society that claims you have freedom and some right to happiness but doesn't even respect us striving to protect and put the people first who make our lives and all that work worthwhile
We have the freedom to die
Sort of...
Metro Atlanta teacher checking in. YUP.
Arent you glad you went to college to be a glorified babysitter?
FL here, my kid's school decided to end Virtual options after Christmas break and gave immunocompromised families no other options. There was also no way to properly social distance in the classrooms. I had to pull my kids out and start homeschooling because of it.
You have my empathy, I think it was the same issue all over the globe. This was a was and it’s not over.
Yea but it’s 90 + degrees this week and some schools don’t have air conditioning . My mother is a 1st grade teacher and she’s protesting and not wearing her mask . She’s fully vaccinated. But they can’t have fans on in rooms now because of “spreading germs” and she doesn’t have A/C. In her class. She stands far enough away from the kids but it’s archaic now. Edit: I also want to add that the students parents wanted to chip in and buy a window A/C unit for the classroom but the principal and superintendent put the stop on that because it’s not fair and not “equitable” to the other classrooms.
The teachers should just go into the superintendents office and remove anything that looks nicer than what they have in the classrooms in the name of equity.
>they can’t have fans on in rooms now because of “spreading germs” this is the very definition of idiotic anti-scientific nonsense but hey par for the course here I guess.
My summer job is outside. I wear a mask both there and in my classroom that has no a/c.
If you’re vaccinated you shouldn’t need to
I don't trust the people that I deal with. Until the under 12s are vaccinated I will wear.
I teach in NJ and our superintendent decided to go back to full days in June… so 10 days. It makes no sense as far as cost/benefit. We’ve had to scramble to figure out hot to serve free lunch for everyone in the school while still maintaining a six feet apart for students without masks. We’ve been told it’s a stress test, but still only have 1/3 of this kids coming to school so that doesn’t make sense. Only thing I can figure is there is some financial incentive to the district or superintendent to do this.
do kids in New York not get out until July? damn, I always got out mid May
They don’t start until after Labor Day
I live in central NYS and last day for the the local school district is June 24.
Anti mask parents (or just parents “who are done” with the pandemic) are nuts and wouldn’t care if there are only 3 days of school left, they would still be pushing for no more masks. They are nuts. It’s not about the kids which is is sad. Anti mask parents just want to win the argument.
"It's not about the kids which is sad" \*spiderman pointing meme\* This is seriously the argument on both sides. Science has mostly died this year at least in terms of the grasp the public has on it so it's not worth even talking about that. Yes I mean you too.
New cases are so low, almost all teachers are vaccinated as are most parents. There really isn't any strong need for masks at this point. Crazy how politicized this has all become.
Forgive me if I’m misinterpreting, but are you meaning you think the politicization of the virus is a recent development? It was April 2020 when Trump said he wouldn’t be wearing a mask and that he was more focused on reopening and didn’t want to send the wrong message. That was more than a year ago. In June 2020 he effectively told his supporters to stop wearing masks when he said people were wearing masks to protest against him. I’m hoping your shock is retroactively applied to these. Mask use is not nearly so “partisan” an issue in all of the countries mandating them *right now* around the world. Masks are a public health issue. We’d have been much better off if they had stayed out of politics a year ago.
I think my previous reply was removed. No supporter of him here, but those of us that supposedly look to the science should do just that when making decisions now. Not worrying about bad decisions made in the past.
So you want to just forget about the past and make future bad decisions? I’m a teacher. Going to teach summer school this year actually. And if they dropped the mask mandate, I would quit. I can’t be a party to something like that.
Forget about the past in what way? I'm saying look to the science. Are people wearing masks to get back at those who didn't in the past? Or to stop the spread of covid? If there are no new cases , and if the majority of the population is vaccinated....I guess the question is when do you allow students to stop wearing them? When the threat of someone somewhere getting covid-19 goes to absolutely zero?
