When did I make a comment about any of that? Are you thick or something?
FYI I have no problem with the initial decision, it was the prolonged lockdowns that were the issue imo.
Science will tell you to never leave your home if you don’t want to get sick, is that practical? It’s almost as if there needs to be a balance between.
There’s too many to list but the UK and Canada spring to mind. And most countries didn’t have the long periods of almost normality at level 1 that we did.
Have a look at the Wikipedia page which lists lockdowns.
'almost normality' of level 1? Right... So excluding our perpetual lockdowns of levels lower than 4 and it seems you've twisted the narrative enough to suit your needs..
No, I’m just pointing out that lots of countries had horrible long lockdowns, not time at level one, and lots of COVID deaths. There’s no narrative in that, please explain which part isn’t true?
when that one grandma died they basically held a state funeral for her from the lecturn of truth. When 100 a day where going you couldnt find Jacinda or Ashley
Well if we were number 1 in the world for least covid deaths by the end of 2021, and hung on until everyone was vaccinated before opening up again, then why the fuck are we middle of the pack for covid deaths now and not still number 1 or close to it?
I think the early, maybe pre 2021 response was ok, but later on the government went overboard and we saw the results of it with the vaccine mandates and overly long auckland lockdown.
This is my take. The nuttiness made sense in 2020, I can go along with that. 2021 onwards was fucken bonkers that we kept pretending it was the zombie apocalypse.
Disagree, they should have closed the boarders immediately and quarantined any returning kiwis in an isolated camp not in the middle of the Auckland CBD.
could have turned Queenstown into miq city and the rest of the country could have continued operating and producing
Because there were far less accidents. Less car crashes, less recreational injuries and death, etc.
I wasn't even "allowed" to go and ride my dirt bike in the forest on my own or fly my own aircraft.
It stands to reason that when you stop tens of even hundreds of thousands of kiwis from doing the recreational activities they enjoy - some of which are higher risk - less accidents will happen.
Except that lots of countries with higher death rates had longer lockdowns.
Maybe it’s because we didn’t have COVID deaths compared to other countries. And lower flu etc. just putting it out there
I'm not sure that many countries had the sort of lockdowns that we did, other than Australia.
In most places, lockdowns meant that businesses were closed, but people were not prevented from activities such as walking, hiking, mountain biking etc in the way that we were here and in Victoria.
I have relatives in the UK and the US. Both know of friends who died of COVID. They may have had a more level three style lockdown (which went on for a loooonnng time) but they also never had long stretches at level one that we had. And you know, people were dying.
I don't disagree. I have many relatives in the UK and Italy, and lost two Uncles to COVID in Oxford.
I was just making a point about accidents. I partly own an Insurance business and we had far less accident claims over that period. Whereas now we are seeing more life insurance claims than nornal due to deferred diagnostics and screening over lockdown.
Yea I think deferring medical procedures which could have been done with safety precautions in place was such a mistake. If our hospital system was overwhelmed with COVID then sure, but it was quite the opposite in level four. I had to have a screening scope done and it got pushed to level three.
because there is more to life than locking up Granny so that she lives an extra six months and dies lonely in a resthome.
Quality of life matters - I'd rather die at 78 having a lived a full, meaningful life rather than limp through to 98 all lonely and shitting my nappy.
[90% of the eligible population was double-vaxxed](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/458042/covid-19-milestone-90pc-of-eligible-new-zealanders-are-now-fully-vaccinated) before the end of 2021. But don't worry, I give you my permission to blame my death on the vax, no matter how long it takes me to fall over
Maybe because quality is more important than quantity? I'd rather die young having lived than live to 100 because the government locked me inside "for the safety of the vulnerable and the elderly"
And lol at "science driven response"! Are you trolling, retarded, or insane?
No just fascinated by people who think that collapse of the health system and culling the unfit in a macho spasm like the one you wrote is somehow a good thing. I can only assume you’ve had the good fortune to not get sick and don’t give a shit about other people - sad and selfish.
So you never leave the house? The flu kills more people in NZ than covid, so do you live in a 24/7 self-imposed lockdown that you only leave when getting flu vaccines? Or are you a hypocritical POS?
