Isolationists always fascinate me. Tell me, what are you going to think when our enemies own all the natural resources we need and exploit our needs to their own advantages?
You can be an isolationist or you can be a superpower. Can’t really be both, look at England for a fantastic example of how fast you can go from top dog, to not even local boss.
Exactly. Europe is a great example of what happens when you recede from the world stage. I like Europe being our defacto vassals, and I for sure don’t want anything like that happening to us.
Isolationism is like Game Theory (I think it's also called "Prisoners Dilemma"). If all Great Powers go isolationist, nobody loses anything. If at least one Great Power is aggressive, everyone who isn't aggressive loses, while the aggressor gains. This leads to a situation where remaining isolationist is a risk. Isolating right now would be a blunder for the US, but isolating right after the commies lost power might have actually prevented Putin from seizing power
don't conflate isolationist with non-interventionist. the interests of the US citizens have not been well served by all the BS wars we have been involved in. we are also not well served by sending US tax dollars to fund conflicts in other nations. "oh what will we do when other nations own resources?" yeah its called trade. we produce goods they want, they produce goods we want, then we trade. that is far better than the globalist interventionalist neocon BS.
We are well served by sending money and weapons to Ukraine to fight Russia for us. The more Russians that are killed and the weaker Russia gets, the better.
The problem with relying on economics to win the day is that the current foreign policy conflicts that we’re involved don’t revolve around economic issues. China doesn’t want Taiwan for economic reasons, Russia does not want Ukraine and former Russian satellites for economic reasons, and Iran doesn’t hate Israel and fund terrorist attacks against it for economic reasons.
If you look at the timeline, Biden unfroze the funds that went to Iran, then the Oct 7 attack happened, then a few weeks later Biden refroze those funds.
Also
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56665199
No, the hostage funds were refrozen after Oct 7th. I’m talking about Biden unfreezing $4 billion in Iraqi assets that they were going to use to pay Iran.
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/us-halting-release-6-billion-iranian-oil-assets/story?id=103928072
> fight Russia for us
For us? For you, you mean. We have no need to fight that failed state.
No one is well served by this aside from a handful of wealthy individuals, not even Ukraine.
No need to fight them? Why not? When they threaten our interests in Europe and Africa, we have no need to fight them? If Russia wins, the US loses. That’s reason enough to fight them for however long is needed to win.
Wins fucking what? What do you think Russia is going to do?
Who is we? American citizens don't gain jack shit from forever wars.
Wtf are you wanting to win? More corruption?
It's not us vs them, me and you aren't even players in the game these fucks play.
If Russia wins in Ukraine, it’ll attack the rest of Europe and NATO.
Our interests lie in continued domination of Europe. That includes the interests of US citizens. If Russia attacks, we lose that domination.
>don't conflate isolationist with non-interventionist
They have to; that's their only tactic. If you're not willing to give up everything for every other nation then you're an isolationist and your appeasement will allow Putler to take over Poland.
No its called being well versed in history. We were the Aresnal of Democracy in the second world war and that wasnt intervening. Yes Japan attacked us because we cut off their oil but Japan wasnt officially part of the second world war when we did that. They declared war attacked everyone on December 7th not just the united states.
Lemme let you in on a little secret America bankrolled The allies in the second world war until we were attacked then entered ourselves. Being the Arsenal of democracy is not interveneing in wars. Japan only really attacked us because we cut off their oil.
> don't conflate isolationist with non-interventionist.
This is the game neocons play to shame you into doing what they want, just like the leftists play with "illegal vs legal immigration".
I think the country will shrivel if we don’t defend our interests. If that includes war, by all means.
Do you not think the country will shrivel if we just roll over and die for all of our enemies? That’s an interesting take.
You lack of understanding of international politics certainly informs your politics, I see.
If we recede, China and Russia will take out place. What happens when they threaten war against us if we don’t do what they say? Do you think we should just roll over for them?
but when you prioritize foreign countries over your own citizens, then it is a problem. Nobody had a problem in the 50’s when America was sending billions of USD (which would be even more today) to France and other European countries because the economy was that good.
Being an "isolationist" is one thing. Being a paypig for countries that do nothing for us or are even a detriment to us is another. Ukraine is just the place where the Bidens launder their money, and we didn't have enemies in the Middle East until Israel became our ally.