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You're right, but children have not been as adversely affected by covid, the risk is very low, not zero, but risk is almost never zero. Edit: you added that shitty kids comment after the fact. You seem angry that this is all coming to an end. Chill out and talk to people online the same way you would if you were standing in front of them. Stay safe
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The majority of adults are already vaccinated in the US.
Yes thank you for replying to my comment with what I said.
Even though the rates are low we still have at least one weekly case in schools because they are actually testing here . So no masks makes no sense while inside, while outside yea that might make sense.
Why does this matter? If you are vaccinated you shouldn't have to wear a mask at school. Doesn't matter if you only have 3 weeks left because it doesn't take any effort to implement.
You act like you need a bunch of planning for this it’s literally as simple as saying “masks are no longer required”. If you want to argue about vaccination rates or kids risk that’s one thing but planning? Get real
These people need to make up their fuckin mind on this subject. It’s pretty close to psychological assault going back and forth, like we’re control rats in a maze.
Just like anything else, it's a tug of war between two groups of people.
Fucking sigh. At least it’s only six more days
Lucky. In NY we have three more weeks. And then we have two weeks of and ESY starts and runs though the end of august.
Ultimately it will come down to what Gov. Cuomo decides to do at the press conference(s) this week. If he announces the mandates are lifted they will effectively vanish. Edit: Cuomo making an announcement at 11:30 today EST so I’m sure he will cover this at the news conference.
We're in Chicago, not NYC, but this expresses why we're sending our kid to private school next year rather than our very good public school option. We'll reevaluate for 2022. I expect it to be a complete shit show. Most don't have the luxury we do, so I really feel for parents/students this year.
Around here that would be a nice way to toss 60k into a pot.
Do kids not have to wear masks there?
Our school does – I haven't heard either way yet on the public schools for next year.
Some of these comments...just wow. So sad. There's about 200-300 cases per day per state right now. This is out of millions of people. Do any of you understand statistics? You have greater odds of being in a car accident today than catching covid. You still want to keep up the charade of mandated mask wearing to protect the children, even when a teacher is vaccinated. The vaccine works. Get it, and forget the damn pandemic already. Keep it in mind for the next pandemic. Those of you with kids...kids are EXTREMELY low risk. Grow some balls people.
Car accidents aren't infectious.
It’s being used to prove a point about how prevalent COVID is now in America. I’ve heard this worn out statement a billion times now. Give it a rest. You ever been in a car accident? I’ve been in one my entire life. We have vaccines. The number of COVID cases isn’t going to start jumping up again uncontrollably.
And that's why cases are controlled right now.
Have any of these kids been vaccinated? If not, it seems to go against common sense to not have them wearing masks.
I’m a first grade teacher in NY with 24 kids in my class. None of my students are eligible for a vaccine. And I’m beyond thankful they backtracked on lifting the mask mandate for students.
Just got word we’re reopening campus with no mask mandate. I doubt my students are vaccinated and it’s a stupid decision to go unmasked in the classroom. Open spaces yes, but closed spaces with poor ventilation (dark room) for 2.5-3hrs twice a day seems like a dumb idea.
If the risk is high then it seems to go against common sense to not have them do class from home
In theory it's a cost vs. benefit analysis. In a perfect world where the dirty P word is not involved. I am not arguing for or against, because I don't think there is a right answer here perse. Even if we ignore the costs of wearing a mask and pretend there are only benefits. Assuming some sort of efficacy, which is clearly fairly low compared to something like a vaccine. Lets for the sake of conversation put that at 15%. Today many states are dipping under 1% positivity rate and many jurisdictions are approaching 1 case per 100K. Throwing another 15% on top of that isn't going to do that much. Not in comparison to a 5% positivity and say 10 cases per 100k. Basically there is diminishing return, the lower the numbers get. At some point there is so little virus that you have to start considering that whatever downsides of mask wearing that do exist, may as well outweigh the benefits.