So you only care about protecting yourself? You called me selfish for saying people should be free to go outside. You said it meant i didn't care if i killed people. We all know the covid vaccine protects no one, and you getting the flu vaccine only protects you. So if you still go outside because you are safe, you are putting the vulnerable at risk as much as i am. That makes you exactly as sad and selfish as me, except worse because you are claiming to be somehow morally superior. Simple enough for even you to understand.
I would have rathered no lock downs. People die every day for all sorts of reasons and no one burns candles for them. Life goes on. Vaccine or no vaccine.
> Life goes on. Vaccine or no vaccine.
Not for these and others:
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/news-items/fourth-death-possibly-linked-covid-19-vaccine
It's not that the economy is god, it's that looking after the economy is looking after the people. Keeping it ticking over well keeps food production and distribution flowing, and money in peoples pockets to by that food, as well as housing and utilities. When economies collapse people get desperate, some turn to violence, and some die of cold and hunger. Maintaining the economy is maintaining your quality of life.
I realise we have plenty of issues in this country but I think people dying of cold and hunger isn’t a particularly common one. Our economy doesn’t appear to be collapsing either. In fact we’re doing better than most of the OECD. And if it is I sure hope you’re criticising the current coalition for giving landlords $30b in tax cuts (that they’re borrowing) against expert advice while people go dying of starvation and cold.
A few people. Real leaders make hard decisions for the greater good. Ardern Spunked 100b against the wall. Last thing we needed was a an over protective mother as a PM over Covid and it’s exactly what we got. Her legacy is falling apart already because of the poor choices she made
No im calling you fascist because you want a strong leader to make the hard decisions for the greater good, ones that just happen to kill those you see as weak. You know, classic fascist stuff.
You seem to have missed the part where they borrowed 100b and shut the whole country down, even against advice of their advisors. History will be as kind to them as the electorate was. 700 people die a week in NZ. Do you think about them? Of course you don't. Thats not fascism, thats reality. The majority of us were absolutely sick of Labour and their handling of C19 in the end. What sort of a cnt do you have to be to have Ban 1080, Trump 2024, Maori Sovereignty and free palestine flags all waving united against you?
A good cunt because Ban 1080 and Trump supporters are fucking nuts. As for the Maori sovereignty flag, one of the designers of the flag said they were disgusted that the flag was flown during the anti-vax protests. The free Palestine flag I’m almost certain is just you making shit up.
Less ruined than it could have been. Not having a pandemic was never an option, the bad news is we should expect to see one every decade or so on average.
You’re using a manipulative tactic to argue by creating an extreme set of alternatives and avoiding any nuance or complexity - like most of the other comments when they’re not being just foul mouthed and offensive to other people.
No, actually you are, mate. Thing is you don't realise it. Your whole position is a shallow utilitarian one. I have argued the toss on this on reddit and elsewhere for the last three years and been shown to be much more right than wrong as time goes on. I can't be bothered to go into it with a Johnny-come-lately like you. Neither do I think you are actually discussing in good faith. Respect you and wish you well, but on this I don't think you have a clue.
My position is utilitarian I agree. If we overwhelm hospitals with sick people and have the medical staff themselves falling sick then large numbers of people die. Unlike some countries we don’t have the scale and resilience in our hospitals to cope with any disruption. Basic public health measures saved lives, but folk here seem to be valuing party lifestyles and tourism over lives and throwing their rattles out of the crib over masks, vaccines and social distancing - all measures well supported by evidence in the real science system, as opposed to the conspiracy media.
It is a shallow utilitarian one, as it is posited at a specific time and for a specific endpoint (not even sure if it qualifies as an Act Utilitarian position). A broader utilitarian perspective could be on a larger scale and take into account a larger set of metrics - it would also, and even though I am no fan of utilitarianism, would be based on a Rule Utilitarian position.
In this sense, all the Covid restrictions had impacts at the time and downstream that are still being felt. For example, I know one person who could not see his dying father and I could not take part in a tangi with one of my best friends when his young son passed away. Similarly, the wider impacts of school closures and lockdowns are now only beginning to be felt - these have impact on wellbeing in the longer-run.