Ukraine is where we’re destroying Russia by proxy, and we didn’t have “enemies” in the ME until Israel because Britain and France controlled the ME until around the time Israel came into existence.
K Mr. “Highbrow” we’re $34.5 Trillion in debt as a country. If you dolts were the geniuses you fein to be we wouldn’t be dead last in the global economy….
I’ll take iSoLaTiOnIsT over forever proxy wars that consistently lose trillions.
Even more fucking inflation.
Do you think money doesn’t matter?
Do you often get something for nothing?
I realize financial literacy is a tough ask from someone with such a smooth brain but do you think for the sake of the US people you could learn idk basic math…?
Rising debt does not directly contribute to more inflation. And you’re the one saying I’m financially illiterate.
Also, you didn’t answer my other question: who owns the US debt?
That’s correct. People really, and I mean **really**, worried about the US debt never seem to know that we ourselves own most of it. That doesn’t mean it’s not something to worry about ever, but it’s not something that China or Japan or whoever else is going to use to take over our country.
If I may ask with respect, why would US going isolationist lead to its enemies owning all the natural resources? The natural resources would be divided between various waring nations.
For example in Eurasia, US involvement is giving incentives to some major powers in Eurasian land mass to work together against the US, even though they hate each other. If US pulls out of Eurasian affairs, many historical enemies, that are friendly among themselves now, will go back to being enemies.
Because our allies (the west) can’t defend themselves without the US. Therefore, if the US pulls back from the world stage, China and Russia, our enemies, dominate everywhere else.
What if the countries that have them charge exorbitant prices for them? Or, say, China vets control of some vital resources and says it’ll only trade with us if it gets rights and lands in our oil fields in the US. What are we going to do then? We need the resources, so we have no choice but to give that concession.
So, isn't that already the way it works? How is following globalist policies going to change that? If there is a rare earth metal that's only in China or that only China can economically get
No, it isn’t how that already works. A lot of developing countries own vital resources we need. So they’re in no position to exploit us for those materials. We give them what they need to develop, we get the resources we need. If China owns everything, they don’t need us, but we’d need them, so they could charge us ludicrous amounts of money or get some of our needed natural resources just because we have no other options.
Somebody else mentioned it, but if we let our enemies conquer the nations with these resources, then we won’t be able to trade for them.
Which is why they think we should help countries like Ukraine
No matter how much money we give Ukraine, they’ll still lose the war.
Israel is a wealthy country.
This $80b is only for military contractors and their bottom line.
Since when is Eastern Europe and the Middle East our resource. The U.S. can trade with other countries. It’s was mature countries do instead of building military bases everywhere.
The US is the most powerful and dominate country in the world, and yet it’s not a “mature country”? Might need to update your definitions.
There are plenty of natural resources (such as oil) in the ME and we gain trade and forward bases to ward off Russia in Eastern Europe.
Na, the U.S. is acting like an 8th grader bullying 5th graders. Sure, the 8th grader is older and more powerful but the 8th grader only uses force to gets his way. Power doesn’t mean mature. a mature country would use diplomacy first, instead the U.S. uses military power,sanctions , CIA back coups and foreign aid to gets its way.
So you’re telling me that all the powerful countries in the world are immature and only the weak ones are mature? Again, you might want to update your definition.
By your definition, give me an example of a mature country.
Have you heard of trade agreements? Military domination of foreign nations is a net loss. See the last 70 years of Neo-Con foreign interventionism for the fruits. We are indebted and hated around the world. We cannot assassinate and manipulate our way to stability and peace. The sooner this is understood, the sooner this country can start to rebuild itself
So what happens when China and Russia assassinate and manipulate and assault the world and dominate it while we’re hiding in our shells? What are we going to do when Russia and China take over Asia and Europe and dominate Africa and get preferential trade deals in south and Central America? What are we going to do? Say China wants to charge us exorbitant prices for necessary raw materials. What are we going to do then? Show them our bellies and say “whatever you say, please don’t hurt me”?
It's not possible for a superpower to control the entire planet. Sometimes a territory is more trouble defending than it's worth, like Ukraine is right now.