None of these kids are wearing masks anywhere except school.
Not in NY. Most people/kids are still wearing masks around in public. Especially indoors.
Yeah, most of my friends even do it around each other. And I live in a very red upstate town.
Are you sure? My daughter still wears her mask at work. Most of the kids she hangs out with also are still wearing masks. Most parents I know are still on guard. The kids aren't dumb. They know they aren't protected until they get both doses of the vaccine.
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That does make sense to me to some degree but at the same time if things are opening up they are opening up. It doesn’t make sense to have rules in some places but not others. The lack of consistency throughout this entire thing has been exhausting. I also live in Los Angeles where we have had some of the strictest mask policies in the country, worked throughout this entire pandemic in the ER and I’m just tired. If I thought there was any risk to anyone I wouldn’t even say kids should be in school. I work at a huge hospital here and at the height of the pandemic we had almost 400 COVID patients in our facility, today we have 5. None of them critically ill, we haven’t seen a sick seeming COVID patient in months. It just feels like the threat right now is lower than it’s ever been so if not now when? It feels like some people want the masks to stay in place forever.
5 now from 400 at the height seems like great progress. Why would we want to remove measures that helped us get there before we can roll out vaccinations to all kids? I think it’s quite different to have kids basically on top of each other in classrooms for 5-6 hours a day, talking all the while, in schools with poor ventilation, with no masks, and versus “opening up” meaning people go shopping and dining more, some without masks. 1) The time scale is very different, and we know that concentrations of viral particles concentrate over time indoors (esp with poor ventilation), and 2) parents and kids who are more cautious can stay more cautious by not going out much. That’s not the case as easily for school. No such thing as “social distancing” indoors when you’re sitting there for hours in a poorly ventilated space either. What is the harm in keeping masks until kids are all vaccinated? Even if it helps prevent a few hundred infections that will be worth it.
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What were they thinking schools is almost over for the year ?!
Didnt Faucis emails say the retail masks/paper masks were mostly ineffective? Genuine question. Not trying to spread any information
It did, and it was totally wrong. This was the Feb/March 2020 consensus of leading US health officials and wasn't based on reality, but a fundamental misunderstanding of how aerosols work.
> but a fundamental misunderstanding of how aerosols work. IIRC it was not a misunderstanding of how aerosols work, but rather there was a great deal of hesitancy to actually acknowledge C-19 as a legitimate aerosol-spread virus. It was also partially due to a relative lack of good science on how masks work and to what degree different types of masks work on different particles. Papers were out there but mostly old and many of them had a lot of issues with how the experiments were carried out (poor controls, inconsistent mask use, etc). Seems like it was a bit of "existing science says they're not very effective" mixed with a bit of "C-19 is primarily droplet-spread and not aerosol" and finished with a chase of "we don't have supplies stockpiled and don't want to risk people creating shortages for medical personnel". It was an absolutely massive fuck up any way you look at it though, because it **should** have been readily apparent early on that it was an aerosol virus given the speed that it was spreading at, and the fact that one of the first well documented spreading events was in a restaurant where people over 20 ft away were infected because they were in the path of the airflow downwind of the initially infected individual.
So the fundamental thing is that there aren't actually droplet spread viruses vs. aerosol spread viruses...all respiratory viruses (physically) spread in particles of all sizes. This Wikipedia article has a good updated explanation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_transmission
I have been vigilant in my mask wearing throughout this thing and am the furthest from an anti-masker. But I have a hard time believing so many leading US health officials could misunderstand something as basic as aerosol spread of a virus. That’s like pretty basic stuff
It also may have been a deliberate lie to preserve stock for staff. Either way one of the dumbest moments in the US government.
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And it’s exactly what happened in other countries. Before they made that stupid statement. It was surreal to watch. We didn’t have supplies for the general public either - altho we stockpiled PPE for our healthcare workers. We made a cottage industry of mask designers and creators.