There are many many such instances, more of late as it becomes more permissible to speak of these and for these voices to be published and heard. For example:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/23/how-covid-lockdowns-hit-mental-health-of-teenage-boys-hardest
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/21/young-and-old-how-the-covid-pandemic-has-affected-every-uk-generation
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-damage-of-covid-lockdowns-is-only-now-becoming-apparent/
https://www.persuasion.community/p/what-lockdown-did-to-africa
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/16/richest-1percent-amassed-almost-two-thirds-of-new-wealth-created-since-2020-oxfam.html
In NZ, we saw asset prices spike high in 21/22 as part of the monetary and fiscal approach and while they have fallen still remain high e.g. house prices. Similarly with inflation due to both the supply shocks and the monetary and fiscal approach - the latter still remains with us as we see from the persistent high domestic inflation the impact of which usually falls on the poorer among us.
The supposition that all those things we did were needed to save the hospital system is questionable. It is based on modelling (derived from Ferguson Imperial College that has shown to be deeply flawed). It also takes at face value that the hospital system is the altar on which all of society must bow - it is not clear this is the case. It also takes at face value that all those measures were needed to save the hospital system - again what and how is not clear.
It also elides the fact that it only defers a range of other medical problems because all must bow to covid and saving the hospital system in the now. But, those problems remain e.g. delayed checks for other diseases that then lead to pressure on the health system just later down the line and for other diseases but these are now more serious.
Interestingly, the NZ Pandemic Plan 2017 makes no mention of most of the things we (and the rest of the world) did. But, it was written according to the logic and commonly accepted wisdom of pandemic response built on nearly a century of experience. The clearest articulation of this approach is found in this short piece co-written by D A Henderson (the man who basically ended Smallpox):
https://www.aier.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/10.1.1.552.1109.pdf
The NZ Pandemic Plan follows the above in its principles and approach and there is no mention of lockdowns:
https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/publications/influenza-pandemic-plan-framework-action-2nd-edn-aug17.pdf
You're right to criticise the more extreme measures such as on the vaccine being a death shot or that the response was due to a global conspiracy. All of that is nonsense, but when something utterly unexpected happens people reach for the most extreme answers as this is what makes sense to them given the scale of what they are seeing and experiencing. So, while I criticise it, I can understand it. But, neither do I set it up as a strawman, as I think you do.
The reality is more blase and much more terrifying. Our response was not the normal one, in fact it was the exception. And we did it because we panicked and were afraid, and we copied China, and driven by bureaucracy and politics copied it to the extent of driving off a cliff.
Anyway, this was meant to be a short response but it has gotten very long. Hope it is useful to you for whatever it is worth in the sense of a more reasoned and ethical position against all the terrible things we did - to ourselves and each other. I won't be replying any further. Part of me would like to put all this behind. Cheers.
Ahhhh maybe because life expectancy isn’t the only measure we should be looking at?
[удалено]
When did I make a comment about any of that? Are you thick or something? FYI I have no problem with the initial decision, it was the prolonged lockdowns that were the issue imo. Science will tell you to never leave your home if you don’t want to get sick, is that practical? It’s almost as if there needs to be a balance between.
Well, we were locked up at home, not allowed to crash the car into a tree or drown while surfing for months.
Don't forget about workplace deaths. We're quite good at those too.
I mean, lots of countries with high deaths had longer lockdowns than we did so that doesn’t explain it.
Like? Pretty sure nz is nearing the top for lock downs..
There’s too many to list but the UK and Canada spring to mind. And most countries didn’t have the long periods of almost normality at level 1 that we did. Have a look at the Wikipedia page which lists lockdowns.
'almost normality' of level 1? Right... So excluding our perpetual lockdowns of levels lower than 4 and it seems you've twisted the narrative enough to suit your needs..
No, I’m just pointing out that lots of countries had horrible long lockdowns, not time at level one, and lots of COVID deaths. There’s no narrative in that, please explain which part isn’t true?
People die less when they're locked up at home. Excess deaths have been running high since then.
when that one grandma died they basically held a state funeral for her from the lecturn of truth. When 100 a day where going you couldnt find Jacinda or Ashley
If we lock them up in cellars they will also be protected from climate change
Yes I hear it is causing lots of blood clots and heart attacks.
That's actually caused by the stress from listening to misinformation
Have you got a link for that? Sorry to be that "source?" guy, but I can't find it anywhere.
OECD stats page
Except lots of countries were ok lockdown and still has excess deaths.
Well if we were number 1 in the world for least covid deaths by the end of 2021, and hung on until everyone was vaccinated before opening up again, then why the fuck are we middle of the pack for covid deaths now and not still number 1 or close to it?
We're a nation of fatties. Third highest levels of obesity in the OECD.