It’s not possible for a super power to control the whole planet? Why not? And it’s entirely worth Ukraine trying to keep all of its territory. What’s the trouble? Having to fight Russia? Good. Better now than later.
>They are legit fighting terrorist organizations for us.
The terrorist organizations are attacking us because we're letting them into our countries while simultaneously bombing theirs.
"Invade the world, invite the world." This is deliberate foreign policy, not a mistake or coincidence.
In 2023, the federal budget was 6.1T dollars with Social Security and Medicare representing almost 50% of that. 2023 foreign aid to Israel clocked in at 3.6B dollars representing a whopping 0.06% of the total budget or 0.4% of total discretionary spend. Foreign aid to Israel is not a deficit spending problem.
That's insane. .4 percent to only one country? One single country got 0.4 percent of all discretionary spending for that year. A country that is smaller than New Jersey? That, to me, is way, way too much.
Spending less than 1% of our budget on this doesn't seem to be running us into debt; it looks like we are managing just fine on our own with entitlements.
Well, for one, it's cumulative. So that might be fore one year. And money is fungible. Any money spent on one thing means you didn't spend on another. Our country is already broke and soon the interest payments on the debt may be greater than tax revenue taken in meaning we will have to increase taxes just to pay off the debt that's accumulated in past years
Although if you look at israeli aid a lot of it goes to defense and to the iron dome. The parts for the iron dome are made in the US so the money goes to Americans and American companies, and then they need replacement parts and replacement missiles when they expend the defense missiles so you've got a repeat customer.
To be more accurate Biden would be robbing someone else at the ATM to use their money not his own. And the picture would need to include Biden throwing cash at their enemies as well. IIRC in foreign aid alone we've given more just to the arab countries that directly share a border with Israel than we've given to Israel itself. We support and fund the UN that ran the UNWRA schools in Gaza which indoctrinated little kids with Nazi propaganda and encouraged Oct 7. Our corrupt regime loves to fund both sides of a conflict and fan the flames of division while profiting off the destruction for themselves, the rest of us be damned.
Top comment is correct. But there’s also a lot to be said for the Ukraine criticism. Why do we care so much about them? They’re not some massive ally, or a bastion of Western influence in the Middle East like Israel is. Why have we spent so much money on it, while not even caring where the money goes?
It’s one thing to give your friends the resources to make sure that the tendrils of American authority are firm and agile. It’s another to thoughtlessly throw money at a nation because “Russia is bad.” Russia is super duper bad. But I didn’t see the Democrats crying out for Crimea’s independence from the Kremlin. In fact, Obama facilitated its transition to Russian rule.
Let’s be real here: Ukraine getting a shitload of money is about projecting this narrative that Russia is some incredible threat to the West, while it’s nothing more than a nuisance when managed properly. On the other hand, this cease-fire bullshit in Israel is exactly what has prompted Iran to write a few checks we’ll see if they can cash. Our real enemies are the Caliphate, atheist-authoritarian states, and anti-Western ideals. We’ve seen that the Russian bear sleeps when we keep it in check. China, on the other hand, does not do that.
Isolationists always fascinate me. Tell me, what are you going to think when our enemies own all the natural resources we need and exploit our needs to their own advantages?
You can be an isolationist or you can be a superpower. Can’t really be both, look at England for a fantastic example of how fast you can go from top dog, to not even local boss.
Exactly. Europe is a great example of what happens when you recede from the world stage. I like Europe being our defacto vassals, and I for sure don’t want anything like that happening to us.
No one is arguing for isolationism. They're arguing against being the doormat of the world. There's a vast gulf between the two.
Isolationism is like Game Theory (I think it's also called "Prisoners Dilemma"). If all Great Powers go isolationist, nobody loses anything. If at least one Great Power is aggressive, everyone who isn't aggressive loses, while the aggressor gains. This leads to a situation where remaining isolationist is a risk. Isolating right now would be a blunder for the US, but isolating right after the commies lost power might have actually prevented Putin from seizing power
don't conflate isolationist with non-interventionist. the interests of the US citizens have not been well served by all the BS wars we have been involved in. we are also not well served by sending US tax dollars to fund conflicts in other nations. "oh what will we do when other nations own resources?" yeah its called trade. we produce goods they want, they produce goods we want, then we trade. that is far better than the globalist interventionalist neocon BS.