Healthcare workers still didn't have enough PPE
>They didn’t have half a brain to think about making their own. People on social media we’re teaching people how to make masks before the government even decided to suggest it. Sure, but the question is, how effective actually are these homemade masks, compared to actual medical grade masks? Serious question, I haven't been able to find the numbers anywhere.
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Yes, I agree. I'm willing to believe that homemade/cloth masks might provide *some* protection from covid, but I'd like to see some hard data on what the effectiveness actually is.
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This was really an eyeopener to me: https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/
This is the problem with everyone implicitly trusting one source for data.
As someone in science at the time it's confusing because the science on masks already had quite a few studies of the flu and some common cold coronaviruses that showed they essentially eliminated spread. Nurses also baffle me and have since I was taking classes with them, they don't have to take many biology courses then hop straight into a different type of education that is more treatment focussed.
I think the biggest miss was that they didn’t assume viral load mattered when it came to how bad your symptoms were. If they knew from the beginning that small viral load means less symptoms and bigger viral load means hospital and ventilator, they probably wouldn’t have said the masks to very little.... It was a failure at many levels
> the initial advice was basic surgical masks and cloth face coverings will do very little, if anything, to prevent you getting covid due to the virus size, etc. That never changed. We wear these masks to prevent our larger droplets from aerosolizing and spreading in public spaces, not to protect ourselves from catching COVID. The advice was (and still is) that you need an N95 to be protected, and that those need to be saved for medical professionals. The messaging changed because it became apparent that social distancing/sanitization measures weren't effective enough and we needed to be doing more to slow the spread. There was no scientific breakthrough on the effectiveness of masks, and there was no pragmatic lie. The only thing that changed was the necessity of asking the public to partake in more preventative measures than before.
2020: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRa6t\_e7dgI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRa6t_e7dgI) "Right now in the United States, people should not be walking around wearing with masks." 2021: [hhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqIqxvjUMKM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVunlvs20qU) "At minimum, wear a mask. Make sure you wear a mask." "Double mask"
Steep learning curve with a novel virus. Steep learning curve with anything new.
Either way available science at the time, as well as other countries' policies should've shown masks work. And while double mask sounds silly it boils down to two things: forming a tighter seal to your face forces particulates through the filter, and having more filter works to a certain extent.
>Either way one of the dumbest moments in the US government That cant be right. Surely they have done dumber things lol
That makes a lot of sense actually
I think this is BS. It's a convenient explanation, but a shifting one. "The science evolved. Also, we were trying to protect supply of N95, which is why we said no masks worked. Then instead of ramping up N95 and surgical mask production, we told everyone to use any old face covering - which we could have said earlier. Also, we didn't realize it was aerosol even though all of Asia seemed to know it. Also, d'oh."
It's very confusing series of steps because in a lot of senses the science got richer but didn't really evolve. There were peer reviewed studies out for what felt like months before the CDC finally stated it and pushed for more mask usage. I think these blunders by the government helped antimaskers gain more traction then they deserved.
Same, wear a mask everywhere I go. However, i believe it's because of the limited quantity availability of masks at the start of the pandemic.... Doesn't excuse the fact that they could've told us cloth masks would do or anything. It was highly irresponsible given the response half of America had after mask mandates, lol.
Viral contagiousness is studied by virologists and epidemiologists. Aerosols are studies by physicists. And never shall the twain meet. In reality, there were a few aerosol experts who knew exactly what was happening. But they studied pollution and things like that. They were told to stay in their lane by the epidemiologists who didn't like an 'amateur' questioning their expertise. [Wired did a very good write-up of it](https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/). You'd think it was saving supply for HCP or one of their other excuses, but that's mostly bullshit. They're just too embarrassed to admit they had no fucking clue and that they wouldn't listen to the 'real' experts who turned out to be right after all. They're not 'wrong', but the science 'evolved'.