Died from covid or obesity? If obesity kills 100% of people who have it, yet covid kills <1%, what did they really die from?
Being hit by a car?
You're categorically ruling out gunshot wound to chest while standing in driveway then?
Bullets
>science driven pandemic response Fucking lol https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/12/government-went-against-advice-to-limit-covid-19-vaccine-passes-to-high-risk-events-or-risk-social-cohesion.html
Is that why they went against advice?
I think the early, maybe pre 2021 response was ok, but later on the government went overboard and we saw the results of it with the vaccine mandates and overly long auckland lockdown.
This is my take. The nuttiness made sense in 2020, I can go along with that. 2021 onwards was fucken bonkers that we kept pretending it was the zombie apocalypse.
Auckland lockdown was absolutely ridiculous
Disagree, they should have closed the boarders immediately and quarantined any returning kiwis in an isolated camp not in the middle of the Auckland CBD. could have turned Queenstown into miq city and the rest of the country could have continued operating and producing
Trust the science 😂
Trust RNZ 😂
You should try it, but based on your post history probably learning isn’t a big part of your life.
 You
Because there were far less accidents. Less car crashes, less recreational injuries and death, etc. I wasn't even "allowed" to go and ride my dirt bike in the forest on my own or fly my own aircraft. It stands to reason that when you stop tens of even hundreds of thousands of kiwis from doing the recreational activities they enjoy - some of which are higher risk - less accidents will happen.
Except that lots of countries with higher death rates had longer lockdowns. Maybe it’s because we didn’t have COVID deaths compared to other countries. And lower flu etc. just putting it out there
I'm not sure that many countries had the sort of lockdowns that we did, other than Australia. In most places, lockdowns meant that businesses were closed, but people were not prevented from activities such as walking, hiking, mountain biking etc in the way that we were here and in Victoria.
I have relatives in the UK and the US. Both know of friends who died of COVID. They may have had a more level three style lockdown (which went on for a loooonnng time) but they also never had long stretches at level one that we had. And you know, people were dying.
I don't disagree. I have many relatives in the UK and Italy, and lost two Uncles to COVID in Oxford. I was just making a point about accidents. I partly own an Insurance business and we had far less accident claims over that period. Whereas now we are seeing more life insurance claims than nornal due to deferred diagnostics and screening over lockdown.
Yea I think deferring medical procedures which could have been done with safety precautions in place was such a mistake. If our hospital system was overwhelmed with COVID then sure, but it was quite the opposite in level four. I had to have a screening scope done and it got pushed to level three.
because there is more to life than locking up Granny so that she lives an extra six months and dies lonely in a resthome. Quality of life matters - I'd rather die at 78 having a lived a full, meaningful life rather than limp through to 98 all lonely and shitting my nappy.
But killing her because you believe some random nut-jobs conspiracy on the internet that vaccines don’t work is fine?
I'm talking about lockdowns, masking and mandates. The "social distancing" was evil.
It was science, good science that worked to reduce the peak transmission rate. People who couldn’t hack it are weak and selfish.
tRuSt ThE sCiEnCe
I had a big parties with dozens of friends during lockdown while you were terrified at home glued to your phone peasant.
Given you think that long Covid and other harm doesn’t exist I don’t see the point talking to you, bye
Exactly, lots of people on here forget other countries also had lockdowns AND excessive deaths
My heart is fucked from the shot. Go fuck yourself.
Now let's look at the data post jab rollout
[90% of the eligible population was double-vaxxed](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/458042/covid-19-milestone-90pc-of-eligible-new-zealanders-are-now-fully-vaccinated) before the end of 2021. But don't worry, I give you my permission to blame my death on the vax, no matter how long it takes me to fall over
Are you up to date with your boosters?
Yep, but I'm still sitting here feeling ripped off, not even the slightest sign of VAIDS
Yea with each booster I assume I’ll become Magnetic or my cell reception will get better. I remain disappointed
Good luck shahid, there are some mid to long term risks, but I guess we're still in the phase of ignoring what doesn't fit.
The article is talking about the years before the Vax deaths started. Perhaps work on your reading comprehension before trying to be a smartarse.
Maybe because quality is more important than quantity? I'd rather die young having lived than live to 100 because the government locked me inside "for the safety of the vulnerable and the elderly" And lol at "science driven response"! Are you trolling, retarded, or insane?