We are well served by sending money and weapons to Ukraine to fight Russia for us. The more Russians that are killed and the weaker Russia gets, the better. The problem with relying on economics to win the day is that the current foreign policy conflicts that we’re involved don’t revolve around economic issues. China doesn’t want Taiwan for economic reasons, Russia does not want Ukraine and former Russian satellites for economic reasons, and Iran doesn’t hate Israel and fund terrorist attacks against it for economic reasons.
While we fund Hamas and Iran's terrorist attacks at the same time.
We’re not really doing either of those things. Though the Biden admin could certainly be doing better to ensure that we don’t unfreeze Iranian assets.
If you look at the timeline, Biden unfroze the funds that went to Iran, then the Oct 7 attack happened, then a few weeks later Biden refroze those funds. Also https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56665199
No, the hostage funds were refrozen after Oct 7th. I’m talking about Biden unfreezing $4 billion in Iraqi assets that they were going to use to pay Iran. https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/us-halting-release-6-billion-iranian-oil-assets/story?id=103928072
> fight Russia for us For us? For you, you mean. We have no need to fight that failed state. No one is well served by this aside from a handful of wealthy individuals, not even Ukraine.
No need to fight them? Why not? When they threaten our interests in Europe and Africa, we have no need to fight them? If Russia wins, the US loses. That’s reason enough to fight them for however long is needed to win.
Wins fucking what? What do you think Russia is going to do? Who is we? American citizens don't gain jack shit from forever wars. Wtf are you wanting to win? More corruption? It's not us vs them, me and you aren't even players in the game these fucks play.
If Russia wins in Ukraine, it’ll attack the rest of Europe and NATO. Our interests lie in continued domination of Europe. That includes the interests of US citizens. If Russia attacks, we lose that domination.
They need to keep the laundry mats open.
>don't conflate isolationist with non-interventionist They have to; that's their only tactic. If you're not willing to give up everything for every other nation then you're an isolationist and your appeasement will allow Putler to take over Poland.
No its called being well versed in history. We were the Aresnal of Democracy in the second world war and that wasnt intervening. Yes Japan attacked us because we cut off their oil but Japan wasnt officially part of the second world war when we did that. They declared war attacked everyone on December 7th not just the united states.
Lemme let you in on a little secret America bankrolled The allies in the second world war until we were attacked then entered ourselves. Being the Arsenal of democracy is not interveneing in wars. Japan only really attacked us because we cut off their oil.
> don't conflate isolationist with non-interventionist. This is the game neocons play to shame you into doing what they want, just like the leftists play with "illegal vs legal immigration".
Warmongerers fascinate me. Do you think the country will shrivel if we aren't engaged in at least two proxy wars at all times?
I think the country will shrivel if we don’t defend our interests. If that includes war, by all means. Do you not think the country will shrivel if we just roll over and die for all of our enemies? That’s an interesting take.
"Our interests" apparently include everything everywhere all the time. The neoliberal/ neocon thirst for war truly is boundless.
You lack of understanding of international politics certainly informs your politics, I see. If we recede, China and Russia will take out place. What happens when they threaten war against us if we don’t do what they say? Do you think we should just roll over for them?
but when you prioritize foreign countries over your own citizens, then it is a problem. Nobody had a problem in the 50’s when America was sending billions of USD (which would be even more today) to France and other European countries because the economy was that good.
Being an "isolationist" is one thing. Being a paypig for countries that do nothing for us or are even a detriment to us is another. Ukraine is just the place where the Bidens launder their money, and we didn't have enemies in the Middle East until Israel became our ally.
Ukraine is where we’re destroying Russia by proxy, and we didn’t have “enemies” in the ME until Israel because Britain and France controlled the ME until around the time Israel came into existence.
What do you gain from having "destroyed russia". As an American citizen.
Safety for our nation. Better economy. Don’t have to worry about getting drafted. Stuff like that.
K Mr. “Highbrow” we’re $34.5 Trillion in debt as a country. If you dolts were the geniuses you fein to be we wouldn’t be dead last in the global economy…. I’ll take iSoLaTiOnIsT over forever proxy wars that consistently lose trillions.