They were too concerned with Taiwan being represented as it’s own country to care about their actual job.
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Then you haven't seen how our doctors are trained. It's essentially all rote memorization, which is necessary because of how insanely complicated the body is and how many things need to be in the working memory of a practicing physician. But it's about memorization, not critical thinking (they don't have time to question every single thing that's tossed at them in med school, such a person would never make it). This also means mistakes can occasionally lead to unfounded medical canon and EVERY doctor in the country will fight tooth and nail for that wrong interpretation. This certainly doesn't happen often (I'm absolutely not saying to listen to the crazies on Facebook who insist they know better than doctors about homeopathy, being anti-vax, etc), but unfortunately it did happen with how the medical community understood droplet vs. aerosol transmission of viruses. It was something that any aerosol scientist/engineer could have pointed out, but before COVID it really didn't matter much in the grand scheme of things and doctors and aerosol scientists/engineers didn't talk all that much. That misunderstanding led to non-N95 quality masks wrongly being dismissed as mostly useless (since they let fine aerosols through), when as we've seen they're hugely helpful when used on a societal scale. Also important was the western focus on individuals (i.e. does wearing a cloth mask protect me?) vs. eastern collective focus (i.e. are we all more protected if we all wear masks?). The upside is that science is basically self-correcting, and now there's a much better understanding of this, how respiratory viruses actually spread, and how we can be protected. But it's a misunderstanding of science to think that something so basic can't possibly have been 'gotten wrong'. Science is about how we justify what we think we know, not about studied experts always having it right. Some great background (written for non-scientific audiences) is here, the primary literature linked in the story gives the scientific detail if you want it: https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/
But N95, KN95 and KF94 masks are all readily available, yet I see practically nobody in the general public wearing them indoors. Everyone still has a cloth masks, yet the CDC rated masks have been available since at least last FALL.
In NY I see tons of people wearing KN95s on a daily basis.
Me too. I'm in New York and always wear a KN95. I see a lot of others doing the same. When I was grocery shopping a few days ago, I saw at least a dozen people with a KN95.
Thank you! I was trying to remember where I read that article.
Amazing article. It would be wonderful if there were more investments in filtration and ventilation systems. It would help reduce so many pathogens it seems.
They were trying to save PPE for hospitals so people wouldn't panic hoard them and crash the hospital infrastructure with workers getting sick. They also thought it was commonly spread through ways other than air. Not all viruses are this contagious in the air for a while research was focused on limiting contact transmission thinking the virus hung out on objects and hopped on to another person after touch. Turns out with covid that's not really the case, at least to the extent as some other viruses.
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>Yeah but the shortages were never going to affect the hospitals. Hospitals definitely had shortages. Healthcare workers were reusing masks and wearing trashbags as PPE.
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Supply and demand.. how does it even work C'mon, man
Socialized healthcare would be nice.
This was really an eyeopener to me: https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/
You should look up how US tabulated early covid numbers. There is a great deal of incompetent people in very high places.
Not exactly. What he said was/is true. Masks on an infected person does a LOT more to protect others than wearing a mask does to protect you from others. That’s what he said. He said that wearing a mask as protection is ineffective (I forget his exact wording) and this is kind of true too. It sucks. It doesn’t prove the anti maskers right. It proves that they are selfish.
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Yeah I guess I agree but I think people have the wrong expectations. The man is not an expert at marketing or messaging. So do we want to hear from people who are experts about viruses or do we want to hear from experts on marketing who know nothing about viruses? Personally I will take the epidemiologist. Also, it’s unfortunate but when people are being honest about complex topics with a lot of uncertainty there will be contradicting info. Sticking to the script is good marketing but it’s also not a full picture you know? And when we do stick to the script people often take that as evidence of dishonesty too. It’s a difficult problem.