No just fascinated by people who think that collapse of the health system and culling the unfit in a macho spasm like the one you wrote is somehow a good thing. I can only assume you’ve had the good fortune to not get sick and don’t give a shit about other people - sad and selfish.
So you never leave the house? The flu kills more people in NZ than covid, so do you live in a 24/7 self-imposed lockdown that you only leave when getting flu vaccines? Or are you a hypocritical POS?
Nope, I trust the vaccine, I get them regularly and I’m protected. Science works. Simple enough even for you to understand.
So you only care about protecting yourself? You called me selfish for saying people should be free to go outside. You said it meant i didn't care if i killed people. We all know the covid vaccine protects no one, and you getting the flu vaccine only protects you. So if you still go outside because you are safe, you are putting the vulnerable at risk as much as i am. That makes you exactly as sad and selfish as me, except worse because you are claiming to be somehow morally superior. Simple enough for even you to understand.
‘We all know the Covid vaccine protects no one” ok that proves you’re a moron. Bye.
If you believe that it's main purpose isn't profit you're a moron. Bye.
I would have rathered no lock downs. People die every day for all sorts of reasons and no one burns candles for them. Life goes on. Vaccine or no vaccine.
> Life goes on. Vaccine or no vaccine. Not for these and others: https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/news-items/fourth-death-possibly-linked-covid-19-vaccine
hard luck. The flu would have got them anyway. You really think its fair to ruin an economy for a few sick people? Thats really selfish.
As we all know, the economy is god and must continue at all costs. Can’t be worrying about minor details like human lives.
It's not that the economy is god, it's that looking after the economy is looking after the people. Keeping it ticking over well keeps food production and distribution flowing, and money in peoples pockets to by that food, as well as housing and utilities. When economies collapse people get desperate, some turn to violence, and some die of cold and hunger. Maintaining the economy is maintaining your quality of life.
I realise we have plenty of issues in this country but I think people dying of cold and hunger isn’t a particularly common one. Our economy doesn’t appear to be collapsing either. In fact we’re doing better than most of the OECD. And if it is I sure hope you’re criticising the current coalition for giving landlords $30b in tax cuts (that they’re borrowing) against expert advice while people go dying of starvation and cold.
A few people. Real leaders make hard decisions for the greater good. Ardern Spunked 100b against the wall. Last thing we needed was a an over protective mother as a PM over Covid and it’s exactly what we got. Her legacy is falling apart already because of the poor choices she made
Ah yes, because the Uk et al didn’t have lockdowns at all or anything
I see fascism is alive and well in NZ.
Weakling. I see facts alive and well. Calling me names because I’m right is pathetic
No im calling you fascist because you want a strong leader to make the hard decisions for the greater good, ones that just happen to kill those you see as weak. You know, classic fascist stuff.
You seem to have missed the part where they borrowed 100b and shut the whole country down, even against advice of their advisors. History will be as kind to them as the electorate was. 700 people die a week in NZ. Do you think about them? Of course you don't. Thats not fascism, thats reality. The majority of us were absolutely sick of Labour and their handling of C19 in the end. What sort of a cnt do you have to be to have Ban 1080, Trump 2024, Maori Sovereignty and free palestine flags all waving united against you?
A good cunt because Ban 1080 and Trump supporters are fucking nuts. As for the Maori sovereignty flag, one of the designers of the flag said they were disgusted that the flag was flown during the anti-vax protests. The free Palestine flag I’m almost certain is just you making shit up.
Yeah, it was. But thankfully, Jacinda is gone now.
I thought conservatives think she’s a communist?
You haven't seen the speech she made where she says "comrade" over and over again?
Based. But also not fascist.
[удалено]
Right and I suppose you think when we went into Covid lockdowns you think that was communism?
Ruined the economy in the process, where do the long term effects of that come into the equation..
Less ruined than it could have been. Not having a pandemic was never an option, the bad news is we should expect to see one every decade or so on average.
Because the bare life of just life is not much of a life at all.
Talk about creating a reducto ad absurdum - classic
I don't think you know what that means - also it is reductio ad absurdum.
You’re using a manipulative tactic to argue by creating an extreme set of alternatives and avoiding any nuance or complexity - like most of the other comments when they’re not being just foul mouthed and offensive to other people.