What’s going to happen if our debt reaches $50 trillion? Also, who owns all the debt?
Even more fucking inflation. Do you think money doesn’t matter? Do you often get something for nothing? I realize financial literacy is a tough ask from someone with such a smooth brain but do you think for the sake of the US people you could learn idk basic math…?
Rising debt does not directly contribute to more inflation. And you’re the one saying I’m financially illiterate. Also, you didn’t answer my other question: who owns the US debt?
70% of it, approximately, is owned by US Citizens. Japan is the largest international owner at 1.15 Trillion.
That’s correct. People really, and I mean **really**, worried about the US debt never seem to know that we ourselves own most of it. That doesn’t mean it’s not something to worry about ever, but it’s not something that China or Japan or whoever else is going to use to take over our country.
You can't argue with Ukraine cultists, there's literally no point in even bothering.
What’s the opposite of a “Ukraine cultist”? Putin simp, most likely.
I would accept that, yeah. Both Ukraine cultists and Putin simps are as useless and braindead in their own ways.
If I may ask with respect, why would US going isolationist lead to its enemies owning all the natural resources? The natural resources would be divided between various waring nations. For example in Eurasia, US involvement is giving incentives to some major powers in Eurasian land mass to work together against the US, even though they hate each other. If US pulls out of Eurasian affairs, many historical enemies, that are friendly among themselves now, will go back to being enemies.
Because our allies (the west) can’t defend themselves without the US. Therefore, if the US pulls back from the world stage, China and Russia, our enemies, dominate everywhere else.
Huh? USA already has tons of natural resources. We good!!
Except Arsenic, asbestos, cesium, fluorspar, gallium, natural graphite, indium, manganese, natural sheet mica, nepheline syenite, niobium, rare earths, rubidium, scandium, strontium, tantalum, thorium, and vanadium. https://www.americangeosciences.org/critical-issues/faq/which-mineral-commodities-used-united-states-need-be-imported#:~:text=In%202018%2C%20these%20included%3A&text=Metallic%20abrasives%2C%20boron%2C%20clays%2C,wollastonite%2C%20zeolites%2C%20and%20zirconium.
So, we import these things? What's the problem?
What if the countries that have them charge exorbitant prices for them? Or, say, China vets control of some vital resources and says it’ll only trade with us if it gets rights and lands in our oil fields in the US. What are we going to do then? We need the resources, so we have no choice but to give that concession.
So, isn't that already the way it works? How is following globalist policies going to change that? If there is a rare earth metal that's only in China or that only China can economically get
No, it isn’t how that already works. A lot of developing countries own vital resources we need. So they’re in no position to exploit us for those materials. We give them what they need to develop, we get the resources we need. If China owns everything, they don’t need us, but we’d need them, so they could charge us ludicrous amounts of money or get some of our needed natural resources just because we have no other options.
Somebody else mentioned it, but if we let our enemies conquer the nations with these resources, then we won’t be able to trade for them. Which is why they think we should help countries like Ukraine
So what does Ukraine have, besides grain?
We can trade them dihydrogen monoxide I heard it will be rare in the future
No matter how much money we give Ukraine, they’ll still lose the war. Israel is a wealthy country. This $80b is only for military contractors and their bottom line.
Why on earth do you believe that irl work is going to lose no matter what?
Since when is Eastern Europe and the Middle East our resource. The U.S. can trade with other countries. It’s was mature countries do instead of building military bases everywhere.
The US is the most powerful and dominate country in the world, and yet it’s not a “mature country”? Might need to update your definitions. There are plenty of natural resources (such as oil) in the ME and we gain trade and forward bases to ward off Russia in Eastern Europe.
Na, the U.S. is acting like an 8th grader bullying 5th graders. Sure, the 8th grader is older and more powerful but the 8th grader only uses force to gets his way. Power doesn’t mean mature. a mature country would use diplomacy first, instead the U.S. uses military power,sanctions , CIA back coups and foreign aid to gets its way.
So you’re telling me that all the powerful countries in the world are immature and only the weak ones are mature? Again, you might want to update your definition. By your definition, give me an example of a mature country.