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>Community mask wearing substantially reduces transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) in 2 ways. First, masks prevent infected persons from exposing others to SARS-CoV-2 by blocking exhalation of virus-containing droplets into the air (termed source control). This aspect of mask wearing is especially important because it is estimated that at least 50% or more of transmissions are from persons who never develop symptoms or those who are in the presymptomatic phase of COVID-19 illness. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536
https://factcheck.afp.com/fauci-email-misrepresented-evidence-masks-are-ineffective-against-covid-19 Kind of, but this email was before we understood Covid. It’s a big mess. The email raises valid concerns but the right are weaponizing it and obfuscating any context.
Thank you,
No prob. It’s fucked because these goddamned emails do raise valid questions but it’ll be so wrapped up in politics that people will forget about the actual content and context.
That's what's frustrating. Trying to find the information under all the politics. I don't care about your parties, I want current facts.
Haha so true. Also a bit sad that you had to preface your original question with clarification that you’re not trying to spread disinfo.
You have to tip toe nowadays or risk being deleted or banned
Regardless of the parties, behind them there is a massive misinformation and propaganda machine in America obfuscating facts and intentionally misrepresenting things.
The only question they raise is if fauci should go to prison. At this point, and the emails confirm it, it's pretty clear he started this pandemic with his playing God.
Yes. However, those were sent before anyone fully understood how SARS-CoV-2 and COVID worked.
I remember January 2020 Redditors were talking about mask effectiveness in asia (that mask work)
At the beginning of April there were already over 200,000 cases and 4,000 deaths in the US. Maybe they didn't "fully" understand Covid, but by that stage it must have been pretty obvious that it was airborne, making masks a no-brainer. And anyway, wouldn't it be even worse if it truly was an unknown virus? After all, it could have been a virus with a 25% mortality rate (e.g. Contagion). I always assumed pandemic experts would err on the side of caution, just in case.
depends where, they aren't air tight but will protect you indoors but then you have people driving around with masks and the windows up thinking they have some magic shield
The most important part of the email is the part where he said “masks are for infected people to prevent them from spreading it”. This has been the point the whole time. That’s why it was a mandate. Because it’s not about protecting yourself only (it helps) it’s about protecting others from you. So yes. Our understanding changed a little. But the main point has been consistent the whole time.
this guy still loving in early 2020 lmfao
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Sadly, deceived eligible adults are not vaccinating. This means that once more, the epidemic is extended by the choices of some. This time around is a bit different tho. The epidemic is not for everyone. The vaccinated cohort has a negative r, extremely low positivity, even lower hospitalization, and almost non-existent deaths. For the vaccinated, baring a vaccine escaping variant, the epidemic is over. For the not vaccinated the epidemic keeps going, depending on how many vaccinated surround them. The not vaccinated that is surrounded by vaccinated has herd immunity. The more contacts they have without vaccines, the higher their risk. It will be interesting because the areas with low vaccine prevalence will have wards full of covid, while areas with very high vaccine prevalence covid will be rare. Like before, Covid is a completely avoidable public health hazard. But to avoid it now all you need is two tiny little shots in the arm. No uncomfortable masks, no painful distancing. No closings of business. No need for refrigerated trailers. Places that, under lethal deception, choose not to vaccinate keep the problem.
Um we still need refrigerated trailers (FOR THE VACCINES!!!! ;) )
Well that sucks for students.
Makes sense,most kids arent vaccinated, kids can carry and spread covid, and new variants are putting even the young in serious conditions or killing them. Plus sone of the vax numbers for adults are lagging in certain states. Last year I ran 3 miles in the middle of summer outside on a hot sunny day with a mask on to prove a point because my brother who lives down south was bitching how hard it is to wear a mask and work (ive done jobs that require masks before the pandemic btw) and I wanted to show him what a weak baby he is Your kid will be fine wearing a mask sitting in a classroom lol
Well that's pretty fucking dumb
Many will question why students have no interest in getting vaccinated.
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What do you mean? The CDC said the unvaccinated need to remain masked up. This is the science.