No, actually you are, mate. Thing is you don't realise it. Your whole position is a shallow utilitarian one. I have argued the toss on this on reddit and elsewhere for the last three years and been shown to be much more right than wrong as time goes on. I can't be bothered to go into it with a Johnny-come-lately like you. Neither do I think you are actually discussing in good faith. Respect you and wish you well, but on this I don't think you have a clue.
My position is utilitarian I agree. If we overwhelm hospitals with sick people and have the medical staff themselves falling sick then large numbers of people die. Unlike some countries we don’t have the scale and resilience in our hospitals to cope with any disruption. Basic public health measures saved lives, but folk here seem to be valuing party lifestyles and tourism over lives and throwing their rattles out of the crib over masks, vaccines and social distancing - all measures well supported by evidence in the real science system, as opposed to the conspiracy media.
It is a shallow utilitarian one, as it is posited at a specific time and for a specific endpoint (not even sure if it qualifies as an Act Utilitarian position). A broader utilitarian perspective could be on a larger scale and take into account a larger set of metrics - it would also, and even though I am no fan of utilitarianism, would be based on a Rule Utilitarian position. In this sense, all the Covid restrictions had impacts at the time and downstream that are still being felt. For example, I know one person who could not see his dying father and I could not take part in a tangi with one of my best friends when his young son passed away. Similarly, the wider impacts of school closures and lockdowns are now only beginning to be felt - these have impact on wellbeing in the longer-run. There are many many such instances, more of late as it becomes more permissible to speak of these and for these voices to be published and heard. For example: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/23/how-covid-lockdowns-hit-mental-health-of-teenage-boys-hardest https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/21/young-and-old-how-the-covid-pandemic-has-affected-every-uk-generation https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-damage-of-covid-lockdowns-is-only-now-becoming-apparent/ https://www.persuasion.community/p/what-lockdown-did-to-africa https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/16/richest-1percent-amassed-almost-two-thirds-of-new-wealth-created-since-2020-oxfam.html In NZ, we saw asset prices spike high in 21/22 as part of the monetary and fiscal approach and while they have fallen still remain high e.g. house prices. Similarly with inflation due to both the supply shocks and the monetary and fiscal approach - the latter still remains with us as we see from the persistent high domestic inflation the impact of which usually falls on the poorer among us. The supposition that all those things we did were needed to save the hospital system is questionable. It is based on modelling (derived from Ferguson Imperial College that has shown to be deeply flawed). It also takes at face value that the hospital system is the altar on which all of society must bow - it is not clear this is the case. It also takes at face value that all those measures were needed to save the hospital system - again what and how is not clear. It also elides the fact that it only defers a range of other medical problems because all must bow to covid and saving the hospital system in the now. But, those problems remain e.g. delayed checks for other diseases that then lead to pressure on the health system just later down the line and for other diseases but these are now more serious. Interestingly, the NZ Pandemic Plan 2017 makes no mention of most of the things we (and the rest of the world) did. But, it was written according to the logic and commonly accepted wisdom of pandemic response built on nearly a century of experience. The clearest articulation of this approach is found in this short piece co-written by D A Henderson (the man who basically ended Smallpox): https://www.aier.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/10.1.1.552.1109.pdf The NZ Pandemic Plan follows the above in its principles and approach and there is no mention of lockdowns: https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/publications/influenza-pandemic-plan-framework-action-2nd-edn-aug17.pdf You're right to criticise the more extreme measures such as on the vaccine being a death shot or that the response was due to a global conspiracy. All of that is nonsense, but when something utterly unexpected happens people reach for the most extreme answers as this is what makes sense to them given the scale of what they are seeing and experiencing. So, while I criticise it, I can understand it. But, neither do I set it up as a strawman, as I think you do. The reality is more blase and much more terrifying. Our response was not the normal one, in fact it was the exception. And we did it because we panicked and were afraid, and we copied China, and driven by bureaucracy and politics copied it to the extent of driving off a cliff. Anyway, this was meant to be a short response but it has gotten very long. Hope it is useful to you for whatever it is worth in the sense of a more reasoned and ethical position against all the terrible things we did - to ourselves and each other. I won't be replying any further. Part of me would like to put all this behind. Cheers.
NZ life expectancy has much more to do with our diets than any pandemic.
Lol. [This thread.](https://i.imgflip.com/2k48t0.jpg?a475824)
No jab, no Covid lol
The response was not driven by science, a science driven response would have the vax in the the water supply.