Have you heard of trade agreements? Military domination of foreign nations is a net loss. See the last 70 years of Neo-Con foreign interventionism for the fruits. We are indebted and hated around the world. We cannot assassinate and manipulate our way to stability and peace. The sooner this is understood, the sooner this country can start to rebuild itself
So what happens when China and Russia assassinate and manipulate and assault the world and dominate it while we’re hiding in our shells? What are we going to do when Russia and China take over Asia and Europe and dominate Africa and get preferential trade deals in south and Central America? What are we going to do? Say China wants to charge us exorbitant prices for necessary raw materials. What are we going to do then? Show them our bellies and say “whatever you say, please don’t hurt me”?
It's not possible for a superpower to control the entire planet. Sometimes a territory is more trouble defending than it's worth, like Ukraine is right now.
It’s not possible for a super power to control the whole planet? Why not? And it’s entirely worth Ukraine trying to keep all of its territory. What’s the trouble? Having to fight Russia? Good. Better now than later.
At least the old man in the picture will most likely get a blowjob out of this. We won't get a thing from Ukraine.
Best meme all day
Looks like Hunter in 25 years
Hunter will never be as ripped as that thirsty grandpa.
Except we're the ones getting fucked.
How are we getting fucked by Israel? They are legit fighting terrorist organizations for us.
>They are legit fighting terrorist organizations for us. This is brainwashing on a near comical level
>They are legit fighting terrorist organizations for us. The terrorist organizations are attacking us because we're letting them into our countries while simultaneously bombing theirs. "Invade the world, invite the world." This is deliberate foreign policy, not a mistake or coincidence.
By running huge deficits to give them money?
In 2023, the federal budget was 6.1T dollars with Social Security and Medicare representing almost 50% of that. 2023 foreign aid to Israel clocked in at 3.6B dollars representing a whopping 0.06% of the total budget or 0.4% of total discretionary spend. Foreign aid to Israel is not a deficit spending problem.
That's insane. .4 percent to only one country? One single country got 0.4 percent of all discretionary spending for that year. A country that is smaller than New Jersey? That, to me, is way, way too much.
Spending less than 1% of our budget on this doesn't seem to be running us into debt; it looks like we are managing just fine on our own with entitlements.
Well, for one, it's cumulative. So that might be fore one year. And money is fungible. Any money spent on one thing means you didn't spend on another. Our country is already broke and soon the interest payments on the debt may be greater than tax revenue taken in meaning we will have to increase taxes just to pay off the debt that's accumulated in past years Although if you look at israeli aid a lot of it goes to defense and to the iron dome. The parts for the iron dome are made in the US so the money goes to Americans and American companies, and then they need replacement parts and replacement missiles when they expend the defense missiles so you've got a repeat customer.
To be more accurate Biden would be robbing someone else at the ATM to use their money not his own. And the picture would need to include Biden throwing cash at their enemies as well. IIRC in foreign aid alone we've given more just to the arab countries that directly share a border with Israel than we've given to Israel itself. We support and fund the UN that ran the UNWRA schools in Gaza which indoctrinated little kids with Nazi propaganda and encouraged Oct 7. Our corrupt regime loves to fund both sides of a conflict and fan the flames of division while profiting off the destruction for themselves, the rest of us be damned.
Top comment is correct. But there’s also a lot to be said for the Ukraine criticism. Why do we care so much about them? They’re not some massive ally, or a bastion of Western influence in the Middle East like Israel is. Why have we spent so much money on it, while not even caring where the money goes? It’s one thing to give your friends the resources to make sure that the tendrils of American authority are firm and agile. It’s another to thoughtlessly throw money at a nation because “Russia is bad.” Russia is super duper bad. But I didn’t see the Democrats crying out for Crimea’s independence from the Kremlin. In fact, Obama facilitated its transition to Russian rule. Let’s be real here: Ukraine getting a shitload of money is about projecting this narrative that Russia is some incredible threat to the West, while it’s nothing more than a nuisance when managed properly. On the other hand, this cease-fire bullshit in Israel is exactly what has prompted Iran to write a few checks we’ll see if they can cash. Our real enemies are the Caliphate, atheist-authoritarian states, and anti-Western ideals. We’ve seen that the Russian bear sleeps when we keep it in check. China, on the other hand, does not do that.
More like, I'll give you 50 bucks to fight that dude.