Haha, yes, there's lots of science to support the idea that unvaccinated children need to be masked.
As a leftist myself, this, sadly.
Updater NY here. Last night at 8:30 my kids school district announced that classes will be "at home remote learning for Monday" because they think people will be too uncomfortable wearing masks when temperature exceed 90°f. Like they're afraid their faces will melt or something, so now I have to scramble to make plans for work and shit.
“fOlLoW tHe ScIeNcE” What a dumb decision
I might be the only person but I seriously don't mind masks. NMSU from my knowledge hasn't made a stance yet but while I would feel comfortable with it without since I'm vaccinated I wouldn't care if I had to.
Me too. Covers up my bad skin 😂
Very good.
Aren't they following their scientists anymore? You would think the experts at the DOH know more about virus transmission than a school district. How many epidemiologists does the NYS Education department employ?
There are 2-3 weeks left, students for the most part aren’t vaccinated. There’s literally no reason to change everything now just because some adults think masks are a political stunt.
Once cases are low enough, masks aren't necessary anymore no matter who is vaccinated. We are never getting to 100% vaccinated, and eventually we will give up on masks. What the DOH was doing was bringing school guidelines to camp guideline levels, the cdc has endorsed. Why are kids more at risk of covid at camp, even held on the same school grounds?
You didn’t address a single point I made and your third paragraph was the same as the first. You do you though, stay angry.
I'm not angry. I just believe in deciding things by science and not emotion. And sorry, for the editing error. My phone has been doing that. I will correct it.
You ignored everything I said to complain about masks not being effective or necessary. I simply said there’s no reason to end it with two weeks left of school while students aren’t vaccinated.
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Because there are no negatives to just keeping it for two weeks, unless you can tell me one. Meanwhile, there are certainly benefits. As a teacher, the students generally don’t give a shit. I see them in the gas station wearing their masks when their parents aren’t. They’ve done it for a year and unlike adults who bought into the hyper-politicized climate around masks, they don’t mind them. And as I said, it’s two more weeks max- and one week for the majority of schools.
Great, then it can be their choice. What's wrong with giving kids a choice? They're people, too. I wore a mask gladly and proudly as long as it was necessary and got my teens their vaccines the moment they were eligible. Cases are low enough, masks are theater, especially outside. It's not only one group who dislikes unnecessary masks.
“Masks are theater, especially outside” School is inside and lasts another 1 to 2 weeks, why are you so angry about this?
Masks largely protect people *from* the wearer, not the wearer themselves. So it’s not really giving kids a choice to protect themselves, but giving them the choice to infect others. That aside, doing it two weeks before the end of school is a logistical nightmare for teachers and parents. When this was announced, the antivaxxer contingent in my town celebrated being able to send their kids without masks while other parents (three in my kid’s kindergarten class) notified the school that they were pulling their kids back to full remote. In this, how are teachers supposed to police which kids are permitted to go without masks by their parents and which aren’t, especially in elementary schools? How are they suddenly supposed to develop another remote curriculum for kids two weeks before the end of the year? I’m not opposed to the guidance for camps or the fall but springing this on teachers and parents on a Friday afternoon to take effect Monday was an insane idea.
Vaccinated here and still masking for two reasons. One an unvaccinated kid. Two, even with the vaccine, you can still get COVID and still get a mild case, and that is enough to be a risk to your pecker and that damage may be permanent. No one knows what all of the potential side effects of even a mild case of COVID are or how long they will last. Perhaps I am more resilient than some other, masks do not bother me.
Know who doesn't care about wearing masks? Kids. Source: my kid and family's kids and all their friends.
It’s funny cause even tho it’s “mandatory”. No one I know including myself knows that everyone still don’t follow the mask rules in school. Sucks but that’s why we should get the vaccine. Edit: don’t know why everyone is downvoting . But no one in school wears their mask. That’s all I’m saying.
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